1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone. Before we jump into today's episode, I want 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: to acknowledge the horrific events that have unfolded this past weekend. 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: Hamas's attack on innocent civilians is unspeakable. While there is nuance, 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: there is also simplicity. We want peace, I want solutions, 5 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: and I want civilians to be safe in their homes. 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: I hold space for hard conversations on this podcast. As 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: a Jewish American citizen watching, I feel a deep sense 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: of grief for what is happening. Although we did not 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: plan it this way, this week's episode is particularly timely. 10 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: I had the pleasure to speak with the dear friend 11 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: of mine, Marissa Renee Lee, who is a leading expert 12 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: on grief. Her book, Grief Is Love can be a 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: comfort in times like this. It gives specifics to the unimaginable. 14 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: Something I try to do is to approach hard topics 15 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: in a way that is paired with connection and with happiness. 16 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: I've known Marissa for over a decade, and the lightness 17 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: and the depth that she brings is undeniable. In this conversation, 18 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: we explore grief in all forms with a bit of friendliness. 19 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: During this difficult time. I hope you find solace in 20 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: your loved ones. I pray for peace for all those suffering. 21 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: I'm very excited today to be joined by my real 22 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: life friend, also inspiration, Marisa Renee Lee, author of Grief 23 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 1: is Love, mom, friend to Me, work, friend to Me icon, 24 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: and incredibly a friend who puts it all out there 25 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: in a way that is real but also accessible to 26 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: me when she has gone through so much that I 27 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: don't necessarily know how to process. So I recommend everybody 28 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: look up her Instagram and follow her, read her book 29 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: Grief is Love, And thank you so much for joining 30 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: me in my first real friend bantery of this mini 31 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: episode format. 32 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: Yay. I am super super excited. And one of the 33 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 2: things I was actually thinking about in advance of this 34 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 2: chat is that so much of our friendship developed as 35 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 2: we were going through completely opposite motherhood experiences, Like as 36 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: you were having these beautiful, adorable, lovely children one after 37 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 2: the other, I was dealing with the grief of infertility 38 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: and loss, and like somehow we both managed to show 39 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: up for each other. And I just think it's really 40 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 2: important to share that upfront, because it's something I've been 41 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: really grateful for. 42 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: Well, I give you a lot of credit in that, 43 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: So we got pregnant at the same time with my 44 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: second and with your IVF not your first round. 45 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, but one ended up being the last round, you're right, 46 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 2: but I ended up being the lastest of twenty nineteen. 47 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: So I was so sick and honestly kind of depressed 48 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: that I was pregnant again, thinking how am I ever 49 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: going to get through this? And you were first pregnant 50 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: from that. I'm gonna use terminology wrong, the placing. 51 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 2: Okay, it's okay. I was briefly pregnant, yes, yes, from 52 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: the embryo transfer. Yeah, embryo transfer. 53 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: And we were in that moment, and I remember just 54 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: like not feeling like I could really talk to. 55 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 3: People about it because from the outside. 56 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 1: It was like, oh, you have one little kid and 57 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: you're pregnant, like of course you planned it, of course 58 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: you thought of it. And I was feeling like I 59 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: lost myself and it was really hard for me to 60 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: talk to anybody about it. But you showed up so 61 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: much in that moment, and for then for your pregnancy 62 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: not to have taken the fact that you could then 63 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: continue to show up for me. 64 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 3: I'm not going to cry talking about it, but it 65 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 3: meant so much. 66 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: I think I saw what kind of person you were, 67 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: and the fact that you could still not just be 68 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: happy for me, but be supportive when I wasn't happy. 