1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,000 Speaker 1: Guess what, mango, what's up? Well, so you remember that 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: show Rowan and Martin's laughing, right, Yeah, of course, Like 3 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: my sister and I were huge fans because my dad 4 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: had taped some sort of anniversary special for us, so 5 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: we used to watch all the time as kids. It 6 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: had like Goldie Hawn and Lily Tomlin, Sammy Davis Jr. 7 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: Was on it. It was it was great. It is 8 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: pretty amazing to see some of those old clips. Well, 9 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: in preparation for today's episode, I was reading this twenty 10 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: one page report and this thing was filed by the 11 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: FBI back in nineteen seventy one because apparently they were 12 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: not happy that the show had been making fun of 13 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: their untouchable director, you know, the j Edgar Hoover. And 14 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: I'd actually never looked at this report before, but it's 15 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: actually publicly available online now. And I remember we printed 16 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: a story about this in Mental Flaws a while back. 17 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: You remember this, So I don't remember the Mentalphi story, 18 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: but I do know that the FBI was mad about 19 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: the show's actors pretending that they were like talking to 20 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: Hoover through this bugged potted plant. Yeah, that was one 21 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: of them. And there were a few other sketches, but 22 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: my favorite is how ticked off they got it? What 23 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: now seems like the most harmless joke. In fact, it 24 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: was actually a knock knock joke. Are you ready to 25 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: hear this? I mean, you know I'm always ready for 26 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: a knock knock joke? Great, all right, here goes then 27 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: knock knock? Who's there? Hoover? Hoover? Who Hoover heard of 28 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: a seventy six year old policeman? That's it? Yeah, and 29 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: that for some reason has really ticked them off. And 30 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: in the report that's dumb joke, it's referred to as vicious. 31 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,199 Speaker 1: I mean, not only is it like a super mild joke, 32 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: it barely feels like a joke, I know, but the 33 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: fact that it spawned a twenty one page report is 34 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: just baffling. And if there's one thing we know, it's 35 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: that you didn't mess with j Edgar Hoover. So today 36 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: we're going to take a look back at how Hoover 37 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: rose to power, how we managed to expand that power 38 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: over several decades, and what that's meant for our country's 39 00:01:48,160 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 1: evolving relationship to the agency. So let's get started, ye AI. 40 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: Their podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will 41 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good friend 42 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: Mangesh Ticketer and on the other side of the soundproof 43 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: glass showing off his favorite vintage j Edgar Hoover buttons. 44 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: That's our friend and producer Tristan McNeil. Now, I do 45 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: want to be clear these are anti Hoover buttons from 46 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: the look of them. At least you've got what there's 47 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: one that says replaced j Edgar Hoover. He's got another 48 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: one that says j Edgar Hoover is listening to you. 49 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: And I actually can't make out that what you're closer 50 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: to a mango. What does that yellow one say? Yeah, 51 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,679 Speaker 1: it says j Edgar Hoover sleeps with a Nightlight to 52 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: oh Burn, I know it's probably my favorite, but Tristan 53 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: was actually telling me about these earlier, and apparently they're 54 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: all from the Vietnam were era when Hoover's abuses of 55 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,679 Speaker 1: power were first coming to light Well. Sleeps with a 56 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: Nightlight is definitely one of the tamer accusations leveled at 57 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: who were over the years, and after looking into the 58 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: history for today's show, it's easy to understand why he 59 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: remains such a controversial figure even today, from playing fast 60 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: and loose with civil liberties to collecting secret files on 61 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: innocent people. There's no question that Hoover's five decade reign 62 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: as FBI director came with some heavy costs for the 63 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: nation as a whole. Yet at the same time, it's 64 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: also clear that Hoover did a great deal of good 65 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: for his country, particularly during the early years of his tenure, 66 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: when he helped pioneer many new crime fighting measures. They're 67 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: still being used today, and these are things like fingerprint 68 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: files and investing in crime labs. So with that dichonomy 69 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: in mind, we're going to take a closer look at 70 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: the man behind the controversy and try to get a 71 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: better sense of both the good and the bad of 72 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: Hoover's lifelong reign. Yeah, and I think you hit the 73 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: nail on the head when you said lifelong, because you know, 74 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: he became director of the Bureau of Investigation way back 75 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: in four when he was just twenty nine years old, 76 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: and then when the Bureau reorganized and added federal to 77 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: its title, this was a nine five. Hoover stayed on 78 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: as director for an amazing forty eight more years. And 79 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: you know, just to put that run in perspective, keep 80 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: in mind that even with lifetime appointments, the longest serving 81 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: Supreme Court justice only lasted thirty six years. Yeah, and 82 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 1: you know, when you think about it, that kind of 83 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: career dedication, it did come at a steep price for him, 84 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: because you know, by most historians accounts, the man really 85 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: didn't have much of a private life. He never married 86 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: or had children, didn't have any notable hobbies or pastimes, 87 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: and there aren't many personal stories from his adult years 88 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: to shed life on who he was outside of the office. 