WEBVTT - What do we actually Know about J. Edgar Hoover? 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.000 Guess what, mango, what's up? Well, so you remember that 0:00:02.000 --> 0:00:04.880 show Rowan and Martin's laughing, right, Yeah, of course, Like 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:07.680 my sister and I were huge fans because my dad 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:09.920 had taped some sort of anniversary special for us, so 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:11.840 we used to watch all the time as kids. It 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.560 had like Goldie Hawn and Lily Tomlin, Sammy Davis Jr. 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:17.239 Was on it. It was it was great. It is 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:19.360 pretty amazing to see some of those old clips. Well, 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.520 in preparation for today's episode, I was reading this twenty 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.120 one page report and this thing was filed by the 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:28.720 FBI back in nineteen seventy one because apparently they were 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:30.880 not happy that the show had been making fun of 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:34.280 their untouchable director, you know, the j Edgar Hoover. And 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:37.239 I'd actually never looked at this report before, but it's 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:41.280 actually publicly available online now. And I remember we printed 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:43.440 a story about this in Mental Flaws a while back. 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.440 You remember this, So I don't remember the Mentalphi story, 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:48.880 but I do know that the FBI was mad about 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:51.400 the show's actors pretending that they were like talking to 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:55.000 Hoover through this bugged potted plant. Yeah, that was one 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:56.920 of them. And there were a few other sketches, but 0:00:57.080 --> 0:00:59.360 my favorite is how ticked off they got it? What 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:02.160 now seems like the most harmless joke. In fact, it 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:04.200 was actually a knock knock joke. Are you ready to 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:06.440 hear this? I mean, you know I'm always ready for 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:09.000 a knock knock joke? Great, all right, here goes then 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:14.200 knock knock? Who's there? Hoover? Hoover? Who Hoover heard of 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:18.959 a seventy six year old policeman? That's it? Yeah, and 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:20.920 that for some reason has really ticked them off. And 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.480 in the report that's dumb joke, it's referred to as vicious. 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.199 I mean, not only is it like a super mild joke, 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:31.360 it barely feels like a joke, I know, but the 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:34.360 fact that it spawned a twenty one page report is 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.280 just baffling. And if there's one thing we know, it's 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.319 that you didn't mess with j Edgar Hoover. So today 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:42.120 we're going to take a look back at how Hoover 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.960 rose to power, how we managed to expand that power 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:48.160 over several decades, and what that's meant for our country's 0:01:48.160 --> 0:02:12.639 evolving relationship to the agency. So let's get started, ye AI. 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:15.160 Their podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:17.280 Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good friend 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.000 Mangesh Ticketer and on the other side of the soundproof 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.640 glass showing off his favorite vintage j Edgar Hoover buttons. 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.680 That's our friend and producer Tristan McNeil. Now, I do 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:29.440 want to be clear these are anti Hoover buttons from 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:31.359 the look of them. At least you've got what there's 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:34.560 one that says replaced j Edgar Hoover. He's got another 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:36.840 one that says j Edgar Hoover is listening to you. 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:39.480 And I actually can't make out that what you're closer 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.400 to a mango. What does that yellow one say? Yeah, 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.679 it says j Edgar Hoover sleeps with a Nightlight to 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:48.520 oh Burn, I know it's probably my favorite, but Tristan 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:50.919 was actually telling me about these earlier, and apparently they're 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.000 all from the Vietnam were era when Hoover's abuses of 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:56.679 power were first coming to light Well. Sleeps with a 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:59.800 Nightlight is definitely one of the tamer accusations leveled at 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:02.560 who were over the years, and after looking into the 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:05.200 history for today's show, it's easy to understand why he 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.919 remains such a controversial figure even today, from playing fast 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.840 and loose with civil liberties to collecting secret files on 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:16.040 innocent people. There's no question that Hoover's five decade reign 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:18.600 as FBI director came with some heavy costs for the 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:21.639 nation as a whole. Yet at the same time, it's 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:23.640 also clear that Hoover did a great deal of good 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:26.760 for his country, particularly during the early years of his tenure, 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.560 when he helped pioneer many new crime fighting measures. They're 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.880 still being used today, and these are things like fingerprint 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:37.080 files and investing in