69 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 2: So it's funny. I have a close friend who's gone 70 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 2: through the loss of a parent. She's also a therapist 71 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: whose work focuses on people usually around our own age, 72 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: who or at the end of their lives, and she 73 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: always says, you know, we don't have to do the 74 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: trauma Olympics, Like grief can be grief no matter what 75 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 2: it is that you're experiencing. You know, like, we don't 76 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 2: have to do this as some sort of a comparison 77 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 2: like I was feeling shitty, you were feeling shitty. They 78 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 2: were very different situations, but like it was grief for 79 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: both of us. And so you know, I became really 80 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 2: thankful for the ways in which you showed up for 81 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 2: me and terms of supporting like my career that was 82 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: becoming more centered around grief, and you know, the ways 83 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 2: you showed up for me personally. And I never thought like, oh, 84 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 2: Emily shouldn't be sad right now, because you know, she 85 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 2: has her pregnancy and she has her child. I more 86 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 2: felt like grief is hard, and I'm glad that I 87 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 2: have this friend who's supportive of me. 88 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: So I want to back up to actually when we 89 00:04:58,120 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: first met, it was because you were working in the 90 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: White House. You were like this big White House boss, 91 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: which was my dream and never ended up achieving. 92 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 3: Was cut short. 93 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: Maybe one that just crazy would probably not but you, 94 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: I mean, what did that feel like to be working 95 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: in the White House? 96 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: Awesome? Probably it was, I mean, it was amazing. I 97 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 2: also tell people it was the hardest work environment you 98 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 2: can imagine, because you're sort of you know, you're thrown 99 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 2: into this job. And in my case, when we met, 100 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 2: I was the Deputy Director of Private Sector Engagement, which 101 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: sounds very fancy and serious, but it was a title 102 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 2: that I came up with for a job that didn't 103 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: exist before I created it. That felt like it was 104 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 2: important and necessary, and so a lot of the time, 105 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 2: you know, you're kind of making it up as you 106 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 2: go along and trying always to keep front and center. 107 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: You know, your values and your commitment to service, but 108 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 2: it's really hard for a young person to figure out 109 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 2: how to navigate the ins and outs of one of 110 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 2: the oldest institutions in the country with virtually no support, 111 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 2: Like I will never stop being grateful for that experience. 112 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: And that was another experience that was rooted in grief. 113 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 2: As you know, my mom passed away in February of 114 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, so same year President Obama was elected, 115 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 2: and a month before she died, I was watching him 116 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 2: give a speech in Kansas about his vision for America 117 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: and like what we could create together, and it was 118 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 2: a hope and just filled me with so much optimism 119 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 2: about the future of our country. And I watched it 120 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 2: from my childhood bedroom while my mom was dying across 121 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 2: the hall, and I decided in that moment, you know, 122 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 2: I'm angry that I'm not able to be on the 123 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 2: campaign and you know, do all these other things, but 124 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 2: eventually I will get there. Like I'm going to find 125 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 2: a way to work for this man because we don't 126 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 2: know how short or long our life is going to be, 127 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 2: and this is something I'm going to prioritize. So yeah, 128 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,799 Speaker 2: it was amazing, and just like everything else in my career, 129 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 2: deeply rooted in grief. 130 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: I feel like those jobs where you have to forge 131 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: your own path end up like they're really hard, but 132 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: end up being the best, Like you really have to 133 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: work for it, like this is not like a check 134 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: in check out kind of thing, but end up being 135 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: the best. 136 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 3: So how did you literally end up in that job? 137 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: It's all I mean. 138 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: It's also not like the federal government is well known 139 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: for like bringing people on a new creative roles. 140 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: No, so well, first of all, I stalked people just 141 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 2: to get my foot in the door. And I started 142 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: out at the Small Business Administration doing work primarily focused 143 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: on increasing access to capital and economic opportunity and underserved communities. 144 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: So you know, black, brown, LATINX women, entrepreneurs, veterans, et cetera. 145 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 2: And I just kept at it, you know, I kept 146 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: putting my hand up and volunteering for new assignments. I 147 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: kept doing extra projects on the side with the White 148 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 2: House in my free time. And one thing led to another, 149 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: and there was a lot of work happen around the 150 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: president's priorities and alignment with the business community, and so 151 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: they needed someone who understood the needs of businesses and 152 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: also the priorities of our administration. And as a former banker, 153 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, it made sense. You know. 154 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 2: There was still a lot of advocating that I had 155 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: to do for myself and a lot of advocating that 156 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: colleagues did on my behalf. But at the end of 157 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 2: the day, it was you know, the hard work, determination 158 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 2: slash stubbornness, and a real commitment to serving our president. 