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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones. Hi, Kate, Hey, Paul, you ready

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Speaker 1: for part two of our story.

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Speaker 2: I have been waiting all week for this one.

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Speaker 1: It's a complicated story with lots of theories, more theories

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Speaker 1: than forensics. I love both, but I like when we

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Speaker 1: dig into theories too and try to figure out sequencing.

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Speaker 1: I know we don't always have the most information, but

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Speaker 1: I think it's a great talk.

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Speaker 2: We always have well, but it's all part of just

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Speaker 2: the process of solving crimes. Is you have to develop theories,

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Speaker 2: and you constantly are tweaking a theory or completely throwing

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Speaker 2: them out. As evidence comes in, forensics comes in, new

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Speaker 2: theories arise at better fit, you know. So that's just

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Speaker 2: part of the process.

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Speaker 1: What's hard about these old cases is, you know, I

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Speaker 1: will tell you that police went ahead and release them.

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Speaker 1: They didn't have enough evidence. There's not enough information, and

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Speaker 1: we just have to sort of trust the police for

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine to know what they're doing. And I

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Speaker 1: realize that when we have a case that is more

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Speaker 1: ambiguous and we aren't one hundred percent sure what ends

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Speaker 1: up happening here, that certainly the police might not know

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Speaker 1: what they're doing and let us suspect go that we

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Speaker 1: would have never let go, and probably a guilty person.

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Speaker 1: But we do the best we can based on the

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Speaker 1: information we have, and sometimes we get some really great

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Speaker 1: investigators and medical examiners, and sometimes we don't.

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Speaker 2: It's a crapshoot, no for sure, you know, And that's

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Speaker 2: sometimes we just have to trust the information that we have.

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Speaker 2: But there's been times I know, you've told me some

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Speaker 2: things and I go, hold on, I don't trust that.

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Speaker 1: I agree, And we always want photos, so I wish

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Speaker 1: that we had some more photos in this situation. But

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Speaker 1: let me go ahead and summarize our story. Nineteen twenty nine, Detroit, Michigan,

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Speaker 1: a couple of months before the great stock market crash

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Speaker 1: that happens in October, and we are with the evangeliste

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Speaker 1: family who been The evangelistis from Italy. He is seemingly

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Speaker 1: a great family man. The whole family ends up murdered

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Speaker 1: one night and is discovered the next morning by one

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Speaker 1: of his colleagues. His head has been decapitated. He's sitting

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Speaker 1: slumped over at his desk in his chair. His hands

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Speaker 1: are what they describe as in the prayer position. And

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Speaker 1: then his wife is dead upstairs with his eighteen month

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Speaker 1: old son hacked to death. Is I think probably one

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Speaker 1: of the ways I would describe it. And then three

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Speaker 1: little girls next door are also dead, and the police

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Speaker 1: are stymied. They're trying to figure out what happened. This

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Speaker 1: is a well known case, so you know, getting in

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Speaker 1: and trying to figure out who the suspects are is

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Speaker 1: difficult for them and could be difficult for us. We

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Speaker 1: have very limited forensics. We've got some fingerprints that they're

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Speaker 1: trying to match to different people. And then I've been

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Speaker 1: teasing this all along. We have a victim with a

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Speaker 1: very very different kind of secondary life that's going to

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Speaker 1: be coming up, and I think we'll throw some intrigue

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Speaker 1: in here, so I know your interest is peaked at

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Speaker 1: this point.

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Speaker 2: No for sure. And from what I remember is you

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Speaker 2: were talking about two men in a search of a

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Speaker 2: barn and some weapons being found. So I'm kind of

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Speaker 2: curious to see what they found.

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Speaker 1: So the police have dismissed Vincent Elias, who was the

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Speaker 1: man who I told you discovered the bodies. They thought

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Speaker 1: maybe his thumbprint would match, but they couldn't say conclusively.

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Speaker 1: There wasn't enough evidence. You and I've already talked about

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Speaker 1: a contaminated crime scene. I don't know what it would

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Speaker 1: have been like in nineteen twenty nine. My memory from

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Speaker 1: American sherlock of crime scenes in the twenties where basically

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Speaker 1: neighbors showed up and started bringing food when the corner

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Speaker 1: was still there. Yeah, like examining the body, yep.

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Speaker 2: And that's just at any time, especially with older cases.

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Speaker 2: The older the case, the sort of it's like a

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Speaker 2: funnel that expands in terms of all the various possible

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Speaker 2: alterations to the crime scene that have to be taken

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Speaker 2: into consideration, and now when you're starting to talk about

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty nine, it's wide.

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Speaker 1: Open for sure. They start looking at Bennie's business colleagues,

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Speaker 1: and they find out that there are two men, as

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Speaker 1: I had mentioned in the last episode, who were probably

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Speaker 1: the last people to see him alive, aside from whoever

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Speaker 1: killed him, if we go down that route. So one

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Speaker 1: of the men is named Angela Depoli. He's thirty four,

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Speaker 1: and he is questioned because he and his friend, who's

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Speaker 1: a forty two year old named Umberto Peccio, had stopped

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Speaker 1: by Bennie's house on the night of the murders, when

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Speaker 1: we presume they were murdered that night into the early morning.

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Speaker 1: They said, this is a very innocent meeting. One of

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Speaker 1: the men had recently purchased some property from Bennie and

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Speaker 1: he was just making a payment. But being Italian, I

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Speaker 1: think the police were suspicious, and being you know, people

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Speaker 1: who were in his circle, police were suspicious. So they

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Speaker 1: find Angelo, the first guy, and they go into his possessions.

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Speaker 1: They go into his barn and they find a short axe,

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Speaker 1: a long curved banana knife, both with reddish stains, and

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Speaker 1: a recently washed pair of shoes in the possession. They

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Speaker 1: did not conclusively say whether this was blood or rust,

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Speaker 1: but they did say that this is only about a

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Speaker 1: half a mile from Benny's house. You know, this is

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Speaker 1: a barn, so presumably he has animals. And again they

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Speaker 1: can't even say that this is blood. But Angela was

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Speaker 1: briefly arrested and released. They don't have enough on him.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think about that? I mean, they're

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Speaker 1: really they're trying to they're doing the right thing, right,

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Speaker 1: They're going after people who had last seen Benny, who

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Speaker 1: we think maybe have been the main target. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, you know, they're coming up empty because

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Speaker 1: they just don't have enough evidence for anybody.

