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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, I'm welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh,

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Speaker 1: and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, capetch ng. And that

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Speaker 1: makes this a normal episode of Stuff you should Know.

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Speaker 1: That's right, the continuing bucket of Josh's obsession with psychology

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Speaker 1: and psychiatry. It's so interesting. I know, I love it.

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Speaker 1: These always come from you, and they're always interesting, So

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Speaker 1: let's do it. So we're talking today specifically about a

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Speaker 1: particular study, a very famous psychology study. UM. And the

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Speaker 1: whole thing is kind of rooted in context that you

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Speaker 1: have to know, which is that UM. There was a

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Speaker 1: time up until about the fifties when psychiatrists were considered

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Speaker 1: like unquestionable, no matter how weird or brutal or potentially

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Speaker 1: lie taking their methods were. If it was if it

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Speaker 1: was a psychiatrist saying this is needed for mental health,

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Speaker 1: then society just went along with it, right. But then

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Speaker 1: at some point in time there was kind of this

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Speaker 1: backlash against that because people started questioning, like, are you

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Speaker 1: sure you guys know what you're talking about? And if

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Speaker 1: you don't, UM, what you're doing is even more horrific

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Speaker 1: than we thought before. And I was trying to think

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Speaker 1: of a good analogy, Chuck, and the best I could

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Speaker 1: come up with is, let's say you gave a group

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Speaker 1: of church officials free, free reign to hunt witches, tortures

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Speaker 1: suspected witches, violently exercised demons from from um people who

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Speaker 1: are possessed, and then society figured out that not that

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Speaker 1: those things don't exist, but that in this case, the

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Speaker 1: church officials themselves don't exist. Right, So, in this case,

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Speaker 1: mental illness does exist, but the witch hunters don't aren't

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Speaker 1: actually real, their methods don't mean anything. They're completely made up.

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Speaker 1: And that was the crisis of confidence that psychiatry was

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Speaker 1: going through in the middle of the twentieth century. People

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Speaker 1: started doubting that it had any kind of veracity whatsoever,

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Speaker 1: and that they were just torturing mentally ill people to

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Speaker 1: try to figure it out as they went along. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not going to get on some anti medication,

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Speaker 1: anti psychiatry soapbox, but I will say this, and you

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Speaker 1: know this about what's been going on in my private life.

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Speaker 1: But I have seen a very sad situation of someone

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Speaker 1: I love dearly in my own life over the past

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Speaker 1: few years deteriorate. Because while conditions in like let's just

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Speaker 1: call them asylums what they call them back then, have

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Speaker 1: certainly improved, Uh, there's still a lot of lines that

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Speaker 1: can be drawn to doctors forgetting when it comes to

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Speaker 1: mental illness, forgetting there as a human sitting there in

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Speaker 1: front of them, uh, when medication is being thrown at them.

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Speaker 1: And again the medication can be great, not going on

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Speaker 1: some big tirade against uh uh antipsychotic meds and things

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Speaker 1: like that. But I've just seen it happen up close

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Speaker 1: and impersonal, and it is a it is still a

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Speaker 1: very broken system in many ways, and it's really really sad. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And what you just mentioned is it's a longstanding kind

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Speaker 1: of tack that psychiatry has taken, which is they're battling

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Speaker 1: the disease and the patient is just kind of an

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Speaker 1: unfortunate casualty of that battle sometimes, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: And so finally people stood up and said like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: we need to like rethink this psychiatry. Like you guys

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Speaker 1: are giving people lobotomies, You're throwing powerful um like psychotropic

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Speaker 1: medications at people that can rob them of their will.

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Speaker 1: Um and rob them of their personalities, like we need

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Speaker 1: to rethink this, And something called the anti psychiatry movement

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Speaker 1: started to develop, um, both in the general public and

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Speaker 1: amongst some psychiatrists and psychologists themselves, and in the Church

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Speaker 1: of scientology. Yes, scientologists hate this stuff, um, but they

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Speaker 1: really are kind of vehemently opposed to the entire idea,

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Speaker 1: it seems like, whereas this was more like the anti

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Speaker 1: psychiatry movement, especially within the profession, was like, Okay, our

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Speaker 1: goals are noble. What we're trying to do is worthwhile.

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Speaker 1: We just don't know what we're talking about yet, and

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Speaker 1: we need to figure out a better strategy. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: as we'll see, certain things like if you listen to

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Speaker 1: our episode on Titticut Follies, things like that popped up

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Speaker 1: here and there throughout history to make people really pump

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Speaker 1: the brakes and go, wait a minute, how how are

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Speaker 1: we treating people with mental illness in this country? Like?

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Speaker 1: What the heck is going on? So there was a

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Speaker 1: a person named R. D. Lange who was um didn't

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Speaker 1: like to be like fully put in the box of

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Speaker 1: like anti psychiatry, but was certainly criticized and questioning the

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Speaker 1: fact that Hey, Um, we're observing these behaviors. It's a

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Speaker 1: behavioral things that we're witnessing, and we're treating them biologically,

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Speaker 1: and like, there's there's something missing here. There's a piece

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Speaker 1: that's missing. And R. D. Lange was giving a lecture

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Speaker 1: one time that was seen by a gentleman that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about today, David Rosenhand, who was a psychologist and

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Speaker 1: rosen Han. I guess it. You know it touched a

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Speaker 1: nerve with rosen Han or is it Rosenhand? You know

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Speaker 1: I've always said hand, Okay, Rosenhand, that's what we'll go with.

