1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've got to 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: wine it bed because it's going to put up a fight. Hello, 3 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: and welcome to Stephanomics, the podcast that brings the global 4 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: economy to you. Well, what can we possibly talk about 5 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: this week? Well, it's fair to say that we don't 6 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: yet have a complete picture of exactly he'll be controlling 7 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: the main levers of US government for the next four years. 8 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: But we can probably say the Democrats have not swept 9 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: the table, which has implications for the kind of radical 10 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: changes we might expect to see in US policies over 11 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: the next four years. But before getting into what could 12 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: be an agenda for the future, what about the past? 13 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: How has President Trump's four years changed the US economy 14 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: and its impact on the rest of the world. Well, 15 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: this week I'm going to discuss that with two very 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: wise economists in a moment, the author economist and Bloomberg 17 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: columnist Tyler Cohen, professor of economics at George Mason University. 18 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: But first, Randall Krosner, former Federal Reserve Governor and professor 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: of economics at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: Now I should say he's speaking to us from the 21 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: streets of London, just outside their London campus, if you can, 22 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: if you're trying to work out what some of the 23 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: noises are during the conversation. But Randy, thank you very 24 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: much for joining us. How would you say President Trump 25 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: had changed the US economy in the last four years? 26 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: What's what difference has he made? I think he's made 27 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: quite a difference. I think there's been a dramatic difference 28 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: in the approach to the global trade, in particular to 29 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: trade with with China. Really emphasizing the concerns about intellectual property, 30 00:01:54,720 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: about about potential for unfair trade practices and really brought 31 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: that to the fore in a way that had not 32 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: been there before in the US or elsewhere. And I 33 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: think it's really changed the global discussion on that. You 34 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: can agree or disagree, but I think, um, whether it 35 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: is a Trump administration or a Biden administration going forward, UM, 36 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: I think there's gonna be a lot of tension trade 37 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: with China. Second area that I think he made a 38 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: major change is with respect to taxes UH significant reduction 39 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 1: corporate taxes UH. US corporate tax rates had stayed pretty 40 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: much where they were for a long time whereas most 41 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: of the the others, like here in the UK or 42 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: in continental Europe, and most of the major major competitors 43 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: have been reducing corporate taxes over time. So that was 44 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: an important second important change. I think the third important 45 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: change is related to at a climate and green energy, 46 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: and clearly the president withdrawing from the Paris Accord and 47 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: taking a very different view of green energy than President 48 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: Obama had and Vice President Biden had, that was a 49 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: big change. So I think three major changes. And as 50 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: an economist, what would you look at now and consider 51 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: to be the best feature of the great the most 52 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: positive contribution that the president had made to America's future 53 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: growth and prosperity. I do think the tax reforms helped 54 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: us to move a little bit closer to a more 55 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: sensible system of taxation of corporate income, that, all of 56 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: the things being equal, was was a positive. Is it 57 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: as far as I would have liked to have gone. No. 58 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: Is it as full of reform? No? But it was 59 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: a step in the right direction. So that's interesting because 60 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: of course there's a lot of perception that the tax 61 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: cuts predominantly benefited the rich and big corporations. But you 62 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: would say that it's not gone far enough. So my 63 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: focus as primarily on the on the corporate side to 64 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: try to focus on increasing investment because we've had not 65 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: as much investment as as we would have liked. That's 66 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: a global phenomena, it's not unique to the US and UH, 67 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: and trying to improve incentives for firms to invest and 68 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: invest in the United States is valuable. The previous tax 69 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: system had these diverse incentives that led to so called 70 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: inversions of companies trying to move their domicile out of 71 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: the US to places like Ireland and elsewhere that had 72 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: very low taxes. UH. That certainly had no benefit for 73 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: the US. A lot of corporations were holding hundreds of 74 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: billions of dollars offshore because of the way the tax 75 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: system worked, and this helped to reduce some of those 76 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 1: those disincentives. As I said, did they go far enough 77 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: to solve the issues and UH and give us, you know, 78 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: a spiked productivity growth? No? Was it a step in 79 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: the right direction. Yes, that's funny. We're gonna think a 80 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: bit later on. We're going to discuss one of the 81 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: potential reasons why we have that shortfall in investment. But 82 