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Speaker 1: Hmm, what's lansing my boils? I'm Robert Evans. This is

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Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards, the show where I talk about terrible

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Speaker 1: people and try out a new intro every week. Sharine,

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Speaker 1: what what did you think of that one? Is that?

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Speaker 1: Is that a winner? Yeah? I'm cringing just so. I

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Speaker 1: think an emotional reaction is what you wanted, and you've

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Speaker 1: got it. Yeah. Yeah, and we've we've done extensive market

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Speaker 1: testing and our our listeners are are huge fans of

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Speaker 1: boils and in lansings of boils. Uh, Sophie. Sophie brought

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Speaker 1: that info to me last week, so we're trying to

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Speaker 1: play to that demo. Yeah, I mean, I haven't thought

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Speaker 1: about boils in a long time. I'm glad you brought

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Speaker 1: that back to my to my attention. You know that

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Speaker 1: they're they're disgusting. Make boils be on Sharine's mind again.

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Speaker 1: I suppose we've kind of spoiled the fact that our

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Speaker 1: guest today is is Sharine Lanna Units from the Ethnically

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Speaker 1: Ambiguous podcast. Sharine, you've got any other plugs to plug

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Speaker 1: up at the start? That's me. That's all I got.

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Speaker 1: Follow me on the socials and that's all about that's

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Speaker 1: about it. Here six there we go, follow Sharine on

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Speaker 1: the socials. Now Sharine, Today we're talking about the payday

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Speaker 1: loan industry. Have you ever had to use a payday loan? Uh? Fortunately? No,

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Speaker 1: good good, I have not either. Um. It's a it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a pretty messed up thing. And today we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about it for like an hour or so.

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Speaker 1: So I cannot wait for you to teach me all

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Speaker 1: about this thing I know nothing about. Excellent. Well, everyone buckling,

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Speaker 1: strap your strap, your listening chairs on, throw on your

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Speaker 1: you're here in goggles, and uh, prepare to be taken

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Speaker 1: on a journey into the payday loan industry. That was

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Speaker 1: That was beautiful. Thank you, thank'd The Magic school Bus. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I like to think of every episode of this show

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Speaker 1: as like an episode of the Magic school Bus. But

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Speaker 1: Miss Frizzle is drunk and abusive. Um, are you saying

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Speaker 1: that you are drunken abusive? Yes? Oh, and you're imagine

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Speaker 1: that Miss Frizzle is drunk abusive and just has a gun. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I do, I do have a yeah, but no, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I hope that the rest of the audience is kind

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Speaker 1: of not the most informed about this topic because I

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Speaker 1: kind of like being a pleab surrounded by pleabs, and

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Speaker 1: you can be the misfrizzle, you know. Yeah, and I was.

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Speaker 1: I was the pleab until about seventy two hours ago

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Speaker 1: when I started reading about this. So, yeah, exactly, this

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Speaker 1: is the This is the slightly less blind leading the

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Speaker 1: blind into the land of eyeglasses. I kind of lost

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Speaker 1: the thread of that metaphor. We're in the magic school

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Speaker 1: of us. Where are we going. We're going into a

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Speaker 1: paid a loan We're going into We're going into a

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Speaker 1: paid a loan store. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to

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Speaker 1: start by asking people to think about how weird it

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Speaker 1: is that workers have to wait weeks, if not months,

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Speaker 1: to get paid for the work that they do. Theoretically,

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Speaker 1: your employer and benefits from your labor as soon as

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Speaker 1: you do it, whether you're driving an uber, managing a bank,

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Speaker 1: or using a drone to fire missiles and insurgents, or

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Speaker 1: wedding parties in rural Afghanistan, but you, the laborer, don't

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Speaker 1: actually get paid for your work until long after you

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Speaker 1: do it. This is such a normal, accepted part of

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Speaker 1: our system that I don't think most of us ever

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Speaker 1: really talk about it much, and this peculiarity in our

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Speaker 1: labor market has led to the creation of an entire,

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Speaker 1: mighty industry. The business of paid a loans short term lending,

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Speaker 1: as it prefers to be called by its friends and family,

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Speaker 1: got its start in the United States in the late

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. This was the dawn of what we today

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Speaker 1: recognize as normal jobs, where people make a regular salary

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Speaker 1: and get paid on an intermittent basis. Prior to this point,

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Speaker 1: it had been more normal for folks to make a

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Speaker 1: daily wage. If you showed up and worked twelve hours

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Speaker 1: on a farm or a building project, you're a factory.

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Speaker 1: You walked home with cash in your pocket at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day. Regular modern style jobs changed the norms,

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Speaker 1: and this caused problems for workers. Bank accounts didn't really

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Speaker 1: exist for normal people in the late eighteen hundreds, and

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Speaker 1: it was common for them to run out of money

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Speaker 1: between paychecks because they'd have medical emergencies, or things would

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Speaker 1: ache or whatever. Uh, and short term loans evolved as

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Speaker 1: a way to keep the emerging blue collar working class

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Speaker 1: alive in the gaps between pay day. So it starts

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Speaker 1: like you can see in kind of this normal space

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Speaker 1: is like people are getting paid differently, so they need,

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Speaker 1: you know, a little bit of money now and then

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Speaker 1: to like help them help them bridge the gap between

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Speaker 1: their pay cycles. Right, can I raise my hand? I'm

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Speaker 1: raising my hand. Yes, raise your hand. I have a question.

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Speaker 1: That means I have a question. Uh, where does the

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Speaker 1: money come from? Well, it comes from payday lenders. Um,

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Speaker 1: So you would have like normal people wouldn't have credit

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Speaker 1: and like wouldn't be able to get like a loan

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Speaker 1: from a bank. Like a bank is not going to

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Speaker 1: give you a loan if you need three hundred bucks

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Speaker 1: to make up a hole in your in your in

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Speaker 1: your like budget or whatever. So instead these companies come

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Speaker 1: in and basically front you, you know, three hundred bucks.

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Speaker 1: But so they're like private companies, their private private lenders,

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Speaker 1: private lenders essentially like a rich person. Yeah, that's that's

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Speaker 1: literally how it was. In some cases. It's just like

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Speaker 1: someone with enough money to like throw out loans. And

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Speaker 1: because they're small loans, like a normal loan, like you know,

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Speaker 1: six percent would be a lot of interest to pay um,

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Speaker 1: But because these are small loans and they're very short term,

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Speaker 1: they had like way higher rates of interest. So a

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Speaker 1: onely week loan would regularly be somewhere between a hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty and five a p r um. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: that now we're talking the eight hundred still and that

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Speaker 1: seems insane, but those rates are actually really low compared

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Speaker 1: to the modern equivalents and paiday loans, so like today's

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Speaker 1: payday loans will regularly top five and interest um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that that seems like it might be a little

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Speaker 1: bit abusive, right, yes, yes it would. Now. Uh, this

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Speaker 1: is where we get the term loan shark. That's how

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Speaker 1: these people came to be known, primarily because they got

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Speaker 1: essentially famous. If you would like, watch a lot of

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Speaker 1: old TV shows from the forties and fifties that would

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Speaker 1: show loan characters like you know you you've heard the

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Speaker 1: story about, like the mob guy threatening to break someone's

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Speaker 1: leg or whatever if they don't pay a debt. Right

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Speaker 1: of course, yeah, of that happened from time to time,

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Speaker 1: But the reality is that they more often relied on

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Speaker 1: wage garnishment, public embarrassment, or what was called bawling out,

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Speaker 1: which is less fun than it sounds. It's basically screaming

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Speaker 1: at someone to shame them into pay. What the fuck? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's like just public humiliation. Yeah, that's exactly how

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Speaker 1: most of the paid a loan industry worked in the

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Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds was if you didn't pay, they would

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Speaker 1: try to humiliate you. That's like psychological torture. It's like

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Speaker 1: psychological manipulation. It is psychological manipulation. But does it does

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Speaker 1: it change your opinion on this at all? Sharine to

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Speaker 1: learn that this actually created a great job opportunity for

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Speaker 1: women in the workplace slightly. You know, keep keep talking.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote from a scholarly Commons article. Quote to

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Speaker 1: compel payments salary lenders pestered debtors incessantly at home, or

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Speaker 1: sent ballers out to make a scene at work, or

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Speaker 1: processed wage assignments, or use the hours of attorney they

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Speaker 1: had taken to confess judgment for before justices of the peace.

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Speaker 1: They did not have to lay a hand on customers

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Speaker 1: in arrears to do a profitable business. Indeed, many firms

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Speaker 1: had a preference for hiring women as loan agents because,

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Speaker 1: as one news story explained, they give an appearance of

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Speaker 1: harmlessness to the lending establishment, and an outraged borrower is

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Speaker 1: not so anxious to kick the manager out of a

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Speaker 1: window if she is a woman. So so it wasn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily for the benefit of women, but yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: just because you wouldn't beat up a loan shark who

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Speaker 1: was a lady sick. Um. Well, as much as I

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Speaker 1: really appreciate job opportunes for women, uh, I mean that's

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Speaker 1: problematic as ship. Yeah, I would say problematic as ship

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Speaker 1: is fair. Um. So, starting after the Civil War, what

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Speaker 1: we're called chattel mortgage lenders became increasingly common. So these

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Speaker 1: were paid a loans backed up by the debtors furniture

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Speaker 1: and family possessions as collateral. The explicit goal of the

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Speaker 1: arrangements offered was to trap debtors in an endless cycle

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Speaker 1: where they would never quite pay off their loan and

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Speaker 1: thus would spend the rest of their lives racing to

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Speaker 1: pay off the interest in order to avoid literally losing

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Speaker 1: their beds. So people would like mortgage their furniture in

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Speaker 1: order to make ends meet. For sad. That's like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I feel like it just boils down to a rich

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Speaker 1: person taking advantage of a poor person that's desperate. That's

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Speaker 1: all it boils down to. Yeah, and that's so sad. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that is the rich person that must have I mean,

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Speaker 1: the rich person must have better things to do. But

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Speaker 1: they're just greedy. They want money and it's money. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but they already have it, they want more. So the

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Speaker 1: term loan shark came up essentially because the very form

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Speaker 1: of the deal trapped the barrower and an endless cycle.

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Speaker 1: So you were essentially like always being like chased down

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Speaker 1: by the shark. You couldn't escape it. Um. The practice

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Speaker 1: was almost immediately recognized as problematic by various state governments

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Speaker 1: as well as the federal government, and they tried a

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Speaker 1: number of ways to get a handle on the problem.

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Speaker 1: States started by placing what we're called or recaps, and

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Speaker 1: by the nineteen teens most states limited annual interest in

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Speaker 1: between eighteen and forty two. So this seems a lot

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Speaker 1: fairer than a hundred and right, um, and it would

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Speaker 1: stop people from getting trapped in sustainable cycles of debt,

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Speaker 1: but it also kind of wiped out the entire short

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Speaker 1: term loan industry. Um. See. The only way that these

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Speaker 1: loans could work was by giving relatively small amounts of

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Speaker 1: money to people with no credit. By definition, their consumer

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Speaker 1: base had a high default rate. A lot of people

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Speaker 1: would just completely fail to pay their debts, so the

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Speaker 1: only way the industry could be profitable was to charge

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Speaker 1: these high rates of interest. When the government capped that,

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Speaker 1: loan sharks didn't go away, but they did change. The

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Speaker 1: endless debt cycles and ballings out were replaced by mafia

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Speaker 1: men who would offer illegal loans and ensured repayment by

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Speaker 1: beating the ever living ship out of clients who failed

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Speaker 1: to pay. So that's kind of problem, the solving the

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Speaker 1: problem forever, um now, So so you're so you're saying

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Speaker 1: this is all stemming from the fact that people don't

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Speaker 1: get paid by the day as much as to you

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Speaker 1: every other week or every month or whatever. Yes, And

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Speaker 1: that's like one of the things you have to remember

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Speaker 1: at the core of this issue is that no matter

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Speaker 1: how fucked up the payday loan industry is and seems,

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Speaker 1: people still need them, um because like they you know,

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Speaker 1: they have no money for nine or ten days and

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Speaker 1: their kid has to go to a doctor or like

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Speaker 1: they have. Isn't that something that we should tackle? It

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Speaker 1: seems like yeah, yeah, certainly, it certainly seems like it, um,

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Speaker 1: But we're not, um, why would we tackle systemic problems

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Speaker 1: in our economic system as opposed to covering up a

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Speaker 1: band aid, or like, like your your knee gets gased

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Speaker 1: open and you're just like worrying about the blood trickling

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Speaker 1: on your ankle and not actually the wound. It's that's

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Speaker 1: a gory sorry, Mr Fiddles, it is a gory situation. Now.

