WEBVTT - How The Rosenhan Experiment Worked 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.280 Heart Radio. Hey, I'm welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:16.040 and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, capetch ng. And that 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:18.760 makes this a normal episode of Stuff you should Know. 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:25.480 That's right, the continuing bucket of Josh's obsession with psychology 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:30.240 and psychiatry. It's so interesting. I know, I love it. 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:32.400 These always come from you, and they're always interesting, So 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:36.479 let's do it. So we're talking today specifically about a 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:42.920 particular study, a very famous psychology study. UM. And the 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:45.360 whole thing is kind of rooted in context that you 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:47.879 have to know, which is that UM. There was a 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:54.040 time up until about the fifties when psychiatrists were considered 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:59.680 like unquestionable, no matter how weird or brutal or potentially 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:03.560 lie taking their methods were. If it was if it 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:06.600 was a psychiatrist saying this is needed for mental health, 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:11.320 then society just went along with it, right. But then 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:13.280 at some point in time there was kind of this 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.920 backlash against that because people started questioning, like, are you 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:19.119 sure you guys know what you're talking about? And if 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:22.959 you don't, UM, what you're doing is even more horrific 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.399 than we thought before. And I was trying to think 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:27.360 of a good analogy, Chuck, and the best I could 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:30.080 come up with is, let's say you gave a group 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:36.560 of church officials free, free reign to hunt witches, tortures 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:43.720 suspected witches, violently exercised demons from from um people who 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:49.520 are possessed, and then society figured out that not that 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:53.440 those things don't exist, but that in this case, the 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:58.880 church officials themselves don't exist. Right, So, in this case, 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:03.440 mental illness does exist, but the witch hunters don't aren't 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.760 actually real, their methods don't mean anything. They're completely made up. 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.760 And that was the crisis of confidence that psychiatry was 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:12.680 going through in the middle of the twentieth century. People 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:16.000 started doubting that it had any kind of veracity whatsoever, 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:19.400 and that they were just torturing mentally ill people to 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:22.320 try to figure it out as they went along. Yeah, 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.120 and I'm not going to get on some anti medication, 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:29.800 anti psychiatry soapbox, but I will say this, and you 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:32.320 know this about what's been going on in my private life. 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:36.919 But I have seen a very sad situation of someone 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:38.920 I love dearly in my own life over the past 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:44.840 few years deteriorate. Because while conditions in like let's just 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.280 call them asylums what they call them back then, have 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:51.440 certainly improved, Uh, there's still a lot of lines that 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:57.000 can be drawn to doctors forgetting when it comes to 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.239 mental illness, forgetting there as a human sitting there in 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:05.280 front of them, uh, when medication is being thrown at them. 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.320 And again the medication can be great, not going on 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:13.520 some big tirade against uh uh antipsychotic meds and things 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.000 like that. But I've just seen it happen up close 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:19.280 and impersonal, and it is a it is still a 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.880 very broken system in many ways, and it's really really sad. Yeah, 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.560 And what you just mentioned is it's a longstanding kind 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:29.120 of tack that psychiatry has taken, which is they're battling 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.960 the disease and the patient is just kind of an 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.760 unfortunate casualty of that battle sometimes, you know what I mean. 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:40.320 And so finally people stood up and said like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:43.320 we need to like rethink this psychiatry. Like you guys 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:48.640 are giving people lobotomies, You're throwing powerful um like psychotropic 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:51.280 medications at people that can rob them of their will. 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.920 Um and rob them of their personalities, like we need 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:58.440 to rethink this, And something called the anti psychiatry movement 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.640 started to develop, um, both in the general public and 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:05.400 amongst some psychiatrists and psychologists themselves, and in the Church 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:10.000 of scientology. Yes, scientologists hate this stuff, um, but they 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.320 really are kind of vehemently opposed to the entire idea, 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:16.640 it seems like, whereas this was more like the anti 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:20.920 psychiatry movement, especially within the profession, was like, Okay, our 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:24.320 goals are noble. What we're trying to do is worthwhile. 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:27.000 We just don't know what we're talking about yet, and 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:30.080 we need to figure out a better strategy. Yeah, And 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:32.279 as we'll see, certain things like if you listen to 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:36.520 our episode on Titticut Follies, things like that popped up 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.320 here and there throughout history to make people really pump 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:40.920 the brakes and go, wait a minute, how how are 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:44.520 we treating people with mental illness in this country? Like? 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:49.279 What the heck is going on? So there was a 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:54.159 a person named R. D. Lange who was um didn't 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:56.760 like to be like fully put in the box of 0:04:56.800 --> 0:05:01.760 like anti psychiatry, but was certainly criticized and questioning the 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.479 fact that Hey, Um, we're observing these behaviors. It's a 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:09.720 behavioral things that we're witnessing, and we're treating them biologically, 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:13.440 and like, there's there's something missing here. There's a piece 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:18.360 that's missing. And R. D. Lange was giving a lecture 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:22.080 one time that was seen by a gentleman that we're 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:26.080 talking about today, David Rosenhand, who was a psychologist and 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.359 rosen Han. I guess it. You know it touched a 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:30.560 nerve with rosen Han or is it Rosenhand? You know 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:35.240 I've always said hand, Okay, Rosenhand, that's what we'll go with. 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.760 We definitely won't switch back and forth Overard. No, well, 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:44.239 we definitely won't say I'm both in secession. But Rosenhand said, Hey, 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:48.600 this lecture spoke to me. Um, tagging someone is mentally 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:54.640 ill quote unquote mentally ill is does humans a disservice 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:57.280 because that's a tag that they live with, not only 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.800 in the eyes of others, but to themselves, and it 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:03.640 can calls real damage. Um, and some of these people 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:05.760 aren't mentally ill. So we need to really take a 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:08.200 look at this. And I have some ideas on how 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.600 to tackle it. Yeah, and we should say in this episode, 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:14.320 we're going to use the word sane and insane a lot, 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:18.440 and nowadays you would call that healthy or mentally ill 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:21.080 um And the reason we're kind of using it like 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.360 that's number one, that's the terms they used back then. 