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Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Math and Magic. I'm Bob Pittman. On this show,

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Speaker 2: we've talked about the power of a compelling story, how

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Speaker 2: data driven technology can help businesses stay agile, and of course,

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Speaker 2: the beauty that results from the intersection of those concepts.

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Speaker 2: The Math and Magic. In today's bonus episode, I'm want

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Speaker 2: to focus on something a little different, corporate culture.

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Speaker 3: The term corporate.

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Speaker 2: Culture became popular in the nineteen eighties and has resurfaced

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Speaker 2: a lot following the pandemic. I look at it as values, beliefs,

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Speaker 2: and behaviors that shape a work environment. Simply put, it's

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Speaker 2: the personality of a company that at its best increases morale,

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Speaker 2: drives innovation, and leads to employee retention. My guests today

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Speaker 2: stand out in their ability to create and maintain a

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Speaker 2: strong corporate culture. Take Bill Koeningsberg. Bill is the founder

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Speaker 2: and CEO of Horizon Media and Average Sizing, a marketing

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Speaker 2: firm that's been named one of ad Age's Best places

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Speaker 2: to work. His advice build a culture where business is personal.

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Speaker 4: Being a CEO and an owner, I think bears an enormous,

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Speaker 4: bigger responsibility because there is no one else to blame.

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Speaker 4: You can't blame the shareholders, you can't blame the stock market.

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Speaker 4: I have the responsibility of not just twenty five hundred employees,

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Speaker 4: but their families and their kids. You know, I feel

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Speaker 4: I have the responsibility for five to ten thousand people.

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Speaker 4: It's taught me about having a responsibility to everyone.

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Speaker 2: You are not only a great manager, entrepreneur, business owner,

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Speaker 2: but you're also a professional. I mean, you understand media

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Speaker 2: and media buying. You're not some manager managing those professionals.

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Speaker 2: What happens when you have one of your really great

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Speaker 2: people at one point of view and you have another

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Speaker 2: and you've got all the votes and they've got one vote?

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Speaker 2: Maybe how do you deal with it? That's why I

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Speaker 2: love sparring. I'm saying that endearingly. I want people that

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Speaker 2: are going to make me feel uncomfortable. One of my

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Speaker 2: mantras around the agency is that I'm not feeling uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: enough these days. I am flexible, and I'm teachable, and

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Speaker 2: I am bendable. And if you ever get to a

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Speaker 2: point where you don't think you're teachable, you're in trouble.

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Speaker 2: And if you ever get to a point where you

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Speaker 2: think you arrived, you're going to get run over. And

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Speaker 2: I want to hire the smartest people around me who

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Speaker 2: can make me smarter and make me think differently. I

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Speaker 2: stand very strong on my opinions, and if someone is

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Speaker 2: strong enough to convince me that I'm wrong, I will

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Speaker 2: absolutely change what they have to convent you. You're not

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Speaker 2: going to roll over and say we let you do

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Speaker 2: the wrong thing.

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Speaker 1: To let you do it.

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Speaker 4: And as a leader, and you know this, Bob, sometimes

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Speaker 4: because you have such a big rearview mirror and you've

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Speaker 4: seen every single problem, you will make a decision just

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Speaker 4: based on that experience quickly and firmly, before someone has

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Speaker 4: an opportunity to tell you their different point of view.

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Speaker 4: And I try to be very sensitive to that. Even

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Speaker 4: though I think I know the answer going in you

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Speaker 4: still you will have to open up your mind. I

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Speaker 4: was in a meeting two days ago that I was

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Speaker 4: not very happy about because someone was making me feel

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Speaker 4: very uncomfortable with what they were presenting to me. And

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Speaker 4: then I had to remember I had asked my people

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Speaker 4: to make me feel uncomfortable, and I had to say,

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Speaker 4: you know what, even though this is a surprise to

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Speaker 4: me and even though you're asking this from me, it's

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Speaker 4: making me feel really uncomfortable, and that's what I've asked

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Speaker 4: you to do. I appreciate you doing that, and I'm

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Speaker 4: going to trust you.

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Speaker 2: We talked about culture and overused word, but in your place,

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Speaker 2: I know your company and I've walked through your space.

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Speaker 2: You really do live the culture. How do you define

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Speaker 2: the culture?

