1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Welcome todake it happened here a podcaster. We occasionally have 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: introductions and mostly we have this and yeah that it's 3 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: it's the podcast. Things fall apart, things come back together again, 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: they fall apart again, we put them back together again. Yeah, 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: you know, you know the drill um. Yeah. And with 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: me is James. Hello, James, Hello, And speaking of things 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: falling apart, we're we're talking today about the what what 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: what it looks like when this sort of the interconnectivity 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: of the American judicial system comes apart under the weight 10 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: of dueling abortion laws. And with us to talk about 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: that is a lot of people who have written a 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: lot of very good stuff about this. So with us 13 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: is Ali Handra car Baio, who is a clinical instructor 14 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: at Harvard Law School Cyberlaw Clinic, where she works on 15 00:00:54,520 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: the intersection of gender and technology. Hello, welcome to the show. Um. 16 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: We also have Michelle McGrath who is a public defender 17 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: in New York City for like almost a decade and 18 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: specializes in bail and parole litigation. Michelle, Welcome to the show. Hey, 19 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:17,639 Speaker 1: happy to be here. And finally we have Eva Pierre, 20 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: who's a senior litigation counselor where she works at the 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: intersection of reproductive and criminal law, and she is on 22 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: cases where folks are criminalized for their pregnancy laws. So 23 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: if you welcome, welcome to the show as well. So 24 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: y'all have written, Actually, I don't it occurs to me 25 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,199 Speaker 1: that it's been long enough. This is still not published yet, right, Yes, 26 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: it's so, it's basically we submitted it to Cuney Law 27 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: Review waiting for edits. We expect our Law Review article 28 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: to be published in December. Um. So, but you know, 29 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: we've we've basically created a t l d R that 30 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: we we are collaborated for Slate, so we you know, 31 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: there's a hundred word article on Slate. You can read 32 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: that kind of condenses down our article from words as 33 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: much as we can. I we were we were graciously 34 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: provided the long one, and so we read the long one. 35 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: We're gonna really talk about it because yeah, it's it's 36 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: it's a it's a really interesting look at I don't know, 37 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: there's a lot of sort of points of Okay, so 38 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: I guess we should rerun and talk about what this 39 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,679 Speaker 1: actually is, which is that one of the things that's 40 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: been happening in the last I mean, basically, since jobs 41 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: is a series of questions about what Okay, So it 42 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: is a series of questions about what happens if you 43 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: are in a state where abortions are illegal and you 44 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: go to another state and you get an abortion there, 45 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: and yeah, and there. There's lots of jurisdictional questions here 46 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: and yeah, and this article is a very very sort 47 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: of in depth and really interesting look at it. And 48 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: I guess, okay, I want to jump into this at 49 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: a kind of weird place, but I wanted to start 50 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: with one of the things that one of the things 51 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: that's in this article that's I haven't really seen much 52 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: discussion of is about the way that the sort of 53 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: safe harbor laws that states have been setting up are 54 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: being like if well, okay, the way that they can 55 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: potentially be in the way that previous safe harbor laws 56 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: for immigration stuff were sabotaged by the fact that like 57 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: all of the cops are sending like all of their 58 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: stuff to each other. So yeah, I was wondering if 59 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: you could talk a bit about that. I guess it's 60 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: like a lead into it. Yeah, I mean I with 61 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: respect to specifically, like how all the law enforcement is 62 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: talking to each other. I think Alejandro might know a 63 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: little more with respect to that. But when it comes 64 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: to the way these laws are being written there, they 65 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: really don't have the kind of teeth that sort of 66 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: the politicians are spinning to the public. They're sort of 67 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: letting folks think that, well, we would never we in 68 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: New York would never send you to Texas for anything 69 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: related to the criminalization of a pregnancy laws. Um. And 70 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: because of the way the law of extradition works in 71 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: the United States, which is actually a constitutional law, um, 72 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: it's going to be hard in a lot of ways 73 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: for them to resist that. And so we have our 74 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 1: article does talk about a little bit um in actually 75 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: great detail about how they could actually craft the craft 76 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: laws that would be a little bit different. Yeah. I 77 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: think one of the things that you know this just 78 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: this past week there was the story that came out 79 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: of Nebraska where Facebook provided the d MS of someone 80 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: who is uh being charged with you know, it wasn't 81 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: even charged with like like there wasn't a formal charge 82 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: of like committing an abortion, like the person that was 83 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: being charged it was like disposing of a body, like 84 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: and uh be hiding a body, And so Facebook like 85 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: released a statement and was saying like, well, we weren't 86 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: told that this had anything to do with an abortion, 87 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: and like that's the exact problem, right, is that when 88 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: states are going to seek extradition, they're going to bring 89 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 1: charges that have probably nothing to do with it in 90 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: the immediate like on its face to do with abortion. 91 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: It could just be like, you know, they can repurpose 92 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: all kinds of laws like endangerment of a minor, right, Like, 93 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: they can do all these things that like would ordinarily 94 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: like never apply in a pregnancy, but they can just 95 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: kind of do it just bring charges. Um. And so 96 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: you know, um, my colleague who's for training out here 97 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: said their content cook has has written about this successively 98 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: about like the criminalization aspect. But in terms of like 99 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: how you know, these these safe harbor states, you know, 100 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: these laws like are going to be very difficult. I 101 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: think it is just really what we're dealing with the 102 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: effects of surveillance capitalism. Right. So, like Facebook turned over 103 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: these d m s. Facebook has been in the process 104 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: of moving to end to end encryption, which basically would 105 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: have made this impossible to do in the first place 106 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: because it would have been similar to signal but what 107 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: Facebook did is because they realized that they would have 108 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: lost access to data around people's messages and what they're 109 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: talking about, they made it optional instead of buy default. 110 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: And suppose people who are not very tech savvy are 111 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: very familiar or understanding of you know, who has access 112 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: to the messages and whether the government can get access, 113 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: they might not know that they can set this to 114 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: end end to end encryption, And so essentially, like in 115 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: pursuit of profit, Facebook doesn't enable this privacy feature. But 116 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: this is the exact same kind of stuff, right, So, 117 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: like Facebook has access to this data, but there's also 118 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: this whole shady system of data brokers that gets access 119 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: to all kinds of data. And that's exactly how I 120 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: think we alluded to when you ask this question about 121 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: Ice having access to basically all this information on immigrants 122 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: that Eates had swore they would never share with federal 123 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: immigration officials. Like ICE is basically built this entire shadow 124 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: system where they're purchasing data about driver's licenses and all 125 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: this stuff basically by the purchasing it on the open market, 126 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: and that bypasses all kinds of formal data requisition requests, warrants, subpoenas, 127 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: all those things that would normally be required because it's 128 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: just freely available. So you know, suffice to say, as 129 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: much as these states may want to protect things on 130 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: that end in terms of data, it's going to be 131 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: incredibly hard to do so. And I think they're the 132 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: previous efforts around uh, safe Harbor for immigrants UM and 133 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: asylum states and things like that. Um, it's just gonna 134 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: be really hard to enforce. Some practice, however, on the 135 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: extradition side, when when like criminal charges are actually brought 136 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: that there there is some things that states can actually 137 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: do to help protect folks who are caught up with 138 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: any kind of abortion related charges in their states. UM. 139 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: I just also want to jump into say that the 140 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: system works the way that it works because nobody's monitoring it. 141 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: So when we're talking about law enforcement officials that are 142 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: talking to one another and getting information through very informal means, right, 143 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: things that probably by the book would take a warrant 144 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: to go from one place to the other just takes 145 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: Marcy calling over Janice that works at the other system 146 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: and getting something faxed over, even if they're not doing 147 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 1: it out of malice. It's just, oh, this is out 148 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 1: of convenience. It makes life a lot easier to get 149 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: information from this place to that place. And folks have 150 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: these informal systems that are set up that even when 151 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: the law says that they cannot do it, if we 152 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: don't have safeguards that I hate to say go after 153 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 1: people because it seems so carceral, but like that protects 154 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: what the intent of the law is. It has no teeth. Right, 155 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: If your law doesn't stop Marcy from calling Janice and 156 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: getting information on someone that they're not supposed to have 157 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: in your law, doesn't matter. It's kind of in a 158 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: nothing sandwich, right, um and I have plenty of thoughts 159 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: and stuff to say about the criminalization when we get 160 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: there later, because that's a lot of my work. But 161 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: I think that gets to what Michelle and Alhandra and 162 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: what um Conci who's not here have found. It's just 163 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: you gotta have something more than nothing sandwich. Is something 164 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: more than something that seems good on the surface and 165 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: doesn't actually help the people that we want to help. 166 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: And I want to sort of help folks sort of 167 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: understand how this plays out on the grounds when the 168 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: article we we give an example, right, So maybe I've 169 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: got a New Yorker who gets prescribed a medication that 170 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: would induce abortion, and you know, they bring it to 171 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 1: their friend in a state where that's criminalized, and they 172 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: give their friend the medication, the pregnancy ends. Maybe the 173 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: person is concerned and they go to the hospital. Um 174 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: quite often nurses and doctors are part of the criminalization 175 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: proce sess and so you know, maybe they call law 176 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: enforcement official based on this information, they get a subpoena 177 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 1: for that person's phone. So now they're in the phone 178 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: and they can find out, Wow, they got this medicine 179 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: from the New Yorker. Well, now now the person who 180 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: took the medication, perhaps it's charged with homicide. Right. I 181 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: think what's key here is that they're not necessarily going 182 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: to be charged with abortion. Maybe they're charged with homicide. 