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.400 But also it's different. It was a different understanding that 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:30.200 back then that there there wasn't gradiations of mental wellness. 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.560 There was you were sane or else you were insane. 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:36.080 And once you were insane or labeled insane, you had 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.800 that label for life. You were in remission, but you 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:42.919 still had that that label of you know, that you 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:45.480 carried around for the rest of your life. Yeah, that's 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.200 a good point. I'm glad you made that. Actually. Uh so. 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:52.880 Rosen Han also at some point previous to this, underwent 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:58.719 a experimental eight day in patient uh you know, and 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.240 this was rosen and wasn't like a Rosenhand there I go. 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:05.279 Wasn't saying, oh, I'm not feeling well, I'm gonna try this. 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:08.000 Rosenhand said all right, I'm completely saying I'm gonna check 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:10.960 myself in for eight days as an impatient and see 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:14.440 what happened. Because I want to maybe convince some of 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.760 my students to do this. After he did it, he 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:20.320 was like, well, that was intense. I definitely am not 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:22.680 going to ask my students to do this. What I'm 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:26.640 gonna do is design and experiment where we can have 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:28.840 non students do this and then I can tell them 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:32.320 what happened. Right, And the basis of it was just 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:37.480 one kind of very central question, right, right. So Um 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:41.480 Rosine haine Um decided that he was going to design 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.840 an experiment using those two experiences, and he wanted to 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:49.640 see if psychiatrists could do the most basic part of 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.760 their job, which is identify the difference between a sane 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:57.160 person and an insane person. Yeah, and this, it really 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:01.240 did make me wonder if he was influenced at all 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:05.240 by One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. I don't know. 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:07.640 I saw that he started this in nineteen sixty nine. 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.560 When was that book published sixty two or sixty three. 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:13.280 It's entirely possible and was the stage play, and the 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:16.760 whole basis of One Flew with the Cuckoo's Nest was, Uh, 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:18.720 if you haven't seen the movie or read the book, 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.440 which is the both great Uh, it was it was 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:23.520 a gentleman who was always in trouble with the law 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:26.760 who basically saw a way around going to prison, and 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:30.560 that was, um, let me try and convince them I'm 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:35.320 insane and we'll be put in a cushy mental institution instead. 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.080 So the whole basis of that, it's a little different. 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:42.800 But was put a sane person in an insane asylum? 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:45.840 Again words they use back then, Uh, and let's see 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:49.520 if I can fool them. Yeah. And that was written 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.880 by Ken Kesey, who figures big time into the electric 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:55.480 kool aid ASCID test. And he was actually on the 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:59.440 ward of a state psychiatric facility in either Oregon or 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:03.839 Washington and and he like witnessed this stuff and ended 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:06.080 up writing a book. And he was as we'll see, 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:09.200 along with rosen Han man, Chuck, why did you do 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:13.360 that to me? Along with rosen Hand and a bunch 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.920 of other people along the years, he helped contribute to 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:21.560 opening society's eyes to the ills of institutionalizing the mentally 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:25.000 ill and how they were treated. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, So 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:27.240 rosen Han gets in there, I'm gonna say on looks 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.400 like Conomy go ahead and says, all right, here's what 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:32.520 I'll do. And this is all in the in the 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.640 sort of pre study like planning part. I'm gonna call 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:39.280 these people's pseudo patients. I'm gonna gather together people who 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.600 are what I would call perfectly saying, they've never had 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:45.920 any history of mental illness. They would go to a 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:50.439 psychiatric hospital and they would say, hey, I'm hearing voices. Uh. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:51.880 If it was a man, they would say, I'm hearing 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:53.840 a man's voice. It was a woman, they would hear 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.280 a woman's voice, and it's sort of unclear what they're saying, 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:01.400 but I'm hearing the words uh, empty or thud or 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:04.959 hollow um, And I figured I should talk to someone 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.600 about it and let's see what happens. Yeah. And so 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.520 later people who came and have studied and analyzed this 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:18.160 um believed that rosenhan Was was trying to simulate existential symptoms, 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:22.480 possibly in existential psychosis, that where somebody has some serious 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.080 concerns about the meaning of existence all of a sudden 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:28.520 they're really concerned that they don't mean anything, that there's 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:30.760 no purpose to life, and that he was trying to 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:33.360 kind of come up with that using those words. The 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:37.760 thing is, after they presented themselves at the psychiatric facility 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.480 and they gave this false initial complaint. They were also 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:44.280 required to give a false name. They were also required 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:46.439 to give a false occupation because a lot of these 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:50.320 pseudo patients were actually psychologists and psychiatrists themselves, and that 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.800 would have raised red flags for sure. But also he 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.199 was worried that they would have gotten special treatment. It 0:10:56.240 --> 0:11:00.680 would have altered the outcome of the data were collecting. 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.760 But other than that, other than those three things, the 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:07.920 deception ended there. They were supposed to behave exactly like 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:13.360 they normally would uh as themselves from from that point on. Yeah, 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:16.720 So like when they did interviews and stuff, whether it 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.040 was intake or just as they went, although we'll see 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:21.800 that didn't happen a lot. As they went. Uh, they 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:24.760 were to describe their lives as they were, uh, their 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:29.480 personalities as they were, their relationships, their medical history. Everything 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:33.160 was just straight up and on the straight and narrow. Um. 