WEBVTT - The Future of Golf Course Restoration 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.400 In the United States, many of the greatest old golf 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:09.200 courses have already undergone what they've called restorations. That is, 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:13.160 they've worked with architects to bring back elements of their 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:17.360 original designs. In fact, many of these courses have gone 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:21.360 through this process multiple times over the past thirty years, 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:25.800 which begs the question, when can you actually consider a 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.200 golf course restored? Can you? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:28.479 Ever? 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:32.720 In any case, the restoration movement, which dates back to 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:37.120 the nineteen eighties, has seemingly reached a point of maturity, 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:40.440 and now I think we have to ask where does 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:44.480 it go next. In this episode, I'll explore a few 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:48.520 projects that I think represent interesting frontiers of the golf 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:52.720 course restoration and renovation industry. First, I'll sit down with 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:56.960 Jeff Stein to talk about his and Brian Ross's creative, 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:02.200 historically inspired redesign the Great Dunes course at Jekyl Island. 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:06.040 Then I'll speak with Clyde Johnson about his efforts to 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:11.280 bring back vintage elements of British links courses. I'm Garrett Morrison, 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:21.400 and this is Designing Golf. Jeff Stein, Welcome to the podcast. 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.559 Thanks a lot, gar I'm really glad to be talking 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:24.800 with you. 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.880 So today we're talking about the future of golf course restoration, 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:33.839 and I wanted to talk to you specifically, Jeff, about 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:37.640 a project that you recently completed with your partner Brian 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:41.240 Ross at Jekyl Island Golf Club off the coast of Georgia. 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:44.840 I'm not sure i'd call this project a restoration in 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:48.240 the strict sense of the word, but it certainly had 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:52.280 a historical motive and there are a number of intriguing 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:56.760 things about the project that might indicate where golf course 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:01.560 restoration quote unquote might go in the coming years. So 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:05.080 just to set the scene, where is Jeckyll Island and 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:06.720 what's the history of golf there? 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:12.519 Okay, So Jacky Island is on the southeastern coast of Georgia. 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:18.400 It's kind of midway between Jacksonville, Florida and Savannah, Georgia. 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.560 So from the airport in Jacksonville, it's an hour drive 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:24.320 right up ninety five, you make a right turn at 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:28.120 Brunswick and you head, you know, right through the marsh 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:29.480 and onto jeckl Island. 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:32.680 So we're talking about the sea islands here, basically the 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:34.480 Georgia Sea islands. 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:36.080 Well they call them the Golden Isles. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:37.960 The Golden Isles, that's right, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:40.400 And then from Savannah. You know, it's an hour and 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:43.600 a half south from Savannah. You know, Atlanta is probably 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:45.480 four hours away from if you want to come from 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:49.480 that direction. And the history of golf there is a 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.400 long history. They you know, really done laid a golf 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.000 course out there. Originally through I think it was the 0:02:56.080 --> 0:03:02.480 Riverside course. Donald Ross lay out a pretty would be 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.000 a failed routing of a golf course through there. It 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:07.080 just was too wet. He wasn't able to drain it 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:11.800 very well. You know, the members went through several iterations 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:16.080 kind of playing golf from the river through the Savannah. Later, 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:21.200 Carl Keffer, the Canadian Open and their winter time pro 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:25.760 laid out the original holes in the sand dunes, so 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:28.440 where you would travel from the Savannah out to the 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:32.640 sand dunes and back again. And then of course Walter 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:38.240 Travis came in and fully laid out a spectacular ocean 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:39.840 side links called the Great Dunes. 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:45.320 So the Great Dunes Course a Walter Travis design. We'll 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:49.920 talk more about Walter Travis in a moment. Originally eighteen holes, 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:54.040 as I understand it, How did this course evolve over time? 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:54.920 What happened to it? 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.280 Yeah, well, Travis came and laid out the course in 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:04.280 twenty six. Of course opened end of twenty seven, but 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:08.520 Travis never lived to see the course actually finished. But 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:13.480 the holes he laid out were you know, hard against 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.280 the ocean, I mean, nothing in between you the beach 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:20.280 and the golf and it was just one of these 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:25.320 spectacular link settings that's pretty rare to find in the 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:31.000 United States. And you know, Travis adapted the routing of 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:34.479 Keffer on the front nine and he re routed stuff, 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.880 but definitely used some of his green sites and the 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:45.200 back nine which we lost due to basically time erosion storms. 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:49.680 And then of course when the original owners, you know, 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.560 this group of very wealthy individuals who used to own 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.839 Jacko Island, they kind of gave up the club in 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.640 the island in the you know, post depression, and the 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.400 state took it over. And that's that is when we 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:07.799 really lost the back nine of the Great Dunes golf course, 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:10.880 and they decided to do a lot more economic development. 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.320 They put a beach road in later on at convention Center, 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:16.480 several hotels and and so on. 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:21.800 So basically you can't get the original back nine back 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:23.799 that has now been developed. 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:24.599 That ship has sailed. 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:29.719 Okay, you alluded to the ownership situation on the island. 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:33.120 It's a pretty unique situation, so tell me about that. 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.880 Yeah, I mean, oh, you mean currently or before? 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.520 Yeah, currently, Well, as I understand it, this the was 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:44.560 the Jekyl Island Authority. It's a state body, right, It's 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:48.520 a government body that owns it, but it's relatively independent 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:53.040 from the government. So yeah, the current situation, which I 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:54.960 think dates back a couple of decades, right. 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.839 Yeah, I mean I don't know when the authority was, 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.440 you know, given their license from the State of Georgia 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.240 to operate, but the state park was created sometime in 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:08.599 the in the forties or fifties around that time, and 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:12.680 the Jeklan Authority has, you know, complete control over all 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:16.320 the you know, the lease agreements on the island for 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.560 whether that be if you're a restaurant, a hotel. You 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:24.480 know that they actually operate the golf course, a conservation department, landscaping, 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:30.240 et cetera. And they just they oversee everything that goes 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.240 on in the state park. But there are actually a 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.320 for profit entity but given the right by the State 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:40.200 of Georgia. So this project really came to be from 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:43.160 a really massive commitment. I think I read the other 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:45.640 day it was like two hundred and eighty million dollar 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:49.719 renovation plan over several decades, and the and the golf 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.640 piece was really the last part of that puzzle in 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:56.320 this whole economic redevelopment of the island. 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.000 So I guess the reason they can do a project 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:04.560 this ambitious is that they are an entrepreneurial body. Essentially, 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.560 They're they're not they they need to make a They 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.040 need to make a profit, absolutely. 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:11.280 Need to make a profit. And and I think that 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:14.640 they they kind of they all pool the resources and 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:16.960 pull all the dollart tourist dollars from you know, there's 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:19.000 a ten dollars toll when you come on the island. 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:22.760 So you know, they unlike you know, a standalone golf course. 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:25.960 They do have maybe some other profit centers from tourism. 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:28.120 But of course we're hoping that the golf is going 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:30.960 to start to drive a lot of those tourists, uh, 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.840 that tourist activity and and we start filling the t 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:35.040 sheets at the Great Dunes. 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:38.520 It's really cool. It's a it's a fun model of 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:44.680 ownership that kind of combines the UH the entrepreneurial spirit 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:50.160 of an ambitious golf course with the support of of 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:53.000 government and and the and the and the you know, 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:56.840 I guess the mission to bring people out and give 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:59.080 them access to a great golf experience. 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.000 Yeah, and and I think that, you know, oftentimes municipal 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:07.320 golf isn't really that profitable or it's hard to be profitable. 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:10.920 So we're and I also want to mention there's a 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.080 you know, we have two other golf courses at the 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.200 Jackal Island Golf Club. There's Pine Lakes which is just 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:20.280 recently renovated, an Indian Mound which is more your budget 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:23.800 friendly option right now, shorter golf course built by Joe Lee. 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.040 And we're going to see what happens with that third 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:30.280 golf course, whether that gets redeveloped, maybe into a short 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:34.720 course or something along those lines. We're just going to 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:37.480 see how this whole plan comes together. 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:41.800 So just some history of the island itself. My understanding 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:45.600 is that pre Depression, Jackal Island was sort of a 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.400 happening place, right This was a place that that wealthy 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:53.560 people vacationed, and then it it just fell on hard 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:57.080 times during the depression and the war and that's when 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.360 the state stepped in and took it over. Is that 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:02.640 is that basically an accurate characterization? 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.440 That's that's fairly fairly accurate. I think there's a funny 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:09.120 anecdote that they, you know, these owners kind of walked 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:11.480 away with a pretty large tax bill and just said, okay, 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:12.480 you guys deal with it. 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:16.800 You take care of our debts here. Yeah, exactly, so. 