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Speaker 2: Well on the surface, these two men being there in

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Speaker 2: the evening, you know, now you have potentially what you'd

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Speaker 2: call opportunity, especially if they're still there after the family

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Speaker 2: has you know, Santina and the girls and the eighteen

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Speaker 2: month old have gone upstairs and these two men are

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Speaker 2: alone with Benny doing this transaction. You know, one of

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Speaker 2: the things that I'd want to know is if they're

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Speaker 2: there to make the payment. Did the investigators find that

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Speaker 2: payment in Benny's office somewhere in the house, What mode

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Speaker 2: of payment. Was it was a cash was a check.

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Speaker 2: That's a significant item that I'm interested in. The weapons

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Speaker 2: that are found in the bar and I think are interesting.

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Speaker 2: I like under this scenario, I like the idea of

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Speaker 2: two offenders inside this house, one with an axe and

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Speaker 2: one with this banana knife. This banana knife I'm envisioning

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Speaker 2: is like a machete. That's kind of what I'm thinking.

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Speaker 2: And this is where that would, in my mind, be

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Speaker 2: a weapon that could inflict the decapitation to Benny as

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Speaker 2: he's sitting in this chair versus the axe. And it

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Speaker 2: sounds like the acts may be more consistent with the

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Speaker 2: types of injuries that are present on Santina and the children.

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Speaker 2: On the surface. Right now, I'm intrigued by Angelo and Umberto,

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Speaker 2: but I have a feeling that you're going to be

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Speaker 2: telling me that they were somehow eliminated.

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Speaker 1: Angela was eventually cleared. They talked to Umberto about this case,

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Speaker 1: but he was never arrested. Angela was briefly brought in

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Speaker 1: and arrested, but only based on these what could have

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Speaker 1: been rusty weapons that were found in his barn, and

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Speaker 1: they couldn't conclusively say that there was blood, which is

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Speaker 1: a little confusing to me because there would have been

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Speaker 1: blood tests available now with rust. I mean, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I remember in the David Lambson case you and I

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Speaker 1: talked about on My Favorite Murder, there was some confusion

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Speaker 1: about a blood test that might have come up with

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Speaker 1: rust or blood and it was inconclusive. Does that make

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Speaker 1: sense to you?

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Speaker 2: No, it could. I think in nineteen twenty nine it's

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Speaker 2: possible that there were some of these what we call

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Speaker 2: catalytic blood tests presumptive tests. Basically, it's a color test,

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Speaker 2: and so whether it be back then, maybe I could

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Speaker 2: see it being like benzodine. Today, there's orthotolitine, there's Luca

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Speaker 2: Malachi Green, there's phenothalene, and all of them have their

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Speaker 2: their pros and cons and their sensitivities and their cross

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Speaker 2: reactivity with other substances. But it's usually the first type

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Speaker 2: of test. If I'm noticing a stain that I think

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Speaker 2: might be blood, I'll choose one of these tests, and

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Speaker 2: in essence, blood reacts with the chemical after an oxidizing

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Speaker 2: agent is put in there, and you get this, like

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Speaker 2: with benzodine or orthotology, A very apparent or obvious is

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Speaker 2: a better term. Obvious color change, and it tells you

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Speaker 2: this could be blood. Rust generally isn't going to react

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Speaker 2: with these tests, though I wouldn't put it outside the

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Speaker 2: realm of possibility. But then there are other types of

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Speaker 2: substances that can so that's why they're considered presumptive. But

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Speaker 2: they're a good first step. So if the visual appearance

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Speaker 2: on the axe and the banana knife is more like

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Speaker 2: a stain, rust, particularly under a microscope, is very obvious,

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Speaker 2: you know. Let's especially in a fresh case. You know,

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Speaker 2: you can't have rust form as a result of the

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Speaker 2: aqueous aspect of the blood on an iron type of object,

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Speaker 2: but it should be pretty apparent that you're dealing with

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Speaker 2: a fresh blood stain versus rust on these items. And

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Speaker 2: then if it reacts with they presumpt a blood test,

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Speaker 2: then it's like okay, Well, back then they probably couldn't

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Speaker 2: sort out is a human versus animal, and they most

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Speaker 2: certainly weren't doing abo testing, you know, to be able

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Speaker 2: to at least narrow the population. But at least you

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Speaker 2: know now it's like, oh yeah, blood on these these

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Speaker 2: items that are consistent with being the types of weapons

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Speaker 2: used at the homicide seed. Explain it.

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Speaker 1: So you know, Angelo is released. I'm assuming you're right

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Speaker 1: that he was questioned and arrests and then released within

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Speaker 1: days of all of this happening, because that's immediately where

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Speaker 1: they went. They wanted to know who found the bodies,

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Speaker 1: and they looked at Vincent and released him, and then

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Speaker 1: they wanted to know who saw them last, and so

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Speaker 1: they eliminated these two guys. I think it would have

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Speaker 1: been pretty obvious that this was blood or not blood,

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Speaker 1: because it would have been recent. But and then of

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Speaker 1: course they were alarmed by the recently pair of you know,

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Speaker 1: washed pair of shoes, which I thought, if he has

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Speaker 1: a bar, and of course he's washing shoes all the time.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the proximity of these two guys the night

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Speaker 1: of the murders couldn't be ignored. So definitely put them.

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Speaker 1: Just know, the police in nineteen twenty nine cleared them.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't mean we have to clear them.

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Speaker 2: Sure, and they very well could be what we run

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Speaker 2: into all the time. These red herrings were, oh, this

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Speaker 2: is interesting. Things are kind of adding up, but it

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Speaker 2: turns out not to be the case.

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Speaker 1: We have now three levels of odd stories. I'll go

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Speaker 1: weird and then weirder than off the wall for me. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So there is a theory by a writer named Jess

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Speaker 1: Willard who wrote about this, and Jess says that there

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Speaker 1: were a number of notes that police discovered in the

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Speaker 1: evangelist home that indicate that the family might have been

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Speaker 1: threatened by a local criminal group called the Black Hand. So,

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Speaker 1: before you remember what we just talked about a couple

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Speaker 1: of episodes ago, this is not don't confuse this with

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Speaker 1: the Black.

