Speaker 1: Warning.
Speaker 2: Today's episode Canadian spoilers from Marvel's The Fantastic Four First Steps.
Speaker 3: Fun post four. I'm not gonna be able to stop.
Speaker 3: Guys killed it that way.
Speaker 4: Hello.
Speaker 2: My name is Jason Concepcion and I'm Rosie Night and
Speaker 2: welcome back to Text Revision, the podcast where we don
Speaker 2: gee be doing your favorite shows movies is currently some
Speaker 2: pop culture. We're coming you from my art podcast, where
Speaker 2: we're bringing you episodes every Tuesday and Thursday. Plus we're
Speaker 2: discussing the summer's biggest movies every Friday and on Saturday.
Speaker 1: It's on Saturday.
Speaker 5: In today's episode, we are calling in our very own
Speaker 5: Heralds of Galactus.
Speaker 3: They do a great job, wouldn't they?
Speaker 5: Joel and Aaron super producers to talk about Fantastic four
Speaker 5: First Steps. But we are gonna be doing a very
Speaker 5: fun Ryan Table. I can't wait to hear what the
Speaker 5: people are saying, because this one's gonna be a controversial one.
Speaker 5: And programming note for you listeners out there for our
Speaker 5: X ray Vision babes, we are recording this early because
Speaker 5: we were lucky to see the movie pre Comic Con.
Speaker 5: So if we do not address any kind of like
Speaker 5: giant Kevin fie G statements that we haven't heard, or
Speaker 5: staggering box office numbers in either direction. That is why
Speaker 5: we are getting this to you so you can have
Speaker 5: it and listen to it while the movie is out,
Speaker 5: because we are gonna be at San Diego basically from
Speaker 5: now till Sunday. So yeah, check in for us to
Speaker 5: be talking about that in our post SDCC roundup, when
Speaker 5: we will surely have more news about the success or
Speaker 5: lack of success of Fantastic four.
Speaker 2: Okay, let's start first. Let's welcome our roundtable participants. First
Speaker 2: of all, we have super producer Joel Joel, how are you?
Speaker 4: I am flum mixed. There is so much perfect, so
Speaker 4: much happening on my head around this movie. I really
Speaker 4: really can't wait to talk to you guys about it.
Speaker 4: I'm not a huge Fantastic forehead, so I went in
Speaker 4: with almost no expectations and I left more confused than ever.
Speaker 6: Uh oh, I own it.
Speaker 2: And then up next super producer Aaron Aaron, how are
Speaker 2: you well?
Speaker 7: I'm still singing the post credits song let Us Be Devoured.
Speaker 7: I love love that little acoustic number at the end
Speaker 7: during the credits.
Speaker 1: Again.
Speaker 7: Yeah, pretty low expectations going into this, but excited to
Speaker 7: hear how Joel feels.
Speaker 1: And then I'll get into a well, let's.
Speaker 6: Get into that.
Speaker 2: Okay, so we know how Rosie and I feel your
Speaker 2: initial top level headline reactions to Fantastic four First Steps.
Speaker 2: Let's start with you, Joelle.
Speaker 4: Okay, my reaction. This is the craziest thing I've ever said.
Speaker 4: But y'all remember when we saw Turnles and we were like, Wow,
Speaker 4: the scale of this movie. It dwarfs me. I am
Speaker 4: in awe at the size of these cash. Yes, I
Speaker 4: can remember that Galactus, what happened? That's all you had
Speaker 4: to do was just be like, let's just bring up
Speaker 4: our little files and now Galactus, who is also one
Speaker 4: of these beings? If I'm not incorrect, I don't know
Speaker 4: what happened. And that is basically the for everything. That
Speaker 4: is how I feel about all of the things. Why
Speaker 4: did this happen? You used to be so good at
Speaker 4: like family dramas led by complicated men. Not here. Don't
Speaker 4: know why. I feel like we used to understand New
Speaker 4: York is a city. There were neighborhoods, and they had
Speaker 4: different feelings and vibes, and it was great not here.
Speaker 4: Not so when a glossal impact used to happen in
Speaker 4: a superhero movie, we visit like a monument on every continent,
Speaker 4: just so you knew that they knew what the world
Speaker 4: looked like. Not so here. They're like the whole world
Speaker 4: in danger, but mostly this little corner of New York.
Speaker 4: Why is this movie so small when you have such
Speaker 4: a large budget. What is going on? And what I really, truly,
Speaker 4: truly don't understand is how Marvel has forgotten to tell full,
Speaker 4: complete stories of characters. To get full Tony used to
Speaker 4: go on a journey of just Oh my god, even
Speaker 4: Black Panthers journey in Civil War alone is monumental. It's
Speaker 4: so huge. He's like the fifth most important character in
Speaker 4: that movie. I have no arc for any of these characters.
Speaker 4: Nothing changes, nothing happens to like things happen to them,
Speaker 4: but nothing happens inside of them. You're left so bereft
Speaker 4: by the end of this movie that being said, Oh
Speaker 4: my god, when they were surfing through that black hole, Wow,
Speaker 4: that's really cool. And black Hole was breathtaking. It was beautiful.
Speaker 4: They really put their like whole mojo into that. And
Speaker 4: I also did like a lot of the Galactys' final fight.
Speaker 4: It's the first time they emotionally connected. But the film
Speaker 4: isn't stylized enough to survive on emotional vibes, and it's
Speaker 4: not saying anything specific enough to justify how grounded it
Speaker 4: is in reality. I have no idea where we are
Speaker 4: or why to your guys's points earlier, it just feels safe,
Speaker 4: and I'm I'm disappointed.
Speaker 7: Aaron, So, I have no formal film training. I did
Speaker 7: not study film. I you know, like you all are
Speaker 7: so much more knowledgeable.
Speaker 3: When I didn't even go to college, Like I'm going
Speaker 3: to sell yourself.
Speaker 7: You're you're all so much more knowledgeable when it comes
Speaker 7: to the art of cinema.
Speaker 1: I loved this movie. I thought, yeah, let him go,
Speaker 1: let him go.
Speaker 4: Okay, I'm so excited.
Speaker 7: I'm not gonna say this is like a great movie,
Speaker 7: and I'm not going to say it's necessarily the top
Speaker 7: five in MCU by any means.
Speaker 1: I had so much fun.
Speaker 7: I mean, maybe it's because my my expectations were so low,
Speaker 7: but I there are multiple times when watching Shala Balls
Speaker 7: like surfing through lava, surfing through a black hole, I
Speaker 7: was like, this is a fucking great showcase of Superpowers, Like,
Speaker 7: we haven't had a scene in a long time in
Speaker 7: any sort of comic book movie that hit me in
Speaker 7: the same way that like Nightcrawlers open in X two
Speaker 7: where it's just like, WHOA, what a unique way of
Speaker 7: doing that. And we've had multiple Silver Server iterations. But
Speaker 7: her surfing that like made me think she was on waves.
Speaker 7: I was just like, and he got me, I'm in
Speaker 7: it and yeah, And I mean, listening to all three
Speaker 7: of you, how much you dis liked it, how much
Speaker 7: Ian didn't like it, I was kind of surprised because
Speaker 7: I was really happy the whole time.
Speaker 5: I love this so much is making me very excited
Speaker 5: because I always want people to love a superhero movie.
Speaker 3: And honestly, guess what, you are basically.
Speaker 5: Talking about the Fantastic Four in the same way that
Speaker 5: we now talk about the movies that came out in
Speaker 5: the Zeros. They were fun, they showcased something different. They're
Speaker 5: actually kind of campy and great. So it makes me
Speaker 5: very happy that someone with zero interest in the Fantastic
Speaker 5: Four actually came out of this movie enjoying it. And
Speaker 5: I do think that you highlight some of the most
Speaker 5: interesting sequences, like the Charla bal stuff. Again, I thought
Speaker 5: that looked better than the trailer. I think even though
Speaker 5: the CG wasn't great, who doesn't want to see like
Speaker 5: a cool alien something through a lava? Like, I love
Speaker 5: that those big kind of epic moments worked for you.
Speaker 5: What did you think about like Galactus as someone who
Speaker 5: has zero knowledge of like that character, Like, did that
Speaker 5: all kind of make sense and work for you? Did
Speaker 5: it add to the kind of fun of the movie
Speaker 5: to have this like totally craziest, biggest stakes we've ever
Speaker 5: had kind of creature.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: I when when he emerges for the first time with
Speaker 7: the voice and the eyes, it felt immense to me.
Speaker 7: Within the ship, the ship itself felt immense, and then
Speaker 7: it was like he appeared in space to talk to them,
Speaker 7: and like, is this hulking thing now? Granted, when he
Speaker 7: comes to Earth he feels much smaller. It feels like
Speaker 7: he lost a little juice there. But I understood too,
Speaker 7: Like you've got to have him like actively pursuing Franklin,
Speaker 7: holding Franklin, like so that we can have this moment
Speaker 7: of tension with like can we save him as he's
Speaker 7: pulling him? But that intro of him both both Silver
Speaker 7: Surfer and Galactus I thought were introd in such a
Speaker 7: powerful way, like we've all seen the clip. We'd all
Speaker 7: seen the clip of Shalli Baal already coming down, and
Speaker 7: like I herald your end, I herald his beginning. I
Speaker 7: held Galactus like that was a really powerful age.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I thought she was incredible like it.