183 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: They're charged with the fanticide. And guess what, the person 184 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: who came from New York is now probably going to 185 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: be charged as an accomplice. So now we have a 186 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: warrant for for a homicide for the person in New York. 187 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: Because of all the national databases that we have, the NYPD, 188 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 1: the any of the law enforcement in New York is 189 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: going to see oh that New Yorkers wanted for homicide, 190 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: let me go get that person. Um. And so when 191 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: then that person comes in front of a judge, even 192 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: though New York is saying or Connecticut is saying, you know, 193 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: we're not going to give any resources to extradite someone 194 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: related to the determination of pregnancy, Well, they're just being 195 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 1: brought before law enforcement in front of a judge who 196 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: sees that they're one of the homicide right and so 197 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: on the ground, these laws don't have anything to stop them. 198 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: And and so we've sort of suggested things that involved 199 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: immediate rights to council people need to be released for 200 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: extradition um. And we can talk about some of those more, 201 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: but I think it helps to sort of give that 202 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: example to see how it's happening, how it would happen 203 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: in real life. There's something else I wanted to sort 204 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: of talk about with this, because one of the things 205 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: that on the surce surveillance front has been the way 206 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 1: in whish like what we're seeing now is sort of 207 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: the culmination of like a bunch of the types of 208 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: surveillance that have been inflicted on a bunch of different 209 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: groups of people. Do you have the anti sex worker stuff. 210 00:11:57,679 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: You have the deservation, the surveillance stuff that's music because 211 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 1: in Ograncy you have h the sort of post nine 212 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: eleven like I mean, this is where the sort of 213 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: fusion centers um come from, is the sort of like 214 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: post nine eleven security state build up. And then you 215 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: have the stuff that's been used to go after activists. 216 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: And I think that's been really interesting to me to 217 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: sort of, I mean incredibly like depressing too to watch 218 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: has been Yeah, Like I don't know, like I remember 219 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 1: like the few like one of the things if you 220 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: these fusion centers where like all of these sort of 221 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 1: like law enforcement agencies like share information with each other, 222 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 1: Like I don't know, like I remember in like they 223 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: were like sending one of my friends tweets around because 224 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: that was one of the things they were doing to 225 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 1: like go after people doing the protests. And like, I 226 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: don't know, I was interested in in in this question 227 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: of of these fusion centers because it's it's this I 228 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: don't know, it's this real sort of like like it 229 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: really seems like the sort of like the the next 230 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: step of where all of this stuff goes is, you know, 231 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: the fusion centers becomes becomes this place where it's really 232 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: really easy to bypass the law because you know, all 233 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: of this stuff is just getting shared anyways. And it 234 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: brings up this other problem which I was interested in, 235 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: which is about, like to what extent can the state 236 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: even control law enforcement? Because like, okay, like law enforcement, 237 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: are those like cops in general, very reactionary. There there's 238 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: you know, if if you you know, if if if 239 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: you go back into the history of the anti Bush movement, 240 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: there's a lot of them being like aided to better 241 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: by the cops. And I was wondering, I don't know 242 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: what what you think about, like like what what what 243 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: do you even do if the cops just decide they 244 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: don't want to follow the law at all, and they're 245 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: just you know, they're gonna they're just gonna keep passing 246 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: information on no matter what you do. I think Alejandra 247 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: and I probably uh different on views about where things 248 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: are going next, probably just because of the nature of 249 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: our our work and the things that we're dealing with 250 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: the most. So this is gonna be fine. So I 251 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: I actually think it's oh, well, yesterday, two days ago, 252 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: whenever this airs. However, many days ago, one of our 253 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: colleagues at IF When How. My colleague Laura Hus, who's 254 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: brilliant UM, has been working on this research project for 255 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 1: like the last two years tracking cases of when folks 256 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: are criminalized for self managed abortion. Why self managed abortion 257 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: because that is the abortions that were happening outside of 258 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: clinical spaces, right that were there were always questions about 259 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: who can be criminalized for self managing their care. There 260 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: weren't as many protections in the law for a lot 261 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: of helpers and things like that in self managed care. 262 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: So when her and her team looked at this data, UM, 263 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: what they found was that the biggest risk of criminalization 264 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: didn't actually necessarily come from UM external forces looking at 265 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: big data, right, but was actually cut like the hell 266 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: is other people because what they were finding was that 267 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: nearly the majority of cases of folks coming to the 268 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: attention of law enforcement was coming from medical professionals. So 269 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: I want to say, I have the numbers in front 270 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: of me somewhere it's UM. Well, so it's something like 271 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: of folks that were reported to the police were reported 272 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: by some sort of medical professional, whether that's a doctor 273 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: or a social work or a nurse or whoever that 274 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: was at a hospital when they were seeking care or 275 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: they were getting prenatal care at some point when they 276 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: found out they were pregnant. That's how they came to 277 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: the attention of law enforcement. Another of those folks that 278 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: came to the attention of law enforcement came to people 279 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: that they told information to that they entrusted, whether that 280 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: was a family member, a partner, a former partner, whoever 281 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: the heck right. So, what we're finding is that the 282 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: vast majority of people that came to the attention of 283 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: law enforcement was because of folks like actual people that 284 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: had the information, and then that turned into them being 285 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: individually targeted by police, and then that turned into their 286 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: data being mined on their actual physical devices, not like 287 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: big brother down but small other up right. So, uh, 288 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: when I certainly think about kind of how big data 289 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: can be used and manipulated and like absolutely messed up 290 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: to do a dragnet of folks, that's always kind of 291 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: a possibility that's swimming. But I think the immediate possibility is, like, 292 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: how do you protect your individual data on your individual devices? 293 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: What safety plan do you have in place about how 294 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: you use the internet wholesale? Because I'm a lawyer, I 295 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: can't tell people to commit crimes, but I can tell 296 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: people to be very careful about how you manage your 297 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: devices and how you manage information. Who do you tell 298 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: your business to full stop? Right, because that's how folks 299 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: are coming to the attention of law enforcement. But can 300 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: the laws control cops? I think what we generally see 301 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: is like probably not, um, But will the courts respond 302 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: to cops that work outside of the law? I think 303 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: the loyally awful answer is it depends on the jurisdiction 304 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: that you managed to find yourself in. Yeah, I think 305 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,479 Speaker 1: I think Keith Gas just head it right on the head. Um. 306 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: You know, it's cybersecurity or weakest like as always a 307 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: human element, So like that's always going to be the 308 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: biggest concern, right, Like who are you telling about any 309 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: of this? Like who knows about it? Um? Like you know, 310 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: you know on at tentiontional as you're like with genderforming 311 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 1: care in Texas, like one of the one of the 312 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:25,360 Speaker 1: plaintiffs in the lawsuit against Texas, like one of the 313 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: trans boys like that that was like you know, found 314 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: out about you know, Governor Abbott's letter to like basically 315 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: equate gender affirming care as child abuse attempted suicide and 316 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: then when was taken to the hospital, the hospital staff 317 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: then made a report to like the Department of Yeah, 318 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: so I mean this was all in in the A c. 319 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: L US lawsuit, and it's like it's just insane, right, So, 320 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: like that that's exactly the thing. Like the biggest risk 321 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: is always gonna be the human element, Like you're like 322 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: the doctors, the nurses, your friends, like family members, you know, 323 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: and it might even be people like you deeply trust 324 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: you just never know. And so that's always going to 325 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: be an aspect. But I think one of the biggest 326 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: risks as well is is that the amount of data 327 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: that we have now, like even if that can't be 328 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: used like in a proactive way to like target people 329 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: on the back ends, like once you do have that 330 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: kind of friend turning you in, like all of a sudden, 331 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: they have intent. They have like all of these things 332 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: from messages, they have location data. They show exactly where 333 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: you were at what time. Like it's it's just like 334 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: the perfect surveillance system that basically makes like any kind 335 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: of reasonable defense nearly impossible, right, Like they can show 336 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: where you were, who you talk to, um, And so 337 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: like I think that The best tweet that I saw 338 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: about this is from from someone who works at Digital 339 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: Defense Fund, and they're basically like there um actually might 340 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: not have been them. I just remember it was just 341 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: like there there is no conversation about criminal activity. There 342 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: is only conspiracy. Like basically it's like any time you're 343 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,719 Speaker 1: chatting about any of this stuff, like it's basically like 344 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: that that in itself can be potentially considered like criminal conduct, 345 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 1: and like that can be used like as intent and 346 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: like all these things and like um in prosecution. So 347 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: like there's all of those aspects and I think just 348 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: to answer your your question like more broadly on on 349 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: what police can be done, like like to be honest, 350 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: I guess, attorney, it's been very very frustrating seeing qualified 351 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: immunity just being like increased, right like so so basically 352 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: there's been no appetite by the courts to like like 353 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: remove this doctrine or whittle it away actually like being 354 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: rapidly expanded, especially the aspect around um federal agents. Right 355 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: and now like there's some can you explain, sorry briefly 356 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: just what that is for people who don't know. So, 357 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: qualified immunity basically means that you can't bring a civil 358 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: rights lawsuit particular with it call like a nineteen eighty 359 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: three lawsuit, which is like the federal statute that allows 360 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: you to bring civil rights lawsuits against state and federal 361 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: in individuals for um any kind of civil rights abuses. 362 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: And it's everything from like discrimination on basis of race 363 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: to basically you know, the cop beating someone you know 364 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: within an inch of their life though so basically any 365 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: any kind of civil rights violations. It's called a three case, 366 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: which is like the citation is the actual law that 367 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: like dates back to the nineteenth century, like it's part 368 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: of um like the ku Klux Klan Act, which like, 369 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: so this is a long running like civil rights statute 370 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 1: that really gained prominence in the last sixty years. But 371 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: you know, so basically what qualified immunity does is it 372 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: basically says it, well, if it wasn't a clearly established 373 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: right when this abuse or violation of your civil rights happened, 374 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: the officer or the government official, it can't be held 375 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: liable for it. So basically like and the way that 376 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: they do it is very strictly interpreted. It was like 377 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: clearly established right. So it's like, well it wasn't clearly 378 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: established right that you weren't supposed to be able to 379 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: be beaten with a baton, like and it's just like 380 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: what like it's some of these cases get really crazy. 