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Speaker 4: Work and outside of work are becoming intermingled together in

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Speaker 4: today's twenty four to seven world. So we believe in

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Speaker 4: what we call the third bucket. You get your salary,

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Speaker 4: a bunch of people get bonuses, and we probably have

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Speaker 4: over one hundred different extracurricular activities that fall into the

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Speaker 4: third bucket. That's about traveling to a foreign country and

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Speaker 4: helping people who are less privileged than you are. It's

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Speaker 4: about building homes in different places. It's about a limitless

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Speaker 4: advancement program for women. It's about Upstart You and entrepreneurial

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Speaker 4: program for people who want to start their own businesses.

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Speaker 4: It's about having six or seven different diversity and inclusion

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Speaker 4: groups within my organization who can meet as a community.

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Speaker 4: It's about treating our people with respect. It's about giving

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Speaker 4: people a voice. It's about giving back. We built that

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Speaker 4: culture over the last thirty years, and that culture is

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Speaker 4: the heartbeat of our company.

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Speaker 2: So tell us a little bit, because I know what

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Speaker 2: relates to your culture about your physical space, the physical

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Speaker 2: work space you have for those people who have not

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Speaker 2: seen it, such special space with this great outdoor rooftop.

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Speaker 2: Talk a little bit about how you imagined that space

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Speaker 2: and what you intended for to do for the company.

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Speaker 4: Early on in my journey, I was worried about survival,

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Speaker 4: but I couldn't afford it a great work environment. I

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Speaker 4: actually didn't think it was important, believe it or not.

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Speaker 4: In two thousand and eight. In two thousand and nine,

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Speaker 4: when the world started to fall apart, my leases were

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Speaker 4: coming up, and I was in four buildings in New

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Speaker 4: York City, and I started to feel that environment started

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Speaker 4: to mean a hell of a lot more to people

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Speaker 4: and how people wanted to work from a community perspective.

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Speaker 4: I could have renewed my leases in three or four

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Speaker 4: different buildings in the city, and we decided to look

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Speaker 4: around and we found this amazing, beautiful old building. But

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Speaker 4: then I got the price tag of what it was

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Speaker 4: going to cost to completely renovate and build the office

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Speaker 4: of the future. It was a thirty million dollar investment,

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Speaker 4: and I decided to take the plunge. That was another

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Speaker 4: big fork in the road, and we built out offices

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Speaker 4: with beautiful terraces and a theater and a health center

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Speaker 4: and a big gym and a yoga studio, in sleep

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Speaker 4: pods and meditation rooms. That's the environment that we created.

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Speaker 4: And I have to tell you, Bob, it paid off

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Speaker 4: tenfold from a retention perspective, from a new business perspective,

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Speaker 4: from attracting new employees into our space, to someone like

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Speaker 4: Taylor Swift wanting to do a concert up there, to

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Speaker 4: film companies left and right coming in and wanting to

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Speaker 4: film in our space, commercial production in our space. It

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Speaker 4: was one of the best decisions I ever made. And

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Speaker 4: the thought process all along was to build a home,

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Speaker 4: not an office, but to build a home. And I

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Speaker 4: think that's what it's become.

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Speaker 5: Like.

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Speaker 2: Bill Christian Jewel knows a thing or two about motivating

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Speaker 2: his employees. During his time as global CEO of the

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Speaker 2: media investment company Group In, Christian oversaw thirty five thousand

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Speaker 2: employees worldwide. Before he moved to Group M, he worked

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Speaker 2: at companies like Microsoft and Publicists, but it was at

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Speaker 2: Essence that he learned a lesson about corporate culture that

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Speaker 2: he carries with him today.

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Speaker 6: Going into run Essence, which the time is about three

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Speaker 6: hundred people, really shaped my view on culture and the

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Speaker 6: power of culture as a true economic differentiator for a business.

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Speaker 6: Tell then people talk about culture. They put mission revision

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Speaker 6: on the walls and you see him around your office

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Speaker 6: and okay, great. But the very first management meeting I

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Speaker 6: had with the three founders of Essence, we run it

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Speaker 6: out of the little room and soho offts in New York.

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Speaker 6: And I was already for the job. I started as

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Speaker 6: a us CEO only, so I built these plans and

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Speaker 6: growth targets and key accounts and management team structures and

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Speaker 6: what we were going to do and technology implementations. And

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Speaker 6: I walk into this room and they're already there, and

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Speaker 6: there are four chairs facing each other with no table

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Speaker 6: in between, no screens, a little coffee bar, and Matt Isaac's,

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Speaker 6: who was the SEEO at the times, has had a seat.

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Speaker 6: And before you can even really the same name, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 6: ready to show you guys what I think the North American.

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Speaker 3: Plan should be.

