WEBVTT - Mueller Testimony Fails to Energize Trump Probes

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

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<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Democrats tried to

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<v Speaker 1>construct a narrative that the report showed that President Trump

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<v Speaker 1>was guilty of obstruction of justice. At one point, Congressman

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<v Speaker 1>Hachem Jeffreys of New York went through the elements of

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<v Speaker 1>obstruction of justice and showed the points in the report

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<v Speaker 1>that met those elements. And then when he ended, though,

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<v Speaker 1>Robert Mueller decided to sort of way lay him and

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<v Speaker 1>dispute a little bit about what he said. No one

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<v Speaker 1>is above the law. No one the president must be

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<v Speaker 1>held accountable one way or the other. Let me let

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<v Speaker 1>me just say, if I might, I don't subscribe necessarily

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<v Speaker 1>to your um the way you analyze that. I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>saying it's out of the ballpark, but I'm not supportive

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<v Speaker 1>of that analytical charge. And those were the kind of

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<v Speaker 1>responses that we heard from Robert Mueller. Not supportive of

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<v Speaker 1>the charge. I don't necessarily agree with what you said.

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<v Speaker 1>I refer you to the report generally accurate, very little disagreeing,

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<v Speaker 1>except when it was discussed that the allegation by Republicans

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<v Speaker 1>that the members of his team were politically biased joining

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<v Speaker 1>us Now is Robert Mints, a partner at McCarter and

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<v Speaker 1>English and a former federal prosecutor, Bob Anyone listening to

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<v Speaker 1>this and hearing it in a vacuum, not knowing what

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<v Speaker 1>had gone on. What do you suppose they would make

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<v Speaker 1>of his three hours of testimony? Well, that's a great question,

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<v Speaker 1>because it's almost as if there were two different movies

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<v Speaker 1>being watched here. It's been referred to at the report

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<v Speaker 1>was was long, was four hund or forty eight pages,

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<v Speaker 1>and nobody read it, and this is gonna be the

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<v Speaker 1>movie version that was going to be a riveting experience

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<v Speaker 1>for millions of Americans. I don't think they got that.

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<v Speaker 1>He really had lots of long winded speeches from both sides,

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<v Speaker 1>cross examination, leading questions. Nobody was able to draw Mueller

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<v Speaker 1>out into giving any kind of a narrative. He never

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<v Speaker 1>added any color, any background, He provided no further insights

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<v Speaker 1>into how he reached any of his conclusions, and at

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<v Speaker 1>the end of the day. It was difficult for Democrats

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<v Speaker 1>to even got the single sound bite they were hoping

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<v Speaker 1>to get. I think maybe the best they got was

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<v Speaker 1>when Mueller said the president was not exculpated for the

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<v Speaker 1>acts he allegedly committed. Uh. And and even that is uh,

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<v Speaker 1>is not the greatest sound bite after what is it now?

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<v Speaker 1>What three hours of testimony? One thing we did learn

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<v Speaker 1>is that from the very outset, Muller and his team

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<v Speaker 1>agreed to the Office of Legal Counsel's opinion that a

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<v Speaker 1>president cannot be indicted. So everything they did after that

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<v Speaker 1>was based on that. Could that color the way they

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<v Speaker 1>viewed the evidence? Yet to me, that is the biggest

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<v Speaker 1>puzzle about all of this that's never really been clearly answered,

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<v Speaker 1>And I was hoping that Mueller might shed some light

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<v Speaker 1>on that, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

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<v Speaker 1>Because when Bill Barr, the a G testified to Congress,

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<v Speaker 1>he told Congress he asked Muller to reach a conclusion

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<v Speaker 1>on all crimes. And yet as to obstruction of justice,

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<v Speaker 1>we know that Mueller didn't didn't do that. It was

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<v Speaker 1>really a situation where Mueller looked at the d J

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<v Speaker 1>guidelines and decided that he could conclude that there was

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<v Speaker 1>no evidence, as he did on the collusion or uh

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<v Speaker 1>conspiracy part of it, that there was insufficient evidence to

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<v Speaker 1>bring criminal charges. But on the other on the flip

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<v Speaker 1>side of the coin, whether or not there there might

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<v Speaker 1>be sufficient evidence to charge obstruction. He said that the

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<v Speaker 1>DJ guidelines prohibited prohibited him from reaching that conclusion. And

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<v Speaker 1>then there's a second d J guideline that also says

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<v Speaker 1>that you can't add talk about an unindicted co conspirator.

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<v Speaker 1>So not only could he not reach a conclusion about

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<v Speaker 1>whether a crime was committed, but he also couldn't even

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<v Speaker 1>explain the underlying facts that might have ultimately influenced somebody

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<v Speaker 1>down the road to decide whether a crime was committed.