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: I'll leave people hanging for that answer. Um, And if 83 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: you have to ask you what you most want to 84 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: change from an economic standpoint, what what do you think 85 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: was most damaging to America's future prosperity potentially? So, I 86 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: think that the key would be to really have a 87 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: very clear focus on a pro growth and productivity growth 88 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: agenda and uh and I think there were a lot 89 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: of distractions from something something like that and that was 90 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: I think that would be the biggest benefit going forward, 91 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: regardless of whether it's Republicans or Democrats. I think there's 92 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: certainly a number of things that people on both sides 93 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: of the aisle could agree with. And if you have 94 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: higher productivity, growth, higher investment, that then leads to the 95 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: higher wages. And as someone who had has sat as 96 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: a policymaker in the Federal Reserve, I have to ask 97 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: you how you feel the FED has fared over the 98 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: last four years. I mean, we're familiar with the actions 99 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: has had to take in response of the COVID crisis, 100 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: but we've also seen it become much more subject of 101 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: political attacks and more of a politicized institution despite its 102 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: best efforts. Do you think that's something that needs to 103 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: change or has put the FED in a in a 104 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: risky position going forward. I think the FED is always 105 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: in the political cross hairs. I was there during the 106 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: global financial crisis, and certainly there were a number of 107 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: political actors who were suggesting quite strongly things that we 108 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: should or shouldn't be doing. So I don't think it's 109 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: it's new to the FED to to come under political 110 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: scrutiny and political pressure. I think one of the interesting 111 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: things is an unintended consequence of the reforms that so 112 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: called Dodd Frank reforms that came after the after the 113 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: global financial crisis. UM, it required that for the FED 114 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: to do the emergency programs that they had done when 115 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: I was there without asking Treasuries permission, now requires sign 116 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,679 Speaker 1: off from the Secretary of Treasury. There was a concern 117 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: that would slow the FED down and be able to 118 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: respond to a crisis. Obviously, the FED responded very rapidly 119 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: and uh and very boldly. And what's interesting is that, UM, 120 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: I think the Congress is now when the appropriate money 121 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: for doing certain programs, they say to the Treasury, will 122 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: here's some money, who work with the FED to turn 123 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: that into a particular program, like a main street lending 124 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: program or other programs like that. So I think what's 125 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: interesting is that an unintended consequence of UH of the 126 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: DoD frank has not been to just slow down the response, 127 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: but to have more direct um direction from the members 128 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: of Congress as to what the FED should be doing 129 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: in a crisis. And of course, I mean the FED 130 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: purists would say that's a disaster because you don't want it. 131 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: You're sort of chipping away at the Fed's independent But 132 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: the other view would be that it makes them more 133 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: accountable to ultimately the elected leadership of the country. Where 134 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: do you stand on Yeah, so it's difficult to get 135 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: the balance right. It's got to be accountability, and certainly 136 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: in a crisis it's important for all hands to be 137 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: on deck, whether it's the Treasury, whether it's Congress, whether 138 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: it's the FED, and trying to be coordinated. So I 139 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: think that's UH. You know, it's important to have that 140 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: sort of united united front and have that kind of coordination. 141 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: The question is, in the longer run, does that interfere 142 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: with the ability of the FED to step back to 143 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: take back some of the UH the programs that they 144 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: had had put forward when the economy begins to recover 145 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: if they If that becomes difficult, that's really problematic, because 146 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: then that would likely lead to an inflation outcome that 147 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: I think no one ultimately wants. UM, But sometimes it's 148 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: difficult for the political actors to to see those intermediate 149 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: to longer run consequences when they want to maintain credit 150 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: flowing to a particular sector. I mean, one thing that 151 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: the FED did end up doing UM, which also supported 152 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: the stock market, which is obviously a big focus for 153 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: President Trump, was making these quite sort of big promises 154 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: about buying junk bonds and supporting corporate lending at that level, 155 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: which I think sort of raised a few eyebrows that 156 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: to have the FED in effectively propping up that bit 157 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: of the market as well as somehow implicated in supporting 158 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: the stock market generally. Do you think that the Fed's 159 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: called itself into a difficult position there. I think there 160 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: are two pieces of it. One is, if they see 161 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: the markets not functioning properly, they're going to intervene, and 162 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: they should intervene to make sure there isn't a total 163 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: meltdown that happened a decade ago. That also happened in 164 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: March of this year when the FED intervened, provided liquidity, 165 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: provided um uh U s dollar credit globally to other 166 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: central banks, and that took away what I call a 167 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: market dysfunction discount UM. And so that is something that 168 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: I think is appropriate for or for central banks to 169 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: be doing the challenges. They have now gotten into areas 170 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: that we had not gotten to when I was there 171 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: a decade ago, um taking effectively more risk because they 172 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: are getting into lower rated securities, doing some direct lending. 