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Speaker 6: And he goes, no, no, no, We've got three hours just

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Speaker 6: to talk about how you're doing what we think this

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Speaker 6: thing might look like and feel like over time.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever done that.

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Speaker 6: Really, just sit there with no table in a square

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Speaker 6: with four people that you don't really know that well

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Speaker 6: while you're trying to oppress them about your knowledge of

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Speaker 6: the business or what have you.

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Speaker 3: But it's extremely uncomfortable.

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Speaker 6: There's no barriers, and there was no preconceived notion, and

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Speaker 6: we sat there and sort of hashed out an understanding

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Speaker 6: of what essence was and how we wanted to treat

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Speaker 6: each other as a management team, and how we wanted

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Speaker 6: that to show up in our people. And I sum

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Speaker 6: it up now and I've brought it to group them

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Speaker 6: as well. It's assuming positive intent at every turn, and

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Speaker 6: I want every day to group them to feel like

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Speaker 6: this is the place where their expression is welcome, or

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Speaker 6: creative ideas are welcome, where they can disagree with management,

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Speaker 6: where they can speak up, and where they're trusted, and

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Speaker 6: where it's an environment of positive intent.

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Speaker 2: When you took over, you flew something like over two

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand miles to meet people all across group in

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Speaker 2: Were you doing those kinds of meetings like you did

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Speaker 2: with the founders of Essence, where you just sat and

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Speaker 2: talked as opposed to show me your presentation.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I had an odd entrance point into Group them, right,

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Speaker 6: we sold Essence into it. So I was a earnout CEO,

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Speaker 6: So I was sort of a witness to the management

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Speaker 6: team for three years. When I took over the job

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Speaker 6: about three years ago. Now, one of the first things

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Speaker 6: I did was just get the manager team together, and

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Speaker 6: I said, we're going to do things differently. We're going

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Speaker 6: to trust each other, We're going to listen to each other.

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Speaker 6: We're going to build a strategy together, and we're going

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Speaker 6: to share that strategy with all thirty five thousand employees

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Speaker 6: so that they know what the purpose of Group M is,

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Speaker 6: what the purpose of the agencies are, how we can

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Speaker 6: count in our technology division. Up until that point, Group

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Speaker 6: M was a collection of companies in so trying to

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Speaker 6: sit down and talk about the future of this industry.

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Speaker 6: And media is becoming technology driven. It looks more like

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Speaker 6: software than it looks like manual planning, and in media deals,

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Speaker 6: we're going to get really good in automation and understanding technology,

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Speaker 6: and that means investing hundreds and minds of dollars in

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Speaker 6: doing it once, not doing it in sixty different methods

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Speaker 6: with different partners in every market around the world. And

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Speaker 6: getting people aligned to that type of thinking requires a

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Speaker 6: singularity of culture and understanding of how we're going to

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Speaker 6: hold each other to account.

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Speaker 2: It was essential for Christian to establish lined culture throughout

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Speaker 2: his organization, but of course there's more than one way

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Speaker 2: to approach company culture today. Norm degrev is the CMO

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Speaker 2: of General Motors. When I spoke with him on Mathemagic,

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Speaker 2: he was CMO at CVS and shared a different vision

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Speaker 2: for getting thousands of employees.

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Speaker 7: On the same page, we talk about purpose a lot

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Speaker 7: related to will it help you sell more products? The

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Speaker 7: big surprise is how much it's helped in recruiting. How

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Speaker 7: much people want to be part of that. They want

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Speaker 7: to be part of something that is making a difference

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Speaker 7: in the world. They want to participate in that.

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Speaker 2: At all levels. At all levels, you've got is it

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Speaker 2: two hundred thousand employees now three three hundred thousand? How

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Speaker 2: do you market your mission internally? I mean, you've got

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Speaker 2: this fantastic story now, but as you just talked about marketing,

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Speaker 2: they're not going to learn it themselves. Somebody's got to

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Speaker 2: help them. How do you do it?

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Speaker 7: It's got to be in everything to do. So if

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Speaker 7: you go to our website or you do anything to

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Speaker 7: learn about CVS, you are going to see the purpose

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Speaker 7: right away, and you're going to hear about the actions

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Speaker 7: that we're taking about our desire to have a meaningful

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Speaker 7: difference and impact in the world. Then when you come

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Speaker 7: in from the first day, we've restructured everything. The onboarding

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Speaker 7: is that way. All of our executive meetings are that way.