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Speaker 2: Glove, okay, because I just had deja vu.

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Speaker 1: Was like, what it's the glove hand, Glove Hand. So

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Speaker 1: black Glove was different, and that's that was the woman

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Speaker 1: who was weighted down with the massive rock in the cistern.

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Speaker 1: This is a group called the Black Hand. They were

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Speaker 1: known for targeting and praying on Italian Americans who had

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Speaker 1: earned a lot of wealth since they had come to

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Speaker 1: the United States. During the investigation, they find the most

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Speaker 1: recent letter from the Black Hand and includes this line,

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Speaker 1: this is your last chance, but it's dated six months

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Speaker 1: before the murders. I think the big issue that Jess

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Speaker 1: points out, because I think you're gonna say, Tome doesn't

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Speaker 1: really matter to people who are focused in on a vendetta.

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Speaker 1: She says, By nineteen twenty nine, the Black Hand was

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Speaker 1: basically defunct, she says, having evolved into a traditional moblike

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Speaker 1: structure of typical organized crime. The enterprise was no longer

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Speaker 1: getting itself mixed up with extorting money from Italian immigrants.

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Speaker 1: Of course that doesn't mean anything, but there is this

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Speaker 1: six month old letter that seems very threatening, and it's

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Speaker 1: definitely from the Black Hand, which is an anonymous society.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think about that?

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Speaker 2: I think that's very interesting. You know, the six month

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Speaker 2: timeframe doesn't concern me at all, even with this Black

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Speaker 2: Hand right, not Glove Hand, right, even with this Black

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Speaker 2: Hand group being somewhat defunct and possibly being absorbed into

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Speaker 2: more of the traditional mafia. And we know this era,

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Speaker 2: you know, the Italian mafia was prevalent, I don't know

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Speaker 2: specifically Detroit, but the Chicago for sure. You know, we're

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Speaker 2: talking about days of al Capone, you know, and during

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Speaker 2: this era in some ways, and this is where we

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Speaker 2: get into, why is the entire family wiped out and

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Speaker 2: with no nothing apparently taken or anything else. This could

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Speaker 2: be a message, you know, this outfit could potentially be

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Speaker 2: conducting similar operations against other families. And this is a

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Speaker 2: way to, in essence, underscore that this outfit is serious

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Speaker 2: about their threats. We will come and kill you, and

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Speaker 2: we'll take out your entire family. So that theory right now,

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Speaker 2: I think is interesting. You know, so I want to

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Speaker 2: hear what other theories you've got.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, now, I thought it was interesting that Jess says

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Speaker 1: there's a Jess Willard says a number of notes. I

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Speaker 1: don't have information on what the disagreement was. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's obviously some kind of an extortion scheme benefits right

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Speaker 1: into the demographic and right you could have a wayward

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Speaker 1: black Hand person who wants to keep up with this.

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Speaker 1: We don't really know, But I do have a question.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember if I asked you this. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that the person who did this had to have

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Speaker 1: any kind of a knowledge of the house, which is sprawling.

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Speaker 1: If you look at that photo, it's a big house.

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Speaker 1: It just seems risky to me to be a member

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Speaker 1: of the Black Hand, who I'm presuming has maybe they've

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Speaker 1: never visited. I can't imagine they would ever visit the

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Speaker 1: home of somebody who they were extorting. Would it be

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Speaker 1: difficult in a large house to do what you're saying

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Speaker 1: you want to do if you're unfamiliar with the house at.

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Speaker 2: Night, I don't think so, okay, you know, not knowing

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Speaker 2: the complexity of the layout of this house. But my

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Speaker 2: when I've been in homes like this from the you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of the same vintage. You know, the staircase that

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Speaker 2: leads upstairs is usually a significant staircase in the center

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Speaker 2: of the home. You know, you have an offender who

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Speaker 2: goes in, you know, sees a light on in Benny's

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Speaker 2: office and goes straight there there's somebody there before going upstairs.

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Speaker 2: Once Benny is taken care of, the offender is confident

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Speaker 2: there's nobody else on the first floor, then he can

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Speaker 2: take his time to go upstairs potentially. But there's also

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Speaker 2: I mean, some of these offenders will go into the

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Speaker 2: house ahead of time to get a feel for the layout.

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Speaker 2: They burglarize the house. They're not taking anything, they're literally

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Speaker 2: just breaking in seeing the layout, and then now they

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Speaker 2: make their strategy so when they do go in and attack,

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Speaker 2: they can do it efficiently. So I'm not overly concerned.

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Speaker 2: Even though this is a large house that suggests that

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Speaker 2: the offenders had to have prior knowledge of the layout.

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Speaker 2: Of the house in order to commit this crime.

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Speaker 1: Is this the use of an axe or a banana

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Speaker 1: knife or whatever this weapon was, which was obviously probably

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Speaker 1: pretty large and sharp and heavy or something. You said

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Speaker 1: there was going to be a lot of blood. Is

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Speaker 1: this not risky to be an outsider coming in killing

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Speaker 1: these people, getting blood all over the place and all

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Speaker 1: over yourself, leaving fingerprints behind, leaving shoe prints behind, walking

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Speaker 1: out a side door or back door out of the

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Speaker 1: kitchen into the night, potentially covered in blood. That seems

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Speaker 1: risky to me? Why not do some? I don't know?

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Speaker 1: Is it not risky?

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Speaker 2: Well, it all comes down to what the offender's knowledge is.

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Speaker 2: Most killers don't understand what they're getting into in terms

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Speaker 2: of like the amount of bloodshed that can happen or

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Speaker 2: may not happen. This is often a huge misperception of

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Speaker 2: the general public. And I'm going to bring up the

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Speaker 2: OJ Simpson case where you see the photos where Nicole

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Speaker 2: and Ron Goldman were killed, and you see all this blood.