Speaker 7: I actually last night was like looking through her IMDb
Speaker 7: to be like, what other things can I watch her
Speaker 7: in that are not horror movies. She's like only an
Speaker 7: Ozark or horror movies. It feels like like, oh the Americans, Yeah, Americans,
Speaker 7: that's right.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But I thought she was incredible.
Speaker 7: I loved her interplay with Johnny, and Galactys felt menacing
Speaker 7: to him, like I I hope he comes back in
Speaker 7: some way. Who knows if he ever really will. Like obviously,
Speaker 7: this is you know, another major Marvel villain that could
Speaker 7: just be a one off and who knows how long
Speaker 7: this universe exists. But I thought it was good and
Speaker 7: I actually really enjoyed. You know, we get what not
Speaker 7: a great movie to compare it to, but you know,
Speaker 7: like Love and Thunder, we have the god Butcher and
Speaker 7: we see Gore kill one god and that's really and like, yeah, galack,
Speaker 7: this only kills one planet, but it's a pretty cool
Speaker 7: set piece to watch.
Speaker 3: And we learned that he you know, he has been
Speaker 3: killed five.
Speaker 1: Dude.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm glad Karen's so controversial.
Speaker 2: I'm glad to hear this. I also think, you know
Speaker 2: what a death knell. Aaron likes your movie?
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: At the edge of his seat, fucking blown away.
Speaker 3: Dude, When Aaron.
Speaker 5: Likes your movie, does that mean that your movie is
Speaker 5: gonna play.
Speaker 3: Less or play more? We gotta stop paying.
Speaker 2: But this is good because I do hope that people listen.
Speaker 2: I think you make a good point, which is, like,
Speaker 2: not everybody comes to a movie with this like intense
Speaker 2: like background in the lore and a deep relationship with
Speaker 2: the characters and just wants to Like I would argue
Speaker 2: that despite the fact that, like I have a deep
Speaker 2: relationship with many of the characters that have depicted in
Speaker 2: recent movies, that I too, just want to eat popcorn
Speaker 2: and see a good movie.
Speaker 6: That said, I.
Speaker 2: Hope that people share your perspective and that this movie
Speaker 2: is successful because I think I think we're better. I
Speaker 2: love these movies. I want them to continue, and so
Speaker 2: I hope people like the movie in the same way
Speaker 2: you did.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would say, just like because I didn't necessarily
Speaker 5: touch on this and not chat.
Speaker 3: It's like, I think the.
Speaker 5: Reason I struggled was like the first forty five minutes
Speaker 5: set a very high bar for me. I just was
Speaker 5: vibing with whatever that version was, which I guess was
Speaker 5: the stuff that felt a lot closer to one division.
Speaker 5: But like, at the same time, I also understood as
Speaker 5: a somebody who watches a lot of movies, I was like,
Speaker 5: how do you keep that momentum and that stylistic editing
Speaker 5: and that kind of notion going on when you broaden
Speaker 5: out of this TV setup? And in my opinion, they
Speaker 5: weren't able to do it. But that drop off for
Speaker 5: me was big, and they.
Speaker 4: Either should have or they should have just removed that,
Speaker 4: because that's what really killed the movie for me. It's like,
Speaker 4: it's not that those first few minutes are bad by
Speaker 4: any stretch of the imagine. I agree with you, They're
Speaker 4: really well done. They tell like a somewhat interesting you
Speaker 4: feel like you're getting immersed into the world in an
Speaker 4: interesting way, but it also feels so redundant to everything
Speaker 4: that happens after it that you're kind of like, why
Speaker 4: is this here? Like we've sort of set up like, oh,
Speaker 4: Ben's really beloved in his community, but he also has
Speaker 4: some trepidation about like how he looks, but then we
Speaker 4: never really get into that. It's always just kind of
Speaker 4: like some out of the corner looks. No one is
Speaker 4: ever afraid of Ben or has a weird reaction to
Speaker 4: him or anything like that, and it's fine if they
Speaker 4: don't want to go the monster route. But then I
Speaker 4: just think, like, why did we spend so much time
Speaker 4: showing that dichotomy at that He's like, I just moved
Speaker 4: back to the neighborhood. I thought it's because I feel
Speaker 4: safe and good here and outside of this space, maybe
Speaker 4: I don't, but we don't get into that before the
Speaker 4: shows start talking to Jason about how like frustrating it is,
Speaker 4: Like I love this iteration of Sue and I thought
Speaker 4: like her being a like un world leader with such
Speaker 4: a dope angle on the character, but they just tell
Speaker 4: us that and we don't get to see it, and
Speaker 4: I would have loved to have seen, like how do
Speaker 4: you get Moman to trust you? What is it about
Speaker 4: Sue's approach to this job that makes her like so
Speaker 4: different than everybody else. I think I would have loved
Speaker 4: to have seen read watching Sue at work, because you know,
Speaker 4: I feel like when you really love your bay and
Speaker 4: they're the best of their job, you're like, oh my god,
Speaker 4: that's my girl, like look at her. Like you get
Speaker 4: to see like the moments where you're like, oh, this
Speaker 4: is what connects them, This is what the binding tissue
Speaker 4: of these characters is. And they just keep telling us
Speaker 4: they're a family, joking a little bit, but you never
Speaker 4: get to experience them as a family. I think families
Speaker 4: yell at each other. I think the families are getting
Speaker 4: angry and walk away and we don't get that.
Speaker 1: I see. I disagree.
Speaker 7: I think that they connected as a family quite well.
Speaker 7: They have the family meal, which I think is a
Speaker 7: really nice scene them coming.
Speaker 1: They do this every week.
Speaker 7: But Sue and Reid, regardless of whether there's heated sexual chemistry,
Speaker 7: like like Clark and Lois, this is a lived in relationship.
Speaker 7: These are people who've been together for years. They've done
Speaker 7: this I meant space trip and concocted special powers from it.
Speaker 7: They've tried to have a child for years. They've abandoned
Speaker 7: that hope after they couldn't have a child. They're now
Speaker 7: at a point where they know what the other one
Speaker 7: is going to say. They fight, they argue, they yell
Speaker 7: at each other because they're not living up to what
Speaker 7: the other one what they want the other one to do,
Speaker 7: and then they still come together Like this is a
Speaker 7: This to me felt like a relationship that has lived
Speaker 7: in This is not like a fresh new thing.
Speaker 1: And I like that.
Speaker 4: I sort of agree with you, Eric, Like I sort
Speaker 4: of agree with like, this is an adult relationship. I
Speaker 4: don't need all relationships to be seen me. I do
Speaker 4: need the relationships I need to understand, like what it
Speaker 4: is that has bound these two to each other for life? Right?
Speaker 4: And I think that's what's missing for me, Like there
Speaker 4: is a level of like, oh I like you and
Speaker 4: you do good work that's not binding for life material
Speaker 4: I need your work has fundamentally allowed me to do
Speaker 4: my work, or like we've come up together through this
Speaker 4: really difficult thing, and like you're the only person I trust.
Speaker 4: You're the only person who understands me. Like if we
Speaker 4: had seen Read try to communicate his ideas to other
Speaker 4: people and constantly fail, but she gets it and she's
Speaker 4: the person then I understand, like, oh, these who are
Speaker 4: a strong couple and I get.
Speaker 3: It read translater. That's fun. I like that way Sue
Speaker 3: essentially is the one who gets his ideas. That's cute.
Speaker 4: Like he's so intelligent he can't communicate with other people.
Speaker 4: I just think there's a lot of different things they
Speaker 4: could have done, and it's it's small, ticky tac things.
Speaker 4: And that's why I think we're gonna have such like
Speaker 4: an interesting conversation here and why this might be like
Speaker 4: one of those teased out conversations like I could see
Speaker 4: twenty years downline and we like it's my favorite Marvel film,
Speaker 4: Like this really out for being weird and different for me.
Speaker 2: It's like every scene is about the scene, you know,
Speaker 2: and that is why it feels kind of flat to me.
Speaker 2: Then you know, read and read and see her together
Speaker 2: and he wants to check up on the baby, and
Speaker 2: that's what that scene is about. You know, they're having dinner,
Speaker 2: and it's about them having dinner. I was talking before
Speaker 2: we turn the MIC's on, like I was thinking about
Speaker 2: this moment from the first Avengers movie, right where Colson
Speaker 2: brings the Avengers iPad to Tony Stark and he's just
Speaker 2: turned you know, he's hooked up the Stark Arc reactor
Speaker 2: to the Avengers Tower and Colson comes in and it's
Speaker 2: clear that Pepper and Coulson know each other, and that
Speaker 2: throws Tony off. He's like, why are you calling him
Speaker 2: by this like nickname? And then he's you know, ostensibly
Speaker 2: that scene is about I want you to join the Avengers,
Speaker 2: I want you to manage this thing, but it's also
Speaker 2: about like the relationship of all these three characters and
Speaker 2: why do you know Colson?