89 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: And you know, usually it'd be easy to brush this off. 90 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: It's just saying it's typical for a workaholic. And some 91 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: historians suggest Hoover's lack of a private life was by design, though, 92 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: And I mean, for a guy whose life mission involved 93 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: collecting dirt on anyone and everyone, it does make sense 94 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: that he would have wanted his own life to be 95 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: as dirt free as possible. Right, But of course we 96 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,119 Speaker 1: know that didn't stop people from cooking up all kinds 97 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: of scandals and conspiracy theories about him anyway. And well, 98 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll get to those later. For now, I 99 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: do want to go back to Hoover's early years because 100 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: that's really our best chance to get a sense of 101 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: his personal life and who he was. Yeah, okay, I'm 102 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: done with that, but you're probably gonna have to do 103 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: the heavy lifting on this one, because I'm gonna share 104 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: with you the two facts I learned about his early life. 105 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: One he was born in Washington, D c. In eight 106 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: and two he apparently had a bad stutter. That's all 107 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: I got. I hope you've got more than that. It 108 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: doesn't feel like you really tried there. It is a start. 109 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: So Hoover actually grew up just a few blocks from 110 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: Capitol Hill, and he did, to your point, have a 111 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: stuttering problem. You know, he joins this long list of 112 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: famous people who stuttered. His kids, Joe Biden's on this list, 113 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: Winston Churchill, Moses was apparently a stutter. Um Marilyn Monroe 114 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: apparently her her breathy way of talking was just a 115 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: way to slow down her speech, so she didn't stutter. 116 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: But Hoover actually did the opposite. He competentated by talking 117 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: really quickly. Ain't taught himself to talk super fast, and 118 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: in fact, he got so adept at talking that he 119 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: joined the debate team in high school, where he was 120 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: known for spreading and using his cool, relentless logic, which 121 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: I guess sounds impressive until you realize he was arguing 122 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: against stuff like giving women the right to vote. You know, 123 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: I'm curious, though, what about Hoover's home life. Was he 124 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: close with his family or was he always more or 125 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: less aloof Yeah, so, Hoover did have two older siblings, 126 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: He had a brother and a sister, but he was 127 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: probably closest to his mother, and supposedly she was the 128 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: family's moral center and also the main disciplinarian. And given 129 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: those characteristics, I guess it makes sense that JEdgar Hoover 130 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: would have gravitated most to her. I mean, the two 131 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: of them stayed super close all through Hoover's life, and 132 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: they even lived together right up until her death. She 133 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: passed when Hoover was apparently forty three years old. And 134 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: so what about his dad? Well, Hoover's dad was this 135 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: low level government worker, which which is why they lived 136 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: so close to Capitol Hill, And unfortunately, he began to 137 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: suffer from a mental illness when Hoover was young, which 138 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: put a lot of pressure on his son and also 139 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: created something of a riff between them. And as one 140 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: of Hoover's cousins put it, Hoover couldn't really tolerate that fact. 141 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: He couldn't tolerate anything that was imperfect. It's not exactly 142 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: the warmest way to deal with the loved one's illness. 143 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: But all right, So that this, this makes Hoover the 144 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: breadwinner of his family at this point. So does he 145 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: go straight into law enforcement or what does he do next? Now, 146 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: Hoover's first foray into public service was actually as a 147 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: messenger at the Library of Congress. So he took the 148 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: gig in nineteen thirteen when he started attending college as 149 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: a law student. And you know, he's the successful upstart. 150 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: He gradually rose through the ranks over there for the 151 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: next four years. Then, once Hoover passed the bar examp, 152 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: he actually quit the library job, and the very next 153 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: day he took an entry level position as a clerk 154 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: at the Justice Department. But his time working at the 155 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: library deeply influenced Hoover, and, as he later wrote, the 156 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: job trained me on the value of collating material. He 157 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: gave me an excellent foundation for my work in the FBI, 158 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: where it's been necessary to collate information and evidence. Huh. 159 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: You know, I was actually reading about some of the 160 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: innovations Hoover made at the FBI, and one of them 161 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: was actually the addition of cross referencing to the agency's 162 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: filing system, So you can kind of see where he 163 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: got that idea exactly. But as formative as that first 164 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: job was, Hoover really started to come into his own 165 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: at the d o J. And in fact, just two 166 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: years after being hired as a clerk, Hoover had impressed 167 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: his superior so much that he was promoted to head 168 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: of the Bureau of Investigations General Intelligence Division. And at 169 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: this point, the US had entered World War One, so 170 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: Hoover's job was largely to gather intelligence on radical groups 171 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: within the country. All right, So this is the part 172 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: that I feel like we learned about in history class, 173 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: because this this is the red scare that we're talking 174 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: about now, right, Yeah, And and specifically, there was this 175 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: series of anarchist bombings in the US in nine and 176 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: one of them damaged the home of the Attorney General 177 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: at the time, this guy, Mitchell Palmer. So in retaliation, 178 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: Palmer had the General Intelligence Division carry out these raids 179 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: to arrest people suspected of being radicals, and over the 180 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: course of the next two years, these Palmer rays resulted in, 181 00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: like the rest of I want to say, thousands of 182 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: cused communists and anarchists, and several hundred of these people 183 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: were actually deported. Now were these raids legal. It sounds 184 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 1: like Hoover had authorization from his boss to conduct them. 185 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 1: But but did they have this big stack of search 186 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: warrants or anything like that. No. I mean that the 187 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: raids were definitely illegal, and there were other problems too. 188 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: So for one thing, most of the accused turned out 189 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: to be innocent, and many of the confessions that were 190 