Speaker 1: Hi, everyone. Before we jump into today's episode, I want
Speaker 1: to acknowledge the horrific events that have unfolded this past weekend.
Speaker 1: Hamas's attack on innocent civilians is unspeakable. While there is nuance,
Speaker 1: there is also simplicity. We want peace, I want solutions,
Speaker 1: and I want civilians to be safe in their homes.
Speaker 1: I hold space for hard conversations on this podcast. As
Speaker 1: a Jewish American citizen watching, I feel a deep sense
Speaker 1: of grief for what is happening. Although we did not
Speaker 1: plan it this way, this week's episode is particularly timely.
Speaker 1: I had the pleasure to speak with the dear friend
Speaker 1: of mine, Marissa Renee Lee, who is a leading expert
Speaker 1: on grief. Her book, Grief Is Love can be a
Speaker 1: comfort in times like this. It gives specifics to the unimaginable.
Speaker 1: Something I try to do is to approach hard topics
Speaker 1: in a way that is paired with connection and with happiness.
Speaker 1: I've known Marissa for over a decade, and the lightness
Speaker 1: and the depth that she brings is undeniable. In this conversation,
Speaker 1: we explore grief in all forms with a bit of friendliness.
Speaker 1: During this difficult time. I hope you find solace in
Speaker 1: your loved ones. I pray for peace for all those suffering.
Speaker 1: I'm very excited today to be joined by my real
Speaker 1: life friend, also inspiration, Marisa Renee Lee, author of Grief
Speaker 1: is Love, mom, friend to Me, work, friend to Me icon,
Speaker 1: and incredibly a friend who puts it all out there
Speaker 1: in a way that is real but also accessible to
Speaker 1: me when she has gone through so much that I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily know how to process. So I recommend everybody
Speaker 1: look up her Instagram and follow her, read her book
Speaker 1: Grief is Love, And thank you so much for joining
Speaker 1: me in my first real friend bantery of this mini
Speaker 1: episode format.
Speaker 2: Yay. I am super super excited. And one of the
Speaker 2: things I was actually thinking about in advance of this
Speaker 2: chat is that so much of our friendship developed as
Speaker 2: we were going through completely opposite motherhood experiences, Like as
Speaker 2: you were having these beautiful, adorable, lovely children one after
Speaker 2: the other, I was dealing with the grief of infertility
Speaker 2: and loss, and like somehow we both managed to show
Speaker 2: up for each other. And I just think it's really
Speaker 2: important to share that upfront, because it's something I've been
Speaker 2: really grateful for.
Speaker 1: Well, I give you a lot of credit in that,
Speaker 1: So we got pregnant at the same time with my
Speaker 1: second and with your IVF not your first round.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but one ended up being the last round, you're right,
Speaker 2: but I ended up being the lastest of twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1: So I was so sick and honestly kind of depressed
Speaker 1: that I was pregnant again, thinking how am I ever
Speaker 1: going to get through this? And you were first pregnant
Speaker 1: from that. I'm gonna use terminology wrong, the placing.
Speaker 2: Okay, it's okay. I was briefly pregnant, yes, yes, from
Speaker 2: the embryo transfer. Yeah, embryo transfer.
Speaker 1: And we were in that moment, and I remember just
Speaker 1: like not feeling like I could really talk to.
Speaker 3: People about it because from the outside.
Speaker 1: It was like, oh, you have one little kid and
Speaker 1: you're pregnant, like of course you planned it, of course
Speaker 1: you thought of it. And I was feeling like I
Speaker 1: lost myself and it was really hard for me to
Speaker 1: talk to anybody about it. But you showed up so
Speaker 1: much in that moment, and for then for your pregnancy
Speaker 1: not to have taken the fact that you could then
Speaker 1: continue to show up for me.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to cry talking about it, but it
Speaker 3: meant so much.
Speaker 1: I think I saw what kind of person you were,
Speaker 1: and the fact that you could still not just be
Speaker 1: happy for me, but be supportive when I wasn't happy.