173 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: And the question will come when there potentially some losses 174 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: associated with that. The programs that the FED did while 175 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: I was there, we didn't have have losses associated with those. 176 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: Um if there are losses, even though in some sense 177 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: that's what the Congress wanted. If they want the FED 178 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 1: to lend where banks otherwise wouldn't lend, they're directing them 179 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: to take on more risk than otherwise would have been 180 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: the case because the private sector wasn't doing that. But 181 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: then when the losses occur, no one wants to bear 182 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: those losses, and so there will be a lot of 183 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: a lot of finger pointing and questions about well, why 184 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: did you take those kinds of risks? And and so 185 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: I think that's going to be one of the tensions 186 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: going forward if we turn to the future briefly, there 187 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: is there has been a fewest political debate about whether 188 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: and how much fiscal stimulus is needed for the US 189 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,599 Speaker 1: to to make sure that it doesn't go into another recession. 190 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: Would you be worried about the short term outlook for 191 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: the US economy if it wasn't possible to pass another stimulus. 192 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: I think the key is really where the money is spent. 193 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: I know there's been a debate over two trillion versus 194 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: three trillion um that the Trump administration and the Republics 195 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: I proposed to true trillion. That wasn't enough where the 196 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: members of the House, these are very large numbers. And uh, 197 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: and I think it's not just you know, when you're 198 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: in that realm, it's not two versus three trillion, but 199 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: how are you spending it? And and I think the 200 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: most important thing is to try to UM build databases 201 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: and get data on where are the worthy infections and 202 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: then do track and trace so that you can quickly respond. 203 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 1: That's the most effective way to try to save lives 204 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: and save livelihoods. Unfortunately, very little of the previous UM 205 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: stimulus packages were focused on the health issues directly focused 206 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: on the data collection and data dissemination issues, track and trace, 207 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: those kinds of things. So I think it's it's more 208 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: about how you're spending it, um, you know, given that, 209 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 1: I think both sides will want to spend a fair 210 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: amount of money rather than the specific number, given that 211 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: it's it's quite a large, quite a large amount. There's 212 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: a Randall Crosner, thanks very much, Thank you very much, 213 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: Tyler Code. We don't know what's going to happen, or 214 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: we don't know exactly what's going to happen. It does 215 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: look like the Democrats have not swept the board, shall 216 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: we say, um, So we're possibly that may limit the 217 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: scale of the changes we might see over the next 218 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: four years. But if we're just stepping back and looking 219 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: at the last your four years, how has Donald Trump 220 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: changed the economy? What's one of the big things that 221 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 1: will stand out for historians. I think the biggest thing 222 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: that will stand out is that he didn't change the 223 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: economy much at all. In fact, so there was a recovery. 224 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: He oversaw that the recovery in some ways accelerated. That 225 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: was good news. COVID is a separate story. Obviously, it 226 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: hit the economy. But I'm not sure how much that 227 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: will be connected with Trump, because it's happened to the 228 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: whole world. So Trump will be seen as important in 229 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 1: the realm of ideas more than the realm of economics. 