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: given were actually highly questionable. They seemed coorced. But luckily 191 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: for Hoover, all of that backlash over this abusive power 192 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: fell on Palmer, who was eventually forced to resign, and 193 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: Hoover meanwhile came away on scathes. But he did learn 194 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: a lesson from this, like he realized from watching the 195 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: fallout that you want to stay on the good side 196 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: of the politically powerful. When it seems like he took 197 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: that lesson to heart, actually read that even though Hoover 198 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: had about six hundred files on U. S. Senators and 199 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: congressmen by the time of his death. The FBI never 200 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: formally investigated or charged a member of Congress while Hoover 201 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,599 Speaker 1: was in charge of it, rather than making enemies or 202 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: drawing attention to himself, who were just quietly collected dirt 203 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: on these guys in case he needed a favor from 204 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: them down the line. But that's not to say that 205 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 1: Hoover stayed off the public's radar completely. In fact, I'd 206 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: say the other big takeaway he had from the Palmer 207 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: raids was the importance of protecting your agency's image definitely. 208 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: And after Palmer resigned, Whover was quickly promoted to assistant 209 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: director of the Bureau of Investigation and then to director 210 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: just a few years later. And you know, whoever had 211 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: been gunning for this position for a while, and it 212 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: just wasn't what it was cracked up to be at first. 213 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: You know, the main problem was what you just mentioned. 214 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: So the agency was this pr nightmare. It had been 215 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 1: racked by scandal in recent years. The public didn't actually 216 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: place that much trust in the people working there, and 217 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: in fact, agents weren't even allowed to carry guns or 218 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: make arrest until which really shows you how little trust 219 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: the public had in them. Yeah, and from what I gather, 220 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: Whover really cleaned house when he took over there, Like 221 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: he fired everyone he considered to be political appointees or 222 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: just unqualified for the job. He instituted the strict policy 223 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: of background checks, interviews, physical tests for any new applicants, 224 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: and this kind of rigor was applied to everything, not 225 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: just hiring. There were some pretty weird rules he had 226 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: around there, like, for instance, Hoover even forbade his agents 227 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: from drinking coffee at work after eight fifteen in the morning. 228 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: Wait why, I don't know exactly, but I imagine it 229 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: was some sort of judgment on people needing these stimulants 230 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: that late in the work day after eight fifteen is late. 231 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: I guess weak agents, I guess so. At any rate, 232 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: Hoover whipped the bureau and the shape and Congress began 233 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: to take notice. They increased the agency's funding, which allowed 234 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: Hoover to develop the first crime lab for gathering and 235 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: analyzing evidence. And then, in nineteen thirty five, and pressed 236 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: with what Hoover had accomplished and his time as director, 237 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: Congress decided to make the Bureau of full fledged federal 238 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: agency and keep Hoover as its director. And you know 239 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: now that they're finally allowed to carry guns and make arrest. 240 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: The FBI actually turned its attention from these radical communist 241 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: groups to armed gangsters. So they're going after these folk heros, 242 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: pretty Boy Floyd and baby Face Nelson and this obviously 243 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: helped the agency's public perception when Hoover's cool, collected agents 244 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: started taking down these thugs. Yeah, you know, and Hoover 245 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: and his FBI agents were pretty much rock stars by 246 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: this point. In fact, I saw this old pole from 247 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six. There were eleven thousand American schoolboys who 248 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 1: were asked to vote on who they considered the most 249 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: popular man in the country. And this is just mind 250 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: boggling to me. So the president at the time was FDR. 251 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: He managed to land and I think it was like 252 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: seventh place, but the FBI director he came in second 253 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: second place. I don't even know how many people in 254 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: the US, how many school kids especially could name the 255 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: FBI director at this point. It's just unbelievable. Yeah, it's 256 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: super weird, but it does make me wonder who's in 257 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: that top spot. None other than Robert Ripley, you know, 258 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: the creator of Ripley's Believe it or not, I mean 259 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: that feels hard to believe. Well, times have definitely changed, 260 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: but you know, I do want to talk a little 261 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: bit more about the FBI's on pre sidented popularity and 262 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: I think it really speaks to Hoover's skills as a 263 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: PR man, which is ultimately what helped his agency weather 264 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: the political storms in the next forty year or so years. Well, 265 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: that sounds good to me, but first we should take 266 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: a quick break. You're listening to part Time Genius and 267 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,199 Speaker 1: we're talking about the life and times of j Edgar Hoover. 268 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: All right, mango, So I want to talk about Hoover's 269 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: mastery of public relations because in a lot of ways, 270 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: he was really the first to bring Madison Avenue PR 271 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: techniques to Washington. And to give you an idea of 272 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: what I mean by this, I want to share this 273 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: quote from Mark am Bender, who is the author of 274 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: a book called Deep State Inside the Government Secrecy Industry. 275 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: So am Bender writes, quote, one of Hoover's first orders 276 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: of business after taking the helm at the newly meanted 277 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: FBI was to build an impenetrable shield of public support. 278 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: He knew that such support would be essential to surviving 279 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: the hostile political waters of Washington, but his efforts went 280 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: far beyond a few press releases. He encouraged the creation 281 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: of pulp magazines, bubblegum cards, and comics. Likewise, he worked 282 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: with Hollywood to produce films about gmen like Public Enemies, 283 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: Wife Show Them No Mercy, and the FBI story one film. 284 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: Public Enemy Number One even put Hoover in its ad campaign. 