Speaker 6: Like wait, where where do you know him from?
Speaker 2: And by the way, like, I'm going to give you
Speaker 2: a twelve percent of the credit for managing the Stark Tower,
Speaker 2: and Pepper's like the twelve percent, What the fuck.
Speaker 6: Is that about?
Speaker 2: Like I did this whole thing and like and so
Speaker 2: you kind of get why they're together, Like they're jousting
Speaker 2: on an intellectual level. On an emotional level, Tony's a
Speaker 2: little jealous. He's pretending he's not jealous, but he is, like,
Speaker 2: why do you know this fucking Shield agent? When did
Speaker 2: you meet this Shield agent? And there's none of that
Speaker 2: jealous Yeah, who's the Who's you feel like you walked
Speaker 2: into the middle of a conversation where there's all these
Speaker 2: other things that you don't necessarily get that makes it
Speaker 2: feel like a lived in full world, right, a full relationship.
Speaker 2: And I get what you're saying, arin like the things
Speaker 2: have died down, but still to me, part of the
Speaker 2: flatness of this movie, specifically around the relationships, is every
Speaker 2: scene is about the thing that is happening. She walks
Speaker 2: into Johnny's room and it's about Johnny decoding Schallibah's language.
Speaker 2: Ben goes to see Read and it's about the relationship
Speaker 2: between Ben and Reid and why Read won't open up
Speaker 2: to him. Johnny goes to see Read, and it's about
Speaker 2: the space suits. You know, it's there's no other okay
Speaker 2: thing that intersects with it to make you feel like, oh,
Speaker 2: I you know, you ever walk into somebody's house and
Speaker 2: like the mom is like yelling from the other room
Speaker 2: and the dad's talking about something, and somebody walks in
Speaker 2: and says, oh, this person called. You don't know who
Speaker 2: that person is. There's none of that like dangling threads
Speaker 2: that make you feel like it's a life And I
Speaker 2: felt like I was really missing that.
Speaker 5: I think that's a great point. Let me ask you,
Speaker 5: guys this, how much do you think that some of
Speaker 5: these issues, even you're from the outside hour and as
Speaker 5: someone did enjoy it and maybe doesn't see it as issues,
Speaker 5: how many of these choices. I felt like they really
Speaker 5: wanted this to not be like quippy Marvel, like you know.
Speaker 3: How everyone kind of complains about that.
Speaker 5: And I also wonder if like they went too far
Speaker 5: in the other direction where we don't get a lot
Speaker 5: of bantering scenes.
Speaker 3: In my opinion, we.
Speaker 5: Don't get a lot of the that kind of texture
Speaker 5: and in jokes and all those things that you know
Speaker 5: families do have. And I do think that part of
Speaker 5: that comes from they don't want to do the Origin again.
Speaker 5: They want to be like but the irony is they
Speaker 5: say they don't want to do the Origin again Alah Superman,
Speaker 5: which did that very well, But then they also do
Speaker 5: the Origin at the beginning for forty five minutes, which
Speaker 5: ironically my favorite part. I think if a story's great
Speaker 5: and has a good origin, you can do it as
Speaker 5: many times as you want. But I wanted I feel
Speaker 5: like the opening had the energy, the wildness, the weirdness.
Speaker 5: I want to see them fighting all these villains.
Speaker 3: Why are they in New York.
Speaker 5: Why in this version of New York or they're like
Speaker 5: fifty million hilarious themed villains. How did you guys feel
Speaker 5: do you feel like they were trying to step away
Speaker 5: or do a new direction for.
Speaker 3: The mcu joelle, What about you?
Speaker 8: I'm gonna answer that question when we come back from
Speaker 8: this break A.
Speaker 3: She's so profecid.
Speaker 4: Yay, we're back, Okay. I we were talking a little
Speaker 4: bit about how afraid Marvel is. It's from a corporate perspective,
Speaker 4: we can understand. I mean, if we again compare like Superman,
Speaker 4: it's struggling worldwide, like at home Gangbusters worldwide. People are
Speaker 4: not so high on people Americans right now.
Speaker 6: So we get it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, understandably, Understandably.
Speaker 5: I was looking at these numbers yesterday. It's just not
Speaker 5: doing like crazy big superhero numbers.
Speaker 3: It's still like.
Speaker 5: Performing pretty well. It's just domestically it's really hanging.
Speaker 3: I think those.
Speaker 4: Margins make a difference to a corporation. So from a
Speaker 4: corporate standpoint, I understand wanting to play it safe. I
Speaker 4: think we're and this is the thing. You know, if
Speaker 4: you've been tracking Hollywood news for a while, so thing
Speaker 4: you we've been talking about for a long time like
Speaker 4: this is not how art works. You can't play it
Speaker 4: safe and hope to succeed in art. It just doesn't
Speaker 4: ever work. You have to you really have to pick side.
Speaker 4: You have to make difficult choices. It's what makes art
Speaker 4: pop and connect to an audience. It's what grips people
Speaker 4: to it. So you know, Superman may have detractors, but
Speaker 4: it's making very strong, bold statements and it's connecting with
Speaker 4: the people it was made for. I think Disney has
Speaker 4: to release this idea of we need to be for
Speaker 4: everybody and just pick somebody you want to appeal to.
Speaker 4: I think, like, for example, if you want to keep
Speaker 4: this squeaky clean, cool, but then this should be a
Speaker 4: fun ass Avengers movie, like it big, like more time
Speaker 4: with your villain who's more dastardly, and like in your face,
Speaker 4: Like there is a way that you can keep this
Speaker 4: very Disney, very like high polish. If you want to
Speaker 4: do the grounded story, then we need the darkness. And
Speaker 4: the darkness can't be hinted at. It can't be a suggestion.
Speaker 4: It has to be that real for us. If you
Speaker 4: want us to be in a real New York, then
Speaker 4: we need to feel the real things we would feel
Speaker 4: as adults. Like, it's a problem for me, and I
Speaker 4: just think I also think there's recently, Kevin Figi did
Speaker 4: a big like sit down with a bunch of different
Speaker 4: press members. I read the Variety article on it, and
Speaker 4: in it he was like, you know, we're always trying
Speaker 4: to plus scenes, We're always trying to add more. So
Speaker 4: we're never done, and I'm never satisfied with a script
Speaker 4: or a film, Kevin gently love. That's a problem. It
Speaker 4: is a big problem.
Speaker 3: It is a problem.
Speaker 4: I've never finished or satisfied. It's a problem to.
Speaker 1: Say that's why.
Speaker 4: We can never feel grounded or landed in a decision,
Speaker 4: because in a couple of weeks you might change your mind.
Speaker 4: And for I think performers and artists specifically, they base
Speaker 4: so much of like this hand gesture is because sixty
Speaker 4: pages from now, this is going to happen. Like they
Speaker 4: try to connect all that stuff that's part of their training,
Speaker 4: and so when you don't have a grounded world to
Speaker 4: build off of, you struggle. And I think that's sort
Speaker 4: of where Disney is at right now. They're trying so
Speaker 4: hard to a please everybody, b make sure that their
Speaker 4: movies can perform at their highest top rank that they
Speaker 4: have completely like negated story and arc and saying anything
Speaker 4: for a chance to get some cash, and it's it
Speaker 4: reads and to me, it's not enjoyable.
Speaker 3: I think as well.
Speaker 5: The issue comes when it's the idea of like not
Speaker 5: making a whole movie because guess what, guys, and you
Speaker 5: know that with the conversation around this movie, Eternals is
Speaker 5: going to be making a return to the discourse even
Speaker 5: outside podcast a. Sandy Eternals actually, uh, you know over
Speaker 5: hate it underrated and I.
Speaker 3: Said, oh, of course, but say this one thing, it.
Speaker 5: Is gonna be like people are gonna be talking about
Speaker 5: that feels like a whole movie.
Speaker 3: Babe. You watch the movie. You seen the movie, you
Speaker 3: understand what happens. This can't help to me but feel
Speaker 3: like a little bit. It doesn't make enough of a
Speaker 3: leap away from the MCU is established.
Speaker 5: It kind of feels more in the middle, and I
Speaker 5: think that is a problem for what they needed to
Speaker 5: do on a corporate level, and also the fact that
Speaker 5: I'm even thinking about what they needed to do on
Speaker 5: a corporate level. That means the movie didn't immerse me
Speaker 5: and make me very happy. But Aaron, what do you
Speaker 5: think compared to, like, you know, Phase four and five.
Speaker 5: As someone who enjoyed this, what are the things that
Speaker 5: made it different for you, that made it something you
Speaker 5: really enjoyed.