Speaker 2: So it's funny. I have a close friend who's gone
Speaker 2: through the loss of a parent. She's also a therapist
Speaker 2: whose work focuses on people usually around our own age,
Speaker 2: who or at the end of their lives, and she
Speaker 2: always says, you know, we don't have to do the
Speaker 2: trauma Olympics, Like grief can be grief no matter what
Speaker 2: it is that you're experiencing. You know, like, we don't
Speaker 2: have to do this as some sort of a comparison
Speaker 2: like I was feeling shitty, you were feeling shitty. They
Speaker 2: were very different situations, but like it was grief for
Speaker 2: both of us. And so you know, I became really
Speaker 2: thankful for the ways in which you showed up for
Speaker 2: me and terms of supporting like my career that was
Speaker 2: becoming more centered around grief, and you know, the ways
Speaker 2: you showed up for me personally. And I never thought like, oh,
Speaker 2: Emily shouldn't be sad right now, because you know, she
Speaker 2: has her pregnancy and she has her child. I more
Speaker 2: felt like grief is hard, and I'm glad that I
Speaker 2: have this friend who's supportive of me.
Speaker 1: So I want to back up to actually when we
Speaker 1: first met, it was because you were working in the
Speaker 1: White House. You were like this big White House boss,
Speaker 1: which was my dream and never ended up achieving.
Speaker 3: Was cut short.
Speaker 1: Maybe one that just crazy would probably not but you,
Speaker 1: I mean, what did that feel like to be working
Speaker 1: in the White House?
Speaker 2: Awesome? Probably it was, I mean, it was amazing. I
Speaker 2: also tell people it was the hardest work environment you
Speaker 2: can imagine, because you're sort of you know, you're thrown
Speaker 2: into this job. And in my case, when we met,
Speaker 2: I was the Deputy Director of Private Sector Engagement, which
Speaker 2: sounds very fancy and serious, but it was a title
Speaker 2: that I came up with for a job that didn't
Speaker 2: exist before I created it. That felt like it was
Speaker 2: important and necessary, and so a lot of the time,
Speaker 2: you know, you're kind of making it up as you
Speaker 2: go along and trying always to keep front and center.
Speaker 2: You know, your values and your commitment to service, but
Speaker 2: it's really hard for a young person to figure out
Speaker 2: how to navigate the ins and outs of one of
Speaker 2: the oldest institutions in the country with virtually no support,
Speaker 2: Like I will never stop being grateful for that experience.
Speaker 2: And that was another experience that was rooted in grief.
Speaker 2: As you know, my mom passed away in February of
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, so same year President Obama was elected,
Speaker 2: and a month before she died, I was watching him
Speaker 2: give a speech in Kansas about his vision for America
Speaker 2: and like what we could create together, and it was
Speaker 2: a hope and just filled me with so much optimism
Speaker 2: about the future of our country. And I watched it
Speaker 2: from my childhood bedroom while my mom was dying across
Speaker 2: the hall, and I decided in that moment, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm angry that I'm not able to be on the
Speaker 2: campaign and you know, do all these other things, but
Speaker 2: eventually I will get there. Like I'm going to find
Speaker 2: a way to work for this man because we don't
Speaker 2: know how short or long our life is going to be,
Speaker 2: and this is something I'm going to prioritize. So yeah,
Speaker 2: it was amazing, and just like everything else in my career,
Speaker 2: deeply rooted in grief.
Speaker 1: I feel like those jobs where you have to forge
Speaker 1: your own path end up like they're really hard, but
Speaker 1: end up being the best, Like you really have to
Speaker 1: work for it, like this is not like a check
Speaker 1: in check out kind of thing, but end up being
Speaker 1: the best.
Speaker 3: So how did you literally end up in that job?
Speaker 2: It's all I mean.
Speaker 1: It's also not like the federal government is well known
Speaker 1: for like bringing people on a new creative roles.
Speaker 2: No, so well, first of all, I stalked people just
Speaker 2: to get my foot in the door. And I started
Speaker 2: out at the Small Business Administration doing work primarily focused
Speaker 2: on increasing access to capital and economic opportunity and underserved communities.
Speaker 2: So you know, black, brown, LATINX women, entrepreneurs, veterans, et cetera.
Speaker 2: And I just kept at it, you know, I kept
Speaker 2: putting my hand up and volunteering for new assignments. I
Speaker 2: kept doing extra projects on the side with the White
Speaker 2: House in my free time. And one thing led to another,
Speaker 2: and there was a lot of work happen around the
Speaker 2: president's priorities and alignment with the business community, and so
Speaker 2: they needed someone who understood the needs of businesses and
Speaker 2: also the priorities of our administration. And as a former banker,
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, it made sense. You know.