285 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: I mean, that's ridiculous when you think about Yeah, but 286 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: the common image that we have today of FBI special agents, 287 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: you know, you think the dark suits, the neck ties, 288 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: all that actually comes from these efforts, and it's endured 289 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: for you know, you think about it. Now, we're talking 290 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: about eighty years or so, and so it's no wonder 291 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: that all these school boys were looking up to him. Yeah, 292 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: I mean, it is amazing to think what a pr 293 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: genius he was. And I I did read up a 294 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: bit on Hoover's Hollywood connections, and it's crazy to think 295 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: how much sway the studios gave him. He even had 296 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: final say on which actors could be cast. So for 297 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: Public Enemy, whoever interviewed Jimmy Stewart beforehand and then had 298 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: to give his approval before the studio could use them. 299 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that's especially funny because apparently Hoover considered the 300 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: movie It's a Wonderful Life to be communist propaganda. I've 301 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: read that before, but it's still just so weird. And 302 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: that was right after the movie was released in ninety 303 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: I mean, that's super strange. And you know, Whover clearly 304 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: like Jimmy Stewart, but the main character in that movie 305 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: is the selfless banker in a small town. It's hard 306 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: to imagine being against it for being communist, right, Well, 307 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: that's true, but the villain of the film, Mr Potter, 308 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: he was also a banker. And apparently that was enough 309 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: for the FBI to conclude that the movie quote deliberately 310 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: maligned the upper class. And it's kind of funny to 311 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: read these quotes at this point. And they must have 312 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: taken this charge pretty seriously too, because in ninety seven, 313 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: the House on American Activities Committee actually held a hearing 314 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: about this and there was a film critic there. His 315 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: name was John Charles Moffatt, and he was trying to 316 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: defend the movie in court. And here's what he said. 317 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: He said, I think Mr. Opper's picture, that it had 318 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: a banker as a villain, could not be properly called 319 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: a communist picture. It showed that the power of money 320 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: can be used oppressively and it can be used benevolently. Now, sadly, 321 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: Moffitt's defense fell on deaf ears because the FBI didn't 322 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: remove the film from its list of suspected propaganda until 323 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty six. I mean, it's crazy to think the 324 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: FBI once blacklisted what's essentially the most wholesome holiday movie 325 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: of all time. I guess that in a way, like 326 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: who never really gave up on that work that he 327 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: did with Palmer, Like he continued monitoring anyone or anything 328 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: they saw his immoral or unpatriotic or suspect in any way, 329 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: especially communist. Well that's true. And actually one high profile 330 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: holdover from those Red Scare days was none other than 331 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: Charlie Chaplin. Hoover had worried about the British actors rising popularity. 332 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: He even tried to have him deported at one point, 333 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: that he could never make it really stick. Then then 334 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: some thirty odd years later, thirty years later, when Chaplin 335 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: left the country to promote his latest movie. Hoover seized 336 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: his chance and worked quickly with the I N S 337 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: to bar the entertainer from returning to the States. I mean, 338 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: think about that. He was holding this over him, really 339 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: hold a garage clearly. Yeah, and the plan worked too. 340 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: So Chaplin decided to stay in Europe and he didn't 341 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: come back to the U S until it was time. 342 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: I guess this was in I think nineteen seventy two. 343 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: He came back to pick up an honorary oscar that 344 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: he'd been awarded. I mean, that's just ridiculous. But you know, 345 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: I still think whover strangest target with that old Louis 346 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: Louis song that the King's been popularized in the early sixties, 347 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: And once that song became a hit, all these rumors 348 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: circulated that contained a secret message and had dirty words 349 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: if you played it backwards or at a slower speed. 350 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: And you know that there are tons of rumors like 351 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: this at the time, I mean famously with the Beatles 352 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: and and other bands, but uh, there never seemed to 353 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: be much to them really. Of course, you could never 354 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: convince the FBI of and especially after the entire state 355 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: of Indiana Ben Louis Louis from the radio in nineteen four. 356 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: That's when the FBI launched this massive investigation to determine 357 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: whether or not they were really hidden obscenities buried in 358 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: that song, because you know, if there had been, that 359 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: would have violated this Federal Code against the distribution of 360 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: obscene material toive minors. This is so strange, but I 361 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: will admit I love the idea of Hoover and his 362 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: g men just hunched over these record players like straining 363 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: to find these secret messages, slowing down this stupid song. 364 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 1: But you know, I'm assuming they never found anything, right, Yeah, 365 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: I mean, of course they didn't, but you know, it 366 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: wasn't for lack of trying. Agents actually listened to the 367 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: song at every speed imaginable, and they attended Kingsman shows 368 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: and interviewed the band members and even studied the statements 369 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: of teenagers who claimed to have cracked the song's codes. 