381 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: I'm not an expert on this by any means, but 382 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: like I've I've you know, come across a few, and 383 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: it's it's absolutely insane, Like how how like narrowly they'll 384 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: they'll oftentimes like define what like clearly like it's not like, 385 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, broadly defined right of like maybe police officers 386 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: shouldn't beating people, um, but you know, and I think 387 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: it was it was even crazier is that this large 388 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: or there's an upcoming lar of the article by this 389 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: professor that I was just came across the other day 390 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: and like apparently there is a whole provision of nineteen 391 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: of the section that has been omitted from the Federal 392 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 1: Register for a hundred and like forty years. Basically like 393 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: a clerk omitted a section and this large like this 394 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 1: this um like this lari Arga basically uncovered this omission 395 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: that should have been in the rest it passed in Congress. 396 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: I like, but hey, if you we didn't, it wasn't 397 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: a clearly established, right, Alejandra, So does it really apply? 398 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: I The one that I'm like haunted by that that 399 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: I read about that was that was one of the 400 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,479 Speaker 1: qualified beaut cases was like there was a guy who 401 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: got lit on fire by a cop with the taser, 402 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,719 Speaker 1: and the courts ruled that because because there hadn't been 403 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 1: a prior instance of someone typing like that, you don't 404 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: have clearly established right for a cop you on fire 405 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: with the taser. Yeah, and you know you can sky 406 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: burned to death because again you got lit on fire 407 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: with a taser because because there wasn't a clearly things 408 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: like this is like this is like the worst, Like yeah, 409 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: the secret is it's never it's never clearly established like 410 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: like mostly folks lose these lawsuits. And I mean this 411 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: is where you know, I think folks need to recognize 412 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: and I say this very much as a lawyer, that 413 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: the law is not, at the end of the day, 414 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 1: was going to save us like collective organizing and working 415 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: together to keep each other safe. Is because the law 416 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 1: is not designed to hold police accountable. It is not 417 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: designed to keep people out of jail and back to 418 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: designed to do the opposite right, And I think We're 419 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: going to see a whole lot of folks start to 420 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: understand how criminalization works in a way that they may 421 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: not have realized before. And to your question, like as 422 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,360 Speaker 1: a public defender in New York City who spent many 423 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 1: of those years in the bronx, like, no, the police 424 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: are not accountable to anyone, and they continually do unlawful 425 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: things all day. And this is part part of one 426 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: of the solutions. And again, all of these are stock 427 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: gap measures so that people have time to plan and 428 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: plot and organize and and and do what they need 429 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: to do. But is that in these states that are saying, oh, 430 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: we're not you know, we're going to keep state resources away. No, 431 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: no one shall use state resources to move someone for 432 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: any of these you know, criminalization of pregnancy. Um. But 433 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: we imagine that law enforcement is generally a rather conservative 434 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: group of people will simply disagree with that law and 435 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: probably at times do things anyway, right, And we can 436 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 1: file a lawsuit later, but that's not really preventing the 437 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: harm in the interim, right, Like someone's going to be incarcerated. 438 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: All of these things are going to happen. And so 439 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: one of our proposals is that it should be crystal 440 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: clear that any any state actor who does participate in 441 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: such extradition can be sued individually. They will have none 442 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: of this qualified immunity. It will not exist. Now. Listen, 443 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: this seems very reasonable to me and to us. But 444 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: do I think it's something that the legislature will actually pass. 445 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: I'm not particularly optimistic about most of our proposals on 446 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: this because it will mean a lot of other folks 447 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: who will not be criminalized in addition to m folks 448 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: whore criminalized proportion. But so so I do think that 449 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 1: that that does police. You have a problem with rampant 450 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: police impunity uh in this country, UM, and it will 451 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: show up here just like it does in many other sectors. 452 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: I think sometimes when we talk about criminalization of abortion wholesale, 453 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: for folks that have not been working in and about 454 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: repro it feels very new, like this is something that 455 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: we need to kind of like gird our loins and 456 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: prepare for. But folks that have been working in in 457 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: the r hr J movements, reproductive rights, health injustice movements, UM, 458 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: we have been talking about criminalization for a long time. 459 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: And the reason that we've been talking about criminalizations because 460 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: it's been happening for a long time. So I was 461 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: talking about my colleagues research that, um, the preliminary and 462 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: FO just came out. So when she was combing through 463 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,160 Speaker 1: all of these like different clerks offices all over the country, 464 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: she unearthed like sixty one cases of folks being criminalized 465 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: with self managed abortion in twenty states. Now we only 466 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: have three states that have laws criminalizing self managed abortion 467 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: left on the books. So holy crap. The fact that 468 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: there have been prosecutions in twenty states when only I 469 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,479 Speaker 1: think at the time that some of these cases were 470 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: about only like five or six states. Add these laws 471 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: on the books tell us that prosecutors are very, very 472 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: creative in the ways that they go after people. So 473 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: the likelihood of always seeing abortion written at the top 474 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: of the warrant is going to be low. And then 475 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: in some states we are going to start seeing it 476 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 1: because they are going to if they haven't already criminalized 477 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,479 Speaker 1: abortion wholesale, any kind of abortion right, all abortions are 478 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: going to become self managed because their folks are not 479 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: able to get clinical care. So it's it's not new, 480 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: and I think that's one of the things that I 481 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 1: want to make sure that folks understand that there, like 482 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: criminal defense attorneys can and can deal with this because 483 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: it's just the same messed up ways that they charge 484 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: people in a variety of other cases. But I think 485 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: the shock and awe um that's hitting some folks who 486 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: the criminal legal system doesn't move within their lives is 487 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: I need folks to get out of shock and all 488 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: quick and get into work mode because some of the 489 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: things that I'm seeing on the Internet while we're talking 490 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: about how hell is other people and how we can 491 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: protect ourselves in our communities, Um, some of the ways 492 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: that folks are talking about this on the Internet shows 493 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: that they're not people that have had the impact of 494 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,239 Speaker 1: the criminal legal system necessarily touched their lives, right like 495 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: folks that think they're doing op set on Twitter by 496 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: like if you want to get a manicure, you can 497 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: come to my state and I'll pick you up for 498 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: your manicure. And that's when we talk about how cases 499 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: get put together on the back end. And I think, 500 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 1: um Michelle can probably speak to this too, like as 501 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: a public defender, when you're seeing how when you have 502 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: a very motivated prosecutor a cop that actually knows how 503 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: to do their job in the information that they're able 504 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: to gather when they investigate. Yes, they will pull your tweets. Yes, 505 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: even if it's not your case, they will pull your 506 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: tweets and connect that person that got their abortion to 507 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: the tweets that you put online to show that they 508 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: intended to go to your place to go and get 509 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 1: an abortion, and then try to use those things to 510 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: prosecute them over here. So, even if you're willing to 511 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: take the risk with your own life, if you're trying 512 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: to help people, don't put them in a position that 513 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 1: they can be harmed by some of the things that 514 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: we say out loud. Because if you're living in a 515 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: state where you're not afraid of criminalization, but the person 516 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: you are trying to help is in a state that 517 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: and they have to go back to somewhere they can 518 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: be criminalized, you've got to think about how you're protecting them. 519 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,479 Speaker 1: That's my soapbox. Rant. I think that's really valuable. Actually, 520 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: this like we start let in the Trump administration to 521 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: this like legal constitutional magic that like like the steth Abrimson, 522 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: the the Twitter thread guy right like it it's us. Yeah, 523 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: it distracts from useful organizing a mutual aid because people 524 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: are just like, well if this and this and this 525 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: and this and this, and then like I understand this 526 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: and no one else does and this is a special secret. 527 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: And then if we do this and turn around three 528 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: times and go through the wardrobe, indulge up will be 529 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: impeached or you know, I can give you it a 530 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: safe a safe of safe access to reproductive healthcare rather 531 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: than just doing the work. And I think another part 532 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: of what was going on here and this has been 533 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: something that like you know, if if you talk to 534 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: people who've been doing this, like okay, if if if 535 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: this is the thing you genuinely want to do, there 536 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: are people who have been doing this kind of work 537 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: for decades and decades and decades of decades, and they 538 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: know largely what is safe and what isn't and more 539 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: stuff is the factor for not And the way that 540 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: this sort of like like the kind of sort of like, hey, 541 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go do this on my own. I have 542 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: I've never done this before. I don't know what I'm doing, 543 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: but here I'm going to sort of signal that I 544 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: can do this thing. Like go talk if you want 545 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: to do this, go talk to people who have been 546 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: doing it. For ages and go support them because, like, 547 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: you know, again, like the reason the reason we're here 548 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: in the first place is because that this whole, like 549 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: the entire right to abortion has for literally decades, been 550 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: support by just a really tiny number of incredibly underfunded 551 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: and understaffed people in organizations. So like, go help them, 552 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: don't like strike out on your own to boldly get 553 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: you and everyone you're working with arrested. Yeah, I think 554 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: you know, some of that is. You know, I think 555 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: some people have some good intentions, but my god, like 556 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: that energy can be spent in so much more productive ways, 557 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: and it's it's kind of unfortunate. I think that the 558 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: worst aspect of it, though, is like the tech bros 559 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: coming in and being like I'm going to save this 560 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: face with We're going to create a dow and like 561 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: distribute funds, and I'm like, oh my god, Like I'm 562 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: just sitting here, like you know, because this is something 563 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: like you know, I've looked into a students like this 564 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: earlier this year, like you know, how payment transactions could 565 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: be used, um and basically how there's basically almost no 566 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: security with with payment transactions, right, like like if you're 567 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: using Venmo, which which in and of itself has like 568 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: a social media functions, so like you know, you can 569 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: see when you're your friend, you know, Joe is like 570 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: getting brunch on Sunday, and like, you know, they could 571 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, if you're not sending that to private by 572 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: default like that that's already a problem. But basically, like 573 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: you know, they can get access to those records pretty easily, 574 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: um in a much easier way. And you know, one 575 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,239 Speaker 1: of the things we we we started to look at, 576 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: like towards the end was like, oh, you know, as 577 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: you know, had some some students being like we can 578 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: you can you use crypto? Can you use like bitcoin? 