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Speaker 2: What people don't recognize is that most that blood happened

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Speaker 2: after the offender left, and offenders don't understand when they

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Speaker 2: go in, you know, they may not understand would he

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Speaker 2: decapitate somebody that, yeah, you potentially are going to have

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Speaker 2: arterial spurts occurring, where next thing they know, they've got

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Speaker 2: this gush of blood that has landed on them, versus

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Speaker 2: somebody going in and stabbing somebody who's fully clothed. And

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Speaker 2: if there's just a few stab wounds, it's not a

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Speaker 2: very bloody scene at all. So you know, this is

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Speaker 2: just where it may be. You know, they choose these

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Speaker 2: weapons first. These these are weapons that aren't making a

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Speaker 2: lot of noise from a gunshot type of perspective. They

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Speaker 2: are weapons that, if this was the intent, are very

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Speaker 2: intimidating weapons. And this is where you can see where

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Speaker 2: there could be a level of control before the violence starts.

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Speaker 2: But this is also during this era, as we've had

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Speaker 2: with the other cases. This seems to be a more

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Speaker 2: common thing back in the nineteen twenties than in the

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Speaker 2: twenty and twenties.

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Speaker 1: But if I'm picturing the mafia, the mob doing this,

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Speaker 1: or these are people who are apparently evolving into that

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Speaker 1: sort of criminal it just seems so messy. And you

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Speaker 1: have to carry around a weapon. I mean, they didn't

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Speaker 1: find the weapons, so you have to carry around a

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Speaker 1: weapon and it just seems I don't know, it seems

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Speaker 1: more haphazard than I would think a group that is

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Speaker 1: moving towards being an organized crime would be. But I

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Speaker 1: know you can also say, well, you've got these you've

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Speaker 1: gotten them nuts in every group, I mean, there are

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Speaker 1: people who don't know what they're doing in every organized crime,

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Speaker 1: you know group.

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Speaker 2: Well, And part of it is there's probably less risk

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Speaker 2: back in nineteen twenty nine with them walking away with

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Speaker 2: the murder weapons than potentially today. They don't have you know,

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Speaker 2: cops and patrol cars on a beat, you know, roving

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Speaker 2: around back then, at least not with the same type

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Speaker 2: of volume that we see today. And you know, part

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Speaker 2: of the use of these weapons may, if it is,

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Speaker 2: let's say, to send a message to other families that

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Speaker 2: they're extorting. The use of this weapon is going to

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Speaker 2: be a very strong message. You know, if you don't

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Speaker 2: do what we say, you're going to end up like

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Speaker 2: this family and it's going to be a horrible time

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Speaker 2: for you.

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Speaker 1: Well, well put a pin in that theory. So we've

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Speaker 1: got several pens happening. We've got the two guys with

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Speaker 1: the axe and the banana knife, and then we've got

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Speaker 1: the Black Hand, not to be confused with the Black

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Speaker 1: Glove Society extorters. Now we've got a very similar crime

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Speaker 1: that happened two weeks before Benny's family and he were murdered.

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Speaker 1: Now the police are wondering if this happened. This is

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Speaker 1: ten miles outside of Detroit. I don't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of information. I mean, the researchers did digging. I did digging.

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Speaker 1: This did not turn into a massive story. There was

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Speaker 1: a family called the Chapinski family. It was a mother

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Speaker 1: and her three children, and the newspapers say they were

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Speaker 1: mutilated with the same they say the savage ferocity, which

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Speaker 1: characterizes the Saint Alban slangs. So axe murders woman and

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Speaker 1: her three children two weeks earlier, but not in Detroit.

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Speaker 1: They have bloody prints from that scene. To the police

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Speaker 1: compare the Chapinski scene with the Saint Alban murder scene,

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Speaker 1: and they don't match at all, and they can't find

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Speaker 1: that killer either.

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Speaker 2: They compare the bloody prints.

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Speaker 1: At both crime scenes from.

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Speaker 2: The two cases. Yep, that doesn't mean much to me

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Speaker 2: because you can't say that the bloody fingerprints from either

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Speaker 2: case are from the same parts of the offender's hands.

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Speaker 2: You know, as an example, you know, you could have

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Speaker 2: a bloody you know, left pinky at one scene and

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Speaker 2: you can have a bloody thumb print at the other scene. Now,

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Speaker 2: of course they don't match, you know, unless they the

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Speaker 2: Layton examiner, the fingerprint examiner is able to see enough

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Speaker 2: of the hand, you know, like let's say three fingerprints

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Speaker 2: or two fingerprints side by side at one scene and

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Speaker 2: form okay, this is an index in the middle, and

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Speaker 2: then they see something similar at the other scene, and

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Speaker 2: then now they have confidence I'm comparing the same fingers

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Speaker 2: and if they don't match them, you could potentially eliminate.

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Speaker 2: But typically you don't have that, and so now I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 2: So if they're just going off of they can't make

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Speaker 2: a comparison between the bloody fingerprints at these scenes, you know,

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Speaker 2: absent that there's a sufficient detail to know they're comparing

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Speaker 2: apples to apples in terms of the parts of the hands. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't put any weight on that whatsoever. You know,

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Speaker 2: it is interesting that a mother and kids are hatcheted

399
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Speaker 2: or acts to death a couple months or a couple

400
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Speaker 2: of weeks before the Saint Aubin's.

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Speaker 1: Case, two weeks ten miles away.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in the distance. I mean, that's that's nothing, you know,

403
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Speaker 2: So now it's something that has to be paid attention to.

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Speaker 2: And then is there overlap in the victimology you know?

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Speaker 2: Or are you now dealing with something that maybe I

406
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Speaker 2: talked about early on. Are you dealing with a psychotic

407
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Speaker 2: offender and this is what that psychotic offender needs to do,

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Speaker 2: you know, in order to answer whatever mental state that

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Speaker 2: offender is in.

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Speaker 1: So if we look at black Hand, it doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: like a mother and three children, where the mother might

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Speaker 1: be a widow, we don't know much about her. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is not somebody they would be extorting money from.

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Speaker 1: So if they're trying to connect to those two cases

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Speaker 1: through the black Hand group, I don't think that works.

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Speaker 1: I will tell you there's a little bit more of

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Speaker 1: a definitive thing down here. So here's an interesting theory.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what you think about this. Benny has a

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Speaker 1: very good old friend he hasn't talked to for a

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Speaker 1: long time, but an old friend named Aurelius Angelino. This

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Speaker 1: is something that the police start to focus in on.