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Speaker 1: I started by saying that, like the mob guys would

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Speaker 1: beat the ship out of people for not paying loans,

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Speaker 1: and that did happen. But one of the weird things

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Speaker 1: about this story is that the majority of evidence suggest

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Speaker 1: us that mafia lenders weren't actually all that bad by

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Speaker 1: the standards of paid a loans um like the more

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Speaker 1: legitimate lenders. They made their money by locking people into

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Speaker 1: an endless cycle of debt, but they like didn't actually

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Speaker 1: beat people up all that often. Uh, and their interest

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Speaker 1: payments were kind of low compared to like when legitimate

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Speaker 1: companies would offer paid a loans. So I found a

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Speaker 1: great quote on exactly how sort of like physical violence

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Speaker 1: in the loan industry really did work. You know, the

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Speaker 1: stereotype is the mob guy breaking your legs from not

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Speaker 1: paying a debt. That wasn't super common to happen. According

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Speaker 1: to scholarly comments, quote. The debt or is motivated to

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Speaker 1: pay not only because his body has pledged as collateral,

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Speaker 1: but also because he wants to preserve his only line

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Speaker 1: of credit. The creditor, in turn, wants to avoid the

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Speaker 1: expense of hiring a nutcracker to collect the debt. As

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Speaker 1: a nineteen sixties Chicago juice man that's what they called

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Speaker 1: people who beat people up for loans explained the cost

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Speaker 1: of hiring a thug to break a deadbeat's leg might

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Speaker 1: exceed the sum he owned owed, and with a broken leg,

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Speaker 1: it would be hard for the debtor to own money

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Speaker 1: and catch up on his payments. Imposing a less stabilitating

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Speaker 1: penalty usually made more sense. A finger deliberately slit open

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Speaker 1: with the razor blade never kept anybody from working and

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Speaker 1: serves as a constant reminder of the next payday. But

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Speaker 1: the best strategy this loan shark consisted was to select

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Speaker 1: customers carefully and not load them with excessive debt. When

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Speaker 1: business is good in a smoothly run operation, muscle is

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Speaker 1: seldom needed for collections. One of the few empirical studies

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Speaker 1: of a mob loan shark operation confirms this view, based

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Speaker 1: on FBI case files. The study reported that interviews with

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Speaker 1: a hundred and fifteen customers of the loan business turned

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Speaker 1: up only one debtor who had been threatened. None were beaten.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, I feel like I've watched enough Sopranos

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Speaker 1: to know that's not true, But um, I'm just kidding now.

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Speaker 1: I think it's also very interesting that it went from

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Speaker 1: psychological manipulation and torture to the complete opposite, just like

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Speaker 1: pure physical Yeah, isn't that fascinating? That's fascinating, Like it's

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Speaker 1: weird how that happens. How Like when the businesses are

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Speaker 1: completely legal and the lead system allows them, they psychologically

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Speaker 1: torture you in charge utterly ruinous rates of debt or

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Speaker 1: of interest, and then when the business is illegal, the

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Speaker 1: interest rates go down, but they have to slice open

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Speaker 1: your finger to get you to pay sometimes, and like

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Speaker 1: that's that, like you you have to pick one of

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Speaker 1: the two, like, because people are going to get these

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Speaker 1: loans either way. I mean it's a little bit still

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Speaker 1: psychological because you said something like, um, cutting a finger,

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Speaker 1: like it will be a concert reminder of your debt

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Speaker 1: because it's like on your hand. So yeah, that's so

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Speaker 1: fucking manipulative it is. I mean I gotta say, I

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Speaker 1: kind of I'm more on the mob's side than the

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Speaker 1: legitimate lenders. Same here, no, same here, I think I

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Speaker 1: think ultimately, even though the mobsters are probably better off,

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Speaker 1: like financially, I feel like for the majority of the time,

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Speaker 1: mobsters kind of came from lower class or like middle

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Speaker 1: class or like you know what I mean, people are understanding. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they they're the they have a better understanding of maybe

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Speaker 1: the desperation they feel or like the trials and gup

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Speaker 1: relations of not having a lot of money. And also,

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Speaker 1: I mean, Tony Soprano is a complicated character. You know, um,

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Speaker 1: this is going to turn into this as apparents episode,

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Speaker 1: Tony Soprano put in a forty hour work week every week.

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Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, he wasn't. He wasn't slacking off like

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Speaker 1: certain unnamed presidents. I mean like he was working around.

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Speaker 1: Sure he was sucking around and like whatever. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, he's a busy man. And I think

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Speaker 1: I think that's a difference. I think that's a difference because, uh,

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Speaker 1: legal operation is usually run by rich people that usually

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Speaker 1: don't lift a finger for their money. Maybe they don't anymore,

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Speaker 1: maybe they have in the past, where their daddy did

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Speaker 1: or whatever. But tony soprano working guy. Yeah, that's why

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Speaker 1: I have a lot more respect for like a drug

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Speaker 1: dealer than one of these guys who worked at like

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Speaker 1: a mutual fund or whatever scanning people out during the

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Speaker 1: financial crash, someone who was like, we're going to as

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Speaker 1: fargo selling people bad loans. Like, at least the drug dealer,

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Speaker 1: Like there, you know, for one thing, it's an honest transaction.

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Speaker 1: You want some heroin, you get some heroin. And for

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Speaker 1: another thing, like they're out there pounding the ground, they're working, working,

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Speaker 1: working the floor, so to speak. They're putting on some risk.

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Speaker 1: I I gotta respect that more than you respect the

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Speaker 1: financial criminal. So I feel the same way about the

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Speaker 1: mafia mafia in this case, Like, yeah, maybe you're cutting

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Speaker 1: open some people's fingers, but at least that's honest finger

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Speaker 1: cutting work. Yeah, that's honest finger cutting work. Honest finger

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Speaker 1: cutting work. Now, by the nineteen sixties, it was not

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Speaker 1: uncommon for mafia lenders to offer annual aprs of under

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Speaker 1: two for their short term loans. FBI studies also reported

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Speaker 1: surprisingly low rates given the industry, often around a hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty a p R in many cases, mob loans

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Speaker 1: were less than half as expensive as modern payday loans. UH. Now,

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Speaker 1: as I stated, violence was not the norm, but cases

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Speaker 1: did occur that we're shocking enough to spark public outrage.

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Speaker 1: In one incident in nineteen thirty five, a young clerk

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Speaker 1: was beaten within an inch of his life for welching

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Speaker 1: on a debt. This launched a series of investigations by

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Speaker 1: Thomas Dewey, the governor of New York. Twenty seven people

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Speaker 1: were arrested for violent collection of debts. Throughout the nineteen

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Speaker 1: forties and fifties, U S. States cracked down on mafia

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Speaker 1: loan sharks, and unfortunately, they did so by doing the

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Speaker 1: opposite of what they'd done to kill the non violent

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Speaker 1: loan sharks, raising ursurycaps and allowing legal lenders to charge

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Speaker 1: exorbitant interest rates once again. So by the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: deregulation of the paid a loan industry had largely starved

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Speaker 1: the mob out of the business and allowed a thriving

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Speaker 1: new industry of perfectly legitimate companies charging five and six

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Speaker 1: interest for short term loans. UH. Individual states realized pretty

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Speaker 1: quickly that this was even worse than letting the mob

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Speaker 1: give people loans instead. They started to change their laws

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Speaker 1: back and reintroduced caps to interest rates. But the big

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Speaker 1: banks had gotten a taste of how much money paid

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Speaker 1: A loans could provide. They brought out their lawyers. In

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy eight, the Supreme Court ruled on a

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Speaker 1: case in Minnesota. That state had had imposed strict laws

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Speaker 1: on the interest that could be charged on loans, but

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Speaker 1: banks from other states with hired limits had started coming

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Speaker 1: in and operating paid a loan businesses, charging the interest

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Speaker 1: rates of their state of origin. When the case hit

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court ruled that this behavior

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Speaker 1: was totally fine, and from now on banks would partner

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Speaker 1: with short term lending companies to charge outrageously high interest

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Speaker 1: rates for short term loans, regardless of what the original

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Speaker 1: individ or what the individual states themselves had on the books.

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Speaker 1: As a result of this, certain states like Kansas and

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Speaker 1: Nevada became the hubs for increasingly enormous paid a lending businesses.

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Speaker 1: So that's cool. What a twist, Yeah, what a twist? Twist. So,

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Speaker 1: by the early nineteen nineties, the paiday loan industry was

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Speaker 1: growing at an exponential rate. It had gone from the

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Speaker 1: purview of shady but ultimately human mobsters to a multibillion

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Speaker 1: dollar business run by gigantic, faceless corporations that hid behind

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Speaker 1: the multitude of names and constantly moved across state lines

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Speaker 1: to make their questionably legal behavior harder to prosecute. Again,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a mark of where this story is

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Speaker 1: going that we're going to look back on the old

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Speaker 1: days of the mafia cutting up people's fingers, is yeah,

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Speaker 1: the good old days of payday lending. Yeah. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's crazy that throughout like basically over a century of

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Speaker 1: this one's ever been like, let's just let's just get

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Speaker 1: to the root of the problem, Like what why do

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Speaker 1: people keep wanting money or needing money? Rather, it's because

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Speaker 1: of the the just the time between their paychecks. And

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Speaker 1: that's infuriating that that hasn't even been addressed. It's just

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Speaker 1: the payday loan fucking clusterfuck keeps getting more clusterfucking yeah,

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Speaker 1: and nobody, nobody ever even talks about like, well, maybe

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Speaker 1: we should reform how workers get paid because maybe people

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Speaker 1: deserve to get their money the day that they earn it,

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Speaker 1: because why wouldn't they, Like it's like the only reason

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Speaker 1: it seems weird to suggest that change to us is

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Speaker 1: because it's not how it works. Um. But like if

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Speaker 1: you try to think back on it, like, well, why

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Speaker 1: does the company get the value of your labor immediately

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Speaker 1: but you have to wait weeks or months to get

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Speaker 1: the money that you know, when you put it that way,

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Speaker 1: it's sucking bullshit. It's total bullshit. Like what if I

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Speaker 1: what if I work an an immense amount of work

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Speaker 1: and then I die the next day, I have no

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Speaker 1: like you know what I mean, Like they have benefited,

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Speaker 1: but I have not exactly you should be able to

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Speaker 1: and I'm owed on my deathbed. Yeah, that's bullshit. They

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Speaker 1: got to bury a bunch of money in your casket,

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Speaker 1: which isn't going to help you any and it'll probably

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Speaker 1: I mean, like, I mean, okay, I'm freelanced. I've never

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Speaker 1: actually had like a salary full time job. But the

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Speaker 1: I like, I work on a day rate when I

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Speaker 1: work in production or like whatever. As a filmmaker, you

378
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Speaker 1: get like a standard rate sometimes, but even that, it's

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Speaker 1: it's like weeks after the job is over that you

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Speaker 1: finally get paid. And I'm wondering, like maybe there are

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Speaker 1: some things that are like, well the budget, Like I don't,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, man, what's the I don't think there's

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Speaker 1: no there's no solving this, there's no Oh my god. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there there are some companies there. There's one company based

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Speaker 1: out of the Bay Area that's trying to like reform

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Speaker 1: the system. And the way they're trying to do it

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Speaker 1: is by essentially, if you work for a company like

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Speaker 1: uber or lift um, you sign up a thing with

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Speaker 1: them and basically they pay you what you earn when

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Speaker 1: you earn it, and they take like one percent, like

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00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 1: a flat rate. Uh, and you get your money instantly,

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00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,399
Speaker 1: and then when the company pays you, the money goes

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Speaker 1: to the company that has been giving you your money.

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Speaker 1: So like essentially um. Yeah, So like there are attempts

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Speaker 1: like it also, is it because of taxes? I don't know,

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Speaker 1: because I can't. It can't be in most cases because,

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Speaker 1: like you, I've spent most of my working career as

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Speaker 1: a freelancer, usually getting paid four to six weeks after

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Speaker 1: I do the work, uh, and they don't take any

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Speaker 1: taxes out. That's like how freelancing works. So I think

401
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,520
Speaker 1: it's just a system that was set up because it

402
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Speaker 1: really benefits the companies that employ us um and that

403
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Speaker 1: has been going on for so long that most people

404
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Speaker 1: don't ever think about how messed up it is that

405
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Speaker 1: they've got to wait a month to get their money. Yeah, yeah,

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00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 1: you're right. But then at the same time, I'd like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, maybe I've worked on too many indie indie

408
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Speaker 1: film shoots, but like when I hire someone as a

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Speaker 1: sound person or whatever, I try to pay them, like,

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Speaker 1: if not after the workday, like within the next morning

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Speaker 1: or the day after that. So it's like, I feel

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Speaker 1: like when you're not married to the system, when you're

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Speaker 1: not thinking this is the only way it has to be,

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Speaker 1: then you're more open minded. Like I've never had a

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Speaker 1: salary job where I had to wait a couple of weeks.

