WEBVTT - Candid Convo with Marisa Renee Lee: Navigating Grief 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:06.680 Hi, everyone. Before we jump into today's episode, I want 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:09.840 to acknowledge the horrific events that have unfolded this past weekend. 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:16.200 Hamas's attack on innocent civilians is unspeakable. While there is nuance, 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:20.079 there is also simplicity. We want peace, I want solutions, 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:22.239 and I want civilians to be safe in their homes. 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.680 I hold space for hard conversations on this podcast. As 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.760 a Jewish American citizen watching, I feel a deep sense 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:32.320 of grief for what is happening. Although we did not 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:35.400 plan it this way, this week's episode is particularly timely. 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:37.840 I had the pleasure to speak with the dear friend 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:41.400 of mine, Marissa Renee Lee, who is a leading expert 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:44.320 on grief. Her book, Grief Is Love can be a 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.840 comfort in times like this. It gives specifics to the unimaginable. 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:51.239 Something I try to do is to approach hard topics 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.000 in a way that is paired with connection and with happiness. 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:56.880 I've known Marissa for over a decade, and the lightness 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:00.880 and the depth that she brings is undeniable. In this conversation, 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.280 we explore grief in all forms with a bit of friendliness. 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.520 During this difficult time. I hope you find solace in 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.880 your loved ones. I pray for peace for all those suffering. 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.040 I'm very excited today to be joined by my real 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:25.480 life friend, also inspiration, Marisa Renee Lee, author of Grief 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:31.759 is Love, mom, friend to Me, work, friend to Me icon, 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:35.360 and incredibly a friend who puts it all out there 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:39.520 in a way that is real but also accessible to 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:42.160 me when she has gone through so much that I 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:45.800 don't necessarily know how to process. So I recommend everybody 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:48.440 look up her Instagram and follow her, read her book 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:50.920 Grief is Love, And thank you so much for joining 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.960 me in my first real friend bantery of this mini 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:56.000 episode format. 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:00.320 Yay. I am super super excited. And one of the 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.560 things I was actually thinking about in advance of this 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:08.440 chat is that so much of our friendship developed as 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:14.919 we were going through completely opposite motherhood experiences, Like as 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:19.840 you were having these beautiful, adorable, lovely children one after 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:23.239 the other, I was dealing with the grief of infertility 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.760 and loss, and like somehow we both managed to show 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:28.440 up for each other. And I just think it's really 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:31.720 important to share that upfront, because it's something I've been 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:32.560 really grateful for. 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:34.920 Well, I give you a lot of credit in that, 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:37.600 So we got pregnant at the same time with my 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:42.240 second and with your IVF not your first round. 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:45.679 Yeah, but one ended up being the last round, you're right, 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:48.200 but I ended up being the lastest of twenty nineteen. 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:52.040 So I was so sick and honestly kind of depressed 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.680 that I was pregnant again, thinking how am I ever 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:58.800 going to get through this? And you were first pregnant 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:02.680 from that. I'm gonna use terminology wrong, the placing. 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:05.639 Okay, it's okay. I was briefly pregnant, yes, yes, from 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.320 the embryo transfer. Yeah, embryo transfer. 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:10.840 And we were in that moment, and I remember just 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:13.600 like not feeling like I could really talk to. 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.160 People about it because from the outside. 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:18.239 It was like, oh, you have one little kid and 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:20.440 you're pregnant, like of course you planned it, of course 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:23.120 you thought of it. And I was feeling like I 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:25.919 lost myself and it was really hard for me to 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:28.920 talk to anybody about it. But you showed up so 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:32.560 much in that moment, and for then for your pregnancy 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:36.440 not to have taken the fact that you could then 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:37.840 continue to show up for me. 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.320 I'm not going to cry talking about it, but it 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:41.320 meant so much. 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:44.720 I think I saw what kind of person you were, 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:46.880 and the fact that you could still not just be 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:50.120 happy for me, but be supportive when I wasn't happy. 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.400 So it's funny. I have a close friend who's gone 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:57.920 through the loss of a parent. She's also a therapist 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:01.360 whose work focuses on people usually around our own age, 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:03.920 who or at the end of their lives, and she 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:07.600 always says, you know, we don't have to do the 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:13.400 trauma Olympics, Like grief can be grief no matter what 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.360 it is that you're experiencing. You know, like, we don't 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:18.800 have to do this as some sort of a comparison 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:22.480 like I was feeling shitty, you were feeling shitty. They 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:27.200 were very different situations, but like it was grief for 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:31.080 both of us. And so you know, I became really 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:33.479 thankful for the ways in which you showed up for 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.919 me and terms of supporting like my career that was 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.960 becoming more centered around grief, and you know, the ways 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:44.480 you showed up for me personally. And I never thought like, oh, 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:48.000 Emily shouldn't be sad right now, because you know, she 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:50.680 has her pregnancy and she has her child. I more 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:53.839 felt like grief is hard, and I'm glad that I 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:55.680 have this friend who's supportive of me. 