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:19.000 They say, here's the land, we don't want to deal 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:23.240 with this anymore. And you know, there's a there's another 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.600 island just down the coast. I think it's Cumberland Island 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:29.719 maybe is owned by the Carnegie family, and that they 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.559 have a home like in a national wilderness or something. 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.600 So like this, this whole area, you know, in the 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.840 teens and twenties, was was very happening. You know, you 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:42.480 had a lot of commerce and and just yeah, vacationing 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:46.199 for like, yeah, the wealthy and influential folks. I mean, 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:49.000 I think they made the first transatlantic phone call from 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:54.760 Jackyal Island. They they formed the idea of the Federal 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:56.240 Reserve on Jecko Island. 0:09:56.559 --> 0:10:02.000 This wasn't you know, your average getaway wow, okay, yeah, 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:04.960 I mean the stories of these different islands off the 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.040 southeastern coast are all different. 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:10.920 That's that's the interesting thing about them. There's there's not 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:16.040 really a standard narrative of the history of all these islands. 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:19.040 People are maybe familiar with hilton Head Island, right, hilton 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:26.040 Head Island is currently a much more developed and you know, 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:30.640 I would say financially stable and thriving place than Jekyl 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:34.360 Island has been until recently. And so you have a 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.080 different situation at Jekyl, right. 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:38.760 Yeah, I mean, and even more even more close to 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.320 home at Jeckel. You have Saint Simon's Island where you 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.319 have this the you know this the Sea Island Resort, 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:48.319 Open Forest Frederica. You know, there's there's dozens of golf 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.480 courses right there, and that's just very much more developed, 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:55.160 uh you know land Jecko Island is a state park. 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.480 You know, we have we're playing golf in a state park. 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:02.200 And and that's really evident and part of the part 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.160 of what we like about visiting there having worked there, 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:09.280 is just the tranquility of it. The wildlife. There's deer 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:12.480 all over the place, osprey's flying over the golf course, 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:17.599 all types of fish, and you know, gators and whatnot. 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.439 So you really it's really a getaway and I think 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:22.920 that's that should be the attraction and the focus of 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.040 Jeckyll is the fact that it's not developed. You know, 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.520 we do have a convention center and that's you know, 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:30.960 like I said, that ship has sailed, but I think 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.600 that we've done a lot to conserve the space that 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:36.959 we have. And that was part of the thrust of 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:40.680 the Great Dunes project is we got the nine holes 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.160 from the Dick Wilson course, the only ender golf course 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:47.079 because we gave away the other nine holes for wetland conservation. 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:49.400 So the whole thing is wrapped up in you know, 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:50.600 a nice little package. 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:55.960 Okay, so that's good context. Now you enter the picture 0:11:56.320 --> 0:12:00.600 with Brian Ross. How did you become involved in the 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:04.439 in this Jackyll Island golf course project. 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.200 It was a public RFP. Brian brought the RFP to 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:09.719 me one day. 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:10.200 Uh. 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:14.920 I we were working together in Pennsylvania. I was doing 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:19.280 a design and build a type project where I really 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:21.880 was working as like architect and contractor. We had built 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:25.199 We'd built a very small crew and had shapers working 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.800 for us, and Brian was one of those shapers and 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:31.120 he said, Hey, what about this project. And I said, listen, 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:33.560 if you if you can put this RFP together, because 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:35.120 they're they're pretty onerous, you know, it's. 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.560 Like, yeah, yeah, a government RFP. It's not you know, 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:39.240 it's not just. 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.320 A presentation patch together. I don't know if it was 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:46.440 thirty forty pages or something. And I said, I'll co 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:49.800 sign it. You mail it, I'll co sign it. And uh, 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.400 that's how we got involved. You know, Brian had been 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:57.880 there before and knew the potential of it. I really 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.480 had no conception of it. He didn't even show me 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:03.400 any pictures. He just I trust Brian's you know, I 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:08.320 his his knowledge of the business. And the first day 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:10.960 that we got there, I have to say I was 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.880 a little bit like overwhelmed with the amount of work 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:17.400 that I saw was necessary. And I was like, oh man, 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.240 what did you get us into? How are we going 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:20.680 to do this? 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:23.480 What exactly did you see on that on that first 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:24.280 day on site? 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:31.960 So much overgrowth, an overwhelming amount of vegetation, vines. Not 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:36.920 only that, like it's a sensitive you know, conservation district, 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.920 like you're there are restrictions on removing trees. 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:41.120 You know. 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:44.640 We we had luckily since we were literally working for 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:49.440 the j I A. The you know, the the methods, 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:52.360 and like the mitigation was easy to work with if 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.040 we had to take you know, a large tree branch 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:58.920 out that was hanging over a green site. But that 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.000 happened couple of times where we moved a green back 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.480 by about forty yards, but we had this huge, you know, 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:08.000 oak branch hanging over the green and you know, I 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:10.080 kind of wanted to keep it because I thought it 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:11.800 kind of reminded me a little bit of like the 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.760 Harbor Town stuff. But in the in the end, you know, 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:18.000 we had to lop lop off a few limbs here 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:18.640 and there. 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:23.280 And you were working for the authority that that would 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:25.440 decide whether you could do this, so that it was 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:27.040 fairlylined the process. 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:31.080 But we we mitigated, we mitigated whatever we cleared, and 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:34.600 we honestly we didn't We didn't take out any very 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:38.480 large trees. It was just all the underbrush and palmettos 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:42.240 and all the thick stuff underneath the understory needed to 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.680 be just mulched up, chewed out, and and taken away. 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.240 We buried a bunch of it to bring up clean 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:52.840 sand so to kind of like again minimize our you know, 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.360 our our footprint in terms of hauling stuff off off island, 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:58.720 we did as much of that as possible to just 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:01.680 keep everything like in the envelope. 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:07.200 So how much of the Walter Travis design remained in 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:13.080 the ground to restore through light touch methods? Like, to 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:16.400 what extent could you get back the Walter Travis design 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:20.760 by clearing out some vegetation, widening fairways, pushing out mowing 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:24.680 lines on greens In other words, was there much in 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:27.080 the ground that that you could work with? 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:30.479 I would say there were three green sites that required 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:33.880 a relatively light touch, and the rest of it what 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:37.800 really had to be adapted for modern play, just kind 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.440 of making stuff a little bit bigger, like amplifying the 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:45.200 green site. Just you know, we're expecting you know, twenty 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:49.480 thirty thousand rounds maybe a year, where there were probably 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:53.720 playing a few hundred or a few thousand when the 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:58.560 course was created. So yeah, we're just trying. Definitely some 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:03.640 green sites were were worth preserving and working off of. 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:07.400 And then the veget clearing vegetation on the dunes. I 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:11.000 mean that that really elevates the architecture as well, because 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:15.080 again more overhanging trees you couldn't see certain sight lines, 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:20.320 lines of charm, stuff like that. And and of course 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:26.240 the routing was intact. I mean, we accept our our 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:30.240 ninth t was the first hole of the Great Dunes. 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:35.080 So the way that we you know, looped in the 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.560 Great Duns nine, it happens really in the middle of 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.120 our round of golf. We play holes one, two, and 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:44.080 three on the old Oleander, and then four through twelve 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.800 is the Great Dunes. And and it's a really happy 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.160 accident that it works out that way because it allowed 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.560 it created this seamless transition and an out and in 0:16:55.720 --> 0:17:01.560 routing as well, that really doesn't require more than you know, 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:05.200 fifty to seventy five yards walk between where the golf 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.520 courses were linked. 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:10.840 Okay, so you had two different courses. You had the 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:16.200 Oleander eighteen designed by Dick Wilson, and you basically borrowed 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.280 a portion of that course and connected it to the 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:24.639 Great Dunes nine to create a new eighteen whole course. 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.840 So presumably you had very different approaches for these two 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.840 different sections of the course. You probably had to be 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:37.480 way more aggressive on the Oleander portion of the course 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.120 than you were on the Great Dunes portion of the course. 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:45.200 Where maybe you were doing some more classic restoration work. 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:51.399 So how were your methods different on these different parts 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:51.920 of the site. 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:55.240 Sure, well, the approach was the same because we're trying 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:58.560 to create you know, a classic, a classic you know, 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:02.080 appearing Golden age golf course. The method was on the 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:06.240 odlander was okay, drop the blade and just smash all 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.560 this dirt. There's a lot of dirt around those green sites, 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:12.600 so you know, either we're just pushing it out as 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.080 far as we can, trying to tie it out, you know, 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:19.280 and just blend it into the kind of restore the landscape. 