159 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: You know, I wanted to do everything I could to 160 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 2: help this man achieve his streams for our country. 161 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: I feel like that work tactic that you tried of, 162 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: just like raising your hand and taking on projects is 163 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: I mean the best, the absolute best way to do 164 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: it. It works, like it actually works because the people who 165 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: you want to be hiring you know that they're not 166 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: taking a chance on you, like they've seen your work products. 167 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 3: Now that you show up, you're trusted, You're trusted. That is, 168 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 3: by far the way that. 169 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: People get hired on campaigns is you just go to 170 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: your first volunteer, like you go to like the first 171 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: person who's been in the room, and you're like, oh, okay, 172 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: Like I could take a chance on hiring someone when 173 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: I have no idea what the dynamic's going to be, 174 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: I don't know their work ethic, or I can take 175 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: this person who may not know the job exactly, but 176 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: like they get it, like they know how to work 177 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: and I'm familiar with them, and there's not that kind 178 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: of onboarding, and I feel like, even, look, I mean, 179 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: we've both been consultants for like many years now. We've 180 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: talked about this a lot of times. It's like how 181 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: much work do we do for free versus starting to 182 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: get paid and like taking on new clients. We've talked 183 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: about this a lot that like there's no right answer, 184 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: but it is the best way to get to really 185 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: get your foot in the door if you want your 186 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: ideal job, your ideal project, Like, it's kind of the 187 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: best way to do. 188 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: It one hundred percent. Whenever I talk to younger people 189 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 2: about career development and career advancement, I say, don't start 190 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: out by asking for things for yourself, Like, start out 191 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: by asking how you can contribute and finding ways to 192 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 2: serve and support others, because that will naturally come back to, Oh, 193 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 2: we trust her. You know she knows what she's doing, 194 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 2: She's volunteered for X, y Z. Why wouldn't we consider 195 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: her for this next promotion or new opportunity. So lead 196 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 2: with some sense for how you can help someone else, 197 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 2: and it will always end up serving you in your career. 198 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 3: I think totally so I want to fast forward. 199 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: Now. 200 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 3: Do you wrote this book Grief Is Love? How did 201 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 3: the book come about specifically? 202 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 2: Oh girl? The books started almost exactly fifteen years ago 203 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 2: when I lost my mom to breast cancer. And as 204 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: you could probably tell, I'm like very type A on 205 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 2: top of things, I like lists, I like spreadsheets. It 206 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,719 Speaker 2: was very organized around my mom's death and very proactive 207 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 2: around grief, reading the books, doing the research, thinking that 208 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: if I was prepared, I would be fine. And that's 209 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: just not true. Like the loss destroyed me. And it 210 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 2: took a really long time to realize that when we 211 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 2: lose someone we love, we don't get over it. Like 212 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: I don't even know who came up with that concept, 213 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 2: but I would love to just smack them, because it's 214 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 2: not it's not true, it's not possible. And the leading 215 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 2: research around grief and loss is all about learning how 216 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 2: to live with it. And so through both the loss 217 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 2: of my mother and then you know, my IVF journey 218 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 2: and pregnancy loss, I came to realize the very hard 219 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 2: way that learning to live with these things is like 220 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 2: the work of your life, you know, That is what 221 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: healing is really about. That's what this idea of moving 222 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 2: on is about you know, you don't move on alone. 