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:58.039 So I want to back up to actually when we 0:04:58.120 --> 0:04:59.760 first met, it was because you were working in the 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:04.600 White House. You were like this big White House boss, 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.719 which was my dream and never ended up achieving. 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:08.719 Was cut short. 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.640 Maybe one that just crazy would probably not but you, 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:13.760 I mean, what did that feel like to be working 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:14.560 in the White House? 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.880 Awesome? Probably it was, I mean, it was amazing. I 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:21.919 also tell people it was the hardest work environment you 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:24.960 can imagine, because you're sort of you know, you're thrown 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:27.800 into this job. And in my case, when we met, 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.040 I was the Deputy Director of Private Sector Engagement, which 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:34.400 sounds very fancy and serious, but it was a title 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:36.919 that I came up with for a job that didn't 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.120 exist before I created it. That felt like it was 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:43.240 important and necessary, and so a lot of the time, 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.159 you know, you're kind of making it up as you 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:50.520 go along and trying always to keep front and center. 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:54.000 You know, your values and your commitment to service, but 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:56.680 it's really hard for a young person to figure out 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.440 how to navigate the ins and outs of one of 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:03.360 the oldest institutions in the country with virtually no support, 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.680 Like I will never stop being grateful for that experience. 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:10.120 And that was another experience that was rooted in grief. 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:13.480 As you know, my mom passed away in February of 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:17.680 two thousand and eight, so same year President Obama was elected, 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.400 and a month before she died, I was watching him 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:25.800 give a speech in Kansas about his vision for America 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:28.839 and like what we could create together, and it was 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:33.400 a hope and just filled me with so much optimism 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.480 about the future of our country. And I watched it 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.599 from my childhood bedroom while my mom was dying across 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:43.440 the hall, and I decided in that moment, you know, 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:46.479 I'm angry that I'm not able to be on the 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:48.800 campaign and you know, do all these other things, but 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.400 eventually I will get there. Like I'm going to find 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:53.360 a way to work for this man because we don't 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:55.400 know how short or long our life is going to be, 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.000 and this is something I'm going to prioritize. So yeah, 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.799 it was amazing, and just like everything else in my career, 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:02.440 deeply rooted in grief. 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:05.880 I feel like those jobs where you have to forge 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:09.040 your own path end up like they're really hard, but 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:11.800 end up being the best, Like you really have to 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:13.080 work for it, like this is not like a check 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:14.840 in check out kind of thing, but end up being 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:15.400 the best. 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:17.880 So how did you literally end up in that job? 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:18.360 It's all I mean. 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:20.680 It's also not like the federal government is well known 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.280 for like bringing people on a new creative roles. 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:27.760 No, so well, first of all, I stalked people just 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.160 to get my foot in the door. And I started 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.720 out at the Small Business Administration doing work primarily focused 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:38.840 on increasing access to capital and economic opportunity and underserved communities. 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:43.280 So you know, black, brown, LATINX women, entrepreneurs, veterans, et cetera. 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:47.160 And I just kept at it, you know, I kept 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:50.360 putting my hand up and volunteering for new assignments. I 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.360 kept doing extra projects on the side with the White 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:57.440 House in my free time. And one thing led to another, 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:01.400 and there was a lot of work happen around the 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:05.520 president's priorities and alignment with the business community, and so 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:10.320 they needed someone who understood the needs of businesses and 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:14.360 also the priorities of our administration. And as a former banker, 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.280 in a lot of ways, it made sense. You know. 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:19.600 There was still a lot of advocating that I had 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.080 to do for myself and a lot of advocating that 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.840 colleagues did on my behalf. But at the end of 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.800 the day, it was you know, the hard work, determination 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:35.880 slash stubbornness, and a real commitment to serving our president. 