230 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: And what if you were going to pick one good thing, 231 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: maybe one bit good shift that happened, at least in 232 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: part as a result of his actions, that might have 233 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: helped America's future prosperity, what would you what would you 234 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: point to? I bet he would look at the stock market, 235 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: But what would you look at Operation warp speed accelerating 236 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: the progress of the vaccine. It's been pretty phenomen and 237 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: all Trump gets some of the credit for that. People 238 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: underrate that. And what do you think for someone coming in, 239 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: anybody coming in, what would you most want to reverse 240 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: or what would you start want to start to push 241 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: against you for the long term good of the country economically, 242 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: Starting in January, we had two full months to prepare 243 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: for the pandemic and essentially did nothing, and that also 244 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: hurt our economy greatly. That was completely our own stupidity 245 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: and own goal, partly the fault of our president, though 246 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: not only. And if we could do that over again, 247 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: we'd be in a much better position right now when 248 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: you're looking back at um this potential scarring of the 249 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: COVID recession. You know, we look in Europe and we think, well, 250 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: potentially the US with its more flexible labor market with 251 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: only without the sort of furlough scheme, so that lots 252 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: of people, although they had higher benefits, they were thrown 253 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: into unemployment m forced to fend for themselves elves. There's 254 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: some expectation that maybe the adjustment in the economy would 255 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: be faster once we start moving away from the pandemic, 256 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: and the scarring will be less in the US. Do 257 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: you buy that or do you think there is a 258 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: lot of scarring that's now baked into the impact of 259 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: this recession. Well, both are true. There's a lot of scarring, 260 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: but it's much worse than Europe. I don't think that's 261 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: a hypothetical. I think we already see it. So Americans 262 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: have learned to live with a certain level of COVID 263 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: that's quite unfortunate in many ways. But I don't think 264 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: we'll have the snap back in terms of expectations and 265 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: retail sales that we're seeing in so much of Western Europe. 266 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: We've had a steadier course for our pandemic. And you 267 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: mentioned that Trump inherited a pretty nice economy. Clearly the 268 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: next four years that whoever inherits the White House is 269 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: not going to be looking at as as good a picture. 270 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: How would one play? I mean, what's what are the 271 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: what are the priorities for whatever? So whichever side you're on, 272 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: fighting back the pandemic is the number one priority. Getting 273 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: a vaccine out there distributed in a safe, effective and 274 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: timely manner. That won't be easy, even if you're a 275 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: big optimist on the biomedical front, Convincing enough Americans to 276 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: take it, setting up the distribution networks that would be 277 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: a challenge to any leader of any country. I think 278 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: we'll do okay, but we'll see. And if there's no 279 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: scope for stimulus, if we get good luck. Mitch McConnell 280 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: has already said he wants there to be stimulus. Now. 281 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: The devil is in the details. But I think there 282 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: are political gains from trade and we'll no soon enough 283 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: who has one what. I think there'll be a deal 284 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: right away. It won't be what I would choose, but 285 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: we'll get something and pretty soon. And you don't think 286 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: the risk. I mean, at this stage one might say 287 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: that that the beginning is a kind of shock and 288 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: are approach to fiscal stimulus that you need a lot 289 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: of money quickly and get money into households hands, which 290 00:16:55,040 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: arguably the first stimulus package did. Um that this age, 291 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: when you're in a bit more of a kind of 292 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: mature form of recovery or hope hopeful recovery, where the 293 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: money goes is more important. Would you buy that? I 294 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: would look at it a little differently. If you think 295 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: we might be able to start distributing a vaccine by 296 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: say January or February, you want to redirect stimulus to 297 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: areas that need a very immediate you know, tiding over 298 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: that might be some state in local governments. But then 299 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 1: you do in fact need much less stimulus compared to 300 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: say what was required in March. So it interacts with 301 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: the biomedical side, and we may be at the point 302 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: where we're trying to patch holes. We we can't solve 303 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: all of the problems. And finally we we talked to 304 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: Reddy Crossner earlier about where the FED comes out of 305 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: the first four years of Trump. Do you think the 306 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: FED is in a sort of more more perilous position 307 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: given the UM. Now it's so strongly associated with Trump's 308 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: efforts to support the stock market, and has UM really 309 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: gone out of a limb to support the economy buying 310 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: up chunk junk bonds and other things. This year, I 311 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: think the FED, Amazon, and the NBA have proven themselves 312 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: to be the truly well functioning institutions in America. The 313 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: FED didn't even have to use up all of its 314 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: lines of credit. And let's hope they're standing ready next 315 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 1: time around. Tyler Cone, thank you very much. Thank you. 316 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: M Now you'll remember that one of the facts about 317 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: President Trump's four years in office that he's most proud 318 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: about is what's happened to the stock market. The SMP 319 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: five hundred index has risen fifty since he took office. 320 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 1: It's not the highest ever return, as he might often claim. 