Speaker 7: I likes that it felt it was detached and felt detached.
Speaker 7: This felt like again I mean Thunderpoltz. I think I
Speaker 7: said the exact same thing about that movie. If you
Speaker 7: hadn't caught up with phases four and five and just
Speaker 7: wanted a jumping off point, Thunderbolts was a good spot
Speaker 7: to do. I think this is another good spot because
Speaker 7: you don't have to have any connection to anything. This
Speaker 7: is a different New York, This is a different universe.
Speaker 7: Like the connection and how it will move into the
Speaker 7: main MCU is not even explained in this movie, which
Speaker 7: you know that was a bit of a bummer. I
Speaker 7: do wish like there was something that like cleared that up.
Speaker 7: And maybe that was too much again fan theorizing and
Speaker 7: like how are they going to do this? Oh, they're
Speaker 7: gonna send Franklin in the in the ship and you
Speaker 7: know whatever. Like I was fine with this being a
Speaker 7: little standalone thing. I did personally feel I hear all
Speaker 7: of these complaints. I agree, Like, there are definitely moments
Speaker 7: in this that feel, like Jason, what a good point,
Speaker 7: Like every scene in this is the scene and there
Speaker 7: is nothing that it's saying while we're giving you a
Speaker 7: little extra stuff here, which again not not like a
Speaker 7: great movie, still an enjoyable time for me because it
Speaker 7: felt like I felt kind of immersed in it. They
Speaker 7: got these little Fantastic Four created you know, baby monitor,
Speaker 7: and they got the Fantastic Four created TV and like
Speaker 7: there are all these little things that still feel in University,
Speaker 7: and I, you know, I loved seeing Subterranea for the
Speaker 7: brief twenty seconds. I do wish we had more Moleman, Like,
Speaker 7: you know, I wish I got to see Malcovic.
Speaker 3: You never thought I did hear people saying that, but
Speaker 3: it's coming out again and again.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I wanted him to do something molemanny ish
Speaker 7: I would have. I would have just loved him coming
Speaker 7: through in a big drill or something, you know. But
Speaker 7: I like, I I thought that the their group dynamic
Speaker 7: gave me the immersion I needed in them. And even
Speaker 7: if I don't feel the immersion in that world, and like,
Speaker 7: sure there's a shot of the Pyramids, Like that doesn't
Speaker 7: give me the world, you know, feels about them or
Speaker 7: their decision in not giving up Franklin, which is something
Speaker 7: I have thoughts on too, But like them in the
Speaker 7: Tower was enough for me of like, oh, yeah, here's
Speaker 7: a little like immersive part of them and Sue appearing
Speaker 7: out of nowhere on Ben's bed as they're just like
Speaker 7: hanging out, and like, oh, I hate that was fun.
Speaker 3: That was fun.
Speaker 4: My favorite part of like, oh, there's where I felt
Speaker 4: some texture when Ben turns to look at Sue and
Speaker 4: he's like, are you pregnant? My whole heart left out
Speaker 4: and I was like, this is the cutest, sweetest, like
Speaker 4: I really understand who they are as friends. I will say, ever,
Speaker 4: in the Tower it felt like roommates. It felt like
Speaker 4: they're arey' all love each other so much?
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, gang roommates, Do more of that, Do more
Speaker 3: of that.
Speaker 4: I felt a little less family than I wanted in
Speaker 4: that space, but the energy in that dining scene was great. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Can I just say as well, these are close family
Speaker 5: because something that I was absolutely dying at is when
Speaker 5: they're in space and she's giving birth, which I do
Speaker 5: think is such a fantastic scene, the anti grammaty bro
Speaker 5: bro bro thing, not just that she takes off the.
Speaker 3: Fantastic pants and things. Head is just all up in it,
Speaker 3: like his head is right then, I'm like that.
Speaker 4: By the way, I like these.
Speaker 5: Guys are really close, Like this is like I don't
Speaker 5: know if i'd have my my bestie up in the place,
Speaker 5: like he knows you're pregnant.
Speaker 4: Last here we have to pause here and talk about
Speaker 4: something really important. Okay, I really like here they set
Speaker 4: Sue up. No no, no, because you've you've touched on
Speaker 4: something that has I can't stop thinking about it. Sue
Speaker 4: is an awesome woman character, and we have so few
Speaker 4: in the MCU, and a lot of the ones who
Speaker 4: are really cool we don't either a get enough of
Speaker 4: or be they feel so forced cool that it almost
Speaker 4: trips into being on for example. Okay, so like Aquay
Speaker 4: is my favorite woman in the MCU. She's so boss,
Speaker 4: She's the whole wag Sea like. She's great. She's supposed
Speaker 4: to have a series that got canceled too that I like.
Speaker 4: I like Carter, she's great. She had a TV show
Speaker 4: but it was not treated well and didn't do great.
Speaker 4: She kind of pops up in What If. But there again,
Speaker 4: I think that her as like the British Captain. It
Speaker 4: doesn't do much for me. I'm sorry personally. It feels
Speaker 4: a little forced and it's a little wild. Here comes
Speaker 4: Sue working for like peace and dealing with world leaders,
Speaker 4: and she's so cool. Then she gets pregnant. I love
Speaker 4: stories about moms. I think moms are so cool, and
Speaker 4: we don't give them enough credit on screen and off.
Speaker 4: When they get pregnant, they get shoved off into a
Speaker 4: corner boring. She's like, listen on nothing, stop and bid
Speaker 4: a great and at the top we're gonna get into it.
Speaker 4: So at the top, I think it's really interesting, Like
Speaker 4: we get this really tender scene of like, oh my god,
Speaker 4: I'm pregnant. We stopped trying. That's crazy. This is very
Speaker 4: common story for people to have trouble getting predate them
Speaker 4: and you stop trying. That's when it happens. Lovely. They're
Speaker 4: so excited. They're an older couple. They're a little bit nervous,
Speaker 4: but all of this is working so well. They're like,
Speaker 4: it's gonna be good. And then they're like, let's go
Speaker 4: to space. I said, pause. She's a geriatric pregnancy, which
Speaker 4: is not an offensive term. It's just the scientificiatric pregnancy.
Speaker 4: She is way pregnant, I would guess, at least seven months,
Speaker 4: but possibly further along. You're not even supposed to be
Speaker 4: on an airplane at this point in time, and that
Speaker 4: she's about to rock it off into space. This is
Speaker 4: what I'm talking about. If you want to be grounded
Speaker 4: in reality, then we must address that.
Speaker 6: Joe conversations.
Speaker 3: Joe, I couldn't.
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree with you more because I think what
Speaker 2: we needed in the they come back home and everybody's
Speaker 2: mad at them scene is like read being like, Okay,
Speaker 2: my wife went up to space to try and fucking
Speaker 2: save the world at eight months pregnant. They you're not
Speaker 2: even supposed to do any of this. Stuffy could have died.
Speaker 3: Out head complaining.
Speaker 2: But let me ask you, well within that because part
Speaker 2: of what I felt missing in with the whole question
Speaker 2: of why she doing this is.
Speaker 6: She does what? On the like, what does she do?
Speaker 2: I get that she is an incredible communicator and her
Speaker 2: ability to build bridges with Harvey the Moullman and his
Speaker 2: entire society is like what brought piece of the planet
Speaker 2: and there's other variations of this, but like I felt
Speaker 2: like they needed to put that on front Street. She
Speaker 2: is going on the mission why.
Speaker 5: To communicate with Galactus? Right, that's what the immedia aunts,
Speaker 5: so would be like she is the.
Speaker 3: One to say that I agree with you.
Speaker 4: So really what she does other is like she tactically
Speaker 4: makes them invisible when it's called for, which is not
Speaker 4: something you could aid plan for. And b we can
Speaker 4: go back and to read a little bit here. If
Speaker 4: Reid is a genius, then I believe that he is
Speaker 4: a genius. Is like, we need to attack a problem
Speaker 4: on multiple points because we are now at a ticking clock.
Speaker 4: They're like, hey, your end is coming. You don't have
Speaker 4: a lot of time. Okay, what if I said my
Speaker 4: whole team into space explorationally? No, absolutely not. Ben, get
Speaker 4: up there, Johnny, you're gonna work on this language thing.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna try to figure out the transportation sue. You
Speaker 4: go be a diplomats and people don't hate us. We
Speaker 4: have different roles that need to be inactive, and we
Speaker 4: need back up plans to our play through, like we
Speaker 4: have one Hail Mary. I'm like, this is driving me crazy.
Speaker 4: There's no person would approach a problem this way.
Speaker 3: I think that the biggest issue I'm realizing.
