Speaker 1: This is How Men Think with brooks Like and Gavin
Speaker 1: DeGraw and I heard radio podcast. Welcome to another episode
Speaker 1: of How Men Think. My name is brooks Like. And
Speaker 1: our buddy Gavin DeGraw, who you just heard in that
Speaker 1: awesome intro, is running late, probably finishing his steak and
Speaker 1: eggs downstairs, surprised at the bel Air Hotel here. So
Speaker 1: I am going to grant Mr Dmitri and Mr Rick
Speaker 1: co hosting privileges today. It's such and with that you
Speaker 1: get Gavin's share of the show as well. I have
Speaker 1: so many people to thank for this honor. Brooks Who
Speaker 1: would you like to start with? I was just kidding.
Speaker 1: I don't really have a lot of people, so we
Speaker 1: did his three dollars and thirty three cents. Yeah you do, buddy,
Speaker 1: So I'm in on that. Gavin, you have due to
Speaker 1: your lateness, you have forfeited your share of today's show,
Speaker 1: and Rick and Dmitri, you guys get to pick it up.
Speaker 1: I'd rather have his steak and eggs that he's gonna think.
Speaker 1: He's a smart one. He's downstairs eating and we're recording
Speaker 1: a podcast. But I'm super excited to today's podcast. We
Speaker 1: have a very special guest here with us today that
Speaker 1: we'll get to in a second. But today's podcast is
Speaker 1: about something that I don't think we go into enough.
Speaker 1: It's a very hot topic amongst our listeners. It's something
Speaker 1: we get reached out to, probably as much as anything
Speaker 1: to discuss. And today we want to go into the
Speaker 1: discussion of men's mental health depression, UH, suicide prevention, all
Speaker 1: the things that men go through that are very rarely
Speaker 1: discussed and are sort of taboo in society and culture,
Speaker 1: and men actually do not feel empowered or courageous enough
Speaker 1: to step up and share with people close to them.
Speaker 1: So that's the discussion today. It's gonna be a heavy,
Speaker 1: really deep, important conversation. UH. And Rick, we have one
Speaker 1: of your friends here who has an amazing story that
Speaker 1: she's I want to applaud her. Um, thank you. We
Speaker 1: have Kasher here with us who has an amazing story
Speaker 1: that that is filled with courage and she's going to
Speaker 1: share it to be a vessel of service to our community,
Speaker 1: to everybody listening at home. But Rick, I'll let you
Speaker 1: t up Kate here. Thank you Kate for coming in,
Speaker 1: you know, having me reaching out earlier. And it's been
Speaker 1: a long time since we've seen each other. And Kate
Speaker 1: and I grew up together in the mean streets in Newport,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad you both made it out. It was tough,
Speaker 1: it was tough, but we have been childhood friends since
Speaker 1: since kindergarten. Really, you know, yeah, so every class, every grade,
Speaker 1: every you know, you're a little bit more intelligent than
Speaker 1: I am. But um, it's been great to reconnect, you know,
Speaker 1: and thank you for reaching out to me, you know,
Speaker 1: since we started doing this podcast. And the topic today
Speaker 1: is that you're willing to share with us IS and
Speaker 1: coming on IS is very important, and so I think
Speaker 1: it's it's important that you, um, you know, I can
Speaker 1: share that with us. So thank you. Thank you for
Speaker 1: having me and being open to it. So the you
Speaker 1: are an avid listener of men, think I am. Yes,
Speaker 1: I love having listeners of the show on the show.
Speaker 1: That's the way anybody out there listening, be a listener
Speaker 1: if you're um. But so we want to dive into
Speaker 1: as much as possible. I want to be sensitive because
Speaker 1: even for us, this is a this is a big discussion,
Speaker 1: and knowing your story, having some background on your story,
Speaker 1: it's even hard in our position to ask these kinds
Speaker 1: of questions. I don't in any way want to offend you,
Speaker 1: but I want to serve our community and people that
Speaker 1: are maybe going through this in their lives as much
Speaker 1: as possible. So I'm an open buck. You can ask
Speaker 1: me anything you should. My defense mechanism is sarcasm, So
Speaker 1: if I throw out something, it's probably cause I'm starting
Speaker 1: to sweat or something mine is too. Um So, Kate,
Speaker 1: can you give us a little background? We want you
Speaker 1: to share your personal story about the conversation of men's
Speaker 1: mental health, depression, mental health issues, and an ultimately suicide
Speaker 1: and suicide prevention. You believe this topic is rarely discussed
Speaker 1: and it's sort of your mission to bring light to it.
Speaker 1: Can you share a little bit of your person story?
Speaker 1: Of course? So, um what, I am a survivor of
Speaker 1: suicide loss. That's sort of how we dub ourselves when
Speaker 1: we've lost someone to suicide, because it is really something
Speaker 1: that you do, in fact survive. It's a very difficult,
Speaker 1: different kind of death to um deal with. I was
Speaker 1: twenty eight years old when my husband took his life.
Speaker 1: Uh he was We were living in Colorado at the time.