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.400 This is very key. They did not take the medications. Uh. 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:38.280 They would, you know, do the old trick where you 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:42.520 hide them, uh misery style and then uh and then 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.640 put them like under your mattress or something, or I 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:49.920 guess plush them down the toilet. Um. And they were uh. 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:55.520 And of course rosen hand is saying that, uh, it's 0:11:55.600 --> 0:12:00.520 very natural how it happens. It's funny. Rosen And was saying, like, hey, anything, 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:04.200 this thing is biased in the favor of these institutions, 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:09.120 because like this is the very barest thing that they 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.920 should be able to tell if someone is sane or insane, 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:16.120 and these are completely sane people, so they should really 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.360 be recognized as frauds. Like this shouldn't be too hard 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.120 for them. Yeah, I mean, like, if you're presented with 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:27.240 somebody who has a perfectly normal, perfectly healthy life background history, um, 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:29.440 like yeah, you should be able to recognize him as saint. 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:31.440 So that was the premise of the whole thing. He 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:33.719 also said that they while they were in there, if 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.920 they were accepted into the facility, they were to become 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.880 quote paragons of cooperation. That if they were given an 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.160 instruction from somebody on the staff, they were supposed to 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.040 happily comply and follow it. Um, they were supposed to 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:48.200 just kind of go along and get along, not cause 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.400 any waves or any trouble. And that he noticed that 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:54.280 there's like a built in mechanism to kind of support 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.440 people from to to be uh cooperative, and that is 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:03.719 that they presented themselves as psychiatric patients without anyone in 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:07.120 these hospitals being informed that they were there, So they 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.600 had no idea when they were going to get out. 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.000 They needed to be on their best behavior and seem 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:17.079 as seen as possible so that they could eventually get out. Yeah, 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.360 and this is where it really differs from Cuckoo's Nest 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:24.760 because the main character there, McMurtry, was not cooperative at all, 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.920 and that you know that led to the tragic ending. 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:33.360 But man, yeah, what a movie. What a book. I've 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:35.520 never read the book is that as as good as 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:37.360 the movie is. It one of those rare things where 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.640 the movies even better than they're both great. It's it's 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:45.640 like a great book, great movie. Yeah, really good stuff. Um. So, 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:47.720 the other thing he had in his or claim to 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:49.360 have in his hip pocket you can put a pin in. 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:53.920 This is a writ of habeas corpus for each patient 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:57.000 in case. Uh. They just were like I gotta get 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.840 out of here, and the hospitals like, sorry, it doesn't 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.720 work that way. Habeas rid of habeas corpus has to 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:07.040 do with reporting unlawful detentions, and so rosen And said, 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:09.559 I've got these on hand in case anybody has to 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.240 get out. Um. And I think he presented it to 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.839 the pseudo patients that way too, right. Yeah, so don't 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.160 worry like if it if it really, if push comes 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.200 to shove, I can get you out of there through 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:24.520 the courts basically. So um. And it is really important 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:27.680 to know when you're voluntarily checking yourself into a mental 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:32.680 facility for the purposes of a deceptive study, right, um. 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.240 And one of the things that Rosenhand needed for this 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:38.200 study was for pseudo patients to take copious notes and 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:42.680 observe everything um shot down, interactions, shot down, how they 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:46.120 were treated, how other patients were treated, um, just basically 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.120 everything they could document they were supposed to document, and 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.080 Rosenhand was initially really worried that this is going to 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.440 kind of show the pseudo patients hands. So they needed 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.800 to take these notes secretly, and the pseudo patients figured 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:03.120 out very quickly. No one at the psychiatric facility who 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:06.000 worked there could have cared less that they were taking 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:09.120 notes the entire time, and in fact, they actually, in 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:13.080 at least one case, attributed it to their um their 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:18.280 psychological condition. Yeah, I mean this, um, I think it 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:21.600 speaks to some of the results that we'll find, which 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:23.920 was there a lot of time, was not a lot 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:28.160 of active participation from staff to patient. So they're like, 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.760 I don't care, he's writing big whoop, right there was 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.240 There was a note in one of their files patient 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:37.320 engages in writing behavior, but that was it. They didn't 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.920 think it was weird. They didn't think that whatever happened, 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:43.440 those patients just took notes on everything. They were insane 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:45.680 and so of course an insane person is going to 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:48.080 do that. And so the pseudo patients were able to 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.360 just take notes out in the open the entire time 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.600 during their stays. I think when you write engages in 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:57.000 and tech behavior on the end, you can make anything 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:02.120 like Josh and Chuck exhibited pie casting behavior right exactly 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:06.200 when all of a sudden, someone's coming after us. All right, 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:12.120 so the study is now designed. Um, he starts, Uh, 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:17.040 he's collected these pseudo patients, these volunteers, I guess, and uh, 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:19.880 he wants to collect data in the end. Um, we 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.840 should note that he did throw out the data from 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:27.560 one participant because they, I think, kept making stuff up 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:29.880 while they were in there and didn't didn't go with 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.800 the reality of their life. Um. And then another and 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:36.680 I have no idea why this person's data wasn't excluded. 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:41.400 But another person tried, and this is very McMurtry esque. 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:45.520 Although he hated Nurse Ratchet, but he tried to uh 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:49.240 to woo a nurse on the premises. Uh said that 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:54.840 he was a psychologist, and UH actually provided psychotherapy to 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:59.120 some other patients there. Yeah. I suspect that they didn't 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:03.040 throw that data out because it was Rosenhan himself. Oh, 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:08.160 that would be my guest. My data is still good. 