579 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: It's like you still have to interact at some point 580 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: with a financial institution and they can tie these things back. 581 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: It is not that exceptionally hard, especially like now it's 582 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: been shown that like coin bases like cooperating with the 583 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: FEDS and basically acting like a giant honeypot. So like 584 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: I just I finally wish that people just like realize 585 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: that like technology is not going to save us here, 586 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: like it can help if used wisely and creatively, but 587 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: don't think that like you're just gonna like do this 588 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: one little neat trick, like as James was saying, and 589 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: then suddenly we're gonna fix this because it's not right, 590 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: Like this is going to take a million different solutions 591 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: with a million different people doing all the little things 592 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: that they can to push back, and like that's one 593 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,239 Speaker 1: of the things I think we we tried to be 594 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: very hopble about in our papers, like, look, none of 595 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: this is a silver bullet. We're just trying to provide 596 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: some concrete solutions that states can take and some stuff 597 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: that they can take. But we realize that nothing is 598 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: ever going to be perfect to solve this kind of 599 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: Pandora's box. It's been opened by Aldo and all these 600 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: like right wing reactionaries on the court. So like, I 601 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: guess speaking of things that are not silver bullets will 602 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: not save us. Um, yeah, I guess could we get 603 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: a bit more into looking at what the sort of 604 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: like It's like a lot of the article is talking 605 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: about I guess the that the history of extradition, uh, 606 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: and how how that sort of been understood and interpreted, 607 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: And so I guess I was wondering, can we go 608 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: into talking about what the sort of legal stuff is 609 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: going to look like when it's like, you know, if 610 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: if we start getting these large showdowns between like states 611 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: with like actually sort of like you know, if states 612 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: actually start trying to have sanctuary laws that are like 613 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: have teeth and are good, what what what is that 614 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: sort of what is that going to look like? Yeah, 615 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: so this is a kind of part that I focused 616 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: on in the article. And so basically a lot of 617 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: people aren't aware about this because it's not really a 618 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: contested area of the Constitution. But basically when the Constitution 619 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: was drafted um and ratified, it contained what was called 620 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: the Extradition Clause, and basically what it said is that, 621 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, all the states have a duty to turn 622 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: over fugitives from other states that have been charged with 623 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: the crime and have fled into those states. Is the 624 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: United States kind of were It's a federal system, so 625 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: like every state is still considered kind of its own 626 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: sovereign in some ways, in a very like quasi sovereign way. 627 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: And so there was a question about you know, since 628 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: all criminal prosecutions, basically, especially the inception of the United States, 629 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: were done at the state level, you know, what what 630 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,359 Speaker 1: happens when somebody crosses and across state lines, Like, how 631 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: are we going to handle that. And so basically this 632 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,879 Speaker 1: was you know, one of the drafts. And initially they 633 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: tried to set it at a higher bar, like to 634 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 1: be like high crimes and misdemeanors, similar to kind of 635 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: the impeachment clause, and you know, they whittled it down 636 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: to and basically made it very applicable to set all 637 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,720 Speaker 1: crimes um. But it really did not get much play 638 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: until basically in the eighteen forties when obviously the tension 639 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 1: around slavery picked up, right, so you had enslaved people 640 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: escaping to the north and the South being very angry 641 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: about that and wanting the North to to return um 642 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: the escaped enslave folks and the North being like no. 643 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: And Congress tried to figure out a way to like 644 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: threads some kind of needle, but made it ten times 645 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: worse and put us on an accelerating path towards Civil 646 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: war by passing the Fugitive Slave Act of eighteen fifty, 647 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: and a bunch of radical abolitionists in the Northeast were like, 648 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: we don't ever want to comply with this right, So 649 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: like Vermont passed this bill called the Habeas Corpus Act, 650 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: which basically created all kinds of legal procedures so that 651 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: Southern bounty hunters wouldn't just come into the state and 652 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: just kidnap, you know, the first black person they saw, 653 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: because they assumed that they were been an escaped and 654 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: slave person rather than a free person, and you know, 655 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 1: and it was trying to stop that kind of issue 656 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: of kidnappings and also just not to comply with this, 657 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,760 Speaker 1: you know, the institution of slavery, because there were people 658 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: who had escaped slavery and more in the North, and 659 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,479 Speaker 1: so it was causing all kinds of tension. And while 660 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: like the Vermont Law was never fully tested, it did 661 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: create a lot of incendiary back and force between the 662 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: North and the South and the press. And it was 663 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: really interesting like reading some of these old like newspaper 664 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: articles from the eighteen like from eighteen fifty, because it 665 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: was like basically the press and Richmond and the press 666 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: in Boston like taking stabs at each other, and it 667 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: was like the eighteen fifty version of ship posting, because 668 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: they were like one person was just like this is 669 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: nullification made easy, and like basically with like it's just 670 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: it was. It was the surreal thing like if you know, 671 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: if you get a chance when when our full article 672 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,399 Speaker 1: comes out in December, there'll be some some highlights from 673 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,399 Speaker 1: that and the notes UM. But basically what it really 674 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,800 Speaker 1: got tested was in eighteen sixty one. The case started 675 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty nine, though it's called Kentucky be Dennistent, 676 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: and so what essentially happened is there was someone who 677 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: aided Um and it's like person escape Kentucky and get 678 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: to Ohio. And basically the governor of Ohio was an 679 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: abolitionist and was like, I don't want to comply with 680 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: this right and I do not want to I don't 681 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: believe this is a crime because this is not a 682 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: crime in our state, And the Attorney Journal of Ohio 683 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: basically wrote a long legal memo stating that this this 684 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,399 Speaker 1: is a crime not known to the laws of civilization 685 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: or man. So basically, yeah, they find it want to 686 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: read to the Supreme Court. And Chief Justice Taney also 687 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,720 Speaker 1: notable for dread Scott decision, so like absolutely just terrible 688 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: court like they were. This came I think about like 689 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: three weeks before the Civil War, so this was like 690 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,720 Speaker 1: I think it'sould in like March of eighteen one, so 691 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: basically like three weeks before Fort Sumter got like sacked 692 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: by by the South. Um. But basically what it did 693 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: was is that it said states actually can't utilize any 694 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: discretion in extradition, So like the like the governor of 695 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,359 Speaker 1: Ohio can't say, like, I have concerns about human rights 696 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: and that this isn't a crime in our state. Right, 697 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,799 Speaker 1: there's not this dual criminality analysis, and we're concerned about 698 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: human rights and all these things. So the Supreme Court 699 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: basically said, no, states don't have that discretion, which you know, 700 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 1: but they essentially split the baby by by then saying 701 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: federal courts can't issue a ridom and damus, which is 702 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: basically an order for a government official to do something. Um, 703 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 1: they said that federal courts couldn't do that to a 704 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: state governor an extradition. So basically it means that like, 705 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: states don't have a discretion, but federal courts can enforce it. 706 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,320 Speaker 1: So therefore it's just a non issue. Right. Fast forward 707 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty years and we get to a 708 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: case called Pero Rico v. Brand's Dad, which basically, somebody 709 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: committed murder in Perto Rico led back to Iowa and 710 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: then was software extradition back to Perrico. And there's a 711 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,839 Speaker 1: huge element of racism here because you know, they were 712 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: concerned that a white man couldn't get a fair trial 713 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: in Puerto Rico, which is just deeply offensive. Um. And 714 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: so they were. And there was also a question of 715 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: like territoriality, right, because Perdorico is a territory. I wasn't 716 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: sure if they had to comply with the extradition clause. 717 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,760 Speaker 1: And so essentially the Supreme Court said, yes, federal courts 718 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 1: can comply with or can issue it a rid of 719 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: mandamus to to ensure extradition. So essentially what it did 720 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 1: was it partially overturned the Kentucky v. Does in case, 721 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: but upheld the central ruling of basicist states have no discretion. 722 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: So what does that mean? Basically that states can't really 723 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: stop the extradition of someone in their in their um jurisdiction, 724 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: even if they have extreme concerns. Right. So if you 725 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: have like, let's like going back to Michelle's example earlier, 726 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: someone who sends their friends like abortion pills um from 727 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: New York to let's say Texas, right, and Texas is 728 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 1: seeking extradition in New York. It's like, well, that's not 729 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: a crime. Here, so we don't want to extradite Um, 730 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: you know, the states will typically be hard pressed. But 731 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: there's kind of two kind of or there's one major 732 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: issue with like the extradition part right, actually has to 733 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: apply to someone who's quote unquote an actual fugitive, meaning 734 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,360 Speaker 1: that they had to actually be present in the state 735 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: when the crime occurred. And the commission of the crime 736 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: can't in itself create what's called constructive presence. You have 737 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: to be corporeally present in the state, meaning you have 738 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,880 Speaker 1: to be physically present. You can't just like the commission 739 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,839 Speaker 1: of the crime doesn't constitute that. So in this instance, um, 740 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, the person who says a pill in New 741 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: York technically like constitutionally does not have to be extradited, right, Like, 742 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 1: they can contest that. The problem is, as Michelle pointed out, 743 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: is that, you know, the extradition causes it exist today 744 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 1: is pretty much almost entirely just a formality that is 745 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: waived basically almost every single time. And so the courts, 746 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 1: the like the state attorneys, the district attorneys, even defense 747 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: attorneys might not be familiar with that and might not 748 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 1: know that that's something that they could potentially contest or 749 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: it's even something that they can um that that is 750 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: a potential constitutional issue, right, And so that's one of 751 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,720 Speaker 1: the things that we focused on is our potential solution, 752 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 1: UM is to ensure that people who were not present 753 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: in the state where the actor occurred are able to 754 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: mount a challenge to the extra shiit um. You know, 755 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: it creates all kinds of other problems because there's still 756 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 1: federal extradition and meaning like if you leave this the 757 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 1: country and come back in, like border patrol could potentially 758 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: get you. We still don't have a clear understanding of 759 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 1: how that necessarily would work, um, you know, and because 760 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: that's never been a question that's like fully resolved. So 761 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 1: you know, basically, you know, at the end of the day, 762 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: like we want to make sure that like