Speaker 5: I love having these roundtables because Aaron, a lot of
Speaker 5: what you're saying is true. There was moments when I
Speaker 5: was just vibing. I think for me, I just this
Speaker 5: version of Read is at the center of my issues
Speaker 5: with the movie. I don't think he's clever enough. I
Speaker 5: don't think he's inventive enough. I don't think that he's
Speaker 5: taking enough risks. Ironically, he takes a huge risk with
Speaker 5: Sue going to space, but like they don't even really
Speaker 5: have a conversation about it, and then he doesn't really
Speaker 5: take risks when it comes to like, I truly believe
Speaker 5: that Read Richard's incredible mind would be so obsessed with
Speaker 5: Galactus and the way that he works and the things
Speaker 5: he needs, why wouldn't he try and come up with
Speaker 5: a different idea? And I get you just gave birth
Speaker 5: in space, very like stressful situation.
Speaker 3: But I do feel like for.
Speaker 5: Me that kind of lack of Read being the smartest
Speaker 5: or being so smart, being so scientific. It was very
Speaker 5: drawn back here, It was very introverted here, and he
Speaker 5: didn't even do like something me and Jason talked about
Speaker 5: that I thought would have been.
Speaker 3: A great call.
Speaker 5: Is he didn't even like do something really risky by
Speaker 5: himself that would have proven that he thought he knew
Speaker 5: better than everyone, and that causes like a conflict.
Speaker 3: And then I'm sorry, guys.
Speaker 5: I think you guys are having such a good, sensible, interesting,
Speaker 5: diverse conversation, but I got to bring it up the
Speaker 5: fucking baby, Like I'm sorry, guys, Like why couldn't they
Speaker 5: get a real baby? Like, I mean, there is a
Speaker 5: real baby, but like, why did they see gi.
Speaker 3: The baby's face?
Speaker 5: It's so distracting, especially if you're sitting at the front
Speaker 5: like me, especially if you have brain rot like me.
Speaker 5: As soon as that happened, I started thinking, oh shit,
Speaker 5: it's the Twilight Baby. It's frank zmey. This is gonna
Speaker 5: be one of the things that becomes a meme. Not
Speaker 5: just that, guys, this is my other thing I just
Speaker 5: have to say, because they didn't say it on the
Speaker 5: other podcast. I have now realized that Bellis One has
Speaker 5: exactly the same powers as Sue Storm, And once I
Speaker 5: started thinking about it, the whole.
Speaker 3: Movie was completely derailed for me.
Speaker 5: Dude, powers that they can control where they protect their
Speaker 5: family by putting out a shield like she gets worn
Speaker 5: down by it. The baby is a talking baby that
Speaker 5: can emotionally talk to Stephanie Meyers. I don't know if
Speaker 5: you ever read a comic of The Fantastic Four, but
Speaker 5: you either have exactly the same brain as Jack Kirby unlikely,
Speaker 5: or you definitely stole all of those powers the baby.
Speaker 5: Once that happened, the movie was on a downward swing
Speaker 5: for me. Even though I love Galactus, I love Look.
Speaker 5: I've been pitching for a long time, guys, this idea
Speaker 5: that this year is hot Kaiju summer. Every movie has
Speaker 5: a fucking Kaiju. They made Galactus into a Kaiju. They
Speaker 5: scaled him down, they had him walk through. Michael Giacchino
Speaker 5: even did the dunt dunt dum like it was gonna
Speaker 5: be Godzilla's the and I thought that was really fun.
Speaker 5: But then I started the baby looks weird. Galactus isn't
Speaker 5: the right scale. He's changing size, like we're watching later
Speaker 5: Jurassic World movies where the dinosaurs would always changed size.
Speaker 5: And I think that's where it started to get muddy
Speaker 5: for me. It was all began with Frank Zme and
Speaker 5: from there it was it was it was downhill. Let's
Speaker 5: talk about before I went on that tangent Pedro Pascal.
Speaker 5: I believe the man. I'm not gonna say the question.
Speaker 5: Does Pedro have the juice? I believe he has the juice.
Speaker 5: We've seen him have the juice. Did they make the
Speaker 5: most of having the most famous actor in the world
Speaker 5: as read Richards? In my opinion, no, Aaron, did the
Speaker 5: read Richard's characterization as someone who doesn't necessarily know him?
Speaker 3: Was that a character you were interested in?
Speaker 7: I mean, I know I have a basic understanding. Yeah, really,
Speaker 7: you know, I read you know, fraction comics and stuff.
Speaker 7: I just don't have like a huge He was never
Speaker 7: one of my favorites, and I think honestly he's very
Speaker 7: few people's favorites because we have this constant comparison and
Speaker 7: obviously to Superman, and I have been shocked this whole
Speaker 7: time that you've thought this would be bigger than Superman
Speaker 7: because Superman is just a bigger brand.
Speaker 3: But don't always do crazy well.
Speaker 7: And it also anyways, Yes, but for Reid, I think
Speaker 7: reads not the main character of this movie.
Speaker 5: It's a s Johnny, That's what I'm saying. That's a problem.
Speaker 5: It is a Swing Johnny movie and they are better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he that shouldn't.
Speaker 5: Be the case when you have Pedro pascal as read
Speaker 5: Joe Al what was your read on read?
Speaker 4: Okay, I have a controversial opinion to this groups here
Speaker 4: I read I like this version of reading, but I
Speaker 4: love a worry dad. Like a worried dad is like
Speaker 4: for me, like, I'm like.
Speaker 6: This is so sweet.
Speaker 4: He's like literally was like, what if I took down
Speaker 4: every gang at once? Like the ambition to baby proof
Speaker 4: of the World is It's what endeared me most to Read.
Speaker 4: And simultaneously the fact that didn't pass on to his
Speaker 4: wife at all, which I think is really where usually
Speaker 4: it's like you're the carrying case and now I'm like,
Speaker 4: protect you at all, colle He's like, watch you out
Speaker 4: here doing whatever? But how do I make this world
Speaker 4: safe for my baby? I love this element of him.
Speaker 4: I think there's a lack of dichotomy between Read before
Speaker 4: he found out he was going to become a dad
Speaker 4: and Read once he found out he became a father.
Speaker 4: I think it would have been really interesting to see
Speaker 4: this read that everybody knows as a top like adventurer, headstrong,
Speaker 4: like confident in all of his thoughts like really like
Speaker 4: loving the event, and again we get it in a speech,
Speaker 4: see exactly.
Speaker 3: That's the problem.
Speaker 4: But that's what I'm saying, Like if you had given
Speaker 4: us a moment instead of telling us, oh, we were
Speaker 4: like really adventuring and now I'm a dad, it's different.
Speaker 4: Show me, show me, like okay, here he is like
Speaker 4: taking risks, not listening to everybody, like really on his own,
Speaker 4: and the minute he finds out he's a dad, all
Speaker 4: his confidence is gone. He's concerned about everything he's he's
Speaker 4: isolating a little more because he's putting all of his
Speaker 4: time and effort into these new inventions. Like there's that
Speaker 4: gives you an arc, but instead what you get is like, oh,
Speaker 4: this guy's become a dad and he's worried about it,
Speaker 4: which doesn't give me a lot to connect to the character.
Speaker 4: Everybody worries when they find outther becoming apparent. That's like
Speaker 4: the universal thing about becoming a parent. But this guy
Speaker 4: has changed dramatically and now his wife is like where's
Speaker 4: my husband at? And the world is like, where is
Speaker 4: our leader at? That's how we get into a story.
Speaker 4: There isn't enough dichotomy between who were you before this
Speaker 4: inciting incident and who are you now? And there's not
Speaker 4: enough character in the who are you now for us
Speaker 4: to infer who he was before, and so it's just
Speaker 4: it lays kind of flat. I think Patron's giving his all.
Speaker 4: I thought when he's been the calculations, when he's talking
Speaker 4: to the kids and he gets too lofty's like, let's
Speaker 4: explode something like there's so much like where you're like, oh,
Speaker 4: I get the personality leader on TV type it. It's
Speaker 4: almost there, but the writing just doesn't give us enough
Speaker 4: to understand the man fully.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for me, it's very simple of middle aged genius,
Speaker 2: super genius who lives with his family and has no
Speaker 2: secrets from them is not interesting period. What is his
Speaker 2: internal life like? Like, what is he not telling them?
Speaker 2: What is he not the world? He literally tells them
Speaker 2: immediately he lands thirty seconds after the galactus thing, and
Speaker 2: it's like.
Speaker 6: Here's every here's the here's the absolute.
Speaker 2: Most crucial shit that happened. That, by the way, I
Speaker 2: should keep to myself. I'm gonna tell you everything, and
Speaker 2: that is I agree with you everything you said. You well,
Speaker 2: But I think part of the reason it's flat is
Speaker 2: like everybody in this is an open book that has
Speaker 2: no secrets from anybody else, like what Rosie hinted at.
Speaker 6: It and talked about it.
Speaker 2: We did mention it in the pod. But like part
Speaker 2: of being that smart is you see around the corner
Speaker 2: and you see what's coming. Do you want to let
Speaker 2: people know about how bad it's going to be? Maybe
Speaker 2: he doesn't. And now it's interesting.
Speaker 3: Right, imagine if he had been the only.