321 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: In fact, the same index rose in President Clinton's first 322 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: four years in the But here's one way that Trump's 323 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: stock market rally really is different, because it rests on 324 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,719 Speaker 1: the value of assets that you can't see and you 325 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: can't touch. If you sold all of the physical assets 326 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: tangible assets in those SMP five companies, you'd only get 327 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: to about a fifth of the supposed market value. Everything else, 328 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: that's about twenty two trillion dollars worth of market capitalization 329 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: comes from intangible assets like algorithms or lists or brands, 330 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: a lot of invisible assets. We had a fascinating story 331 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 1: about this on Bloomberg recently, written by reporter Sarah Ponsek, 332 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: and I wanted to dig into it because it seemed 333 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: to me to have so many implications for the US 334 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: economy and for policymakers everywhere and here. To talk to 335 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: us about some of those implications is New York University 336 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: professor barru Clev, whose writings on this topic have spurred 337 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: something of a debate on intangible assets. Professor Lev, thank 338 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 1: you very much for joining us. I should start by 339 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: asking you, is there's a Is this a new phenomenon 340 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: that quite so much of the value of our the 341 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 1: US major stock market is actually is intangible assets. It's 342 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: definitely not a new phenomenon, and it's at least twenty 343 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 1: five even thirty years. It really started in the mid 344 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: eighties when investment in intangibles, meaning investment in research and 345 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: developments and information technology, brand human resources so passed in 346 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: the United States. Investment intangible assets thinks that when they 347 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: fall you can hear them. The traditional investments machines, structures, 348 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,479 Speaker 1: and so on and so on, and the gap between 349 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: the two is growing. Today. Investment in intangibles in the 350 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: United States annually is the staggering sum of about two 351 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: and a half trillion. With the t trillion dollars investment 352 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: intangibles is about t off it. So it's a complete 353 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: transformation of the US economy and to to a large extent, 354 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: others economy is to definitely the UK, China, to some 355 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: to some extent North European countries and so on and 356 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: so on. So it's a it's it's an incredible transformation 357 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: with lots and lots of consequences positive and negative. And 358 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: I like your your definition of the of a physical asset. 359 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: I remember when we were thinking about the difference between 360 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: goods and services when I was just learning economics, and 361 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: and a good was something you could drop on your foot. 362 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: But it's certainly true the intangible assets you can't drop 363 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: on your on your foot. Now, one of the things 364 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: that people have highlighted as a really serious implication of 365 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: this and why it's so important for our economy, is 366 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 1: that it has contributed to rising inequality. I know this 367 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: is complicated, but what is the read across from the two. 368 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: Why does it Why does not having physical assets like 369 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: factories make it more likely that the profits from these 370 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: companies will be concentrated in fewer hands. Those intangible assets 371 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: like patterns and music and content things like that have 372 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: many qualities which differentiate them from tangible assets. But the 373 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: main one is what the economy is called scalability. And 374 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: airline can sell a seat on an airplane to only 375 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: one person per flight, but if you are selling drugs, 376 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 1: if you are selling software, if you are selling music, 377 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: you can add this same time sent to millions and 378 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: millions of companies. The skies really limits. That's the scalability 379 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: of intangible assets. That's what creates the enormous profitability their 380 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: normals size. And I want to emphasize and not just 381 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 1: speaking about Apple or Google or Amazon. We all know 382 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: that these are gigantic, historically gigantic companies. I'm speaking about 383 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: hundreds and thousands of companies that are reaching intangibles. Intangibles 384 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: have all kinds of advantages spoke about. They create huge profits, size, 385 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: some of them dominate, many of them dominate market but 386 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: they have a dark side, and the dark side is 387 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: that it's very, very difficult to manage and developed intangibles. 388 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: Those who are intensive in intangibles need very very skilled employees. 389 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: And I don't mean just at the top. I mean 390 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: they need are and the scientists. They need software engineers, 391 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: they need content creators, they need patent experts, they need 392 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: sales persons. All of these people are handsomely paid, not 393 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: because the companies are good out but because they're highly skilled. 394 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: So the intangibles, the complexity of the task, the need 395 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: for very skilled people is a major reason for income inequality. 396 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: Economy is estimated that about two thirds of income inequality 397 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: comes from this fact. I guess what you're talking about, 398 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: an essence, This is there's sort of two big things 399 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: that contribute to the inequality. The scalability of these assets. 