folks are 763 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 1: aware of that, but like the folks that like leave Texas, right, So, 764 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 1: like if you've committ an abortion, you were charged in 765 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,319 Speaker 1: Texas and you go to New York, like New York 766 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,800 Speaker 1: is not going to have very many options to protect 767 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 1: you from being extradited back to Texas. Um. And so 768 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that you know, I 769 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,800 Speaker 1: fundamentally believe Kentucky be Dennison was wrong was wrongly decided 770 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 1: on the sense that state shouldn't be able to have 771 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 1: a concern around human rights because it essentially acts as 772 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,799 Speaker 1: a one way ratchet where the states with the most 773 00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: regressive anti human rights criminal justice laws get to have, 774 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: like get to dictate that over all of the other states, 775 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,839 Speaker 1: similar to how UM slavery, like the southern states were 776 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: trying to enforce the institutional slavery on northern states that 777 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: had that had abolished slavery decades ago. So it's a 778 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,399 Speaker 1: very complicated issue. And again I reached back to that 779 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,359 Speaker 1: slavery analysis because not because I think that, you know, 780 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: the slavery and abortions should be compared directly, but because 781 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: like this is funaventually the last time where you have 782 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: criminal laws that are so different between states, Like one 783 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: state's human right is another state's capital crime. Like if 784 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: you can't get further apart than that. Yeah, And I 785 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 1: wanted to just clarify for folks, if I drove the 786 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: pill to Texas, then I would have committed the crime 787 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 1: in Texas and New York could extradite me. Um and 788 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 1: I what I also think I'm sort of here is 789 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: the what happens on the ground right, So if you 790 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: to be clear, while as Alejanda correctly points, if I 791 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: just mailed it to Texas and they have the warrant 792 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,239 Speaker 1: while we're sorting out this extradition warrant, I am very 793 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,880 Speaker 1: likely incarcerated, and the sorting out of the extradition warrant 794 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: will probably take ninety days. So just because I think 795 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,040 Speaker 1: folks get confused with this a lot, just because something 796 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 1: is illegal doesn't mean or your lawyers arguing it's illegal 797 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 1: doesn't mean it just magically stops um or the process ends. 798 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 1: And so this is something where we think that, um, 799 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 1: really there should be a basis to contest your extradition 800 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,399 Speaker 1: on a human rights ground on two grounds. Either there 801 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 1: is no dual criminality, that is, this is not actually 802 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 1: a crime, and the other state interestingly, here, handing someone 803 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 1: a prescription pill in New York is actually a felony, 804 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 1: whether or not you get money for it. Most folks 805 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,320 Speaker 1: don't know that he's smiling because she also has a 806 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,280 Speaker 1: public defender in New York City. Um, because it blows 807 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: your mind. You're like, wait, they just handed it to them. 808 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,359 Speaker 1: There's no money exchange. Yeah, that's a felony drug sale. 809 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: So we might have dual criminality. New York might actually say, um, 810 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 1: you did do a crime, so I will extradite you. 811 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,319 Speaker 1: Which is why we think there also needs to be 812 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: a human rights defense. And this may also extend to, well, 813 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 1: we're not going to extradite them to Texas because they 814 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,799 Speaker 1: have the death penalty and we think that is a 815 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 1: clear contravention of human rights. Maybe we can extend it 816 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,439 Speaker 1: to prison conditions. I don't know how that far that goes. Again, 817 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 1: these are things I don't know they'd be likely to 818 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,480 Speaker 1: be codified. But if we're actually dreaming up the world 819 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,080 Speaker 1: that we think where this could work, like I, as 820 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: your attorney, should be able to come in and say 821 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,879 Speaker 1: there's no dual criminality, this isn't contravention of human rights. 822 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 1: And once I mount that defense, then the court is 823 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,879 Speaker 1: bound to release you while we sort that out. Um. 824 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 1: And and that is sort of our vision. Another thing 825 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 1: that that Alejandro mentioned the ver the Vermont law um 826 00:44:58,160 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 1: in the eight hundreds, and one of the things that 827 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,399 Speaker 1: it's said was you could get a jury of your 828 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: peers in a situation like this. There's no jury in 829 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,319 Speaker 1: an extradition case. But the idea, of course is that 830 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,320 Speaker 1: a jury is going to say this is morally wrong. 831 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: I don't care what the law says. We're not sending 832 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,640 Speaker 1: this person back to enslavement. And the idea here is 833 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: if you put a jury in and you assert of 834 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 1: human rights defense, perhaps the jury will say, no, we're 835 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 1: not sending you. So these are these are a lot 836 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: of ideas that we've been coming up with. So we're 837 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: doing the plan. There was jury nullification, yes, and it 838 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 1: absolutely was. That absolutely was jury nullification. Love love love 839 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 1: love love love jury nullification. Anybody with the law review 840 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 1: that's listening to this, let me write about jury nullification 841 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,319 Speaker 1: for you. And I feel like, but but we we we. 842 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 1: I feel like I have been wanting to explain jury 843 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: unification on this show literally sensive, Like I asked if 844 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,719 Speaker 1: I could do an episode on it the first week, 845 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: coming back for the next one. So there's something that 846 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 1: I don't want to be lost. And that's the idea 847 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,320 Speaker 1: of like people don't necessarily know what they're being charged 848 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: with in the state that's asking for them to go 849 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,319 Speaker 1: back because there's not really a requirement that that so 850 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,640 Speaker 1: for an extradition, like thinking through what you actually need, 851 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,480 Speaker 1: like the bare bones of an extradition. It needs to 852 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,800 Speaker 1: be like a piece of paper that's signed by the governor, 853 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: but not necessarily the governor of the state, but somebody 854 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,680 Speaker 1: with authority to ask for you to return back. And 855 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: that's in essence it, right, just like a piece of 856 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 1: paper signed by somebody that says x y Z birthdate, 857 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:40,919 Speaker 1: x y Z did a crime in our state? Give 858 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,839 Speaker 1: them back to us. Right, they don't have to say 859 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,360 Speaker 1: what crime? Not really a requirement. It usually says it, 860 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,880 Speaker 1: but it doesn't. It doesn't require a probable cause affid David, 861 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,360 Speaker 1: which I think is really the more important part. It 862 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,920 Speaker 1: doesn't require you to prove that there is enough to 863 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,319 Speaker 1: charge them with a crime in the sin Ding state. Right, 864 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: So we're saying that's a bare minimum change that we 865 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: can make two laws to make the state that's asking 866 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 1: for you to use your resources to put somebody in 867 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 1: a cage and then put them in a traveling cage 868 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,359 Speaker 1: to bring them to our cages. Um. And I keep 869 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,200 Speaker 1: saying the word cage because I don't want us to 870 00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,040 Speaker 1: move away from what like prisons and jails actually are. 871 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,560 Speaker 1: It's like bars and cages and boxes, right, So it 872 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 1: doesn't really harm the system, doesn't really teary all apart 873 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 1: to say, and here's what they're being charged within the 874 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 1: reason why, because that would be the bare minimum for 875 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,960 Speaker 1: someone to be charged for a crime in New York. 876 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 1: You would need to have probable cause for the arrest. 877 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,360 Speaker 1: And then a judge that's sitting on the bench gets 878 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,040 Speaker 1: to say, Yep, there's enough probable cause for this person 879 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,719 Speaker 1: to be charged next court date, you know. And but 880 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,120 Speaker 1: we don't have that with extradition. We just trust that 881 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,319 Speaker 1: the wheels of bureaucracy are turning the way that they 882 00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,320 Speaker 1: need to. Holy crap, that can harm so many people. 883 00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,360 Speaker 1: So we're just saying, hey, make them write it down. 884 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,040 Speaker 1: So maybe a judge that's sitting in Illinois can look 885 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,600 Speaker 1: at this warrant from Missouri that says we want X 886 00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,240 Speaker 1: y Z back here because of a self managed abortion, 887 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 1: and then they can see whether or not Illinois's new 888 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,680 Speaker 1: fancy extradition law, which they haven't written up and I'm 889 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,279 Speaker 1: sure they will, applies, right. I think that's a bare 890 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,160 Speaker 1: minimum that we can do. And as much as I 891 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,279 Speaker 1: crave shaking systems and searing them apart, I don't think 892 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,440 Speaker 1: that's going to be a thing that does it. But 893 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,320 Speaker 1: it might you know, have y'all ever played Mario Kart, 894 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 1: You know, when you're driving and you're able to throw 895 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,799 Speaker 1: like the turtle shell or the banana, that might be 896 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:42,040 Speaker 1: the banana that might slow down the process of somebody 897 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,279 Speaker 1: kind of getting dragged along on this course. Well, and 898 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,279 Speaker 1: I think I think there's like there's another thing that 899 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,479 Speaker 1: that would do too, which is that that vice time 900 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,320 Speaker 1: for community response, because like you know, if if we 901 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,800 Speaker 1: go back to sort off the ice stuff, it was like, well, yeah, okay, 902 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 1: like ice raids weren't stopped by the sanctuary laws. The 903 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:02,960 Speaker 1: thing that like did slow them down was massive community response. Yeah, 904 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,759 Speaker 1: I think I think that's very Uh, it's certainly I've 905 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,359 Speaker 1: seen that happen here, Like in San Diego. It wasn't 906 00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:12,520 Speaker 1: any of our performative Democrats laws. It was people getting 907 00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,880 Speaker 1: out into the street. Now I was gonna say, there's 908 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,040 Speaker 1: It's also like in the UK in the last couple 909 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,040 Speaker 1: of months, there's been a lot of really really impressive 910 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,719 Speaker 1: community defense things and like cops showing up and like 911 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 1: just entire communities and neighborhoods showing up with the cops 912 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:31,240 Speaker 1: just like running away. And it's been it's been incredible 913 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:36,080 Speaker 1: to watch, and you two can also do this. But 914 00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:40,520 Speaker 1: performative democrats keep giving us good laws like give us something, 915 00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,240 Speaker 1: give anything, like a nub of a thing that folks 916 00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 1: can hang their hats on. Um. I just don't want 917 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:51,120 Speaker 1: any politician out there to think that they're absolved from 918 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:55,960 Speaker 1: the job of protecting people. Yeah, well, and I think 919 00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:57,400 Speaker 1: I think again to think with these laws, right, it's 920 00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,680 Speaker 1: like you you actually like with this extraditions stuff, Like 921 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,560 Speaker 1: I don't know how, Like I don't I don't know 922 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 1: how you would even like try to stop it unless 923 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:13,680 Speaker 1: like because like you don't know, like I mean, I like, 924 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,759 Speaker 1: unless unless're gonna commit to try to stop trying to 925 00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:17,560 Speaker 1: stop every person who gets arrested, which I think is 926 00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:19,799 Speaker 1: like a noble goal. But like there's no, we don't 927 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:21,840 Speaker 1: have a capacity for that. Like if we lived in 928 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,480 Speaker 1: a world where we could do that, like the world 929 00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:29,920 Speaker 1: will be much better and the state would be running 930 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,200 Speaker 1: for its life. But yeah, it's like like it seems 931 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:37,279 Speaker 1: like a thing that like it gives like it gives 932 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,200 Speaker 1: time for the law to act. More importantly, it's like 933 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,760 Speaker 1: it gives time for us to act. And that seems 934 00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,239 Speaker 1: absolutely one of the most important thing is that it's 935 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,360 Speaker 1: buying time for people to organize and people to be 936 00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:48,920 Speaker 1: able to push back, and also creates a lot of 937 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,279 Speaker 1: higher barrier right Like at the end of the day, 938 00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,319 Speaker 1: like these systems are still made up people, and people 939 00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 1: are incredibly lazy and oftentimes like the police and other 940 00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:59,480 Speaker 1: folks like don't want to have to deal with like 941 00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: engage and going with like an extradition