Speaker 2: One this is much worse than everybody thinks, and I
Speaker 2: know it, And how do I break that to everybody?
Speaker 2: Or do I even break it to everybody? Now I'm
Speaker 2: leaning in and I just felt like the fact that
Speaker 2: it's just read telling you, I'm just here's everything that's
Speaker 2: going on, and here's everything that I'm thinking, and here's
Speaker 2: what happened with and him being such an open book
Speaker 2: is part of why it didn't why it felt a
Speaker 2: little swagless to me, Like I love that he was
Speaker 2: a caring father, but he had a he almost had
Speaker 2: there was like he was kind of personality less in
Speaker 2: a way that felt a little drab.
Speaker 7: Again, not a bad movie, not to invoke Marvel at
Speaker 7: its peak, but it would have been amazing to have
Speaker 7: had a scene reminiscent of Doctor Strange saying there's one
Speaker 7: there's one universe, there's one path where this works out.
Speaker 3: So I seen it.
Speaker 1: Yea been very cool.
Speaker 4: They started hinting at it when she's like what you
Speaker 4: do hurts me sometimes, and that Jason was talking about
Speaker 4: like that being the most interesting part to him. I
Speaker 4: think that like if they had actually went and had
Speaker 4: that fight instead of like the hard cut Disney decided
Speaker 4: to make where he's really like, yes it does. I'm
Speaker 4: gonna hurt your babe, Like I'm stupid smart, and I
Speaker 4: have to see all of the options and if this
Speaker 4: is part of being with me, and she could be
Speaker 4: like you terrified, I mean, this world for our child again.
Speaker 4: Now we have conflict, Now we have something to go
Speaker 4: off of. But like the immediate return to the side
Speaker 4: of like I'm sorry, I'll try to be better at that.
Speaker 4: You're just like this is not storytelling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're gonna go to a break. We'll be right back, Okay.
Speaker 2: It's the it's the comparison that it's not a comparison,
Speaker 2: it's not a competition, but it is a competition because
Speaker 2: they are competing companies. Superman versus Fantastic four.
Speaker 4: Do we care?
Speaker 2: Is it like, do we acknowledge it? What do we
Speaker 2: think if this movie comes out on its own with
Speaker 2: no Superman? Do we feel differently?
Speaker 4: In Arrival? Read this old you cannot help but compare.
Speaker 4: I absolutely think we would have a different perspective. I
Speaker 4: also think we'd have a term perspective. If Marvel's last one,
Speaker 4: two or three movies had been hit, then it wouldn't
Speaker 4: matter as much. But because they were like, this is
Speaker 4: so new and so different, because it's a property they've
Speaker 4: been trying to get back, and everybody's very curious about
Speaker 4: what's gonna happen with the formerly Fox characters. I think,
Speaker 4: of course, like we can because they had James Gunn
Speaker 4: and lost him. I think you can't help but look
Speaker 4: and compare and like contrast and see, like, hey, what's
Speaker 4: going on here? And when you look at DC hitting
Speaker 4: it so hard out of the park, making it completely
Speaker 4: their own, and to have Marvel hit you with another
Speaker 4: like me like that's it's almost worse than if it
Speaker 4: had been bad, because if it had just been straight
Speaker 4: up bad, then you could be like, well, at least
Speaker 4: they were trying something, and they're trying to shake off
Speaker 4: this like dust and get back to something but the
Speaker 4: men and the safety of it all. I mean, I'm
Speaker 4: hearing life long like since eight Marvel fans be like,
Speaker 4: I just don't care anymore. Like it's not superhero fatigue,
Speaker 4: it's Marvel fatigue, and it's because you're not giving us
Speaker 4: stuff to be excited about and to connect with. I
Speaker 4: really like like the idea of Galactus. Again, I'm not
Speaker 4: a big Fantastic four person, but Galactus is one of
Speaker 4: those creatures that whenever seen me be like, holy shit,
Speaker 4: Like he's a world eater. He's a world eater. She
Speaker 4: pushed him back with magical rainbow forces. I just what
Speaker 4: are we doing? Like why why did that happen? We're
Speaker 4: we have tactical geniuses on the ground and they're not
Speaker 4: at their tech Like typically what happens when you get
Speaker 4: an emotional pushback like that where it's like one person
Speaker 4: just giving it. They're all until they died on the field.
Speaker 4: What's usually happened is you've had nineteen failures before that. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and it's the last hurrah and it's the only time
Speaker 4: to save them. And it makes sense. We have like
Speaker 4: two tries that are honestly mediocre and haphazard, and it does,
Speaker 4: and it makes what should have been this emotionally devastating
Speaker 4: moment for a woman he said, I will do everything
Speaker 4: to protect my child kind of silly. You're like, he's
Speaker 4: a world eater who's older than our universe and you
Speaker 4: got to just push him across a lot. I don't
Speaker 4: understand you didn't use his hubris against him. Like there's
Speaker 4: just classic comic book tropes of how we the villains
Speaker 4: that they just chose not to hit here, and it
Speaker 4: really bums me up.
Speaker 2: I just want to add before we move on that
Speaker 2: I think this what you're talking about, Joelle, we're missing
Speaker 2: the early movie scene that usually appears in these kind
Speaker 2: of movies where there's some sort of fight so that
Speaker 2: it's it's one an exciting moment for the fans, but
Speaker 2: it's too an important load bearing structure because it tells
Speaker 2: you how strong everybody is and how their powers work.
Speaker 2: And the fact that we didn't get that before this
Speaker 2: big fight, I think it makes it contributes to this
Speaker 2: kind of murky feeling. Okay, Aaron, without Superman, you loved
Speaker 2: the movie so like better than Superman?
Speaker 6: Tell me, like, is it better than Superman.
Speaker 7: Uh wow, So obviously I'm gonna say Superman's better because
Speaker 7: I'm standing here with the three of.
Speaker 1: You, so.
Speaker 6: They don't be bullied by us.
Speaker 3: I have controversial opinions all the time. Say for it's
Speaker 3: all good, we welcome the min I.
Speaker 7: In six months, who knows how I'll feel about the
Speaker 7: two of these movies, Like I'll rewatch them and I
Speaker 7: will probably like one more than the other.
Speaker 1: At this point, I left the.
Speaker 7: Theater for both movies very happy that I had seen
Speaker 7: a fun comic book movie. And I think that I
Speaker 7: think Marvel peaked with Endgame. I think Marvel right now
Speaker 7: is Lebron on the Lakers like trying to chase his
Speaker 7: former glory. Everyone is trying to achieve the same thing,
Speaker 7: even Marvel, Like Marvel is trying to be what Marvel was,
Speaker 7: and nobody's really doing it. DC is exciting, and I'm
Speaker 7: hoping that that will lead into a nice universe and
Speaker 7: we can get some fun Mister Terrific and some fun
Speaker 7: howtgirl stuff. But I had fun. I had fun with
Speaker 7: both of them, and like I left Superman, excited to
Speaker 7: see more comic book movies, which I think is something
Speaker 7: that hasn't been the case. Like I didn't leave Brave
Speaker 7: New World, like Holy, I can't wait to get back
Speaker 7: in the theater for one of these. And I left
Speaker 7: Superman and I felt excited about stuff, and I left
Speaker 7: this and I was like, I'm excited to see all
Speaker 7: these people in Doomsday. I think the will be fun.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it.
Speaker 7: It will unfortunately be compared to Superman, as we have
Speaker 7: done throughout this entire podcast episode, and everyone else will
Speaker 7: do the exact same thing. I think it will compare unfavorably.
Speaker 7: Everyone I think will prefer Superman to this, which is fine.
Speaker 7: You know that's gonna happen when they are released back
Speaker 7: to back like this. If it was on its own,
Speaker 7: I don't know if I would have felt differently about it.
Speaker 7: Maybe because I had such low expectations and was so
Speaker 7: happy with Superman that that made me enjoy this one too,
Speaker 7: And just like the residual good feelings about comic book
Speaker 7: movies was still, I was still high on that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know that. It's not really an answer.
Speaker 6: I enjoyed it Rosie better. If Superman didn't exist.
Speaker 5: I think it's different, but I don't think it would
Speaker 5: take away the biggest problem, which I think you guys
Speaker 5: kind of touched on, and I just I think after
Speaker 5: this conversation, the biggest issue is they didn't know how
Speaker 5: to bring the powers to the screen.
Speaker 3: And I don't think that.
Speaker 5: Would be different if Superman hadn't been released before. Agree,
Speaker 5: I think that this I did have a feeling where
Speaker 5: if this had come out after Endgame, even with like
Speaker 5: a two year gap or something, I think this would
Speaker 5: have felt like a gang buster. Hey, they're doing something different,
Speaker 5: Like it's still flawed, but I think post everything else,
Speaker 5: it feels kind of like the movie should be better,
Speaker 5: and for me it is that. I think you made
Speaker 5: a great point, Jason, and you two Aaron this note
Speaker 5: of like power setting. I don't think they knew how
Speaker 5: to do the powers. I think the stretching was bad.