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:22.960 That's like job number one, and then find a green 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.760 site that that makes sense for the routing and the 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:29.040 you know, the timing of you know, where you're gonna 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:32.679 you're gonna see these particular greens. And that's what that 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.600 was like the biggest the biggest challenges maybe just taking 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:38.560 away and just trucking off a bunch of dirt and 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.840 putting it somewhere where you needed it, you know, on 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.439 the first green, for example, a ton of dirt around 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.520 the green site pushed it out, but also we also 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.480 created a kind of push up green there on number 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.560 one to kind of kind of you know, punch you 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:55.320 in the face a little bit. Let you know you're 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:57.960 on a Walter Travis golf course. And and it also 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.760 broke up some of the site line so that you 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:05.160 could have a really focused target. And just the way 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:09.520 we cleared cleared the trees behind number one, you know, 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:12.600 it was just this long gun sight, you know, probably 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.960 twelve hundred yards long from the first tee or the 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:18.520 first fairway all the way to too Green, and we 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:20.639 decided to just break that up a little bit so 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.160 that you could you could just get a really nice 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:23.920 target to hit at. 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:28.359 So this might be a somewhat naive question, but was 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:33.280 there ever any thought of restoring Dick Wilson's work on 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:38.520 the non Great Dunes nine And if not, why not? 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:43.920 I think it was a very fleeting thought if anyone 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:48.760 had it. I think the work of Travis was just 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:54.199 valued more highly above that of Wilson's. Not to say 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:57.080 people really adored the only under golf course. 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:00.440 Yeah, I mean, Wilson was a good architect, There's no 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.800 doubt about that. Maybe this wasn't the best example of 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.679 his work. Well, but where he did good work, he 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:07.639 did really good work. 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.960 Yeah, except half his golf course was like perpetually underwater, 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.360 so like it just was it just never was created 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.280 in a way that was would be sustainable. Whether that's 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:20.320 because the water table has risen, we're getting more rainfall, 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:25.119 I don't know exactly, but decision was really made for us. 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.400 We're gonna, you know, chop off half of the only 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:30.920 inter course because we can't even get golf carts out there. 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:34.960 And hey, we really like and this came from you 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:38.159 know that we had a sense of it during the 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:44.119 RFP process that restoration was a priority for Jecko Island, 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:46.840 like going back as far as we could go to 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:50.720 something that was usable and really like the best iteration 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:53.600 of the golf on Jecko Island is from the savannah 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:55.879 to the dunes. And we didn't have the choice to 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:59.960 go dunes dunes, but you know, if we had a choice, 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.600 hey let's let's marry these two pieces of land which 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:07.240 were really actually very similar, Like the the thirteenth and 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:12.280 fourteenth holes on the Oleander pretty much are joined up 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:17.320 with this you know sandy plane that that rides in 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:19.320 the in the the back of the sand dunes of 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:22.240 the primary sand dune. So it was always I think 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:24.640 it was always meant to be this way when when 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:29.760 they built the Oleander golf course, the front nine was 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:33.640 actually a part of the great They combined the two 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:36.240 back in the sixties when they were building the Oleander. 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:40.159 When they completed both nines, Oleander went to it's you know, 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:43.479 its routing. So I find it I find it really 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:46.520 interesting that again, like it seems like it was meant 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:48.560 to be to join these two nines together. 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:53.320 How do you go about restoring a golf course that 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:57.800 never existed? Maybe that's maybe that's an issue for philosophers, 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:00.800 but I like, yeah, how do you what's your what's 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:01.600 your approach there? 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:04.560 Right, that's the that's the semantical argument, and say hey, 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:08.919 is this a restoration or not? And and so you 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:13.640 go about that by really diving deep into the historical photography. 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:18.359 You look at the aerials and you see, hey, what 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:22.480 can we do what was actually built and how can 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:26.720 we maybe place that on what we're doing here on 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:30.800 those Oleander holes. And Brian came up with a great idea. 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:33.520 Picked he picked a great green site. It's kind of 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:38.840 a a T shaped green with a saddle, you know, 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:41.320 two high dunes and you know saddle in between. And 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:44.639 so the green sits down low in between these in 0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:48.359 between these mounds, and Brian found a great site on 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:53.240 our thirteenth Green to recreate the shapes and strategy of 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:55.560 of what we believe to be the fourteenth Pole on 0:22:55.600 --> 0:23:00.320 the Great Dunes. So that's a you know, the best 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:03.960 example of how we went about restoring something that actually 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:07.080 used to exist. But you know, kind of it's kind 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:10.200 of like the Lido, right, you know, in a certain way. 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:14.880 You know, they it definitely didn't ever exist in Wisconsin, right, 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.520 So I think it's it fits in a similar category 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:22.600 with Lido, although we didn't use like the you know, 0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:27.399 the lighter like they did, and you know the GPS technology. 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:34.320 Ours is really handbuilt and using our judgment, intuition and 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:38.840 and you know, just trying to find fun features that 0:23:38.920 --> 0:23:42.280 we think Walter Travis would have built if he had 0:23:42.320 --> 0:23:45.040 that had those pieces of ground to work with. 0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:50.639 So you were pulling inspiration for lost from lost aspects 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:54.520 of the course. So that's that's one possible source that 0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:57.440 you can use. I assume you also looked at other 0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:00.800 Walter Travis courses to get ideas from there. 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:04.280 Oh, without a doubt. Yeah, we uh, we took our 0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:07.600 executive our deputy executive director, Noel Jensen. We took him 0:24:07.600 --> 0:24:11.080 on a field trip to New Jersey. So we brought good, good, 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:15.600 good old uh uh you know, buy you boys from Louisiana. 0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:18.560 We brought him up to New Jersey and we took Yeah, 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:20.760 he had a blast, and we took him to Hollywood. 0:24:20.760 --> 0:24:23.480 We went to North Jersey and we went to Troy. 0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:27.199 Uh I. I have been you know, an intimate knowledge 0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:31.520 with Garden City Golf Club, Cape Arundle, and those were 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:34.800 like a really good uh subset for us to like 0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:37.919 pull ideas from and and really look at the greens 0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:42.359 and see like what did Travis do here? And so 0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:45.520 going back to an earlier question like what was worth restoring? 0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:47.199 Was there anything that we could just do like a 0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:51.800 light touch on And the the ninth green of the 0:24:51.840 --> 0:24:55.160 Great Dunes, which is our eighth green, it had this 0:24:55.160 --> 0:24:57.800 this deep swale that ran through the middle of the 0:24:57.800 --> 0:25:00.320 green on a little bit of a diagonal. And that's 0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:02.520 something that we all picked up on in our in 0:25:02.560 --> 0:25:06.399 our field trip, was the way that Travis used these 0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:09.040 these swales through the middle of his green. He would 0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:13.480 rotate them different angles and create different playing strategies. And 0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:16.960 and that was far and away the most like intact 0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:21.400 feature that we found that was recognizably Travis uh out 0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:24.639 there in the Great Dunes. So you know, that's a 0:25:24.640 --> 0:25:27.800 great way to uh you know again like build something 0:25:27.840 --> 0:25:29.879 that was never there, but you know, to kind of 0:25:29.920 --> 0:25:33.320 transport yourself and say what would you know, what would 0:25:33.320 --> 0:25:33.760 Walter do? 0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:36.800 North Jersey is incredible. 0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:39.960 Yeah, and you know, Brian Schneider has done a ton 0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:42.200 of great work there and and it's hard to tell 0:25:42.280 --> 0:25:46.120 now like what Brian's done and what Walter Travis has done. 0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:48.520 So exactly right. Yeah, that's why it's such a relevant 0:25:48.520 --> 0:25:54.000 comparison because Brian Schneider has gone out there and created 0:25:54.040 --> 0:25:59.120 greens using his own imagination that seemed like Walter Travis 0:25:59.119 --> 0:26:03.040 greens but are not actually restored Walter Travis green. 0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:05.040 I couldn't agree more. We have a we have a 0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:08.159 ton of respect for Brian's work, his talent, and like 0:26:08.640 --> 0:26:10.879 clearly like the clubs that he's been working with in 0:26:10.920 --> 0:26:15.119 the Travis space, there's a huge inspiration for us. His 0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:21.240 eighteenth Green at North Jersey was was definitely something that 0:26:21.359 --> 0:26:23.960 we tried to We took a look at that and said, well, 0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:26.480 that's that's kind of a cool idea. That's you know, 0:26:26.520 --> 0:26:28.800 it's it's kind of like a mini beer. It's greed 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:33.760 we built. We built one on the fourteenth green of 0:26:33.880 --> 0:26:38.240 our course that has like it's a little bit of 0:26:38.920 --> 0:26:41.480 a beer its style. It's a little bit of the 0:26:41.520 --> 0:26:44.359 sixteenth at North Barrick, you know the two plateaus with 0:26:44.440 --> 0:26:49.800 the swale through the middle, and we incorporated a dune 0:26:49.840 --> 0:26:52.840 that like kind of feeds into the green to to 0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:56.879 create this like you know, this two headed you know 0:26:57.040 --> 0:26:59.359 terminus for the dune and which makes for just an 0:26:59.400 --> 0:27:01.880 awesome put surface. It's one of my favorites. 0:27:03.160 --> 0:27:06.040 This is a little bit like dancing about architecture. But 0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:12.040 what for you are the characteristics of a Walter Travis green. 0:27:12.240 --> 0:27:17.439 How would you describe his style of green construction? Because it, 0:27:17.600 --> 0:27:19.639 I mean it is super distinctive. 0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:27.760 Yes, he often has steep transitions between plateaus. Often there's 0:27:29.160 --> 0:27:32.920 knuckles or mounds surrounding the edges of the greens, and 0:27:32.960 --> 0:27:37.439 irregular patterns you could have like these swales that we 0:27:37.520 --> 0:27:41.639 talked about, and I believe you know it's like you 0:27:41.800 --> 0:27:44.359 talk I've heard say before, like if you want to 0:27:44.359 --> 0:27:47.359 build a cool green, like throw some pebbles around and 0:27:48.240 --> 0:27:50.040 you know, like those where your mounds will be, and 0:27:50.080 --> 0:27:51.959 then you know figure out where the water is going 0:27:52.000 --> 0:27:55.760 to go. And it's almost as if he's constantly you know, 0:27:55.920 --> 0:28:00.320 moving mounds in asymmetrical ways around the green and then 0:28:00.359 --> 0:28:03.320 throwing a swale in, you know, doing a maiden style 0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:07.159 green two shoulders and at Troy has an awesome I 0:28:07.160 --> 0:28:09.600 think it's the sixteenth green at Troy there's like two 0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:12.320 shoulders left and right and the green falls away from 0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:15.800 you with the swale right down the center. Troy blew 0:28:15.840 --> 0:28:18.760 me away because I felt like that was the place 0:28:18.800 --> 0:28:23.119 where we saw his work the most untouched. To my knowledge, 0:28:23.119 --> 0:28:25.359 I don't know if the greens were really messed with 0:28:25.440 --> 0:28:29.600 at all. And again, like I see in Brian's work 0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:32.320 some of the ways that Troy has influenced him, like 0:28:32.359 --> 0:28:35.320 the eighteenth at Old Barnwell being like that dead flat 0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:37.800 you know, top of the plateau, like nothing fancy, just 0:28:37.840 --> 0:28:40.920 like this is what it is the eighteenth that Troy 0:28:41.000 --> 0:28:45.440 is like that, you know, So it's you know, it's 0:28:45.480 --> 0:28:47.360 good to study. It's good to study. The Masters. 