Speaker 2: There was still a lot of advocating that I had
Speaker 2: to do for myself and a lot of advocating that
Speaker 2: colleagues did on my behalf. But at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, it was you know, the hard work, determination
Speaker 2: slash stubbornness, and a real commitment to serving our president.
Speaker 2: You know, I wanted to do everything I could to
Speaker 2: help this man achieve his streams for our country.
Speaker 1: I feel like that work tactic that you tried of,
Speaker 1: just like raising your hand and taking on projects is
Speaker 1: I mean the best, the absolute best way to do
Speaker 1: it. It works, like it actually works because the people who
Speaker 1: you want to be hiring you know that they're not
Speaker 1: taking a chance on you, like they've seen your work products.
Speaker 3: Now that you show up, you're trusted, You're trusted. That is,
Speaker 3: by far the way that.
Speaker 1: People get hired on campaigns is you just go to
Speaker 1: your first volunteer, like you go to like the first
Speaker 1: person who's been in the room, and you're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: Like I could take a chance on hiring someone when
Speaker 1: I have no idea what the dynamic's going to be,
Speaker 1: I don't know their work ethic, or I can take
Speaker 1: this person who may not know the job exactly, but
Speaker 1: like they get it, like they know how to work
Speaker 1: and I'm familiar with them, and there's not that kind
Speaker 1: of onboarding, and I feel like, even, look, I mean,
Speaker 1: we've both been consultants for like many years now. We've
Speaker 1: talked about this a lot of times. It's like how
Speaker 1: much work do we do for free versus starting to
Speaker 1: get paid and like taking on new clients. We've talked
Speaker 1: about this a lot that like there's no right answer,
Speaker 1: but it is the best way to get to really
Speaker 1: get your foot in the door if you want your
Speaker 1: ideal job, your ideal project, Like, it's kind of the
Speaker 1: best way to do.
Speaker 2: It one hundred percent. Whenever I talk to younger people
Speaker 2: about career development and career advancement, I say, don't start
Speaker 2: out by asking for things for yourself, Like, start out
Speaker 2: by asking how you can contribute and finding ways to
Speaker 2: serve and support others, because that will naturally come back to, Oh,
Speaker 2: we trust her. You know she knows what she's doing,
Speaker 2: She's volunteered for X, y Z. Why wouldn't we consider
Speaker 2: her for this next promotion or new opportunity. So lead
Speaker 2: with some sense for how you can help someone else,
Speaker 2: and it will always end up serving you in your career.
Speaker 3: I think totally so I want to fast forward.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 3: Do you wrote this book Grief Is Love? How did
Speaker 3: the book come about specifically?
Speaker 2: Oh girl? The books started almost exactly fifteen years ago
Speaker 2: when I lost my mom to breast cancer. And as
Speaker 2: you could probably tell, I'm like very type A on
Speaker 2: top of things, I like lists, I like spreadsheets. It
Speaker 2: was very organized around my mom's death and very proactive
Speaker 2: around grief, reading the books, doing the research, thinking that
Speaker 2: if I was prepared, I would be fine. And that's
Speaker 2: just not true. Like the loss destroyed me. And it
Speaker 2: took a really long time to realize that when we
Speaker 2: lose someone we love, we don't get over it. Like
Speaker 2: I don't even know who came up with that concept,
Speaker 2: but I would love to just smack them, because it's
Speaker 2: not it's not true, it's not possible. And the leading
Speaker 2: research around grief and loss is all about learning how
Speaker 2: to live with it. And so through both the loss
Speaker 2: of my mother and then you know, my IVF journey
Speaker 2: and pregnancy loss, I came to realize the very hard
Speaker 2: way that learning to live with these things is like
Speaker 2: the work of your life, you know, That is what
Speaker 2: healing is really about. That's what this idea of moving
Speaker 2: on is about you know, you don't move on alone.