Speaker 5: I think there was moments where as a comic book
Speaker 5: fan who loves this stuff like reads, so in this world,
Speaker 5: he didn't invent unstable molecules because his costume ripped, or wait,
Speaker 5: how far can galect Us pull him? Doesn't actually look
Speaker 5: that far compared to other things. I think it To me,
Speaker 5: it comes down to the powers and how they represented,
Speaker 5: and I don't think that that would have changed with Superman.
Speaker 5: But Superman had so many different core characters with cool
Speaker 5: different powers, like a really inventive green lantern, that I
Speaker 5: think that without that, maybe this would have looked a
Speaker 5: little bit better. But yeah, I think it's gonna be
Speaker 5: the cultural conversation. And Marvel made that choice by putting this.
Speaker 3: This could have been.
Speaker 5: Their main movie if it was finished, but they didn't
Speaker 5: make that choice, and they didn't finish it in time.
Speaker 2: I mean, Superman is and that James Gunn Era has
Speaker 2: come out with such a bang that we we don't.
Speaker 6: Count Blue Beetle. We're literally like that didn't.
Speaker 5: Happen, which is also funny because the irony is it's
Speaker 5: like a really fine made for teaching, which is what
Speaker 5: it was made of, right, right, and but it's kind
Speaker 5: of funny and we're just like, oh, yeah, I didn't
Speaker 5: forget that Superman, they did it right well. James Gunn's
Speaker 5: own suicide Squad was a huge bomb, yep, but they
Speaker 5: still said, hey, this guy's got a vision, like, let's
Speaker 5: see what he can do. So maybe focusing on the
Speaker 5: vision in and not the money is the massive day.
Speaker 2: Okay, we're heading towards Doomsday, we get a snippet of Doom,
Speaker 2: who is surely not RDJ. It's just some guy whatever PA.
Speaker 3: Was day Good for that good?
Speaker 2: I have to be feeling going to Doomsday and any
Speaker 2: predictions as we head towards Doomsday and secret with.
Speaker 5: Rosie predictions, how am I feeling about it? Give Doctor
Speaker 5: doomergreen coat. I don't want to see this silver cape.
Speaker 5: I'm not interested in it. I don't know about that
Speaker 5: sot out. That mask looks bad if you're I think
Speaker 5: a lot of the problem with this is right now,
Speaker 5: there is a very interesting resurgence with kids and gen
Speaker 5: Z folks of enjoying what Zero's CG looked like. There's
Speaker 5: been a lot of retroactive fandom of the Michael Bay movies,
Speaker 5: the intricacy of the CG, this kind of detailed focus,
Speaker 5: and I do think that, unfortunately, that means people are
Speaker 5: looking back to the Odd Fantastic Four movies. They're going, hey,
Speaker 5: this looks pretty fun, pretty camp, pretty colorful. I think
Speaker 5: there's a lot of comparison here. I think they are
Speaker 5: committed to doomsday. They've rushed that through their bringing back
Speaker 5: the Russo Brothers. I don't know I would like to
Speaker 5: see Doctor Doom dunwell, and everyone knows I was not
Speaker 5: a huge RDG Doom fan. This doesn't necessarily fill me
Speaker 5: with joy, but I do think, as I mentioned before,
Speaker 5: lots of ways to change that, lots of ways to
Speaker 5: adapt it. Shachman put in all these wonder Vision kind
Speaker 5: of caplans, shop and all these things that made me think, well,
Speaker 5: you could always just say it was all a dream
Speaker 5: or a pocket universe or whatever version you want to do.
Speaker 5: I don't think they're going to do that, because they
Speaker 5: committed really hard to this. But my biggest this theory
Speaker 5: is that yeah, Doom wants Franklin so he can create
Speaker 5: World War Doom. He can create his battle world or whatever,
Speaker 5: and then he will use that to craft the drama of.
Speaker 3: Secret Wars or you know.
Speaker 5: Honestly, the weirdest thing is like I came out of
Speaker 5: this with so many more just like joke thoughts.
Speaker 3: In my head.
Speaker 5: And everyone knows I'm a theorizer, but this really left
Speaker 5: me more of like why did the baby look like that?
Speaker 5: Which is kind of crazy.
Speaker 4: Joelle, I really hated this post credit scene. I hate both.
Speaker 4: This one really upset me. I think a good post
Speaker 4: credit scene, as established by Marvel, informs your audience of
Speaker 4: something new. So like the end of the Thunderbolts credit
Speaker 4: scene was fucking boss. We got new outfits, we understood
Speaker 4: that they were. Now like there's a new conflict set
Speaker 4: up between these vendors and the new Avengers and then
Speaker 4: the fantastic for entering the papers great so much I
Speaker 4: can take home and work with and pick up. That's awesome.
Speaker 4: Doom is coming and you did a whole presentation on
Speaker 4: that year and a half ago. Like I I've done
Speaker 4: seen that. I know doom is coming. What do I
Speaker 4: get out of here? I don't even understand, Like I
Speaker 4: don't even necessarily need to know that, Like I'm working,
Speaker 4: like ore Read and Sue still together because they were
Speaker 4: having some conflict that never really got resolved, and it's
Speaker 4: all very vague and foggy, and he's nowhere to be
Speaker 4: seen in this apartment. Uh what is Sue? Is she
Speaker 4: stay at home mom? Now they're just chilling at home
Speaker 4: or like I don't understand, Like it's four years, You've
Speaker 4: done a four year jump, but I don't know, like
Speaker 4: what's happened? I don't know. They're just reading books and
Speaker 4: now Doom is here. This is such a waste of
Speaker 4: my time. I just says, of my time. Makes it
Speaker 4: feel so dramatic. I just feel like, if you're gonna
Speaker 4: do a post credit scene, like there should be a
Speaker 4: reason for rolling the camera. And I just don't even
Speaker 4: made a big deal. They were like, oh, if the
Speaker 4: Russo's directed, I'm like, who gives a You could put
Speaker 4: an interurt on this. It got the exact same shot,
Speaker 4: nothing happened.
Speaker 5: I will say as well, Joel, you're making me think
Speaker 5: like why as well? Like tonally, maybe don't bring the
Speaker 5: verses in because hilariously, my read on that post credit scene,
Speaker 5: so who goes into that.
Speaker 3: Room and there's like a sexy music and her magic
Speaker 3: starts and I was like, I literally was like no more.
Speaker 3: I was like, why they bringing him into this.
Speaker 4: Like they already want to five was like there'd be
Speaker 4: another man in this house, like he's not here anymore.
Speaker 5: Feel to me, it didn't feel like Fia. It didn't
Speaker 5: feel like Aaron, how is it for you? We're so
Speaker 5: happy to see doctor Doom.
Speaker 3: You love him.
Speaker 1: I loved it.
Speaker 7: It was There have been too many Marvel post credit
Speaker 7: scenes that introduced some new character that we're never going
Speaker 7: to see again. Are we excited that Schiros again? Are
Speaker 7: we going to see Clea again? Are we going to
Speaker 7: see Hercules? Like there have been too many of those.
Speaker 7: This was an in universe introduction to doctor Doom. Yes,
Speaker 7: we've had the comic con panels, Yes we've had news
Speaker 7: leaks and photos, but this was the first time in
Speaker 7: universe we get doomed. This is an introduction to something new.
Speaker 7: Like not everyone that's seeing the movie has been in
Speaker 7: the subreddits for three years rising about Doom, so this
Speaker 7: is an introduction to him. I thought that this did
Speaker 7: what the old post credit scenes used to do, introducing
Speaker 7: cap Shield, introducing Thor's hammer, introducing like a thing that
Speaker 7: we know is going to happen in an upcoming movie,
Speaker 7: as opposed to all these other ones that are just
Speaker 7: like expanding the universe for the universe's sake and they
Speaker 7: never lead to anything. So I thought this was a
Speaker 7: really good one, and I I I don't care if
Speaker 7: it was downy or not. Like the fact that there
Speaker 7: was just a hint of Doom. We get this iconic
Speaker 7: villain who's going to be there. I can't believe you're
Speaker 7: going off on like whether or not read his home
Speaker 7: and if there has to be another man in the house.
Speaker 7: What a silly Like it was just about introducing Doom,
Speaker 7: that's it, but it wasn't another man in that house.
Speaker 6: Doom the back of Doom, but it's not an introduction.
Speaker 4: Listen, wait, wait, we got Thor's hammer. Like nobody knew
Speaker 4: what to expect next. Really like they weren't doing large,
Speaker 4: like full scale announcements, and so when you uncover the shield,
Speaker 4: you're like, oh, that you're doing more. That's really exciting.
Speaker 4: Even Samuel Jackson's like, they're like, oh, here's the full character.