Speaker 1: I was actually visiting my parents in Colorado, and he'd
Speaker 1: sort of gone silent for a few days, and I
Speaker 1: had a really bad gut feeling that something was going
Speaker 1: on and called a mutual friend and said, you know,
Speaker 1: take the high to Key and will you go check
Speaker 1: on him. And I got the phone call from the
Speaker 1: Sheriff's department about thirty minutes later, and he had uh
Speaker 1: utilized carbon monoxide and helium, which a lot of people
Speaker 1: don't realize that helium can be fatal. He'd clearly researched
Speaker 1: kind of the most peaceful ways to go and the
Speaker 1: easiest ways to do it that wouldn't be messy for
Speaker 1: anyone to have to clean up. And that was on
Speaker 1: May eighteen, UM that he that he died. They didn't
Speaker 1: find his body until the twenty I believe that he
Speaker 1: died the last time we spoke, which was on the eighteenth,
Speaker 1: and we had had a very difficult conversation. I think,
Speaker 1: like most people dealing with mental health and suicide ideation,
Speaker 1: it was a perfect storm. It was. He had been
Speaker 1: diagnosed by polar He was a sober alcoholic but had
Speaker 1: dealt with addiction. UM, he had a slew of business
Speaker 1: issues that were going on, and some legal problems that
Speaker 1: were affecting us financially, and I think he just got
Speaker 1: really scared, and I think the pain was just too
Speaker 1: much too to move on. And I think in his
Speaker 1: own way, he felt like he was really doing me
Speaker 1: a solid by leaving free, setting me free, thinking that
Speaker 1: all of those issues would disappear. Um. Obviously they don't.
Speaker 1: They sort of just start when that happens. But I think,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of people asking if it was
Speaker 1: a surprise, yes and no. I mean I don't think
Speaker 1: you ever really think that a loved one will kill themselves.
Speaker 1: But to say that there weren't signs would be completely lying,
Speaker 1: because there were numerous signs throughout our relationship. Can I
Speaker 1: can I ask this? Um, so you would just you
Speaker 1: just told us everything that was kind of going on
Speaker 1: in his life that probably caused Did he talk about
Speaker 1: that stuff or it was just stuff that you realized
Speaker 1: later or or noticed yourself, and then piece together that
Speaker 1: it had been so much weighing so much on him
Speaker 1: for the first several years of our relationship. He was
Speaker 1: very quiet, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you know,
Speaker 1: be a man, deal with it. And he hadn't yet
Speaker 1: been diagnosed with bipolar at that time, and he struggled
Speaker 1: with a lot of childhood trauma, which I think is
Speaker 1: very common in men who deal with depression anxiety issues.
Speaker 1: There's always some sort of background with that um but
Speaker 1: he didn't talk about a lot of it until he
Speaker 1: got sober, and he'd been sober for about a year
Speaker 1: and a half when he took his life. And I
Speaker 1: do think that with the gift of sobriety came really
Speaker 1: having to deal with all of the things that he'd
Speaker 1: shoved down for so many years. And I think that
Speaker 1: is also so many people that we lose to suicide,
Speaker 1: it's a surprise because we feel like, well, gosh, they
Speaker 1: were doing so well. I just saw them. They seemed
Speaker 1: like they were doing so much better. And we've learned
Speaker 1: I've learned through the research that I've done since two
Speaker 1: thousand two, when this became such a big part of
Speaker 1: my life, that when you're really struggling in that place
Speaker 1: of depression, or we're really struggling with that place of ideation,
Speaker 1: you often don't have the energy and the resolve to
Speaker 1: kind of do what you feel like you need to
Speaker 1: do to end your life. A lot of people the
Speaker 1: suicide comes on the upswing, they're starting to get clarity,
Speaker 1: they're starting to get kind of an a feeling of yeah,
Speaker 1: this is getting better, but I still remember how bad
Speaker 1: it was and I don't want to go back to
Speaker 1: that place. And so, you know, in terms of risk,
Speaker 1: I don't think just getting someone help and um feeling
Speaker 1: like oh now they're on medication, that doesn't necessarily take
Speaker 1: the risk away. Can I ask you one other question
Speaker 1: of what you touched on first when you started talking,
Speaker 1: are do you know of in relation to men or
Speaker 1: women that commit suicide due to mental health? Is there
Speaker 1: usually a connection between somebody that's bipolar, somebody that's substance
Speaker 1: abuse or high stress and anxiety from career? Are those
Speaker 1: usually connected to that? Or they are? So it was
Speaker 1: almost a perfect perfect storm, and they often say that
Speaker 1: it's a perfect coming together of it can be health issues,
Speaker 1: physical health issues, mental health issues, you know, untreated mental
Speaker 1: health issues. There have been statistics that say n of
Speaker 1: all suicides have a mental health component to UM diagnosed
Speaker 1: or undiagnosed UM and I tend to believe that's true.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a broad spectrum of what mental health
Speaker 1: issues can be. Can be anxiety it can be depression,
Speaker 1: it can be schizophrenia, it can be bipolar. Um, it
Speaker 1: can be addiction, it can be job stress, relationships, relationship stress. UM.
Speaker 1: You know, Greg and I were not in the greatest
Speaker 1: place when he died. We were dealing with a lot,
Speaker 1: and we were still newlyweds, so it was just a
Speaker 1: lot to be dealing with. And the last conversation we had,
Speaker 1: and it's the voice that's kind of on a play
Speaker 1: all my life, I had said to him. I said,
Speaker 1: you know, Greg, I love you and I have stuck
Speaker 1: with you through all of this and we are going
Speaker 1: to get through this. But I need you to make
Speaker 1: a choice. And the choice that I was talking about
Speaker 1: was he didn't like taking his medication. He was a
Speaker 1: very creative guy, web designer, did a lot of graphic design,
Speaker 1: and he felt like the medication dulled his creativity. And
Speaker 1: what I meant by make a choice was I want
Speaker 1: you to take your med and I want you to
Speaker 1: commit to your recovery. And he, obviously, in his place
Speaker 1: in his brain, took it as you need to make
Speaker 1: a choice to live or die, and that's what he did.