crime labs. So with that dichonomy 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:38.960 in mind, we're going to take a closer look at 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.600 the man behind the controversy and try to get a 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:44.040 better sense of both the good and the bad of 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.960 Hoover's lifelong reign. Yeah, and I think you hit the 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:49.560 nail on the head when you said lifelong, because you know, 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.240 he became director of the Bureau of Investigation way back 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:55.240 in four when he was just twenty nine years old, 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.600 and then when the Bureau reorganized and added federal to 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.480 its title, this was a nine five. Hoover stayed on 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:05.360 as director for an amazing forty eight more years. And 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:08.160 you know, just to put that run in perspective, keep 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:11.320 in mind that even with lifetime appointments, the longest serving 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:15.080 Supreme Court justice only lasted thirty six years. Yeah, and 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:16.359 you know, when you think about it, that kind of 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:19.760 career dedication, it did come at a steep price for him, 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.599 because you know, by most historians accounts, the man really 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.720 didn't have much of a private life. He never married 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:29.440 or had children, didn't have any notable hobbies or pastimes, 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:32.080 and there aren't many personal stories from his adult years 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.839 to shed life on who he was outside of the office. 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:37.440 And you know, usually it'd be easy to brush this off. 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:40.320 It's just saying it's typical for a workaholic. And some 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:44.240 historians suggest Hoover's lack of a private life was by design, though, 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:46.640 And I mean, for a guy whose life mission involved 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:50.320 collecting dirt on anyone and everyone, it does make sense 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:52.200 that he would have wanted his own life to be 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:54.800 as dirt free as possible. Right, But of course we 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:57.119 know that didn't stop people from cooking up all kinds 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:00.240 of scandals and conspiracy theories about him anyway. And well, 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:02.320 I'm sure we'll get to those later. For now, I 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:04.400 do want to go back to Hoover's early years because 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:06.520 that's really our best chance to get a sense of 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.160 his personal life and who he was. Yeah, okay, I'm 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:10.640 done with that, but you're probably gonna have to do 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:12.440 the heavy lifting on this one, because I'm gonna share 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:14.960 with you the two facts I learned about his early life. 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:17.040 One he was born in Washington, D c. In eight 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.080 and two he apparently had a bad stutter. That's all 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:23.400 I got. I hope you've got more than that. It 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.800 doesn't feel like you really tried there. It is a start. 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:29.440 So Hoover actually grew up just a few blocks from 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.040 Capitol Hill, and he did, to your point, have a 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.839 stuttering problem. You know, he joins this long list of 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:38.400 famous people who stuttered. His kids, Joe Biden's on this list, 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:43.800 Winston Churchill, Moses was apparently a stutter. Um Marilyn Monroe 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:46.440 apparently her her breathy way of talking was just a 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:48.719 way to slow down her speech, so she didn't stutter. 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:52.640 But Hoover actually did the opposite. He competentated by talking 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:55.920 really quickly. Ain't taught himself to talk super fast, and 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.159 in fact, he got so adept at talking that he 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:00.440 joined the debate team in high school, where he was 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:04.479 known for spreading and using his cool, relentless logic, which 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.200 I guess sounds impressive until you realize he was arguing 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.159 against stuff like giving women the right to vote. You know, 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.000 I'm curious, though, what about Hoover's home life. Was he 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:15.640 close with his family or was he always more or 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:19.039 less aloof Yeah, so, Hoover did have two older siblings, 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:21.120 He had a brother and a sister, but he was 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:24.280 probably closest to his mother, and supposedly she was the 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:28.000 family's moral center and also the main disciplinarian. And given 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:30.960 those characteristics, I guess it makes sense that JEdgar Hoover 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:33.520 would have gravitated most to her. I mean, the two 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.400 of them stayed super close all through Hoover's life, and 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:38.719 they even lived together right up until her death. She 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:41.680 passed when Hoover was apparently forty three years old. And 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.520 so what about his dad? Well, Hoover's dad was this 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.040 low level government worker, which which is why they lived 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:49.520 so close to Capitol Hill, And unfortunately, he began to 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.200 suffer from a mental illness when Hoover was young, which 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:54.880 put a lot of pressure on his son and also 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:57.880 created something of a riff between them. And as one 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:01.560 of Hoover's cousins put it, Hoover couldn't really tolerate that fact. 