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Speaker 1: In the nineteen tens, Aurelius was convicted of murdering who's

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Speaker 1: two children with an axe. He was convicted and sent

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Speaker 1: to prison. So six years before Benny's murder and his

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Speaker 1: family's murders are really as Angelina escaped and they never

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Speaker 1: found him again. So what they're saying is, you know,

427
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Speaker 1: of course they are looking back at Bennie's history and saying,

428
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Speaker 1: maybe this guy came back, maybe they had a beef,

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Speaker 1: and it's the same method. But good lord, I mean,

430
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Speaker 1: how many I've talked about, so many axe murders spanning

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Speaker 1: hundreds of years. I don't know if a guy killing

432
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: his children with an axe is going to translate to

433
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: going to his friends. But this was another three they explored.

434
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, that one's wide open. Yeah, as I've mentioned, you know,

435
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: it's all in the offender's mind and their perceptions. So

436
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 2: Aurelius and Benny may never have had a beef. Orrelius

437
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 2: gets convicted of acting his two kids to death, and

438
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 2: now he's in prison, and he ultimately learns of Benny's

439
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 2: success and becomes jealous. And now because he's he's a

440
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 2: warped mentality, he decides, well, I'm gonna take my anger

441
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 2: of having lost you know, my half, my life of

442
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 2: being convicted on these cases out on Benny and his

443
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 2: family for whatever reason. You know, it's it's speculative, you

444
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 2: know it is. It looks like it's roughly twenty years

445
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 2: prior that All really has committed this crime against his kids.

446
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: But he's showing a propensity to commit a similar type

447
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 2: of violence and has a relationship or had a relationship

448
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 2: with Benny. So he's at least somebody that can't be

449
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 2: dismissed outright. God, there's a lot of things going on

450
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 2: in Benny's life.

451
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: Oh buddy, you don't even know. Get ready, I hope

452
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 1: you have your whiskey or whatever you're drinking.

453
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 2: I'm starting. You can see I've got a pretty good

454
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 2: poor going here.

455
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: So all right, you were drinking water in the last episode.

456
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 2: So yeah, well I knew this episode was going to

457
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 2: get me, so I decided to Oh, oh gosh, we're

458
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 2: going to go full leated on this one.

459
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is going to be interesting. So we're going

460
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: to rewind to when investigators find the body. They go

461
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: down into this sprawling house has a basement. They go

462
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: into the basement, and I know you're thinking, I'm gonna

463
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: say that Benny killed a bunch of people and stored

464
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 1: the bodies down there, and it's like the family's seeking revenge.

465
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: That would be interesting. But now the walls of this

466
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 1: basement are covered with a bulky green cloth, and there's

467
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: a large card placed in the window and the card

468
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: says great Celestial Planet Exhibition. Okay, the police go, what

469
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: the hell? The Detroit Free Press does a great job

470
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: describing this scene. It is the weirdest altar ever uncovered

471
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: in Detroit. He did this, Benny did this. Eight or

472
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: ten wax figures, each hideously and grotesque to the extreme.

473
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: They're suspended on an altar in a circle by wires

474
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: from the ceiling, and among them was a huge eye

475
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: electrically lighted from the inside. Benny Evangeliste is very interested

476
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: in the occult, and he is in fact identified by

477
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people in the neighborhood as an all

478
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: divine prophet religious leader.

479
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 2: Okay, so would he have gatherings down in the basement?

480
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, animal sacrifice. Do you need to take a drink?

481
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 2: Yes? I do.

482
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: I mean so, I'll show you a photo while you're

483
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: doing that. Mighty another one. The only photo I have

484
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: of this bizarro scene is the creepiest mobile I've ever seen.

485
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: This is not what you would put on over your

486
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: kid's crib, hanging paper dolls. That is what Benny had

487
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: called to people his sanctuary. So I want to show

488
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: you this that police were petrified when they saw it

489
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: because they thought it was the weirdest thing ever. So

490
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: hang on. So now things get weird when anytime you

491
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: introduce the occult, I think you can pretty much say,

492
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: now we really have to pay attention to this. Let

493
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: me show you you see why I save this.

494
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 2: Theory for the last Yeah, So I'm looking at a

495
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 2: photo which has a caption the ghoulish set of dolls

496
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 2: suspended from the ceiling and Evangelie's basement were said to

497
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,239
Speaker 2: be the rulers of his religious world. Benny's into some

498
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: weird shit here.

499
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I have a lot more details just.

500
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: Off off the top of my head. You know, this

501
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 2: is where it becomes very important to understand Benny's religious philosophy,

502
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: the commitment and dedication of his followers. So when I

503
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 2: initially heard about, you know, the totality of the scene

504
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: and how Benny was found, and one of the theories

505
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 2: I put out there is is it possible that Benny

506
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: had somebody who would come in, And if Benny's the

507
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 2: one that killed his family, would he have somebody that

508
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: could come in kill him and then stage it to

509
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: take it look like somebody from the outside must have

510
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: come in and killed everybody, right now, Do you have

511
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: somebody within this cult that Benny is a leader of

512
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: that is willing to do something that Benny directs him

513
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,959
Speaker 2: to do, you know? And is Benny of the mindset

514
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 2: that death to his family is going to free their

515
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 2: souls and they go on to a better life or

516
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: this and that, you know? So I'm kind of curious

517
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: to hear more about this thing that Benny's involved with.

518
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: Hold on, I'll show you now, I guess is a

519
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: good time. Well, you've no idea how much I've been

520
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: jumping around on my document. I've been moving around more

521
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: than I ever had. So I have been withholding something

522
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,959
Speaker 1: from you about what was found around Benny's body because

523
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: it's too weird, and I needed you to hear all

524
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: of the other stuff first before you jumped right into

525
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: this theory, because this is certainly the most fascinating theory

526
00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 1: to me. So I had teased this before Benny he

527
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: and his wife had had a child who had died.

528
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: Police found three photos of a child. This is the

529
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: kid who died who they had and presumably I would

530
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: think died of natural causes. A child in a coffin

531
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: on the floor of the office. So three photos of

532
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: a child in a coffin, his kid on the floor

533
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: of the office near his corpse. They ultimately identified these

534
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: as death portraits, you know, which were very common, particularly

535
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds, but definitely early nineteen hundreds, of

536
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: the son that they had several years ago. So they're

537
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: kind of surrounding him. And that's why I kept asking

538
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: you about suicide. It just is such a weird scene.