Speaker 1: He made that for him. He made that decision that
Speaker 1: night wow. Could I I just want to commend you already, Kate,
Speaker 1: for just being here and sharing that already. That is
Speaker 1: I can't think of something more deep and sensitive and
Speaker 1: vulnerable and real and emotional than that story, and you
Speaker 1: just sharing that, being in this room with us, sharing
Speaker 1: that for our listeners and for us to learn and
Speaker 1: grow from already. I just want to commend you and
Speaker 1: say thank you, thank you, thank you. Have you before
Speaker 1: prior and Dmitri touched on us a little bit, but
Speaker 1: prior to um, your husband committing suicide? Had he mentioned suicide,
Speaker 1: had he tried before? Had he he had had an
Speaker 1: attempt ten years before, okay, And he even at the
Speaker 1: time had sort of said, well, it was more of
Speaker 1: a you know, a mistake of mixing you know, drugs
Speaker 1: and alcohol. I didn't really mean to do it. And
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times we don't necessarily know
Speaker 1: if a suicide is actually a suicide. It could just
Speaker 1: be an addict finally taking that dose it's too much,
Speaker 1: or drinking too much. Um. But he had, you know,
Speaker 1: he was doing the things that you would think someone
Speaker 1: with a mental health condition would need to do, which
Speaker 1: is seeing a therapist. And he was when he was sober,
Speaker 1: he was going to meetings, and he was getting support
Speaker 1: from a sponsor UM. But again, I sometimes think I
Speaker 1: truly believe in suicide prevention, and what I when I
Speaker 1: talk about suicide prevention. I know we can save lives,
Speaker 1: but I also do know that there are just some
Speaker 1: people who the struggle is going to be so great
Speaker 1: for them throughout their life that I do think there
Speaker 1: are people that are harder to help. And that's a
Speaker 1: hard thing to say when you're talking about suicide prevention,
Speaker 1: because I want people to feel hopeful, but I also
Speaker 1: feel like for some people it is really difficult. And
Speaker 1: I I have talked to so many attempts survivors over
Speaker 1: the last decade, and every single one of them that
Speaker 1: I've talked to has said I didn't want to die.
Speaker 1: I wanted the pain to end. It's it's not so much.
Speaker 1: I mean, death, unfortunately is the lasting effect and what happens.
Speaker 1: But it's really just I don't want to stare down
Speaker 1: that dark tunnel anymore. I just I don't want to
Speaker 1: feel this way anymore. I don't want to feel like
Speaker 1: I'm a burden. I don't want to feel like I
Speaker 1: don't have a purpose, UM, and I do think that
Speaker 1: talking saves lives, which is why when I started listening
Speaker 1: to your podcast, and I very tentatively, you know, send
Speaker 1: a message to Rick and just said, hey, do you
Speaker 1: think you guys might want to talk about this sometime
Speaker 1: because we are losing so many men. I mean, I
Speaker 1: just feel like every day in the news you're seeing
Speaker 1: something else of a suicide of someone you know that's died, young, old, high, celebrity,
Speaker 1: you know, unknown, whatever it is. And these are all
Speaker 1: people that are in an intense amount of pain and
Speaker 1: what can we do to help that? And I think
Speaker 1: it's what is it two veterans a day, yes, commit suicide? Yes,
Speaker 1: So suicide is the tenth leading cause of death in
Speaker 1: the United States. UM. In two thousand, seventeen, thousand and
Speaker 1: seventy three Americans died by suicide one point four million attempted.
Speaker 1: Men die three and a half times more often than
Speaker 1: women die, and white males account for six of those deaths.
Speaker 1: So I've I've read it. I had a friend who
Speaker 1: actually was doing some stuff in this space and UM
Speaker 1: shared a thought that they're now starting to link men's
Speaker 1: inability to share their emotions with greater rate and suicide
Speaker 1: and greater rate in crime. I mean, I bet. I
Speaker 1: think anytime you keep something inside, you play out scenarios
Speaker 1: in your head, and you start speaking for other people,
Speaker 1: and then you feel like you feel like you're maybe
Speaker 1: you're the only one that's feeling this, and so then
Speaker 1: you keep it even further inside, and I think it
Speaker 1: just fessors and it starts boiling up. Right, gavre our
Speaker 1: good buddy Gavin Degras has made it into the studio here,
Speaker 1: can see you guys. Good morning. Um, heavy stuff it is, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's but it's necessary. Um, Kate, can I ask you
Speaker 1: a question? I mean, we have a long list of
Speaker 1: questions here. I have a quick question I want to
Speaker 1: ask Kate. Are there besides the not obvious signs of
Speaker 1: anxiety and bipolarism and stuff, are there other signs that
Speaker 1: are that are you don't see that that are out
Speaker 1: there like that you may have missed or they act
Speaker 1: in a certain way, or they're Yeah. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think some of the common ones are withdrawing from activities.
Speaker 1: You know, if you've got a guy that's always shown
Speaker 1: up for your softball league, but all of a sudden
Speaker 1: doesn't start showing up and doesn't really have a good
Speaker 1: reason why he's not showing up, or someone's giving away
Speaker 1: items that they really care about or selling things. Um,
Speaker 1: those are kind of the the ones you always see.
Speaker 1: But I really there's this misnomer that if you ask
Speaker 1: someone directly, hey, I'm worried about you, are you considering suicide?
Speaker 1: Like is that something you're thinking about? People think that
Speaker 1: that is going to put the idea in someone's head.
Speaker 1: They don't want to raise it. You're going to give them.