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:06.040 He couldn't tolerate anything that was imperfect. It's not exactly 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.360 the warmest way to deal with the loved one's illness. 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:10.760 But all right, So that this, this makes Hoover the 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.200 breadwinner of his family at this point. So does he 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:17.200 go straight into law enforcement or what does he do next? Now, 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.320 Hoover's first foray into public service was actually as a 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:22.760 messenger at the Library of Congress. So he took the 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:25.360 gig in nineteen thirteen when he started attending college as 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.480 a law student. And you know, he's the successful upstart. 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:31.920 He gradually rose through the ranks over there for the 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:35.320 next four years. Then, once Hoover passed the bar examp, 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:37.880 he actually quit the library job, and the very next 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.240 day he took an entry level position as a clerk 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:43.480 at the Justice Department. But his time working at the 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.920 library deeply influenced Hoover, and, as he later wrote, the 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.760 job trained me on the value of collating material. He 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:52.640 gave me an excellent foundation for my work in the FBI, 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.920 where it's been necessary to collate information and evidence. Huh. 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:57.600 You know, I was actually reading about some of the 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.920 innovations Hoover made at the FBI, and one of them 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:03.920 was actually the addition of cross referencing to the agency's 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.160 filing system, So you can kind of see where he 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.880 got that idea exactly. But as formative as that first 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.240 job was, Hoover really started to come into his own 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:14.800 at the d o J. And in fact, just two 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:17.760 years after being hired as a clerk, Hoover had impressed 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.400 his superior so much that he was promoted to head 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:24.320 of the Bureau of Investigations General Intelligence Division. And at 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:26.840 this point, the US had entered World War One, so 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:30.320 Hoover's job was largely to gather intelligence on radical groups 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:32.320 within the country. All right, So this is the part 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:34.080 that I feel like we learned about in history class, 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:35.840 because this this is the red scare that we're talking 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:38.400 about now, right, Yeah, And and specifically, there was this 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.720 series of anarchist bombings in the US in nine and 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:44.240 one of them damaged the home of the Attorney General 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:48.160 at the time, this guy, Mitchell Palmer. So in retaliation, 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.280 Palmer had the General Intelligence Division carry out these raids 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:54.720 to arrest people suspected of being radicals, and over the 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.640 course of the next two years, these Palmer rays resulted in, 0:08:57.760 --> 0:08:59.920 like the rest of I want to say, thousands of 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.200 cused communists and anarchists, and several hundred of these people 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:06.360 were actually deported. Now were these raids legal. It sounds 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:08.839 like Hoover had authorization from his boss to conduct them. 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:10.839 But but did they have this big stack of search 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.280 warrants or anything like that. No. I mean that the 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:16.160 raids were definitely illegal, and there were other problems too. 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.240 So for one thing, most of the accused turned out 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:20.880 to be innocent, and many of the confessions that were 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:25.000 given were actually highly questionable. They seemed coorced. But luckily 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.160 for Hoover, all of that backlash over this abusive power 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:31.440 fell on Palmer, who was eventually forced to resign, and 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:35.160 Hoover meanwhile came away on scathes. But he did learn 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.600 a lesson from this, like he realized from watching the 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:39.440 fallout that you want to stay on the good side 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:41.760 of the politically powerful. When it seems like he took 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:44.000 that lesson to heart, actually read that even though Hoover 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.920 had about six hundred files on U. S. Senators and 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:50.280 congressmen by the time of his death. The FBI never 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.880 formally investigated or charged a member of Congress while Hoover 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:56.599 was in charge of it, rather than making enemies or 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.920 drawing attention to himself, who were just quietly collected dirt 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:02.240 on these guys in case he needed a favor from 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:04.640 them down the line. But that's not to say that 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:07.679 Hoover stayed off the public's radar completely. In fact, I'd 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:09.640 say the other big takeaway he had from the Palmer 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.360 raids was the importance of protecting your agency's image definitely. 