Speaker 4: He does have the eye patches. Samuel L. Jackson, we
Speaker 4: did the long coat, but there's enough detail in there
Speaker 4: that you're like, I'm starting to get an idea of
Speaker 4: like who this character is this And yes, the spirit
Speaker 4: level Halloween costume where he's on his knees and he's
Speaker 4: got the tape. Any action, y'all are gonna beet Ian
Speaker 4: on our Comic Con news episode. I'm very excited for
Speaker 4: the audience. It's gonna be great, lots of hot takes
Speaker 4: for Ian. But I just I felt like, well, if
Speaker 4: I'm totally fine with like, here's just a tease of
Speaker 4: this character, but then you need to be doing something
Speaker 4: And I don't understand what he's doing with the like
Speaker 4: what who are you here for the kiddy? Here for Sue?
Speaker 4: What's going It's just so out of left field and
Speaker 4: not enough information.
Speaker 1: He was he was sitting in front of Franklin and
Speaker 1: he taking.
Speaker 4: Off his mask and he's kneeling. But again that it's
Speaker 4: not enough information. Aaron is not I need I need
Speaker 4: a here's the thing I'm giving you, here's the keys,
Speaker 4: you're coming with me? Anything? What are we doing?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 5: Also a big issue and I did bring this up
Speaker 5: on mine in Jason's podcast, but I think it leans
Speaker 5: into this, like they don't introduce Doom at any point
Speaker 5: in the movie, and like Victor von Doom is like
Speaker 5: a very important part.
Speaker 1: Of what there is.
Speaker 7: In the un with the la He's not there, but
Speaker 7: like so that was the.
Speaker 5: Well, like the implication of him being with Franklin, if
Speaker 5: he'd been in the movie is like, oh maybe Sumin
Speaker 5: Doom did hook up. That was always that like tension
Speaker 5: between them, is it his kid? Like this was just
Speaker 5: like a random guy coming to find Franklin. They did
Speaker 5: they go to college together.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: That was my So my takeaway on obviously the final stinger,
Speaker 2: I think is you wasted everybody's time with that. The
Speaker 2: the first stinger, I liked it, but I thought what
Speaker 2: you needed was one line anywhere in the movie Meeting
Speaker 2: of the Future Foundation, lavarious seat is empty. Somebody says
Speaker 2: something about that. Somebody just set the table so that
Speaker 2: I know if he exists or not, and if you
Speaker 2: know who he is or not. That's what I needed,
Speaker 2: because now we're heading into this. You know, after this
Speaker 2: the credit scene is that her first time she's met Dune.
Speaker 6: They fought him before.
Speaker 8: Does she know who?
Speaker 4: Like I don't want this.
Speaker 5: Room?
Speaker 6: Yes, and and any of that is fine.
Speaker 2: You don't know who he is? You do, like but
Speaker 2: I but not knowing is so weird to me.
Speaker 6: Just set it up.
Speaker 2: And then my final takeaway, just like on as we
Speaker 2: headed Doomsdays, we head in a Secret Wars all this
Speaker 2: stuff is I am left feeling that I don't know
Speaker 2: if Marvel has a plan, although I'm sure they say
Speaker 2: they do, and if they do have a plan, I'm
Speaker 2: not sure that Figgie will stick with it. Like I
Speaker 2: think that this movie has all the hallmarks of something
Speaker 2: that's been changed a million times, even up to the
Speaker 2: fact that Malcovich was surprisingly cut out of it despite
Speaker 2: being featured in the in the trailers right as apes
Speaker 2: was still bad and the apes are still there. So
Speaker 2: do we have a plan? Are we able to follow
Speaker 2: through with it?
Speaker 4: According to Variety.
Speaker 2: Can we follow Can we follow through with it in
Speaker 2: any substantive way? So, because like, here's what happened, you know,
Speaker 2: we talk about Marvel fatigue.
Speaker 6: What happened was Marvel ran out of story.
Speaker 1: That's all.
Speaker 2: It's really a very simple thing.
Speaker 4: Like it's not.
Speaker 2: Of course, there was some heat that drifted away and
Speaker 2: some uh fatigue with the genre overall, But what really
Speaker 2: happened is you ran out of story after endgame, the
Speaker 2: story was over, and yes there are these little solo
Speaker 2: things it happened, but the overarching story was the story
Speaker 2: and you ran out of that. So do we have
Speaker 2: that anymore? Do we have plans to create that? Or
Speaker 2: are we just gonna kind of go movie for movie,
Speaker 2: jumping moving to movie.
Speaker 6: And that, to me is the question.
Speaker 4: I have a theory. I have a theory, okay, and
Speaker 4: it's it's and maybe it's just what shuol thinking, because
Speaker 4: I've been asking Marvel to do this for a very
Speaker 4: long time, but you have to go younger, for the
Speaker 4: love of God. Look me, I agree, must go younger.
Speaker 4: And it's not because we don't want to see stories
Speaker 4: from older folks. It's just that you have stocked so
Speaker 4: much on the older folks that there's no space for
Speaker 4: the young kids to get it. We're worried about like
Speaker 4: a forty five year old, like having a baby for
Speaker 4: the first time, like a five year old, cannot connect
Speaker 4: on that emotional level. They don't understand. Johnny is not
Speaker 4: enough of a kid for the kids to connect to.
Speaker 4: I don't know who the children are supposed to like
Speaker 4: fall in love with and connect with in this movie,
Speaker 4: and that.
Speaker 1: Is Johnny eat cereal out of the box, Joelle.
Speaker 4: He was in that Stranger Thing movie. He's clearly the
Speaker 4: little brother, but it's just not quite enough. He's not
Speaker 4: cool or daring enough to sort of get on the
Speaker 4: vibe of like, oh he is like the alt outside
Speaker 4: kind of bad boy esque energy that we kind of
Speaker 4: expect from Johnny. I think that if they can lean
Speaker 4: into the X Men and a Young Adventures team and
Speaker 4: nail the consequences and the things that concern Like the
Speaker 4: youth are concerned about a lot of things. Pick a
Speaker 4: tough like is it climate change? Is it their rights?
Speaker 7: Is it war?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 4: All of these very classic comic book things that the
Speaker 4: youth tries to process through these heroes. Now is the
Speaker 4: time Marvel to tap into those things, and then you
Speaker 4: can get in Avengers versus x Men build into that,
Speaker 4: and that's really cool because who doesn't love an Avenger
Speaker 4: versus X Men showdown? I certainly do.
Speaker 2: I think what you're getting at also is something that
Speaker 2: I've been Part of the reason I like Superman so
Speaker 2: much is because gun is subversive.
Speaker 6: What do we even buy someone?
Speaker 2: He was able to put all these themes about war,
Speaker 2: about immigration, about and and do them in such a
Speaker 2: way that, yes, some people called it out, but he's
Speaker 2: also like tricking a lot of people realizing that that's
Speaker 2: what the movie is about. So much of what I
Speaker 2: love about cinema from the fifties and sixties is all
Speaker 2: of these subversive things about race relations or or homosexuality
Speaker 2: that we're snuck into mainstream movies by artists who understood
Speaker 2: that this is part of life. But my bosses are
Speaker 2: going to say no, So I'm going to put this
Speaker 2: in there in a way that nobody could really figure
Speaker 2: it out, right, And we need that now. We need
Speaker 2: that now from our superhero movies, and we need that
Speaker 2: now from Marvel. And I think that The Fantastic Four
Speaker 2: was a movie that was completely bereft of any kind
Speaker 2: of subtext, and we need some subversive subtext in these movies.
Speaker 5: Again, I think you've touched on something really incredible that, Jason,
Speaker 5: because Superman and DC are generally seen as the above
Speaker 5: the real world. You know, they're the gods, the trinity
Speaker 5: that they can't connect. They're more about fantasy, and Marvel
Speaker 5: is always seen as grounded and talking about things in
Speaker 5: the real world. It's much of what made people excited
Speaker 5: about the comics and why they've had such a longevity.
Speaker 5: And I think it's pretty crazy that we're in a
Speaker 5: situation where we have a DC movie that's done that
Speaker 5: in a really kind of both subtle and on the
Speaker 5: noseway and works in both ways. And like you said, Jason,
Speaker 5: this movie has nothing to say, which is kind of crazy. Actually, Yeah,
Speaker 5: you make a great point.
Speaker 2: Well, that's been it for a roundtable of the Fantastic Fool.
Speaker 2: On the next episode of xtra Vision, We've got a
Speaker 2: special recap from our time at Comic Con featuring Alien
Speaker 2: Earth and Rosie's conversation.
Speaker 6: With Yeah, who, Rosie, Who, who might you be talking to?
Speaker 5: I'm going to talk to Tom McFall and legendary Spawn
Speaker 5: creator and Image comic superstar and one of my favorite
Speaker 5: comic book.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode. Thanks for listening. X ray
Speaker 2: Vision is hosted by Jason Concepcion and Rosie Knight and
Speaker 2: is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 5: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kurtman.
Speaker 6: Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Speaker 5: Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wag.
Speaker 2: A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
Speaker 2: songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 5: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and
Speaker 5: Heidi our discord moderator.