223 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 2: You move on with your people and the experiences and 224 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 2: the love that you shared with them. And so I 225 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: started writing about my theories on grief and loss in 226 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: Earnest in twenty twenty, which was obviously a big year 227 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: of grief for everyone, and an article I wrote that 228 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: Lots of Friends like Yourself Shared went somewhat viral and 229 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 2: led to a book deal. And in Grief as Love, 230 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: I really try to normalize the experience of grief and 231 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: loss for all of us, whether you're someone who has 232 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 2: already gone through it or someone who's trying to support 233 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 2: someone else who's going through it, It's a part of life, 234 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 2: and I want people to know that fundamentally, grief is 235 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 2: the repeated experience of learning to live in the midst 236 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 2: of a significant loss. So whether it's learning to figure out, 237 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 2: you know, in your case, all of those years ago, 238 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 2: how do I manage this grief I'm experiencing around the 239 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 2: loss of my career and the plans that I had 240 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 2: for my life right now, or me trying to figure out, 241 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 2: you know, what does it look like to accept the 242 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 2: fact that I've never given birth naturally and never will, 243 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 2: but I still now today am fortunate to be a 244 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: mom to like this beautiful, perfect adopted child of mine. 245 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's a lived experience, and I hope 246 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 2: that it's helpful for people as they move through grief. 247 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: And he is like the cutest little p ut He's 248 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: just like a little like squishy, like he's so cute. 249 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 2: He's a true he's a true. 250 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: Well, I wonder about this, like, as you're building up 251 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: this grief portfolio. You know, we've talked about how you 252 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: want to make it like much more of your time 253 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: and more of your work, because you're still doing your 254 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: political consulting, like as you're oh yeah, I'm still going 255 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: you know, like as you're writing your book, like as 256 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: you're doing your book tour, like you're speaking to like 257 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: you're still you're still doing it. 258 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 3: So like, how how do you. 259 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: Actually make it not profit profitable is not the right word, 260 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: but like sustainable for you to do, like for it 261 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: to take up more of your time and like more 262 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: of your band with like realistically, like functionally, how do 263 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: you make it work? And then I also wonder I've 264 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: actually wondered about this for you, how do you stay 265 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: in the grief all the time, because the thing that 266 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 1: you're talking about is the. 267 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 3: Hardest part of your life. 268 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you want to do it more so like 269 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: are you okay? 270 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 3: Like how are you doing that? 271 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: Yeah? No, that's that's a really good question. So I 272 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: have reframed my work. Even though yes, it is very 273 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 2: much about grief and loss, I tend to think of 274 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: it as being about healing and resilience because fundamentally, you know, 275 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 2: I don't want people to stay sad, like I don't 276 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: want people to stay stuck in the worst and hardest 277 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: parts of grief because they're fucking terrible, Like they're awful, 278 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: They're so so awful. What I want is for people 279 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 2: to get comfortable acknowledging the hard parts that continue to 280 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: come up as you live your life. You know, when 281 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 2: we were fortunate enough to you know, get the call 282 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: about this baby and become parents in less than twenty 283 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 2: four hours, it was like the most amazing, joyful, magical experience, 284 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 2: But there was also grief in it, you know, like 285 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: I wanted my mom there to help me, Like, you 286 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: know how overwhelming it is to suddenly have a newborn 287 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 2: and to be handed a baby that's two days old. 288 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 2: With nothing, like we had nothing Emily, like, everything for 289 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 2: this child came from other people getting organized, sending us 290 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: something for him to sleep in, you know, sending diapers 291 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 2: and orders from Target and the grocery store to our airbnb. 292 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 2: But like, at the end of the day, I also 293 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 2: wanted that mom help and there was none of that, 294 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 2: and it was really hard. And so what I want 295 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 2: is to be able to use my story and my 296 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 2: experiences and the leading research to help people live with 297 00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 2: those moments. And so I'm okay into doing more of 298 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 2: that work because fundamentally it makes me feel like there 299 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 2: is more meaning and purpose to the really hard things 300 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 2: that I've gone through. So that that's kind of how 301 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 2: I rationalize it. But I'll tell you I did. I 302 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 2: did a three hour like grief and sort of processing, healing, 303 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 2: leaning into joy type session for a nonprofit organization that 304 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: deals with grief regularly, both the loss of students. They've 305 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: had a number of recent and very unexpected losses in 306 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 2: their