370 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: But alas, after an exhaustive thirty months thirty months they 371 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: spent on this for an investigation, the FBI was forced 372 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: to concede it had been a waste of time, and 373 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: that was like a great you some money and records, 374 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: but all they had to show for all their efforts 375 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: was some wildly off based transcriptions, and lucky for you 376 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: and me, those are now declassified documents that anyone can read. 377 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: So really, Yeah, so these are some of the actual 378 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: lyrics from Louis Louis that I'm going to read to you. 379 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: On the ship, I dreamed, she there, I smell the 380 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: rose in her hair. And after thirty months, this is 381 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: what Hoover's agents thought that line was. And on that 382 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: chair I lay her there, I felt my boner in 383 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 1: her hair. She just made that. Yeah, that's what it 384 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: actually says, is that terrible declassified government documents. I feel 385 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: like it needs to be classified again, I think so. 386 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: I mean I like that they were wildly grasping to 387 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: figure out what this was. That I do guess that 388 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: after listening to the same track for what did you say, 389 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: thirty months? I can imagine that you'd start hearing things 390 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: after that. Yeah. And while we've mostly talked about the 391 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: sillier side of Hoover's paranoia and these surveillance tactics, I 392 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: do want to make sure we talked about the serious 393 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: consequences of these power abuses, because you don't want those 394 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: loss in the shuffle. You know, throughout the fifties and 395 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 1: the sixties, Hoover's lists of terrorists and spies and communist 396 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: sympathizers was expanded to include anyone who's like an anti 397 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: war protester or civil rights leader or civil rights activist. 398 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: I mean, Hoover saw all these people as subversives, and 399 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: he saw them as a threat to the stability of 400 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: the American government, which is why he resorted to break 401 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: ins and wire taps and legal bugs. It was all 402 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: a means to cripple their influence. Yeah, and Hoover's treatment 403 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: of Martin Luther King Jr. Was especially chilling to me, 404 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: and I actually kind of hate reading about this. But 405 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: Whover suspected him of communist leaning, so he ordered King's 406 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: bedroom bugged, and then he even sent a copy of 407 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: the recordings to King and his wife. But probably the 408 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: worst part of that was the tape was accompanied by 409 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: this anonymous letter that actually encouraged King to bits suicide. 410 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: It says, King, look into your heart. The American people 411 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 1: would know you for what you are, an evil, abnormal beast. 412 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: There is only one way out for you. You better 413 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: take it before you're filthy, abnormal, fraudulent self is bared 414 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: to the nation. I mean, I don't even know how 415 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: you come up with those kinds of words. It's just 416 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: it's it's terrible. But you know, you figure anonymous or not, 417 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: the King's had to know these tapes were from the FBI, 418 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: and because by this point where it had gotten out 419 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: about Hoover's practices, and I just would think it would 420 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: be fairly easy to guess on this one. Yeah, I mean, 421 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: it is funny. You watched like talk shows like The 422 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: View or other things, and and people have such polarized 423 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: opinions of Hoover. You know, some people almost regard him 424 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 1: as like an ethical and and saint like character. And 425 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: and on the other hand, you hear about these abuses 426 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: to someone like Martin Luther King, and and it's just 427 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 1: hard to picture this person as anything but gray. And um, 428 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, when you put yourself in Martin Luther King's 429 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: shoes too, it's hard to imagine what it would have 430 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: felt like to have your own country, like your own government, 431 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 1: gunning for you like that, and you know there's absolutely 432 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: nothing you can do about it, right, It's terrifying. I've 433 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: actually heard that theory that Hoover was worried King might 434 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: go communist. But but there's this biographer, um, this writer 435 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: named Richard Hack who actually subscribed to a totally different theory, 436 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: and he thinks that Hoover felt insulted because King had 437 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: ignored a call from him during the early days of 438 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: the Civil Rights movement. And you know, as we talked 439 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: about earlier, UM, Hoover could obviously hold a grudge. But 440 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: according to Hack, quote from that one unanswered phone call, 441 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: for the rest of King's life, he did not have 442 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: a free moment from the specter of j Edgar Hoover. Ever, 443 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: he tapped him, he followed him. In some sense, Hoover 444 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,719 Speaker 1: was jealous of MLK. He had a wife, he had 445 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: a family, he had authority, he had respect, he had everything, 446 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: and Hoover was jealous. I mean, it's an interesting take, 447 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: and I hadn't heard that before. But you know, since 448 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: we're starting to theorize a bit about Hoover's mo motives, 449 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: I feel like we got to keep the ball rolling 450 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: and look at some of the other theories surrounding his 451 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: life and his work. Definitely, and of course there are 452 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: a ton of juicy rumors out there about someone as 453 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: controversial as Hoover, and I bet some folks will be 454 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: shocked to learn just how a few of them really 455 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: hold water. But before we played detective ourselves, we should 456 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: take another quick break, okay, Mango. So earlier we talked 457 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: about how Hoover was able to sort of shape the 458 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: image of the FBI using pop culture and also just 459 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: by virtue of the bureau's more patriotic operations. You think 460 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: about rooting out Communist spies and Nazi saboteurs, for instance, 461 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: But I got the sense while researching that Hoover was 462 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: also a master craftsman of his own image. Did you 463 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: get that feeling too, Yeah, I mean it kind of 464 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: goes back to that idea of who were not having 465 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: a private life, and that was all by design, Like 466 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: he was able to foster this air of mystery for 467 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: himself that really kept people guessing about his true intentions 468 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: and what he might be up to. And this was 469 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: true of both in the office and at home. And 470 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: while that certainly gave him a leg up in this 471 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: political arena where no one was ever truly sure of 472 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: what Hoover might have on them, it also made him 473 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: the target of plenty of samary campaigns and conspiracy theories right, 474 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: and probably the most famous of those is that Jagger 475 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: Hoover was gay, that he liked to dress in women's clothes. 