Speaker 1: You're going to give them the idea. And the reality
Speaker 1: is that we have shown over and over again that
Speaker 1: it's actually a helpful thing because it allows permission for
Speaker 1: someone to say I'm hurting, I'm really hurting, and I'm
Speaker 1: so glad you asked me that, and how can you
Speaker 1: walk me through this? I mean, that makes sense. I
Speaker 1: can't imagine that anybody would that would be able to
Speaker 1: do that, would not have thought of it, and then
Speaker 1: you'd plant it in their head. They're like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: that's a great you know, like that's what I need. Like,
Speaker 1: I think you're right, it's it's way better to you know,
Speaker 1: approach that and and risk them being offended that they
Speaker 1: you thought that than not. Well. I always say would
Speaker 1: you rather have a mad friend or would you rather
Speaker 1: have a dead friend? And I would always take a
Speaker 1: friend who's mad at me over a friend whose funeral
Speaker 1: I have to go to. So when we say, for
Speaker 1: ourselves or any of our listeners out there, if they
Speaker 1: have a friend like this, somebody that that is lost
Speaker 1: to despair, that we're really concerned about their something just
Speaker 1: energetically feels off about this person. Um, what can we
Speaker 1: do other than just saying that, um? Or are there
Speaker 1: any things that you didn't do that you're like, I
Speaker 1: wish I would have done this for my husband? Like
Speaker 1: is there anything that we can offer our community if
Speaker 1: they have somebody in mind that they want to help?
Speaker 1: I think being there and being there in a way
Speaker 1: that's that's solid, not just sending a text like, hey,
Speaker 1: do you need anything, because the problem is when you're
Speaker 1: really in that low place, hey, you don't know what
Speaker 1: you need and be you don't have the willpower to
Speaker 1: really ask for it. Um. So I think it's really
Speaker 1: showing up and just even sort of being that annoying
Speaker 1: person if you need to be that person where you're
Speaker 1: showing up in person, where you're inviting them to do things,
Speaker 1: you know, and even if they say no, you keep
Speaker 1: following up. If you ask the difficult question they say, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm really struggling, you hook them up with a crisis line.
Speaker 1: There's the crisis call line which is eight seven three
Speaker 1: even um. And if you're ever concerned about someone, you
Speaker 1: can call that line. That line is not just if
Speaker 1: you're actively suicidal. If you are concerned about someone, you
Speaker 1: can call that line to get resources. Like okay, so resources,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, So, what happens when you call
Speaker 1: that line? Like do they when you call? Um, there's
Speaker 1: train counselors and they if you are suicidal, they assess
Speaker 1: the risk, risk situation UM, and they will talk you through,
Speaker 1: you know, until you're either a feeling that they feel
Speaker 1: like they can let you off the phone because you're
Speaker 1: no longer. They will sometimes you know, UM trying if
Speaker 1: there's someone like with a firearm, they try to really
Speaker 1: work through that in a safe way. UM. And if
Speaker 1: you're just calling for someone, they will give you, you know,
Speaker 1: organizations that you can contact and make sure you're also
Speaker 1: getting the support that you need in dealing with that.
Speaker 1: If you don't want to talk to someone. You can
Speaker 1: text someone. There's a text line that's seven and you
Speaker 1: just text talk to seven four one seven four one.
Speaker 1: Teenagers really per for that mode for obvious reasons, because
Speaker 1: they're so addicted to their phones. Um, you know, and
Speaker 1: there's people have great things to say about the lines,
Speaker 1: and some people have horrible things to say about the lines.
Speaker 1: You know. The reality is our entire country needs a
Speaker 1: mental health overhaul. You know. It's a lot of people
Speaker 1: are afraid to call the line because they don't want
Speaker 1: to be put on a which is a mandatory hold
Speaker 1: in a psych word. And I understand those fears. But
Speaker 1: if you really do feel that that someone is in
Speaker 1: danger of harming themselves, um, you really do need to
Speaker 1: talk them to at least a mental health professional and
Speaker 1: e er something. And again, they might be mad at you,
Speaker 1: but I would rather have someone be mad at me
Speaker 1: and stop talking to me for a couple of weeks,
Speaker 1: then you know, having to contact family members and say
Speaker 1: that they're no longer here. I know. I actually know
Speaker 1: a few people that have taken their own lives, um,
Speaker 1: and it's seems the majority of them it was at
Speaker 1: a time where there was change coming and I think,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes people are excited that there was one
Speaker 1: in the final week of high school, there was one
Speaker 1: in the final week of college, and and then there
Speaker 1: was another. But I think that some people get excited
Speaker 1: for change, and I think some people are terrified of it,
Speaker 1: and I think they're feeling lonely, and I think they're
Speaker 1: feeling like everyone's gonna leave without me or whatever life
Speaker 1: is gonna go and I'm not. And so it's interesting
Speaker 1: that I think it's something to keep in mind that
Speaker 1: when when there's a transition like that or there's things
Speaker 1: it's maybe exciting for everybody, but you kind of got
Speaker 1: to keep your eye out for people that that you know.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying there was something we could have
Speaker 1: done or was it I just didn't see it, But
Speaker 1: you know that there's that loneliness factor and when people
Speaker 1: think they're going to be alone and they just they
Speaker 1: just go even further inside their own head. And it's like,
Speaker 1: that's a tough thing to to be excited for something.
Speaker 1: But I think we've got to be aware of of
Speaker 1: people that are, you know, afraid of life moving on
Speaker 1: without them, definitely, And I think for as wonderful as
Speaker 1: social media is I get to stay connected to friends
Speaker 1: that I don't get to see very often. Like Rick Um,
Speaker 1: it can be really hard for people that do struggle
Speaker 1: with mental illness because again it's the highlight reel notion.
Speaker 1: You know, everybody's posting the best things of their day.
Speaker 1: Very few people are really posting real things, and I
Speaker 1: only on post depressing stuff. So follow me in my
Speaker 1: car before I watch. But I think especially with with teenagers, yes,
Speaker 1: you know that that's one of the risk factors. With
Speaker 1: middle aged men, it's it's that pressure of I haven't
Speaker 1: achieved everything that I wanted to achieve, and I you know,
Speaker 1: or I can't pay for college, or I can't you know,
Speaker 1: it's the pressure. So much of it is either the
Speaker 1: financial pressure or like you said, those those transitions in
Speaker 1: life that are difficult for some people. I mean, not
Speaker 1: everybody has great family support. Not everybody has a really
Speaker 1: cool group of friends. Not everyone has guys they can
Speaker 1: enter with, you know, But truth be told, do you
Speaker 1: guys really talk deeply with each other? I mean, that's
Speaker 1: why we wanted to start of the show. Actually, when
Speaker 1: you leave and and nobody else is around, were always like, no,
Speaker 1: that's what we wanted to start the show about is
Speaker 1: because I don't believe I spent my whole life in
Speaker 1: locker rooms, and I don't believe men do share their
Speaker 1: emotions in their their feelings enough and in in my life,
Speaker 1: they're more likely to share deodorant. Yeah, he played hockey.