staff. And it was hard. You know, it was 307 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 2: three hours of talking about it, listening to people crying, 308 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 2: you know, people trying to support each other. And after that, like, 309 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 2: I need a nap. I can't like, I definitely absorb it. 310 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 2: That's just the kind of person that I am. And 311 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 2: I don't know who would go through that kind of 312 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 2: work and not absorb it. And so I try to 313 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 2: be really intentional about building and breaks and time for 314 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: care for myself because otherwise I. 315 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 1: Can't do this work that totally makes sense to me. 316 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: So over the years you've been a sounding board for me, 317 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: and now with your work, I can just read it, 318 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: which is so nice that I have you accessible to 319 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: me all of the time. But I have not gone 320 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: through the significant losses that you have, and so it's 321 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 1: intimidating for me to talk to people who have, and like, 322 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure how to do it. And I 323 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: think that sometimes people see your work and it's intimidating. 324 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 3: If they have gone through it, they think it's going 325 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 3: to bring it back up, or if they haven't. 326 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: Gone through it, it's intimidating because they think it's not 327 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: for them. And one of the kind of sad losses 328 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: of my life has been the losses of friendships, where 329 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: you know, as we're getting older, like we have more 330 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: and more of these close losses in our lives, and 331 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: I have not shown up for my friends in the 332 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: way that they needed me to, and then I've the 333 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: friendship just couldn't survive it. 334 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 3: So that's real. 335 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: What advice do you give to people on my side 336 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: of this on how to be showing up for their 337 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: friends when they can't actually empathize, Like they can only sympathize. 338 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 2: They haven't been through the experience. 339 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 340 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 2: So the big thing that I always say, and I 341 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 2: know that this gets people really hung up. You know, 342 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 2: I don't know what to say, Like the worst thing 343 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 2: just happened to somebody that I care about, and like, 344 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 2: I don't know what to say. And the reason why 345 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 2: you don't know what to say is because there is 346 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 2: no right thing or perfect thing to say. And I 347 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 2: say that as a person who's got hundreds of words 348 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 2: in a book about grief and has been through it 349 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 2: a bunch of times. And the reason why there's no 350 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 2: right thing to say is because the worst thing has 351 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: just happened to someone. And so I encourage people to 352 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 2: just put the words aside, and again saying this as 353 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 2: a writer, forget about your words and take action. And 354 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 2: action can take a lot of different forms, you know, people, 355 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 2: when we've gone through our losses, it's everything from like 356 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 2: me to takeing care of our dog to a bunch 357 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 2: of my girlfriends got together knowing how devastating the pregnancy 358 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 2: loss was, and they pulled a bunch of money and 359 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 2: gave us a gift certificate to the Four Seasons because 360 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 2: they were like, not only do you guys need a vacation, 361 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 2: but you need like a fancy, bougie break from reality 362 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,239 Speaker 2: type vacation. And it was the most thoughtful thing. 363 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: You know. 364 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: I've received wine and cheese boxes, but like, I've also 365 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 2: gotten practical help from people. You know, our mutual friend 366 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 2: Chris Cormier, who's also in this political consulting space, when 367 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 2: I went through my pregnancy loss, like he literally just 368 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: took work away from me. You know, he knew projects 369 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 2: that I was working on because we share some clients, 370 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 2: and he just just took them, you know, didn't ask, 371 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 2: just took it. Like even I think about things that 372 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 2: you've done to support my work, Like when I was 373 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 2: doing the series with Glamour and you made the connection 374 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 2: to Corey Booker so that I could interview him live 375 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 2: for the series on Grief. Like, there are so many 376 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 2: ways to show up for people, but I do think 377 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 2: the most effective ones are rooted in action, not words. 378 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 2: So I just I want people to let go of 379 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 2: being intimidated, because it is intimidating, Like it's death, it's 380 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 2: a lot, it's hard, it's heavy. So just do something 381 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 2: that feels right to you to help them. 382 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: That really resonates of something that feels something that feels 383 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 1: right to you and something that feels doable. 