WEBVTT - The Limits of Abortion Sanctuary Laws 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:07.480 Welcome todake it happened here a podcaster. We occasionally have 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:11.800 introductions and mostly we have this and yeah that it's 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:15.000 it's the podcast. Things fall apart, things come back together again, 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:18.360 they fall apart again, we put them back together again. Yeah, 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:22.000 you know, you know the drill um. Yeah. And with 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:26.720 me is James. Hello, James, Hello, And speaking of things 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:32.800 falling apart, we're we're talking today about the what what 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.640 what it looks like when this sort of the interconnectivity 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:38.080 of the American judicial system comes apart under the weight 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:43.720 of dueling abortion laws. And with us to talk about 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.040 that is a lot of people who have written a 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.519 lot of very good stuff about this. So with us 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.599 is Ali Handra car Baio, who is a clinical instructor 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.480 at Harvard Law School Cyberlaw Clinic, where she works on 0:00:54.520 --> 0:01:00.440 the intersection of gender and technology. Hello, welcome to the show. Um. 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:04.240 We also have Michelle McGrath who is a public defender 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:07.440 in New York City for like almost a decade and 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:11.600 specializes in bail and parole litigation. Michelle, Welcome to the show. Hey, 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:17.639 happy to be here. And finally we have Eva Pierre, 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:22.000 who's a senior litigation counselor where she works at the 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.800 intersection of reproductive and criminal law, and she is on 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.760 cases where folks are criminalized for their pregnancy laws. So 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.360 if you welcome, welcome to the show as well. So 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:36.319 y'all have written, Actually, I don't it occurs to me 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:40.199 that it's been long enough. This is still not published yet, right, Yes, 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.800 it's so, it's basically we submitted it to Cuney Law 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.319 Review waiting for edits. We expect our Law Review article 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:51.960 to be published in December. Um. So, but you know, 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:54.520 we've we've basically created a t l d R that 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:59.240 we we are collaborated for Slate, so we you know, 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.520 there's a hundred word article on Slate. You can read 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:06.840 that kind of condenses down our article from words as 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:11.320 much as we can. I we were we were graciously 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.720 provided the long one, and so we read the long one. 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:18.280 We're gonna really talk about it because yeah, it's it's 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:22.680 it's a it's a really interesting look at I don't know, 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.080 there's a lot of sort of points of Okay, so 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:27.440 I guess we should rerun and talk about what this 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:30.679 actually is, which is that one of the things that's 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:35.040 been happening in the last I mean, basically, since jobs 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:41.440 is a series of questions about what Okay, So it 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:45.320 is a series of questions about what happens if you 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:48.400 are in a state where abortions are illegal and you 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:50.200 go to another state and you get an abortion there, 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:54.799 and yeah, and there. There's lots of jurisdictional questions here 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:59.000 and yeah, and this article is a very very sort 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.480 of in depth and really interesting look at it. And 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.240 I guess, okay, I want to jump into this at 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.960 a kind of weird place, but I wanted to start 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.600 with one of the things that one of the things 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:14.880 that's in this article that's I haven't really seen much 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:18.360 discussion of is about the way that the sort of 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:20.520 safe harbor laws that states have been setting up are 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.760 being like if well, okay, the way that they can 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:26.200 potentially be in the way that previous safe harbor laws 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:29.600 for immigration stuff were sabotaged by the fact that like 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:33.760 all of the cops are sending like all of their 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:35.160 stuff to each other. So yeah, I was wondering if 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:37.240 you could talk a bit about that. I guess it's 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:41.440 like a lead into it. Yeah, I mean I with 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:44.520 respect to specifically, like how all the law enforcement is 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:46.960 talking to each other. I think Alejandro might know a 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:49.680 little more with respect to that. But when it comes 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:54.640 to the way these laws are being written there, they 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:58.560 really don't have the kind of teeth that sort of 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:01.640 the politicians are spinning to the public. They're sort of 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:06.160 letting folks think that, well, we would never we in 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.280 New York would never send you to Texas for anything 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:13.200 related to the criminalization of a pregnancy laws. Um. And 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:16.919 because of the way the law of extradition works in 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:21.839 the United States, which is actually a constitutional law, um, 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:24.080 it's going to be hard in a lot of ways 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.440 for them to resist that. And so we have our 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:29.359 article does talk about a little bit um in actually 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:32.200 great detail about how they could actually craft the craft 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.120 laws that would be a little bit different. Yeah. I 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.280 think one of the things that you know this just 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:39.279 this past week there was the story that came out 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:44.160 of Nebraska where Facebook provided the d MS of someone 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:48.560 who is uh being charged with you know, it wasn't 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:52.159 even charged with like like there wasn't a formal charge 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.560 of like committing an abortion, like the person that was 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:57.400 being charged it was like disposing of a body, like 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:03.240 and uh be hiding a body, And so Facebook like 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:05.200 released a statement and was saying like, well, we weren't 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:07.560 told that this had anything to do with an abortion, 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:11.719 and like that's the exact problem, right, is that when 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.000 states are going to seek extradition, they're going to bring 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:17.840 charges that have probably nothing to do with it in 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.200 the immediate like on its face to do with abortion. 