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Speaker 7: You hear about this again and again and again, and

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Speaker 7: it comes into the culture, and then those people when

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Speaker 7: they're talking to others, they use the same words. It

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Speaker 7: is really amazing to me in some ways what a

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Speaker 7: brand for a company was to consumers in a way

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Speaker 7: a purposes to employees and recruiting. You know, I could

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Speaker 7: go work lots of places, but this one feels a

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Speaker 7: little different and a little better because it's got that purpose.

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Speaker 7: I could buy lots of things, but this one feels

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Speaker 7: a little different and better because it's got a brand.

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Speaker 2: Do you do an internal telecast, podcast, town hall meeting?

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Speaker 2: What are your techniques to get it out?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 7: So the challenge that we have is the dispersion of

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Speaker 7: our employees. We have ten thousand locations. You know, Disney's

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Speaker 7: an amazing company, but they have two locations, and so

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Speaker 7: what they can do in two locations is just fundamentally

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Speaker 7: different than what we can do in ten.

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Speaker 2: Thous one hundred and fifty eight locations. Than we thought

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Speaker 2: we had a lot, I'm suddenly feeling very small, and so.

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Speaker 7: You appreciate though, the problem of how do you get

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Speaker 7: everybody to think the same way and be on the

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Speaker 7: same page. We've done podcasting to all the employee base,

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Speaker 7: We've done video blogs. We are changing everything in our

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Speaker 7: stores so that in set of the standard communications that

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Speaker 7: come down that are quite dry, they'll pick up a

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Speaker 7: device of the moment they come in, and that device

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Speaker 7: will be preloaded with stuff that's more site sound in

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Speaker 7: motion for them to understand what we're all about. And

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Speaker 7: then there's the kind of the standard big town halls

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Speaker 7: and stuff like that. General Stan McCrystal came in to

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Speaker 7: talk to us. At one point he ran Jaysak in

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Speaker 7: the Middle East with special Forces, but he was talking

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Speaker 7: about how they were structured in a very hierarchical way,

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Speaker 7: exactly the way he should be to win a war traditionally,

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Speaker 7: and they were fighting an army that was structured in

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Speaker 7: a very dispersed sort of way, and they had to

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Speaker 7: change everything they did. And I still remember that because

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Speaker 7: that's exactly what we are. We're so dispersed, so you

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Speaker 7: can't really operate in a hierarchical way if you want

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Speaker 7: them to change. And this is where again you get

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Speaker 7: back to purpose. You have to know the why, and

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Speaker 7: they have to know the why, and then you have

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Speaker 7: to trust their judgment to make the right decisions in

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Speaker 7: each of those locations.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a quick break. Welcome back

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Speaker 2: to today's bonus episode of Math and Magic. About a year

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Speaker 2: after I started this podcast, the world as we know

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Speaker 2: it changed. COVID nineteen forced everyone from the biggest Fortune

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Speaker 2: five hundred company to the smallest mom and pop to

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Speaker 2: rethink their business strategy. Times like that can deal a

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Speaker 2: major blow to company culture. There's so much uncertainty, but

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Speaker 2: there's also opportunity at iHeart. COVID opened up new ways

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Speaker 2: to connect with local communities, a chance to use radio

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Speaker 2: and podcasting to make people feel less alone, and unprecedented

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Speaker 2: growth in the audio space. For my next guest. The

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Speaker 2: pandemic provided an opportunity to overhaul corporate culture. Today, Remy

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Speaker 2: Kent is the CMO Atrest of Insurance. In twenty twenty,

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Speaker 2: she was just starting as the global Chief Marketing Officer

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Speaker 2: Threems Consumer Business Group, task with marketing three MS life

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Speaker 2: saving products. At the height of the global pandemic.

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Speaker 5: All of us were handling work and home and everything

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Speaker 5: was melting together.

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Speaker 3: People were scared.

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Speaker 5: I think people were going through dramatic changes dependent upon

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Speaker 5: what their home lives were. A lot of my people

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Speaker 5: have young kids that they had to manage, and so

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Speaker 5: my leadership style, I would say, I consider myself a

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Speaker 5: human centered leader.

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Speaker 3: I had to really really.

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Speaker 5: Make sure that I showed up that way, and that

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Speaker 5: was making myself more accessible. I tried to be as

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Speaker 5: clear as possible. I tried to remove busy work or

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Speaker 5: excess work that was focused.

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Speaker 3: I tried to just have real.

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Speaker 5: Conversations with people and check in and let them know.

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Speaker 3: That it was okay not to be okay and be relatable.