Speaker 1: And one of the episodes that I that sticks out
Speaker 1: in my mind is when you guys asked each other,
Speaker 1: like when the last time you cried was? And it
Speaker 1: was some some of you had a hard time really
Speaker 1: kind of coming to terms with, like when was that?
Speaker 1: And what was I feeling when that happened? Or And
Speaker 1: I just think, you know, so much of it is
Speaker 1: that men are raised to, you know, to suck it
Speaker 1: up and be a man and and you know, do
Speaker 1: manly things. And I think I've become This has obviously
Speaker 1: been a passion project of mine since I lost my husband.
Speaker 1: I'm remarried now, I have two sons, and this is
Speaker 1: very important to me now because I want my sons
Speaker 1: to grow up knowing that they can talk to me
Speaker 1: about anything, that if they're scared, they can come to me. Um.
Speaker 1: I don't want them to feel like they have to
Speaker 1: bottle things up. I mean, we are seeing suicide in
Speaker 1: children as young as eight. I mean that is nuts. O, Kate,
Speaker 1: Can I ask you how old are your boys are? Eight? How?
Speaker 1: How and at what age did you bring this up
Speaker 1: to them? There? Are they aware that you were previously married.
Speaker 1: The interesting thing is they've only just known for the
Speaker 1: last several months. It's always been in the back of
Speaker 1: my head, like, oh, we gotta tell them, we gotta
Speaker 1: what are we going to do? Because I write about
Speaker 1: it so often and you know they're using computers at school.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, man, if they google me their stuff,
Speaker 1: that's going to come up that there's going to be
Speaker 1: really surprised spy. And so I finally it's I had
Speaker 1: wanted to have a full sit down. My husband, UM,
Speaker 1: is an attorney, and was away at trial for three
Speaker 1: weeks UM, and I was doing one of my groups
Speaker 1: I facilitate I co facilitate Survivors Groups, which is an
Speaker 1: eight week program for people who have lost ones to
Speaker 1: suicide to kind of help them through that. And it
Speaker 1: was our last group. And the last group is really
Speaker 1: important because you need closure because so many people didn't
Speaker 1: have closure with the one that they lost. And my
Speaker 1: babysitter canceled, and I panicked because I thought, oh gosh,
Speaker 1: what am I going to do? And I called the
Speaker 1: director of the program and I said, hey, there's extra
Speaker 1: rooms in the building. Can I just bring the boys.
Speaker 1: I'll bring like electronic babysitters. I'll put the TV on,
Speaker 1: I'll do what they You know, they know it's important.
Speaker 1: And for whatever reason, I think because Daddy had been
Speaker 1: gone for three weeks already and they were upset. My
Speaker 1: one son had a full fledged meltdown about why why
Speaker 1: do we have to go? Why are these meetings so
Speaker 1: important to you? Why do you have to always help
Speaker 1: these people? And so I sat down and I said,
Speaker 1: you know what, guys, because mommy had a really really
Speaker 1: heavy loss when she was younger, and I'm trying to
Speaker 1: help people go through what I went through. And they
Speaker 1: said what? And I told them, and the again, it's humor.
Speaker 1: I think kids can handle a lot. But the funniest
Speaker 1: thing of the whole thing, so I said, you know,
Speaker 1: I was married. I was married to a man. His
Speaker 1: brain was really sick. He died. I didn't go into
Speaker 1: full details about anything, but my one son looked at
Speaker 1: me and he said, so you're telling me that if
Speaker 1: Greg didn't die, I would be stuck in the baby depot,
Speaker 1: like with no parents, just out there floating around waiting
Speaker 1: for someone to pick me up. And I was like,
Speaker 1: I guess, okay, that's exactly what I'm that's if that's
Speaker 1: what we're talking about now, that's exactly right. And I did.
Speaker 1: I packed him up. They went, They were fine, but
Speaker 1: they know and have known for a long time that
Speaker 1: this is really important to me. How did you bring
Speaker 1: it up to your now husband and how long into
Speaker 1: seeing each other. The interesting thing is that it's amazing
Speaker 1: how the world works. Um. I was reproductive law attorney
Speaker 1: for many years, so infertility was my specialty. I helped
Speaker 1: people have kids. And one of the agencies that I
Speaker 1: worked for, I became very friendly with one of the
Speaker 1: case coordinators and she knew that I had lost my
Speaker 1: husband to suicide and had just moved back to California
Speaker 1: to kind of restart my life. And her brother died
Speaker 1: by suicide. And she called me and she said, you're
Speaker 1: the only person I know that's been through this, and
Speaker 1: what do we do? And it turns out I started,
Speaker 1: you know, talking to her about what it was, you know,
Speaker 1: what it was, and we became closer through that experience.
Speaker 1: And she had a brother, another brother, her other older
Speaker 1: brother who she said, I just would love for you
Speaker 1: to meet my brother. And her brother is now my husband.
Speaker 1: So he has lost he has lost family members to suicide.