request because of 942 00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:07,600 Speaker 1: the actual process for dealing with that is actually very onerous, like, um, 943 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,000 Speaker 1: they have physically go to the state to pick them up, 944 00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:11,640 Speaker 1: and they have to like do all these things, right, 945 00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:13,880 Speaker 1: And so what we're doing is like we're suggesting make 946 00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,399 Speaker 1: it even harder, like make it absolutely hard for them 947 00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,279 Speaker 1: to go through this and actually have to litigate in 948 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,080 Speaker 1: courts and like bring all this stuff, um and just 949 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:23,319 Speaker 1: basically like so down the process and raise that kind 950 00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,600 Speaker 1: of buried entry on it. But you know, I thinks, 951 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:29,000 Speaker 1: like I think that's you know, very um important to say. 952 00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:32,160 Speaker 1: Is like, you know, the commune defense aspect cannot be 953 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,720 Speaker 1: overstated because at the end of the day, like laws 954 00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,480 Speaker 1: are just words on paper, right, Like it's it's the 955 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,839 Speaker 1: people that give them the effect and the power. So 956 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:42,879 Speaker 1: really what we need is like people say, like this 957 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,000 Speaker 1: is morally wrong, right, Like we're not going to prosecute 958 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,719 Speaker 1: people for for exercising their bodily autonomy, engaging in a 959 00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:51,600 Speaker 1: fundamental human right. And so you know when one of 960 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:53,040 Speaker 1: the things I have been heartened by is you know, 961 00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,120 Speaker 1: um like um for John Brown gun Club and Dallas 962 00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,400 Speaker 1: like what they've been doing, like protecting houseless folks like 963 00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:04,360 Speaker 1: under the overpasses, Like they show up and like you know, 964 00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:06,520 Speaker 1: in Texas they can open carry, and like the police 965 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:08,440 Speaker 1: don't want to deal with them. So they're like buying 966 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:12,000 Speaker 1: a few more days so that the Dallas police doesn't 967 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,279 Speaker 1: um come in and sweep you know, the only belongings 968 00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,080 Speaker 1: that these people have. And like that in and of 969 00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,600 Speaker 1: itself brought so much attention that like brought so much 970 00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,040 Speaker 1: scrutiny to Dallas p D's actions. So like is that 971 00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,600 Speaker 1: kind of community defense? And I think it also harks 972 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:31,319 Speaker 1: back to how these extraditions issues like prior to like 973 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,680 Speaker 1: the Civil War worked out. It wasn't necessarily like these 974 00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:39,360 Speaker 1: formal systems in Vermont that like stopped you know, escaped 975 00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,320 Speaker 1: as like persons from being returned back to the South. 976 00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,520 Speaker 1: It was like entire mods of people coming and like 977 00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,200 Speaker 1: being like, you're not taking this person out of our town, 978 00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:50,560 Speaker 1: and if you try to, you're not gonna leave here. 979 00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:54,239 Speaker 1: Like as a whole person, I guess it's probably the 980 00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:58,000 Speaker 1: best way to put that, um shoot your local bounty hunters. Yeah, 981 00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,319 Speaker 1: and so like essentially like that that's how it worked, right, 982 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:02,640 Speaker 1: And like you know, at the end of the day, 983 00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:04,160 Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, I don't want to do 984 00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,160 Speaker 1: some kind of violence, but like it like what really 985 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:07,880 Speaker 1: what it means is like when people show up and 986 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,840 Speaker 1: they physically put themselves in the way, it makes it 987 00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:14,480 Speaker 1: so much harder for the like this kind of wheel 988 00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,239 Speaker 1: of injustice to continue. And so that's really what it's 989 00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:19,719 Speaker 1: going to take. I'm like you were mentioning with like 990 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:21,840 Speaker 1: the with the ice raids and everything like that, Like 991 00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:25,799 Speaker 1: it took people sometimes physically putting their bodies in front 992 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,480 Speaker 1: of ice fans to stop them from driving away and 993 00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,799 Speaker 1: like chaining themselves to stuff, and like that's the kind 994 00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,239 Speaker 1: of like non violent like direct action that I think 995 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:38,480 Speaker 1: is like gonna be like needed. Yeah, And I think 996 00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:41,560 Speaker 1: folks seem to have figured out that their district attorneys 997 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,960 Speaker 1: are elected and the person bringing the fugitive case, which 998 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:46,880 Speaker 1: I don't think I've been crystal clear about is the 999 00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,560 Speaker 1: district attorney. So then the police officer is going to 1000 00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,239 Speaker 1: go to the district attorney's office, and that is the 1001 00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,359 Speaker 1: person who's going to bring the court case to help 1002 00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,560 Speaker 1: facilitate sending the person um. And I know in New 1003 00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:01,799 Speaker 1: York intently it has seen a number of successes of 1004 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:05,279 Speaker 1: folks organizing around individual People would be saying, you need 1005 00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,880 Speaker 1: to drop these charges. This conviction got overturned, you should 1006 00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:11,160 Speaker 1: not be continuing with the case. This person is a 1007 00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,760 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, folks are organizing around, right, And so 1008 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:23,239 Speaker 1: if we can create some delays whereby the person is free, right, 1009 00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,120 Speaker 1: because this is the key thing. We don't want people incarcerated. 1010 00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:31,560 Speaker 1: Incarceration in of itself is extreme violence. Right, So if 1011 00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,839 Speaker 1: the person is not incarcerated, then we can sort of 1012 00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:38,239 Speaker 1: delay this process and organize around, pressuring whoever needs to 1013 00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:44,200 Speaker 1: be pressured, particularly the two Democratic politicians who say there 1014 00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,080 Speaker 1: against all of this stuff. But then at the end 1015 00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:48,000 Speaker 1: of the day, are they going to ignore the homicide 1016 00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,359 Speaker 1: extradition warrant? Like that's where the rubber meets the rule. 1017 00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,160 Speaker 1: Are you going to do it or not? Right, and 1018 00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:55,160 Speaker 1: and and I think that's a much harder question when 1019 00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:58,359 Speaker 1: it comes down to that for them, because they're like, well, 1020 00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,520 Speaker 1: it's a homicide warrant, right, and so that's where they 1021 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,719 Speaker 1: need the pressure, because um, all the wild ideas go 1022 00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,960 Speaker 1: out the door in that moment. Yeah, I think, like, 1023 00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:09,759 Speaker 1: I think that's the thing with with these people. It's 1024 00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,560 Speaker 1: like ideologically like they don't care enough to do it, 1025 00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:14,600 Speaker 1: do it? But if you but you can force them 1026 00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:18,560 Speaker 1: to care about having a Yeah, well it's not not 1027 00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,359 Speaker 1: even just so much that like there there are long 1028 00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,920 Speaker 1: established ways of putting pressure on people and systems that 1029 00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:26,719 Speaker 1: can force them to do things they don't want to do. 1030 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:32,480 Speaker 1: And yeah, go do that because we're going to need it. Frankly, 1031 00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:36,920 Speaker 1: I think part of this is also destigmatizing work, right, um, 1032 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:42,880 Speaker 1: because when we have kind of these big divergent ideas, 1033 00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,640 Speaker 1: when we find ourselves at the split of like good 1034 00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:50,239 Speaker 1: versus evil, right, like slavery versus not slavery, bodily autonomy 1035 00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:56,520 Speaker 1: versus not bodily autonomy. Um, sometimes the good guys compromise 1036 00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:58,960 Speaker 1: to the point that we get ourselves to this position 1037 00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:03,400 Speaker 1: later on down the line, and what we can do 1038 00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,759 Speaker 1: is kind of galvanized community response and also civic engagement 1039 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,279 Speaker 1: by forcing folks to take a look at the laws 1040 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,000 Speaker 1: that we so rely on and questioning why does this 1041 00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:15,120 Speaker 1: thing exist this way? Why is this process moving that way? 1042 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,280 Speaker 1: Someone that didn't know that. Folks facing an extradition warrant 1043 00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,040 Speaker 1: like often have to make the decision at an arrayment. 1044 00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,160 Speaker 1: Am I going to waive my right to extradition and 1045 00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:27,560 Speaker 1: wait for them to come get me because they said 1046 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:29,920 Speaker 1: that takes thirty days for them to come and get you. 1047 00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:31,719 Speaker 1: But if you don't wait, if it's going to take 1048 00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:33,960 Speaker 1: ninety days to them to come and get you, so 1049 00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:37,560 Speaker 1: you'll be sitting there longer. And that's a decision that 1050 00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,800 Speaker 1: you need to make. Kind of like in that moment, 1051 00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:45,880 Speaker 1: if we're talking about extradition in normal conversation, we're moving 1052 00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,840 Speaker 1: forward to a place where we're destigmatizing and frankly demystifying 1053 00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:51,960 Speaker 1: what the criminal legal system really looks like. In the 1054 00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:55,280 Speaker 1: nuts and bolts. It might end up with better conversations 1055 00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:57,759 Speaker 1: and better output for folks in the future. It might 1056 00:56:57,840 --> 00:56:59,839 Speaker 1: end up with you being able to talk about jury 1057 00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:03,360 Speaker 1: and allification and having like and not having it be 1058 00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,560 Speaker 1: kind of like a shaking the table conversation, because frankly, 1059 00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,720 Speaker 1: these are all like civics. Civics, it's rights, it's things 1060 00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,680 Speaker 1: that are written in the constitution that governs us, where 1061 00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:15,359 Speaker 1: the cops don't need to know the law, but we're 1062 00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:19,400 Speaker 1: all expected to write. So it takes all kinds, it 1063 00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,520 Speaker 1: takes all responses for us to just get to the 1064 00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:25,960 Speaker 1: place that's better than the stop gap that Row had 1065 00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,200 Speaker 1: been giving us for the last forties some odd years. 1066 00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,160 Speaker 1: And I'll say, like, the one thing that does terrify 1067 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,080 Speaker 1: me in this end is like, or I guess like 1068 00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:34,680 Speaker 1: really concerns me is like what Ronda Santis just did 1069 00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,760 Speaker 1: in Florida in Hillsboro County. Like I grew up in 1070 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,440 Speaker 1: Hillsboro County, so I'm from there. So it's like, like 1071 00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:44,960 Speaker 1: the twice elected UH state attorney there was just suspended 1072 00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:49,960 Speaker 1: because he said he would refuse to um prosecute crimes 1073 00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:52,760 Speaker 1: related to abortion and gender firm me carry like also 1074 00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,280 Speaker 1: refused to prosecute trans people using the bathroom. Right, So 1075 00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:59,000 Speaker 1: like these kinds of things, and the Santis just like 1076 00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,760 Speaker 1: sacked him, Right, an elected person that reflects the values 1077 00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,280 Speaker 1: of that county, and so like that, That's the other 1078 00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,520 Speaker 1: thing to be aware of. It's you know, like even 1079 00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,120 Speaker 1: when you do exercise that power and like say like 1080 00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:13,000 Speaker 1: this is our as a community, these are our values 1081 00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,920 Speaker 1: on like who we should be prioritizing. Um, in the 1082 00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,600 Speaker 1: criminal justice system. There are still people out there that 1083 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,840 Speaker 1: will will try to circumvent that in a very authoritarian 1084 00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,600 Speaker 1: and autocratic way and so um, you know, I think 1085 00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:28,120 Speaker 1: it's not just who you're voting for your local d A. 1086 00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:30,040 Speaker 1: Who are you running for? A governor? Who are you 1087 00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,040 Speaker 1: running for? Like you know, these people that have broader 1088 00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:46,440 Speaker 1: powers over this. I wanted to briefly talk about this 1089 00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,440 Speaker 1: because I know like it was proposed at least by 1090 00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:53,120 Speaker 1: my representative the and I think it's being bandied about 1091 00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,840 Speaker 1: as a solution, and uh, it doesn't seem like it is. 1092 00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:02,040 Speaker 1: But this My Body, My Data Act, which I was 1093 00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:04,720 Speaker 1: trying to read through it a little earlier. It seems 1094 00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:08,240 Speaker 1: like it allows people to like sue tech companies for 1095 00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:11,360 Speaker 1: selling their data that leads to their prosecution. I don't know, 1096 00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,240 Speaker 1: if you're familiar with it, that maybe we could just 1097 00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:18,120 Speaker 1: discuss a little bit what No, Okay, all right, I 1098 00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,840 Speaker 1: mean so I'm not familiar, but based on what you 1099 00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:23,959 Speaker 1: just said, right, I think there's this and I really 1100 00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:25,920 Speaker 1: think it goes back to what EVCO is saying about 1101 00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:30,960 Speaker 1: folks just like not not fully understanding precisely how the 1102 00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:37,400 Speaker 1: criminal legal system just like runs over people. Okay, great, 1103 00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:39,840 Speaker 1: so I can sue the tech company after the police 1104 00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,560 Speaker 1: have put me in a cage and and convicted me 1105 00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:46,439 Speaker 1: based on the day like like, Okay, I mean great, 1106 00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:48,360 Speaker 1: maybe I'll have a lot of money on my commissary, 1107 00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:53,080 Speaker 1: my family will have enough um like funds to come 1108 00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,520 Speaker 1: drive and visit me at whatever state prison they've got 1109 00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:59,040 Speaker 1: me locked up in, right, like like, this is where 1110 00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:03,040 Speaker 1: we have to step back and think, is this is 1111 01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:07,560 Speaker 1: this thing actually preventing the harm? Because I think a 1112 01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:09,840 Speaker 1: lot of times folks are just like we can do them, 1113 01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,720 Speaker 1: or we could get back at them. And I also 1114 01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:15,960 Speaker 1: want folks to remember that just making something illegal does 1115 01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:20,240 Speaker 1: not prevent harm, right, and and a whole another conversation 1116 01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,760 Speaker 1: about criminalization as a solution to anything, which I think 1117 01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:26,480 Speaker 1: it is not um but but just on on the 1118 01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:28,960 Speaker 1: face of what you've said to me, that doesn't sound 1119 01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,760 Speaker 1: like a solution that if I it wouldn't feel adequate 1120 01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:35,840 Speaker 1: to me if if I were in that And also 1121 01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:39,800 Speaker 1: thinking about how cases become cases. From what we know, 1122 01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,600 Speaker 1: it's not again, it's not coming from big data down right. 