476 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: And at first I thought these rumors caught on only 477 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: after his death, but you can actually see little hints 478 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: of them forming back in the nineteen thirties. For instance, 479 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: there was a magazine article back then that referred to 480 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: Hoover's mincing gait and how it diplomated. A party had 481 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: commented on Hoover's quote conspicuous perfume, and then decades later 482 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: story started to surface about how someone had seen a 483 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 1: photo of Hoover and an evening gown, or they've been 484 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: invited to a secret party throne and everyone there was 485 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: cross dressing. But none of these claims were ever substantiated, 486 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: and and really a few have even been debunked entirely. Yeah, So, 487 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: the most compelling evidence I've seen of Hoover being gay 488 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: was his relationship with Clyde Toulson, who was the second 489 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: in command of the FBI for over forty years, and 490 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,120 Speaker 1: during that time, the pair definitely gave people a lot 491 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: to talk about, like they were both lifelong bachelors. They 492 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: wrote to work and dined together daily, they vacation together. 493 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: They sometimes wore matching suits to the office. Plus when uh, 494 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: when Hoover died, he left most of his estate to Tulson, 495 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: and at his funeral too, it was actually Toulson who 496 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: collected the folded American flag that gets handed out by 497 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: the government. But really that closeness is all there is 498 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: to go on. Like, Hoover and Tolson were the epitome 499 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: of professionalism by all accounts, so if there was anything 500 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: romantic between them, they kept it to themselves. And of 501 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: course there are plenty of historians that point out that 502 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: if the men were actually anything beyond just colleagues, they 503 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: probably wouldn't have allowed themselves to be constantly seen together 504 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: in public. Like Hoover was just way too discreet and 505 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: cautious for something like that. You know, it kind of 506 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: reminds me of the case you hear about political science 507 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: called non falsifiable hypothesis, which is basically when something is 508 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: impossible to disprove because there isn't any proof for it 509 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: one way or the other, so you just kind of 510 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: went up stuck forever in this state of uncertainty. Yeah, 511 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: but more than that, none of it should really matter anyway, right, Like, 512 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 1: I mean, times have changed so much since Hoover's heyday, 513 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: so you know, of course being gay or or wearing 514 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: women's clothing isn't as scandalous as it might have been 515 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: back then. But even without the moral stigma attached talking 516 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: about whether Hoover was or wasn't these things really just 517 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: distracts from what we know about him for certain, which 518 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: is his work. Like there's so much to talk about 519 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: their well, definitely, and it does seem ironic that so 520 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: many of us are still wrapped up in a guessing 521 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: game about the sexuality of a guy who made his 522 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: name by spreading these unsubstantiated rumors about people. I mean, 523 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: we really can't take him to task for that if 524 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 1: we wind up doing the same kind of thing to him. Yeah, 525 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that's a good point. I am 526 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 1: curious that how did Hoover's abuses of hour come out 527 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: in the end, because obviously it wasn't any rumors or 528 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 1: personal scandals that brought him down, so what was it? Well? 529 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 1: I was curious about this too, because I've known for 530 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: a while that it was mostly after Hoover's death, that 531 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: a lot of these misdeeds came to light. But what 532 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: I didn't know was that it was actually a group 533 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: of burglars who got the ball rolling on that. And 534 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: that was back in March of nineteen seventy one. This 535 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: was just a little over a year before Hoover actually died. Now, 536 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: these burglars were were a group of peace demonstrators and 537 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: they were hoping to spark a conversation about the FBI's 538 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: un checked surveillance power. And so to do this, they 539 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: decided to break into a small FBI office just outside Philadelphia, 540 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: and they decided to steal as many of Jagger Hoover's 541 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 1: secrets as they possibly could. I mean, this sounds remarkable, right, Like, 542 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: it's stunning that this happened. But how did these people 543 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: pull it off? Well, part of it was that they 544 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: picked the perfect night to pull this heist, because this 545 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: was on March eighth, nineteen seventy one, and this was 546 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: the night of the landmark fight of the century, you know, 547 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: this was between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frasier. So while 548 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: the burglars were busy prying open the door of the 549 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: FBI office and snatching these files inside you had millions 550 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: of Americans just glued to their TV set kind of 551 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: watching these updates on that fifteen round boxing match. That's 552 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: really amazing. And this plan worked, Apparently they did. The 553 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: burglars got away and more than enough evidence with them 554 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 1: to prove that Hoover had been using the FBI to 555 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: illegally spy on everyone from peace activists to civil rights leaders, 556 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: movie stars, senators, and on and on. But you know, 557 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,239 Speaker 1: not long after the break in, the thieves sent this 558 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: anonymous package to a Washington Post reporter named Betsy Medsker. 