0:28:48.640 --> 0:28:51.560 Yes, Country Club of Troy is so special because it 0:28:51.640 --> 0:28:56.560 really has been preserved as opposed to renovated or restored. 0:28:57.160 --> 0:28:59.840 And that's partly because they've been working with Bruce Hepner, 0:29:00.240 --> 0:29:03.360 who is not somebody who likes to go in and 0:29:03.520 --> 0:29:06.960 reconstruct he is he is somebody who likes to use 0:29:07.600 --> 0:29:11.040 a very light touch. And as a result, you have 0:29:11.120 --> 0:29:14.800 some very special feeling greens at at Country Club of 0:29:14.840 --> 0:29:19.120 Troy that then do you can tell their original because 0:29:19.480 --> 0:29:23.800 because you just wouldn't probably build greens like that anymore 0:29:23.920 --> 0:29:27.360 in a modern context. And so yeah, that Country Club 0:29:27.400 --> 0:29:31.040 of Troy just an incredible place to study what Walter 0:29:31.120 --> 0:29:33.560 Travis might have actually done in Cape Arrundle as well. 0:29:34.000 --> 0:29:35.920 Yeah, and I think the ten and Bruce worked at 0:29:35.960 --> 0:29:38.560 Cape Rundle for a long time. He's worked at Skylar 0:29:38.600 --> 0:29:41.560 Meadows as a course in the Capital region in New York. 0:29:42.080 --> 0:29:48.080 And I think the tendency for restoring architects, you know, 0:29:48.120 --> 0:29:51.720 myself included would be again is to like expand things, 0:29:52.120 --> 0:29:55.160 get pinning locations bigger. And I think that's a function 0:29:55.240 --> 0:29:59.240 of green speed. And you know this, you know usability 0:29:59.280 --> 0:30:02.080 of the golf course, you know, getting more cup locations, 0:30:02.240 --> 0:30:05.600 spreading out where like all necessary things for the modern game. 0:30:06.160 --> 0:30:10.320 But you know kind of problems born by green speed. 0:30:11.000 --> 0:30:15.080 And so I think when you go see the greens 0:30:15.080 --> 0:30:18.400 at Great Dunes, we're not anticipating the greens that are 0:30:18.440 --> 0:30:21.520 going to be all that fast. So we were able 0:30:21.520 --> 0:30:25.520 to build some smaller greens, nothing crazy small, like we didn't. 0:30:25.720 --> 0:30:28.520 Our smallest green is like forty eight hundred square feet 0:30:28.640 --> 0:30:31.400 to Part three or fifth hole. But what we had 0:30:31.440 --> 0:30:34.800 to work with there before, I mean, Garrett, I mean 0:30:34.920 --> 0:30:37.800 the Moon's surface couldn't have been more than nine hundred 0:30:37.800 --> 0:30:41.200 square feet. And even if we like went out to 0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:44.160 like the fhillpad, it was going to be you know, 0:30:44.640 --> 0:30:48.200 twenty eight hundred square feet of actual green like our 0:30:48.200 --> 0:30:50.760 client would never We just couldn't build a green that 0:30:50.800 --> 0:30:55.000 small for a public resort. So it's it's very site specific, 0:30:55.080 --> 0:30:57.640 like what you do. And but I don't think we 0:30:57.640 --> 0:31:00.200 we have a variety of green sizes out there, and 0:31:00.600 --> 0:31:03.720 the stuff that we amplified, like I said, the few 0:31:03.760 --> 0:31:07.479 greens that we thought were worth preserving, we we were 0:31:07.640 --> 0:31:10.240 very cognitiant of that of just like, hey, let's let's 0:31:10.320 --> 0:31:12.920 keep this under control here. No need to make everything 0:31:13.280 --> 0:31:14.719 ninety five hundred square feet. 0:31:15.640 --> 0:31:17.720 So now that you've kind of done this deep dive 0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:22.880 into Walter Travis, like tried to become inhabit Walter Travis, 0:31:23.120 --> 0:31:25.560 you know, like get get his get as close to 0:31:25.640 --> 0:31:30.240 him as possible methodical. What excites you about about his 0:31:30.400 --> 0:31:34.560 architectural style as compared to his his contemporaries. 0:31:36.240 --> 0:31:38.800 I mean, he's just so well known for the intricacies 0:31:38.840 --> 0:31:39.719 of his greens. 0:31:40.480 --> 0:31:40.880 Uh. 0:31:41.000 --> 0:31:43.760 You know, I get really excited thinking about East Potomac Links. 0:31:44.040 --> 0:31:47.520 You know, the reversible course, and I've seen the green 0:31:47.600 --> 0:31:50.320 plans for that. Mike mccarton from National Links Trust showed 0:31:50.360 --> 0:31:54.640 me the greens plans for that, and so yes, his 0:31:55.280 --> 0:31:59.040 the way that the golf course works, especially so from 0:31:59.080 --> 0:32:03.239 the green back. Uh. In terms of Travis's style. And 0:32:03.280 --> 0:32:06.280 then yeah, thinking golf is you know Travis that was 0:32:06.320 --> 0:32:09.960 his the term that he coined and and about you know, 0:32:11.120 --> 0:32:15.160 uh strategy and you know the shot values and penalty 0:32:15.360 --> 0:32:18.960 and and you know, I think he wasn't afraid to 0:32:19.480 --> 0:32:21.880 make you take some take your medicine. If you hit 0:32:21.920 --> 0:32:24.480 it in a bunker, you know, hit it behind a 0:32:24.560 --> 0:32:28.560 chocolate drop. You know, the game was not meant to be. 0:32:28.640 --> 0:32:30.960 I don't think he was a very I think he 0:32:31.000 --> 0:32:34.000 was a little of a gruff guy, and I think 0:32:34.040 --> 0:32:38.240 that is reflected maybe in his architectural style certainly, like 0:32:38.280 --> 0:32:40.520 if you look what if you go to Garden City 0:32:40.560 --> 0:32:44.240 golf Club, like what he did to Emmett's golf course. 0:32:44.360 --> 0:32:46.840 You know, he really really tough in that that he's 0:32:46.840 --> 0:32:50.280 stiff in that golf course up from you know, Fairway 0:32:50.320 --> 0:32:52.200 bunkering to the to the greens themselves. 0:32:52.960 --> 0:32:55.200 Just the fact that his nickname was the old Man, 0:32:56.120 --> 0:32:58.720 and I think he got that nickname when he wasn't 0:32:58.760 --> 0:33:01.840 really that old, That's right. I think that tells you. 0:33:02.160 --> 0:33:04.840 That tells you a little bit about what his persona 0:33:04.920 --> 0:33:05.440 might have been. 0:33:06.080 --> 0:33:08.520 A cranky, scratch golfer. 0:33:08.960 --> 0:33:11.959 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when I look at Travis's 0:33:12.040 --> 0:33:15.320 architecture and think about how it can be applied to 0:33:15.360 --> 0:33:22.560 a modern context, it's exciting to me because he didn't 0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:25.880 do wall to wall reshaping, and not many architects of 0:33:26.720 --> 0:33:29.640 his time did. Obviously, you know, Donald Ross maybe did 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:34.320 that a little bit. SETH. Rayner got close on some projects. 0:33:34.360 --> 0:33:37.880 Certainly the Lido was was just created from whole cloth. 0:33:38.600 --> 0:33:43.719 But Walter Travis's courses really leave most of the natural 0:33:43.840 --> 0:33:49.120 terrain completely intact, and from tee to green, especially there's 0:33:49.200 --> 0:33:53.239 just not that much alteration of the natural landscape. There 0:33:53.320 --> 0:33:55.560 might be some chocolate drops, but you can there's a 0:33:55.680 --> 0:34:00.680 kind of transparency about where the manufacturing happened. You can see, Okay, 0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:03.680 that chocolate drop was manufactured, but the rest of it 0:34:03.760 --> 0:34:06.920 is completely lay of the land. Okay, the green is 0:34:07.080 --> 0:34:13.320 highly manufactured, obviously manufactured, but everything around it is natural. 0:34:13.920 --> 0:34:16.400 And for me, that's that's almost the best of both worlds, 0:34:16.880 --> 0:34:19.879 where you get the natural terrain, but you also get 0:34:19.920 --> 0:34:24.719 some really interesting architecture and not everything is blended in, 0:34:25.160 --> 0:34:29.600 so you can actually see where some of the work happened. 0:34:30.200 --> 0:34:32.800 And for me, that's a that's a compelling combination. 0:34:33.280 --> 0:34:35.279 Yeah, And I think there's another layer to that in 0:34:35.320 --> 0:34:39.520 that Travis edited a lot of people's work and added 0:34:39.560 --> 0:34:43.560 on to others golf courses. Wayne Styles did a bunch 0:34:43.600 --> 0:34:46.040 of this in New England where he took nine holes 0:34:46.080 --> 0:34:49.879 and added another nine in and you know, didn't necessarily 0:34:49.960 --> 0:34:53.120 move a lot of earth other than creating the green sites, 0:34:54.360 --> 0:34:56.560 you know, digging some bunkers and things of that nature. 0:34:56.640 --> 0:34:59.160 So I think it is very site specific, like at 0:34:59.200 --> 0:35:01.480 North Jersey that you know, they probably had to blast 0:35:01.520 --> 0:35:04.160 a lot of rock or you know, and and it's 0:35:04.200 --> 0:35:07.040 a pretty severe sight as well, so they would have 0:35:07.080 --> 0:35:10.799 had to, like, you know, do some significant fills. But 0:35:10.880 --> 0:35:14.879 the way that he blended it in h is very 0:35:15.000 --> 0:35:19.200 much in the same way that uh Travis's contemporaries did. 0:35:19.520 --> 0:35:24.680 And and the thread here for me is between McDonald, Rayner, Travis, 0:35:24.719 --> 0:35:27.760 and Emmett. I think they were all so closely related 0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:30.799 in the time that they were creating golf courses, and 0:35:31.800 --> 0:35:34.840 you can just see how they borrowed ideas and the 0:35:34.880 --> 0:35:38.360 style and methods of construction from one another. And you 0:35:38.360 --> 0:35:42.000 could almost confuse an Emmett and a Travis sometimes or 0:35:42.040 --> 0:35:46.680 like a Rainer and an Emmett. Uh very you know, 0:35:46.760 --> 0:35:48.880 it's it's it's not too far fetched. 0:35:49.320 --> 0:35:51.640 And they were all buddies, right, so it kind of 0:35:51.680 --> 0:35:54.719 makes sense they were. They were all sharing ideas with 0:35:54.760 --> 0:35:58.160 each other and and maybe even consciously emulating each other 0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:02.080 and competing with each other about Yeah. All right, so 0:36:03.280 --> 0:36:06.560 the Great Dunes Project, I want to get into some 0:36:06.640 --> 0:36:11.280 macro questions about it. Okay, would you call it a restoration? 0:36:11.800 --> 0:36:13.400 Do you have a do you have a term for 0:36:13.480 --> 0:36:14.160 what you did here? 0:36:15.840 --> 0:36:18.319 I think at first we approached it like, hey, we're 0:36:18.360 --> 0:36:21.200 going to restore this golf course. And then the more 0:36:21.280 --> 0:36:23.120 that we got into it was it was just clear, 0:36:23.239 --> 0:36:27.880 like how much new that we were building out there. 0:36:29.200 --> 0:36:31.360 You know. Certain we didn't mess with the routing, We 0:36:31.360 --> 0:36:35.879 didn't mess with Travis's routing, but there were just there 0:36:36.000 --> 0:36:40.200 wasn't anything. There wasn't too much recognizable. Like if we 0:36:40.320 --> 0:36:43.080 just like dusted it off, stripped the side, and like 0:36:43.160 --> 0:36:45.279 put it back, I think people would think that we 0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:48.640 were crazy and they would be very very much disappointed. 0:36:49.000 --> 0:36:53.040 You know, people were being promised a Walter Travis restoration, right, 0:36:53.560 --> 0:36:57.360 but most of that cool stuff had been obliterated either 0:36:57.600 --> 0:37:00.799 in the hurricanes and storms on the Back nine, or 0:37:00.880 --> 0:37:05.280 it had been obliterated by you know, saying irrigation renovation 0:37:05.400 --> 0:37:09.440 in the nineteen seventies or whatever. Right, because we did find, 0:37:11.040 --> 0:37:13.080 you know, these kind of platforms of dirt in the 0:37:13.120 --> 0:37:14.960 center of these film pads. They were like ten to 0:37:15.040 --> 0:37:18.279 twelve inches, like our famous the famous May West hole, 0:37:18.680 --> 0:37:24.399 the our fourth hole. Like the green feels like it's 0:37:24.440 --> 0:37:26.759 sitting in a hollow in a punch bowl behind these 0:37:26.760 --> 0:37:29.239 two dunes. But then there's like this little pyramid on 0:37:29.800 --> 0:37:31.160 in the middle of the green, and we're like, this 0:37:31.239 --> 0:37:34.880 doesn't make any sense, you know, you know, this is 0:37:34.920 --> 0:37:39.960 not what the green shape would be. So we really, 0:37:40.360 --> 0:37:42.680 in all honesty, we restored as much as we could. 0:37:42.719 --> 0:37:46.840 We had historical photographs of that particular green site. We 0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:49.080 have some of the stuff on the back nine, but 0:37:49.120 --> 0:37:51.279 there's there's more than half of this golf course that 0:37:51.719 --> 0:37:55.520 is you know, newly created from you know, putting ourselves 0:37:55.560 --> 0:37:57.560 in walter shoes. Between Brian and I. 0:37:57.880 --> 0:38:01.319 You know, this is an interesting to me because in 0:38:01.400 --> 0:38:05.960 previous conversations I've heard you express the view that there 0:38:06.040 --> 0:38:10.640 might not really be such a thing as pure restoration. 0:38:11.280 --> 0:38:11.560 M H. 0:38:12.840 --> 0:38:15.279 Could you explain that that position to me and how 0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:18.319 it might have led to your approach to this to 0:38:18.360 --> 0:38:18.960 this project. 0:38:19.239 --> 0:38:24.160 Well, yeah, in the most doctrinal sense, like purely restoring something, 0:38:24.600 --> 0:38:26.760 you would have to have one hell of a record 0:38:27.200 --> 0:38:31.400 or it would take you an ungodly amount of time 0:38:32.080 --> 0:38:37.440 to like archaeologically peel back and figure it out. And 0:38:37.920 --> 0:38:40.200 you know, we tried to do that certainly. On that 0:38:40.320 --> 0:38:43.000 may West Green. We went down all the way to 0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:46.160 the to the native sand layer and to see how 0:38:46.280 --> 0:38:49.399 deep was the soil layer that was built up upon 0:38:49.480 --> 0:38:52.120 that and by far and away. That green was filled 0:38:52.200 --> 0:38:55.239 more than any of the other greens. It was a 0:38:55.360 --> 0:38:57.680 very unique green site. Some of the other greens we 0:38:57.719 --> 0:39:01.200 found a little bit of consistency, maybe there was you know, 0:39:01.280 --> 0:39:04.319 eight to ten inches of soil, but it was just 0:39:04.360 --> 0:39:07.439 so inconsistent what we were finding in the ground. We're 0:39:07.480 --> 0:39:10.520 just like, well, how can we possibly just restore? There 0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:13.320 was no there was no like consistent way or method 0:39:13.320 --> 0:39:17.160 that we could find to get to the actual like 0:39:17.480 --> 0:39:21.440 elevation that we thought it would be. So what is 0:39:21.800 --> 0:39:25.479 what is restoration? I'd have to think a minute of 0:39:26.520 --> 0:39:30.480 you know, how you could which golf courses have actually 0:39:30.520 --> 0:39:34.080 been restored. You know, I'm working with Hooper Golf Course 0:39:34.160 --> 0:39:37.040 right now, and this is a bit of a hot topic. 0:39:37.400 --> 0:39:41.759 Like the first green at at Hooper is you know, 0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:46.480 the members would love to have backpin positions there, but 0:39:47.080 --> 0:39:50.520 and the green, to anyone's knowledge, has never been altered. 0:39:50.960 --> 0:39:54.080 But the question is did they ever have back positions 0:39:54.480 --> 0:39:57.880 on a green that was sloping you know six to 0:39:57.920 --> 0:40:00.000 eight percent sometimes ten percent in place? 0:40:00.239 --> 0:40:04.120 Six Oh yeah, the whole that's not that's not pinnable, 0:40:04.320 --> 0:40:06.239 Just just to clarify to people. 