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.479 I didn't think of that because he was one of 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.320 the eight pseudo patients at all who went to twelve 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:17.680 different places in this study. Very interesting. I think it's 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:19.959 a great place for a break. Ye. All right, I'm 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:44.920 gonna ponder that whole scene. Uh, and we'll be right back. Alright. 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.320 So it's nineteen it's funny. It was published in Science 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:50.719 in nineteen seventy three. But I didn't see I couldn't 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.160 find anywhere when this happened. When did it actually happen? 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.840 I saw seventy two. It's weird. I looked in a 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.720 bunch of places and it all just dived right into 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.000 the thing without saying what ear it was? Yeah, I 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:04.200 said I noticed that too. I found it in one place. 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:09.000 All right, So seventy two The Summers of Love and 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:12.440 eventually published in Science, which, of course we've talked about 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:14.560 it a lot. It's one of, um, if not the 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:18.239 most prestigious academic journal in US history. So it's not 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.560 like it was published in Popular Mechanics or something like that. Hey, 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:25.480 Popular Mechanics is pretty great, or BuzzFeed. Sorry, let's say 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:29.919 Highlights Children. Oh, I love Highlights, which is the one 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:33.879 I was on the cover of, like like Catholic Boy's 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:43.119 Life or something Catholic nuns like Expelled. It was spelled 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:48.240 n O N E apostrophees. Uh so where were we? 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:50.280 All right? It's nineteen seventy three. It's published in the 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:54.080 journal Science. Uh. It was called on Being Sane and 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:58.640 Insane Places. And it's a really great read. You sent 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.560 me in the original article. It's awesome. You can still 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:03.440 find it and read it. It's a really good read 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.760 because it doesn't take the form of a regular scientific 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.280 academic journal. UM doesn't have a lot of data, not 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.760 a lot of statistics, UM, not a lot of a 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:18.640 lot of things UM methodology, like results. It's just sort 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:24.600 of written out like this kind of uh challenge essay, which, 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:26.399 as we'll see, ended up. You know, therere being a 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:28.320 lot of problems with it, but it makes for a 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:31.159 much better read than most things in science. Yeah. He 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.960 starts a lot of paragraphs with oh here's another thing, 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:38.720 right Yeah. So, Um, like I said, Rosenhan was one 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:42.000 of the eight pseudo patients. There were eight and all, um, 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:46.520 five of them were men, the other three were women. Um, 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.640 and five of the eight were somehow engaged in psychology 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.439 or psychiatry plus him, are including him? Do you know? 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:55.280 I think I think including him? Yeah, I think he's 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.119 included all of those. And um. He sent them to 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:01.560 twelve different facilities in five different states on the East 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:05.160 coast and West coast. Um, and they were all different kinds. 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.879 He specifically tried to make his sample representative of the 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:13.600 kind of facilities that you would find throughout the United States. Yeah. Um, 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:17.480 one of them was a private hospital eleven where state run. Um, 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.200 so not the biggest division there, but they did run 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:26.560 the gamut from older kind of rundown places to newer places. Uh. 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:30.840 Some places had um really good ratios of patient staff, 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:34.000 some my really crutty ones uh and not nearly enough 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:38.520 staff uh, somewhere research based and oriented, somewhere not at all. 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:41.720 So it seems at least that he had a pretty 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:47.800 decent representation, right he so Um again, in the design 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:50.080 of his study, he has set it up to make 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:53.760 it as easy as possible for anyone in these psychiatric 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:58.200 facilities staffs to notice that, you know, this person is 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:00.520 actually not mentally ill at all. They're giving us all 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:03.720 this information that's contrary to that. So he he, like 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:06.960 he said before, Um, he biased it in favor of 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:10.240 the psychiatric staff finding out that these people were saying. 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.000 And he said that there were some things that he 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:16.639 considered and then dismissed about why they may have been admitted, 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:18.639 because we haven't said it yet, but all eight were 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:22.479 admitted in all twelve instances, Um. And one of the 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.879 reasons he considers they were possibly that possibly affected the 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:28.840 diagnosis and their mission admission was that they were nervous, 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.080 like the site of the pseudo patients were nervous about 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:33.560 being found out they were They were nervous they were 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:35.840 going to be embarrassed or shamed or maybe get into 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:38.840 some sort of trouble Um. And so he said that 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:42.320 might have contributed a little bit, but probably no, not 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:45.680 enough to be admitted into a psychiatric facility. So he 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:48.320 he kind of dismisses that thought. But what he says 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:50.640 is that they were all really surprised at how easily 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:53.560 they were admitted. Yeah. I mean, I think in the 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:56.600 late nineties sixties, when you show up say you're hearing 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:59.360 voices in your head, they believe you and they say, 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:04.240 all right, you're, uh schizophrenic, and welcome to the facility. Uh, 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:08.320 here's your here's your outfit, and here's your room, and uh, 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:11.720 here's your pills. And that's basically what happened. I think 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:16.520 they were all save one, diagnosed with schizophrenia UM. The 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:21.200 one was at the private run Interestingly institution, and they 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:25.320 were diagnosed as what would now be bipolar disorder. Back 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:29.280 then they called it manic depressive psychosis. But they were 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:32.840 all ushered in basically with open arms. Yeah. And I 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:35.200 saw and I think a big Think article on this 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:38.919 UM study. They pointed out that, like this is the 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:41.240 opposite of what it's like when you try to get 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:45.720 mental health treatment today. It's really hard, it's really expensive. 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:48.080 You don't just show up and they let you in 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:50.600 and here's your gown and here's your pills kind of thing. 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:53.200 So it's kind of interesting in that respect as well. 