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Speaker 1: In my mind, I was like, well, they worked for

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Speaker 1: me all for twelve hours. Today I will pay them,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So I think maybe we're

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Speaker 1: just maybe the majority of people are just they think

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Speaker 1: this is the way it has to be. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: that's true. We've got to break Freeman. It's not I

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Speaker 1: mean to go back to the noble drug dealer. You know.

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Speaker 1: When I was when I was a very poor young man,

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Speaker 1: the only friends of mine, who ever had cash on

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Speaker 1: hand were the ones who made their living selling drugs,

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Speaker 1: because you get paid as soon as you provide a

427
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,879
Speaker 1: service if you're if you're a drug dealer, yet another

428
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: reason all of business should take a hand out of

429
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 1: the leaf out of the book of dealing drugs. What

430
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 1: if everything worked like drugs? Okay? But then The Wire

431
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,880
Speaker 1: to bring back television? I mean not, it doesn't end

432
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 1: well for a lot of people. I only watched the

433
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: first episode of The Wire, but it seemed like it

434
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 1: was going pretty well, you're wrong, Well, you're wrong. You

435
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 1: need to watch the Does it does it go to

436
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 1: a dark place that's unfortunate? Well, first of all, it's

437
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 1: an amazing show, but also, like I understand, mean, I

438
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 1: keep bringing up TV as because I think it's funny

439
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 1: to like think of my only source of information about

440
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 1: drugs or or the mafia are from television. But at

441
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 1: the same time not false. Um, but I do think

442
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 1: it is a very insightful way to understand. I don't know, like,

443
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: how else do we learn just from film and television?

444
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 1: And that's how the the word gets out? Yeah, that's uh.

445
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,679
Speaker 1: I think this episode is just trying to tell you

446
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: all that just give drug dealing a shot. I mean

447
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: that that too. I was going to say, burn the

448
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,880
Speaker 1: system down, but you know what, our listeners shouldn't burn down, Sharine.

449
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 1: Ad breaks the wonderful companies that support our our our

450
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 1: show with products and services, don't. What if a payday

451
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 1: loan ad came on right after this, then I'm sure

452
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 1: it's a completely ethical payday loan company, just like completely

453
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 1: ethical company Coke Industries, who advertised on our show, Oh no,

454
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 1: we love here. Sharine. You were just telling me the

455
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 1: other day, Robert, I really have a lot of crude

456
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 1: oil that I need refined. Do you know anyone who

457
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 1: can refine my crude oil and put out more than

458
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: twice as much carbon into the atmosphere as other crude

459
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: oil refineries? And I said, I said, I know exactly.

460
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 1: And and Coke Industries that that's your that's your go to.

461
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 1: You're not wrong, You're not wrong. You know what else

462
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 1: isn't wrong? Products? We're back, we're talking about payday loans.

463
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: When we when we last uh finished at least reading

464
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: into the script. We've gotten to the point where the

465
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: Supreme Court in nineteen seventy eight ruled that banks could

466
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: essentially charge whatever interest rates were legal in their states

467
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,679
Speaker 1: of origin, but extend the loans to people in other

468
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: states that put on, you know, different caps on interest rates. Um.

469
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: And this is sort of responsible for the meteoric rise

470
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: of the modern payday loan industry. So by the late

471
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, rates of between two hundred and five pent

472
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,959
Speaker 1: had become the norm. Lenders began tacking on additional service

473
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: fees to get around limits on the amount of interest

474
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 1: they could charge. By the early two thousand's, eleven million

475
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: Americans spent an average of five hundred dollars a year

476
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 1: on fees alone. The situation was already out of control,

477
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: but not so out of control that an extremely gifted

478
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: grifter couldn't make it out of control. Here and this

479
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 1: brings us to a little guy named Scott Tucker. You

480
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 1: ever heard of Scott Tucker? Shearine, it sounds like a motherfucker.

481
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: Scott Tucker is a motherfucker. Uh. He was originally going

482
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 1: to be the subject of this entire episode. Um, he's

483
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: not the father of payday loans, but I think it

484
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: might be accurate to call him like the stepfather who

485
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 1: moves in when you're already sixteen and shares his Miller

486
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: Tall Boys with you. He's the that guy of of

487
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: feel like, look at you funny when you work shorts

488
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: in the house and like yes, yeah, yeah, And he

489
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 1: never he never quite crosses the line. But in a way,

490
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: just making the comments is crossing the line. But like

491
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: you can't do anything actionable because your mom's really into him.

492
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: He's that. He's that guy of the payday loan industry.

493
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: Like you maybe like got some food on your next

494
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: to your lip, and he like just us his thumb

495
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: to take it off without saying anything to you. And yeah,

496
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: you have goose bumps everywhere and you have to keep

497
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 1: it to yourself for the rest of your life. And

498
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 1: then maybe they have a kid, and then that kid

499
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: has no idea that his dad is a fucking creep.

500
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: Yeah he that that you you really have a field

501
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: for Scott Walker. Uh he said, he said Scott Walker,

502
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: but Scott Tucker. Sorry, that's another piece of ship named Scott.

503
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: Not a great name. Not a great name. Scott Freeze

504
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: the Way to Beat. That's an advertising for tape. Scott

505
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: was born on May fifth, nineteen sixty two, in Kansas City, Missouri.

506
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: He attended Rockhurst High School in Kansas State University, where

507
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: he studied business administration. Two years into that degree, he

508
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: decided he'd learned enough about business, so he dropped out

509
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: of school and went into business for himself. In nineteen eight,

510
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: he borrowed fifty thousand dollars from the American Bank of

511
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 1: Kansas City, offering what he said was his new Porsche

512
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: as collateral. Now, the reality is that Scott did not

513
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: own a Porsche. He had briefly, but he'd sold it

514
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: in order to fund his scams and just lied to

515
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: the bank that he still had it. Tucker's business plan

516
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: was to use the money he acquired from this real

517
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: loan to fund a fake loan business. According to the

518
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: Center for Public Integrity quote, while a partner in Oregon

519
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: ran newspaper and magazine ads throughout the country offering commercial loans,

520
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: Tucker posed as the president of a seemingly high powered

521
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: investment bank in Overland Park called Chase, Morgan, Stearns and Lloyd.

522
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: The operation was a fraud, collecting more than a hundred

523
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: thousand dollars in advanced fees from at least fifteen borrowers

524
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: without providing any loans. So his first loan business doesn't

525
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: actually give people loans. He's he's just stealing money, um

526
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: and and kind of stealing the name of JP Morgan

527
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: and Chase, as well as bear Stearns and Lloyd's of London.

528
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: But I don't feel so bad about that because all

529
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: of those companies are terrible. Um, but that is what

530
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: he's doing now. Tucker wasn't only do you only have

531
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 1: me on to talk about like shitty white men grifters. Yes,

532
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: that's why I'm here. Yes, you're my You're you're you're

533
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: my shitty white men grifters. Get I mean, immediately after

534
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 1: this episode, we're gonna take talk about Jacob wool again.

535
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: So I cannot wait to bring up that motherfucker again.

536
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: So Tucker wasn't only a major crimes kind of guy.

537
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty nine, while he was in the middle

538
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 1: of his stealing money from people and pretending to run

539
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: a loan company business, he got in trouble for writing

540
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: bad checks to a moving company he hired to move

541
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: loads of used furniture for another one of his businesses.

542
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: This kind of sloppiness ensured that Tucker was quickly caught

543
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: committing tens of thousands of dollars in fraud. He was

544
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: convicted in nineteen ninety one and spent a year in prison. Now,

545
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: the next five years of Tucker's life are a little

546
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: bit of a mystery. He either kept his nose clean

547
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: and obeyed the law for half a decade, or he

548
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 1: got up to a series of smaller scale grifts and

549
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: he wasn't caught for them. Whatever the truth, by nineteen

550
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: ninety seven he was ready to get back into the

551
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: major crimes game. That year he met Charles Hallinan generally

552
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: referred to as the godfather of payday loans, although that

553
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: isn't quite true, as we've gotten over already. But Helenan

554
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: was wildly successful at running a series of shady quasi

555
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: legal companies operating under the lending laws of one state

556
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: while offering loans in completely different states. Because Khan men

557
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: instinctively recognized their own, Halenan instantly liked Tucker. The two

558
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: became fast friends, and Helenan saw the young man as

559
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: a protege. He agreed to loan Scott Tucker five thousand

560
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: dollars to create a payday lending company. Tucker would be

561
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: president and run the business from Overland Park, Kansas. As

562
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: part of a deal, Tucker signed a contract promising not

563
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: to create any competing paid A loan companies. I'm sure

564
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: that that's gonna go. Well mm hmm, yeah, two con

565
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: men just shaking hands there, so what a pure friends

566
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,239
Speaker 1: with a pure friendship. I am sure neither of them

567
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: will take advantage of the other. Let's read the next paragraph.

568
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: Helen and and Tucker inked their deal in September of nine.

569
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: Tucker instantly started a new company see okay management and

570
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: direct violation of the contract he just signed with his mentor.

571
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: He began shuffling assets over from the company he created

572
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: with Helenan to his new business. Next, Tucker built up

573
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: a network of dummy corporations based out of Carson City, Nevada,

574
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,959
Speaker 1: which he could use to receive money from the network

575
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: of paid A lending businesses he established at the same time.

576
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: Within a couple of weeks, Tucker was running through a

577
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,719
Speaker 1: convoluted series of businesses lending companies with names like Cash Advance,

578
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: Preferred Cash Loans, and United Cash Loads. For years, Tucker

579
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: kept Helenan in the dark about the fact that he

580
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: basically used the other man's money to build up a

581
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: paid a loan Empire, the he was the soul beneficiary of.

582
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: He called his friend every Saturday and gave him updates

583
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: on their company, which was actually the fakest of his

584
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: fake companies. He assured the other man that c Okay

585
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: Management was just a part of their new lending service.

586
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: The reality, however, is that Tucker had done something new

587
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: and completely unprecedented in the world of scammy payday loans.

588
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: The standard for Helenan and other paid A lenders was

589
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: to base your company in states like Nevada and Kansas

590
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: that allowed cripplingly high rates of interest to be charged. Then,

591
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: thanks to the Supreme Court, they could offer loans to

592
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: people in states like California was stronger laws in place,

593
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: but even the states with the loosest ursory laws still

594
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: had some laws about that kind of thing, and some

595
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: laws was too many laws for Scott Tucker. He realized

596
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: that Native American reservations offered a unique opportunity. They got

597
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: to pass loan. Yeah, he's suffered enough by the hands

598
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: of a white man. No, no, they have not. Now

599
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: they're getting sucked into one of his grifts. For literal

600
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: he's on the dollar. Yeah, yeah, So Native American reservations

601
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: could pass their own laws about like ursory levels and stuff.

602
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: And Scott Tucker found that if he basically convinced reservations

603
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: without laws about these things to let him operate companies

604
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: out of their land and offered them a token bribe,

605
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: well then he could really really get into fucking over

606
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: some poor people. So, yeah, he's an innovator. You love innovators.

607
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: That's what built this country. I love innovators. I mean,

608
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: I mean this country was literally built by innovative people

609
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: finding innovative ways to take advantage of Native Americans. So

610
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: like he's really, he's he's just following the steps of

611
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: his ancestors. Really, yeah, yeah, Scott Tucker, the junior, junior, junior,

612
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: the fourth and fifth or whatever. He's just following in

613
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: the footsteps of his shitty, fucking scum relatives. It's a

614
00:31:53,480 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: noble tradition, a noble, noble, noble mr who I mean,

615
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: look all Tucker is doing, like sharene p R is

616
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: clearly not enough to be charging people for short term loans.

617
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: So he had to find some way to get that

618
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: number above se and using Native American Reservations was the

619
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,719
Speaker 1: only way to do it. Like that seems perfectly ethical

620
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: to me. Um, I'll be right back. I'm just gonna

621
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: go dump of this when they're really it's fine, I'm

622
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: just gonna dump out of the balcony. Yeah, and I'm

623
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: just gonna set up a little business on a Native

624
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: American reservation. But also, but also it's like, how much

625
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: money is enough for these fox? You know what I mean?

626
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: Like you're already rich, You're already benefiting and and profiting

627
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: off of people that are so much less fortunate than

628
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: you and less privilege than you. Look, how much is enough?

629
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: Why can't these greedy fox just just well be fucking satisfied.