0:40:06.280 --> 0:40:09.480 But it may have been pinnable when the greens were 0:40:09.680 --> 0:40:10.640 running out of five. 0:40:11.239 --> 0:40:13.680 That's the thing is that like, Okay, at what point 0:40:14.480 --> 0:40:18.040 can it really ever be a restoration if green speeds 0:40:18.520 --> 0:40:19.279 are what they are? 0:40:20.239 --> 0:40:23.520 Right? So you get you getting into this massively gray 0:40:23.640 --> 0:40:28.240 area of are we restoring the intention and the playability 0:40:28.320 --> 0:40:30.920 of the original hole? Are we you know, are we 0:40:31.000 --> 0:40:33.440 going to just turn back the clock and say no, 0:40:33.560 --> 0:40:36.360 we want to play Victorian style golf. You know, we 0:40:36.440 --> 0:40:39.480 think that's cool. We're going to hickorys and cop mounds, 0:40:40.280 --> 0:40:43.040 you know, And I don't believe that's where we're going, 0:40:43.520 --> 0:40:47.120 you know, in the next decade or more in the 0:40:47.120 --> 0:40:53.759 golf restoration game. I think more people we clearly have 0:40:54.400 --> 0:40:58.840 you know, been changing classic designs. Like you know, I 0:40:58.880 --> 0:41:03.080 work at the you know, the lower course at Balterstral 0:41:03.120 --> 0:41:07.920 with Gil, and and I don't Gil in all honesty, 0:41:08.120 --> 0:41:12.160 Gil did not change many of those greens at all. 0:41:12.200 --> 0:41:14.959 But there were certain instances where we we literally had 0:41:15.000 --> 0:41:17.560 to change stuff. They were like clo there were uh, 0:41:18.040 --> 0:41:20.920 you know, closed contours in greens where water was settling, 0:41:22.320 --> 0:41:26.360 and in one instance Gil actually left that contour. He said, no, 0:41:26.440 --> 0:41:29.080 we're not touching it. This thing is perfect. We're not, 0:41:29.239 --> 0:41:32.120 you know. And then another instance where we decided to 0:41:32.480 --> 0:41:34.759 you know, cut you know, cut three four inches out 0:41:34.800 --> 0:41:36.600 of the back of the green to let water flow 0:41:37.120 --> 0:41:40.359 flow out. So, you know, of all my people, I've 0:41:40.360 --> 0:41:42.240 worked with guys who are the best in the business. 0:41:42.320 --> 0:41:44.839 Like it's always there's always a judgment call to be made, 0:41:44.960 --> 0:41:47.480 you know, and maybe Bruce Heppner is a guy who's 0:41:47.520 --> 0:41:50.439 like not willing to make that call. And then on 0:41:50.840 --> 0:41:55.719 certain stages like championship golf courses, members and architects are 0:41:55.800 --> 0:41:59.920 much more willing to make those calls for the same 0:42:00.160 --> 0:42:03.000 of continuing the tradition of championship golf. 0:42:03.680 --> 0:42:03.840 You know. 0:42:04.440 --> 0:42:07.680 Yeah, well, well, Balthus roll Lower is an interesting comparison 0:42:07.960 --> 0:42:14.359 because they're a lot of historical evidence was used, as 0:42:14.400 --> 0:42:18.600 you obviously know, like Gil loves to use historical photographs 0:42:18.640 --> 0:42:21.840 and really try to precisely get back what was there. 0:42:22.640 --> 0:42:26.520 But in the end, those greens were dug up and 0:42:28.000 --> 0:42:31.759 you know, high tech infrastructure was put under them, and 0:42:31.800 --> 0:42:33.240 then they were reconstructed. 0:42:33.560 --> 0:42:35.600 Well they were scanned, you know, they were scanned to 0:42:35.920 --> 0:42:39.920 a very high degree of accuracy. The greens were certainly 0:42:40.040 --> 0:42:43.520 expanded around the edges, and like I said before. They 0:42:44.400 --> 0:42:47.960 they look amazing. They're also expanded around the edges to 0:42:48.160 --> 0:42:52.080 improve pin locations because they want championship golf and the 0:42:52.120 --> 0:42:55.520 greens running at twelve plus and the members want to 0:42:55.520 --> 0:42:58.479 play that every day. You know. It's like Wainfoot, same deal. 0:42:58.920 --> 0:43:02.279 You know. That's what's so was the experience there is 0:43:02.400 --> 0:43:08.000 playing US Open Golf PG Championship golf. So it's it's 0:43:08.040 --> 0:43:10.960 really tough. Like I'm one like going back to Hooper, 0:43:11.320 --> 0:43:14.479 you know, I sympathize with like regular members who don't 0:43:14.520 --> 0:43:19.640 get to experience like the full dynamism of that hole 0:43:19.680 --> 0:43:22.759 at Hooper. It's such a cool hole. The second it's 0:43:22.760 --> 0:43:26.480 a short par five, and the idea is, okay, if 0:43:26.520 --> 0:43:28.840 the pin's in the middle of the green or in 0:43:28.880 --> 0:43:32.040 the back of the green, how dare do you get 0:43:32.239 --> 0:43:36.440 close to that pin? Because the danger like ratchets up 0:43:36.520 --> 0:43:39.600 the more club that you take. These days, the pin 0:43:39.640 --> 0:43:43.080 can only be laid in the front third of the green. 0:43:43.400 --> 0:43:46.279 You're always sure of the bunkers, you never feel like 0:43:46.320 --> 0:43:50.040 you need to take extra club, and the strategy becomes 0:43:50.239 --> 0:43:54.080 you know, dull. So then you say, okay, what do 0:43:54.120 --> 0:43:56.160 we do? Do we just slow all the greens down, 0:43:56.480 --> 0:43:59.440 or do we, you know, take take a few inches 0:43:59.480 --> 0:44:03.160 off the back and restore the playing strategy. And that's 0:44:03.960 --> 0:44:06.840 the opinions vary wildly. 0:44:07.440 --> 0:44:10.719 Oh I'm sure. I'm sure it's a lively debate. But 0:44:11.480 --> 0:44:14.719 these are the questions that I think more and more 0:44:14.840 --> 0:44:18.719 architects are going to need to confront going forward in 0:44:18.760 --> 0:44:21.880 renovation and restoration projects. And I think part of the 0:44:21.920 --> 0:44:24.200 reason for that is that a lot of the great 0:44:24.320 --> 0:44:30.080 courses that could be restored through less interventionist methods or 0:44:30.120 --> 0:44:35.680 with more historical accuracy have been restored, maybe even multiple times. 0:44:35.680 --> 0:44:40.440 At this point, they've they've been restored supposedly right, And 0:44:40.480 --> 0:44:43.960 so what's left is courses that have either been altered 0:44:44.000 --> 0:44:48.440 beyond recognition so that very little remains to be restored, 0:44:49.280 --> 0:44:52.560 or courses that maybe weren't very good to begin with. 0:44:53.680 --> 0:44:56.959 And so the architect is put in the position of 0:44:57.840 --> 0:45:01.200 trying to introduce some of their own idea is and say, 0:45:01.760 --> 0:45:04.359 this is what I think good golf is. If we 0:45:04.400 --> 0:45:06.720 want to make this a good golf course as opposed 0:45:06.760 --> 0:45:11.719 to just a restored or historically authentic golf course, then 0:45:11.760 --> 0:45:13.879 here are some of the things that we need to do. 0:45:14.680 --> 0:45:16.120 And so how do you how do you get to 0:45:16.160 --> 0:45:19.640 that point where you have enough guts basically to say 0:45:20.239 --> 0:45:22.600 this is what I think would best serve the golf course. 0:45:23.400 --> 0:45:25.959 Well, yeah, I mean it just you got to build 0:45:26.040 --> 0:45:30.080 up a lot of trust with your client. And you 0:45:30.120 --> 0:45:32.680 know here right behind me where you know, I'm sitting 0:45:32.719 --> 0:45:34.879 in the office at essex Fell's country Club right now, 0:45:34.920 --> 0:45:36.680 it's a it's a job that I'm working on with 0:45:36.760 --> 0:45:40.000 Jim Orbina's who's done a lot of this restoration work. 0:45:40.040 --> 0:45:42.640 And you know, we could open up that conversation about 0:45:42.760 --> 0:45:45.480 you know, Posit Tiempo is too as well, like where 0:45:45.520 --> 0:45:49.759 they did a lot of archaeological type construction method. But 0:45:49.920 --> 0:45:52.840 here at essex Fell's this is kind of a mishmash 0:45:53.160 --> 0:45:56.640 of architects coming through here throughout the years. You know, 0:45:57.080 --> 0:45:59.840 we have record of SETH. Rayner coming through and he 0:45:59.840 --> 0:46:03.560 did did a survey as built drainage plan, and then 0:46:03.600 --> 0:46:08.280 we have another plan of Tilling Hast drawing green sketches 0:46:08.320 --> 0:46:13.000 in the margins of that drainage plan. Rhees Jones has 0:46:13.000 --> 0:46:16.799 been through the golf course and and now Jim and 0:46:16.840 --> 0:46:21.480 I are here doing just exactly what you are alluding to, 0:46:21.680 --> 0:46:25.880 is like creating good golf, you know, usable space. 0:46:26.080 --> 0:46:26.200 Uh. 0:46:26.800 --> 0:46:29.120 You know one thing that we you know, we didn't 0:46:29.239 --> 0:46:34.760 really thought, we didn't really feel like fit the style 0:46:35.239 --> 0:46:38.480 of the golf course here at Essex Fells is you know, 0:46:38.560 --> 0:46:41.040 the Jones group brought a lot of dirt in around 0:46:41.200 --> 0:46:45.120 the greens to I guess kind of create the sense 0:46:45.160 --> 0:46:49.480 of difficulty when you really didn't we didn't think you 0:46:49.560 --> 0:46:52.120 really have to do that. So we're kind of undoing 0:46:52.200 --> 0:46:57.160 some of that, removing the extraneous soil and creating some 0:46:57.239 --> 0:47:00.920 of those sharper features and and fall off that. You know, 0:47:01.000 --> 0:47:03.800 tilling Hast has shown us a lot of his original work, 0:47:04.360 --> 0:47:08.360 and we believe tilling Hass did some original work here. Uh, 0:47:08.680 --> 0:47:10.960 you know, it's just some of it is beyond recognition. 0:47:12.000 --> 0:47:15.520 Yeah, And you're using your own judgment to put it 0:47:15.560 --> 0:47:18.359 back together, your own knowledge of what telling Hast might 0:47:18.400 --> 0:47:21.719 have done or what he could have done, and not 0:47:21.760 --> 0:47:26.040 necessarily needing to fall back on historical evidence to justify 0:47:26.680 --> 0:47:29.200 your moves. And that sometimes a little bit scary, I 0:47:29.239 --> 0:47:29.960 would imagine. 0:47:30.200 --> 0:47:33.600 Yeah, sometimes the evidence just isn't there anymore. It's just 0:47:33.680 --> 0:47:37.839 it's just been you know, warmed over. Uh and and 0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:40.040 a lot of the bunkers get crowded into the side 0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:42.040 of the greens, and that's what create you know, they 0:47:42.080 --> 0:47:46.480 create these like these false roles that clearly were never 0:47:46.560 --> 0:47:48.160 on the side of the greens. And you can see 0:47:48.160 --> 0:47:51.120 that in the when you take it apart, you can see, 0:47:52.600 --> 0:47:55.080 you know, what materials were used, so you can see, Okay, 0:47:55.080 --> 0:47:57.600 somebody did something here, So let's the first step is 0:47:57.640 --> 0:48:01.839 just take it away and tie into what they didn't touch, right, 0:48:01.880 --> 0:48:04.240 and so that you know, so your powers of intuition 0:48:04.360 --> 0:48:08.120 are just by being very careful about how you go about, 0:48:09.000 --> 0:48:12.640 you know, deconstructing things sometimes that and then you have 0:48:12.719 --> 0:48:15.359 to know when to stop and maybe that's you know, 0:48:15.480 --> 0:48:18.000 that's where our expertise comes into play. 0:48:18.480 --> 0:48:18.919 M hmm. 0:48:19.200 --> 0:48:19.399 Yeah. 0:48:19.440 --> 0:48:24.040 Personally, I think these projects are really exciting because you 0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:27.080 need to make some of these judgment calls. And so 0:48:27.400 --> 0:48:33.360 I'm actually very really anticipating that that the restoration and 0:48:33.440 --> 0:48:37.200 renovation game is only going to get more interesting as 0:48:37.239 --> 0:48:40.000 we go on because the projects, a lot of the 0:48:40.040 --> 0:48:41.960 projects do exist in this gray area. 0:48:42.400 --> 0:48:45.480 Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think, like everything is that 0:48:45.520 --> 0:48:48.600 we're always approaching like our work and thinking how can 0:48:48.640 --> 0:48:51.719 we improve this area? You know, how can we make 0:48:51.800 --> 0:48:54.640 this shot value a little bit better? How can we 0:48:54.680 --> 0:48:57.520 make this uh, you know if if there's too many 0:48:57.560 --> 0:49:00.520 bunkers that's often happens like too many bunkers pinched the 0:49:00.560 --> 0:49:03.040 front of a green right, how can we create an 0:49:03.080 --> 0:49:06.719 angle by removing a bunker and maybe shifting one in 0:49:06.760 --> 0:49:11.040 the other direction, opening up locations and things. So it's 0:49:11.080 --> 0:49:14.080 a very fun exercise. And again you're putting on your 0:49:14.200 --> 0:49:17.239 architectural hat and you know whether it be Tilling, Hass, 0:49:17.360 --> 0:49:21.080 Travis or Emmett, and you're doing your best to incorporate 0:49:21.120 --> 0:49:26.440 their design principles into the way into the lens of improvement, 0:49:26.800 --> 0:49:28.080 design restoration. 0:49:29.680 --> 0:49:31.880 Jeff, it's been very fun talking to you. Thanks for 0:49:31.880 --> 0:49:32.640 spending the time. 0:49:33.000 --> 0:49:35.359 I really appreciate it. Garry a lot of fun as well. 0:49:35.440 --> 0:49:36.799 Hope we can do it again soon. 0:49:37.120 --> 0:49:46.160 Absolutely. This episode of Designing Golf is brought to you 0:49:46.200 --> 0:49:52.280 by Perfect Practice and specifically Perfect Practice's new product, chip Shot. 0:49:52.560 --> 0:49:55.120 This is the first chipping that on the market with 0:49:55.200 --> 0:49:59.600 an automatic ball return. There's a large, multicolored target that 0:49:59.680 --> 0:50:03.040 helps improve aim and accuracy. It can be used on 0:50:03.120 --> 0:50:06.600 grass outdoors, but it also comes with a turf mat 0:50:06.640 --> 0:50:11.239 as well. It's exclusive to perfect Practice dot Com and Amazon, 0:50:11.320 --> 0:50:14.840 and it's currently available in both places, so this is 0:50:15.000 --> 0:50:18.399 ready for the holiday season. I currently have my chip 0:50:18.400 --> 0:50:21.480 Shot set up in my backyard. It's under my patio 0:50:21.600 --> 0:50:24.520 cover and I'm very much relying on it to get 0:50:24.520 --> 0:50:28.600 me through the rainy winter here in Portland, Oregon. So 0:50:29.080 --> 0:50:33.600 Perfect Practice products are available online at perfect practice dot 0:50:33.640 --> 0:50:37.440 com and you can use the code design for twenty 0:50:37.520 --> 0:50:43.200 percent off. That's the code design de sign is I 0:50:43.200 --> 0:50:47.640 believe how design is spelled. But this code is specific 0:50:47.920 --> 0:50:51.400 to the Designing Golf podcast. So if you've been enjoying 0:50:51.440 --> 0:50:54.560 this particular podcast, then this is a great way to 0:50:55.000 --> 0:50:58.239 show that if you also are looking for a chipping mat, 0:50:58.280 --> 0:51:02.080 so check out chip Shot by Perfect Practice. All right, 0:51:02.400 --> 0:51:11.560 let's get to my interview with Clyde Johnson. Clyde Johnson, 0:51:11.640 --> 0:51:12.640 welcome to the podcast. 0:51:13.120 --> 0:51:14.160 A right good to be honest. 0:51:15.239 --> 0:51:17.640 So I wanted to make sure to speak with you, Clyde, 0:51:17.719 --> 0:51:22.480 because you've recently been doing a kind of restoration work 0:51:22.640 --> 0:51:26.560 that is pretty rare right now, but I think might 0:51:26.600 --> 0:51:29.799 become more common in the coming years, and that is 0:51:30.239 --> 0:51:35.439 the restoration of links courses. So, first of all, why 0:51:35.440 --> 0:51:37.960 do you think links courses in Great Britain and Ireland 0:51:38.000 --> 0:51:41.400 have generally not done restoration projects. 0:51:41.560 --> 0:51:44.240 I think generally is that there's an attitude towards golf 0:51:44.280 --> 0:51:46.520 and Great Britain mind as you know, we certainly not 0:51:46.719 --> 0:51:50.719 precious about the history of our golf courses. I don't think, 0:51:50.719 --> 0:51:54.080 you know, golf courses have evolved a lot, especially over 0:51:54.360 --> 0:51:58.120 you know, from the mid eighteen hundreds to the nineteen thirties. 0:51:58.320 --> 0:52:01.759 You know, golf courses, even the great golf courses like Mirfield's, 0:52:01.760 --> 0:52:09.879 evolved a bunch over over that fifty thirty seventy year period, 0:52:09.920 --> 0:52:11.879 depending on the age of when the golf course was 0:52:11.920 --> 0:52:16.080 initially laid out and developed. Yeah, so I don't think, 0:52:16.719 --> 0:52:20.160 you know, there's this there's not that same preciousness towards 0:52:20.160 --> 0:52:22.240 the work. And you know, if we're talking about restoration, 0:52:22.840 --> 0:52:26.439 it's really difficult to take a fixed point and time 0:52:26.480 --> 0:52:31.960 to restore a golf course too. So yeah, I think 0:52:31.960 --> 0:52:33.439 that's a lot of it. Really. 0:52:33.520 --> 0:52:36.480 In Hoursty you mentioned that a lot of British links 0:52:36.480 --> 0:52:39.920 clubs don't really seem to think of themselves as having 0:52:40.800 --> 0:52:44.719 like significant architecture that needs to be preserved right there. 0:52:45.120 --> 0:52:47.560 They instead kind of view their courses as grounds for 0:52:47.600 --> 0:52:52.319 the game, and those grounds evolve as time goes on. 0:52:52.520 --> 0:52:56.040 And that's okay, I've heard you make that point before. 