539
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: And of course I can tell you there's a lot

540
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: more about his religion. He wrote a book.

541
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, at least based on the description of Benny in

542
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 2: his decapitated head. He didn't do that to himself. But

543
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 2: could it be an assisted suicide? Absolutely, the picture of

544
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 2: his dead child in a coffin placed around him, you know,

545
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: it's possible he put those there, or it's possible whoever

546
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: assisted him with his own suicide, if you will, basically

547
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: did this as part of Benny's wishes, you know, So

548
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 2: Benny is for whatever reason. Again, it's all coming down

549
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: into you know, what Benny's personal philosophy is is that

550
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: he needs to have his entire family, his wife, all

551
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 2: the kids in the house that are alive dead. He

552
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 2: also needs to be whole with this process, his dead

553
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: child to be present in this photo montage, if you will.

554
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 2: And then he also has to die. And it's interesting

555
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: that it's through the use of you know, this decapitation,

556
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: you know, and is this part of the philosophy that

557
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 2: this is how everybody needs to die in terms of

558
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: being hacked to death or to let's say, move on

559
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: to the next world or the next life or whatever

560
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: he believed in you know, I have a case in

561
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 2: which I believe this is exactly what the victim wanted.

562
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: This is the you know, I have an audible out

563
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: there called the Riddle of Them and Bodfish. And to

564
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: move on from this blue demon conscience that she had

565
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 2: that was making her life miserable. She recognized that she

566
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 2: had to die an unexpected and violent death and she

567
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: needed to be bludgeoned in the head where this demon resided,

568
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: because she writes in her diary, I need to move

569
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: on to my next life because she believed in reincarnation

570
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 2: with her religious beliefs. Is this what's going on with

571
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: Benny in terms of I need to kill my entire

572
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 2: family and we have a better life that will also

573
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: bring back our dead child to be part of the

574
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 2: family again. You know, I'm now kind of speculating, but

575
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 2: I can say from experience, this is a very real mentality,

576
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 2: and with Benny's bizarro cult stuff going on, I think

577
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 2: it becomes very realistic.

578
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: Well, here we go. The family. Doctor's a guy named

579
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: alf E Thomas said he is insane. He thinks Benny

580
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,959
Speaker 1: is insane. And the friends around the neighborhood, even though

581
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: they thought that Benny was nice, say this guy was

582
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: a confirmed religious fanatic. And I say that because these

583
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: are our witnesses who have no dog in the fight.

584
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: They're sort of just observing. They're not involved. They're not

585
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: his clients. And I'll explain what I mean by clients

586
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: in a second. But you've got a doctor, and you've

587
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: got neighbors who say, this guy seems way off the

588
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: rails and his wife is just along for the ride,

589
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: is what it sounds like. Now let me tell you

590
00:33:54,680 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: about what he does. So he is someone who people

591
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: can pay money to and he will do certain services

592
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: for He provides client services like hexes herbs. He has

593
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: carried out the ritualistic sacrifices of animals, and he claims

594
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 1: to have cured people of curses. He calls himself an

595
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: all divine prophet of a religion that he invented. Of course,

596
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: he claims that he receives visions directly from God. He

597
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: has even written a bible explaining his theory, the one

598
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: I told you that's on the internet called the Oldest

599
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: History of the World. There were multiple volumes that he

600
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: self published in nineteen twenty nine. Marin has a note

601
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: for you, our researcher. She said that in the nineteen

602
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 1: twenty nine he was referred to as a cult leader,

603
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: but neither of us can find evidence that he actually

604
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: had this like following. But that was the vibe he

605
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: was giving. He was charging people money. He would get

606
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: ten dollars for private readings, during which he called upon

607
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: the powers of his own cult to heal various ills

608
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: or spiritual ills, physical ills of which patients were afflicted.

609
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: That's two hundred dollars a pop. So he had a

610
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: legitimate business. And then he had this business, but what

611
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:19,280
Speaker 1: alarmed me was all divine profit of a religion he invented,

612
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: and receiving visions from God also sort of perked up

613
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: my ears a little bit. What do you think about.

614
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 2: All of that?

615
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: Oh, I have a term for this nutjob religious fanatic

616
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: for real.

617
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 2: You think about this. You know, it's one thing to

618
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: be fanatical about a religion, but think about the personality

619
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 2: that can be discerned from the descriptors of how you know,

620
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 2: he seems to have this cult like following these people

621
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 2: who are gravitating towards him. This is that psychology that

622
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 2: we see that personality such as Charles Manson, David Koresh,

623
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 2: Jim Jones. These types of individuals have this warped sense

624
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: of reality and they want to have followers at an

625
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 2: essence look up to them, kind of put them up

626
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 2: on an altar in essence. And it's now getting into

627
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 2: and we've seen it with some of these groups where

628
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: the leader says we must all do this, and everybody

629
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 2: ends up dead. Suicide. You know, somebody needs to follow

630
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 2: a comment. I forget the name of that group, and

631
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: now everybody's dead because they're believers in this one leader

632
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,240
Speaker 2: These leaders are often very charming. You know, they're able

633
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: to convince people that are looking for something in their life.

634
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 2: You know that these leaders can possibly provide. These followers

635
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 2: are often very gullible. So this is what it's sounding like,

636
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: And now I'm really going into Yes, it seems like

637
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 2: Benny probably decided that, for whatever reason, he was at

638
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 2: a point in his life in which he had to

639
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 2: have his family killed. He had to remember his dead

640
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 2: child that was in the coffin and the photos around him,

641
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: and he had a gullible follower, somebody he trusted that

642
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 2: was willing to come in and minimally at least kill

643
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 2: Benny through decapitation and take the murder weapons with him. Now,

644
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 2: right now, I can't say, is Benny the one that

645
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 2: killed the entire family, or do you have something like

646
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 2: helter Skelter with Manson where you have a group of

647
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: these followers that came into this home, killed the family

648
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 2: and left, making it look like it was a homicide

649
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 2: with some stranger that came in without a connection, that

650
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 2: Benny was actually the one orchestrating it all along.