400 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: The fact that you can produce you can sell unlimited 401 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,479 Speaker 1: amounts at some level rather than this scarce supply of 402 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: airline seats as your example. Um it can make it 403 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 1: a very very profitable company for a very small input 404 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: of labor and physical investment. Um So, and that says 405 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: very unlabor intensive, but you can make a lot of money, 406 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: which could go to a relatively small number of people. 407 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: I guess that's one part of it. And then the 408 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: other part is what you've been saying about their reliance 409 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: on super skilled people who will themselves need to be 410 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,239 Speaker 1: highly paid to be to hold onto them. Is that 411 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 1: would you say that's about this sort of is the 412 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: two pieces. It's the sort of scalability and therefore the 413 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: potential for very high profits for a very small number 414 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 1: of people, but also the highly skill I would take 415 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 1: one small except it's not a small number of people. 416 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: I mean if you look at if you look at 417 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:10,959 Speaker 1: large tech companies like Google and Amazon, they employ hundreds 418 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 1: of thousands of employees. It's not just a few. And 419 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: that's that's that's the major effect on incomil equality. It's 420 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: not just at the top of one tenth of one percent. 421 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: We are speaking about millions of people who are really 422 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: highly highly paid because those intangible intensive companies employ lots 423 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: and lots of of people. But the number of people 424 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: who are employed by by others is of course even 425 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 1: larger than that, and they are less skilled and much 426 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: less paid. In this case, I guess the example that 427 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: people have in their minds is when you have a 428 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: beginning of one of those companies where the market value 429 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: can be extraordinary. And you really are just talking about 430 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: a single office full of people. But what you're saying 431 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: is that most of the story is actually once these 432 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: companies have got big. Yeah. Yeah. The fact is. The 433 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: fact is if you look at sizes of companies, the 434 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: big get bigger, and the small stagnates. That's the said 435 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: thing about it. Most of the small and I'm talking 436 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: about thousands of companies, not a few, most most of 437 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: the small stagnate in size, stagnate in profitability, many of 438 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: them are losing money. They can el afford investment in 439 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: new technology, investment, high skilled employees. You have a whole 440 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: huge sector there that is really doomed to a continue struggling, 441 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 1: just continuous struggling. And we're thinking in part on this 442 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 1: program about what some of the policy challenges are for 443 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 1: the next four years. And I wonder, I mean, the 444 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: the basic rules that most companies have, the way that 445 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: accounts are designed and companies are taxed and and regulated, 446 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: were made for a time which a much bigger proportion 447 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: of a company's value was in things that you could 448 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: you could see and touch. Do you think there are 449 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: there are changes that policymakers could make or should make 450 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: um for us to for these for these companies to thrive, 451 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: but also perhaps not contributing quite the same way to inequality. 452 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: I'm not a great believer of philosophically in government intercasion 453 00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: in the regulation. I am in Old Chicago, a PhD professor, 454 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: UH there for several years. I can think of several 455 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: things that will decrease significantly the income inequality. Basically being 456 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: an educator or university educator all my life training, training, 457 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: training is my motto. For example, all those young people 458 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: at colleges and universities all over the world, My my 459 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: suggestion for you is, don't spend your time on useless courses. Uh, 460 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: spend it on something that you can transform into a 461 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: skill that will be demanded. And I'm not just speaking 462 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: about social engineers. I'm speaking about content creators and and 463 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: brand men managers. There is a whole slew of things 464 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: that will will prob will enable you to become skilled persons. 465 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: I just thinking about the gap with governments and do 466 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: massive investment in vocational schools very important, Professor lev thank 467 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: you very much for joining us. Thank you, thanks for listening. 468 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: To Stephanomics. We'll be back next week with more on 469 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: the ground reporting and analysis about the global economy. Remember 470 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: you can always find us on the Bloomberg terminal, website, app, 471 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcast. You can also get 472 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: more news and analysis from Bloomberg Economics right through the 473 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: week by following as Economics on Twitter. This episode was 474 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: produced by Magnus Hendrickson, with special thanks to Randy Krosner, 475 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: Tyler Cohen, and baroque lev Lucy Meekin is the executive 476 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: producer of Stephanos and the head of Bloomberg Podcast is 477 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: Francesco Levia.