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.760 And after Palmer resigned, Whover was quickly promoted to assistant 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.600 director of the Bureau of Investigation and then to director 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.160 just a few years later. And you know, whoever had 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:24.920 been gunning for this position for a while, and it 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.120 just wasn't what it was cracked up to be at first. 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.200 You know, the main problem was what you just mentioned. 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:33.600 So the agency was this pr nightmare. It had been 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:37.079 racked by scandal in recent years. The public didn't actually 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.000 place that much trust in the people working there, and 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:41.480 in fact, agents weren't even allowed to carry guns or 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:45.720 make arrest until which really shows you how little trust 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.560 the public had in them. Yeah, and from what I gather, 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.280 Whover really cleaned house when he took over there, Like 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:54.320 he fired everyone he considered to be political appointees or 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:58.240 just unqualified for the job. He instituted the strict policy 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:02.280 of background checks, interviews, physical tests for any new applicants, 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:05.360 and this kind of rigor was applied to everything, not 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.080 just hiring. There were some pretty weird rules he had 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:10.920 around there, like, for instance, Hoover even forbade his agents 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:14.360 from drinking coffee at work after eight fifteen in the morning. 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:17.840 Wait why, I don't know exactly, but I imagine it 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:20.480 was some sort of judgment on people needing these stimulants 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.760 that late in the work day after eight fifteen is late. 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.440 I guess weak agents, I guess so. At any rate, 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.280 Hoover whipped the bureau and the shape and Congress began 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:33.760 to take notice. They increased the agency's funding, which allowed 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:36.480 Hoover to develop the first crime lab for gathering and 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:40.200 analyzing evidence. And then, in nineteen thirty five, and pressed 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:42.840 with what Hoover had accomplished and his time as director, 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.240 Congress decided to make the Bureau of full fledged federal 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.440 agency and keep Hoover as its director. And you know 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.720 now that they're finally allowed to carry guns and make arrest. 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:56.360 The FBI actually turned its attention from these radical communist 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.840 groups to armed gangsters. So they're going after these folk heros, 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.640 pretty Boy Floyd and baby Face Nelson and this obviously 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:07.480 helped the agency's public perception when Hoover's cool, collected agents 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.959 started taking down these thugs. Yeah, you know, and Hoover 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:13.800 and his FBI agents were pretty much rock stars by 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.199 this point. In fact, I saw this old pole from 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:19.760 nineteen thirty six. There were eleven thousand American schoolboys who 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:21.959 were asked to vote on who they considered the most 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.800 popular man in the country. And this is just mind 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.640 boggling to me. So the president at the time was FDR. 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:29.720 He managed to land and I think it was like 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:34.320 seventh place, but the FBI director he came in second 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.840 second place. I don't even know how many people in 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.680 the US, how many school kids especially could name the 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.840 FBI director at this point. It's just unbelievable. Yeah, it's 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.240 super weird, but it does make me wonder who's in 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.240 that top spot. None other than Robert Ripley, you know, 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.720 the creator of Ripley's Believe it or not, I mean 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:56.120 that feels hard to believe. Well, times have definitely changed, 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.199 but you know, I do want to talk a little 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.400 bit more about the FBI's on pre sidented popularity and 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.120 I think it really speaks to Hoover's skills as a 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.160 PR man, which is ultimately what helped his agency weather 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.440 the political storms in the next forty year or so years. Well, 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:12.200 that sounds good to me, but first we should take 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:27.600 a quick break. You're listening to part Time Genius and 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.199 we're talking about the life and times of j Edgar Hoover. 