651
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: I had not thought about the follower aspect of it.

652
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: I had thought that this was his idea. I just

653
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 1: was so bothered by the hands in the prayer position.

654
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 1: There would have been no misinterpreting that for any police officer.

655
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 1: He was Catholic, by the way, devout Catholic. So I

656
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 1: don't know how that fits in with what he's thinking.

657
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: But he was starting to dip his toe into the

658
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: film business. He had plans to make a motion picture

659
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: depicting the history of mankind. I mean talk about delusions

660
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 1: of grandeur here. This is definitely off the rails, and

661
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: the pictures of the kid around really bugged me. It

662
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 1: didn't feel like any other explanation except the one that

663
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 1: you're talking about, except I didn't know about I didn't

664
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: think about the follower, and I think you must be

665
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: right about that. That makes sense.

666
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 2: I'm fairly confident in that Benny didn't cut his head off, Yeah, yeah,

667
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 2: without leaving evidence of the mechanism to cut it, being

668
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: able to cut his head off, because after his head's off,

669
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 2: he can't clean up after himself, you know. So somebody

670
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 2: came in minimally and cut Benny's head off, and possibly

671
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 2: did more. So this you know, my suspect Pool is

672
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: now within some of maybe his closest associates within this cult.

673
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 2: Who could he trust to do this and who has

674
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: the capability? It takes a special person to cut somebody

675
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 2: else's head off. And when I say special, this is

676
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,839
Speaker 2: I mean this is not what just anybody can do,

677
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 2: you know. So who within this group of followers would

678
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 2: be trusted and also could commit this crime, whether it's

679
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: just killing Benny or whether it's killing the entire family.

680
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 1: Gosh, well, let me. I'm not throwing you a curveball

681
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: that is as curvy as the curveball as I can

682
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: throw you. For this case, there is a man who

683
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: pops up. Three years later. This goes on unsolved, and

684
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 1: three years later there's a guy who pops up named

685
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: Robert Harris in nineteen thirty two. He was notorious as

686
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: being sort of violent and a little wacky. He is

687
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: a religious fanatic also, but he is a follower of Islam.

688
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: He's a black man, and I don't see evidence that

689
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: they knew each other, but he confesses he said, you know,

690
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: I did this, And he had been convicted for killing

691
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: a man and claimed that his victim was a sacrifice.

692
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: So investigators say, this guy has confessed he's been violent,

693
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: this is what we you know, this might be a potential.

694
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: So while they're waiting to compare the prince, he starts

695
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,399
Speaker 1: talking about he's plotting to kill other people. He wants

696
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: to kill the mayor of Detroit. And it seems clear

697
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: to them that Robert Harris has some real mental health struggles.

698
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 1: Even though he had been violent. He clearly was violent

699
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: at one point. His prints don't match with the prince

700
00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: found at the evangelist home. So before you start talking

701
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: about a follower, I kind of dismissed this, but you know,

702
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: another religious fanatic. I don't know, what do you think.

703
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: There's no nothing really tying him to this case except

704
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 1: his confession, and that's it.

705
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 2: Well, it all depends on the details he provided in

706
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 2: his confession. Does he provide information that was never made

707
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 2: public that matches up with the crime scene. I mean,

708
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 2: in many ways, we see this all the time with

709
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 2: these who done It cases. You do have your crackpots

710
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 2: that come out and they want to be associated with

711
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 2: that case, you know, whether you know admitting to you know,

712
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 2: they're they're they're saying, yes, I'm responsible for this homicide,

713
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 2: and it's just part of their warped perception. Of the

714
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 2: world that they want to have that notoriety right now,

715
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 2: that's what this Robert Harris sounds more like, you know,

716
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 2: somebody who's falsely confessing to this crime than somebody who

717
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 2: actually committed it, even though he's got this maybe a

718
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: religious fanaticism, but it's a completely different philosophy. You'd have

719
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 2: to show a you know, based on the crime scene

720
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 2: and the victimology of Benny. This is where did Benny

721
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 2: reach out to this Robert Harris or did a follower,

722
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 2: you know, reach out because the follower's going, I know

723
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 2: somebody who's capable of committing this level of violence that

724
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 2: is needed in this case. Why wasn't the family just poisoned?

725
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: Why didn't Benny just drink poison? You know, there's purposeful

726
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 2: decisions behind how these crimes are committed unless it's truly

727
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 2: a psychotic aspect. And this is where, now the type

728
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 2: of violence used in this crime is significant to Benny

729
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 2: and or the offender. And now with this this cult

730
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 2: like thing and everything you've told me, it's like, yeah,

731
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 2: this is something that Benny has told somebody he needs

732
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 2: to have done to him and his family. And right

733
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: now I'm just not buying Robert Harris. I think it

734
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 2: goes back to somebody who is very close to Benny

735
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 2: within this cult.

736
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 1: I can't even believe you're saying this, Paul. It's just like, WI,

737
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: this weirdest thing that this guy asked someone to do this,

738
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: not just to him but to his family. It just

739
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: seems so off the wall. But all it takes is

740
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: for you to know that he has such fervent beliefs.

741
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: And you know, the animal sacrifice, of course, was very

742
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: alarming to me. And this just self absorption, everything, narcissism,

743
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 1: everything that goes into it. I wish I knew what happened, Like,

744
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: what was the thing that made him say this? Is

745
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: it July third? Was it a celestial thing? This doesn't

746
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: sound spur of the moment. Have you dealt with these

747
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: kinds of cases very much? Not the fanaticism, but I mean,

748
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, people people wanting to die.

749
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, I talked about the the m and

750
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 2: Bodfish case, which there's some overlap in terms of this

751
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 2: philosophy of needing to die a certain way and moving

752
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: on to the next life. You know, kind of alternate

753
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 2: religious philosophies being involved. I have a case In fact,

754
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 2: I've been talking to my own therapist about that really

755
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,280
Speaker 2: bugged me and a little bit of a trigger warning.

756
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 2: I mean, this can be a difficult case for some

757
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 2: to hear. But I had a fifteen year old girl

758
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 2: whose father came in, gave her a hug, and then

759
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 2: blew her head off with a three point fifty seven

760
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,839
Speaker 2: magnum and then stepped out into the hallway and committed suicide.