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:23.320 It could just be like, you know, they can repurpose 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:27.080 all kinds of laws like endangerment of a minor, right, Like, 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:30.040 they can do all these things that like would ordinarily 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:32.200 like never apply in a pregnancy, but they can just 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.200 kind of do it just bring charges. Um. And so 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:38.720 you know, um, my colleague who's for training out here 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.200 said their content cook has has written about this successively 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.560 about like the criminalization aspect. But in terms of like 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.120 how you know, these these safe harbor states, you know, 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.640 these laws like are going to be very difficult. I 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:51.719 think it is just really what we're dealing with the 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:55.680 effects of surveillance capitalism. Right. So, like Facebook turned over 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.320 these d m s. Facebook has been in the process 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:02.400 of moving to end to end encryption, which basically would 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.240 have made this impossible to do in the first place 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:08.040 because it would have been similar to signal but what 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:10.000 Facebook did is because they realized that they would have 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:14.000 lost access to data around people's messages and what they're 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:18.080 talking about, they made it optional instead of buy default. 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:21.320 And suppose people who are not very tech savvy are 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:24.120 very familiar or understanding of you know, who has access 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:26.240 to the messages and whether the government can get access, 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.560 they might not know that they can set this to 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:33.479 end end to end encryption, And so essentially, like in 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:36.960 pursuit of profit, Facebook doesn't enable this privacy feature. But 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:39.599 this is the exact same kind of stuff, right, So, 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.440 like Facebook has access to this data, but there's also 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:46.320 this whole shady system of data brokers that gets access 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:49.360 to all kinds of data. And that's exactly how I 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.080 think we alluded to when you ask this question about 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:59.120 Ice having access to basically all this information on immigrants 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.480 that Eates had swore they would never share with federal 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.719 immigration officials. Like ICE is basically built this entire shadow 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:12.200 system where they're purchasing data about driver's licenses and all 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:15.720 this stuff basically by the purchasing it on the open market, 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:21.480 and that bypasses all kinds of formal data requisition requests, warrants, subpoenas, 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:23.640 all those things that would normally be required because it's 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:27.440 just freely available. So you know, suffice to say, as 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.480 much as these states may want to protect things on 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:32.600 that end in terms of data, it's going to be 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.360 incredibly hard to do so. And I think they're the 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:40.040 previous efforts around uh, safe Harbor for immigrants UM and 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:42.840 asylum states and things like that. Um, it's just gonna 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:47.440 be really hard to enforce. Some practice, however, on the 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.440 extradition side, when when like criminal charges are actually brought 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.800 that there there is some things that states can actually 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.080 do to help protect folks who are caught up with 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:01.480 any kind of abortion related charges in their states. UM. 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.880 I just also want to jump into say that the 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:08.360 system works the way that it works because nobody's monitoring it. 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.680 So when we're talking about law enforcement officials that are 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:16.160 talking to one another and getting information through very informal means, right, 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.400 things that probably by the book would take a warrant 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.440 to go from one place to the other just takes 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:27.280 Marcy calling over Janice that works at the other system 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:31.440 and getting something faxed over, even if they're not doing 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:33.439 it out of malice. It's just, oh, this is out 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:35.319 of convenience. It makes life a lot easier to get 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:38.000 information from this place to that place. And folks have 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:40.920 these informal systems that are set up that even when 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.840 the law says that they cannot do it, if we 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:48.240 don't have safeguards that I hate to say go after 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:51.319 people because it seems so carceral, but like that protects 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:54.960 what the intent of the law is. It has no teeth. Right, 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.880 If your law doesn't stop Marcy from calling Janice and 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.360 getting information on someone that they're not supposed to have 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.440 in your law, doesn't matter. It's kind of in a 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.840 nothing sandwich, right, um and I have plenty of thoughts 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.080 and stuff to say about the criminalization when we get 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:12.720 there later, because that's a lot of my work. But 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:16.200 I think that gets to what Michelle and Alhandra and 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:18.920 what um Conci who's not here have found. It's just 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:23.000 you gotta have something more than nothing sandwich. Is something 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.880 more than something that seems good on the surface and 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:28.040 doesn't actually help the people that we want to help. 