559 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: Now inside was a packet of incriminating secret documents, which 560 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: naturally Betty wrote about and published in short order. But 561 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: the best part was that the FBI never managed to 562 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: catch these burglars. Despite Hoover putting more than two hundred 563 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: agents on the case, no arrest were ever made, and 564 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: the case was officially closed in nineteen seventy six, And 565 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: just two years later, Congress passed the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, 566 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: and it made it so that a warrant is needed 567 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: to monitor any private citizen. Well, I am glad that 568 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: something good came from all of this, And still it's 569 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: crazy to me that it took so long for someone 570 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: to finally spill the beans on what who have been 571 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: doing for like fifty years at that point, I mean, 572 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: and all that time, you think that someone would have 573 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: tried to find dirt on him sooner rather than just 574 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: like gossiping that you know, he may or may not 575 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: be gay. Actually, the FBI had been spying on its 576 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: own director for years by that point. There were special 577 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: agents from the Washington Field office of the FBI that 578 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: were regularly assigned to watch Hoover around in secret and 579 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: and even monitor his house at night. And the operation 580 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: had the name who watched which who was appropriate? Yeah, 581 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: but it proved less than effective because of course, I mean, 582 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: this is this is jed Or Hoover. He caught on 583 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: quickly to the fact that he was being watched. Yeah, 584 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: I mean, this just seem that coming right. I don't 585 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: think you can out snoop a professional snooper. But I 586 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: don't know. That's the old thing. That is the old saying. 587 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: We all know that one. But but I am curious, 588 00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: when it's all said and done, how do you think 589 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: we should look back on whover? I mean, it's it's 590 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: pretty obvious that school kids aren't going to rank him 591 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: as highly as they did in the nineteen thirties, But 592 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: writing off his entire career doesn't seem right either. Yeah, 593 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: I mean whover his name still adorns the building at 594 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: the FBI headquarters, and I actually think that's a pretty 595 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: apt metaphor for how to approach his legacy in general. Like, 596 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: at one point the name was there as a sign 597 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: of respect and a show of honor, but now people 598 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: actually say it feels more like a warning of what 599 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: not to do. So, even though some members of Congress 600 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: have pushed for the name to be removed, and you know, 601 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: you can definitely understand why that is, there's this case 602 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: for keeping it there as a reminder of both parts 603 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: of his legacy. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 604 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: In fact, I read this article by a Hoover biographer 605 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: named Kenneth Ackerman, and he had a similar take to 606 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: what we're talking about here. So here's what he wrote. 607 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: Who relieves a bipolar legacy? For better or worse? He 608 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: built the FBI into a modern national organization, stressing professionalism 609 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: and scientific crime fighting. For most of his life, Americans 610 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: considered him ma hero. He made the g Man brand 611 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: so popular that at its height, it was harder to 612 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: become an FBI agent than to be accepted to an 613 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: Ivy League college. But he also stands as a reminder 614 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: that forty eight years of power concentrated in one person 615 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: is a recipe for abuse. Alright, well, before we close 616 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: the book on the cautionary tail that is j Edgar Hoover, 617 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: I do think we should dish a little more dirt 618 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: on him in today's fact off, although I'm not sure 619 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: that either of us are going to be able to 620 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: top Tristan's bombshell about Hoover's sleeping with a night light. 621 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: But but, but let's give it a shot. So you 622 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: started the show by talking about the FBI's irritation with 623 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: laugh In and how Hoover really didn't seem to have 624 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: a sense of humor. And there's another good story along 625 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: those lines, and it's about Mad Magazine, a magazine both 626 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,239 Speaker 1: of us loved his kids. So apparently there was an 627 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: issue from the mid fifties that are at the Bureau 628 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: because it include the silly game about draft dodging, and 629 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: the idea was that if you did well in the game, 630 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: you were then invited to write a letter directly to 631 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: Hoover requesting a membership card that would classify you as 632 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: a full fledged draft dodger, and agents actually visited the 633 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: Mad offices after this came out in New York City, 634 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: and uh and William Gaines, the publisher and the legendary editor. 635 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: He ended up writing his own letter to the director, 636 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: apologizing and promising never to make fun of Hoover again. 637 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: And you know, of course he couldn't help himself, like 638 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: he broke that promise a few years later when he 639 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: started referring to Hoover as a vacuum cleaner, calling him 640 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: the Honorable j Edgar Electrolux. That's good, all right, well, 641 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: speaking of comedy, of the many, many things Betty White 642 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: has done in her incredible career, one of them was 643 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: playing the role of some of the FBI's most wanted 644 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: in a show that was called This Is Your FBI. 645 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: The show was actually endorsed by Hoover himself, and it 646 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: was really just dramatizations of the actual FBI cases. I'm 647 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: not sure if this is on Netflix, but we need 648 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: to look up the role she played back nine. The 649 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: episode was called The Larcenous Bride. I've got to see this. Yeah, 650 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: that sounds great. So we've all seen this iconic photo 651 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: of Elvis and Nixon together and Elvis's White House visit, 652 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: But what many people might not remember is that Elvis 653 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: was actually there to petition to become an undercover agent. 