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:32.560 All right, mango, So I want to talk about Hoover's 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.520 mastery of public relations because in a lot of ways, 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.440 he was really the first to bring Madison Avenue PR 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.240 techniques to Washington. And to give you an idea of 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.400 what I mean by this, I want to share this 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:45.920 quote from Mark am Bender, who is the author of 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:49.520 a book called Deep State Inside the Government Secrecy Industry. 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.520 So am Bender writes, quote, one of Hoover's first orders 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.000 of business after taking the helm at the newly meanted 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.760 FBI was to build an impenetrable shield of public support. 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:02.840 He knew that such support would be essential to surviving 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:06.280 the hostile political waters of Washington, but his efforts went 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.720 far beyond a few press releases. He encouraged the creation 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:14.080 of pulp magazines, bubblegum cards, and comics. Likewise, he worked 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.440 with Hollywood to produce films about gmen like Public Enemies, 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:21.640 Wife Show Them No Mercy, and the FBI story one film. 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:25.280 Public Enemy Number One even put Hoover in its ad campaign. 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.920 I mean, that's ridiculous when you think about Yeah, but 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.160 the common image that we have today of FBI special agents, 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.520 you know, you think the dark suits, the neck ties, 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.200 all that actually comes from these efforts, and it's endured 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:39.440 for you know, you think about it. Now, we're talking 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.200 about eighty years or so, and so it's no wonder 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.920 that all these school boys were looking up to him. Yeah, 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:46.880 I mean, it is amazing to think what a pr 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.400 genius he was. And I I did read up a 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.920 bit on Hoover's Hollywood connections, and it's crazy to think 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:56.040 how much sway the studios gave him. He even had 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:58.760 final say on which actors could be cast. So for 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:02.720 Public Enemy, whoever interviewed Jimmy Stewart beforehand and then had 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.400 to give his approval before the studio could use them. 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:08.520 I mean, that's especially funny because apparently Hoover considered the 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:12.080 movie It's a Wonderful Life to be communist propaganda. I've 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:14.480 read that before, but it's still just so weird. And 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:17.160 that was right after the movie was released in ninety 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:21.080 I mean, that's super strange. And you know, Whover clearly 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.400 like Jimmy Stewart, but the main character in that movie 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:26.720 is the selfless banker in a small town. It's hard 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:30.280 to imagine being against it for being communist, right, Well, 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.000 that's true, but the villain of the film, Mr Potter, 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:35.880 he was also a banker. And apparently that was enough 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.280 for the FBI to conclude that the movie quote deliberately 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.040 maligned the upper class. And it's kind of funny to 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:44.440 read these quotes at this point. And they must have 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:47.600 taken this charge pretty seriously too, because in ninety seven, 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.200 the House on American Activities Committee actually held a hearing 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.520 about this and there was a film critic there. His 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.160 name was John Charles Moffatt, and he was trying to 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:58.440 defend the movie in court. And here's what he said. 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.360 He said, I think Mr. Opper's picture, that it had 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:04.320 a banker as a villain, could not be properly called 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.040 a communist picture. It showed that the power of money 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:11.520 can be used oppressively and it can be used benevolently. Now, sadly, 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.320 Moffitt's defense fell on deaf ears because the FBI didn't 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.680 remove the film from its list of suspected propaganda until 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.600 nineteen fifty six. I mean, it's crazy to think the 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:25.560 FBI once blacklisted what's essentially the most wholesome holiday movie 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:29.800 of all time. I guess that in a way, like 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.360 who never really gave up on that work that he 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:35.440 did with Palmer, Like he continued monitoring anyone or anything 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:40.560 they saw his immoral or unpatriotic or suspect in any way, 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:44.640 especially communist. Well that's true. And actually one high profile 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.800 holdover from those Red Scare days was none other than 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:52.400 Charlie Chaplin. Hoover had worried about the British actors rising popularity. 