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:57.159 But then once these pseudo patients were in the ward again, 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:01.199 they have diagnoses of schizophrenia. Now, um, there wasn't a 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:04.639 single instance where any of their behavior was questioned by 0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:09.040 the staff, are considered suspicious, and um he got he 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:12.119 obtained most of the reports from these visits and in 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:15.639 the files, there's no questioning or suspicion whatsoever about the 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:19.120 pseudo patients at all. No, I mean they would uh 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:21.840 the reports were really good, and that all the people 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:26.359 were like model patients and cooperating and friendly and engaging 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:28.840 and like. These things were noted, but no one ever 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.040 said like, uh, and we'll see you know some of them, Well, 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:33.560 we'll get to that point. Because I think that's one 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:36.360 of the more remarkable parts of it is how they 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:40.080 noted that. But what they didn't note was like, you 0:23:40.119 --> 0:23:42.720 know what, this person doesn't seem like there's anything going 0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:46.160 on with them at all. Uh. It was just sort 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:49.040 of accepted, like they're here, so this is what is 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:52.240 going on with them. It's really interesting. But that was 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:55.960 the staff, right, What about the other patients of the facility. Yeah, 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:59.240 this I think is super fascinating. They were the only 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:01.679 ones that were into it. The other patients they were 0:24:01.800 --> 0:24:04.119 basically were like, you're not one of us, and I 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:08.000 and we can tell um and I trying to remember 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:13.119 in Cuckoo's Nest, I think he basically told everyone right away, 0:24:13.160 --> 0:24:16.040 like the other patients like I don't belong here, um, 0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:17.960 and he kind of became the de facto leader. But 0:24:18.480 --> 0:24:23.320 at uh these places with rosen Han, they've they basically said, hey, 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:26.159 we don't think you're real. We think you're either a 0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:30.840 journalist um, trying to expose the facility, or maybe you're 0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:33.919 you work for the facility and you're you know, in 0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:38.480 there as a mole kind of checking on things. Yeah exactly, 0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:40.879 but either way, we don't believe you. And it seems 0:24:40.880 --> 0:24:44.040 like in most cases they were uh. And I love 0:24:44.080 --> 0:24:47.159 that you actually put sniffed off the case and because 0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:49.520 you put this together, But they were sniffed off the 0:24:49.520 --> 0:24:53.560 case generally by just being reassured by the pseudo patients 0:24:53.600 --> 0:24:56.600 that no, I'm just feeling better, That's why I'm acting 0:24:56.640 --> 0:25:00.239 this way, right. Can't you just see Mr Martini saying, like, 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:05.040 I know you're checking up on the hospital. So there's 0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:07.160 the thing that Rosenhand points out, and he just kind 0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:10.399 of brushes past it, but it's kind of important. He 0:25:10.440 --> 0:25:13.760 says that while the other patients you know, found them 0:25:13.800 --> 0:25:18.080 out immediately, um, none of the pseudo patients were closely 0:25:18.119 --> 0:25:22.600 examined by the psychiatric staff, by the actual psychiatrists. They 0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:25.879 had plenty of interaction with the nurses, the order lads, 0:25:26.200 --> 0:25:29.040 you know, the people who interact with the patient's day today. 0:25:29.080 --> 0:25:32.520 But none of them, in all twelve instances, all twelve visits, 0:25:32.840 --> 0:25:36.600 none of them were closely examined by a psychiatrist. And 0:25:36.680 --> 0:25:39.600 you can imagine that an inmate or a patient at 0:25:39.640 --> 0:25:42.840 one of these facilities is going to have the opportunity 0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:45.359 to really closely pay attention to you and interact with 0:25:45.400 --> 0:25:47.560 you and see your behavior. So it might have been 0:25:47.600 --> 0:25:50.440 easier for them just because they interacted with them more. 0:25:50.960 --> 0:25:54.159 But he defends this, you know, potential flaw in his 0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:58.600 design and saying like, these hospitals had plenty of opportunity 0:25:58.680 --> 0:26:02.280 to closely examine pseudo patients and they didn't. So whether 0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:04.760 that was the reason they didn't find them out or not, 0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:08.440 it was still a huge failing of the psychiatric system 0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:11.080 and their process, and that they didn't even closely examine 0:26:11.080 --> 0:26:13.639 these people to see that, oh no, actually these people 0:26:13.680 --> 0:26:16.920 are faking. Yeah. And not to harp on Cuckoo's Nest, 0:26:16.960 --> 0:26:19.399 but it was written, you know, as a as a 0:26:19.440 --> 0:26:22.359 real thing that Kesy did, and it was that's what 0:26:22.440 --> 0:26:25.639 happened in that book. He you had this initial meeting 0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:30.359 with a psychiatrist where they diagnosed him, and then it's like, 0:26:30.400 --> 0:26:32.640 all right, this is where you live now, and these 0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:34.479 are the orderlies and these are the nurses, and this 0:26:34.560 --> 0:26:37.879 is your life. There was no regular check ins to 0:26:37.920 --> 0:26:40.720 see if anybody was getting better, and that was the 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:42.680 whole point of this experiment, and in a lot of 0:26:42.720 --> 0:26:46.120 ways was like it wasn't being done right. These people 0:26:46.119 --> 0:26:49.280 were just being sent to live away because they were 0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:51.560 a hassle for their family. They were being sent to 0:26:51.600 --> 0:26:54.720 live somewhere else now, right. So one of the other 0:26:54.800 --> 0:26:57.359 themes of Um one flew over the Cuckoo's Nest is that, 0:26:57.760 --> 0:27:01.520 you know, Jack Nicholson is kind of slowly driven crazy, 0:27:01.600 --> 0:27:04.919 I guess you could say, from being institutionalized. It was 0:27:04.960 --> 0:27:08.159 one of the main themes um and Rosenhan Actually I 0:27:08.160 --> 0:27:10.480 don't maybe he did read that book because he accounted 0:27:10.520 --> 0:27:13.280 for this. Um. He didn't report it I think in 0:27:13.359 --> 0:27:16.679 the study, but um in a memoir that was found 0:27:16.720 --> 0:27:21.040 after he died. Uh. He apparently had people visit, you know, 0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:24.560 friends visit the patients during their stay, and then would 0:27:24.560 --> 0:27:27.440 interview the friends to see if they noticed any actual 0:27:27.560 --> 0:27:30.520 change in the pseudo patients, and that none of them did. 0:27:30.520 --> 0:27:35.000 There was no major, you know, noticeable effect of institutionalization 0:27:35.240 --> 0:27:39.120 that could have accounted for people you know, mistaking them 0:27:39.160 --> 0:27:42.400 as as um, you know, having schizophrenia or something. Yeah. 0:27:42.440 --> 0:27:45.760 And this was over the course. What was the average stay? 0:27:45.800 --> 0:27:50.080 How many weeks? I think nineteen days, almost three weeks 0:27:50.080 --> 0:27:52.639 for the average. Yeah. So it's it's long enough to 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:55.000 where someone could have said to a visitor like, hey, 0:27:55.040 --> 0:27:58.040 this place is really wearing on me, starting to lose 0:27:58.080 --> 0:28:02.280 it a little bit. Uh, And apparently that didn't happen. Um. 0:28:02.320 --> 0:28:05.280 This is the part that I think really fascinated me 0:28:05.480 --> 0:28:10.919 was that, Uh, the more saying they were, which was 0:28:10.960 --> 0:28:15.159 to say, uh, saying appearing um, the more that was 0:28:15.359 --> 0:28:20.440 looked at as a symptom of schizophrenia. So they would 0:28:20.480 --> 0:28:25.600 act completely normal, be super friendly, um and very cooperative 0:28:26.080 --> 0:28:28.880 and sort of like the writing behavior thing. When they 0:28:28.880 --> 0:28:32.800 looked at these notes, they would indicate this cooperation or 0:28:33.119 --> 0:28:36.679 just good sense sometimes to do things as part of 0:28:36.680 --> 0:28:39.240 their problem. Um, and we'll go over a few a 0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:42.840 few of them. It's it's shocking. Um. There was one 0:28:42.880 --> 0:28:45.200 that lined up early for meals because I guess they 0:28:45.200 --> 0:28:46.520 were smart enough to know, like, hey, I get at 0:28:46.560 --> 0:28:48.840 the front of the line, I get whatever more food 0:28:48.960 --> 0:28:51.480 or the best food, you know, the best chicken breasts. 0:28:51.520 --> 0:28:53.920 I don't know. I saw, well, I saw it explained, 0:28:54.000 --> 0:28:57.080 is there's not a lot else to do or anticipation reward, 0:28:57.440 --> 0:29:00.000 so like that's that's something to look forward to. Yeah, 0:29:00.200 --> 0:29:03.320 so they noted that as as an example of oral 0:29:03.640 --> 0:29:08.600 acquisitive psychotic behavior instead of just like being hungry and bored. 0:29:09.160 --> 0:29:12.240 Right exactly. That was that was a big recurring theme 0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:16.520 throughout right. Yeah. This next one was really kind of funny. Um, 0:29:16.560 --> 0:29:20.160 this one pseudo patient was talking about their marriage in 0:29:20.200 --> 0:29:22.640 their home life and they said, he, you know, my 0:29:22.640 --> 0:29:24.400 my life is pretty good. My wife and I get along. 