0:52:56.040 --> 0:52:59.359 It's a really interesting point of difference between between say, 0:52:59.440 --> 0:53:02.600 UK golf and American golf, where a lot of people 0:53:02.640 --> 0:53:06.240 in the American golf community are now kind of obsessed 0:53:06.239 --> 0:53:09.120 with the history of architecture and bringing back things from 0:53:09.160 --> 0:53:12.279 the Golden Age exactly as they were. There's there's not 0:53:12.400 --> 0:53:14.799 as much of that ideology I guess that you find 0:53:15.320 --> 0:53:20.200 at especially older UK links clubs. Do you think that 0:53:20.360 --> 0:53:22.880 perception is changing now and and do you want to 0:53:22.960 --> 0:53:23.319 change it? 0:53:24.160 --> 0:53:25.680 Yeah? I think I think, I think yeah, I think 0:53:25.680 --> 0:53:28.560 I think it definitely. It definitely is more recognition of 0:53:29.400 --> 0:53:32.720 you know, a golf course is history and past and 0:53:32.920 --> 0:53:35.879 how it's evolved, you know, partly, you know, I think 0:53:35.920 --> 0:53:40.839 most of that really comes from American influence in terms 0:53:40.880 --> 0:53:44.840 of coverage of golf course architecture, you guys, and you know, 0:53:45.000 --> 0:53:49.799 almost talking about this type of stuff more readily. And 0:53:49.840 --> 0:53:54.880 I think, you know, I think British architects as well 0:53:54.920 --> 0:53:59.239 have seen what's been done in America as well, you know, 0:53:59.480 --> 0:54:04.280 in the reference for the history, and you know, wanted 0:54:04.280 --> 0:54:08.080 to incorporate, incorporate that certainly into certainly into thought processes 0:54:08.760 --> 0:54:11.840 an execution of of work over here, you know. But 0:54:11.920 --> 0:54:14.040 you know, it's it tends. It tends to be you 0:54:14.040 --> 0:54:17.520 know when when we I think when clubs look at 0:54:17.520 --> 0:54:21.680 the past, but you know, when it comes to doing work, 0:54:21.800 --> 0:54:25.960 they use it. They're looking at the past for you know, ideas, 0:54:26.120 --> 0:54:29.200 you know, ideas to grab onto as opposed to wholesale 0:54:29.680 --> 0:54:37.520 and exact restoration to that to that certain day. So yeah, 0:54:37.719 --> 0:54:40.280 certain there's there's certainly more value. There's certainly more value 0:54:40.360 --> 0:54:43.800 and knowledge near today history about history our clubs, and 0:54:43.880 --> 0:54:45.400 I think I think that's generally a good thing. You know, 0:54:46.120 --> 0:54:49.240 it's not it's not restoration for the sake of restoration. 0:54:49.360 --> 0:54:51.560 But if there was a good idea that you know, 0:54:51.560 --> 0:54:52.640 if it looked to be a good idea it was 0:54:52.640 --> 0:54:54.600 one hundred years ago and it helped solve a prone 0:54:54.680 --> 0:54:56.480 or it makes some more interest in golf today, why 0:54:56.560 --> 0:54:58.160 why not look at the past and use that for 0:54:58.200 --> 0:55:01.439 inspiration and bring that back into into you know, some 0:55:01.520 --> 0:55:03.719 of some of our golf courses today. And you know, 0:55:03.800 --> 0:55:06.879 often you know no thing, you know golf courses, all 0:55:06.920 --> 0:55:10.239 these you know linkxy features links, you know, links in 0:55:10.280 --> 0:55:14.040 the general lynx environment. You know, it's continually evolving more 0:55:14.080 --> 0:55:16.000 than any type of any of the type of golf 0:55:16.000 --> 0:55:19.319 course really, you know, so there's there's generally a reason 0:55:19.360 --> 0:55:22.080 why golf courses have evolved, and there's not massive big 0:55:22.960 --> 0:55:27.239 blowout e sand scraping bunkers anymore. So you know, when 0:55:27.280 --> 0:55:30.160 you are thinking about, you know, recapturing and reusing these 0:55:30.480 --> 0:55:33.120 historic features, you know, you kind of got to have 0:55:33.280 --> 0:55:36.120 a fairly pragmatic and practical approach and think how you 0:55:36.160 --> 0:55:38.759 can lean on those, but also think how it might 0:55:38.800 --> 0:55:41.960 work and exist today, because you don't want to put 0:55:41.960 --> 0:55:44.320 them back and then watch them being done again or 0:55:44.320 --> 0:55:45.839 filled in in five or ten years time. 0:55:46.080 --> 0:55:48.600 Some of these factors that you're talking about are part 0:55:48.640 --> 0:55:54.640 of why the idea of British links restoration is so interesting, 0:55:54.680 --> 0:55:57.880 because because it's kind of a more towards the beginning 0:55:57.920 --> 0:56:01.880 stages of that movement than a lot of American Golden 0:56:01.920 --> 0:56:04.759 Age clubs are, where restoration has been kind of a 0:56:04.800 --> 0:56:08.640 fixed reality of those clubs and what they're doing for 0:56:08.960 --> 0:56:13.280 you know, thirty years now. And so it's I'm excited 0:56:13.280 --> 0:56:16.600 to get into some specific examples with you of projects 0:56:16.640 --> 0:56:20.919 that you've done at links courses. So, first off, over 0:56:20.920 --> 0:56:24.480 the past four years you've helped with some projects at 0:56:24.520 --> 0:56:29.040 North Barrack Golf Club, the famous and very wonderful Links 0:56:29.080 --> 0:56:32.799 course in East Lothian, Scotland, famous as the home of 0:56:32.880 --> 0:56:36.080 the Radan Hole and the pit hole and Perfection and 0:56:36.600 --> 0:56:39.120 many other holes that have kind of served as an 0:56:39.160 --> 0:56:42.200 inspiration for later golf golf architects. And you know, I 0:56:42.239 --> 0:56:45.200 think there's been kind of a rediscovery of North Barrack's 0:56:45.239 --> 0:56:48.960 brilliance over the past decade or so. It's really risen 0:56:49.000 --> 0:56:52.440 in prominence, I think, or in at least in frequency 0:56:52.480 --> 0:56:55.240 of discussion as far as I've been able to see, 0:56:56.080 --> 0:56:59.040 So have what have just broad strokes what have your 0:56:59.040 --> 0:57:02.600 projects at North Barrick Ben over over the past three 0:57:02.680 --> 0:57:03.799 years or four years. 0:57:03.840 --> 0:57:06.840 So it's it's kind of funny really, you know, on 0:57:06.880 --> 0:57:09.600 some of the stuff we talked about earlier, as as 0:57:09.640 --> 0:57:14.920 Northbury Bay has become more recognized and fought more fondly 0:57:14.960 --> 0:57:22.200 of over the last decade fifteen years, say, the architectural 0:57:22.200 --> 0:57:24.640 presentation of the golf course until four or five years 0:57:24.680 --> 0:57:28.520 ago was actually going in the opposite direction. Fair Ways 0:57:28.520 --> 0:57:34.240 were shrinking greens were shrinking. Bunkers. Bunkers were massively shrinking. 0:57:34.280 --> 0:57:37.120 You know, you know when you rebuild, when you rebuild 0:57:37.120 --> 0:57:40.160 a revetted or sod wall bunker, you know, normally you'd 0:57:40.400 --> 0:57:44.920 chased back in you know by you know, mostly by hand, 0:57:45.240 --> 0:57:47.720 uh you know, shovel out of the old revet wallers 0:57:47.760 --> 0:57:50.520 that decayed, say between three and seven years have been 0:57:50.560 --> 0:57:55.120 the the average lifespan of a revetted wall, depending on orientation, 0:57:55.720 --> 0:58:00.240 exposure to win, amount of traffic, et cetera. You know, 0:58:00.440 --> 0:58:02.760 you know, rather than rather than the older ready wall 0:58:02.840 --> 0:58:07.120 being chased out and the new wall being built in 0:58:07.160 --> 0:58:09.560 the same position, as they're really careful to do at 0:58:09.880 --> 0:58:13.360 the old course in Beuerfield was being built on the 0:58:13.360 --> 0:58:15.720 inside of the old wall. And you know that happens 0:58:15.800 --> 0:58:18.720 over a twenty to thirty year period soddenly something the 0:58:18.720 --> 0:58:23.200 bunker becomes half the size. So you know, a lot 0:58:23.200 --> 0:58:25.520 of you know, a lot of the work has been 0:58:25.520 --> 0:58:29.800 to remedy, remedy therese remedying. The fairway lines were really 0:58:29.800 --> 0:58:32.720 shrunk in. For fairway, for example, was maybe about fifteen 0:58:32.800 --> 0:58:37.720 yards wide. Four or five years ago. As Kyle's Grugshanks, 0:58:37.440 --> 0:58:41.080 the superintendent was taking over and we've slowly been able 0:58:41.080 --> 0:58:44.680 to push that out to thirty thirty five yards kind 0:58:44.680 --> 0:58:46.600 of back to where it used to be. Picking up 0:58:46.640 --> 0:58:49.640 so some of the cool old features that are on 0:58:49.440 --> 0:58:54.000 the right, on the seaside side of the whole. The 0:58:54.040 --> 0:58:56.959 same same with green expansions too, just just getting those 0:58:57.000 --> 0:59:00.720 back as far as irrigation will allow, and then assisting 0:59:00.840 --> 0:59:02.880 Kyle with a lot of the you know, you know, 0:59:03.160 --> 0:59:07.200 he's he's had a four or five year program for 0:59:07.480 --> 0:59:09.480 vetting the bunkers that you tend to tend to do 0:59:09.560 --> 0:59:15.280 North berks, not particularly bunker heavy golf course in Link's terms, 0:59:15.320 --> 0:59:17.800 probably seventy twenty bunkers so I remember correctly, but you know, 0:59:18.160 --> 0:59:22.160 rotating those on a five year program, so twenty is 0:59:22.600 --> 0:59:25.080 twenty ye ish bunkers a year, and then just really 0:59:25.120 --> 0:59:29.760 helping him to recapture the original size of those while 0:59:29.800 --> 0:59:33.120 also dealing with you know a lot of them. You know, 0:59:33.200 --> 0:59:36.800 so there were Dwanhill, for example, the famous or not 0:59:36.880 --> 0:59:38.640 the famous book with the lamb the lamb bunker on 0:59:38.680 --> 0:59:40.320 the left, on the inside of that one that tilts 0:59:40.320 --> 0:59:44.600 away that that become it was maybe three yards three 0:59:44.640 --> 0:59:47.439 yards deep in terms of you know, from the green 0:59:47.640 --> 0:59:51.880 side back to the direction to play floor was floor 0:59:52.000 --> 0:59:54.880 was tilting really hard towards the base of the revect wall, 0:59:54.880 --> 0:59:57.280 which meant, you know, the ball would generally have become 0:59:57.360 --> 0:59:59.840 trapped right at the face and you know, the floor 0:59:59.880 --> 1:00:03.600 to bunker and also deepened with times versus where it 1:00:03.680 --> 1:00:06.240 used to be. So not only did not only did 1:00:06.280 --> 1:00:09.400 it look inconsequential or not be fitting of hold the 1:00:09.440 --> 1:00:12.040 scale or statue of the redown, it was also become 1:00:12.080 --> 1:00:16.080 really playable and difficult for the average golfer. So it 1:00:16.160 --> 1:00:19.720 was remedying stuff like that while thinking about, you know, 1:00:19.800 --> 1:00:22.760 improving the maintainability of those features as well. 1:00:23.080 --> 1:00:26.560 There have obviously been many versions of North Barrick over 1:00:26.600 --> 1:00:29.560 the years, and so yeah, one of my questions is 1:00:29.600 --> 1:00:32.280 always like what how do you settle on a version 1:00:32.320 --> 1:00:34.120 of the course to go back to When you're doing 1:00:34.160 --> 1:00:38.800 things like working on bunkers on the Radan hole, you know, 1:00:38.880 --> 1:00:41.400 what kind of historical evidence do you look at and 1:00:41.400 --> 1:00:43.840 then how do you make a decision about what's the 1:00:43.880 --> 1:00:46.760 best version of that bunker that we want to bring back. 1:00:47.720 --> 1:00:50.560 Well, listen, there's some great obviously his pretty famous holes, 1:00:50.560 --> 1:00:54.960 some great old photographs. There was a nineteen twenty nine 1:00:55.000 --> 1:01:00.360 areals that really helped, like an aerial photograss. There was 1:01:00.400 --> 1:01:05.120 a nineteen twelve plan sketch that actually talked about how 1:01:05.200 --> 1:01:09.240 deep the faces of the bunkers were. So the lamb 1:01:09.240 --> 1:01:13.560 bunker was six foot deep. We worked on the Raddan 1:01:13.720 --> 1:01:15.640 got the color ra Dan bunker, which is the pair 1:01:15.640 --> 1:01:19.280 of bunkers at the front forty to fifty yards short 1:01:19.320 --> 1:01:21.680 of the green. This went that was seven foot deep, 1:01:21.720 --> 1:01:25.880 for example. But then the bunkers on the right of 1:01:25.920 --> 1:01:28.000 the green, which are now free today and have been 1:01:28.360 --> 1:01:34.400 free in number since nineteen nineteen thirties, I think around 1:01:34.400 --> 1:01:36.400 that time, but a long time anyway, that you know, 1:01:36.480 --> 1:01:40.360 in that sketch were only actually two bunkers, so had 1:01:40.360 --> 1:01:44.400 a bunch of great ground photographs. So one you know 1:01:45.400 --> 1:01:47.840 some of the really some of the late eighteen hundreds 1:01:47.920 --> 1:01:51.400 early nineteen hundreds pictures. You know, the rare Dan was 1:01:51.440 --> 1:01:57.960 stabilized by a sleeper wall, for example, but you know 1:01:58.000 --> 1:02:02.840 with time that became a sod walls. So you you're basically, 1:02:02.880 --> 1:02:04.600 you know my approaches, you're kind of thinking about the 1:02:04.600 --> 1:02:07.760 problems that you're trying to solve that exists with the 1:02:07.800 --> 1:02:11.440 existing bunker off feature, and then you're kind of interpolating 1:02:11.720 --> 1:02:14.880 all of the different imagery that you've gotten, coming up 1:02:14.880 --> 1:02:18.360 a solution that kind of fits the problems that you're 1:02:18.360 --> 1:02:22.439 trying to address with, you know, a nod to how 1:02:22.440 --> 1:02:25.640 the bunker used to look and how the bunker used 1:02:25.680 --> 1:02:27.800 to play. So, you know, on the lamp on the 1:02:27.880 --> 1:02:29.640 lamb bunker left of the green, we kind of restored 1:02:30.000 --> 1:02:32.680 that sold wall to the you know, to six foot high, 1:02:32.800 --> 1:02:35.120 really really cut it tight or as tight as possible 1:02:35.800 --> 1:02:39.120 to the green, squaring off the corners. You know, that 1:02:39.240 --> 1:02:40.880 kind of you kind of give that old you know, 1:02:40.920 --> 1:02:43.880 you look at you know, modern revetted softwall bunkers of 1:02:44.240 --> 1:02:45.800 you know tend to people a little bit rounder, and 1:02:45.960 --> 1:02:48.840 that's I think that's really driven by maintenance and wanting 1:02:48.880 --> 1:02:52.600 to get you know, the triplex mo as close as 1:02:52.640 --> 1:02:57.000 close as possible and riding over and tight to the 1:02:57.000 --> 1:03:00.600 top of those lips. And then you know, also also 1:03:00.680 --> 1:03:03.840 raising the floor, also tilting the floor back up towards 1:03:04.000 --> 1:03:05.640 the green, you know, in the old in some of 1:03:05.680 --> 1:03:07.920 the old folk or actually you can clearly see in 1:03:07.960 --> 1:03:13.400 both versions where it was either timber, timber faced or 1:03:13.440 --> 1:03:16.480 so on faced. You know, the floor was climbing up 1:03:16.960 --> 1:03:18.760 into the far car, up the bunk and the wind 1:03:18.800 --> 1:03:21.040 which just doing its thinging like blow around, and it 1:03:21.160 --> 1:03:24.760 kind of looked cool, easy to access, easy to access, 1:03:24.760 --> 1:03:27.200 an easier to play out, while also of looking visually 1:03:27.200 --> 1:03:28.000 pretty intimidating. 1:03:28.280 --> 1:03:29.640 Yeah, so let me let me know if this is 1:03:29.680 --> 1:03:32.720 like a good distillation of what you're saying about your approach. 1:03:32.760 --> 1:03:35.080 You're you're kind of you're you're coming in there to 1:03:35.120 --> 1:03:38.960 solve current some current problems with whatever version of the 1:03:39.120 --> 1:03:43.000 course currently exists, problems that numbers are having, or or 1:03:43.080 --> 1:03:45.640 just you know, maybe esthetic problems or problems with the 1:03:45.720 --> 1:03:50.520 architecture in general, and you are looking at some historical 1:03:50.640 --> 1:03:56.480 evidence to find, you know, possible solutions to that problem. 1:03:56.680 --> 1:04:01.200 You're not necessarily saying like nineteen nineteen was the best 1:04:01.280 --> 1:04:03.400 version of North Barrick and that's what we're going to 1:04:03.440 --> 1:04:06.000 bring back, which is a very common approach in the 1:04:06.120 --> 1:04:09.800 US where where where where you know, fed the line 1:04:09.840 --> 1:04:13.520 by by many clubs that you know, this particular year 1:04:13.880 --> 1:04:16.439 is the course that we think was ideal, and we're 1:04:16.440 --> 1:04:19.000 going to do everything we can to get the course 1:04:19.080 --> 1:04:22.640 back from from that year. It seems like this is 1:04:22.640 --> 1:04:25.800 a more complex process where where you have to go 1:04:25.920 --> 1:04:29.120 through a number of different options, see different iterations of 1:04:29.120 --> 1:04:33.080 the feature and kind of decide all right, this this 1:04:33.160 --> 1:04:35.560 is the one that best serves our current needs. 