654 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: So it all letter to Nixon, Elvis wrote, quote, I've 655 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: done an in depth study of drug abuse and communist 656 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: brainwashing techniques, and I'm right in the middle of the 657 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: whole thing where I can and will do the most good. 658 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: I mean, that's just such an outrageous statement. But it's 659 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: also crazy to think that Elvis showed up for this 660 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: like unannounced visit to the White House to see the President, 661 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: and he was carrying two guns at the time, like 662 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: one was for his own protection, the other was this gift, 663 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: I guess for Nixon, And for some reason, the FBI 664 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: was impressed enough that they gave him permits to carry 665 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: a gun in every state. It's even more surprising when 666 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: you consider that the FBI had this file on Elvis 667 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: of several hundred pages. But the incident actually helped to 668 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: fuel the conspiracy theory that Elvis isn't dead, he's just 669 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: gone undercover. Yeah, clearly, I mean, I get it, that's 670 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: probably what happened. Well, six hundred pages does seem like 671 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: a big file, but it's actually only a third as 672 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: long as the eighteen hundred page file the FBI had 673 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: on Einstein. I guess his German heritage was always concerning 674 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: to the FBI, and they suspect that he might be 675 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 1: a German spy. And so when Einstein got involved in 676 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: the Manhattan Project, and FBI reports stated in view of 677 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,800 Speaker 1: his radical background, the office would not recommend the employment 678 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: of Dr Einstein on matters of secret nature without a 679 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: very careful investigation, as it seems unlikely that amand of 680 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: his background in such short time became a loyal American citizen. 681 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 1: That's crazy. I mean, it is entertaining to read through 682 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: the publicly available files and celebrities. And another one was 683 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: the Grateful Dead, which the FBI originally referred to by 684 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: saying it would appear this is a rock group of 685 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: some sort, which I agree with, and later that, uh, 686 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: the LSD originates from Sam Francisco through a renowned rock 687 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: group known as Grateful Dead. But apparently there's no real 688 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 1: investigation that ever seemed to be carried out. Wow, so 689 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: it all came out of the Grateful Dead all of 690 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: the beginning. Well, one person the FBI probably liked a 691 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: lot was Colonel Sanders. He was a big fan of 692 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: Hoover and even invited him to his birthday party one time. This, 693 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: of course, you can find in Sanders FBI file. But 694 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: unfortunately for the colonel, Hoover declined the invitation. I mean, 695 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: I love to go to that party. Ain't no party 696 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: like a Colonel Sanders party, I feel like I think so. Yeah. 697 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: But there were some artists who were bold enough to 698 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: stand up to Hoover, like John Steinbeck was one. He 699 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: wasn't a fan of being spied on, and in one 700 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: letter to the Attorney General he wrote, do you suppose 701 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 1: you could ask Edgar's boys to stop stepping on my heels? 702 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: They think I am an enemy alien. It is getting tiresome. 703 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: And you know, Hoover actually responded to this. He he wrote, 704 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: I wish to advise that Steinbeck is not being and 705 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: has never been investigated by the Bureau. And of course 706 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: this didn't stop the FBI from continue to track Steinbeck's 707 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: actions for another fifteen years or so. Wow. You know, 708 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: since Hoover's passing Congress has a ten year limit on 709 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 1: being FBI director. Now, of course, Hoover served eight different 710 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 1: presidents and had an insanely long tenure. But even then, 711 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: he shouldn't have been allowed to keep the position for 712 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: so long because the government used to have this mandatory 713 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: retirement age of seventy But then LBJ lifted the restriction, 714 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: you know, just for his pal Hoover. Well, speaking of that, 715 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: did you know Nixon once tried to fire Hoover. This 716 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: was in nineteen seventy one, but he lost his nerve 717 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: during the conversation and he accidentally increased Hoover's powers to 718 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: expand the FBI's powers abroad. Instead. It sounds like a 719 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: failed breakup or thenner or something. But well, here's you 720 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 1: get engaged. Yes, whoops, all right, well here's what I love. 721 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: Apparently Jagger Hoover made lots of notes in the margins 722 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: of memos. I guess it was kind of his thing. 723 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: And once he was handed a memo with a really 724 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: narrow margin, and he wrote, watched the borders in the side, 725 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: but the age it's who got it totally misunderstood that 726 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: he was talking about the page layout and instead started 727 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: hounding Border Patrol for suspicious activities. That's really funny. I 728 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: love that. And uh, while I normally would say you 729 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: deserve the honor, I'd instead like to give it to 730 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: Undercover Elvis, who's been working so hard on all our 731 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: behalf for so many years now. That just feels appropriate. 732 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: Thank you, Undercover Elvis, and thank you guys for listening. 733 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: If we've forgotten any great facts about Jack or whoever, 734 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from you. Part Time Genius and 735 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works dot com. You can always call our 736 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: fact hot line seven Fact Hotline that's one eight four 737 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: four pt Genius, or hit us up on Facebook or Twitter. 738 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: But thanks so much for listening, Thanks again for listening. 739 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,800 Speaker 1: Part Time Genius is a production of How Stuff Works 740 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 1: and wouldn't be possible without several brilliant people who do 741 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: the important things we couldn't even begin to understand. Tristan 742 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: McNeil does the editing thing. Noel Brown made the theme 743 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: song and does the mixy mixy sound thing. Jerry Rowland 744 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: does the exact producer thing. Gave Louesier is our lead researcher, 745 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: with support from the research Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan 746 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: Brown and Lucas Adams and Eves. Jeff Cook gets the 747 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 1: show to your ears. Good job, Eves. If you like 748 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 1: what you heard, we hope you'll subscribe. And if you 749 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 1: really really like what you've heard, maybe you could leave 750 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 1: a good review for us. Do we do we forget Jason? 751 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: Jason who