Speaker 2: You move on with your people and the experiences and
Speaker 2: the love that you shared with them. And so I
Speaker 2: started writing about my theories on grief and loss in
Speaker 2: Earnest in twenty twenty, which was obviously a big year
Speaker 2: of grief for everyone, and an article I wrote that
Speaker 2: Lots of Friends like Yourself Shared went somewhat viral and
Speaker 2: led to a book deal. And in Grief as Love,
Speaker 2: I really try to normalize the experience of grief and
Speaker 2: loss for all of us, whether you're someone who has
Speaker 2: already gone through it or someone who's trying to support
Speaker 2: someone else who's going through it, It's a part of life,
Speaker 2: and I want people to know that fundamentally, grief is
Speaker 2: the repeated experience of learning to live in the midst
Speaker 2: of a significant loss. So whether it's learning to figure out,
Speaker 2: you know, in your case, all of those years ago,
Speaker 2: how do I manage this grief I'm experiencing around the
Speaker 2: loss of my career and the plans that I had
Speaker 2: for my life right now, or me trying to figure out,
Speaker 2: you know, what does it look like to accept the
Speaker 2: fact that I've never given birth naturally and never will,
Speaker 2: but I still now today am fortunate to be a
Speaker 2: mom to like this beautiful, perfect adopted child of mine.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's a lived experience, and I hope
Speaker 2: that it's helpful for people as they move through grief.
Speaker 1: And he is like the cutest little p ut He's
Speaker 1: just like a little like squishy, like he's so cute.
Speaker 2: He's a true he's a true.
Speaker 1: Well, I wonder about this, like, as you're building up
Speaker 1: this grief portfolio. You know, we've talked about how you
Speaker 1: want to make it like much more of your time
Speaker 1: and more of your work, because you're still doing your
Speaker 1: political consulting, like as you're oh yeah, I'm still going
Speaker 1: you know, like as you're writing your book, like as
Speaker 1: you're doing your book tour, like you're speaking to like
Speaker 1: you're still you're still doing it.
Speaker 3: So like, how how do you.
Speaker 1: Actually make it not profit profitable is not the right word,
Speaker 1: but like sustainable for you to do, like for it
Speaker 1: to take up more of your time and like more
Speaker 1: of your band with like realistically, like functionally, how do
Speaker 1: you make it work? And then I also wonder I've
Speaker 1: actually wondered about this for you, how do you stay
Speaker 1: in the grief all the time, because the thing that
Speaker 1: you're talking about is the.
Speaker 3: Hardest part of your life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you want to do it more so like
Speaker 1: are you okay?
Speaker 3: Like how are you doing that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, that's that's a really good question. So I
Speaker 2: have reframed my work. Even though yes, it is very
Speaker 2: much about grief and loss, I tend to think of
Speaker 2: it as being about healing and resilience because fundamentally, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't want people to stay sad, like I don't
Speaker 2: want people to stay stuck in the worst and hardest
Speaker 2: parts of grief because they're fucking terrible, Like they're awful,
Speaker 2: They're so so awful. What I want is for people
Speaker 2: to get comfortable acknowledging the hard parts that continue to
Speaker 2: come up as you live your life. You know, when
Speaker 2: we were fortunate enough to you know, get the call
Speaker 2: about this baby and become parents in less than twenty
Speaker 2: four hours, it was like the most amazing, joyful, magical experience,
Speaker 2: But there was also grief in it, you know, like
Speaker 2: I wanted my mom there to help me, Like, you
Speaker 2: know how overwhelming it is to suddenly have a newborn
Speaker 2: and to be handed a baby that's two days old.
Speaker 2: With nothing, like we had nothing Emily, like, everything for
Speaker 2: this child came from other people getting organized, sending us
Speaker 2: something for him to sleep in, you know, sending diapers
Speaker 2: and orders from Target and the grocery store to our airbnb.
Speaker 2: But like, at the end of the day, I also
Speaker 2: wanted that mom help and there was none of that,
Speaker 2: and it was really hard. And so what I want
Speaker 2: is to be able to use my story and my
Speaker 2: experiences and the leading research to help people live with
Speaker 2: those moments. And so I'm okay into doing more of
Speaker 2: that work because fundamentally it makes me feel like there
Speaker 2: is more meaning and purpose to the really hard things
Speaker 2: that I've gone through. So that that's kind of how
Speaker 2: I rationalize it. But I'll tell you I did. I
Speaker 2: did a three hour like grief and sort of processing, healing,
Speaker 2: leaning into joy type session for a nonprofit organization that
Speaker 2: deals with grief regularly, both the loss of students. They've
Speaker 2: had a number of recent and very unexpected losses in
Speaker 2: their staff. And it was hard. You know, it was
Speaker 2: three hours of talking about it, listening to people crying,
Speaker 2: you know, people trying to support each other. And after that, like,
Speaker 2: I need a nap. I can't like, I definitely absorb it.