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:37.880 You know, I wanted to do everything I could to 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:41.440 help this man achieve his streams for our country. 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.680 I feel like that work tactic that you tried of, 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:47.640 just like raising your hand and taking on projects is 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.160 I mean the best, the absolute best way to do 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:53.960 it. It works, like it actually works because the people who 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.800 you want to be hiring you know that they're not 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:59.280 taking a chance on you, like they've seen your work products. 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:03.240 Now that you show up, you're trusted, You're trusted. That is, 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:04.920 by far the way that. 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:07.720 People get hired on campaigns is you just go to 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:09.800 your first volunteer, like you go to like the first 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.320 person who's been in the room, and you're like, oh, okay, 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.520 Like I could take a chance on hiring someone when 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:16.240 I have no idea what the dynamic's going to be, 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.800 I don't know their work ethic, or I can take 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.480 this person who may not know the job exactly, but 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:23.400 like they get it, like they know how to work 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:25.800 and I'm familiar with them, and there's not that kind 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.800 of onboarding, and I feel like, even, look, I mean, 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.440 we've both been consultants for like many years now. We've 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.600 talked about this a lot of times. It's like how 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.679 much work do we do for free versus starting to 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:39.800 get paid and like taking on new clients. We've talked 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.640 about this a lot that like there's no right answer, 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.640 but it is the best way to get to really 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:47.600 get your foot in the door if you want your 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.520 ideal job, your ideal project, Like, it's kind of the 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:51.199 best way to do. 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:54.120 It one hundred percent. Whenever I talk to younger people 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:59.600 about career development and career advancement, I say, don't start 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:03.800 out by asking for things for yourself, Like, start out 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:08.360 by asking how you can contribute and finding ways to 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:13.680 serve and support others, because that will naturally come back to, Oh, 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.439 we trust her. You know she knows what she's doing, 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.720 She's volunteered for X, y Z. Why wouldn't we consider 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:24.920 her for this next promotion or new opportunity. So lead 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.439 with some sense for how you can help someone else, 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.920 and it will always end up serving you in your career. 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.080 I think totally so I want to fast forward. 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:35.480 Now. 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:37.839 Do you wrote this book Grief Is Love? How did 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:39.440 the book come about specifically? 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:46.080 Oh girl? The books started almost exactly fifteen years ago 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:49.920 when I lost my mom to breast cancer. And as 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.400 you could probably tell, I'm like very type A on 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:54.800 top of things, I like lists, I like spreadsheets. It 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:58.719 was very organized around my mom's death and very proactive 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:02.559 around grief, reading the books, doing the research, thinking that 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.240 if I was prepared, I would be fine. And that's 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:08.240 just not true. Like the loss destroyed me. And it 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:10.960 took a really long time to realize that when we 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:13.560 lose someone we love, we don't get over it. Like 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:15.920 I don't even know who came up with that concept, 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:19.079 but I would love to just smack them, because it's 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:22.000 not it's not true, it's not possible. And the leading 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.839 research around grief and loss is all about learning how 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.880 to live with it. And so through both the loss 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:31.800 of my mother and then you know, my IVF journey 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:36.040 and pregnancy loss, I came to realize the very hard 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:40.280 way that learning to live with these things is like 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:43.520 the work of your life, you know, That is what 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:48.400 healing is really about. That's what this idea of moving 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:50.439 on is about you know, you don't move on alone. 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.080 You move on with your people and the experiences and 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.600 the love that you shared with them. And so I 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:59.240 started writing about my theories on grief and loss in 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:02.760 Earnest in twenty twenty, which was obviously a big year 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.880 of grief for everyone, and an article I wrote that 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:10.280 Lots of Friends like Yourself Shared went somewhat viral and 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.640 led to a book deal. And in Grief as Love, 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:18.240 I really try to normalize the experience of grief and 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:20.400 loss for all of us, whether you're someone who has 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.400 already gone through it or someone who's trying to support 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.880 someone else who's going through it, It's a part of life, 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.880 and I want people to know that fundamentally, grief is 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:34.200 the repeated experience of learning to live in the midst 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:38.120 of a significant loss. So whether it's learning to figure out, 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.360 you know, in your case, all of those years ago, 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:44.080 how do I manage this grief I'm experiencing around the 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.560 loss of my career and the plans that I had 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:50.160 for my life right now, or me trying to figure out, 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.360 you know, what does it look like to accept the 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:57.480 fact that I've never given birth naturally and never will, 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:00.440 but I still now today am fortunate to be a 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.640 mom to like this beautiful, perfect adopted child of mine. 