384 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, don't overthink it. Like it can either be rooted 385 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: in your experiences and like what supports someone maybe be 386 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: pro frided to you at some point. It can be 387 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 2: rooted in like what assets and you know, relationships and 388 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 2: things you can bring to the table. It can also 389 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 2: be rooted in and this is one of the ones 390 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 2: that I have found most meaningful when people do something 391 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 2: that like gets at the core of who I am 392 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,479 Speaker 2: independent of this loss. You know, like someone sent me 393 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 2: a box of cheeses and like fancy snacks from Murray's 394 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 2: in the West Village because it's one of my favorite 395 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 2: stores like in the world, and that you know, like 396 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,959 Speaker 2: when you if I had sustained that pregnancy, I wouldn't 397 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 2: have been able to eat all of those fancy cheeses. 398 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 2: So it was. 399 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: Also practical in some way, and because she solves everything, 400 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: it really does. 401 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 2: Like a good snack and a glass of bourbon, like 402 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 2: really do go a long way. 403 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: So I'm going to ask the question I ask all 404 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 1: of my Pivot guests, which is, what is one thing 405 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: in your life that at the time you thought it 406 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: was like really low, but then in retrospect you look 407 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: back and it kind of set you up for success? 408 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 2: Gosh, I mean, lord, there have been so many. I 409 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 2: would say for me in terms of like recent history, 410 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 2: it would have to be our pregnancy lost like it was. 411 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 2: It was awful. It was one of the lowest and 412 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 2: most depressing times in my life. But now I look 413 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 2: at the child that I have, and I also look 414 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 2: at the book that came out of that experience, and 415 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 2: I don't want to say it set me up for success, 416 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 2: but it absolutely enabled things that might not have happened 417 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 2: otherwise that I'm incredibly grateful for. 418 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: And I think perspective means to speak for you, but 419 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 1: I think perspective change a little bit as well. 420 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 3: Not that you needed perspective after what you've been through. 421 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: Already, but I think that it it just I don't 422 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: know how to articulate it, but it like changed. 423 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: It shifted so many things for me. It shifted so 424 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 2: many things for me, and I learned so many things 425 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: from that experience. Like as horrible as it was, and 426 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 2: I do not wish to repeat it or anything, but 427 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 2: it was, it was incredibly valuable. 428 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 1: I think I also, having lived that moment with you, 429 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: I think I also remember there being like a shift 430 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: in mindset to I'm not sure if adoption is the 431 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: way that I'll become a parent to I now see 432 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: this as a realistic way to become a parent one 433 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: hundred percent. 434 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 3: And he's gorgeous, and congratulations. 435 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: Thank you well, thank you so much for joining our 436 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: conversational minisodes. 437 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 3: It's so good to have you on. 438 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 439 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: Marissa is continuing her work on grief and she is 440 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: relaunching her book on paperback this week. I'm so looking 441 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: forward to celebrating with her and one of our other guests, 442 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: Emily Oster, next week at their event. If you're in 443 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: the New York area and want to stop by, you 444 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: can find more info on our Instagram at she Pivots 445 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: the Podcast. Thanks for listening to this candid convo episode 446 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,479 Speaker 1: of she Pivots. This is actually our last candid convo 447 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: of this season because next week is our season finale. 448 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: It's bittersweet, but I'm so ready for you all to 449 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: hear my conversation with a very exciting guest. It's a 450 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: secret for now, but I wonder if you can guess 451 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: who it might be. Be sure to follow us on 452 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: Instagram at she pivots the podcast for some clues and 453 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: leave a rating and comment if you enjoyed this episode 454 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: to help others learn about it. A special thank you 455 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: to our partner Marie Clair and the team that made 456 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: this episode possible. Talk to you next week. She Pivots 457 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,719 Speaker 1: is hosted by me Emily Tish Sussman, produced by Emily 458 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: Eda Voloshik, with sound editing and mixing from Nina Pollock 459 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: and research and planning from Christine Dickinson and Hannah Cousins. 460 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 2: I endorse Che Pizzots.