Speaker 2: That's just the kind of person that I am. And
Speaker 2: I don't know who would go through that kind of
Speaker 2: work and not absorb it. And so I try to
Speaker 2: be really intentional about building and breaks and time for
Speaker 2: care for myself because otherwise I.
Speaker 1: Can't do this work that totally makes sense to me.
Speaker 1: So over the years you've been a sounding board for me,
Speaker 1: and now with your work, I can just read it,
Speaker 1: which is so nice that I have you accessible to
Speaker 1: me all of the time. But I have not gone
Speaker 1: through the significant losses that you have, and so it's
Speaker 1: intimidating for me to talk to people who have, and like,
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure how to do it. And I
Speaker 1: think that sometimes people see your work and it's intimidating.
Speaker 3: If they have gone through it, they think it's going
Speaker 3: to bring it back up, or if they haven't.
Speaker 1: Gone through it, it's intimidating because they think it's not
Speaker 1: for them. And one of the kind of sad losses
Speaker 1: of my life has been the losses of friendships, where
Speaker 1: you know, as we're getting older, like we have more
Speaker 1: and more of these close losses in our lives, and
Speaker 1: I have not shown up for my friends in the
Speaker 1: way that they needed me to, and then I've the
Speaker 1: friendship just couldn't survive it.
Speaker 3: So that's real.
Speaker 1: What advice do you give to people on my side
Speaker 1: of this on how to be showing up for their
Speaker 1: friends when they can't actually empathize, Like they can only sympathize.
Speaker 2: They haven't been through the experience.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the big thing that I always say, and I
Speaker 2: know that this gets people really hung up. You know,
Speaker 2: I don't know what to say, Like the worst thing
Speaker 2: just happened to somebody that I care about, and like,
Speaker 2: I don't know what to say. And the reason why
Speaker 2: you don't know what to say is because there is
Speaker 2: no right thing or perfect thing to say. And I
Speaker 2: say that as a person who's got hundreds of words
Speaker 2: in a book about grief and has been through it
Speaker 2: a bunch of times. And the reason why there's no
Speaker 2: right thing to say is because the worst thing has
Speaker 2: just happened to someone. And so I encourage people to
Speaker 2: just put the words aside, and again saying this as
Speaker 2: a writer, forget about your words and take action. And
Speaker 2: action can take a lot of different forms, you know, people,
Speaker 2: when we've gone through our losses, it's everything from like
Speaker 2: me to takeing care of our dog to a bunch
Speaker 2: of my girlfriends got together knowing how devastating the pregnancy
Speaker 2: loss was, and they pulled a bunch of money and
Speaker 2: gave us a gift certificate to the Four Seasons because
Speaker 2: they were like, not only do you guys need a vacation,
Speaker 2: but you need like a fancy, bougie break from reality
Speaker 2: type vacation. And it was the most thoughtful thing.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I've received wine and cheese boxes, but like, I've also
Speaker 2: gotten practical help from people. You know, our mutual friend
Speaker 2: Chris Cormier, who's also in this political consulting space, when
Speaker 2: I went through my pregnancy loss, like he literally just
Speaker 2: took work away from me. You know, he knew projects
Speaker 2: that I was working on because we share some clients,
Speaker 2: and he just just took them, you know, didn't ask,
Speaker 2: just took it. Like even I think about things that
Speaker 2: you've done to support my work, Like when I was
Speaker 2: doing the series with Glamour and you made the connection
Speaker 2: to Corey Booker so that I could interview him live
Speaker 2: for the series on Grief. Like, there are so many
Speaker 2: ways to show up for people, but I do think
Speaker 2: the most effective ones are rooted in action, not words.
Speaker 2: So I just I want people to let go of
Speaker 2: being intimidated, because it is intimidating, Like it's death, it's
Speaker 2: a lot, it's hard, it's heavy. So just do something
Speaker 2: that feels right to you to help them.