1:04:36.600 --> 1:04:39.480 Yeah, I tend to have a fairly tragmatic approach to 1:04:39.600 --> 1:04:42.440 certainly consulting golf cost design. But really it's kind of 1:04:42.560 --> 1:04:44.880 kind of thinking of you really just create, you know, 1:04:44.960 --> 1:04:48.160 problem solving in a creative way, you know, with with 1:04:48.440 --> 1:04:51.520 the nod to history. So you know, you kind of 1:04:51.840 --> 1:04:54.680 especially at place as historically significant as North Barrick, you know, 1:04:55.000 --> 1:04:58.240 you've got to view your role as a custodian. You know, 1:04:58.280 --> 1:05:01.280 you're only you're only there for you already working there 1:05:01.280 --> 1:05:03.520 for a short moment in the golf course's history of 1:05:03.520 --> 1:05:05.919 the golf course has evolved. What you kind of want 1:05:05.960 --> 1:05:09.800 to make sure the pieces or your impact on the 1:05:09.800 --> 1:05:12.360 golf course is sensitive to what's gone before, but also 1:05:13.120 --> 1:05:16.600 can hopefully stand the test of time. So you know, 1:05:18.320 --> 1:05:20.960 you know, I was going to say, you know, going 1:05:21.000 --> 1:05:23.840 back in and recreated a cool feature that was one 1:05:23.880 --> 1:05:27.240 hundred years old that obviously didn't last beyond a certain 1:05:27.280 --> 1:05:31.040 period without thinking about the consequences of that. It's a 1:05:31.360 --> 1:05:34.120 it's a surefire way to have to have to redo 1:05:34.160 --> 1:05:36.360 your work pretty soon, pretty soon after. And there is 1:05:36.360 --> 1:05:38.560 only you know, there is only a lifespan. There is 1:05:38.600 --> 1:05:41.680 only a certain lifespan to a revetted bunker, you know, 1:05:41.720 --> 1:05:44.080 So you've kind of got you know, you kind of 1:05:44.280 --> 1:05:47.640 you're accepting that the next person to build that's probably 1:05:47.680 --> 1:05:51.240 going to be the you know, the greenkeeping team without 1:05:51.280 --> 1:05:54.080 any put from an architect or a designer. That's the 1:05:54.120 --> 1:05:56.120 assumption that you're going to make. So you kind of 1:05:56.160 --> 1:05:58.200 got to set them in the right place. And you know, 1:05:58.640 --> 1:06:01.520 if you do get if some thing doesn't quite turn 1:06:01.560 --> 1:06:04.960 out right, you know, then it's you can you can 1:06:05.040 --> 1:06:06.680 force be a little bit more risky, I think when 1:06:06.840 --> 1:06:11.360 in the links environment, and and you know, building reverted 1:06:11.400 --> 1:06:14.840 bunkers partly because they've only got a short lifespan, and 1:06:14.920 --> 1:06:17.680 you know, constructions relatively easy in the sound, and you know, 1:06:18.240 --> 1:06:22.240 often the materials you're using coming from the sites that 1:06:22.440 --> 1:06:24.080 they've got their own turf now sort of they're using 1:06:24.160 --> 1:06:27.520 for reverted walls, et cetera. So you know, if you 1:06:27.560 --> 1:06:29.400 don't quite get the walk, you know, you lead the 1:06:29.440 --> 1:06:32.680 walk in a little steep because that's what it used 1:06:32.680 --> 1:06:35.240 to look like in the old photographs, but it doesn't 1:06:35.320 --> 1:06:38.120 quite work as you think, or the wind blows and 1:06:38.200 --> 1:06:40.480 the roads more in a certain direction. You can theind 1:06:40.480 --> 1:06:43.240 of just that wall, just to just hold the sandal 1:06:43.240 --> 1:06:44.800 a little bit more. Next time around you do it. 1:06:44.840 --> 1:06:48.160 You know, you look at the mut Field's got a 1:06:48.240 --> 1:06:50.560 mate got putting the best reveeted bunkcause anywhere in the world, 1:06:50.560 --> 1:06:54.000 and they, you know, they've evolved really over seventy eight years, 1:06:54.120 --> 1:06:57.880 whereas North Berwick because of the north the reflect the 1:06:57.960 --> 1:07:00.960 neglects it kind of had, which is perhaps a bit 1:07:01.000 --> 1:07:04.080 of an fair word, but you know the bunkers really 1:07:04.120 --> 1:07:08.320 were because of that neglect over the last thirty years. Say, 1:07:09.320 --> 1:07:11.720 you know, you kind of starting against well a lot 1:07:11.840 --> 1:07:13.680 on a lot of those books, rather than you know, 1:07:14.080 --> 1:07:18.520 having had that dialed in or refined final bunker, if 1:07:18.560 --> 1:07:19.160 that makes sense. 1:07:19.520 --> 1:07:22.640 So, just a couple of days before I'm talking to 1:07:22.720 --> 1:07:27.480 you right now, Clyde north Barrick actually announced that it 1:07:27.560 --> 1:07:31.280 had hired Gil Hants as its new consulting architect. So 1:07:31.400 --> 1:07:36.160 you and north Barrick are parting ways. I just wonder 1:07:36.200 --> 1:07:38.640 when when you kind of reflect on your work there 1:07:38.720 --> 1:07:41.120 now that it's now that it's kind of a complete 1:07:41.120 --> 1:07:45.960 four years of of interventions at North Barrick and tweaks 1:07:45.960 --> 1:07:50.240 and adjustments and things like that. What overall effect you 1:07:50.360 --> 1:07:52.800 do you hope that your work there had had on the. 1:07:52.720 --> 1:07:57.040 Course and really well so it's been a privileged to 1:07:57.240 --> 1:08:00.360 how a golf course like North Beric ando into have 1:08:00.480 --> 1:08:04.520 the opportunity to really recapture and you know, bring back 1:08:04.520 --> 1:08:07.080 the gory some of the most famous holes in the 1:08:07.240 --> 1:08:08.920 in the world of golf course architecture. But I really 1:08:09.040 --> 1:08:11.640 just hope that we've been able to show the members 1:08:12.920 --> 1:08:15.840 what they have and the potential for North Berrick still. 1:08:15.880 --> 1:08:18.200 You know, there's still there's still plenty of bunkers out there. 1:08:18.240 --> 1:08:23.000 We've worked particularly focus was helping Kyle and the Greek 1:08:23.040 --> 1:08:26.320 keeping team on the bigger bunkers that they weren't able 1:08:26.360 --> 1:08:28.679 to really work on themselves. But you know, just to 1:08:28.720 --> 1:08:32.080 recapture the scale of some of those features and just 1:08:32.200 --> 1:08:34.360 you know, just to be able to, you know, just 1:08:34.400 --> 1:08:36.720 show what North Berrick should. You know, there's some, there's 1:08:36.720 --> 1:08:39.120 some and there's still some. There's still plenty some more 1:08:39.160 --> 1:08:42.080 of a low hanging fruit to recapture. Once the ons 1:08:42.120 --> 1:08:44.720 in the club installing new irrigation system, the next couple 1:08:44.720 --> 1:08:47.479 of years. The third Greek, for example, used to be 1:08:48.080 --> 1:08:51.000 used to be massive, used to go tied to the 1:08:51.040 --> 1:08:53.839 wall on the right of that green and back towards 1:08:54.160 --> 1:08:56.720 a bunker short of the green that we've kind of 1:08:56.760 --> 1:09:00.559 just reinstated or restored somewhat that used to connect all 1:09:00.600 --> 1:09:03.720 the way throughout prove to the beach. Believe it or not, 1:09:03.760 --> 1:09:06.840 but we we kind of did a a sensible version 1:09:06.880 --> 1:09:10.120 of that one that kind of went half of the 1:09:10.120 --> 1:09:13.559 way back to the beach and is revetted. But yeah, 1:09:13.560 --> 1:09:16.840 I really really just hope, yeah, that we're well, I'm 1:09:16.840 --> 1:09:20.360 just glad to have you know, shown shown the potential 1:09:20.400 --> 1:09:23.200 of what North Barak should be once again. You know, 1:09:23.240 --> 1:09:26.439 so have got some coastal erosion issues that they're looking 1:09:26.520 --> 1:09:32.559 to deal living and looking for a robust plan, you know, 1:09:33.040 --> 1:09:37.360 conveniency plan really to hopefully address something that no one 1:09:37.880 --> 1:09:40.400 wants to really contemplate, which is, you know, we've been 1:09:40.400 --> 1:09:42.200 a loss of some of the most famous holes in 1:09:42.240 --> 1:09:43.240 Scotland and the world. 1:09:43.400 --> 1:09:46.479 That would be a very difficult architectural project trying to 1:09:46.960 --> 1:09:50.360 you know, if holes get lost or altered, how how 1:09:50.360 --> 1:09:54.000 in the world do you do you design something that 1:09:54.000 --> 1:09:56.760 that can replace it. I would imagine that would be 1:09:56.920 --> 1:09:58.719 a very tricky problem for the club. 1:09:59.000 --> 1:10:01.040 Yeah, yeah, No one who wants to think about losing 1:10:01.080 --> 1:10:03.640 the pit, green, harp, per section, greens or you know, 1:10:04.720 --> 1:10:06.479 you know some of those some of those great those 1:10:06.520 --> 1:10:08.760 great features and holes. But I'm sure, I'm sure it 1:10:08.840 --> 1:10:13.240 will be a sensible, sexible solution from coastal erosion from 1:10:13.280 --> 1:10:14.639 the from the council before them. 1:10:14.680 --> 1:10:17.320 All right, so let's talk about another course that you've 1:10:17.360 --> 1:10:22.040 been working on recently. As I understand it, uh, the event, 1:10:22.200 --> 1:10:24.320 correct me if this is not not the arrangement, but 1:10:24.720 --> 1:10:28.439 I think you're helping Tom Doak or helping Renaissance Golf 1:10:28.439 --> 1:10:32.800 Design implement a master plan at Saint Anadoc Golf Club 1:10:32.840 --> 1:10:36.759 in southwestern England. Of course that people should more people 1:10:36.760 --> 1:10:39.879 should should know about because it just looks it looks amazing. 1:10:41.240 --> 1:10:44.160 Is that the arrangement right now? First of all? And 1:10:44.200 --> 1:10:46.120 then second of all, can you tell me about the 1:10:46.120 --> 1:10:48.759 big project that you completed there recently? 1:10:49.479 --> 1:10:54.519 So say ana doc Golf Club hired Tom to do 1:10:54.680 --> 1:10:57.600 a consulting report in twenty sixteenth I think it was 1:10:57.800 --> 1:11:00.760 the twenty sixteenth, Okay, So I went I went down 1:11:00.800 --> 1:11:03.759 with Tom when we're doing some or we're just planning 1:11:03.760 --> 1:11:07.800 for the work, and his restoration worked at Woodhollspark in Lincolnshire. 1:11:08.760 --> 1:11:12.120 So I headed down with Tom for that consoling visit 1:11:12.200 --> 1:11:15.519 with the idea that i'd help the plumb emplum implement 1:11:15.560 --> 1:11:18.640 that over the next however many years. Yeah, it's one 1:11:18.640 --> 1:11:20.679 of Tom's favorite golf course, is one of my favorite 1:11:20.680 --> 1:11:23.439 golf courses, a golf course that really relies on some 1:11:23.960 --> 1:11:32.120 amazingly diverse and amazingly interesting topography and artificial features within 1:11:32.240 --> 1:11:35.559 the golf course, historically artificial features within the golf course. 1:11:37.080 --> 1:11:42.639 So yeah, really, you know, Tom completed that report twenty sixteen, 1:11:42.680 --> 1:11:45.599 twenty seventeen, club sat on it for a for a while, 1:11:45.800 --> 1:11:51.080 did a little bit of work twenty nineteen and head 1:11:51.080 --> 1:11:53.479 greenkeeper at a time after that, wanted to try and 1:11:53.520 --> 1:11:56.200 implement some of the work himself over the next few years, 1:11:56.200 --> 1:11:59.439 and then that wasn't successful as the club would have liked. 1:11:59.479 --> 1:12:03.439 So since then been you know, back into continue to 1:12:03.479 --> 1:12:08.519 implement more for Tom's ideas really plus some plus some 1:12:08.560 --> 1:12:10.559 of my own where where needed, but trying to say 1:12:10.640 --> 1:12:14.200 as faithful to Tom's report as possible, you know, the 1:12:14.640 --> 1:12:17.960 big the big feature. You know, it's it's that'sn't that's 1:12:17.960 --> 1:12:19.840 that's another. It's such a great golf course. A lot 1:12:19.880 --> 1:12:21.759 of the issues there that they have, like I said earlier, 1:12:21.840 --> 1:12:25.519 are about getting traffic around the golf course. Very popular 1:12:26.160 --> 1:12:32.000 holiday resort, second home village and area for people from 1:12:32.080 --> 1:12:38.160 generally from stereotyping, generally from the southeast, from London. So yeah, 1:12:38.240 --> 1:12:40.519 so you know, the big the big project this year 1:12:40.560 --> 1:12:44.360 was to restore the famous Himalayas Bunker to something of 1:12:44.400 --> 1:12:47.080 its form of law, because it really was a shadow 1:12:47.080 --> 1:12:50.920 of what it used to be in the early nineteen hundreds. 1:12:50.960 --> 1:12:54.240 Okay, so the Himalayas Bunker's bunker. Which hole is it on? 1:12:54.439 --> 1:12:56.840 And could you kind of describe the feature, like the 1:12:57.640 --> 1:13:00.240 landform that it's cut into and the scale of it. 1:13:00.360 --> 1:13:01.840 Just give people a picture of this. 1:13:02.360 --> 1:13:04.280 Yeah, So it's the it's the current it's the current 1:13:04.360 --> 1:13:07.840 day six hole. So you kind of you kind of 1:13:07.840 --> 1:13:14.479 tear off from a high high june platform. You can 1:13:14.560 --> 1:13:17.120 kind of you know, there's about tour and fifty yards 1:13:17.120 --> 1:13:24.639 down the hole as a massive let's call it twenty 1:13:24.720 --> 1:13:28.960 thirty meters high sand dune. I'm useless, I'm useless of 1:13:29.120 --> 1:13:31.599 getting the scale of elevated features like that, but. 1:13:31.560 --> 1:13:36.400 It's it's it's big. Basically, Yeah, if you, if. 1:13:36.240 --> 1:13:37.960 You, if you like, if you, if you're thirty yards 1:13:37.960 --> 1:13:40.599 short of that, you've still got one hundred and eighty 1:13:40.640 --> 1:13:45.120 yards probably ish at least one hundred and fifty into 1:13:45.200 --> 1:13:47.400 the green and you and you're laying back on as 1:13:47.479 --> 1:13:49.160 much club as you think you can get on it 1:13:49.200 --> 1:13:54.000 to get over over this enormous dune that's an exposed 1:13:54.040 --> 1:13:57.880 sand feature. From the tee, you kind of you kind 1:13:57.880 --> 1:13:59.519 of you kind of kind of see the green just 1:13:59.560 --> 1:14:02.240 poking out behind, so you know, you kind of know 1:14:02.280 --> 1:14:03.920 what the task ahead is. But you know there's a 1:14:04.000 --> 1:14:07.000 road that runs down there and some rough and the 1:14:07.080 --> 1:14:10.560 last of that there's a low marshy area. So you 1:14:10.680 --> 1:14:12.519 basically got to you kind of got to hug the 1:14:12.600 --> 1:14:14.600 left side of the fairway as much as possible and 1:14:15.000 --> 1:14:17.479 took the natural topography of the fairway can't take it 1:14:18.120 --> 1:14:21.680 into that position. But you know, it's still he going 1:14:21.760 --> 1:14:24.800 over the toe of that june. It's still plenty to 1:14:24.800 --> 1:14:27.400 think about. It's amazing how many people actually end up 1:14:27.400 --> 1:14:29.400 pretty much if it's the intimidation fact or it's the 1:14:29.760 --> 1:14:32.240 need to get the elevation over the June but end 1:14:32.360 --> 1:14:35.599 up in the in the face of that amazing sound feature. 1:14:35.800 --> 1:14:39.600 So how had the Himalayas Bunker evolved over time? What 1:14:39.640 --> 1:14:42.080 did its earliest version look like? And then what did 1:14:42.120 --> 1:14:44.800 it look like when you and Tom came in and 1:14:45.080 --> 1:14:46.160 started working at the club. 1:14:46.360 --> 1:14:49.080 There's there's actually some there's some great there's some great 1:14:49.120 --> 1:14:51.519 photos in the locker room actually that give the paint 1:14:51.560 --> 1:14:55.200 a pretty good picture of the history and you know, 1:14:55.200 --> 1:14:57.960 a bit like they're's not quite as prevalent as Dane, 1:14:57.960 --> 1:15:00.639 but there's lots of there's lots of historic phogra historical 1:15:00.680 --> 1:15:03.960 photographs out there over time. Because of the nature of 1:15:04.360 --> 1:15:08.920 the feature, it might be maybe great Britain Island's greatest 1:15:09.360 --> 1:15:12.760 links bunker feature. It's certainly the greatest in terms of 1:15:12.800 --> 1:15:15.040 scale of any surviving feature that I can think of. 1:15:16.000 --> 1:15:17.960 But you know, in the in the early nineteen hundreds, 1:15:17.960 --> 1:15:24.759 it was essentially a dune ridge which on the near side, 1:15:24.800 --> 1:15:27.200 on the Tea side of the of the whole was 1:15:27.760 --> 1:15:32.280 evolving sand dune, you know, some of marin clumps. Nature 1:15:32.360 --> 1:15:36.439 was you know, it was it was barely stabilized, kind 1:15:36.479 --> 1:15:40.320 of exposed somewhat to the prevailing wind from the west there, 1:15:40.400 --> 1:15:43.360 but not completely depending you know, if it was flipping 1:15:43.400 --> 1:15:47.160 around to the south or to the north, you know, 1:15:47.240 --> 1:15:51.200 but bye. By nineteen thirty seven, it really evolved to 1:15:51.240 --> 1:15:53.800 the point where the right side of it was kind 1:15:53.840 --> 1:15:56.439 of you know, it was stretching out quite a long way, 1:15:56.479 --> 1:16:00.639 so you know, it's maybe a forty fifty yard plus 1:16:00.680 --> 1:16:03.479 expanse of sand, you know, and went beyond the height 1:16:03.520 --> 1:16:05.479 of the of the buk itself. But that was kind 1:16:05.520 --> 1:16:08.720 of stretching out to the right, and it's kind of 1:16:08.760 --> 1:16:10.840 been started to stabilize on the right and on the 1:16:10.920 --> 1:16:13.040 left side. It certainly appears like there was some kind 1:16:13.120 --> 1:16:18.280 of effort to at least stabilize, you know, the feature, 1:16:18.280 --> 1:16:20.880 because the feature is kind of like a big at 1:16:20.880 --> 1:16:22.760 that point. By the nineteen thirty senn was like a 1:16:22.800 --> 1:16:27.600 big high ball, and then like a flare, you know, 1:16:27.920 --> 1:16:30.519 like a tail that kind of wrapped all the way 1:16:30.560 --> 1:16:35.240 down to ground level and stretched to the toe of 1:16:35.280 --> 1:16:38.840 the dune on the left side. And then you know, 1:16:39.080 --> 1:16:44.400 by the nineteen eighties it really become you know, it 1:16:44.439 --> 1:16:48.400 was really just high ball that was left a sound 1:16:48.439 --> 1:16:52.080 which was still still a pretty still a pretty impressive feature. 