0:29:24.400 --> 0:29:28.120 We have occasional arguments. Um, very rarely. I spanked my kids, 0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:30.680 which was you know, something you did back then. So 0:29:30.760 --> 0:29:35.960 in that context, it was quote unquote normal family life. Uh. 0:29:36.000 --> 0:29:39.520 And they said that his attempts to control emotionality with 0:29:39.560 --> 0:29:42.680 his wife and children are punctuated by angry outbursts and 0:29:42.720 --> 0:29:47.480 in the case of UH, in the case of the children, spankings. 0:29:48.080 --> 0:29:52.640 Instead of just saying in in marriage, they exhibited behaviors 0:29:52.640 --> 0:29:57.280 of being married, which is to say, occasionally arguing and 0:29:57.320 --> 0:29:59.520 again in those days, like I was spanked when I 0:29:59.520 --> 0:30:03.080 was a kid, we expect, yes I was, and now 0:30:03.120 --> 0:30:07.480 it's my choice. Good for you. What was the other one? 0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:10.280 What was the uh? Oh? So that same guy who 0:30:10.400 --> 0:30:14.600 was trying to control emotionality with his wife. Um, they 0:30:14.640 --> 0:30:17.880 said that. So during his interview and take interview, he 0:30:17.920 --> 0:30:19.800 said that when he was a kid, he'd been close 0:30:19.880 --> 0:30:22.000 to his mom but kind of distant from his father, 0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:24.320 and then as he became an adult, he actually became 0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:26.920 close friends with his father and just not quite as 0:30:26.960 --> 0:30:32.440 close with his mom. Right, that turned into um, a 0:30:32.480 --> 0:30:38.640 considerable ambivalence and close relationships, and that his effective stability 0:30:38.800 --> 0:30:42.959 is absent, meaning he's emotionally unstable. Yeah, that's what they 0:30:43.000 --> 0:30:45.880 gathered from that. You know, my brothers and sisters and me, 0:30:46.080 --> 0:30:47.920 we really fought a lot when we were young. But 0:30:48.160 --> 0:30:51.160 now that we're adults, we all get along really well. Right, 0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:57.400 right exactly, that is psychotic. So the rosenhand goes to um, 0:30:57.680 --> 0:30:59.600 he goes, he stops and points out, like this is 0:30:59.640 --> 0:31:02.959 a kind of a major section in the study. He's saying, like, 0:31:03.040 --> 0:31:06.080 this is the context of the hospital setting. This environment 0:31:06.120 --> 0:31:10.200 shapes people's perceptions. And he was saying that the people's 0:31:10.320 --> 0:31:14.840 very sane, very normal personal histories didn't affect the diagnosis 0:31:14.840 --> 0:31:19.720 of schizophrenia. The diagnosis of schizophrenia altered everyone else's perception 0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:23.800 of their very sane and very normal personal histories. Yeah, 0:31:23.920 --> 0:31:27.400 and what really struck me was the Uh, and this 0:31:27.480 --> 0:31:29.080 is something I think you could, like I said, you 0:31:29.080 --> 0:31:31.680 can still see today in some cases, is the de 0:31:31.840 --> 0:31:36.800 personalization that happened. Uh, it was kind of constant. It 0:31:36.840 --> 0:31:41.040 seems like these patients were generally ignored. Um, this is 0:31:41.560 --> 0:31:44.120 he Like I said, there wasn't a ton of raw data, 0:31:44.200 --> 0:31:46.680 but there was a little bit, And one of them 0:31:46.800 --> 0:31:52.040 was that they were close to fifteen hundred patient initiated 0:31:52.360 --> 0:31:58.120 contacts with the staff, like four hundred and sixty eight times. Uh. 0:31:58.160 --> 0:32:01.120 The eight pseudo patients went up and in aged the 0:32:01.160 --> 0:32:04.800 staff somehow, for some reason. And apparently less than three 0:32:04.840 --> 0:32:09.160 percent of those resulted in actual verbal engagement back to them. 0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:11.840 So that tells me that they would just say something 0:32:11.880 --> 0:32:15.720 to them and be ignored at the time, right, Yeah, 0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:17.920 they would be ignored. They were powerless because they were 0:32:17.920 --> 0:32:22.240 stripped of rights, they were mistreated, sometimes violently by the staff. 0:32:22.440 --> 0:32:24.760 They were just treated like they weren't there, and they 0:32:24.800 --> 0:32:27.959 came to kind of question their self worth just as 0:32:28.000 --> 0:32:31.920 a part of the institutionalization process. Um. And that was 0:32:31.960 --> 0:32:34.520 a big, big point um from this study and one 0:32:34.600 --> 0:32:37.960 of the lasting effects that had was pointing this out. Um. 0:32:38.040 --> 0:32:40.320 And like you said, I think the average length of 0:32:40.400 --> 0:32:44.320 stay was nineteen days, The shortest stay was seven days, 0:32:44.680 --> 0:32:49.040 the longest stay was fifty two days. Someone was digging it. 0:32:49.640 --> 0:32:53.560 And in eleven out of twelve of these visits, the patients, 0:32:53.600 --> 0:32:57.360 the pseudo patients were diagnosed with schizophrenia when they left, 0:32:57.360 --> 0:32:59.880 when they were determined to be able to return to society, 0:33:00.320 --> 0:33:05.160 they weren't labeled sane or cured or mentally healthy. They 0:33:05.160 --> 0:33:08.800 were labeled as having schizophrenia in remission. And that is 0:33:08.840 --> 0:33:12.320 what Rosenhand was talking about, that once you're labeled insane 0:33:12.320 --> 0:33:15.080 in our society, especially in the middle of the twentieth century. 0:33:15.320 --> 0:33:18.000 You were insane for the rest of your life. It's 0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:23.720 just you might not be actively insane at the moment. Yeah. Absolutely, 0:33:24.480 --> 0:33:28.280 So I say we take a break because, uh, we 0:33:28.360 --> 0:33:30.160 got a pretty good twist in the story coming up, 0:33:31.040 --> 0:33:33.520 and then we'll finish up about how this whole experiment 0:33:33.600 --> 0:33:58.400 is viewed these days right after this, Okay, chuck sie, 0:33:58.440 --> 0:34:01.520 So there's an extra twist coming. Um, Rosenhand is just 0:34:01.560 --> 0:34:04.000 showing off at this point. He's running circles around the 0:34:04.000 --> 0:34:08.040 field of psychiatry, juggling bowling pins that are on fire 0:34:08.120 --> 0:34:12.319 for fun, right. Sure. Apparently somehow this word of the 0:34:12.320 --> 0:34:16.520 study got out before the publication of the study, and 0:34:16.800 --> 0:34:20.320 some hospital challenged Rosenhand. They said this could not possibly 0:34:20.320 --> 0:34:23.200 happen at our hospital. So he actually worked with a 0:34:23.320 --> 0:34:27.400 research hospital, um and said, Okay, the staff was informed 0:34:27.560 --> 0:34:30.080 that over the next three months, one or more pseudo 0:34:30.120 --> 0:34:33.319 patients was going to be admitted, and they had the 0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:36.640 staff rate the patients that were admitted over those three 0:34:36.640 --> 0:34:38.919 months to see if they could figure out which one 0:34:39.080 --> 0:34:44.359 was actually faking game on. That's right. Uh So of 0:34:44.400 --> 0:34:47.640 the one dred and ninety three patients that were admitted 0:34:47.640 --> 0:34:51.080 to this hospital over a three month period, um, there 0:34:51.080 --> 0:34:54.279 were forty one that were sniffed off the case as 0:34:54.280 --> 0:34:58.960 pseudo patients by at least one person on the nerving staffing. 0:35:00.680 --> 0:35:05.399 You know, they were nervous. It's the funnest staff. Uh. 0:35:05.520 --> 0:35:09.000 Twenty three. Uh, we're sniffed off the case by at 0:35:09.080 --> 0:35:13.480 least one psychiatrists, and nineteen of them were suspected by 0:35:13.600 --> 0:35:16.640 at least a psychiatrist and at least one of the 0:35:16.680 --> 0:35:21.160 people on the nursing staff so uh, by at least 0:35:21.200 --> 0:35:25.200 one of the other Uh. Forty fifty sixty four of 0:35:25.239 --> 0:35:30.719 them were suspected as being pseudo patients. And how many 0:35:30.800 --> 0:35:36.239 pseudo patients did rosen Hans send their way? Zero? Not 0:35:36.520 --> 0:35:40.600 fair trick question. He's like Wallace Shawn and the Prince's 0:35:40.640 --> 0:35:43.200 bride all of a sudden, that's right. So yeah, he 0:35:43.239 --> 0:35:45.799 didn't deploy any pseudo patients to the hospital and just 0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:49.319 basically let them chase shadows to prove that not only 0:35:49.680 --> 0:35:53.560 could they not detect false negatives, they couldn't detect false 0:35:53.560 --> 0:35:58.160 positives correctly either. So in psychology they call false positives 0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:01.319 and false negatives type one and type two errors. And 0:36:01.400 --> 0:36:05.200 he was basically showing like psychiatry is full of judging 0:36:05.280 --> 0:36:08.520 type one and type two errors. Yeah. I wonder if 0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:12.480 there was one person on the staff that was trying 0:36:12.480 --> 0:36:15.120 to talk everyone into like he's not sending any I 0:36:15.200 --> 0:36:17.759 know it. I know this guy is just messing with us. 0:36:18.719 --> 0:36:21.000 They locked that guy up and gave him powerful anti 0:36:21.040 --> 0:36:25.359 psychotic medication. Yeah. So again, I'm sure he was very 0:36:25.360 --> 0:36:30.560 pleased with himself after this challenge. Uh. And this is 0:36:30.600 --> 0:36:33.879 at a time and you know I mentioned Titticut Follies earlier. Uh, 0:36:33.880 --> 0:36:37.520 this is also a time when there was a, um, 0:36:37.600 --> 0:36:39.600 you know, a lot of sort of inside looks at 0:36:39.640 --> 0:36:42.279 what was going on in these hospitals. Thankfully because so 0:36:42.320 --> 0:36:45.520 many of them were exposed in the early seventies. Geraldo 0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:48.520 Rivera Uh kind of one of the first ways he 0:36:48.560 --> 0:36:51.120 made a name for himself was, uh, the work he 0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:55.680 did exposing the Willowbrook States School for the developmentally Disabled 0:36:55.960 --> 0:37:00.360 on State in Island. Um. Uh, Titticut Follies. Frederick Reisman 0:37:01.120 --> 0:37:03.960 um did the same thing in the late sixties, and 0:37:04.000 --> 0:37:07.120 I think even in the eighteen hundreds, a journalist named 0:37:07.080 --> 0:37:09.560 Nellie Blye did sort of the same thing, going undercover 0:37:10.320 --> 0:37:13.040 to write a book called Ten Days in a Madhouse. 