Speaker 1: And it's the other reason why I want my children
Speaker 1: to feel safe with their mental health and to understand
Speaker 1: that this notion of physical health mental health. To me,
Speaker 1: health is health. Mental health affects physical, physical effects mental
Speaker 1: it's all one thing. If you're letting one thing slide,
Speaker 1: it's all going to slide at some point. And I
Speaker 1: want my kids to know because the reality is we've
Speaker 1: got some stuff in our family history. You know, I've
Speaker 1: got alcoholic I'm Scottish and Irish. I mean, we've got
Speaker 1: boozers on my side. We've got alcoholism. Um, he has
Speaker 1: suicide on his There's several people in his family that
Speaker 1: have died by suicide. And you know, some of it
Speaker 1: was sort of explained, some of it wasn't. And you know,
Speaker 1: I want my kids. They're at risk. I mean, they
Speaker 1: have shown that there is a biological component to mental
Speaker 1: health issues, and men who have children later in life,
Speaker 1: they've also shown have a higher risk of having a
Speaker 1: schizophrenic or bipolar child, And it used to never be
Speaker 1: that men. You know, women kind of got this bad
Speaker 1: end of the stick, like, oh, your eggs are old,
Speaker 1: you're going to have kids with birth defects. And now
Speaker 1: they're showing that men who have kids later in life
Speaker 1: also have some risks for other things being passed on.
Speaker 1: Do you know an age number on that? Because I'm
Speaker 1: thirty six right now, I don't have kids, but want
Speaker 1: to have kids, do you know us specific sort of generally,
Speaker 1: and just to let you know, do not panic. It's
Speaker 1: not like a huge person of my kids. It's they say,
Speaker 1: men over forty. Yeah, what's what's the best way to
Speaker 1: approach this conversation with kids? Do you talk about that
Speaker 1: at all? I mean, sadly there are more groups now
Speaker 1: for children because we are losing so many parents and
Speaker 1: things and friends to suicide. But I think brain health
Speaker 1: is just one of the best ways to sort of
Speaker 1: approach it. That just the same way we take care
Speaker 1: of our hearts, the same way we take care of
Speaker 1: our you know, we have to take care of our brains.
Speaker 1: And what does that mean? That means you know, eating well,
Speaker 1: exercising and talking about our feelings, not holding things in.
Speaker 1: And you know, I've always been pretty open with everything,
Speaker 1: but I mean, I had a really rough of high
Speaker 1: school was not the greatest for me. And the reason
Speaker 1: I was asking because I coach high school water Poland.
Speaker 1: So we have started a new program at our school
Speaker 1: where we're just with our team, where we're starting to
Speaker 1: engage these other aspects of their lives. That's amazing. Instead
Speaker 1: of just being a coach and running practice and everything.
Speaker 1: It's like we're going to talk to the police department
Speaker 1: about safety, and we're going to parties and what happens,
Speaker 1: and totally we bring in more of it, like a
Speaker 1: you know, health through the school, but it's it's a
Speaker 1: health person. So we're talking about our feelings and how
Speaker 1: does that work? And you cann't go see somebody besides
Speaker 1: coming to your coach or your parents or whatever. So
Speaker 1: I just want to see the other ways. And yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think too with with family. You know, the
Speaker 1: hardest thing is, you know, so many kids have things
Speaker 1: going on that they just don't want to talk about
Speaker 1: and you can kind of see it in pinpoint it,
Speaker 1: but you don't know exactly what it is, and no
Speaker 1: one wants to get involved, and no one wants to
Speaker 1: have to you know, one wants to talk to their parents. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know exactly. So having those other outlets I think
Speaker 1: is really right, having outlets, having and I think there's
Speaker 1: always I feel like there's always one parent. It's funny.
Speaker 1: I could never really talk to my mom. I felt
Speaker 1: like about certain things, but like all of you guys
Speaker 1: always came to talk to my mom, Like never you
Speaker 1: lost your virginity or did anything like you were those details.
Speaker 1: I lost my virginity somebody else. It was someone else,
Speaker 1: and you probably know who. Rick was just bragging. He
Speaker 1: was on everybody. I remember last glorious. I just remember
Speaker 1: coming home and be like what because my mom would say,
Speaker 1: we're having a private conversation. Just go upstairs for a while.
Speaker 1: It's like okay. But I didn't feel like I could
Speaker 1: talk to my mom necessarily neither. And I feel like
Speaker 1: that's also in kind of like the generation to hopefully
Speaker 1: this generation of kids is yes in us. You know,
Speaker 1: having a platform to share these ideas and share these
Speaker 1: concerns is well. And I think as much as higher
Speaker 1: profile men can come forward, you know, it was huge
Speaker 1: when Michael Phelps came forward to talk about these depression
Speaker 1: and anxiety and how he helped dealt with that, and
Speaker 1: I think a lot of we were finally okay with that.
Speaker 1: I think we have, you know, a lot of football
Speaker 1: players that are talking about the head injuries and how
Speaker 1: that's affected their lives and talking about em early retirement
Speaker 1: and what that's done to them. Um So I think
Speaker 1: the more we can talk, you know, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of men Robin Williams, Anthony Bourdain, I mean when
Speaker 1: the news first came out, we didn't know a lot.
Speaker 1: Now we know certain things that Robin Williams was dealing with,
Speaker 1: But like Anthony Bourdain, I think so many people just
Speaker 1: looked at him as like this just lover of life
Speaker 1: and food and all the and then to all of
Speaker 1: a sudden have him gone. I think a lot of people,
Speaker 1: men included, took a step back and said, oh boy,
Speaker 1: what do I okay? How am I going to deal
Speaker 1: with this? And what does this mean to me? And
Speaker 1: you know, in Newport, all over the world gets to
Speaker 1: do it for someone else is saying to go these
Speaker 1: amazing blazes. It's so easy to look at that and think,
Speaker 1: but he's got it all. He's got nothing worried about
Speaker 1: exact people, and that's looking at the specs on paper.