1:16:52.320 --> 1:16:55.880 And you know, if you've got Tom Dobe's Confidential Guide, 1:16:55.880 --> 1:16:58.960 the latest or the reading we did were the Great 1:16:58.960 --> 1:17:01.120 Britain Island to kind of kind of looked like that 1:17:01.200 --> 1:17:03.040 was the you know, you know, the painting in the 1:17:03.080 --> 1:17:06.880 front of that book. And then at some point, you know, 1:17:06.920 --> 1:17:11.400 it's no no photographs from the from that period, and 1:17:11.640 --> 1:17:13.559 you know, the committee within the club haven't given me 1:17:13.560 --> 1:17:15.479 a definite avant on this, but at some point there 1:17:15.520 --> 1:17:19.360 was also a pot bunker that was established to where 1:17:19.400 --> 1:17:22.680 the tail on the left used to go. You know, 1:17:22.760 --> 1:17:25.760 so there's a really puny little poplunker on the left, 1:17:25.760 --> 1:17:29.439 this enormous expanse of sand on the high side, which 1:17:29.479 --> 1:17:33.960 was kind of a really weird juxtaposition, and then you know, 1:17:34.479 --> 1:17:38.080 in the late twenty in the late twenty tens, that 1:17:38.280 --> 1:17:40.320 was filled in, so we're kind of back just to 1:17:40.640 --> 1:17:44.840 or you know, left with this high, high expanse of sand, 1:17:44.920 --> 1:17:48.720 but you know, nothing, you know, a really poor reflection 1:17:49.000 --> 1:17:53.679 on what feature used to be. The greenkeeping team over 1:17:53.720 --> 1:17:56.160 the last ten to fifteen years had tried tried really 1:17:56.200 --> 1:18:00.880 hard to contain the sand at the top, so they'd 1:18:01.000 --> 1:18:03.360 use chicken wire to hold that in which was you know, 1:18:03.600 --> 1:18:06.599 was saidible the sand didn't quite climb as high as 1:18:06.640 --> 1:18:08.240 it used to be, maybe a couple of meters down 1:18:08.280 --> 1:18:11.519 from from the very top. But yeah, it was a 1:18:11.640 --> 1:18:15.280 it was a that was a sensible solution to at 1:18:15.360 --> 1:18:17.320 least the top edge. But you know, the tail in 1:18:17.400 --> 1:18:20.080 the lower half of the bunker were completely lost. 1:18:20.360 --> 1:18:24.519 So what did you end up restoring or building there 1:18:24.600 --> 1:18:25.360 on this feature? 1:18:25.600 --> 1:18:27.479 You know, so on so one of the rigs. So there's 1:18:27.479 --> 1:18:32.120 probably two reasons for two reasons for why the bunker 1:18:32.840 --> 1:18:36.479 had been allowed to get to that state. One was 1:18:36.479 --> 1:18:38.559 foot traffic. You know, all the foot traffic had to 1:18:38.600 --> 1:18:42.479 go round the tail of the bunker on the left 1:18:42.520 --> 1:18:44.960 to get to get towards the appafeat of Green and 1:18:45.439 --> 1:18:47.439 there was a bowl shot that's that made you know, 1:18:47.560 --> 1:18:50.240 that made traffic really squog. You know, there's there was 1:18:50.240 --> 1:18:52.800 a dune on there was a dune that flag the 1:18:52.880 --> 1:18:57.160 left of the fairway that tied in too, uh, tied 1:18:57.160 --> 1:19:00.000 into the near side of that feature, so really new 1:19:00.160 --> 1:19:03.680 like a five ten yard wide piece of space that 1:19:03.960 --> 1:19:06.560 near enough every golfer had to channel through. So that 1:19:06.680 --> 1:19:08.080 was a problem and it was you know, it was 1:19:08.120 --> 1:19:10.439 also you know because of the depth of that bowl 1:19:11.240 --> 1:19:13.160 short of where the tail of the bug he used 1:19:13.160 --> 1:19:17.679 to go. Also, you know maybe six seven eight feet 1:19:17.720 --> 1:19:22.360 deep made it really difficult for the lady golfers. That's 1:19:22.479 --> 1:19:25.960 really really lazily say, it's the lazy golfers that are struggling. 1:19:25.960 --> 1:19:29.840 But the weaker golfer to to play, to play around, 1:19:30.479 --> 1:19:32.040 you know, to lay up into that space, and it 1:19:32.160 --> 1:19:36.479 was it wasn't a great shot from there. So you know, 1:19:36.840 --> 1:19:40.120 my solution was to take off take off the backside 1:19:40.160 --> 1:19:42.240 of that dune on the fairway. He used that material 1:19:42.280 --> 1:19:44.599 to raise the bowl to give the give the weaker 1:19:44.640 --> 1:19:48.200 player a little bit of a flatter space to lay 1:19:48.280 --> 1:19:50.880 up to, you know, if you if you can't get 1:19:50.880 --> 1:19:56.960 around the feature into while also creating some more space 1:19:57.040 --> 1:19:59.160 for the walk for the golfers to get around. So 1:19:59.280 --> 1:20:01.800 that space and twenty thirty yards, but you know it 1:20:01.800 --> 1:20:03.640 would look exactly the same from the fairway and the 1:20:03.640 --> 1:20:06.599 teas it did before because it was all the blindside. Yeah, 1:20:06.640 --> 1:20:08.640 and that gave us, that gave the opportunity in the 1:20:08.680 --> 1:20:13.719 space to then recapture the full tail of the bunker 1:20:13.880 --> 1:20:17.360 looks maybe extending twenty yards down to the left like 1:20:17.400 --> 1:20:19.360 it did in nineteen thirty seven. We had to get 1:20:19.400 --> 1:20:23.280 the practicalities right to be able to sell the cool 1:20:23.320 --> 1:20:25.680 part of the job, if that makes sense. So the 1:20:25.680 --> 1:20:28.599 cool part of the job is obviously seeing that bunk 1:20:28.680 --> 1:20:31.080 look as great as it used to. But if it didn't, 1:20:31.240 --> 1:20:33.760 if it didn't work, the question would be how to 1:20:33.880 --> 1:20:35.479 play this? Why we did this right? 1:20:35.840 --> 1:20:38.519 Function and artistry had to had to be matched, and 1:20:38.880 --> 1:20:40.640 you know, I would I would advise that people go 1:20:40.720 --> 1:20:44.240 to Clyde's Instagram account and take a look at the 1:20:45.320 --> 1:20:49.240 at the bunker that Clyde produced out of this process. 1:20:49.360 --> 1:20:54.320 It is really interesting looking and obviously much better looking 1:20:54.400 --> 1:20:58.320 than than what they what they had before, but also 1:20:58.360 --> 1:21:00.760 from the sounds of it, you know, serves the kind 1:21:00.760 --> 1:21:04.840 of functional needs of the golf course. And I think 1:21:04.880 --> 1:21:06.840 this is kind of a representative story in a lot 1:21:06.840 --> 1:21:11.120 of ways, because a lot of bunkers at British Links 1:21:11.200 --> 1:21:14.960 courses have evolved in this way over time. As the 1:21:15.000 --> 1:21:19.800 courses became more settled and more used. What were these 1:21:20.920 --> 1:21:26.040 initially very wild gouges of sand in the Lynx Land 1:21:26.640 --> 1:21:31.599 kind of turn into smaller and more formalized shapes, and 1:21:31.640 --> 1:21:33.519 now we see an awful lot of just like straight 1:21:33.600 --> 1:21:38.479 up circular pop bunkers with rivetted walls, and that's a 1:21:38.560 --> 1:21:41.400 very common look at Scottish links courses. But if you 1:21:41.400 --> 1:21:45.080 looked at these same courses in nineteen hundred, obviously you 1:21:45.080 --> 1:21:49.439 would have much much more kind of random sand shapes 1:21:49.439 --> 1:21:52.640 on these courses. And so, you know, I guess the 1:21:52.720 --> 1:21:55.760 question is when you bring back a kind of more 1:21:55.840 --> 1:21:58.720 intricate shape for a bunker like you did at sant 1:21:58.760 --> 1:22:02.400 Anadoc here, is there some kind of assurance that this 1:22:02.479 --> 1:22:04.840 is going to last, that this is going to be maintainable. 1:22:06.360 --> 1:22:09.120 We're certainly very pragmatic in terms of the upper section 1:22:09.120 --> 1:22:10.400 of the bunk, and you know, we didn't want to 1:22:10.479 --> 1:22:14.840 didn't want to really disturb the stabilize efforts that had 1:22:14.880 --> 1:22:17.000 gone before. And you know, it was kind of a 1:22:17.040 --> 1:22:19.479 shoulder on the left that could have that we could 1:22:19.520 --> 1:22:22.000 have opened up. It would have looked cool and made 1:22:22.040 --> 1:22:24.679 the bunk look exactly like it did on old photographs. 1:22:24.720 --> 1:22:27.240 But that was that was doing a that was doing 1:22:27.240 --> 1:22:29.439 a product, that was that was doing the job of 1:22:29.520 --> 1:22:32.080 you making the bunk. The upper section of the bowl 1:22:32.080 --> 1:22:35.200 really sam swirl around route that blows straight out. So 1:22:35.600 --> 1:22:37.320 I think, you know, that's part you know, that comes 1:22:37.320 --> 1:22:39.519 from experience of just being able to well leaning on 1:22:39.520 --> 1:22:41.719 the experience of the green keeping team that you're working 1:22:41.760 --> 1:22:44.120 with ball, so the experience of being able to read 1:22:44.160 --> 1:22:48.599 and understand Link's features and how things evolved in nature. 1:22:48.840 --> 1:22:55.000 But you know, the perception, you know, the tailor the 1:22:55.040 --> 1:22:58.200 tail of that book actually sits relatively low down the 1:22:58.240 --> 1:23:00.920 face of the dune, so we can be what can 1:23:00.960 --> 1:23:06.439 be more confident that the bunker is going to be 1:23:06.560 --> 1:23:10.120 more sheltered and not blow out as quickly or you know, 1:23:10.280 --> 1:23:13.160 a road. But you know, there's also there also needs 1:23:13.160 --> 1:23:15.360 to be you know, there's there's you know, there's also 1:23:15.400 --> 1:23:19.040 an awareness as well that there's no no bunker is 1:23:19.120 --> 1:23:22.559 ever maintenance free, you know, so we we we've we've 1:23:22.640 --> 1:23:26.280 left a we've left a small RAVET four three fourth 1:23:26.560 --> 1:23:29.720 vet high step on the leaning edge just to stabilize 1:23:29.720 --> 1:23:34.439 that and you know, to stop that collapsing and going 1:23:34.479 --> 1:23:37.200 away really quickly with time. And then I think, you know, 1:23:37.320 --> 1:23:39.599 I think there's an understanding that if you know, if 1:23:39.640 --> 1:23:42.400 the bunker, if it does, if the newly cut bunker 1:23:42.560 --> 1:23:46.040 does start the road in an odd place, then there's 1:23:46.040 --> 1:23:48.800 nothing wrong with having to stabilize that with a couple 1:23:48.800 --> 1:23:50.840 of rows of revet, and you know, like they did 1:23:51.520 --> 1:23:53.559 in the in the turn of the cential, the early 1:23:53.640 --> 1:23:58.840 Unite hundreds, where it's just really practical, you know, just 1:23:58.880 --> 1:24:01.960 like the bunker roading care. Let's let's short that up 1:24:02.040 --> 1:24:05.639 with sleepers or throw some turf down and look cool, 1:24:05.720 --> 1:24:06.559 it's quite cool. 1:24:07.680 --> 1:24:09.680 I want to widen out the lens a little bit 1:24:09.760 --> 1:24:12.320 here and just talk about kind of what's going on 1:24:12.439 --> 1:24:16.800 in the British golf industry and British golf course renovation 1:24:16.880 --> 1:24:20.680 and restoration in general. You know, my understanding is that 1:24:20.720 --> 1:24:24.679 a lot of links clubs, including North Beric and Saint Enodoc, 1:24:25.560 --> 1:24:29.479 have historically not had the kind of financial wherewithal to 1:24:29.560 --> 1:24:35.439 do big, ambitious restoration and renovation projects. Would you say 1:24:35.479 --> 1:24:37.599 that's that's changing right now? 1:24:39.520 --> 1:24:43.880 I think I think certainly. I think certainly the top 1:24:43.960 --> 1:24:48.519 end golf courses is definitely. I don't I don't know 1:24:48.560 --> 1:24:51.240 if it's partly there's more of an appreciation for golf 1:24:51.280 --> 1:24:56.679 course architecture in the UK these days are great Britain 1:24:56.680 --> 1:24:59.360 Island these days, you know, you know, has gonna be 1:24:59.400 --> 1:25:03.040 really easy to ero type. But outside I mean even 1:25:03.080 --> 1:25:04.720 the very best golf course. It would just be like 1:25:05.320 --> 1:25:08.559 committee would decide what was what would what what should 1:25:08.560 --> 1:25:11.519 be done. The head green keeper would be responsible for 1:25:11.560 --> 1:25:15.760 implementing it. But then job, job's done, really and I mean, 1:25:15.880 --> 1:25:18.240 and that's part that's partly why golf courses was so 1:25:18.280 --> 1:25:21.640 well preserved from the nineteen thirties until the court of 1:25:21.680 --> 1:25:23.800 let's say the two thousands on the twenty tens, was 1:25:23.840 --> 1:25:29.439 because because of that attitude, and you know, so you know, 1:25:29.439 --> 1:25:33.280 there's definitely, know, there's definitely there's definitely much more work 1:25:33.439 --> 1:25:38.240 being done now to golf courses. Whether that needs to 1:25:38.280 --> 1:25:40.840 be done, whether as much needs to be done has 1:25:41.000 --> 1:25:43.759 been done, This is is really up to personal taste 1:25:43.760 --> 1:25:45.479 and personal preference. 1:25:45.960 --> 1:25:49.679 Royal Dornick, Higher, King Collins, Dormer. We've seen North Berrick 1:25:49.720 --> 1:25:54.200 obviously higher gil Hands. We've seen englansh Inland English clubs 1:25:54.200 --> 1:25:58.120 start to start to do some more projects as well. 1:25:58.280 --> 1:26:01.679 You know, when when you think of shifting from the 1:26:01.760 --> 1:26:04.559 old approach that you're talking about the kind of more 1:26:04.800 --> 1:26:09.960 preservation focused approach or just you know almost kind of 1:26:10.000 --> 1:26:13.400 like hands off, let's deal with this in house and 1:26:13.400 --> 1:26:18.000 and just maintain the golf course. If there if there 1:26:18.040 --> 1:26:21.680 is a shift from that to maybe something else, do 1:26:21.720 --> 1:26:23.599 you think there are any dangers that come along with. 1:26:23.560 --> 1:26:34.880 That wink skulls specifically, I think it's I think it's 1:26:34.920 --> 1:26:39.679 really important to have great understanding of link skulls when 1:26:39.760 --> 1:26:45.120 you're working on golf courses because you know, really the most, 1:26:45.160 --> 1:26:47.200 really the most important part of a links golf course 1:26:47.280 --> 1:26:50.160 is that you know certainly when they play, they don't pray. 1:26:50.320 --> 1:26:52.680 Golf courses could be regage systems don't play quite as 1:26:52.720 --> 1:26:54.479 firm and as fast as perhaps used to, but still 1:26:54.479 --> 1:26:58.240 that that's thirty yards in front of the green also 1:26:58.520 --> 1:27:00.240 is just as important, you know, for the average golf 1:27:00.240 --> 1:27:01.920 for certainly maybe not the best player in the world, 1:27:02.000 --> 1:27:07.040 but the average golf that that's really where the most 1:27:07.080 --> 1:27:09.639 interest or most important lies, because that's kind of where 1:27:09.640 --> 1:27:13.240 you thinking about lagging you ball, you know, in you know, 1:27:13.479 --> 1:27:17.599 depending on wind conditions, and then also also being able 1:27:17.640 --> 1:27:21.760 to read you know, and understand how much the wind 1:27:22.400 --> 1:27:25.639 can change and how strong it can blow, and how 1:27:26.160 --> 1:27:30.360 you know you know you might see a bunker that 1:27:30.479 --> 1:27:34.439 you might drive past or not even give consideration to. 1:27:34.840 --> 1:27:36.680 Ninety nine times out one hundred times you played the 1:27:36.720 --> 1:27:39.040 golf course in one day, the wind's doing something. I 1:27:39.040 --> 1:27:40.880 didn't realize that bunker was there, but it was actually 1:27:40.960 --> 1:27:43.120 really in a great place and there's kind of a 1:27:43.120 --> 1:27:49.120 reason for that. And you know, understanding understanding that the 1:27:49.200 --> 1:27:53.320 vagaries of links golf, and yeah, the importance of the 1:27:53.360 --> 1:27:56.280 shapes around the greens and how they impact recovery shots 1:27:56.320 --> 1:27:59.120 into the greens that I think is is probably an 1:27:59.120 --> 1:28:01.879 acquiet taste, not that it can't be learned by people 1:28:01.960 --> 1:28:05.760 that haven't spent as which time around links golf, but yeah, 1:28:05.760 --> 1:28:07.840 I think I think that I think that's important and 1:28:08.040 --> 1:28:11.559 just an understanding of, yeah, the evolution that golf courses 1:28:11.840 --> 1:28:13.960 have been on in Great Britain over the last hundred 1:28:14.080 --> 1:28:17.519 years and why, you know, understanding why golf course are 1:28:17.560 --> 1:28:21.759 involved in knowing when knowing when to trust the past 1:28:23.280 --> 1:28:25.120 or when you can take you know, where you can 1:28:25.200 --> 1:28:30.360 think about bringing or you know, introducing new ideas or 1:28:30.400 --> 1:28:34.599 bringing old ideas into the new. Yeah, it's just it's 1:28:35.000 --> 1:28:36.759 that experience I think is really valuable. 1:28:36.920 --> 1:28:38.720 All Right, Well, Clyde, thank you so much for coming 1:28:38.760 --> 1:28:40.640 on the podcast. It's been fun talking to you and 1:28:40.960 --> 1:28:43.080 uh and good luck with your with your future work. 1:28:43.800 --> 1:28:44.920 Thank you it was a pleasure. 1:28:51.320 --> 1:28:55.160 This episode of Designing Golf was produced by Will Balsam. 1:28:55.479 --> 1:28:59.840 Thank you Will. The holiday season is approaching and you 1:29:00.080 --> 1:29:03.759 I consider giving the gift of Frida Egg Golf Club. 1:29:03.880 --> 1:29:07.080 Go to the Frida Egg dot com slash membership to 1:29:07.120 --> 1:29:09.920 see what fridagg Golf Club is all about. 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