Speaker 1: That really resonates of something that feels something that feels
Speaker 1: right to you and something that feels doable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't overthink it. Like it can either be rooted
Speaker 2: in your experiences and like what supports someone maybe be
Speaker 2: pro frided to you at some point. It can be
Speaker 2: rooted in like what assets and you know, relationships and
Speaker 2: things you can bring to the table. It can also
Speaker 2: be rooted in and this is one of the ones
Speaker 2: that I have found most meaningful when people do something
Speaker 2: that like gets at the core of who I am
Speaker 2: independent of this loss. You know, like someone sent me
Speaker 2: a box of cheeses and like fancy snacks from Murray's
Speaker 2: in the West Village because it's one of my favorite
Speaker 2: stores like in the world, and that you know, like
Speaker 2: when you if I had sustained that pregnancy, I wouldn't
Speaker 2: have been able to eat all of those fancy cheeses.
Speaker 2: So it was.
Speaker 1: Also practical in some way, and because she solves everything,
Speaker 1: it really does.
Speaker 2: Like a good snack and a glass of bourbon, like
Speaker 2: really do go a long way.
Speaker 1: So I'm going to ask the question I ask all
Speaker 1: of my Pivot guests, which is, what is one thing
Speaker 1: in your life that at the time you thought it
Speaker 1: was like really low, but then in retrospect you look
Speaker 1: back and it kind of set you up for success?
Speaker 2: Gosh, I mean, lord, there have been so many. I
Speaker 2: would say for me in terms of like recent history,
Speaker 2: it would have to be our pregnancy lost like it was.
Speaker 2: It was awful. It was one of the lowest and
Speaker 2: most depressing times in my life. But now I look
Speaker 2: at the child that I have, and I also look
Speaker 2: at the book that came out of that experience, and
Speaker 2: I don't want to say it set me up for success,
Speaker 2: but it absolutely enabled things that might not have happened
Speaker 2: otherwise that I'm incredibly grateful for.
Speaker 1: And I think perspective means to speak for you, but
Speaker 1: I think perspective change a little bit as well.
Speaker 3: Not that you needed perspective after what you've been through.
Speaker 1: Already, but I think that it it just I don't
Speaker 1: know how to articulate it, but it like changed.
Speaker 2: It shifted so many things for me. It shifted so
Speaker 2: many things for me, and I learned so many things
Speaker 2: from that experience. Like as horrible as it was, and
Speaker 2: I do not wish to repeat it or anything, but
Speaker 2: it was, it was incredibly valuable.
Speaker 1: I think I also, having lived that moment with you,
Speaker 1: I think I also remember there being like a shift
Speaker 1: in mindset to I'm not sure if adoption is the
Speaker 1: way that I'll become a parent to I now see
Speaker 1: this as a realistic way to become a parent one
Speaker 1: hundred percent.
Speaker 3: And he's gorgeous, and congratulations.
Speaker 1: Thank you well, thank you so much for joining our
Speaker 1: conversational minisodes.
Speaker 3: It's so good to have you on.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Marissa is continuing her work on grief and she is
Speaker 1: relaunching her book on paperback this week. I'm so looking
Speaker 1: forward to celebrating with her and one of our other guests,
Speaker 1: Emily Oster, next week at their event. If you're in
Speaker 1: the New York area and want to stop by, you
Speaker 1: can find more info on our Instagram at she Pivots
Speaker 1: the Podcast. Thanks for listening to this candid convo episode
Speaker 1: of she Pivots. This is actually our last candid convo
Speaker 1: of this season because next week is our season finale.
Speaker 1: It's bittersweet, but I'm so ready for you all to
Speaker 1: hear my conversation with a very exciting guest. It's a
Speaker 1: secret for now, but I wonder if you can guess
Speaker 1: who it might be. Be sure to follow us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at she pivots the podcast for some clues and
Speaker 1: leave a rating and comment if you enjoyed this episode
Speaker 1: to help others learn about it. A special thank you
Speaker 1: to our partner Marie Clair and the team that made
Speaker 1: this episode possible. Talk to you next week. She Pivots
Speaker 1: is hosted by me Emily Tish Sussman, produced by Emily
Speaker 1: Eda Voloshik, with sound editing and mixing from Nina Pollock
Speaker 1: and research and planning from Christine Dickinson and Hannah Cousins.
Speaker 2: I endorse Che Pizzots.