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:30.240 And I want to sort of help folks sort of 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:32.360 understand how this plays out on the grounds when the 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:36.000 article we we give an example, right, So maybe I've 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:40.960 got a New Yorker who gets prescribed a medication that 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.400 would induce abortion, and you know, they bring it to 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:47.839 their friend in a state where that's criminalized, and they 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:52.440 give their friend the medication, the pregnancy ends. Maybe the 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:56.040 person is concerned and they go to the hospital. Um 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.679 quite often nurses and doctors are part of the criminalization 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.640 proce sess and so you know, maybe they call law 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:06.920 enforcement official based on this information, they get a subpoena 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:09.079 for that person's phone. So now they're in the phone 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.760 and they can find out, Wow, they got this medicine 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:16.040 from the New Yorker. Well, now now the person who 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:21.120 took the medication, perhaps it's charged with homicide. Right. I 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.440 think what's key here is that they're not necessarily going 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:26.040 to be charged with abortion. Maybe they're charged with homicide. 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:28.400 They're charged with the fanticide. And guess what, the person 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:30.120 who came from New York is now probably going to 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:32.600 be charged as an accomplice. So now we have a 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:38.040 warrant for for a homicide for the person in New York. 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.680 Because of all the national databases that we have, the NYPD, 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:46.439 the any of the law enforcement in New York is 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.840 going to see oh that New Yorkers wanted for homicide, 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:54.000 let me go get that person. Um. And so when 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:57.560 then that person comes in front of a judge, even 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:02.000 though New York is saying or Connecticut is saying, you know, 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:05.240 we're not going to give any resources to extradite someone 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:08.680 related to the determination of pregnancy, Well, they're just being 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:11.079 brought before law enforcement in front of a judge who 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:14.760 sees that they're one of the homicide right and so 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:20.480 on the ground, these laws don't have anything to stop them. 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.680 And and so we've sort of suggested things that involved 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.560 immediate rights to council people need to be released for 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:29.520 extradition um. And we can talk about some of those more, 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:31.000 but I think it helps to sort of give that 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.640 example to see how it's happening, how it would happen 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:39.360 in real life. There's something else I wanted to sort 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:42.600 of talk about with this, because one of the things 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:47.960 that on the surce surveillance front has been the way 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:50.199 in whish like what we're seeing now is sort of 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.800 the culmination of like a bunch of the types of 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:55.720 surveillance that have been inflicted on a bunch of different 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:57.679 groups of people. Do you have the anti sex worker stuff. 0:11:57.679 --> 0:11:59.960 You have the deservation, the surveillance stuff that's music because 0:11:59.960 --> 0:12:02.839 in Ograncy you have h the sort of post nine 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:04.880 eleven like I mean, this is where the sort of 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.920 fusion centers um come from, is the sort of like 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.480 post nine eleven security state build up. And then you 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.200 have the stuff that's been used to go after activists. 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:16.240 And I think that's been really interesting to me to 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.240 sort of, I mean incredibly like depressing too to watch 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.480 has been Yeah, Like I don't know, like I remember 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:22.959 like the few like one of the things if you 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:24.920 these fusion centers where like all of these sort of 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.439 like law enforcement agencies like share information with each other, 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.679 Like I don't know, like I remember in like they 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:35.000 were like sending one of my friends tweets around because 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:36.480 that was one of the things they were doing to 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:40.439 like go after people doing the protests. And like, I 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:43.440 don't know, I was interested in in in this question 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:48.360 of of these fusion centers because it's it's this I 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:50.640 don't know, it's this real sort of like like it 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.160 really seems like the sort of like the the next 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:57.080 step of where all of this stuff goes is, you know, 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:59.720 the fusion centers becomes becomes this place where it's really 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.640 really easy to bypass the law because you know, all 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.520 of this stuff is just getting shared anyways. And it 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.200 brings up this other problem which I was interested in, 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.080 which is about, like to what extent can the state 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:18.440 even control law enforcement? Because like, okay, like law enforcement, 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:23.720 are those like cops in general, very reactionary. There there's 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.079 you know, if if you you know, if if if 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:28.400 you go back into the history of the anti Bush movement, 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:31.160 there's a lot of them being like aided to better 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:33.720 by the