Speaker 1: It's such a fallacy, and I think that's what we
Speaker 1: have to remember, that this is equal opportunity. It happens
Speaker 1: to the rich, it happens to the poor, it happens
Speaker 1: to the healthy, it happens to those with families those
Speaker 1: without families, and we need to just open up the
Speaker 1: conversation and make it be okay. It's okay to talk,
Speaker 1: you know, it's okay not to be okay. There's a
Speaker 1: great cafe in Chicago called Sip of Hope and they
Speaker 1: have trained mental health baristas and you get to go
Speaker 1: in there and have a coffee and talk. And their
Speaker 1: motto is it's okay not to be okay, because we
Speaker 1: live in a society where everything has to be and
Speaker 1: everything's got to be perfect. Now with social media it's
Speaker 1: even more right. But it's okay not to be okay.
Speaker 1: It's okay to be scared that you're not gonna be
Speaker 1: able to provide for your family, or if you're losing
Speaker 1: a job or whatever it is. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: not to get all religious on me, but I think
Speaker 1: that that's sort of uh fundamentally, that was probably more
Speaker 1: the purpose of church than we that we pay attention
Speaker 1: now to and modern society as people are not necessarily
Speaker 1: showing up at churches or temples, and it's become less
Speaker 1: of a religious Western civilization than we've had in the past.
Speaker 1: People aren't necessarily showing up to a place of worship
Speaker 1: where they're told to look into their souls and think
Speaker 1: about their their day to day lives and their relationships
Speaker 1: way that they used to on a Sunday or a
Speaker 1: Saturday at least once a week in their community before
Speaker 1: social version of forced socialization. We've drifted away from that
Speaker 1: modern culture. Now we're talking about this in sort of
Speaker 1: this other version of this other setting, and we're creating
Speaker 1: these other settings that essentially are in some senses not
Speaker 1: necessarily religious, but are serving a similar purpose of looking
Speaker 1: into your soul, looking into your happiness, applying these certain
Speaker 1: versions of are we healthy, are we not healthy? How
Speaker 1: do we fix the things that are wrong in our lives?
Speaker 1: And it's ironic, but um but that essentially it's making
Speaker 1: me see what the purpose of some of these social
Speaker 1: groups were, these religious, uh sort of formats. It's amazing
Speaker 1: when I'm sitting here thinking about in my life, Dimitri,
Speaker 1: you touched on it. You had people that you know
Speaker 1: or knew that have committed suicide. Off the top of
Speaker 1: my head, I've thought of two. Um. One was our
Speaker 1: team doctor that looked after my health for years, one
Speaker 1: of the happiest guys I knew. He was as responsible
Speaker 1: for my health as anybody I knew and saw him
Speaker 1: after every single game, and all of a sudden found
Speaker 1: out he had committed suicide. And I just didn't know.
Speaker 1: I was so. I was like, he seemed like the
Speaker 1: happiest guy ever, and I felt so bad. I was like,
Speaker 1: I wish I could have helped. I wish I would have,
Speaker 1: but how I just I just didn't see it. As
Speaker 1: you said, Dmitri, like sometimes you just don't see it.
Speaker 1: You think somebody has it all together. There was another
Speaker 1: guy I skated with, played in the NHL professional hockey player,
Speaker 1: made millions of dollars, committed suicide. Um So it's I
Speaker 1: bet in everybody listening they have somebody in their circle
Speaker 1: that he struggles with mental health or has committed suicide.
Speaker 1: It's that prominent I think in society today. And then
Speaker 1: also I want to share one of my best friends
Speaker 1: in the entire world. I've known him my entire life. Um.
Speaker 1: We grew up very right across the street from each other,
Speaker 1: so I've known him for thirty six years. Um. Tyrrell
Speaker 1: Lamentine is his name. One of the funniest people I've
Speaker 1: ever met in the world. And he's been on an
Speaker 1: amazing journey. And it's just started sharing his journey with
Speaker 1: mental health. And he's done two articles on LinkedIn that
Speaker 1: I want to share. It's uh if you are listening
Speaker 1: and want to read these, thy Lamentine on LinkedIn and
Speaker 1: his first article was mental health and my career in
Speaker 1: the oil and gas and he talks about his issues,
Speaker 1: talks about how when he thought he made this much money,
Speaker 1: he'd be he'd be happier, and he'd be and he
Speaker 1: talks about his issues, and then he talks about how
Speaker 1: once he laid his weapons down and opened up and
Speaker 1: shared his vulnerability, people that he looked up to, bosses,
Speaker 1: people way up in the in the chain reached out
Speaker 1: to him and said, I'm struggling. Thank you so much,
Speaker 1: can you help me? This is wow. I'm so glad
Speaker 1: you shared this. Like so, I encourage anybody in our
Speaker 1: community to to have the courage. And that's what I
Speaker 1: always challenge him with him, like if if it doesn't
Speaker 1: exist around where we live, you have to create it.
Speaker 1: And he started that conversation. And so if you want
Speaker 1: to read his articles, he has mental Health in my
Speaker 1: Career in Oil and Gas on LinkedIn and he also
Speaker 1: did a follow up called mental Health Tip The Things
Speaker 1: I wished I'd known in the beginning, So you can
Speaker 1: will share these in the show notes. But these are
Speaker 1: two amazing articles. And I love Tyrrell's mission. And it's
Speaker 1: amazing when you open up for anybody out there struggling.
Speaker 1: If you open up about and that's what this show is.
Speaker 1: Open up about your struggles, our insecurities, things that we
Speaker 1: are having a problem or issue within our life. There
Speaker 1: is a listening and compassionate ear and somebody willing to
Speaker 1: lie like people will line up to help you, you know.