630
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: We'll get to why he couldn't be satisfied with the

631
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: amount of money at a little bit charing. Because Scott

632
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: Tucker's got got some big plans from the money he's

633
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: grifting out of people. I don't wanna, don't want to

634
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: make it think like he doesn't have he doesn't have

635
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: some ambitions here, so investing in becoming a DJ or

636
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: something or like getting kind of he's does the very

637
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: rich person equivalent of becoming a dj. Um. But we'll

638
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: get to that in just a second. So, according to

639
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: the Kansas City star. Tucker's businesses quote operated under brand

640
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: names including a marilone Cash Advance, one Click Cash, United

641
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: Cash Loans, and five hundred Fast Fast Cash. In addition

642
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: to steep interest rates, authorities said consumers were tricked by

643
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: the terms of the loan through renewals and fees. Five

644
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: hundred dollar loan could result in the borrow we're owing

645
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: nineteen hundred and twenty five dollars. So that's the kind

646
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: of like level of grift we're we're talking about, Like

647
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: your kid gets a medical bill and you need five

648
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: hundred bucks to cover the debt, and then you know,

649
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: in a month or two, you wind up owing two

650
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: grand to Scott Tucker because you don't know how to

651
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: read a contract act as well as Scott Tucker's lawyers

652
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: know how to write one. Um, and because he's operating

653
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: out of Native American land, it doesn't matter what the

654
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: laws are in your state. UM. Yeah, so that's fun.

655
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: Over the years, Tucker turned to five hundred thousand dollar

656
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: investment into a two billion dollar a year business with

657
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: more than four and a half million annual customers. This

658
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: meant his companies accounted for roughly of the eleven million

659
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: Americans who used paid A loans. Now. Tucker did, of

660
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: course attract legal attention, but it wasn't immediately clear that

661
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: Scott Tucker was actually behind any of his companies. Regulators

662
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: wound up fighting his front businesses, never realizing that they

663
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 1: were all essentially disposable shell companies arms of the same octopus. Now.

664
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,720
Speaker 1: Kansas was the first state to attempt to do something

665
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,439
Speaker 1: about one of Tucker's companies, a paid A lender called

666
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: cash Advance back in the early aughts. They went after

667
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: it for deceptive practices that led to Kansen's illegally being

668
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: charged almost eight interest in short term loans, according to

669
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: the Center for Public Integrity. Quote Danny Volpat, the lead

670
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: attorney in the case for Kansas Bank Commission n says

671
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: he never knew that Tucker, living and working in the

672
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: same state, was actually behind the paid A lenders he

673
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: battled for more than two years. Will Pat settled with

674
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: one of Tucker's shell companies in Nevada, a Shell but

675
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: no longer exists. Tucker quickly abandoned the trade name cash

676
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: Advance for these reasons. Bill Pat says it's unclear that

677
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: Tucker would violate the settlement agreement if he started lending

678
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: in Kansas again. So you see, because of the way

679
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: all these shell companies are set up and where they're located,

680
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: it's kind of impossible for anyone to go after him,

681
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: like state level governments. It's the same reason why like

682
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 1: a drug enterprise, you would want to have people located

683
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: in different states doing different things, because it disrupts law enforcement,

684
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: like it, it just makes it impossible to catch. So

685
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: Tucker did keep lending in Kansas, just under new companies

686
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 1: with new names. His businesses were all run from Overland

687
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: Park in a massive six person office, but in order

688
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: to keep up the illusion that these were Native American

689
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: run businesses, Tucker's employees were given daily weather weather reports

690
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 1: from the tribal lands where they were supposed to be based.

691
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: This way they could more effectively lie to borrowers. It

692
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: took until two thousand five for any state authorities to

693
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: even learn that Scott to even learn the name Scott Tucker.

694
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: This is because yeah, well it's because he hired an

695
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: actor to pretend to be the CEO of his business

696
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: and to register all the show. Yeah yeah, now fucking

697
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: love like the beginning of like well, actually no, JT.

698
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: Lee Roy was nothing like that. But but what is

699
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: it with I'm just mad? Yeah, well, I mean I

700
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 1: always get so mad on your fucking show, Robert, I

701
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: mean always mad. But Sharine, does it change your mind

702
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: to know that it's not illegal to do that in

703
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: the state of Nevada. I don't care about what illegal

704
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: or not in this fucking country. Obviously we're fucked. Yeah. Yeah,

705
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: and his Tony Soprano. Yeah, it's always not real. Yeah,

706
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: it's it's amazing that Tony Soprano was breaking the law.

707
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: But Scott Tucker wasn't. I mean he was, actually, but

708
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: at this point he wasn't. Um So when this con

709
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: came to light in the color Colorado Attorney General subpoena

710
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: and him, Tucker was not charged with any crime because

711
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: it wasn't illegal to have a fake person pretend to

712
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: be this CEO of the company. It was just some

713
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: guy he hired. Yeah, it was just some schmuck. He

714
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: just needed a name. Would and what would he do?

715
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: Whould just like appear at places that Tucker were supposed

716
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: to be at. No, No, it wasn't even that detailed.

717
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: He would just register, like sign his name when they

718
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: were registering the new companies and like, yeah, like it

719
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: was that simple, Like he just wanted a name that

720
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: wasn't Scott Tucker on all this stuff, so it was

721
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: that much harder to come after him. Yeah. So uh.

722
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 1: Years later, one of Tucker's former employees laid out under

723
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: oath exactly how many of these shell businesses Tucker operated quote.

724
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: In addition to owning one Click Cash, c Okay also

725
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: owned or was affiliated with a marylan Us, Fast Fast Cash,

726
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: United Cash Loans, Preferred Cash Loans, and Internet Cash Advanced Marketing.

727
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: I understand that there were at least five hundred Internet

728
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: based paid A lending companies that are currently affiliated with

729
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: one of the five companies mentioned above owned by clk um. So.

730
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: This employee was witnessed to some of the unspeakable human

731
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 1: cost ofers empire of debt. He later reported under oath,

732
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 1: I often saw a customer loan of three hundred dollars

733
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 1: turned into a nine hundred dollar debt in a very

734
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: short period of time due to interest rollover in late fees.

735
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: He estimated that six of the money he brought in

736
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: during a given month came from the interest rollover in

737
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: late fees rather than the customer paying down the principal balance.

738
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: So again, the business isn't people paying down their balance.

739
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,399
Speaker 1: The business is conning them into paying extra money through

740
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: late fees and service charges and whatnot. And for a

741
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,760
Speaker 1: very long time, Tucker's paid a lending business did spectacularly

742
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: well for him. He netted somewhere around four hundred million

743
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: dollars and that's just the money we can verify. He

744
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: bought a one point three million dollar ferrari, an eight

745
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: million dollar house in Aspen, and a one point eight

746
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: million dollar house in Kansas. Most of his ill gotten riches, however,

747
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: were spent on his true passion. You want, I guess

748
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: you want to guess what it is sharing? You want

749
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: to guess what what what this guy's equivalent of becoming

750
00:38:52,560 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: a DJ is. Um let me think maybe it's gin

751
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: or like sometimes or No. No, he wanted to be

752
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: a arcade master. No, I mean that is kind of

753
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: close because a lot of arcades have racing games, and

754
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: Scott Tucker wanted to be a race car driver. What

755
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 1: that's the most That's the widest dream I've ever heard of. Yeah,

756
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: if you look him up on Wikipedia, his name is

757
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 1: even given as stop Scott Tucker parentheses racing driver um,

758
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: and he wasn't you say it's the whitest thing ever.

759
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 1: It's it's it's really not um because he doesn't get

760
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: involved in the honest, god fearing beer soaked kind of

761
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 1: races that like NASCAR fans watch. He did prestige, fancy

762
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: races and like Europe and ship like the Ferrari Challenge

763
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: and the Rolex sports Car Series and the American Laman Series.

764
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 1: Like he didn't even do like the honest, drunken NASCAR

765
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: rally kind of races like he was. He was really

766
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: in the stupid, fancy, rich guy multimillion dollar cars. Have

767
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: a question, Yes, is this guy married or or with anybody?

768
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 1: Or is he fun? Yeah? No, he was married to

769
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 1: some broad What is humanity? What is now? So if

770
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 1: we just showed me a picture of him, he's gross. Yeah,

771
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: he's a gross looking guy. He's a fucking dru by

772
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: ass motherfucker. His face is like melting on either side. Yeah,

773
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 1: he looks like like a young Jeff Gordon, if Jeff

774
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: Gordon had wandered too close to a candle. Now, he

775
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: does seem to have been a pretty decent race car driver,

776
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: like at least he won some races, and he was

777
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: Rookie of the Year at one point. I don't think

778
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: he was like super good, but I don't have any

779
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: real ability to rate race car drivers. Um. He seems

780
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: from what I've read, like he was sort of on

781
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: the edge of where he might have been good enough

782
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 1: to drive professionally if he hadn't had hundreds of millions

783
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: of dollars um. But he probably wouldn't have ever established

784
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 1: a racing career if he hadn't had hundreds of millions

785
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: of dollars. Now, the term used within the racing community

786
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 1: for dudes like Scott is a gentleman driver, and that's

787
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: essentially racing lingo for a rich guy who buys a

788
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: really fancy car and is able to become a professional

789
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,280
Speaker 1: race car driver because they're rich for some other reason. Okay,

790
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: so gentleman driver. Scott Tucker was well known within the

791
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 1: racing community, and he verged on being famous outside of Kansas. Curiously,

792
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: he did no racing inside the state of Kansas and

793
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 1: seems to have gone out of his way to avoid

794
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: attracting any attention there. Articles I've read that interviewed people

795
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: on the racing scene are mixed about Tucker. Some of

796
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: his fellow racers said that he was very good, but

797
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: Gunner Jannette, who finished runner up to Tucker in a

798
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: twos and ten race, was less positive. Here's this American

799
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 1: Life quote. Jeanette said he didn't like the manner that

800
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: Chucker Tucker chose to win the championship. He cheated really

801
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: well inside of the rules, which maybe says a lot

802
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 1: about his character, says Jeannette. Uh. He adds that Tucker

803
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: was a detail oriented racer who found loophole's for the

804
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: first time in series history. He got them to allow

805
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: him to get points in whichever car finished better. It

806
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,439
Speaker 1: was very difficult racing against him, where he would drive

807
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: two cars and basically if one car had an issue

808
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,720
Speaker 1: in the other car finished better, he would get points

809
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 1: for that, says Jeanette, whose team only fielded one car. Wow,

810
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: So he was a continent in everything you did. That's

811
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: the only thing he knows how to do is be

812
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 1: a con man. How you doing? How you doing? Their sharing?

813
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 1: Um My blood is boiling. Let's bring it back to

814
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: the boils. I am. I am going to guess that

815
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: Scott Tucker spent at least as much money on his

816
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: side racing career as it would have taken to replace

817
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: the water systems in Flint, Michigan. When you put it

818
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 1: that way, When you put it that way, it is

819
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 1: disgusting what fucking these grifters do. Like, it's not how

820
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: selfish and disgusting of a of a person do you

821
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: have to be deep down to be that fucking greedy

822
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: and selfish? And I'm just pissed. I mean, but the

823
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 1: alternative sharene is that he wouldn't be able to own

824
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 1: multiple million dollar Ferraris. And can you imagine anyone being

825
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: happy without that? I mean that is true. I guess

826
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 1: anyone for every day of the week. So yeah, exactly,

827
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: seen driving the same one on Monday and Tuesday. Yeah,

828
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: like a poor person driving a Ferrari on two consecutive days. Now,

829
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: yeah exactly, like some some kind of fu yeah dirt farmer.

830
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: Now starting a two thousand eight, Tucker began dealing with

831
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 1: increasing legal threats to his empire. One of them came

832
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: from his old mentor, Hallinan. Halenan claims that around two

833
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: thousand six, Scott's weekly call stopped and we're replaced by

834
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 1: occasional emails. Halenan sent an accountant over to look into

835
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: their company and found that it had quote essentially been

836
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: ransacked and substantially of all of its assets catch and

837
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 1: profits diverted. So we realized that this business he'd put

838
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 1: half a million dollars into funding had basically been hollowed

839
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 1: out by the guy he thought was his partner, and

840
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: all of the money put into establishing an empire of

841
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 1: scammy uh payday loan businesses. So helen and sued his

842
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: former business partner, which had the unhappy side effect of

843
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: drawing legal attention towards both men, who up until that

844
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: point had mostly been insulated due to the structure of

845
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: their companies. In October of two thousand eight, and Olaf County,

846
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: Kansas deputy sheriff ticketed Scott Tucker for going eighty six

847
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:28,919
Speaker 1: miles per hour and a sixty mile per hour zone.

848
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 1: Here's how a joint investigation between CBS and I Watch

849
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 1: News described what happened next. Quote Two days later, Tucker's wife, brother,

850
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: sister in law, and sister in law, as well as

851
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,760
Speaker 1: several businesses with ties to the payday loan mogul, suddenly

852
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: donated a total of four thousand dollars to the campaign

853
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: of a candidate for local district attorney, the office that

854
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,280
Speaker 1: prosecutes traffic tickets. Among the businesses that donated a thousand

855
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: dollars to the campaign were to payday loan companies that

856
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,919
Speaker 1: the Miami Tribe of Oklahoma claims to own. Weeks later,

857
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: the ticket was reduced to a proper parking to the

858
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: surprise of the deputy who ticketed Tucker. The charge kept

859
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: Tucker's driving record clean. Wow. Cool cool stuff. Now cool stuff.