cops. And I was wondering, I don't know 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:38.360 what what you think about, like like what what what 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.280 do you even do if the cops just decide they 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.520 don't want to follow the law at all, and they're 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.040 just you know, they're gonna they're just gonna keep passing 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.960 information on no matter what you do. I think Alejandra 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:50.319 and I probably uh different on views about where things 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.600 are going next, probably just because of the nature of 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.120 our our work and the things that we're dealing with 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:59.040 the most. So this is gonna be fine. So I 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.400 I actually think it's oh, well, yesterday, two days ago, 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.200 whenever this airs. However, many days ago, one of our 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:08.080 colleagues at IF When How. My colleague Laura Hus, who's 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.280 brilliant UM, has been working on this research project for 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:15.199 like the last two years tracking cases of when folks 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:19.160 are criminalized for self managed abortion. Why self managed abortion 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.160 because that is the abortions that were happening outside of 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:26.120 clinical spaces, right that were there were always questions about 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.440 who can be criminalized for self managing their care. There 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.080 weren't as many protections in the law for a lot 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.000 of helpers and things like that in self managed care. 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:39.160 So when her and her team looked at this data, UM, 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:43.000 what they found was that the biggest risk of criminalization 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:47.960 didn't actually necessarily come from UM external forces looking at 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.760 big data, right, but was actually cut like the hell 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:53.800 is other people because what they were finding was that 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.200 nearly the majority of cases of folks coming to the 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.720 attention of law enforcement was coming from medical professionals. So 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:03.320 I want to say, I have the numbers in front 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:09.120 of me somewhere it's UM. Well, so it's something like 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.560 of folks that were reported to the police were reported 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:15.120 by some sort of medical professional, whether that's a doctor 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:16.840 or a social work or a nurse or whoever that 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.200 was at a hospital when they were seeking care or 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:21.200 they were getting prenatal care at some point when they 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.280 found out they were pregnant. That's how they came to 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:27.320 the attention of law enforcement. Another of those folks that 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.640 came to the attention of law enforcement came to people 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.640 that they told information to that they entrusted, whether that 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.160 was a family member, a partner, a former partner, whoever 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.240 the heck right. So, what we're finding is that the 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:41.640 vast majority of people that came to the attention of 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:45.600 law enforcement was because of folks like actual people that 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:49.400 had the information, and then that turned into them being 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:54.280 individually targeted by police, and then that turned into their 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.800 data being mined on their actual physical devices, not like 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:03.160 big brother down but small other up right. So, uh, 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.440 when I certainly think about kind of how big data 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:11.800 can be used and manipulated and like absolutely messed up 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.160 to do a dragnet of folks, that's always kind of 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.360 a possibility that's swimming. But I think the immediate possibility is, like, 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.320 how do you protect your individual data on your individual devices? 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.800 What safety plan do you have in place about how 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.120 you use the internet wholesale? Because I'm a lawyer, I 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:28.560 can't tell people to commit crimes, but I can tell 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.360 people to be very careful about how you manage your 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.800 devices and how you manage information. Who do you tell 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:39.640 your business to full stop? Right, because that's how folks 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.400 are coming to the attention of law enforcement. But can 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:46.280 the laws control cops? I think what we generally see 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:51.800 is like probably not, um, But will the courts respond 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.720 to cops that work outside of the law? I think 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:59.160 the loyally awful answer is it depends on the jurisdiction 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:01.480 that you managed to find yourself in. Yeah, I think 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.479 I think Keith Gas just head it right on the head. Um. 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.240 You know, it's cybersecurity or weakest like as always a 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.159 human element, So like that's always going to be the 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:12.680 biggest concern, right, Like who are you telling about any 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.919 of this? Like who knows about it? Um? Like you know, 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:19.000 you know on at tentiontional as you're like with genderforming 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:20.919 care in Texas, like one of the one of the 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:25.360 plaintiffs in the lawsuit against Texas, like one of the 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.439 trans boys like that that was like you know, found 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:32.480 out about you know, Governor Abbott's letter to like basically 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:37.679 equate gender affirming care as child abuse attempted suicide and 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:41.040 then when was taken to the hospital, the hospital staff 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:45.240 then made a report to like the Department of Yeah, 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:47.920 so I mean this was all in in the A c. 