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:06.680 So yeah, it's it's a lived experience, and I hope 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.600 that it's helpful for people as they move through grief. 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.760 And he is like the cutest little p ut He's 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.480 just like a little like squishy, like he's so cute. 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.160 He's a true he's a true. 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.320 Well, I wonder about this, like, as you're building up 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.480 this grief portfolio. You know, we've talked about how you 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:28.400 want to make it like much more of your time 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:30.160 and more of your work, because you're still doing your 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:34.320 political consulting, like as you're oh yeah, I'm still going 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:36.400 you know, like as you're writing your book, like as 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.120 you're doing your book tour, like you're speaking to like 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:40.560 you're still you're still doing it. 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:41.800 So like, how how do you. 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:46.280 Actually make it not profit profitable is not the right word, 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:48.120 but like sustainable for you to do, like for it 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:49.920 to take up more of your time and like more 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.640 of your band with like realistically, like functionally, how do 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.720 you make it work? And then I also wonder I've 0:13:55.720 --> 0:14:01.120 actually wondered about this for you, how do you stay 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.000 in the grief all the time, because the thing that 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.079 you're talking about is the. 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.240 Hardest part of your life. 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.840 Yeah, but you want to do it more so like 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:12.560 are you okay? 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:14.080 Like how are you doing that? 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.520 Yeah? No, that's that's a really good question. So I 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:20.880 have reframed my work. Even though yes, it is very 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.560 much about grief and loss, I tend to think of 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:29.760 it as being about healing and resilience because fundamentally, you know, 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:32.720 I don't want people to stay sad, like I don't 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:36.280 want people to stay stuck in the worst and hardest 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:40.160 parts of grief because they're fucking terrible, Like they're awful, 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:44.360 They're so so awful. What I want is for people 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:49.840 to get comfortable acknowledging the hard parts that continue to 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:52.560 come up as you live your life. You know, when 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:56.120 we were fortunate enough to you know, get the call 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.960 about this baby and become parents in less than twenty 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:05.640 four hours, it was like the most amazing, joyful, magical experience, 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:09.120 But there was also grief in it, you know, like 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.440 I wanted my mom there to help me, Like, you 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.320 know how overwhelming it is to suddenly have a newborn 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.680 and to be handed a baby that's two days old. 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:25.000 With nothing, like we had nothing Emily, like, everything for 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:30.360 this child came from other people getting organized, sending us 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.400 something for him to sleep in, you know, sending diapers 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:37.040 and orders from Target and the grocery store to our airbnb. 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:39.400 But like, at the end of the day, I also 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:43.760 wanted that mom help and there was none of that, 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:47.560 and it was really hard. And so what I want 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.640 is to be able to use my story and my 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:55.560 experiences and the leading research to help people live with 0:15:55.680 --> 0:16:02.040 those moments. And so I'm okay into doing more of 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:06.840 that work because fundamentally it makes me feel like there 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:11.120 is more meaning and purpose to the really hard things 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.280 that I've gone through. So that that's kind of how 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.920 I rationalize it. But I'll tell you I did. I 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:22.520 did a three hour like grief and sort of processing, healing, 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:27.200 leaning into joy type session for a nonprofit organization that 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.840 deals with grief regularly, both the loss of students. They've 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:34.280 had a number of recent and very unexpected losses in 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.120 their staff. And it was hard. You know, it was 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:41.320 three hours of talking about it, listening to people crying, 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:44.400 you know, people trying to support each other. And after that, like, 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:48.640 I need a nap. I can't like, I definitely absorb it. 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:50.560 That's just the kind of person that I am. And 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.160 I don't know who would go through that kind of 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.680 work and not absorb it. And so I try to 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:59.040 be really intentional about building and breaks and time for 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.040 care for myself because otherwise I. 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.439 Can't do this work that totally makes sense to me. 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.919 So over the years you've been a sounding board for me, 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:11.720 and now with your work, I can just read it, 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:13.639 which is so nice that I have you accessible to 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.320 me all of the time. But I have not gone 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:20.240 through the significant losses that you have, and so it's 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:23.919 intimidating for me to talk to people who have, and like, 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.560 I'm not really sure how to do it. And I 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.000 think that sometimes people see your work and it's intimidating. 