860
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 1: The good news is that this lawsuit with Hallohan, his

861
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: old partner, which was settled out of court, in this

862
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: bribery of a district attorney candidate to get his charges reduced,

863
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: these would wind up being the seeds of Scott Tucker's undoing.

864
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: But before we get to that, you know, we gotta

865
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: get to right now. Um, I was gonna jump out

866
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:35,320
Speaker 1: of the window after that break or before after Okay,

867
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 1: I'll do that after okay, Well we are about products.

868
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: We're back. So I actually am really thrilled because I

869
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: like that the undoing of this motherfucker was, in fact,

870
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: it was just their greediness getting the better of them,

871
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's kind of how like

872
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy got caught because he was driving all times.

873
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: You know, Ted Bundy only got caught by police when

874
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: he was driving stupidly because he doesn't know how to

875
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 1: drive obviously. Yea. But I mean they're not they're not

876
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: the same type of evil at all. But I'm saying,

877
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: I like when they're undoing is done by them. Yeah,

878
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 1: I like that too, because it's it's it's this kind

879
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: of thing where like it's not even a serious charge,

880
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: like going twenty six miles over the speed limit. If

881
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 1: that's your only traffic crime, it's not going to get

882
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,919
Speaker 1: your license taken away or anything like that. Um, you'll

883
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: pay a heavy fee like like fine. But like Scott

884
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 1: Tucker could afford that ship. Um, he just he just

885
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 1: it bugged him to not have a perfect driving record

886
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: because he fancied himself this great race car driver. So

887
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: he Yeah, he essentially exposed everything for that, And it's

888
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: that's funny. That's really funny. In two thousand eleven, I

889
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,959
Speaker 1: Watched News published an investigation that marked the first time

890
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: Tucker's fraudule loan Empire was laid out in the open. Now,

891
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 1: by that point, the I R S and law enforcement

892
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,240
Speaker 1: were already interested in Tucker's business because of the lawsuit

893
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 1: with hallinan Um and he'd started to claim in public

894
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: that he no longer had anything to do with any

895
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: of his paid a loan businesses. I watch his investigation

896
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: looked into the structure of his bribes to the Kansas

897
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,479
Speaker 1: District Attorney and essentially used that to like lay out

898
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: the structure of his organization. So I'm gonna quote from

899
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: their investigation. Among the companies that gave five dollar campaign

900
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: donations to the prosecutor on the same day as several

901
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 1: of Tucker's relatives were two tribal businesses, AMG Services and

902
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: M and E Services. AMG Services operates out of an

903
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,760
Speaker 1: office complex and Overlent Park, the same office that Tucker

904
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: lists his own and securities and Exchange commission filings. A

905
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 1: MG Services pays the property tax on Tucker's eight million

906
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: dollar vacation rental and Aspen, Colorado. According to the county records,

907
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: one of AMG services biggest vendors said in a lawsuit

908
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 1: that Scott Tucker in two thousand nine was the owner

909
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: and chief officer of A MG Services. Most revealing of

910
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: all bank records showed that Tuck and his brother Blaine

911
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: were the only two people able to sign for four

912
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: paid A lending businesses of one tribe. The tribes may

913
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 1: only receive a sliver of the revenue from the paid

914
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: A lending business, So all this sort of laid out

915
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: the exact structure of his company, including the fact that

916
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: he was basically bilking these Native American tribes for their

917
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: land and giving them pennies on the dollar. Another class

918
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: action lawsuit from borrowers in California revealed that the exact

919
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: amount that these tribes received was between one and two

920
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: percent of revenue from the loans, which again raked in

921
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: eight or more in interest. Over the years, twenty two

922
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,840
Speaker 1: different states took Tucker to court, with varying degrees of success,

923
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 1: but a combination of years of lawsuits and dogged reporting

924
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: gradually revealed the true face of Tucker's business. In two

925
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: thousand fourteen, facing increasing legal challenges, Scott's brother Blaine, committed

926
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 1: suicide by leaping off the top of a parking garage.

927
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: I should not make any jokes about jumping out of windows.

928
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 1: I've learned well. I mean, a window is not a

929
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 1: parking garage unless that parking garage has Winna why did

930
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: he do I mean, obviously at this to be a questioned,

931
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: but what was he involved in the business at all? Yeah?

932
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 1: He both of his brothers were involved in the business,

933
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 1: and in fact, one of his brothers got in trouble

934
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: because the money that they were making sort of legitimately

935
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: through paid a loans wasn't enough, and so he just

936
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: started buying people's information and uh calling them and telling

937
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: them that they owed him money and having debt collectors

938
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: threatened people who hadn't taken out loans um and one

939
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 1: of the debt collectors that he hired to do this

940
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 1: threatened to rape a guy's wife for not paying a

941
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 1: debt that he didn't owe. And so that guy started

942
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: suing the pants off of Scott Tucker's brothers, and it

943
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: was it was this whole big mess, um, So what

944
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: the fuck? Yeah, they, like Scott Tucker, was mostly focused

945
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:44,839
Speaker 1: on the basic crimes of of running. So it's it's

946
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,760
Speaker 1: a fucking family of awful of evil. Yeah. Once Scott

947
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: Tucker got successful, he brought his brothers in, and his

948
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: brothers were even less disappointed than him. He had too

949
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: I think two that were involved at least to too

950
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: many Jesus fucking Christ. Yeah, riddance whatever, way, too too many.

951
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: This is the Tucker family is a great case for

952
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 1: why condom should be free. Um yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah.

953
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: Uh wait, So after his brother committed suicide, did that

954
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: change anything? Well, there were a number of federal lawsuits

955
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: and investigations underway at that point. So his brother's suicide

956
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: like it ended his brother Blaine's problems, but Scott Tucker

957
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: was still in hot water, and in September of two

958
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,320
Speaker 1: thousand sixteen, the Federal Trading Commission hit Scott Tucker with

959
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: a one point three billion dollar civil judgment, the largest

960
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 1: ever obtained in a litigated case. Tucker's home and his

961
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 1: beloved race cars were all repossessed by the government. It's

962
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 1: a real heartbreaker. Yeah. Yeah, he probably cried about that.

963
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: I'm sure he did. Now that makes me happy, Yeah,

964
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: it does. I feel happy for the first time today.

965
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 1: If you watch his race car being taken away and

966
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: him crying in its garage, yeah, you get to see

967
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 1: him be sad in the in Dirty Money, the first

968
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 1: episode of that Netflix series, because it's like filmed right

969
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 1: around when the from it was taking all of his ship,

970
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: and it's it's pretty good. It's pretty good. Nice now, uh?

971
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: In two thousand sixteen is like that same year, a

972
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: New York grand jury indicted Tucker and a bunch of

973
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: his business partners for extending deceptive loans, unlawful debt collection,

974
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: and racketeering. The case revealed that Tucker had actually been

975
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: charging even more interest than had previously been known. Some

976
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: of his customers paid upwards of a thousand percent interest

977
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 1: on their loans. Tho thousand percent. I can't even compute

978
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: that in my fucking plead brain. What the funk A

979
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,280
Speaker 1: thousand percent? No? And it's it's weird that this sentence

980
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: is something I'm going to literally say, But it's definitely

981
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 1: more ethical to just cut people's fingers open. Like I

982
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: agree with you. I've never agreed with you more. Yeah, yeah,

983
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: wild that that's the case. So Tucker was sentenced to

984
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,919
Speaker 1: sixteen years in prison for running a three point five

985
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,720
Speaker 1: billion dollar criminal empire. That same year, Tucker's mentor, Helenan,

986
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: was convicted of collecting more than four d two million

987
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,320
Speaker 1: dollars in the legal debt. He was sentenced to fourteen

988
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:07,240
Speaker 1: years in prison. But Shrine, if you're thinking the bust

989
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 1: of two major payday loan scammers meant the industry itself

990
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: was in for hard times. Think again, were you thinking that?

991
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that there are still pay dalan

992
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: companies that exist now, so I'm know I know that

993
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 1: their end, or their demise or their fucking decade of

994
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: vacation time in prison didn't mean the end of the

995
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: payday loan companies. But um, you would think, I mean,

996
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 1: in in a world that is better than the one

997
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 1: we live in, you would think that evil people in

998
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: control of payday loan companies would at least learn from

999
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 1: these evil people's mistakes, right, you would think that. But no,

1000
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 1: I mean they learned from their mistakes and that they

1001
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 1: don't commit as obvious of crimes, but they do continue

1002
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: to do the same terrible things. So it didn't it

1003
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: didn't lessen It didn't lessen it at all, And no one,

1004
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:04,360
Speaker 1: no one was scared, too scared enough to change their ways.

1005
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: And in fact, the region of Kansas that Tucker worked in,

1006
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 1: specifically like around Kansas City, like the wealthy neighborhoods there,

1007
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 1: became sort of a haven for the payday loan industry

1008
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: because of local laws in that regard and suddenly, like

1009
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 1: anybody with enough cash to open up a business, UM

1010
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 1: was able to create online payday loan companies that just

1011
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,399
Speaker 1: funneled huge amounts of money into neighborhoods like Mission Hill

1012
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 1: in Kansas, around Kansas City, where like the very wealthiest

1013
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: people in Kansas lived. I found an article published a

1014
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: year after the FTC in Diet at Scott Tucker UM.

1015
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 1: It quotes several attendees at Catholic churches in wealthy areas,

1016
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 1: most notably Saint Anne's and Mission Hills, about sort of

1017
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,720
Speaker 1: how the payday lending industry flushed the area with cash.

1018
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,800
Speaker 1: Around two thousand and thirteen and fourteen, UM One Worship

1019
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,760
Speaker 1: recalled quote. It was most obvious at the school auctions.

1020
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 1: You'd see these clicks of people pulling up in limos

1021
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 1: acting wild, dropping a lot of money on exotic two

1022
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 1: week vacations and the other lavish items up forbidding, or

1023
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, so and so has a brand

1024
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: new Range Rover, or so and so family is moving

1025
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: into some giant Mission Hills mansion. You see it enough

1026
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 1: times and you start to go, where is this money

1027
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: coming from? And on one hand, it's St Anne. This

1028
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: is a school in a church that serves Mission Hills

1029
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 1: in Prairie Village, you expect to see nice cars in

1030
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: the parking lot, but there was something so sudden and

1031
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 1: so loud about this. It was this bizarre explosion of

1032
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:29,839
Speaker 1: really extreme wealth. So David Hudnall is the journalist who

1033
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: wrote this story, and he pressed Reverend Keith Lunsford of St.

1034
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,360
Speaker 1: Anne as to whether or not he thought taking money

1035
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: gotten from fleecing the poor was a very Christian uh

1036
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,879
Speaker 1: thing to engage in. And Reverend Lunsford responded, I don't

1037
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: have any firsthand knowledge of anybody at St. An involved

1038
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 1: in the paid a loan industry, So he didn't. It isn't.

1039
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:53,399
Speaker 1: Isn't the church just one big giant paid a loan industry? Yeah? Sure,

1040
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:57,320
Speaker 1: like yeah yeah, and and and a lot of the

1041
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: Pentecostal ones as well, um like Krefflo doll uh and

1042
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 1: some of those folks. So I have I have an

1043
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,439
Speaker 1: unrelated question. When you have a sec yeah, my hand

1044
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 1: is raised, absolutely, ask away. Okay, thank you, Mr Frizzle. Um,

1045
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,240
Speaker 1: I want to ask A while ago you mentioned that

1046
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 1: Tucker worked at a building that had like six hundred employees.

1047
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,720
Speaker 1: So the employees at these companies. Are they paid well?

1048
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 1: Are they basically like labor force that are like they

1049
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: might as well be factory workers that get paid the

1050
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: bare minimum and just to survive, or at the very least,

1051
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:32,919
Speaker 1: are they paying their workers a decent amount to live?

1052
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:35,240
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Some of them were paid

1053
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 1: very well, Like the ones whose job was to actually

1054
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 1: collect debts generally got a portion of those debts. And

1055
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 1: if they were bringing in tens of thousands of dollars

1056
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: a month, they lived very well. Um, As you know,

1057
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: when it came to people that weren't as critical to

1058
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 1: the business and weren't involved in as much as the

1059
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 1: shady stuff, I think Tucker probably paid them as little

1060
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:53,879
Speaker 1: as he could get away with, because that's how most

1061
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 1: of these people tend to work. You see. I was

1062
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. That

1063
00:55:57,239 --> 00:55:59,879
Speaker 1: was like, maybe he at least gave some people job.

1064
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,839
Speaker 1: But in the end, um, he is unredeemable, so keep going.

1065
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 1: Sorry for interrupting. I would call him an unredeemable asshole.

1066
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:12,840
Speaker 1: Speaking of unredeemable assholes. After the payday loan industry exploded

1067
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:15,879
Speaker 1: in Mission Hills, St Anne's church managed to meet an

1068
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 1: eight million dollar fundraising goal. UM. One parishioner told the

1069
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:21,960
Speaker 1: Pitch which is the site I found this article and

1070
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: that covers local Kansas City news. It presented a moral

1071
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 1: conundrum for St. Anne because there was all this money

1072
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 1: coming into the church through donations and through the auctions,

1073
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,320
Speaker 1: and I mean it was huge money. And gradually everybody

1074
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 1: realized that it was money that, if you trace it

1075
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: back to its route, came from poor people who were

1076
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: being taken advantage of who are being charged crazy interest rates.

1077
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 1: So there were a lot of behind closed doors, hushed tones,

1078
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 1: conversations happening about it. People on the finance committee, in

1079
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 1: the school board, we're talking about the morality of taking

1080
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: that money. But in the end, I think they just

1081
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:50,720
Speaker 1: looked the other way. Now. David huddon All, the journalist

1082
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 1: who wrote this story, also went over to a poor

1083
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:54,839
Speaker 1: part of town and talked to a reverended a church

1084
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: whose clientele were the victims of rich people who funded

1085
00:56:57,520 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 1: the renovations at St. Anne. Because David huddon All is

1086
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 1: a good journalist, he talked to Reverend Ernie Davis, who

1087
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: told him, we've seen members of our parish who lost

1088
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 1: their homes through the snowball effective paid a lending. It

1089
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,280
Speaker 1: has absolutely ravaged the lives of people in our parish.

1090
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: There's no justification for it. In the faith we share,

1091
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 1: anything that oppresses the poor is condemned in both Jewish

1092
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: and Christian scriptures. People have a sense of what is

1093
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: right and fair, whether it's through scripture or through their hearts,

1094
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 1: and charging especially poor people, hundreds of percent and interest

1095
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 1: is oppressive. So that's fun. Yeah, but was this guy

1096
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: still part of the problem. No, No, this guy. This

1097
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 1: guy led a church in a poorer part of town

1098
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 1: where like all of his parishioners were losing their houses

1099
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 1: because the loans. The people at St. Anne's were making

1100
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: millions of Yeah, because it's all churches, bullshit, Yes, some people, Okay,

1101
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: just rich churches. Yeah, okay, cool, um, keep going. Sorry,

1102
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 1: I bet you're wondering, sharene, how bad is the payday

1103
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: loan industry? Really? Like? What? What? Like? What? What do

1104
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 1: we know statistically about the actual impacts that it has

1105
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 1: on poor people? Right? Like that? That that that's kind

1106
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 1: of what I have. I have a couple of questions

1107
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 1: that I've I've been saving up. But yeah, well have

1108
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 1: you dropped the questions and then I'll get I'll get

1109
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: onto my Well, well, okay, so I was thinking credit cards.

1110
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 1: So you have paid a loan industries that supply poor

1111
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 1: people or desperate people with immediate money. Then you have

1112
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:27,439
Speaker 1: credit cards. It's very easy to open a credit card

1113
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: as long as you have decent credit. I'm sure a

1114
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,439
Speaker 1: credit card will give you credit. I mean, a credit

1115
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 1: card company is going to give you a credit card

1116
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: if you're just like passable. Um, so are paid a

1117
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 1: loan industries tackling those that have worst credit that can't

1118
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 1: have a credit card or that's exactly it. These are

1119
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: for people who can't get credit because they I mean

1120
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: oftentimes because they had credit cards and they like we're

1121
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 1: really bad with them, um. But other times just because

1122
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 1: they've never had any sort of credit history, because they're

1123
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 1: very very poor and they've only ever worked. Like a

1124
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 1: lot of the people who get paid a loans have

1125
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 1: never had a bank account, you know. They're the kind

1126
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 1: of people who grew up in the poorest parts of town,

1127
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 1: like like like a lot of them are like black

1128
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 1: and Hispanic people who grew up in very very poor

1129
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 1: circumstances and have only ever worked sort of cash in

1130
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 1: hand jobs and who just don't I've just I've just

1131
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:23,439
Speaker 1: showed my privilege thinking that everyone can get a credit card.

1132
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 1: But obviously I forgot that it's a privilege to even

1133
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: considering a credit card. Yeah, yeah, exactly, like the the

1134
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 1: the paiday loans are mainly for people who really like

1135
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 1: credit cards aren't even an option for them, because as

1136
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 1: bad as the credit card industry is, it's generally a

1137
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 1: lot less abuse of than the payday loan industry. Yeah.

1138
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 1: I was thinking about that. Yeah, I agree. Um, and

1139
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 1: I guess. I mean, my other one is not really

1140
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 1: a question, more of a statement, but I can save it. Okay, Well,

1141
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 1: let's let's let's get onto some statistics. So I decided

1142
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 1: to look into I wanted to like find all of

1143
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 1: the research I could on how bad payday loans were

1144
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 1: and like how they actually impact the poor and communities. Um.

1145
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 1: I found a two fourteen consumer Financial Financial Protection Bureau

1146
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: study that they did on like, they evaluated twelve million

1147
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,160
Speaker 1: payday loans in three states. According to the New York Times,

1148
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: quote study discredits once and for all, the industry's portrayal

1149
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 1: of these loans is a convenient option for people who

1150
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 1: can easily repay the debt on the next payday, customarily

1151
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: in two weeks. In fact, only fifteen percent of borrowers

1152
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 1: in the study could raise the money to repay the

1153
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:34,440
Speaker 1: total debt without borrowing again within fourteen days. Twenty of

1154
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 1: these borrowers default on a loan at some point, which

1155
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 1: can result in credit damage and more bank fees, and

1156
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 1: sixty renewed a loans, sometimes more than ten times and

1157
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 1: had to pay fees that put them on a slippery

1158
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 1: slow towards death that we would be difficult to repay.

1159
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 1: So Richard Cordray, the director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau,

1160
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 1: described the story of a woman in Pennsylvania who lost

1161
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: her job at a hospital and took out a short

1162
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 1: term eight hundred dollar loan to pay rent. As at

1163
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 1: the time she spoke to the CFPB, she had aid

1164
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 1: more than four hundred dollars on the loan and was

1165
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 1: still in debt. She was also still being hounded by

1166
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 1: debt collectors. Ye In two sixteen, Christine dough Bridge of

1167
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve conducted a study that found paiday loans

1168
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 1: actually helped families in the wake of natural disasters and

1169
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 1: other singular issues. Quote in periods of temporary financial distress

1170
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: after extreme weather events like hurricanes and blizzards. I find

1171
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 1: that paid a loan access mitigates declines and spending on food,

1172
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 1: mortgage payments, and home repairs in an average period. However,

1173
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 1: I find that access to pay day credit reduces well being.

1174
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 1: Loan access reduces spending on non durable goods overall, and

1175
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 1: reduces housing and food related spending particularly. So it's not

1176
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 1: an inherently bad thing to offer short term loans like

1177
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 1: this to people who have had a disaster hit them,

1178
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:46,440
Speaker 1: like a hurricane funk up their house or what I mean.

1179
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 1: I I understand that, But at the same time, if

1180
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:52,240
Speaker 1: that happened, like if the natural for natural disaster did

1181
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 1: occur and a family or a person needed money immediately,

1182
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 1: in what in what world does the majority of these

1183
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 1: p well like Because they have to pay back the

1184
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,720
Speaker 1: loan pretty much immediately or very short shortly after they

1185
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 1: borrow it, so they won't rack up interests. So if

1186
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:12,280
Speaker 1: they don't have a hundred dollars a week ago, why

1187
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 1: would they have it the next week to pay it back?

1188
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like it feels like some

1189
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 1: they would have to borrow from other companies, even they

1190
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 1: would have to keep having loan after loan after loan,

1191
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 1: unless unless, unless, like they're they're truly just waiting for

1192
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 1: their paycheck, you know what I mean, and if that

1193
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 1: paycheck can can help them in the end. But I

1194
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 1: don't know, just it's a it's an evil cycle. It

1195
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 1: is an evil cycle. And like I think, what what

1196
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 1: Doughbridge found is that like the only people for whom

1197
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 1: it wasn't an evil cycle, where the people with regular

1198
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:44,440
Speaker 1: paychecks that just got delayed because like something fucked up happened,

1199
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 1: or like you know, the government shut down, Like a

1200
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 1: lot of people used payday loans, and I'm gonna guess

1201
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 1: those people were less hurt from it than like the

1202
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 1: very impoverished tended to be. So like the primary communities

1203
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 1: preyed on what studies have found, the primary communities where

1204
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 1: paid a loans operate in our neighborhoods with higher minority populations,

1205
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 1: lower education levels, and more poverty. They're also particularly common

1206
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: in the families of U. S Service personnel um and

1207
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 1: in fact, studies have found that access to paiday loans

1208
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 1: reduces job performance of soldiers and lowers retentions levels of

1209
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 1: of US military personnel as well. So that's fucked up. Yeah,

1210
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 1: it's super fucked up. Yeah that like, uh, we take

1211
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 1: advantage of the people that are trying to serve us.

1212
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 1: That that's like the like one of the number one

1213
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 1: uh like customer bases of the payday loan industry as

1214
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 1: soldiers who can't make ends meet. Yeah, kind of messed up,

1215
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 1: fucked yeah. I mean it's already fucked that they take

1216
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 1: advantage of marginalized people. That's already fucked as it is

1217
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 1: because oftentimes communities that are impoverished are by default have

1218
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 1: a large marginalized community. Because that's just like the systematic

1219
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 1: racism at work. But it's that's just layers of fucked

1220
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 1: up after layers are sucked up. I wait, but are

1221
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,080
Speaker 1: the interest rates any better now? Are they just as bad?

1222
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 1: They're better than like no one charges what Scott Tucker

1223
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 1: was charging. You're not seeing thousand percent and interest rates,

1224
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 1: but like five to six something, seven hundreds sometimes percent

1225
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 1: is still pretty pretty normal. I think is more like

1226
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 1: that's a lot, Yes, that's a lot of money. Yes,

1227
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 1: that's not fair. Here's where things get really convoluted, shrine um,

1228
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 1: because as I how could it get worse because I

1229
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 1: was I wanted to end this with like a big

1230
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 1: dump of statistics I found on how bad uh paid

1231
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 1: A loans were, and I I put, I already read

1232
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 1: a few of those to you. I definitely found some,

1233
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:44,920
Speaker 1: but I also found a bunch of studies saying that

1234
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:47,920
Speaker 1: they were good, uh, and that they don't hurt people,

1235
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,640
Speaker 1: and that they don't primarily target minority communities and that

1236
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 1: so you mentioned the natural disasters, Yeah, so I you know,

1237
01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:00,120
Speaker 1: Like one place I wound up at was like a

1238
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 1: website called Journalists Research, which is an actually really useful

1239
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 1: little site that summarizes research on a subject. And they

1240
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 1: had a bunch of links to like summaries of payday

1241
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 1: loan studies, about half of which said payday loans were

1242
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 1: bad and about half of which sounded like this quote. Uh.

1243
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 1: Chentel Desai at Virginia Commonwealth University and Gregory Ellie House

1244
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 1: and at Federal at the Federal Reserve found that a

1245
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:23,480
Speaker 1: Georgia ban on payday loans hurts locals ability to pay

1246
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 1: other debts. They conclude that payday loans do not appear

1247
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 1: on net to exacerbate consumers debt problems and call from

1248
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 1: more research before new regulations are imposed. So you run

1249
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 1: into a lot. I ran into a lot of stories

1250
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,160
Speaker 1: like that. Um As I dug around more, I started

1251
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 1: to worry that I might have found made a mistake

1252
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 1: and focusing on the payday loan industry as a bastard.

1253
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:45,960
Speaker 1: I found a Freakonomics article titled our payday loans as

1254
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:48,360
Speaker 1: evil as people say It's cited a lot of that

1255
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 1: same research, and came to the conclusion that actually, everything

1256
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 1: is fine in the payday loan industry, and the growing

1257
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 1: calls to have the government regulated are short sighted. Look

1258
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 1: at all benefits in some way. Give me, give me

1259
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:04,640
Speaker 1: a moment, Give me a moment owned by the k brothers.

1260
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 1: I dug around a little little bit more, and then

1261
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:11,120
Speaker 1: I came across a Washington Post article titled how a

1262
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: payday loan industry insider tilted academic research in its favor.

1263
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:18,960
Speaker 1: So the article uh starts in two thousand thirteen, when

1264
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 1: the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau under President Obama was preparing

1265
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 1: to lay out a sweeping series of regulations to make

1266
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 1: the payday lending industry less of an abuse of nightmare.

1267
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 1: Henry Miller, who was an attorney who works in the

1268
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 1: payday lending industry, reached out to a professor in Georgia

1269
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 1: and asked if she'd be interested in testing the number

1270
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 1: one criticism of the paiday loan industry, which is that

1271
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:40,720
Speaker 1: its customers are hurt by its loans, according to the

1272
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 1: Washington Post quote. Over the next year, Miller worked closely

1273
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:46,919
Speaker 1: with Jennifer Lewis Priestley, a professor of statistics and data

1274
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:50,520
Speaker 1: science at Kinnesaw State University, suggesting research to site, the

1275
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 1: type of data to use, and even lecturing her on proofreading.

1276
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:56,320
Speaker 1: Punctuation and capitalization are somewhat random, he said in a

1277
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: February email, responding to a draft of the report. You

1278
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:01,440
Speaker 1: might want to have your maiden aunt, who went to

1279
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:05,360
Speaker 1: high school before nineteen sixty read this. So the fuck

1280
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 1: I know he was a man splaining fucking the English language.

1281
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 1: He sure was, and she let him do it because

1282
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 1: he was giving her a thirty dollar grant to publish

1283
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 1: the study. And this is a different Henry Miller than

1284
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:19,080
Speaker 1: the one that wrote like tropic of cancer, right, Yes,

1285
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 1: this is not the Henry Miller. This is the Henry

1286
01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 1: Miller who was a shill for the payday loan industry okay, cool,

1287
01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 1: yeah our Hillary, Hillary Miller, Um Henry but one l

1288
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:34,120
Speaker 1: yeah um. Priestley's report ultimately concluded that taking out repeated

1289
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,800
Speaker 1: payday loans did not and according to the emails, Miller

1290
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 1: discussed the results with a CFPB economist. It's unclear how

1291
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 1: it factored in the bureau decisions, but it has been

1292
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 1: repeatedly touted by paid a lending supporters. So basically, Priestley's

1293
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:50,240
Speaker 1: report concluded that payday loans were actually not bad for people,

1294
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:52,840
Speaker 1: and that that wound up going to the Consumer Financial

1295
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 1: Protection Bureau UH and and being weighed in and their

1296
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:59,320
Speaker 1: decisions as to whether or not to regulate the industry. Now,

1297
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:02,160
Speaker 1: oh my god. Priestly's report is only one of the

1298
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:04,240
Speaker 1: pro payday loan sources I ran into when I was

1299
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:06,720
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how bad UH the industry was,

1300
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 1: and the post lays out a pretty damning story of

1301
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 1: industry academic collusion here. In exchange for that thirty dollar grant,

1302
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 1: Priestly gave Miller and his payday loan industry bosses shocking

1303
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 1: control over her work, and one December email, Miller asked

1304
01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:21,679
Speaker 1: her to change the way she analyzed data about borrow

1305
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:25,040
Speaker 1: where credit scores. Priestly responded, I am here to serve.

1306
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 1: I just want to make sure that what I am

1307
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:30,640
Speaker 1: doing analytically is reflecting your thinking. The email ended with

1308
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:36,960
Speaker 1: a smiley face when the report was yeah. When the

1309
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 1: report was published, it noted that Miller's nonprofit, which was

1310
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 1: essentially a mouthpiece for the payday loan industry, did not

1311
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:46,639
Speaker 1: exercise any control over the editorial content of her paper,

1312
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:49,080
Speaker 1: But when The Post interviewed her, Priestly admitted that she

1313
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:51,479
Speaker 1: offered to share authorship of the report with Miller, and

1314
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:54,800
Speaker 1: he declined. Now, one of Hillary Miller's goals for his

1315
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 1: pet academic was to have her attack the idea that

1316
01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:00,080
Speaker 1: payday loan's trapped people in an unending cycle of debt.

1317
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:03,600
Speaker 1: Two fourteen Consumer Financial Bureau study found that most borrowers

1318
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:05,360
Speaker 1: are forced to renew their loans so many times that

1319
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:07,759
Speaker 1: they pay more in fees than the actual amount they borrow.

1320
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:11,160
Speaker 1: In March of two fourteen, Miller sent Priestly an email

1321
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:14,200
Speaker 1: asking her to avoid the term cycle of debt in general.

1322
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:16,240
Speaker 1: We do not accept the notion that a cycle of

1323
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:18,519
Speaker 1: debt even exists, and I would appreciate it if you

1324
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 1: would delete all references to this term unless you are

1325
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:26,960
Speaker 1: rebutting its existence. Oh my god, Priestley did as she

1326
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:33,360
Speaker 1: was asked, who is this asshole? I mean that just

1327
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:38,559
Speaker 1: trotted onto the scene like what she's where does? You

1328
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:41,120
Speaker 1: could almost say she's kind of like the people who

1329
01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:43,400
Speaker 1: are being taken advantage of the payday loan industry, and

1330
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:49,200
Speaker 1: that she needed a chunk of money quickly, and she was.

1331
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:53,599
Speaker 1: She was, she was caught in the cycle. Yeah yeah,

1332
01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 1: and they I mean, I mean they're not charging her

1333
01:09:56,280 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 1: interest for the thirty grand I'll give them that. But well,

1334
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:05,800
Speaker 1: that is still fucked shade. And that is a that's

1335
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,920
Speaker 1: in modern that's like recent, that's a recent thing. You

1336
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:13,080
Speaker 1: were researching it the other day and you yeah, we're

1337
01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:16,360
Speaker 1: about to get some other person is going to be

1338
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:18,519
Speaker 1: researching like whether or not the should take out a loan,

1339
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:20,600
Speaker 1: and they're going to come across an article being like

1340
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:22,880
Speaker 1: they're not that bad, and then they're gonna just it's

1341
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:25,440
Speaker 1: going to continue. It actually gets a lot more infuriating

1342
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:28,800
Speaker 1: than that. Oh my god. Okay, let's hear it. So,

1343
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:32,000
Speaker 1: according to the Washington Post quote, as the publication of

1344
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:35,040
Speaker 1: the study neared, Miller congratulated Priestly on her work. Priestly

1345
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:37,719
Speaker 1: study found that paid a loan customers who repeatedly borrow

1346
01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:40,439
Speaker 1: money over a long period have better financial outcomes than

1347
01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:43,360
Speaker 1: those who borrow for a shorter time. These borrowers also

1348
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:45,679
Speaker 1: benefited from living in states where paid a lending wasn't

1349
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:48,639
Speaker 1: heavily restricted. The report found, this is a terrific paper,

1350
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:51,760
Speaker 1: he said in April email. When it is done, you're

1351
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:53,479
Speaker 1: going to be famous and your phone will ring off

1352
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 1: the hook. The group was developing a strategy for releasing

1353
01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:57,840
Speaker 1: the report. He said, we want them to believe that

1354
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:02,639
Speaker 1: the results are honest, verifiable, and most portantly correct. Now

1355
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 1: sharene If this was just one cooked study, it would

1356
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:09,160
Speaker 1: be damning, but not damning of all of the different

1357
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:11,439
Speaker 1: studies that I came across that seemed to have positive

1358
01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:13,640
Speaker 1: things to say about the pay day loan industry. But

1359
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:16,639
Speaker 1: of course it wasn't just one study. The Huffington Post

1360
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 1: published an article in two thousand fifteen that discussed the

1361
01:11:19,080 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 1: payday loan industry interference into multiple studies, including a two

1362
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 1: thousand eleven paper do payday loans trapped consumers and a

1363
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 1: cycle of debt? One guess as to the paper's conclusions.

1364
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:31,680
Speaker 1: Here's the Huffington Post quote. The email show that the

1365
01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:34,800
Speaker 1: payday loan industry gave economics professor Mark Fussoro at least

1366
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:37,519
Speaker 1: thirty nine thousand, nine twelve dollars to write his paper

1367
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:40,759
Speaker 1: and paid an undisclosed sum to his research partner, Patricia Cerrillo.

1368
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:43,679
Speaker 1: In response, the industry received early drafts of the paper

1369
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:46,720
Speaker 1: provided line by line revisions suggested deleting a section that

1370
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:49,839
Speaker 1: reflected poorly end payday lenders, and even removed a disclosure

1371
01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:52,760
Speaker 1: detailing the role paid a lending played In the preparation

1372
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:56,120
Speaker 1: of the paper. Fusaro cut two critical findings from his

1373
01:11:56,120 --> 01:11:58,679
Speaker 1: paper at Miller's behest. First was a finding that payday

1374
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 1: loan borrowers tended to have freequent debt over drafts and

1375
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:04,240
Speaker 1: the debit overdrafts in the period before their loan. This

1376
01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 1: looked bad for the industry because one of their chief

1377
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:08,920
Speaker 1: claims that most borrowers could afford the loans they were

1378
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:13,120
Speaker 1: stable people dealing with emergencies. Obviously, if people were failing

1379
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:15,120
Speaker 1: to pay their debts prior to getting a paid a loan,

1380
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:17,120
Speaker 1: then it makes it seem like the paid a loan

1381
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 1: industry is just taking advantage of people who are having

1382
01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:23,200
Speaker 1: financial difficulties. In an email, Fusorrow's coofered author told him

1383
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:26,639
Speaker 1: quote Hillary called me the other day for an update.

1384
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:28,639
Speaker 1: I told him about where we were in data collection

1385
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:31,000
Speaker 1: and also this other finding. I suspect he isn't too

1386
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:33,080
Speaker 1: happy about that finding and pointed out it wasn't the

1387
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:36,639
Speaker 1: original objective of the study. I acknowledge that they cut

1388
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:39,519
Speaker 1: this finding. Miller also had them cut a chunk of

1389
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:41,439
Speaker 1: the author's note, which would have disclosed that paid A

1390
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:43,880
Speaker 1: lending companies had helped to write the study. Here's a

1391
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 1: quote from Miller in an email he sent to them.

1392
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:48,719
Speaker 1: The unnamed paid A lenders and the unnamed blind reviewers

1393
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:50,759
Speaker 1: do not need or want your thanks. It will actually

1394
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:53,720
Speaker 1: undermine the lenders objectives and participating in the study. If

1395
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:57,240
Speaker 1: you do so, so, that's cool. I I think just

1396
01:12:57,400 --> 01:13:01,800
Speaker 1: the phrase objective of the study is already just like

1397
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:04,400
Speaker 1: does not make any sense. You don't make a study

1398
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:11,280
Speaker 1: with an objective. You study too to find the correct response.

1399
01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:12,920
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like, if you go into

1400
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:17,639
Speaker 1: a study quote unquote with an objective, you're already skewing it. Yeah,

1401
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:21,000
Speaker 1: it makes no sense. The objective of science is to

1402
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:26,280
Speaker 1: arrive at the truth through the testing of like observable phenomena.

1403
01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 1: Not that's what I'm saying exactly, it's you don't have

1404
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:32,639
Speaker 1: an objective going in that doesn't make any fucking sense. Yeah,

1405
01:13:33,120 --> 01:13:37,880
Speaker 1: it's frustrating. It's the same people that like fact check

1406
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 1: fucking scientists when it comes to climate change. They just

1407
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:45,599
Speaker 1: make up their own definitions of what the words facts mean,

1408
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:48,320
Speaker 1: what the words study means, and then people just buy

1409
01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:53,560
Speaker 1: into it because they haven't learned this new definition that's incorrect. Now,

1410
01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:56,559
Speaker 1: dream you may not remember from way back in two

1411
01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:59,000
Speaker 1: thousand eight, but one of the things that President Obama

1412
01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:01,400
Speaker 1: ran on when he was first running for election was

1413
01:14:01,439 --> 01:14:04,519
Speaker 1: that he was going to reform the paid a loan industry. Uh.

1414
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:07,839
Speaker 1: And he spent years and years and years as president

1415
01:14:08,240 --> 01:14:11,439
Speaker 1: having the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau figure out a list

1416
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:14,400
Speaker 1: of rules that they could kick into place to essentially

1417
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:18,400
Speaker 1: wipe out the payday loan industries it currently exists. Uh.

1418
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:21,080
Speaker 1: And near the end of his term, they finally like

1419
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:23,639
Speaker 1: hit upon exactly what new restrictions they needed to put

1420
01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:27,040
Speaker 1: in place. Um. Now, they announced these restrictions in two

1421
01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:29,519
Speaker 1: thousands seventeen, and they were expected to reduce paid A

1422
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:33,040
Speaker 1: loan volume by sixty UM. So this would have been

1423
01:14:33,080 --> 01:14:38,520
Speaker 1: a massive hit to uh an incredibly slimy industry. However,

1424
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:42,800
Speaker 1: a couple of months ago that the new restrictions should

1425
01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:45,240
Speaker 1: have hit in August of two thousand nineteen, but very

1426
01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 1: recently the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau under President Trump changed

1427
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:51,559
Speaker 1: course and scrapped most of the proposed changes the Obama

1428
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:54,320
Speaker 1: administration it's spent years putting together and preparing to implement.

1429
01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:58,439
Speaker 1: According to the Motley Fool quote, the CFPB will get

1430
01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:00,799
Speaker 1: most of the rules that previously sought, leaving only modest

1431
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:03,040
Speaker 1: changes to paid A lending practices. The one rule that

1432
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:06,439
Speaker 1: remains impacts lenders collection of loan payments. Most borrowers pay

1433
01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:08,920
Speaker 1: by automatic bank drafts. Under the new rule, after two

1434
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:11,559
Speaker 1: failed withdrawal attempts, lenders would have to get authorization for

1435
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:15,240
Speaker 1: any additional withdrawal attempts, and that's it. Everything else gets

1436
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:19,400
Speaker 1: to stay. The article. Also, so the things that Obama

1437
01:15:19,439 --> 01:15:21,559
Speaker 1: tried to implement since he was elected in two thousand

1438
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:26,000
Speaker 1: and eight were it was gonna be like until last August,

1439
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:28,960
Speaker 1: like like eleven years later, like well, I mean it

1440
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 1: took like it took Uh, yeah, it took a long time, um,

1441
01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:38,440
Speaker 1: like long enough for Trump to overturn it. Basically, yeah, exactly. Um.

1442
01:15:38,479 --> 01:15:40,800
Speaker 1: And it's it's worth noting that in April of two

1443
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:44,439
Speaker 1: thou eighteen, not that long before the CFPB changed its rules,

1444
01:15:44,439 --> 01:15:47,080
Speaker 1: the paid a loan industry trade group, the Consumer Financial

1445
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:50,920
Speaker 1: Services Association, held its annual conference. You want to guess

1446
01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:54,880
Speaker 1: where they held there, two thousand eighteen annual conference? In

1447
01:15:54,960 --> 01:15:57,320
Speaker 1: my butt hole? I don't know. No, not not in

1448
01:15:57,360 --> 01:15:59,800
Speaker 1: your butth hole, but in the Trump National Dooral Golf

1449
01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:03,439
Speaker 1: Club in Miami. That's that's the same place. Yeah, yeah,

1450
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:05,320
Speaker 1: it is. It is a butt hole, that's for sure.

1451
01:16:06,240 --> 01:16:13,599
Speaker 1: It's now all of our buttles. Ah. How you feeling sharing?

1452
01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:18,840
Speaker 1: I mean, more therapy is what I'm feeling. But you know,

1453
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:23,320
Speaker 1: there are moments where you have such little faith in

1454
01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:28,840
Speaker 1: humanity that you're just like, what's the point? Why why

1455
01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:32,880
Speaker 1: am I still here? Um? And I'm glad that coming

1456
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:35,519
Speaker 1: onto your show really makes me think of my life

1457
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:39,479
Speaker 1: as such a meaningless blip in in a white man's game.

1458
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:43,280
Speaker 1: So thank you for that. Robert, Well, you're welcome sharene I.

1459
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 1: You know, hope is as toxic as cigarettes. According to

1460
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:53,000
Speaker 1: uh to most World Health Organization reports. So is that

1461
01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:56,320
Speaker 1: in a recent study, was that their objective to find? Okay, yeah,

1462
01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:59,480
Speaker 1: it was actually funded by the paid a loan industry. Um,

1463
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:02,320
Speaker 1: so you know it's good. But if this entire episode

1464
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:06,200
Speaker 1: was just like a huge ad for like the payday loan,

1465
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:09,160
Speaker 1: Like what if like you were sponsored actually at this point,

1466
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:12,080
Speaker 1: I would be nothing would surprise me if you were actually,

1467
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 1: if you were actually like Scott Tucker, Sun or some

1468
01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:17,160
Speaker 1: ship well you know, Sharine, if you really do need

1469
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:20,800
Speaker 1: a short term loan, Americash can can leave you a

1470
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:25,280
Speaker 1: thousand dollars, no questions asked and interest rates less than

1471
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 1: you know, and that's that's pretty low. Nine hundreds of

1472
01:17:29,000 --> 01:17:31,479
Speaker 1: smaller number than a thousand, So you're kind of making bank.

1473
01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:35,200
Speaker 1: Those are numbers that that are smaller than the other

1474
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:37,679
Speaker 1: you know, those are numbers. Those are numbers. That's actually

1475
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:42,200
Speaker 1: the motto of Americash. You know. You know, um, you know,

1476
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:46,439
Speaker 1: like when you strain too hard on the toilet and

1477
01:17:46,600 --> 01:17:50,320
Speaker 1: like maybe pop out of hemorrhoid or two, and your

1478
01:17:50,360 --> 01:17:55,479
Speaker 1: asshole becomes unredeemable, an unredeemable as that is Scott Tucker,

1479
01:17:56,280 --> 01:18:00,160
Speaker 1: he is an unredeemable asshole, and he's just a you

1480
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:02,639
Speaker 1: can't go back after that. You can't. You can maybe

1481
01:18:02,640 --> 01:18:05,920
Speaker 1: you could tuck in a hemorrhoid or two on a

1482
01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:07,640
Speaker 1: good day, but most of the days they're just like,

1483
01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:10,559
Speaker 1: have you have a little tag, just just flopping in

1484
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:15,960
Speaker 1: the wind. I might say, I might say that Scott Tucker,

1485
01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:19,719
Speaker 1: like the whole payday loan industry is an unredeemable asshole,

1486
01:18:19,840 --> 01:18:24,360
Speaker 1: and Scott Tucker is one particularly flappy hemorrhoid. Yeah, yeah,

1487
01:18:24,800 --> 01:18:27,799
Speaker 1: I like that metaphor. And then on the next episode

1488
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:30,439
Speaker 1: of The Magic School Bus, We're gonna go straight into

1489
01:18:30,439 --> 01:18:37,639
Speaker 1: the asshole. We're gonna be the enema, the enema going

1490
01:18:37,760 --> 01:18:45,400
Speaker 1: right in before a really uh rigorous uh, just a

1491
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:51,880
Speaker 1: night of really crazy strap on pegging. Um, I'm pissed.

1492
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:56,360
Speaker 1: When I'm pissed, I talked about, butts you talk about

1493
01:18:56,360 --> 01:18:59,519
Speaker 1: when you're pissed. I'm starting to realize this, which is pegging,

1494
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:04,479
Speaker 1: is not don't don't, uh don't. It's a fun it's

1495
01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:07,960
Speaker 1: a fun time. I'm sure. I'm sure you. I'm sure

1496
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:09,880
Speaker 1: you'd be open to it. I think if I know

1497
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:12,040
Speaker 1: anything about you, you'd be open to pegging. I have

1498
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 1: I have no issues with pegging. Pegging is much more

1499
01:19:14,160 --> 01:19:18,320
Speaker 1: ethical than, for example, the payday loan industry. I agree.

1500
01:19:18,560 --> 01:19:21,599
Speaker 1: And if can we get sponsored by pegging the concept

1501
01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:24,760
Speaker 1: of pegging, Yeah, we'll just try to just get a

1502
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:28,080
Speaker 1: strap on sponsor. I will. I'm just trying to make

1503
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:30,679
Speaker 1: myself feel better. I'm trying to make myself feel better

1504
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:33,519
Speaker 1: after this awful decision I had to come on your

1505
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 1: show again. So, um, I'm thinking of pegging. Well, I'm

1506
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:40,640
Speaker 1: thinking that next we should talk about Jacob Wohl for

1507
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:44,880
Speaker 1: like an hour. How does that feel A nice palate cleanser, Yeah,

1508
01:19:45,040 --> 01:19:47,840
Speaker 1: nice palate cleanser. I mean those of you have that

1509
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:50,800
Speaker 1: have been following the show probably remember me from being

1510
01:19:50,840 --> 01:19:55,559
Speaker 1: on the other Grifters episode. Um, and like last week

1511
01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 1: or something, the tweets about there are first episode together

1512
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:02,320
Speaker 1: there with Jacob Ball and the Grifters started getting a

1513
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:05,559
Speaker 1: lot of like retweets and comments again, so I was like, Oh,

1514
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:08,240
Speaker 1: I guess he's like in the news. So I'm curious

1515
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 1: what you have for me today for update me on

1516
01:20:11,240 --> 01:20:14,200
Speaker 1: this on this fucker's life. Well sharene you and I

1517
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:17,240
Speaker 1: will have that conversation in a manner of minutes. But

1518
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:20,120
Speaker 1: for our listeners. It will happen on Thursday when they

1519
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:22,920
Speaker 1: hear the next episode Behind the Bastards. So before we

1520
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:24,840
Speaker 1: break for that, do you want to plug some plug

1521
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:28,400
Speaker 1: doubles which is different from pegging pegables? UM, you know,

1522
01:20:28,439 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 1: anal plugs are also a thing, but not today. Today,

1523
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:35,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to plug the podcast. I co host Ethnically Ambiguous.

1524
01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:40,000
Speaker 1: It's a fun time. UM. I co hosted with my

1525
01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:43,640
Speaker 1: friend uh Anna Hosni. I was gonna say Anna, but

1526
01:20:43,680 --> 01:20:47,080
Speaker 1: we can call her both um. And we talked about

1527
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:51,320
Speaker 1: Middle Eastern experience in the US, being daughters of immigrants,

1528
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:53,960
Speaker 1: and we also have fun guests on just like me

1529
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:57,720
Speaker 1: that I'm a guest on this one. UM, that's what

1530
01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:00,599
Speaker 1: podcasting is, okay. Anyway, you can follow us on Ethnically

1531
01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:03,960
Speaker 1: am am B on Twitter, Ethnically am B, Ethnically am Big,

1532
01:21:04,120 --> 01:21:06,840
Speaker 1: m B I G on Instagram, and I'm Shiro Hero

1533
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:09,519
Speaker 1: on instagram s h E e r O h E

1534
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:12,439
Speaker 1: r O and Twitter at Shiro Hero six six six.

1535
01:21:13,520 --> 01:21:18,280
Speaker 1: I hope you guys enjoyed this episode more than I did,

1536
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:21,320
Speaker 1: and I hope that you enjoyed this episode more than

1537
01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:24,080
Speaker 1: I enjoyed. Reading about paid a loans Um. You can

1538
01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:25,960
Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at I right, okay. You can

1539
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:29,679
Speaker 1: find this podcast on the twin Instagram's at Bastards pod.

1540
01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:31,880
Speaker 1: You can find our website with all the sources for

1541
01:21:31,920 --> 01:21:35,400
Speaker 1: this at behind the Bastards dot com. I have another

1542
01:21:35,439 --> 01:21:39,280
Speaker 1: podcast called it Could Happen Here, and it's about the

1543
01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:42,000
Speaker 1: Second American Civil War, which, after an episode like this,

1544
01:21:42,040 --> 01:21:45,439
Speaker 1: seems almost more optimistic than just letting some of this continue.

1545
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:48,800
Speaker 1: But it's not. It can happen here, can happen? It

1546
01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:52,559
Speaker 1: could happen here? Aspirationally? Um, but no, it's a super

1547
01:21:52,560 --> 01:21:56,200
Speaker 1: big bummer. It's very sad. Uh. That's oh. You buy

1548
01:21:56,280 --> 01:21:59,479
Speaker 1: T shirts on t public dot com. You can also

1549
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:03,120
Speaker 1: get some pay day loans from t public dot com. Um,

1550
01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:06,240
Speaker 1: enter the code Robert Evans and you'll get like a

1551
01:22:06,360 --> 01:22:11,679
Speaker 1: nine h yeah versus a thousand percent. Yep. We'll knock

1552
01:22:11,680 --> 01:22:14,519
Speaker 1: a p off of that interest rate for you. That's

1553
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:16,760
Speaker 1: all I got for today, Sophie, would you toss some

1554
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:21,640
Speaker 1: bagels angrily against the wall for me? Just at that

1555
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:24,200
Speaker 1: it ricocheted off the wall and landed right back into

1556
01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:26,200
Speaker 1: her lap. It was a beautiful thing. Physics is a

1557
01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:30,839
Speaker 1: real Fantasysics is fantastic. That was the first remote bagel

1558
01:22:30,920 --> 01:22:33,320
Speaker 1: throwing that I think anyone has ever engaged in, so

1559
01:22:34,040 --> 01:22:37,920
Speaker 1: you know we're This is a ground breaking show, ground

1560
01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:41,719
Speaker 1: breaking show, and until next week's groundbreaking episode. I loved

1561
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:42,160
Speaker 1: about