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.320 L US lawsuit, and it's like it's just insane, right, So, 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:54.400 like that that's exactly the thing. Like the biggest risk 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:56.840 is always gonna be the human element, Like you're like 0:17:56.920 --> 0:18:01.520 the doctors, the nurses, your friends, like family members, you know, 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:03.960 and it might even be people like you deeply trust 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:06.639 you just never know. And so that's always going to 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:09.160 be an aspect. But I think one of the biggest 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.320 risks as well is is that the amount of data 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:14.639 that we have now, like even if that can't be 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.359 used like in a proactive way to like target people 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:20.080 on the back ends, like once you do have that 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:22.600 kind of friend turning you in, like all of a sudden, 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.240 they have intent. They have like all of these things 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.960 from messages, they have location data. They show exactly where 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:31.280 you were at what time. Like it's it's just like 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:35.080 the perfect surveillance system that basically makes like any kind 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.160 of reasonable defense nearly impossible, right, Like they can show 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.320 where you were, who you talk to, um, And so 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.040 like I think that The best tweet that I saw 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:47.159 about this is from from someone who works at Digital 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.880 Defense Fund, and they're basically like there um actually might 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:52.320 not have been them. I just remember it was just 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:56.080 like there there is no conversation about criminal activity. There 0:18:56.160 --> 0:19:00.399 is only conspiracy. Like basically it's like any time you're 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.719 chatting about any of this stuff, like it's basically like 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:06.720 that that in itself can be potentially considered like criminal conduct, 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:08.679 and like that can be used like as intent and 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:12.520 like all these things and like um in prosecution. So 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:15.040 like there's all of those aspects and I think just 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:17.600 to answer your your question like more broadly on on 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:20.920 what police can be done, like like to be honest, 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:25.119 I guess, attorney, it's been very very frustrating seeing qualified 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:29.280 immunity just being like increased, right like so so basically 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.800 there's been no appetite by the courts to like like 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.560 remove this doctrine or whittle it away actually like being 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:40.320 rapidly expanded, especially the aspect around um federal agents. Right 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:44.000 and now like there's some can you explain, sorry briefly 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:45.840 just what that is for people who don't know. So, 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.680 qualified immunity basically means that you can't bring a civil 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:52.920 rights lawsuit particular with it call like a nineteen eighty 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:55.919 three lawsuit, which is like the federal statute that allows 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:59.840 you to bring civil rights lawsuits against state and federal 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:03.520 in individuals for um any kind of civil rights abuses. 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.200 And it's everything from like discrimination on basis of race 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:10.159 to basically you know, the cop beating someone you know 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.200 within an inch of their life though so basically any 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.280 any kind of civil rights violations. It's called a three case, 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:17.240 which is like the citation is the actual law that 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:20.000 like dates back to the nineteenth century, like it's part 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:23.320 of um like the ku Klux Klan Act, which like, 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.520 so this is a long running like civil rights statute 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.640 that really gained prominence in the last sixty years. But 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:33.159 you know, so basically what qualified immunity does is it 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:35.480 basically says it, well, if it wasn't a clearly established 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.760 right when this abuse or violation of your civil rights happened, 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:43.000 the officer or the government official, it can't be held 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.439 liable for it. So basically like and the way that 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:48.760 they do it is very strictly interpreted. It was like 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:52.000 clearly established right. So it's like, well it wasn't clearly 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:54.399 established right that you weren't supposed to be able to 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.040 be beaten with a baton, like and it's just like 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:00.879 what like it's some of these cases get really crazy. 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:02.760 I'm not an expert on this by any means, but 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:06.320 like I've I've you know, come across a few, and 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.840 it's it's absolutely insane, Like how how like narrowly they'll 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.000 they'll oftentimes like define what like clearly like it's not like, 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:16.000 you know, broadly defined right of like maybe police officers 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:19.639 shouldn't beating people, um, but you know, and I think 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:21.520 it was it was even crazier is that this large 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:23.760 or there's an upcoming lar of the article by this 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.720 professor that I was just came across the other day 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:31.320 and like apparently there is a whole provision of nineteen 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:36.000 of the section that has been omitted from the Federal 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:39.640 Register for a hundred and like forty years. Basically like 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:43.600 a clerk omitted a section and this large like this 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:49.119 this um like this lari Arga basically uncovered this omission 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:52.119 that should have been in the rest it passed in Congress. 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:55.840 I like, but hey, if you we didn't, it wasn't 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:59.440 a clearly established, right, Alejandra, So does it really apply? 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:02.960 I The one that I'm like haunted by that that 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:04.240 I read about that was that was one of the 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:06.479 qualified beaut cases was like there was a guy who 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:08.359