0:37:13.440 --> 0:37:16.879 And then of course Kenkisi, Yeah, there's ken Kizi. Two 0:37:16.920 --> 0:37:20.000 there was a life magazine spread from n called I 0:37:20.000 --> 0:37:23.400 Think Bedlam forty. And all of these things like really 0:37:23.440 --> 0:37:27.280 shocked the conscience of society over and over and over again, 0:37:27.320 --> 0:37:31.839 and so together, including this wave of anti psychiatry, um, 0:37:31.920 --> 0:37:35.040 Rosenhand's experiment with all these other things helped kind of 0:37:35.080 --> 0:37:40.160 shape public perception and turn it against if not psychiatry itself, 0:37:40.480 --> 0:37:46.880 certainly the large state run um depersonalizing institutions that people 0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:51.040 were typically placed in when they suffered from mental illness. Yeah, 0:37:51.080 --> 0:37:53.239 and you shouldn't be surprised to learn that John F. 0:37:53.320 --> 0:37:58.279 Kennedy was the first president to really kind of try 0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:02.520 and tackle this in a substantive way, um, because you know, 0:38:02.600 --> 0:38:06.000 he very famously had mental illness in his family. They 0:38:06.040 --> 0:38:09.799 had a lobotomy in his family, right, yeah, Rosemary. And 0:38:09.840 --> 0:38:13.319 so he got on it and said, let's put it 0:38:13.400 --> 0:38:17.799 into the guise of the federal government and get it 0:38:17.840 --> 0:38:21.080 out of the hands of the state. That was more fat, 0:38:21.200 --> 0:38:24.440 that was more fat tony than jfk oh mayor Quimby. 0:38:24.480 --> 0:38:29.040 Come on, um, I know we're all frightened in Horney 0:38:29.680 --> 0:38:32.520 one of the greatest lines ever on the citizens totally 0:38:33.040 --> 0:38:35.359 uh yeah. So he said, let's let's put it under 0:38:35.400 --> 0:38:38.600 the hands of the federal government. The state run facilities 0:38:38.640 --> 0:38:43.560 are ignored and underfunded, and it's a it's a an 0:38:43.719 --> 0:38:47.200 S show in there. He coined that term to uh. So, 0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:50.160 he signed the Community Mental Health Act in nineteen sixty three, 0:38:50.880 --> 0:38:55.120 but that was underfunded, and that was also an S show. Yeah. So, 0:38:55.120 --> 0:38:58.520 so the responsibility for treating the mentally ill went from 0:38:58.560 --> 0:39:00.799 the States to the Feds, but and the Feds never 0:39:01.160 --> 0:39:05.080 funded that bill. So the treatment of the mentally ill 0:39:05.160 --> 0:39:08.680 and who is responsible was basically in limbo for almost 0:39:08.760 --> 0:39:12.439 twenty years um. And then Reagan came along and said, 0:39:12.440 --> 0:39:14.839 how about this. We'll just push it back to the 0:39:14.880 --> 0:39:16.680 states and we'll give them a little bit of funding, 0:39:16.680 --> 0:39:20.640 but not enough. And over the years, the kind of 0:39:21.160 --> 0:39:27.720 ping ponging between institutions and community based treatment, states responsibility 0:39:27.760 --> 0:39:31.240 and federal responsibility, all these state run beds were closing 0:39:31.280 --> 0:39:33.680 and closing, and there are fewer and fewer of them, 0:39:33.760 --> 0:39:35.719 and so we end up where we are today, which 0:39:35.760 --> 0:39:39.440 is a mixture of community based treatment, state run hospitals, 0:39:39.480 --> 0:39:42.439 they're definitely still there. And then private treatment and all 0:39:42.440 --> 0:39:44.839 of them put together is just not enough. That's why 0:39:44.880 --> 0:39:48.080 it's so hard and so expensive to get treatment for 0:39:48.760 --> 0:39:52.480 mental health issues today in the United States. Yeah, and 0:39:52.719 --> 0:39:54.960 although you can't say this is the only reason, that's 0:39:54.960 --> 0:39:57.680 one of the reason why so many people, sadly in 0:39:57.680 --> 0:40:02.880 this country are unhoused today, including you know, veterans, military 0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:07.080 veterans of the United States. And it's just reprehensible the 0:40:07.120 --> 0:40:10.719 blind dive that has been taken over the years. In 0:40:10.800 --> 0:40:14.360 the nineteen thirties, there was something called the Penrose hypothesis, 0:40:15.360 --> 0:40:20.440 which basically lays most of the blame on UH imprisonment 0:40:20.760 --> 0:40:24.560 of the mentally ill and the unhoused population that's mentally 0:40:24.640 --> 0:40:29.319 ill uh squarely the feet of D institute D instante. 0:40:31.680 --> 0:40:34.480 I can do this. You can't sound it out. D 0:40:34.840 --> 0:40:39.239 institutionalization hooked down fun It's worked for you, man. That 0:40:39.360 --> 0:40:40.880 is a when you look at that, that's a lot 0:40:40.920 --> 0:40:44.280 of letters it is. It's it's a real bone head word. 0:40:44.320 --> 0:40:46.920 I just gave myself a pat on the back. You 0:40:46.960 --> 0:40:49.120 should you deserve it here you say it right now quick, 0:40:49.600 --> 0:40:56.800 D institutionalization. You show off you've been practicing for once. Anyway, 0:40:56.800 --> 0:40:59.160 it doesn't that doesn't mean anything. Anyone who listens to 0:40:59.200 --> 0:41:02.120 the podcast is that me practicing has zero effect on 0:41:02.200 --> 0:41:05.759 my pronunciation? Is true? Uh So the Penrose hypothesis lays 0:41:05.800 --> 0:41:09.879 the blame squarely on that uh word that you just said. 0:41:09.920 --> 0:41:13.400 That's very long and impressive, and you know their statistics 0:41:13.480 --> 0:41:17.200 that helped back that up. Um. I think from eighteen 0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:21.880 eighty to two thousand five, the percentage of people with 0:41:21.920 --> 0:41:27.120 mental illness in prison rose from less than one percent. Yeah, 0:41:27.560 --> 0:41:30.680 and what else about the unhoused. There's a study from 0:41:30.680 --> 0:41:33.520 the mid nineties that found that the population of the 0:41:33.600 --> 0:41:36.640 unhoused in the United States was a hundred thousand and 0:41:36.760 --> 0:41:40.239 nineteen eighty and then in it was up to four 0:41:40.320 --> 0:41:45.400 hundred thousand. Again, that is spans the entire um administration 0:41:45.440 --> 0:41:48.560 of Ronald Reagan, and a lot of people lay this 0:41:49.040 --> 0:41:51.160 at his feet. And again it's not that clear cut. 0:41:51.160 --> 0:41:54.239 The Penrose hypothesis is not cut and dried. But those 0:41:54.280 --> 0:41:57.799 are some pretty startling statistics. And the idea that if 0:41:57.840 --> 0:42:01.000 you shut down giant state run insto tuitions and you 0:42:01.040 --> 0:42:04.800 don't have enough treatment facilities elsewhere, what's going to happen 0:42:04.840 --> 0:42:06.680 to those people? And it seems like a lot of 0:42:06.680 --> 0:42:09.719 them end up on the streets or in prison, and 0:42:09.840 --> 0:42:12.640 that's what America does with It's a large part of 0:42:12.680 --> 0:42:16.680 its mentally ill population today, especially ones that are people 0:42:16.719 --> 0:42:21.000 of color and other minorities. To absolutely. Um. As far 0:42:21.040 --> 0:42:26.279 as Rosenhan's experiment today, how it's viewed, it's, um, why 0:42:26.320 --> 0:42:29.839 is that funny? Anytime you say rosen Han, now, I'm 0:42:29.880 --> 0:42:34.200 just gonna crack up. Um, it's it's a little bit 0:42:34.239 --> 0:42:39.080 of a Stanford prison experiment view of it, which is, um, Hey, 0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:42.319 this was interesting. We learned some things, but it was 0:42:42.440 --> 0:42:47.280 not rigorous scientifically. There was no randomization, there was no control, 0:42:47.719 --> 0:42:51.640 there was no sampling or blinding. Um, you didn't report 0:42:51.719 --> 0:42:55.520 how you train these participants. A lot of people have 0:42:55.600 --> 0:42:59.239 disregarded it, like you know, people that are well respected 0:42:59.239 --> 0:43:02.040 in the in the commune, in any psychiatric community and 0:43:02.080 --> 0:43:09.680 psychological community. Is nonsense and bunk um and just heavily criticized. Uh. 0:43:09.719 --> 0:43:11.600 This one quote is I think pretty interesting. As a 0:43:11.600 --> 0:43:18.120 neuroscientist named Seymour Ketty that uh said, this is explanation 0:43:18.480 --> 0:43:20.000 if I were to drink a cord of blood and 0:43:20.040 --> 0:43:22.600 concealing what I had done, come to the emergency room 0:43:22.680 --> 0:43:25.800 of any hospital and vomited blood. That behavior of the 0:43:25.840 --> 0:43:28.520 staff would be quite predictable. Uh, they would label and 0:43:28.520 --> 0:43:31.440 treat me as having a bleeding peptic ulcer. And I 0:43:31.520 --> 0:43:34.680 doubt that I could argue convincingly that medical science doesn't 0:43:34.680 --> 0:43:37.880 know how to diagnose that condition. This is taking a 0:43:37.960 --> 0:43:40.440 little far in a different direction, I think, but I 0:43:40.760 --> 0:43:43.040 get the point. I saw it put a little more 0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:45.880 succinctly by a writer in psychology today who said, the 0:43:45.880 --> 0:43:48.480 only thing the studies showed was that it is possible 0:43:48.520 --> 0:43:52.600 to deceive doctors by lying to them. So the study 0:43:52.640 --> 0:43:55.000 does have as detractors if you don't share your data 0:43:55.719 --> 0:43:59.440 like or your methodology like, it's not a scientific paper 0:43:59.480 --> 0:44:03.879 at bait. But rosen Hands experiment has survived all these 0:44:03.960 --> 0:44:07.120 years because even as detractors say, well, it did a 0:44:07.160 --> 0:44:10.440 really good job of raising the issue of powerlessness and 0:44:10.560 --> 0:44:14.600 deep personalization in institutions, and that, in and of itself 0:44:14.640 --> 0:44:17.600 meat makes it a worthwhile study or paper at least 0:44:17.920 --> 0:44:21.000 for essay. I think it's super interesting and really interesting 0:44:21.040 --> 0:44:23.200 to read, and I think I agree. I think it 0:44:23.200 --> 0:44:25.600 did expose a lot of things, But I don't think 0:44:25.640 --> 0:44:28.400 you could, like point to it as proof of anything 0:44:28.440 --> 0:44:32.200 necessarily except that the system was pretty messed up. Yeah, 0:44:32.200 --> 0:44:34.000 and the system is still messed up. I mean that's 0:44:34.200 --> 0:44:37.240 that that initial thing that already Lang hit on, that 0:44:37.239 --> 0:44:42.239 that psychiatry treats behaviors it observes with biological medicine is 0:44:42.280 --> 0:44:44.200 still a problem. There's a guy who used to be 0:44:44.320 --> 0:44:47.640 the head of the National Institute of Mental Health, Thomas Insel, 0:44:48.040 --> 0:44:51.040 and he said, unlike our definitions of ischemic heart disease, 0:44:51.320 --> 0:44:54.640 lymphoma or AIDS, the D s M diagnoses are based 0:44:54.640 --> 0:44:57.919 on a consensus about clusters of clinical symptoms, not any 0:44:57.960 --> 0:45:01.600 objective laboratory measure. So psychiatry still finds itself in the 0:45:01.680 --> 0:45:04.120 same place as ever, and it's now having to fend 0:45:04.200 --> 0:45:07.600 off kind of um a turf four that's been started 0:45:07.600 --> 0:45:10.480 by neuroscientists whore like all this stuff is brain based, 0:45:10.520 --> 0:45:12.400 and we're the ones who can look into the brain. 