1123 01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,480 Speaker 1: For the most part. It certainly can happen, but really 1124 01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:53,080 Speaker 1: what's happening is violations of people's Fourth Amendment rights. Cops 1125 01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:56,480 Speaker 1: being able to access things on people's actual devices, oftentimes 1126 01:00:56,480 --> 01:01:00,920 Speaker 1: without warrants, oftentimes by not fully explaining that people have 1127 01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,360 Speaker 1: the right to say no. Um. And I'm sure Michelle 1128 01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,400 Speaker 1: has had clients that were like, oh, they just took 1129 01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:09,640 Speaker 1: my phone. How many times have we heard that? Right, 1130 01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:12,040 Speaker 1: they just took my phone and started going through it. 1131 01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:14,320 Speaker 1: A police officer that does that is not going to 1132 01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:16,320 Speaker 1: write in their report. And I just took his phone 1133 01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,160 Speaker 1: without any permission. It's always permission was granted. It was 1134 01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:23,440 Speaker 1: in plane view. I saw it from the street. I 1135 01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,640 Speaker 1: smelled it as he was walking by. Like, if the 1136 01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:31,720 Speaker 1: laws that are being created are not actually responsive to 1137 01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:34,480 Speaker 1: the harm that folks are experiencing in a way that 1138 01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:37,120 Speaker 1: actually prevents it, then we need to kind of push 1139 01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:40,840 Speaker 1: back at our legislators and say, Okay, this is great, 1140 01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:43,959 Speaker 1: but is it responding to the thing that you're saying 1141 01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,520 Speaker 1: it's responding to, because yeah, shout out to people being 1142 01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:48,600 Speaker 1: able to sue big Tech for selling our data without 1143 01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:53,040 Speaker 1: our permission? Bet, But is that gonna prevent prosecutors from 1144 01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:59,120 Speaker 1: going after folks that have abortions? Probably not, Because even 1145 01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:01,720 Speaker 1: in the Nebraska case that Alejandra mentioned at the top 1146 01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,760 Speaker 1: of the hour, that was a warrant that was signed 1147 01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:07,040 Speaker 1: by judge. It was a search warrant that was provided 1148 01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:10,000 Speaker 1: to Facebook that didn't say the words abortion on it, 1149 01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:12,320 Speaker 1: that didn't say that we're going after someone for abortion, 1150 01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:14,960 Speaker 1: had I think the words like abuse of a corpse 1151 01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:17,840 Speaker 1: or something of that nature on there, And for them 1152 01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:21,720 Speaker 1: it was wrote what they normally do, bureaucracy search warrants, 1153 01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:24,919 Speaker 1: stamp here's the data that you're looking for. A law 1154 01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:27,200 Speaker 1: that prevents folks from selling your data doesn't prevent that 1155 01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,720 Speaker 1: from happening. Something I think a lot about those. One 1156 01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:34,000 Speaker 1: of my sort of like former political experiences was back 1157 01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:36,040 Speaker 1: in like, I think this is something which isn't twelve 1158 01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:41,000 Speaker 1: doesn't thirteen um, right after the revolution in Bahrain. So okay, 1159 01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:43,720 Speaker 1: So the revolution in Bahrain, Saudi tanks roll in, they 1160 01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:46,320 Speaker 1: crush it, they kill a bunch of people, and the 1161 01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:48,320 Speaker 1: government starts doing this crackdown the way the government does 1162 01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,280 Speaker 1: to crackdown is they go they go to Facebook and 1163 01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:53,880 Speaker 1: they take stuff those on people's public accounts, and then 1164 01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:55,600 Speaker 1: they go to Facebook and they asked them for information 1165 01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,160 Speaker 1: and Facebook turns it over, and you know, the government 1166 01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:01,240 Speaker 1: just goes to and finds everyone who's at a protest 1167 01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:04,640 Speaker 1: and starts arresting them. And you know, Facebook was just 1168 01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:09,440 Speaker 1: like m hm, and like that if if if if 1169 01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,040 Speaker 1: if if if they if they will comply with a 1170 01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:15,600 Speaker 1: literal monarchy who has had a second monarchy send an 1171 01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:17,760 Speaker 1: army across the border in order to crush a bunch 1172 01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,439 Speaker 1: of protests, Like they're going to comply with the US 1173 01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:22,720 Speaker 1: and they're gonna keep doing this stuff to you. And 1174 01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:27,920 Speaker 1: so yeah, I was like, I like, even if you 1175 01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,360 Speaker 1: can sue them, they're still going to cooperate with the U. S. 1176 01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:34,080 Speaker 1: Government because yeah, they have a great financial interest in 1177 01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:37,560 Speaker 1: doing big tech doesn't give a funk about you. Yeah, 1178 01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,160 Speaker 1: I think folks, again, as he was saying, like Eca saying, 1179 01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:43,000 Speaker 1: it was just so like this is wrote, this is 1180 01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,720 Speaker 1: what they do every day. This is not that serious 1181 01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:47,600 Speaker 1: or that deep to them. And I think we need 1182 01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:51,880 Speaker 1: to start asking bigger questions about why do we have 1183 01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,680 Speaker 1: a system where so easy for the government to just 1184 01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:58,640 Speaker 1: like come in and um, have a subpoena signed, like 1185 01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:01,360 Speaker 1: the subpoenas are easy to get, like we have. These 1186 01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:04,160 Speaker 1: mechanisms are all in place. And that's what I was 1187 01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:08,200 Speaker 1: sort of saying earlier is that I think folks who 1188 01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:10,320 Speaker 1: haven't been paying attention to this, who are all of 1189 01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:13,760 Speaker 1: a sudden like, wow, how is this happening? Oh my goodness, Well, 1190 01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,160 Speaker 1: these are the machines of massive coarceration that we have 1191 01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:19,920 Speaker 1: spent a few decades really building up. And so now 1192 01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:23,240 Speaker 1: when the person the people you're sympathetic with start to 1193 01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:28,760 Speaker 1: get criminalized all of a sudden, we're very shocked. And listen, however, 1194 01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,640 Speaker 1: you got here, great welcome. I'm glad folks are here 1195 01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:34,720 Speaker 1: and saying like, wow, this is a problem. And I 1196 01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:38,920 Speaker 1: want folks to think the If the abortion context and 1197 01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:44,000 Speaker 1: the self managed abortion is your entry point, I hope 1198 01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:45,760 Speaker 1: it is not the end point. I hope that you 1199 01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:50,680 Speaker 1: are thinking bigger about how did all these systems get here? 1200 01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:55,080 Speaker 1: Who do they serve? And and and I hope how 1201 01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:58,240 Speaker 1: do we dismantle them? Because it's it's not just this 1202 01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:01,000 Speaker 1: select few people group of people that we should care about. 1203 01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:02,720 Speaker 1: I think is all the people who are who are 1204 01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:06,400 Speaker 1: exposed to this on the daily. Um. So yeah, that's 1205 01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:12,240 Speaker 1: my soapbox. I always wonder how many judges, um have 1206 01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:14,840 Speaker 1: refused to sign a search warrant. That's like a big 1207 01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:19,160 Speaker 1: wonder of mine. I don't judges don't hang out with me, 1208 01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:22,840 Speaker 1: obviously for a lot of obvious reasons. But if I 1209 01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:26,120 Speaker 1: were to like just whisper in my ear real quick, 1210 01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:28,600 Speaker 1: how many times have you ever said no to a 1211 01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:31,360 Speaker 1: police officer that comes to ask to swear a warrant 1212 01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:33,520 Speaker 1: in front of you? How many times have you found 1213 01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:38,479 Speaker 1: there is no probable cause? Dude? Like to to be fair, 1214 01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:41,040 Speaker 1: there there there are, there have there There have to 1215 01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:42,720 Speaker 1: be a certain number of times where they're trying to 1216 01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:50,480 Speaker 1: go after another judge. Judges, I don't know, and it's 1217 01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:54,280 Speaker 1: good to have happened once like that. There has to 1218 01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:57,120 Speaker 1: have been one time where it was like this judge 1219 01:05:57,120 --> 01:05:58,760 Speaker 1: piste me off, I'm going to go rd his car 1220 01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:02,400 Speaker 1: or something. Never never that I can probably like that, 1221 01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,479 Speaker 1: I can think about never happening. But I just wonder 1222 01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:08,240 Speaker 1: how many times has somebody said we are going to 1223 01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:10,680 Speaker 1: go search for drugs and X y Z house in 1224 01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:14,160 Speaker 1: this specific neighborhood that that a judges says, huh, you 1225 01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:18,200 Speaker 1: don't have enough here, try again, it doesn't happen. Yeah, 1226 01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:22,440 Speaker 1: at least told in federal court maybe maybe you know, 1227 01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:25,240 Speaker 1: they turned down one out of but in state court, 1228 01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:30,480 Speaker 1: my experience is it's it's it's again, it's routine. It's 1229 01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:32,160 Speaker 1: just how things go. I mean. One of the one 1230 01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:33,840 Speaker 1: of the things that I came across when I was 1231 01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:35,920 Speaker 1: you know, and I just not dealing with particularly judges 1232 01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:39,080 Speaker 1: issuing warrants, but one of the things I did when 1233 01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:41,000 Speaker 1: when I was looking into the payment Apple issue this 1234 01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:44,480 Speaker 1: past uh spring, um, is you know, I talked to 1235 01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:46,760 Speaker 1: a former prosecutor and was like, you know, what is 1236 01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:50,720 Speaker 1: it like to get documents from or or data from 1237 01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:54,440 Speaker 1: like Facebook and you know, Instagram or Meta whatnot, or 1238 01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:57,280 Speaker 1: like Twitter or any of these other places. And they 1239 01:06:57,280 --> 01:07:00,600 Speaker 1: were just like, oh, we just sent a requests like 1240 01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:03,280 Speaker 1: we don't even like it's basically an administrative subpoena, and 1241 01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:06,760 Speaker 1: they just like hand over everything like, um, it's basically 1242 01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:09,919 Speaker 1: they're just like so routine. Oftentimes, especially if it's coming 1243 01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:14,400 Speaker 1: from a district attorney's office or law enforcement like often 1244 01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:18,600 Speaker 1: times these companies just like casually handover stuff all the time, 1245 01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:22,600 Speaker 1: especially when it's like dealing with low level drug stuff 1246 01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:26,320 Speaker 1: um or any kind of like issues like that. You know, 1247 01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:28,680 Speaker 1: they like to say, oh, we're we're big on on 1248 01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:31,560 Speaker 1: civil rights and stuff like that and making sure your 1249 01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:35,480 Speaker 1: data is protected. In reality, like there's so many requests 1250 01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:37,840 Speaker 1: around this stuff, and it's just, you know, the only 1251 01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:39,720 Speaker 1: time they ever maybe make a standard when a case 1252 01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:42,400 Speaker 1: is higher profile and that may damage their brands, right, 1253 01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:44,320 Speaker 1: and that's that's the only time they actually ever care. 1254 01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:47,560 Speaker 1: On the defense attorney side, it's hard as heck to 1255 01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:51,480 Speaker 1: get your client's records for things like so hard, so 1256 01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:54,320 Speaker 1: so hard. You're looking for information on a Facebook for 1257 01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:56,960 Speaker 1: somebody that's incarcerated that might get them out of jail, 1258 01:07:57,320 --> 01:07:59,640 Speaker 1: and they don't remember their password, you don't know how 1259 01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:02,000 Speaker 1: to get into their stuff, and it needs to be 1260 01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:04,840 Speaker 1: not a screenshot because that you might not be able 1261 01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:07,440 Speaker 1: to get that authenticated and admissible in court. And it 1262 01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:10,520 Speaker 1: is so hard when you're working on the other side 1263 01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,680 Speaker 1: and not in law enforcement to get data and information. 1264 01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:15,840 Speaker 1: But on the flip side, when it comes to like 1265 01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:20,160 Speaker 1: people's medical information, which comes into play in a lot 1266 01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:23,200 Speaker 1: of these cases, because we're at this intersection of bodily 1267 01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:27,479 Speaker 1: autonomy and health in the criminal legal system. We've certainly 1268 01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:30,520 Speaker 1: seen in cases where folks are having a medical emergency 1269 01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:32,920 Speaker 1: and cops are able to just go and do a 1270 01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:35,519 Speaker 1: bedside interview with somebody that's coming out of surgery still 1271 01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:37,960 Speaker 1: drugged up. Right, They're able to just go up to 1272 01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:39,720 Speaker 1: a charge and or something like so, how's he doing, 1273 01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:45,800 Speaker 1: and they're getting information. That's wild because I have had 1274 01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:50,880 Speaker 1: request for my clients medical records with signed HIPPA authorizations 1275 01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:54,000 Speaker 1: returned because I signed with blue ink instead of black ink. 1276 01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:58,000 Speaker 1: It's not wrote. It's not wrote when it's not coming 1277 01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:00,760 Speaker 1: from law enforcements sometimes, and that's kind of the wild thing. 