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Speaker 5: That was really important, and so I think that's how

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Speaker 5: my leadership shifted. I think people started to know more

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Speaker 5: about me, and I started to know more about others.

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Speaker 2: I think all of us suddenly found ourselves as a

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Speaker 2: work from home company, which most of us never imagined

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Speaker 2: we would do. What surprised you about it?

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Speaker 5: What surprised me the most was that for me, my

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Speaker 5: humanity came out more than ever through the pandemic. And

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Speaker 5: maybe it was the combination of COVID, but also what

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Speaker 5: was happening with George Floyd and kind of the awakening

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Speaker 5: that the world was having to racism. I think I

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Speaker 5: was more myself than I had ever been and bringing

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Speaker 5: my full self to work.

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Speaker 2: Do you think as a leader that you felt before

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Speaker 2: this pandemic that you had to sort of suppress your humanity,

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Speaker 2: put a face on it, put a mask on, and

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Speaker 2: that somehow the pandemic changed that.

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Speaker 3: I think what.

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Speaker 5: The pandemic did was, of course, when there is something

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Speaker 5: that is a threat to you or your family or

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Speaker 5: your well being, you really think about what's important.

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Speaker 3: And for me, love is important.

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Speaker 5: People are important, and so that's what brought that to

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Speaker 5: the forefront for me. And I just think that as

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Speaker 5: I've matured as a leader, I know that to be

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Speaker 5: most effective in the magic that I bring to my work,

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Speaker 5: the more I can be more human, be more myself,

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Speaker 5: accept the good and the flaws, and fully embrace myself

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Speaker 5: and others. Just the better work I do and the

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Speaker 5: more high performance teams I built.

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Speaker 2: You talked about George Floyd earlier, the other big major

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Speaker 2: event of twenty twenty, all of America really came face

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Speaker 2: to face with the issue of racial injustice. You're a

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Speaker 2: black woman in a major American corporation. How did you

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Speaker 2: use your position at three M to make a difference

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Speaker 2: and how did it affect you?

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Speaker 5: This has been interesting and frankly continues to be an

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Speaker 5: interesting daily challenge.

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Speaker 3: So your question about how did I use my position?

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Speaker 3: Number one?

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Speaker 5: I think I have a responsibility as a black woman

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Speaker 5: to be the voice for others that maybe don't feel

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Speaker 5: heard or don't have the ability to speak up, especially

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Speaker 5: in corporate America, as to how racial injustice shows up for.

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Speaker 3: Them every day in their workplace.

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Speaker 5: Really using those moments to listen first hear kind of

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Speaker 5: what our workforce is saying, and making sure that we're

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Speaker 5: talking to those underrepresented people in the workforce, black and

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Speaker 5: Hispanic and really getting their true experience and being willing

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Speaker 5: to listen even when it I think when you talk

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Speaker 5: about racism often the word just evokes rejection, right, people

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Speaker 5: want to say, well, I'm not racist, and so that

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Speaker 5: defense often gets in the way of hearing real life

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Speaker 5: experiences for people. So what I use my role to

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Speaker 5: do is to definitely speak up myself and then be

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Speaker 5: a conduit for others then actively saying what are we

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Speaker 5: going to do about it? So I sit on my

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Speaker 5: CEO advisory counsel and really really helping to provide input

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Speaker 5: as to corporate America has a responsibility here and we

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Speaker 5: need to get our house in order first, right, and

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Speaker 5: so what does that look like? We are we clear

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Speaker 5: on the data, are we disaggregating the data? Are we

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Speaker 5: publishing the data and making ourselves accountable and so really

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Speaker 5: being a partner in that and frankly being a safe

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Speaker 5: place for people to bounce things off of that. You know,

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Speaker 5: there's the fear of saying the wrong thing, and I

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Speaker 5: wanted to be a person who could have that exchange

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Speaker 5: and hopefully that person walk away better educated. And so

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Speaker 5: it's been tiring, but it has been These conversations have

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Speaker 5: to happen, and I think it's the only thing that

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Speaker 5: leads to change.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about some advice you have as a senior

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Speaker 2: corporate executive, how do you build corporate cultures to support

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Speaker 2: your brand and marketing goals?

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Speaker 8: Bob, This is a good question, and it's an important one,

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Speaker 8: and I am in the midst of it. I think

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Speaker 8: building culture is one of the most important things we

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Speaker 8: can do as a leader, and I don't know that

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Speaker 8: there is a recipe for it, but I think it

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Speaker 8: starts with being the culture that you want to see

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Speaker 8: and really making sure that that culture is set. But

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Speaker 8: then also, I hate to use the word governance, but

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Speaker 8: I'm going to use it rewarding and recognizing those who

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Speaker 8: exhibit the cultural attributes that you are setting forward and

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Speaker 8: really really bringing visibility to those behaviors.