0:45:12.680 --> 0:45:15.160 We need to be taking over this stuff, and psychiatrists 0:45:15.160 --> 0:45:18.880 are like nine in the in the tradition of Freud. Uh. 0:45:18.920 --> 0:45:22.799 And also, by the way, if people listening, uh, you 0:45:22.920 --> 0:45:27.480 said r D the initials r D laying not already laying. 0:45:27.520 --> 0:45:30.880 If you're wondering what Howard Sterns one time sidekick comedian 0:45:30.920 --> 0:45:32.520 already Lying had to do with any of this? Didn't 0:45:32.520 --> 0:45:35.000 he hang out with Norm McDonald a lot too. Yeah, 0:45:35.080 --> 0:45:38.839 I think they were pals, like already Lang. He had 0:45:38.880 --> 0:45:40.520 some bad troubles for a while. I think he's doing 0:45:40.560 --> 0:45:44.800 better now. Yeah. R I p Norm McDonald too. Yeah. 0:45:44.880 --> 0:45:47.640 So as far as Rosenhan himself, there was a book 0:45:47.680 --> 0:45:50.840 a few years ago and twenty nine team from Susannah 0:45:51.040 --> 0:45:56.359 Cahalan unless you misspelled Callahan, No, I really wish I had, 0:45:56.440 --> 0:45:59.440 because that's a tough one. It's probably Kahalan. Uh. It 0:45:59.480 --> 0:46:02.920 was called The Great Pretender, And Susannah was not very 0:46:03.440 --> 0:46:07.279 kind to rosen Han and basically said, this guy is 0:46:07.360 --> 0:46:10.680 kind of a fraud, Like I found instances where Uh, 0:46:10.880 --> 0:46:12.560 first of all, he didn't have that rid of habeas 0:46:12.600 --> 0:46:15.719 corpus man. He said he did and told them he did, 0:46:15.719 --> 0:46:21.520 which is really not cool. Um Uh what else, Well, 0:46:21.560 --> 0:46:23.320 some of the data, some of the numbers that he 0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:26.040 put out there don't match. Like she tracked one guy down, 0:46:26.040 --> 0:46:28.920 Bill Underwood, who was a pseudo patient, and that particular 0:46:28.920 --> 0:46:31.880 pseudo patient supposedly spent seven days in a hospital at 0:46:31.920 --> 0:46:34.680 eight thousand patients. He actually spent eight days in a 0:46:34.719 --> 0:46:39.120 hospital of fift patients, which matters if Rosenhand was saying, no, 0:46:39.239 --> 0:46:42.280 I'm really kind of getting a random sampler, good sampling 0:46:42.600 --> 0:46:45.759 of hospitals in America, big ones and small ones, etcetera. 0:46:45.880 --> 0:46:48.080 If he didn't have an eight thousand patient hospital and 0:46:48.760 --> 0:46:51.400 d was the tops, maybe that wasn't as random as 0:46:51.440 --> 0:46:55.480 you'd think. Yeah, And she also, uh, didn't quite but 0:46:55.640 --> 0:46:57.880 came close to accusing him of flat out making up 0:46:57.920 --> 0:47:00.560 about half the people. Um, I don't know this is 0:47:00.600 --> 0:47:07.200 because she only found three plus him uh and said, well, 0:47:07.360 --> 0:47:08.960 maybe he made up the rest or was there like 0:47:09.040 --> 0:47:11.239 actual evidence that he may have just made up the 0:47:11.280 --> 0:47:14.880 rest the former But she took out a an ad 0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:18.000 basically as an editorial in the Lancet, which is a British, 0:47:18.080 --> 0:47:21.960 very respective British medical journal, um saying like, hey, I'm 0:47:22.000 --> 0:47:24.960 looking for the other pseudo patients and got nothing, not 0:47:25.040 --> 0:47:27.799 a single bite, not not a lead or anything. So 0:47:27.840 --> 0:47:33.080 she wonders if actually they didn't exist. Interesting. Yeah, And 0:47:33.160 --> 0:47:35.560 so the thing is, though it doesn't really matter, Like 0:47:36.040 --> 0:47:37.920 even if he did make up half the data and 0:47:37.960 --> 0:47:40.560 half the pseudo patients, it doesn't matter because this study 0:47:40.640 --> 0:47:43.600 isn't based on the data. It's all about the fact 0:47:43.600 --> 0:47:46.200 that it kind of shone this light on the way, 0:47:46.360 --> 0:47:49.400 you know, people are treated and how the mentally ill 0:47:49.440 --> 0:47:52.920 were treated in the United States at that time. You 0:47:52.960 --> 0:47:55.840 got anything else, no good stuff? Nice work, thanks me, 0:47:56.160 --> 0:47:59.960 Nice work you. If you want to know more about Rosenhand, 0:48:00.239 --> 0:48:04.120 rosen Han, whoever, um, you can look up this article 0:48:04.719 --> 0:48:08.760 on being sane and insane places all over the Internet 0:48:08.840 --> 0:48:11.440 and I think you'll enjoy it tremendously. And since I 0:48:11.480 --> 0:48:16.520 said that it's time for listener mail listener mail, I'm 0:48:16.520 --> 0:48:18.799 gonna call this a couple of quick things on our 0:48:18.960 --> 0:48:23.040 Mediacci episode. I'm not gonna read this full email, but 0:48:23.080 --> 0:48:25.800 I did want to point this band out because listen 0:48:25.840 --> 0:48:29.440 to it and they're awesome. This is from J Deptman 0:48:30.320 --> 0:48:34.520 sent in this band MARRYATCHI l bronx Uh and they 0:48:34.520 --> 0:48:37.600 were originally a punk band from l A And apparently 0:48:37.640 --> 0:48:42.400 they did an acoustic set for a TV show and 0:48:42.760 --> 0:48:46.920 they played it with a mariachi style just because it 0:48:47.000 --> 0:48:48.880 had that energy and then they were like, hey, this 0:48:48.960 --> 0:48:51.680 is awesome and that's kind of what they're known for now. 0:48:51.719 --> 0:48:53.840 And I played some of it and it's really awesome. 0:48:54.480 --> 0:48:56.800 And these guys, a lot of them are Caucasian and 0:48:56.840 --> 0:48:59.680 they wear those outfits and they look awesome. Awesome. See. 0:49:01.440 --> 0:49:06.880 But the real email I'm gonna read is uh from 0:49:06.920 --> 0:49:11.480 Marlena Maynard. She her hers, who is a voice teacher, 0:49:11.600 --> 0:49:15.920 So I imagine Marlena from Nashville knows what she's talking about. Hey, guys, 0:49:15.960 --> 0:49:18.160 just listen to the episode about Mariaci music. I love 0:49:18.160 --> 0:49:20.600 how you highlighted issues of class and race in the 0:49:20.680 --> 0:49:23.839 musical and academic world. I'm a classical singer and vocal coach, 0:49:23.880 --> 0:49:26.759 and as a professional in the field, we certainly have 0:49:26.800 --> 0:49:29.400 a long way to go in terms of equity and diversity. 0:49:30.080 --> 0:49:32.360 But Chuck, you mentioned that you love hearing many voices 0:49:32.400 --> 0:49:34.960 singing harmony. You weren't sure if five part harmony is 0:49:35.000 --> 0:49:38.279 a thing. Oh, I have great news, which is that 0:49:38.360 --> 0:49:41.239 there isn't really an upper limit at all. Five part 0:49:41.239 --> 0:49:43.800 harmony is fairly common in choral music. If the composer 0:49:43.840 --> 0:49:45.439 wants to fill out a chord, they can simply write 0:49:45.440 --> 0:49:48.000 another note and the members of that section will know 0:49:48.040 --> 0:49:51.719 how to divide accordingly. You also will encounter a lot 0:49:51.719 --> 0:49:54.160 of pieces for eight voices i e. A double choir 0:49:54.640 --> 0:49:57.640 or two soprano parts to alto, to tenor and to 0:49:57.880 --> 0:50:00.800 bass parts. Uh, and then gives an example which I 0:50:00.840 --> 0:50:04.520 think people should check out. It's called the piece with 0:50:04.600 --> 0:50:07.200 most parts. With the most parts that I'm aware of 0:50:07.320 --> 0:50:13.120 is spem in ali Um by Thomas Talise Is from 0:50:13.120 --> 0:50:18.799 the early sixteenth century. It's got forty vocal parts. Uh. 0:50:18.920 --> 0:50:21.560 So just go look that up s P E M 0:50:22.040 --> 0:50:25.719 I N A l I U M on YouTube. And 0:50:25.760 --> 0:50:29.800 then there's a couple of more um and also lists 0:50:30.239 --> 0:50:34.200 of bachuin um. And this is Marlena's favorite five part 0:50:34.760 --> 0:50:40.600 choral pieces, the second movement of Yezo Mina Freida by J. S. Bach. 0:50:41.320 --> 0:50:43.520 Very nice, So go check all those out. Check out 0:50:43.840 --> 0:50:46.920 Mariachi l Bronx. You've got a great Tiny Desk concert, 0:50:46.920 --> 0:50:49.719 among other things. Those are always fun to watch. Do 0:50:49.760 --> 0:50:53.000 you ever see those? Yeah? I saw one when we 0:50:53.040 --> 0:50:56.600 did the Mariotti and the Flora. I can't remember the 0:50:57.120 --> 0:51:01.319 all all women um four piece Mariott band from New York. Yeah, 0:51:01.400 --> 0:51:04.200 that's off the NPR. The Tiny Desk concert is long 0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:07.000 been one of my favorite things. So Chuck. Since we're 0:51:07.000 --> 0:51:09.040 talking music, though, I want to just go ahead and 0:51:09.080 --> 0:51:12.239 give a shout out an announcement. You could say, are 0:51:12.280 --> 0:51:14.880 you ready for this? Did your niece write an album? 0:51:15.400 --> 0:51:19.920 Not yet, she's working on it. Um. Instead, you asked 0:51:19.960 --> 0:51:22.400 for it and they're giving it to you. On November 0:51:22.440 --> 0:51:29.520 twenty second, Diarrhea Planet is reuniting in Nashville. What's this 0:51:29.560 --> 0:51:33.400 because of us? I probably I'm just gonna I assume 0:51:33.400 --> 0:51:35.279 everything is because of us. No, I don't think it is, 0:51:35.320 --> 0:51:37.520 but I want to go to that show. I bet 0:51:37.560 --> 0:51:39.080 you that place is going to go off because they 0:51:39.080 --> 0:51:41.480 haven't played together in three or four years now. They 0:51:41.640 --> 0:51:43.520 broke up in two thousand eighteen. So they're going to 0:51:43.560 --> 0:51:47.040 be at the Exit Inn in Nashville November twenty seconde 0:51:47.120 --> 0:51:49.400 if you want to make a pilgrimage there. You know, 0:51:49.600 --> 0:51:52.680 I'm looking at my calendar when it that's it's a 0:51:52.719 --> 0:51:57.520 bad time a year Diarrhea Planet right at Thanksgiving, right 0:51:57.560 --> 0:52:00.920 around my wife's birthday. But I've been in more trouble 0:52:01.040 --> 0:52:04.840 in my marriage, so Nashville's pretty close. I'm going to 0:52:04.880 --> 0:52:07.320 the see Stevie Nicks. Really, I'm going to see Diaria 0:52:07.320 --> 0:52:12.719 Planet there. Emily's like, you skip my birthday to see who? Yeah? 0:52:12.840 --> 0:52:18.680 Fantom Planet with Jason Swartzman oh Man so Chuck who 0:52:18.760 --> 0:52:22.200 was the the original the two people who wrote in 0:52:22.480 --> 0:52:25.520 Marlena is the vocal coach and Jay turned me onto 0:52:25.600 --> 0:52:28.839 Mariachi l Bronx. That's right, Thanks Marlena and Ja. If 0:52:28.840 --> 0:52:30.839 you want to point out some cool music we've never 0:52:30.880 --> 0:52:33.319 heard before, we love that kind of thing. You can 0:52:33.360 --> 0:52:36.360 send us an email to stuff podcast at iHeart radio 0:52:36.440 --> 0:52:41.440 dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of 0:52:41.480 --> 0:52:44.759 I heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit 0:52:44.840 --> 0:52:47.919 the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 0:52:48.000 --> 0:52:48.960 to your favorite shows.