761
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 2: And he left a video of why he did it.

762
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 2: And he did it because Jesus was calling him home

763
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 2: and he could not leave his daughter in this evil world,

764
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 2: so he killed her and then took his own life.

765
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 2: So you could see where a warped religious philosophy can

766
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: cause somebody like that to kill his family, a family member.

767
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 2: That's where when I start listening to something as you've

768
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 2: described Benny and his victimology and this cult laying out

769
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 2: his dead child's death photos and the coffin around him.

770
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 2: This is where it's like, yes, it is very in

771
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 2: line with this mentality that I need to kill my

772
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 2: family and be together. They look at it as this

773
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 2: is a good thing, and it's a hard thing to

774
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 2: accept for you know, those of us that are looking

775
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 2: at the world in a more normal sense. But it happens,

776
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 2: and it's unfortunate that it does happen.

777
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 1: Well, the conventional wisdom has always been about this case

778
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 1: that you know, maybe this was one of his quote

779
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: unquote cults, even though it doesn't seem like he had

780
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 1: a cult. One of his clients, one of his members,

781
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: one of his followers, who was mad, So not what

782
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: you were saying about, you know, doing his bidding, but

783
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: who was angry about maybe Benny's a fraud, or maybe

784
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 1: Benny told him the wrong thing, or the person himself

785
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,439
Speaker 1: has some mental health struggles, or really I think it's

786
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: settled down to a random act of violence. You know,

787
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: somebody found an unlocked door and came in and did this.

788
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: Some maniac. But it doesn't explain No, so many of

789
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 1: the weird things that come with it, and the prayer

790
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: hands and the photos on the floor. If it is

791
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,879
Speaker 1: not Benny asking somebody to do this, then someone knows

792
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: a lot about Benny and is trying to send some

793
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: kind of a weird message. I don't know any of

794
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: the reason why this would be on the floor.

795
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 2: I do not buy these others. It's not a random act.

796
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 2: It's not a vindictive type of crime, like you know,

797
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 2: we talked early on as being a possibility. I mean,

798
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 2: I do think the photos laid out of his dead

799
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 2: child in the coffin around Benny, that's hugely telling. You know,

800
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 2: who has access to those photos? Benny? You know that

801
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 2: this eliminates in my mind, the random person. They would

802
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 2: have no idea what those photos are or how significant

803
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 2: they are, even of vindication of person coming in. Why

804
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: would they do that? This is something that was significant

805
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: to Benny. He had access to those photos. He died

806
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 2: in a way in which basically his hands are folded

807
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 2: in a prayer like posture. It's like he accepted that

808
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 2: he was about to be killed. And this is where

809
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 2: I truly, truly believe this was an assisted suicide. It

810
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 2: was a family massacre, and it was being driven by

811
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: Benny's own personal religious philosophies. And he had a confidant

812
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 2: that was willing to do that.

813
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 1: And boy, could you not pick a better one, most

814
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 1: likely than someone who's one of your followers who is

815
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: never going to say anything, right, I mean, talk about

816
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: somebody who's devout to him, I would assume.

817
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 2: No, absolutely, you know, And that's just part of you

818
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: find the right person and they're willing to commit to

819
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 2: this type of crime, whether they did all of it,

820
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 2: all the homicides, or they just killed Benny after Benny

821
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 2: killed his family. You know, right now, have no idea,

822
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 2: but that person, for their own self protection, self preservation

823
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 2: as well as maybe even their ongoing religious fanatical philosophies,

824
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: isn't going to come forward and say, well, yeah, Benny

825
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 2: had me do this, or Benny was the one to orchestrate.

826
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 2: They're going to take that secret to their grave.

827
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 1: Well, this is an unsolved mystery, and I have had

828
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: listeners lining up to say, why don't you please talk

829
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: about the Saint Auban massacre. So this is an upsetting

830
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: story because you and I both have kids, and I

831
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: hate talking about children who have been murdered by it

832
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 1: sounds like in this case the parent or you know,

833
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: at the behest of the parent. But you know, I

834
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: think that this is a story that has just been

835
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: talked about for almost one hundred years now, and I

836
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: feel like when I read it, I thought, I bet

837
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: Paul with the occult aspect of this, I bet this

838
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: is going to really alarm him. And I was really

839
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 1: glad to hear that I was not unalarmed for no

840
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 1: good reason, and there were so many theories thrown out there.

841
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: This has not the one you and I have been

842
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: talking about, is not the one that has ever taken

843
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,399
Speaker 1: hold in any way. I've actually never read it that

844
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: this was his, you know, decision, and that is what

845
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: I immediately thought too. I thought this is weird. So

846
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: I hope we have a story next week that is

847
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 1: as compelling with that many theories, a little more forensics,

848
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: you know, but theories are great too.

849
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, in this particular case, oftentimes somebody's involvement

850
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 2: in alternate religions or what could be classified as a cult,

851
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 2: you know, people think, oh, that's got to be the reason.

852
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 2: And I will tell you, in ninety nine percent of

853
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 2: the time, it's not the reason for the crime that

854
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 2: was committed. But I truly believe, based on the circumstances,

855
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:54,479
Speaker 2: the evidence, the crime, seeing the victimology, that Benny's own

856
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: personal religious philosophies is the reason why that family ended

857
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 2: up dead. And it's sad, but I'm looking forward to

858
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 2: a maybe what you want to call a change of

859
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 2: pace for the next case that you give me.

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00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: Probably not, but we'll see good work today, Paul Hols,

861
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: get yourself an extra. Whatever it is that you're drinking,

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00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: that's brown in that small.

863
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:20,919
Speaker 2: Glass, it's a bourbon. That's what I will tell all right, Kate,

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00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: thank you again.

865
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: I'll see you next week.

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00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

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00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our.

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00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 2: Sources and show notes go to exactly rightmedia dot com

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00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

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00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

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00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

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00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

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00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

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00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,760
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

876
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

877
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: very Bones Pod.

878
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 2: Kate's recent book All That Is Wicked, a Gilded Age

879
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:04,800
Speaker 2: story of murder and the race to decote the criminal mind,

880
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 2: is available now, and

881
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

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00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now