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<v Speaker 1>So from the very beginning, this was sort of a

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<v Speaker 1>doomed investigation. To me, that is the biggest puzzle as

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<v Speaker 1>to why Mueller approached it this way, Why he viewed

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<v Speaker 1>his mandate as allowing him to decide that no crime

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<v Speaker 1>has been committed, but at the same time he was

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<v Speaker 1>prohibited from this from making the opposite conclusion. I gotta

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<v Speaker 1>ask about some of the GOP strategy which was to

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<v Speaker 1>really come at Mueller hard to undermine the integrity of

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<v Speaker 1>the testimony, are really the report itself? Was that a

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<v Speaker 1>smart move on the Republicans part? Did it or did

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<v Speaker 1>it make them look like they were kind of ganging

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<v Speaker 1>up on a man who has served his country both

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<v Speaker 1>in uniform and and in civil service. Well, I guess

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<v Speaker 1>we'll have to see how it plays out. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>one thing Mueller did, I thought effectively, and I'm sure

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<v Speaker 1>this was by design. He was not going to be

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<v Speaker 1>drawn into the political fray here by either side. The

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<v Speaker 1>Democrats had the advantage of being able to ask these

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<v Speaker 1>long leading questions where they quoted directly from his report,

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<v Speaker 1>and Mueller would simply say, yes, you're essentially reading my

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<v Speaker 1>report correctly. Um. But the Republicans didn't didn't have that

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<v Speaker 1>because they wanted to get into the question of how

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<v Speaker 1>this investigation began, and that was clearly not something that

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<v Speaker 1>Mueller was going to go down. That was that goes

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<v Speaker 1>into the whole internal workings of the investigation and the

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<v Speaker 1>type of things that he said at the very beginning

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<v Speaker 1>of this of a testimony he was not going to

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<v Speaker 1>get into. So instead you did have Republicans, as you say,

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<v Speaker 1>going aggressively after him UH, and really giving sort of

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<v Speaker 1>long speeches and really challenging, I thought, in in a

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<v Speaker 1>very aggressive way, um, the integrity not only of the investigation,

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<v Speaker 1>but of Robert Mueller himself. And I guess we'll have

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<v Speaker 1>to see you the days ahead. Whether that was a

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<v Speaker 1>smart move by the Republicans, I think that in his

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<v Speaker 1>second session, so there was a first session, there's a

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<v Speaker 1>little break. He did come back a little bit more.

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<v Speaker 1>He did speak a little bit more, if you can

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<v Speaker 1>call two or three sentences speak a little bit more.

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<v Speaker 1>But and at one thing that he did do is

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<v Speaker 1>he did defend or try to defend the integrity of

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<v Speaker 1>the people that worked for him and as far as

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<v Speaker 1>contributions they'd made to Democrats, he said that I've never

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<v Speaker 1>asked that question of anyone. So, as a former prosecutor,

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<v Speaker 1>let me ask you, in all your time in UH

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<v Speaker 1>as a federal prosecutor, were you ever asked about what

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<v Speaker 1>your political affiliations were? No, you're you're not asked that question.

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<v Speaker 1>When you're hired by the Department of Justice. There are

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<v Speaker 1>limitations that prohibit somebody who is works with Department of

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<v Speaker 1>Justice from getting involved in politics. The hattack prevents you

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<v Speaker 1>from being actively involved in politics, but it doesn't stop

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<v Speaker 1>you from making a contribution to one political candidate or another.

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<v Speaker 1>And so the policy department justice has always been not

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<v Speaker 1>to get into someone's political affiliation, because once you open

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<v Speaker 1>that door, if you think about it, now, now you've

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<v Speaker 1>you've created a situation where where politics and somebody's political leanings,

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<v Speaker 1>whatever those might be, have become relevant. And so there's

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<v Speaker 1>a bright line there that's always been followed that you

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<v Speaker 1>just don't get into that. And Mueller I think got

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<v Speaker 1>the most animated and spoke the most forcefullly when his

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<v Speaker 1>team was attacked. Um. And there were suggestions that that

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<v Speaker 1>this was somehow biased. Um. You know that of course

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<v Speaker 1>overlooks the fact that Mueller himself is a Republican and

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<v Speaker 1>he was the one ultimately ultimately making the final decisions

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<v Speaker 1>about what was in this report. I had to laugh,

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<v Speaker 1>Bob when they questioned him about one of his associates,

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<v Speaker 1>Andrew Wiseman's uh, one of his decisions being overturned by

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<v Speaker 1>the Supreme Court. I mean, to bring that up in

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<v Speaker 1>a hearing like this shows you how much research they did. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>there was a lot of work that went into it.

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<v Speaker 1>I think on both sides, because both Republicans and Democrats

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<v Speaker 1>were trying to figure out how they could score some

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<v Speaker 1>political points here. There were there were really no surprises.

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<v Speaker 1>Everybody knew that Robert Mueller was not going to answer

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<v Speaker 1>questions that went beyond the report itself, and so there

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<v Speaker 1>was a lot of time that went into figuring out

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<v Speaker 1>how they could score points for their respective political bases. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think you know, the Republicans decided that they'd

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<v Speaker 1>give these long winded speeches and the Democrats have sexually

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<v Speaker 1>decided that they would quote from the report itself and

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<v Speaker 1>simply get Mulitar acknowledge that they read the quotes correctly.

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<v Speaker 1>So at the end of the day, it's hard to

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<v Speaker 1>see how this hearing is going to advance um the

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<v Speaker 1>public's view of of the Mala Report one way or

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<v Speaker 1>the other. I think most people have already made up

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<v Speaker 1>their minds. That seems to be correct. And I thank

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<v Speaker 1>you so much for joining us as always, Bob. That's

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<v Speaker 1>from more federal prosecutor Robert Mintz. He's a partner at

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<v Speaker 1>McCarter and English. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple podcasts,

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<v Speaker 1>SoundCloud and on bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg