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Speaker 1: From Fudro Media and pr X it's Latino USA. I'm

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Speaker 1: Mariano Rosa Today. How a lawsuit filed in Argentina brings

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Speaker 1: closure to victims of the Franco dictatorship.

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Speaker 2: In Spain El Pole.

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Speaker 1: On April twenty eighth, twenty nineteen, Spain held elections to

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Speaker 1: choose the National Parliament, which in turn voted to select a.

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Speaker 3: Prime ministers icon A.

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Speaker 1: Japerio in Passao, the winning Socialist party has pledged to

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Speaker 1: exhume the remains of Francisco Franco, Spain's former dictator, who

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Speaker 1: died in nineteen sen seventy five and is buried under

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Speaker 1: a massive mausoleum. They say Franco doesn't deserve the honor

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Speaker 1: of having a major monument to his life. But this

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Speaker 1: pledge has caused some controversy with people on the right

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Speaker 1: who supported the dictator, and mixed into all of this,

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Speaker 1: there are also demands from victims of the Spanish dictatorship

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Speaker 1: to find and recover the remains of those who were

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Speaker 1: killed and were buried in mass graves during Franco's forty

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Speaker 1: year rule.

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Speaker 2: He Yo de la Fochia HeLa.

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Speaker 1: The issue of victim's remains has been a major feature

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Speaker 1: of the national conversation in Spain recently and is now

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Speaker 1: the topic of a documentary film. Over six years, Emmy

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Speaker 1: Award winning filmmakers On Mudena Carraseo and Robert Bahar have

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Speaker 1: been following a movement for justice that began with a

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Speaker 1: kitchen table conversation and has evolved into a groundbreaking international

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Speaker 1: lawsuit that brought together he hundreds of survivors of the

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Speaker 1: dictatorship Keggio Framarza Tolousi laos ken.

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Speaker 3: Francismo.

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Speaker 1: The result is a touching documentary, Elilenzio DeRos or The

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Speaker 1: Silence of Others, which follows the development of this lawsuit

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Speaker 1: as it pieces together the stories of some of the

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Speaker 1: victims of Franco's unbridled violence and connects this with the

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Speaker 1: country's recent history.

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Speaker 2: Implemento Nolvido Una mistia de toros paratos unlvidos paratos Nalai.

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Speaker 1: The film, which was executive produced by acclaimed director Pedrol Modovar,

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Speaker 1: won the twenty nineteen Goya Award, which is the Spanish

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Speaker 1: equivalent of the Oscars. In twenty nineteen, directors al Mudena

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Speaker 1: Carraselo and Robert Bahar join me to talk about their

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Speaker 1: film all the way from Madrid. We're really happy to

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Speaker 1: bring you this conversation once again today and welcome to

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Speaker 1: Latino USA. Al Mudena and Robert oh Law, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much, thank you, and right now the both of

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Speaker 1: you are in Madrid. Am I right?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Correct, yes, I wish I was there is all I

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Speaker 1: can say. Madrid is one of my all time favorite cities.

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Speaker 3: I love it.

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Speaker 2: I'm wonderful.

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Speaker 1: But you know, when people think now of Spain, they

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Speaker 1: think of Madrid there like fabulous cosmopolitan city that's like

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Speaker 1: up all night. They think of Barcelona, this really bohemian place.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of people right now are not thinking

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Speaker 1: about the fact that for almost forty years Spain lived

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Speaker 1: under the dictatorship of Francisco Franco.

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Speaker 2: It's great that you bring it out because very often

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Speaker 2: we think of the Franco dictatorship, if anyone knows about it,

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Speaker 2: you know, we think of beaches and nice weather. We

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Speaker 2: don't realize that a lot of the tourists that came

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Speaker 2: to Spain during that time were coming too a country

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Speaker 2: where people were being tortured, people were being murdered, so

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Speaker 2: there was a complete lack of freedom of you know,

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Speaker 2: freend of a press, freenom of expression. Obviously, for a

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Speaker 2: lot of people who fought against it, it was a

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Speaker 2: very deadly dictatorship.

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Speaker 1: Now, in nineteen seventy five, Francisco Franco, the dictator dies,

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Speaker 1: and I mean, I just can't imagine what that is

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Speaker 1: like to suddenly the dictator has died, and now it's

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Speaker 1: time to move into a democratic system.

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Speaker 3: What's really fascinating is that in the case of sping,

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Speaker 3: Franco died while he was still in power, and part

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Speaker 3: of what that meant was that his regime had tremendous

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Speaker 3: power and control in the process of shaping what democracy

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Speaker 3: would look like in Spain, and that these two models

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Speaker 3: has transition through rupture. Where there's a revolution is just

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Speaker 3: to break with the past. This is transitioned through transaction

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Speaker 3: where they negotiate with the outgoing regime. And so many

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Speaker 3: of the ministers and the powers that be in the

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Speaker 3: Franco regime helped shape the democracy. There ended up being

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Speaker 3: a tremendous continuity between especially judges, the judiciary, the security forces, police, military,

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Speaker 3: many of the same families and the same officials continued.

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Speaker 1: So as part of this there's a discussion about amnesty right,

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Speaker 1: how to deal with the crimes, you know, human rights

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Speaker 1: violations that occurred under the dictatorship. And then there's a

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Speaker 1: decision to create what is known in English as a

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Speaker 1: pact of forgetting and Espanol.

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Speaker 2: Is el Pacto de lolo.

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Speaker 1: El Pacto del olvido, which.

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Speaker 2: Is as if you could create a pact for that, and.

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Speaker 1: It basically says, we as a country are basically going

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Speaker 1: to say what's done is done. Forty years of dictatorship done,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to make a pact to forget.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And its main purpose was originally to free from

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Speaker 3: the left political prisoners, but they added a clause to

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Speaker 3: the amnesty law that said none of the crimes of

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Speaker 3: the dictatorship would ever be prosecuted.

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Speaker 2: The big problem with that, obviously, is that you're crafting

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Speaker 2: a transition into democracy at the expense of hundreds of

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Speaker 2: thousands of people who will not get justice or even

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Speaker 2: truth or even reparations. We're talking about thousands and thousands

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Speaker 2: of people whose family members were killed, murdered and buried

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Speaker 2: in mass graves still unknown mass graves all over the country.

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Speaker 2: One hundred and forty thousand people are still buried in

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Speaker 2: mass graves, and it's very important to remember the film

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Speaker 2: is about the present. What is the legacy of that

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Speaker 2: packed into the present day today in a democracy that

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Speaker 2: it's now forty years old.

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Speaker 1: But in your film, actually when you go and you're

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Speaker 1: asking Spaniards, hey, do you know about you know, the

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Speaker 1: pact of forgetting? Do you know about this amnesty? You

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Speaker 1: know in terms of the crimes that were committed under Franco,

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Speaker 1: And it turns out that a lot of Spaniards don't

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Speaker 1: even know. So how is that possible?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think what's so fascinating about the fact that

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Speaker 3: people don't know is that the pact of forgetting worked,

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Speaker 3: and the pact of forgetting in a sense comes from

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Speaker 3: Franco's discourse during forty years. If you look at many people,

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Speaker 3: if you look at almotin his parents, for example, people

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Speaker 3: spent their entire lives, they're born under dictatorship and lived

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Speaker 3: under dictatorship, and so the discourse was we shouldn't talk

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Speaker 3: about that. It's dangerous to talk about that. And as

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Speaker 3: you reach the transition this idea to forget, the only

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Speaker 3: way we can ave forward as a society is to

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Speaker 3: put this behind us. Turn the page and move on

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Speaker 3: was very convincing to a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: The film starts with this really beautiful sequence of a

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Speaker 1: quite elderly woman who's kind of wrapping her hair, and

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Speaker 1: then she's getting her little walker, and she's in a small,

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Speaker 1: little Spanish village, and then she gets to the side

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Speaker 1: of a two lane highway and you know, she just

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Speaker 1: lays flowers down and says, this is where her mother

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Speaker 1: was murdered by the Franco regime.

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Speaker 2: Know that this was a very powerful scene for us

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Speaker 2: because it represented a lot of well, it's happened in Spain,

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Speaker 2: and it has happened in Spain right, the fact that

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Speaker 2: you could pave over a mass grave, tried to bury

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Speaker 2: the past, try to do as though it didn't exist,

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Speaker 2: this modern day democracy where the past has been buried,

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Speaker 2: but where there are people, thousands and thousands of people

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Speaker 2: who cannot forget and who go every day to the

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Speaker 2: side of the roads to put flowers.

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Speaker 1: So I think that something that a lot of people

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Speaker 1: will remember is that it actually turns out that in

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Speaker 1: Spain there is a judge who ends up indicting a

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Speaker 1: former dictator happens to be the former dictator of Chile

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Speaker 1: Agusto Pinochet, and that sets a precedent.

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Speaker 4: In Spain. There's a judge who for more than a

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Speaker 4: decade has been chasing drug lords and dictators, terrorists and

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Speaker 4: corrupt politicians from across the globe. His name Baltasar Garzon.

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Speaker 4: He is arrest warrant for the late Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet,

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Speaker 4: set an international president.

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Speaker 3: What's so fascinating is that Judge Garson was a pioneer

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Speaker 3: and the Spanish courts were actually pioneers in using this

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Speaker 3: principle called universal jurisdiction to pursue human rights crimes in Chile,

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Speaker 3: in Argentina, and actually in many places around the world.

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Speaker 3: And this put Spain at the forefront of seeking justice

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Speaker 3: after dictatorial regimes. And after indicting former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet,

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Speaker 3: Garson started an investigation into the crimes of the Franco

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Speaker 3: dictatorship and he really started to open this and he

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Speaker 3: was put on trial in Spain for violating space means

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Speaker 3: amnesty law, and that opened the way for victims of

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Speaker 3: these crimes to go to Argentina to open the case

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Speaker 3: there using that same principle universal jurisdiction to investigate the

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Speaker 3: crimes of Francoism.

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Speaker 2: You know, once the doors close in Spain, that's when

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Speaker 2: the doors of justice can open somewhere else, and the

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Speaker 2: case falls under Maria Levini the Kurria, which is a

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Speaker 2: judge that has been following very closely. She's known to

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Speaker 2: be the judge for the stolen children in Argentina. Between

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six and nineteen eighty three, during the dictatorship

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Speaker 2: in Argentina, five hundred babies were stolen from their parents

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Speaker 2: who were opponents of the regime. It's a curious thing because,

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Speaker 2: as you were saying, you know, Spain became a model

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Speaker 2: of how to do a transition, and in fact, many

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Speaker 2: many years later in Spain we look to Latin American

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Speaker 2: democracies to give us a lesson about memory.

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Speaker 1: Coming up on Latino USA, the lawsuit moves forward and

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Speaker 1: hundreds of victims join the cause. Stay with us. Yes, hey,

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Speaker 1: we're back, and we're going to continue our conversation now

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Speaker 1: with Almudena Carrasselo and Robert Bahar. They're the directors of

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Speaker 1: the documentary The Silence of Others, which follows the development

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Speaker 1: of a lawsuit filed in Argentina to address crimes committed

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Speaker 1: during this Spanish dictatorship. So it turns out that it's

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Speaker 1: actually went over six years that you were working on

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Speaker 1: the film. There's an older gentleman who was tortured by

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Speaker 1: members of the Franco regime, and he speaks very specifically

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Speaker 1: about the kind of torture that he experienced. And the

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Speaker 1: thing is is that he remembers who it was who

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Speaker 1: was torturing him. And many years later, it turns out

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Speaker 1: that this man ends up living blocks away from his torture.

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Speaker 3: That was absolutely shocking to us. I think, for me,

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Speaker 3: as someone who grew up in the United States, just

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Speaker 3: as you said earlier, I don't think of Spain as

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Speaker 3: a country where someone could be living a few hundred

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Speaker 3: meters from his torturer. From a policeman nicknamed Billy the Kid,

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Speaker 3: who actually everyone in Madrid knows the name Billy the Kid.

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Speaker 3: There have been newspaper articles about Billy the Kid since

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventy nine or nineteen eighty, and recently it was

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Speaker 3: even discovered that in the days ear days of democracy,

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Speaker 3: Billy the Kid was actually awarded various medals for excellent

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Speaker 3: meritorious conduct, and thus the state pension that he receives

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Speaker 3: has a fifty percent bump. And then there was even

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Speaker 3: even more recent issue where there was a party held

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Speaker 3: at a police station in the center of Madrid and

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Speaker 3: someone took a photograph and they saw that Billy the

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Speaker 3: kid was real named as Antonio Gonzales Pacheco, had been

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Speaker 3: invited to that party, and so the present day National

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Speaker 3: Police Force was still communicating with him and had welcomed

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Speaker 3: him at an event.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that you uncover in your film

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Speaker 1: is kind of the crimes of the dictatorship of Franco

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Speaker 1: really live on. Of course, there's legacy, there's impact, there's trauma,

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Speaker 1: but then you talk about something that my jaw just

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Speaker 1: dropped because it's a story that we know so well

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Speaker 1: from Argentina and it's tatorship, which was the stolen children, right,

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Speaker 1: children who were taken when their parents were disappeared and murdered,

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Speaker 1: and it turns out that the same thing exists in Spain.

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Speaker 1: You have the stolen children of Spain.

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Speaker 3: Well, the story of the stolen children in Spain goes

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Speaker 3: back to the very end of the Spanish Civil War.

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Speaker 2: Laya mammos La Espanola Piro Comentho.

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Speaker 3: And it started with a psychiatrist who was the head

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Speaker 3: of military psychiatry under Franco and his name was Bijonahara,

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Speaker 3: and he had written books and he had said eugenics

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Speaker 3: theories under the Nazis, and he believed that by separating

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Speaker 3: children of the Reds, children of Republican families, that you

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Speaker 3: could cleanse the children of those ideas and a sort

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Speaker 3: of a eugenics kind of idea. And so the idea

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Speaker 3: of stealing children started by taking children from Republican mothers

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Speaker 3: who were in jail, possibly about to be executed at

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Speaker 3: the end of the Spanish Civil War, and giving those

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Speaker 3: children to families that were loyal to the regime, in

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Speaker 3: some cases perhaps military families. That was in the early years,

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Speaker 3: and as you moved past the nineteen forties, the patterns

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Speaker 3: seemed to change and instead of taking children from politically

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Speaker 3: unfit or unacceptable families, they start to target morally unfit

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Speaker 3: families to single mothers, families are very poor families with

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Speaker 3: eleven children, and there are stories of deathbed confessions where

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Speaker 3: parents have said, I must tell you you are not

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Speaker 3: actually our child. We bought you, or every summer when

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Speaker 3: we went, we had to actually make installment payments. And

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Speaker 3: it is a terrible scandal. It's very difficult to know

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Speaker 3: the scale. In Garson's investigation, he estimated that there have

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Speaker 3: been thirty thousand potential cases up to about nineteen fifty five.

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Speaker 3: There are some people who estimate into the hundreds of

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Speaker 3: thousands through today.

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Speaker 1: So I'm watching the movie at my desk in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the day, you know, prepping for the interview,

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Speaker 1: and then I'm getting to the end of the film

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Speaker 1: and I got to be honest with you, I mean,

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Speaker 1: the tears just start streaming down my face because what

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Speaker 1: ends up happening is that thanks to the Argentinian judge,

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Speaker 1: one of the older women survivors, her name is Asencion,

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Speaker 1: she's told that her father's remains are going to be exhumed.

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Speaker 1: And there's this moment when you are there when they

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Speaker 1: find the remains of Asencion's father, along with the remains

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Speaker 1: of twenty one other people, and all we're seeing is

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Speaker 1: a skull. But for us, since you know, who hasn't

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Speaker 1: seen her father, who has disappeared and put into this

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Speaker 1: mass grave. The moment when she sees this skull and

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Speaker 1: we know that it's her father. She says, Oh, it

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Speaker 1: was so dramatic.

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Speaker 2: Your pay can do I right, she says, ay a

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Speaker 2: whole life underground. That was one of the sort of

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Speaker 2: most emotionally powerful moments for us as filmmakers. When the

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Speaker 2: viewers crying, you really need to picture us crying there too.

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Speaker 1: Where do things stand now? Where is the lawsuit? Does

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Speaker 1: the story end with the lawsuit? What is the next

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Speaker 1: chapter of Spain?

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Speaker 3: In terms of what's happening in the Argentine lawsuit, the

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Speaker 3: lawsuit continues. Despite many kind words from the government. There

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Speaker 3: is still this amnesty law. There is still this impunity

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Speaker 3: and it's actually fascinating. The lawyers told us that after

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Speaker 3: watching the film there were some people who had been

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Speaker 3: scared to become plaintiffs and to join the Argentine lawsuit,

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Speaker 3: and they have now joined the lawsuit and have sent

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Speaker 3: their stories to Judge Cervini in Buenos Aires. In terms

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Speaker 3: of the impact that the film is having, just couple

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Speaker 3: of weeks ago, the film was seen by more than

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Speaker 3: a million people here that night. Ten minutes after the

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Speaker 3: broadcast ended, many of the plaintiffs in the suit launched

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Speaker 3: a petition asking that the government modify that amnesty laws

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Speaker 3: so that it cannot be applied to crimes against humanity.

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Speaker 3: There are now more than one hundred and fifty thousand

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Speaker 3: signatures on that petition, and so there's a hope that

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Speaker 3: the more visibility that this has, the more that through

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Speaker 3: cultural means as well as through legal means, this pact

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Speaker 3: of forgetting is broken and there is remembering that there

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Speaker 3: can be change.

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Speaker 2: We just launched actually something called our less Cone Memoria,

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Speaker 2: so that every school and high school in the country

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Speaker 2: can screen the film for free Our Les Memoria, meaning

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Speaker 2: Classrooms with Memory, and it really is very beautiful and

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Speaker 2: very powerful what films can do in terms of helping

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Speaker 2: people understand, helping people empathize, helping people take action. And

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Speaker 2: so their journey continues.

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Speaker 3: But there was also just an election in Spain on Sunday,

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Speaker 3: and on the one hand, spain Socialist Party won the

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Speaker 3: most number of votes and will probably be able to

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Speaker 3: lead the coalition government. But something very concerning also happened,

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Speaker 3: which is that for the first time there's an ultra

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Speaker 3: right party that has emerged in Spain, and twenty three

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Speaker 3: or twenty four representatives in the Congress are now going

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Speaker 3: to come from an ultra right, ultra nationalist, anti immigrant,

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Speaker 3: anti abortion, anti women's rights party.

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Speaker 1: I'm Mudena and Robert. Thank you so much for your

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Speaker 1: work and thank you so much for joining us on

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Speaker 1: Latino USA.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having us.

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Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Miguel Marzias. It was edited

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Speaker 1: by Marlon Bishop. It was mixed by Julia Caruso with

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Speaker 1: engineering support from Jjkrubin. The Latino USA team also includes

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Speaker 1: Jessica Ellis, Victoria Strada, Renaldo Leanoz Junior, Stephanie Lebou, Andrea

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Speaker 1: Lopez Cruzado, Luis Luna, Glodi mad Marquez, Martin Martinez, Nor Saudi,

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Speaker 1: and Nancy Trujillo. Pile Ramidez is our co executive producer.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host and also co executive producer. Join us

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Speaker 1: again on our next episode. In the meantime, look for

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Speaker 1: us on all of your social media. That's where I'll

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Speaker 1: see you, not Te bayas Baye.

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Speaker 5: Latino USA is made possible in part by Skyline Foundation,

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Speaker 5: the John D. And Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, and the

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Speaker 5: Ford Foundation, working with visionaries on the front lines of

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Speaker 5: social change worldwide.

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Speaker 1: Perestan Locos, Burquees Madrid, Viamen de Las and pis La.

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Speaker 1: Of course, boy, they're crazy to be doing an interviewed. Okay,

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Speaker 1: here we go. Ready,