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:54.720 He even tried to have him deported at one point, 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.560 that he could never make it really stick. Then then 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:01.280 some thirty odd years later, thirty years later, when Chaplin 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.760 left the country to promote his latest movie. Hoover seized 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:06.840 his chance and worked quickly with the I N S 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.840 to bar the entertainer from returning to the States. I mean, 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:14.200 think about that. He was holding this over him, really 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:17.440 hold a garage clearly. Yeah, and the plan worked too. 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.000 So Chaplin decided to stay in Europe and he didn't 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:22.560 come back to the U S until it was time. 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:25.320 I guess this was in I think nineteen seventy two. 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.800 He came back to pick up an honorary oscar that 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:31.240 he'd been awarded. I mean, that's just ridiculous. But you know, 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.720 I still think whover strangest target with that old Louis 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:38.160 Louis song that the King's been popularized in the early sixties, 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.439 And once that song became a hit, all these rumors 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:45.359 circulated that contained a secret message and had dirty words 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:47.879 if you played it backwards or at a slower speed. 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.320 And you know that there are tons of rumors like 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.920 this at the time, I mean famously with the Beatles 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:56.040 and and other bands, but uh, there never seemed to 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:58.919 be much to them really. Of course, you could never 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:02.680 convince the FBI of and especially after the entire state 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.960 of Indiana Ben Louis Louis from the radio in nineteen four. 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.960 That's when the FBI launched this massive investigation to determine 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.639 whether or not they were really hidden obscenities buried in 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:15.760 that song, because you know, if there had been, that 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.560 would have violated this Federal Code against the distribution of 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.359 obscene material toive minors. This is so strange, but I 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.000 will admit I love the idea of Hoover and his 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.560 g men just hunched over these record players like straining 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:31.639 to find these secret messages, slowing down this stupid song. 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:34.400 But you know, I'm assuming they never found anything, right, Yeah, 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:36.320 I mean, of course they didn't, but you know, it 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:39.080 wasn't for lack of trying. Agents actually listened to the 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:43.080 song at every speed imaginable, and they attended Kingsman shows 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.680 and interviewed the band members and even studied the statements 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.520 of teenagers who claimed to have cracked the song's codes. 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:54.439 But alas, after an exhaustive thirty months thirty months they 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.399 spent on this for an investigation, the FBI was forced 0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:59.199 to concede it had been a waste of time, and 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:03.080 that was like a great you some money and records, 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:05.880 but all they had to show for all their efforts 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:09.600 was some wildly off based transcriptions, and lucky for you 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:13.760 and me, those are now declassified documents that anyone can read. 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.720 So really, Yeah, so these are some of the actual 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:18.600 lyrics from Louis Louis that I'm going to read to you. 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.399 On the ship, I dreamed, she there, I smell the 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:26.199 rose in her hair. And after thirty months, this is 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:29.920 what Hoover's agents thought that line was. And on that 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:32.639 chair I lay her there, I felt my boner in 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:38.439 her hair. She just made that. Yeah, that's what it 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:44.120 actually says, is that terrible declassified government documents. I feel 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.920 like it needs to be classified again, I think so. 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.679 I mean I like that they were wildly grasping to 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:52.679 figure out what this was. That I do guess that 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:55.200 after listening to the same track for what did you say, 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:58.520 thirty months? I can imagine that you'd start hearing things 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.440 after that. Yeah. And while we've mostly talked about the 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:05.200 sillier side of Hoover's paranoia and these surveillance tactics, I 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:07.200 do want to make sure we talked about the serious 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.440 consequences of these power abuses, because you don't want those 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.199 loss in the shuffle. You know, throughout the fifties and 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:17.120 the sixties, Hoover's lists of terrorists and spies and communist 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:20.040 sympathizers was expanded to include anyone who's like an anti 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:24.000 war protester or civil rights leader or civil rights activist. 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:27.040 I mean, Hoover saw all these people as subversives, and 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:29.000 he saw them as a threat to the stability of 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:32.800 the American government, which is why he resorted to break 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:36.440