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Speaker 2: Broadly, like Remy, Susie Dearing understand that's that a strong

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Speaker 2: corporate culture comes from leading by example. Today, Susie serves

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Speaker 2: on the board as some of the most recognizable brands

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Speaker 2: in the world. Before that, she was the global CMO

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Speaker 2: at Ford Motor Company. She says building corporate culture can

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Speaker 2: be a challenge because she puts it, there are so

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Speaker 2: many different flavors to it.

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Speaker 9: I think the part for me and my philosophy is

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Speaker 9: I need to be true to my leadership style. And

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Speaker 9: I want to ensure that I'm building an organization and

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Speaker 9: a team that doesn't lead from fear, but they lead

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Speaker 9: from opportunity. I want to ensure that there's a safe

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Speaker 9: place to where there can be very honest conversations, because

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Speaker 9: one thing I will tell you that has always been

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Speaker 9: very evident to me is in order for there to

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Speaker 9: be transformation, you have to have respect, and you have

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Speaker 9: to have transparency, and you have to make sure that

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Speaker 9: everybody feels that they're aligned. And I may not be

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Speaker 9: able to influence that across the entire corporation, but if

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Speaker 9: I can establish that within my own team and influence

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Speaker 9: the teams around me, then great. But I won't falter

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Speaker 9: from really making sure that I can at least establish

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Speaker 9: that piece of it that I can have direct influence over.

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Speaker 2: How about diversity, what's the special power that comes to

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Speaker 2: a company from a strong focus on diversity and inclusion?

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Speaker 9: Well, it becomes a secret power because I mean, if

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Speaker 9: you imagine that you can bring in diverse thinking and

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Speaker 9: diverse people and cultures and backgrounds and really apply it

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Speaker 9: differently to you, to one just you personally, it makes

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Speaker 9: you better. It makes you a better leader.

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Speaker 3: It makes you a better human.

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Speaker 9: I know there's so many stats out there about the

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Speaker 9: more diverse the leadership team is, the more profit the

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Speaker 9: company sees. Candidly, I feel like that we still treat

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Speaker 9: it as a pet project, and I don't think that's

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Speaker 9: what it is. It's part of your strategy and it's

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Speaker 9: part of how you just operate, think and perform.

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Speaker 2: I know you put a great value on family. How

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Speaker 2: do you manage that work life balance?

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Speaker 9: Well, I first realized that it isn't balancing if I

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Speaker 9: was striving for something impossible that was never gonna going

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Speaker 9: to help. I do look at it as making sure

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Speaker 9: that there's as much harmony and that I can live

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Speaker 9: up to the priorities that I set for myself. And

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Speaker 9: I'm very straightforward with my team about that and to

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Speaker 9: those that I work with that my priorities are God, family,

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Speaker 9: and work in that order. If the first two things

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Speaker 9: get out of whack, the third thing gets really messed up.

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Speaker 9: And so as long as I can keep myself honest

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Speaker 9: to that, and I expect even my team members and

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Speaker 9: my family to hold me accountable to those priorities, that

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Speaker 9: becomes my guidepost. Doesn't mean that there aren't long hours.

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Speaker 9: There doesn't mean that there's not moments that I have

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Speaker 9: to pull away from the family to take care of something.

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Speaker 9: It's just that I do that with respect and understanding

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Speaker 9: as much as I possibly can. Can't tell you get

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Speaker 9: it right all the time by any means, but you know,

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Speaker 9: I also expect that I get back those moments and

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Speaker 9: being present when I am with my family, because if

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Speaker 9: I'm doing that for work, then it's at least expected

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Speaker 9: that I can make sure that I'm doing that back

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Speaker 9: for my family.

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Speaker 2: That's it for this bonus episode of Math and Magic.

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Speaker 2: I'm Bob Pittman. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 1: That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening

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Speaker 1: to Math and Magic, a production of iHeart Podcasts. The

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Speaker 1: show is created and hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks

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00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 1: to Sydney Rosenblut for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent,

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Speaker 1: which is no small feat. The Math and Magic team

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Speaker 1: is Jessica Crime Chitch and Bahath Fraser. Our executive producers

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Speaker 1: are Ali Perry and Nikki Etoor. Until next time,