Speaker 1: And so Tyrelle, I love your mission. Brother, He's a
Speaker 1: brother to me. I love his mission. I want to
Speaker 1: share that and go check out his articles on mental health. Um,
Speaker 1: have you guys experienced, Gavin and Rick, have you guys
Speaker 1: experienced anything like this in your life? You know, anybody
Speaker 1: I have. Yeah, I've known I've known more than one
Speaker 1: person who's who's committed two side yeah and uh, and
Speaker 1: you know they're there. I'm thinking of two right now.
Speaker 1: They couldn't have been more opposite types of people, you know.
Speaker 1: One of them was very, very from like an orthodox background,
Speaker 1: and one was you know, ah, sort of like backwoods
Speaker 1: you know, uh, carpenter. And they're totally two different type
Speaker 1: some people. But one of them had a substance abuse
Speaker 1: problem and one didn't, you know, one didn't have seemed
Speaker 1: to have any problems, you know, and was one of
Speaker 1: those people who, you know, if I was if I
Speaker 1: was walking home from from town, like with my bag,
Speaker 1: you know, after like ball, after practice or something like that,
Speaker 1: and the bus would drop you off in town, you
Speaker 1: have to walk that last that last mile or so,
Speaker 1: if they ever saw you on the on the road walking,
Speaker 1: let me give you a ride, you know, and I think,
Speaker 1: hey happened, you know, I'll give you. I'd be like,
Speaker 1: no, no no, I don't want to convince it. No, please,
Speaker 1: let me have to give you a ride, you know.
Speaker 1: And so you didn't see those things coming. I think
Speaker 1: it's crazy. I think that's it. I think depression doesn't,
Speaker 1: and mental health doesn't attack one type of person. No
Speaker 1: one's immune to it. So I mean, it's just as
Speaker 1: you're saying, they were completely opposite people, totally two different
Speaker 1: types of people. And it's not necessarily a money thing,
Speaker 1: and it's not necessarily a substance abuse thing, but it
Speaker 1: could be certain people. It's that's part of what's you know,
Speaker 1: an obstacle for them. It's just so unbelievable. It's such
Speaker 1: the human mind is so so complex, and your emotion,
Speaker 1: the range of emotions every every single person is capable
Speaker 1: of traveling throughout the course of one single day is
Speaker 1: so vast, you know, so so you can never really
Speaker 1: you never know what to expect, but it is it
Speaker 1: is good to know that there's people you can go to,
Speaker 1: or at least people who aren't necessarily even professionals. You
Speaker 1: can always pick up the phone and call buddy or
Speaker 1: or if you sense that someone's having a hard time,
Speaker 1: called and say, hey, man, what are you doing? You're right, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm coming by. I got coffee. Yeah, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, like something some interaction, and sometimes it's good
Speaker 1: to be a little bit of a nudge if you're
Speaker 1: dealing with somebody who's really super bummed out. You know
Speaker 1: I've been bummed out before and had a buddy. Did
Speaker 1: you show up? Like yo, man, what's up? Got your beer? Man?
Speaker 1: Let's uh, let's go for a walk. You know we're
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, man, I'm working. I'm working now, and
Speaker 1: they get out of the house. Bro, you can't sit
Speaker 1: in the house for three days in a row working,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Sometimes I act, I act
Speaker 1: bumbed down in case someone bring the beer, um and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh man, what I actually needed to get
Speaker 1: out of the house. So for our for our listeners,
Speaker 1: Kate that want to get in touch with you because
Speaker 1: you do so much work in the space and thank
Speaker 1: you for your story. Again, we need to wrap here,
Speaker 1: but I want to um ask where can our listeners
Speaker 1: find you? Should they want to reach out to you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can find me on Instagram and Facebook all under
Speaker 1: kate lyon Osher that's my full name, and then I
Speaker 1: have a blog kate lyon Osher dot com. Okay, lion
Speaker 1: lion l y o n y o n okay, So
Speaker 1: kate lyon Osher spell it wrong? You know, it's like lion,
Speaker 1: It's like lion estates from that, I know we need
Speaker 1: to wrap, but I just wanted to say first, vulnerability
Speaker 1: is a superpower and that sounds so cheesy, but it
Speaker 1: really is. If you can open yourself up, people will
Speaker 1: come to you because they will connect with you. And also,
Speaker 1: just to end, check on the people that are always smiling,
Speaker 1: that are always joking, that always seem to have it
Speaker 1: put together, because those are the ones that are oftentimes
Speaker 1: struggling the most. I just want to make sure she's
Speaker 1: glaring in all of the straight up dimitri yet. Thank
Speaker 1: you Kate for coming on. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: having me. It's been amazing. Thank you so much, and
Speaker 1: for everybody listening. We'll put all of these resources in
Speaker 1: the show notes. Um, we'll let you know all of
Speaker 1: the areas you can reach out. There are so many resources.
Speaker 1: Please do not feel like you're alone. Call your mom,
Speaker 1: your dad. I'm telling you, people will line up to
Speaker 1: help you if you're struggling. And if you have somebody
Speaker 1: in your life that you are just even energetically feeling
Speaker 1: weird about. Please, as Gav said, bring him a coffee
Speaker 1: or beer something, pull him aside, say hey, I just
Speaker 1: want to talk with you. This's just wrap if you're good,
Speaker 1: you're good great. I just want you to know I
Speaker 1: care about you, I love you, UM, and I just
Speaker 1: want to be here if there's anything you to share.
Speaker 1: So thank you everybody that listen to Thank you. This
Speaker 1: was an amazing episode. I feel like we have to
Speaker 1: do a follow up to this. I think this is
Speaker 1: such I think there's still so much more to unpack
Speaker 1: in this UM and reach out to us with your
Speaker 1: questions or comments, anything. Anybody is certainly struggling, please reach
Speaker 1: out with us and we will do our best to
Speaker 1: help you. So until next week, take care of one another,
Speaker 1: love one another, awesome, and we'll see you back here.