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:32.840 If they have gone through it, they think it's going 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:34.919 to bring it back up, or if they haven't. 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.080 Gone through it, it's intimidating because they think it's not 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:43.119 for them. And one of the kind of sad losses 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.359 of my life has been the losses of friendships, where 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:47.960 you know, as we're getting older, like we have more 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.560 and more of these close losses in our lives, and 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:53.320 I have not shown up for my friends in the 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.040 way that they needed me to, and then I've the 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:58.439 friendship just couldn't survive it. 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:00.720 So that's real. 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:05.160 What advice do you give to people on my side 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.200 of this on how to be showing up for their 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:13.399 friends when they can't actually empathize, Like they can only sympathize. 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:14.400 They haven't been through the experience. 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:15.040 Yeah. 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:20.000 So the big thing that I always say, and I 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:22.520 know that this gets people really hung up. You know, 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:24.200 I don't know what to say, Like the worst thing 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:26.159 just happened to somebody that I care about, and like, 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:28.640 I don't know what to say. And the reason why 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:30.919 you don't know what to say is because there is 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:34.359 no right thing or perfect thing to say. And I 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.000 say that as a person who's got hundreds of words 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:38.720 in a book about grief and has been through it 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:40.919 a bunch of times. And the reason why there's no 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:43.280 right thing to say is because the worst thing has 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.280 just happened to someone. And so I encourage people to 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.399 just put the words aside, and again saying this as 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:53.159 a writer, forget about your words and take action. And 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:56.400 action can take a lot of different forms, you know, people, 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.280 when we've gone through our losses, it's everything from like 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.080 me to takeing care of our dog to a bunch 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.280 of my girlfriends got together knowing how devastating the pregnancy 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.520 loss was, and they pulled a bunch of money and 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:12.640 gave us a gift certificate to the Four Seasons because 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:14.520 they were like, not only do you guys need a vacation, 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:18.680 but you need like a fancy, bougie break from reality 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:22.239 type vacation. And it was the most thoughtful thing. 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:22.439 You know. 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:26.720 I've received wine and cheese boxes, but like, I've also 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:30.600 gotten practical help from people. You know, our mutual friend 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:35.320 Chris Cormier, who's also in this political consulting space, when 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:40.159 I went through my pregnancy loss, like he literally just 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.560 took work away from me. You know, he knew projects 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:45.920 that I was working on because we share some clients, 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:49.280 and he just just took them, you know, didn't ask, 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:51.640 just took it. Like even I think about things that 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.840 you've done to support my work, Like when I was 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:57.680 doing the series with Glamour and you made the connection 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:00.560 to Corey Booker so that I could interview him live 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.480 for the series on Grief. Like, there are so many 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.120 ways to show up for people, but I do think 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:10.320 the most effective ones are rooted in action, not words. 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:12.800 So I just I want people to let go of 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.560 being intimidated, because it is intimidating, Like it's death, it's 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.800 a lot, it's hard, it's heavy. So just do something 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:22.119 that feels right to you to help them. 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.960 That really resonates of something that feels something that feels 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:29.880 right to you and something that feels doable. 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:33.719 Yeah, don't overthink it. Like it can either be rooted 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:38.320 in your experiences and like what supports someone maybe be 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:40.480 pro frided to you at some point. It can be 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:43.639 rooted in like what assets and you know, relationships and 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.119 things you can bring to the table. It can also 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:48.159 be rooted in and this is one of the ones 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:52.160 that I have found most meaningful when people do something 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:54.920 that like gets at the core of who I am 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:58.479 independent of this loss. You know, like someone sent me 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:03.320 a box of cheeses and like fancy snacks from Murray's 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.399 in the West Village because it's one of my favorite 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:09.040 stores like in the world, and that you know, like 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:11.959 when you if I had sustained that pregnancy, I wouldn't 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:13.840 have been able to eat all of those fancy cheeses. 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:14.400 So it was. 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:18.080 Also practical in some way, and because she solves everything, 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:19.280 it really does. 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:23.159