1278 01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:05,280 Speaker 1: There's this assumption that folks and law enforcement have a 1279 01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:09,160 Speaker 1: right to all information at all times forever, and that's 1280 01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:11,479 Speaker 1: where things get rubber stamped, and that's the stuff that 1281 01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:14,200 Speaker 1: we're not really looking at that have large impact on 1282 01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:19,200 Speaker 1: how people access their rights. I was just as we 1283 01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:21,760 Speaker 1: were talking about like Facebook doing everything about you and 1284 01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:26,360 Speaker 1: loving the cops, I was like reminded of Foko's Panopticon 1285 01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:29,360 Speaker 1: and like this idea that you'll start to internal life 1286 01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:33,360 Speaker 1: discipline because you never know when you're being watched, right, um, 1287 01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:36,840 Speaker 1: And so I wondered, like if obviously, like when UGO 1288 01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:38,840 Speaker 1: talks about it, the idea is that you will do 1289 01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:41,439 Speaker 1: you act like you think the state is watching because 1290 01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:43,880 Speaker 1: the state could always be watching. Therefore you have to 1291 01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:47,240 Speaker 1: act like it is watching. Uh, and like it's if 1292 01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:50,360 Speaker 1: we're not there yet, right like that there have you 1293 01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:54,479 Speaker 1: not heard the FBI and your phone joke? The FBI 1294 01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:57,280 Speaker 1: on my computer? Like, I hope he likes my makeup today. 1295 01:09:57,280 --> 01:09:59,600 Speaker 1: We're totally there, Like I think there's an assumption that 1296 01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:02,720 Speaker 1: we're all you can watched. Well, I don't know. Even 1297 01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:06,559 Speaker 1: sometimes I wish our clients I thought they were watched 1298 01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:11,519 Speaker 1: more because sometimes people put too much on Facebook do well, yeah, 1299 01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:13,559 Speaker 1: you're right, let me not keep myself from that because 1300 01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:17,920 Speaker 1: I am very much included. Yeah. But yeah, so like 1301 01:10:18,120 --> 01:10:19,960 Speaker 1: that's what I wanted to ask, right, Like how do 1302 01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:24,519 Speaker 1: we not I you know, we don't want people to 1303 01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:28,840 Speaker 1: listen to some do crimes, but like how should people 1304 01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:32,640 Speaker 1: act in their interactions like in in a way that 1305 01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:37,320 Speaker 1: is like I guess I don't know that it makes 1306 01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:40,759 Speaker 1: them less vulnerable to like these very obvious upsets fails. 1307 01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:45,599 Speaker 1: I guess, Um, I have some resources, so if one 1308 01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:48,680 Speaker 1: how we have this thing called the repro Legal Helpline. 1309 01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:51,719 Speaker 1: It's repro legal Helpline dot org. It's also a warm 1310 01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:54,000 Speaker 1: line with the phone number that people can call and 1311 01:10:54,040 --> 01:10:56,960 Speaker 1: ask questions like what are my rights when it comes 1312 01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:59,760 Speaker 1: to my abortion my self managed abortion? And on that 1313 01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:02,519 Speaker 1: way site, we have digital tips about how do you 1314 01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:06,320 Speaker 1: protect yourself and sanitize your digital space just for safety 1315 01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:09,200 Speaker 1: as a whole, not to hide information from everyone, but 1316 01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:12,759 Speaker 1: how do you move and prevent and minimize your risks? 1317 01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:15,599 Speaker 1: What does harm reduction look like to you? We also 1318 01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:18,960 Speaker 1: have the repro Legal Defense Fund and that exists for 1319 01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:21,800 Speaker 1: folks when they are actually being criminalized to pay for 1320 01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:25,080 Speaker 1: things like bail, help out with attorneys fees, help out 1321 01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:28,080 Speaker 1: with expert fees. So there are folks that are working 1322 01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:31,680 Speaker 1: on this stuff that exists as resources, and there are 1323 01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:35,519 Speaker 1: resources out there. But I would tell folks to really 1324 01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:38,200 Speaker 1: think about who are you telling your business to UM 1325 01:11:38,280 --> 01:11:41,400 Speaker 1: when you share information, is that information that's necessary for 1326 01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:45,240 Speaker 1: treatment that you're being asked? UM? Just because we're used 1327 01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:47,800 Speaker 1: to being in spaces where there is a power and 1328 01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:51,240 Speaker 1: balance about sharing all of the information that's asked of us, 1329 01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:53,800 Speaker 1: and I think when it comes to spaces and times 1330 01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:58,320 Speaker 1: where we're more vulnerable, um to state actors causing harm 1331 01:11:58,360 --> 01:12:01,200 Speaker 1: to us, being mindful about what questions are you being 1332 01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:03,640 Speaker 1: asked and is that question necessary for you to be 1333 01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:06,960 Speaker 1: able to receive care or services x y z um. 1334 01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:10,320 Speaker 1: And it sucks to have to put work on the 1335 01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:12,879 Speaker 1: back of folks that are already being oppressed by systems. 1336 01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:16,160 Speaker 1: It's absolute trash. And I fully recognize it's it's it's 1337 01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:20,120 Speaker 1: messed up. But um, when we're thinking, when we're thinking 1338 01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:22,719 Speaker 1: about what does harm reduction look like, I think that's 1339 01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:25,320 Speaker 1: one of those things that we have to keep in mind. Um. 1340 01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:29,400 Speaker 1: And harm reduction also looks like folks knowing generally what 1341 01:12:29,479 --> 01:12:32,879 Speaker 1: the law is and being able to advocate for themselves 1342 01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:35,960 Speaker 1: in those spaces. Yeah, I'll just add from my side 1343 01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:37,920 Speaker 1: from like kind of just you know, from from a 1344 01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:41,760 Speaker 1: cyber perspective, it's, you know, just in general ways like 1345 01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:44,040 Speaker 1: there's nothing that's gonna be bullet proof or a silver 1346 01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:46,800 Speaker 1: bullet in terms of always protecting your privacy, but like 1347 01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:50,120 Speaker 1: the quicker ways that you can kind of at least 1348 01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:53,599 Speaker 1: make yourself generally safers. Use applex signal for for chatting. 1349 01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:57,360 Speaker 1: UM also use like auto delete features. UM you know, 1350 01:12:57,439 --> 01:13:00,760 Speaker 1: don't don't keep like years worth of text messages and 1351 01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:06,120 Speaker 1: stuff like that. UM. Additionally, UM, you know, don't use 1352 01:13:06,439 --> 01:13:09,880 Speaker 1: biometrics because you don't have a Fifth Amendment right for 1353 01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:14,040 Speaker 1: yourself subcrimination for for biometrics right sos so long long. 1354 01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:17,640 Speaker 1: The reason why that is in the courts. Use a password, 1355 01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:20,000 Speaker 1: don't use a short pin. Use a password. I know 1356 01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:22,840 Speaker 1: it's annoying. I know it's like, you know, if a 1357 01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:26,200 Speaker 1: fingerprin in our face, like unlock is like much more convenient. 1358 01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:28,400 Speaker 1: But you know, if you are at high risk or 1359 01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:30,879 Speaker 1: you worry about this stuff and you're concerned about your privacy, 1360 01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:33,360 Speaker 1: like use those things because they can't compel you to 1361 01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:37,040 Speaker 1: do that generally. UM. You know. The other things is 1362 01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:41,880 Speaker 1: UM the UK app e u k I UM, which 1363 01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:45,200 Speaker 1: is a UM sexual health app that has a lot 1364 01:13:45,280 --> 01:13:51,120 Speaker 1: of information about UM, you know, reproductive issues. UM. It 1365 01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:54,040 Speaker 1: also is like a menstrual chracker, but it's all encrypted 1366 01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:58,320 Speaker 1: client side, they get no data UM and it has 1367 01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:01,000 Speaker 1: it prompts you for a password and pin to open 1368 01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:04,840 Speaker 1: it UM. And it also has UH resources for self 1369 01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:10,479 Speaker 1: managed abortion UM and and how to safely handle those, um, 1370 01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:14,160 Speaker 1: And yeah, you know, just generally, you know, anything you 1371 01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:16,400 Speaker 1: put out there on social media also like be careful 1372 01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:18,600 Speaker 1: like what you you put out there, like stay to 1373 01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:22,599 Speaker 1: end and end to end encryption, use VPNs if you can. 1374 01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:24,479 Speaker 1: You know that these are just kind of like general 1375 01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:26,800 Speaker 1: stuff like nothing is again ever gonna be full proof. 1376 01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:29,479 Speaker 1: But yeah, there are some small stuff you can take 1377 01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:33,880 Speaker 1: to at least increase some of your protections. And on 1378 01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:37,360 Speaker 1: my end, you know you have a right to remain silent, 1379 01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:41,160 Speaker 1: you should use it. Uh And thanks to the Supreme Court, 1380 01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:42,920 Speaker 1: you have to say I want to be silent. In 1381 01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:45,080 Speaker 1: order to invoke your right to be silent, you cannot 1382 01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:49,400 Speaker 1: just be silent. Um. So you I would advise people 1383 01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:51,479 Speaker 1: to say I want to be silent and I want 1384 01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:54,880 Speaker 1: a lawyer. Those are the magic words. I also want 1385 01:14:54,880 --> 01:15:01,640 Speaker 1: to hold that being can up shored by police officers 1386 01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:04,960 Speaker 1: is a violent experience and a scary experience, and sometimes 1387 01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:09,559 Speaker 1: asserting your rights can provoke more violence, and so people 1388 01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:11,400 Speaker 1: do what they need to do to stay safe in 1389 01:15:11,439 --> 01:15:15,880 Speaker 1: that moment um from all the law perspective, saying I 1390 01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:19,040 Speaker 1: would I want to be silent and I want a lawyer, 1391 01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:27,040 Speaker 1: um are the things that invoke all of your constitutional protections. Um, 1392 01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:30,800 Speaker 1: and the police may lie about whether or not you 1393 01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:34,439 Speaker 1: said that later, so you know, say it as many 1394 01:15:34,479 --> 01:15:35,960 Speaker 1: times as you need to. But those are really the 1395 01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:38,719 Speaker 1: only things you should say, which is a lot um 1396 01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:41,800 Speaker 1: easier said than done, but that that is the thing 1397 01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:45,439 Speaker 1: that folks should do if they do find themselves in 1398 01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:47,960 Speaker 1: the custody of law enforcement. And also if you're on 1399 01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:50,599 Speaker 1: the street, ask if you're free to go, and if 1400 01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:53,000 Speaker 1: you're free to go, please walk, do not run away. 1401 01:15:53,360 --> 01:16:00,719 Speaker 1: There's also a case about that God hate the cops. Well, 1402 01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:03,280 Speaker 1: thank you also much for joining us, UM this this 1403 01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:07,080 Speaker 1: has been really great, and yeah, don't talk to cops yep. 1404 01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:11,920 Speaker 1: Would you like to plug anything before we leave with 1405 01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:15,080 Speaker 1: the cook the cops? Yeah, I can just throw my 1406 01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:17,639 Speaker 1: personal side. You can follow me on also shows on 1407 01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:23,080 Speaker 1: Twitter and stuff at Square underscores like Portmanteau of Esquire 1408 01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:26,360 Speaker 1: and Queer s E s q U E R Underscore 1409 01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:29,519 Speaker 1: UM and also have a podcast called Queering the Law 1410 01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:33,080 Speaker 1: um or talk about a lot of these issues as well. UM, 1411 01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:38,000 Speaker 1: So if you want to give that a listen. UM, 1412 01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:41,920 Speaker 1: don't follow me on social media because all my stuff 1413 01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:45,280 Speaker 1: is closed, but I would recommend that folks follow at 1414 01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:49,479 Speaker 1: IF when how on all socials because we're always uh 1415 01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:52,640 Speaker 1: providing up to date information on what's actually going on 1416 01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:57,559 Speaker 1: with criminalization of self managed abortion and resources from you know, 1417 01:16:57,600 --> 01:17:00,519 Speaker 1: community partners that are on the ground, local that are 1418 01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:02,880 Speaker 1: doing the work. So if folks are looking to get connected, 1419 01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:04,920 Speaker 1: I would say reach out to IF one how and 1420 01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:09,439 Speaker 1: we can usually point you in the right direction. You 1421 01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:11,639 Speaker 1: could follow me on Twitter, but I don't really remember 1422 01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:15,160 Speaker 1: what my handle is. So what I would suggest that 1423 01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:18,479 Speaker 1: you do, uh pre trials, attention and bail litigation is 1424 01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:20,360 Speaker 1: really my heart. You got folks locked up and they 1425 01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:23,000 Speaker 1: haven't even been found guilty, not that anyone should be 1426 01:17:23,040 --> 01:17:25,519 Speaker 1: locked up, So donate to your local bail fund if 1427 01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:28,519 Speaker 1: you don't know who that is. There's a lot of organs, 1428 01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:32,479 Speaker 1: National Bailout, the Bail Project, there's a lot of places 1429 01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:36,160 Speaker 1: you can find that. But growing five, ten, fifteen dollars 1430 01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:39,320 Speaker 1: at your local bail fund, we'll get someone free because 1431 01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:42,479 Speaker 1: you can purchase your freedom here in America. So UM 1432 01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:50,760 Speaker 1: do that. M Yeah, thank you so much that this 1433 01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:53,439 Speaker 1: has been They can happen here. Uh, you can find 1434 01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:57,760 Speaker 1: us in places don't talk to cops and yeah, if 1435 01:17:57,760 --> 01:18:04,080 Speaker 1: there weren't any cops. You couldn't make things legal. It 1436 01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:06,360 Speaker 1: could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media 1437 01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:09,240 Speaker 1: or more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website 1438 01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:11,439 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 1439 01:18:11,479 --> 01:18:14,000 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 1440 01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:16,840 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could 1441 01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:19,840 Speaker 1: Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone media dot com 1442 01:18:19,880 --> 01:18:21,799 Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.