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Speaker 1: We definitely won't switch back and forth Overard. No, well,

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Speaker 1: we definitely won't say I'm both in secession. But Rosenhand said, Hey,

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Speaker 1: this lecture spoke to me. Um, tagging someone is mentally

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Speaker 1: ill quote unquote mentally ill is does humans a disservice

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Speaker 1: because that's a tag that they live with, not only

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Speaker 1: in the eyes of others, but to themselves, and it

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Speaker 1: can calls real damage. Um, and some of these people

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Speaker 1: aren't mentally ill. So we need to really take a

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Speaker 1: look at this. And I have some ideas on how

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Speaker 1: to tackle it. Yeah, and we should say in this episode,

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Speaker 1: we're going to use the word sane and insane a lot,

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Speaker 1: and nowadays you would call that healthy or mentally ill

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Speaker 1: um And the reason we're kind of using it like

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Speaker 1: that's number one, that's the terms they used back then.

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Speaker 1: But also it's different. It was a different understanding that

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Speaker 1: back then that there there wasn't gradiations of mental wellness.

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Speaker 1: There was you were sane or else you were insane.

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Speaker 1: And once you were insane or labeled insane, you had

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Speaker 1: that label for life. You were in remission, but you

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Speaker 1: still had that that label of you know, that you

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Speaker 1: carried around for the rest of your life. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: a good point. I'm glad you made that. Actually. Uh so.

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Speaker 1: Rosen Han also at some point previous to this, underwent

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Speaker 1: a experimental eight day in patient uh you know, and

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Speaker 1: this was rosen and wasn't like a Rosenhand there I go.

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Speaker 1: Wasn't saying, oh, I'm not feeling well, I'm gonna try this.

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Speaker 1: Rosenhand said all right, I'm completely saying I'm gonna check

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Speaker 1: myself in for eight days as an impatient and see

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Speaker 1: what happened. Because I want to maybe convince some of

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Speaker 1: my students to do this. After he did it, he

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Speaker 1: was like, well, that was intense. I definitely am not

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Speaker 1: going to ask my students to do this. What I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna do is design and experiment where we can have

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Speaker 1: non students do this and then I can tell them

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Speaker 1: what happened. Right, And the basis of it was just

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Speaker 1: one kind of very central question, right, right. So Um

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Speaker 1: Rosine haine Um decided that he was going to design

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Speaker 1: an experiment using those two experiences, and he wanted to

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Speaker 1: see if psychiatrists could do the most basic part of

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Speaker 1: their job, which is identify the difference between a sane

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Speaker 1: person and an insane person. Yeah, and this, it really

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Speaker 1: did make me wonder if he was influenced at all

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Speaker 1: by One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I saw that he started this in nineteen sixty nine.

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Speaker 1: When was that book published sixty two or sixty three.

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Speaker 1: It's entirely possible and was the stage play, and the

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Speaker 1: whole basis of One Flew with the Cuckoo's Nest was, Uh,

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Speaker 1: if you haven't seen the movie or read the book,

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Speaker 1: which is the both great Uh, it was it was

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Speaker 1: a gentleman who was always in trouble with the law

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Speaker 1: who basically saw a way around going to prison, and

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Speaker 1: that was, um, let me try and convince them I'm

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Speaker 1: insane and we'll be put in a cushy mental institution instead.

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Speaker 1: So the whole basis of that, it's a little different.

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Speaker 1: But was put a sane person in an insane asylum?

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Speaker 1: Again words they use back then, Uh, and let's see

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Speaker 1: if I can fool them. Yeah. And that was written

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Speaker 1: by Ken Kesey, who figures big time into the electric

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Speaker 1: kool aid ASCID test. And he was actually on the

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Speaker 1: ward of a state psychiatric facility in either Oregon or

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Speaker 1: Washington and and he like witnessed this stuff and ended

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Speaker 1: up writing a book. And he was as we'll see,

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Speaker 1: along with rosen Han man, Chuck, why did you do

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Speaker 1: that to me? Along with rosen Hand and a bunch

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Speaker 1: of other people along the years, he helped contribute to

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Speaker 1: opening society's eyes to the ills of institutionalizing the mentally

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Speaker 1: ill and how they were treated. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, So

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Speaker 1: rosen Han gets in there, I'm gonna say on looks

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Speaker 1: like Conomy go ahead and says, all right, here's what

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Speaker 1: I'll do. And this is all in the in the

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Speaker 1: sort of pre study like planning part. I'm gonna call

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Speaker 1: these people's pseudo patients. I'm gonna gather together people who

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Speaker 1: are what I would call perfectly saying, they've never had

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Speaker 1: any history of mental illness. They would go to a

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Speaker 1: psychiatric hospital and they would say, hey, I'm hearing voices. Uh.

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Speaker 1: If it was a man, they would say, I'm hearing

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Speaker 1: a man's voice. It was a woman, they would hear

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Speaker 1: a woman's voice, and it's sort of unclear what they're saying,

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Speaker 1: but I'm hearing the words uh, empty or thud or

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Speaker 1: hollow um, And I figured I should talk to someone

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Speaker 1: about it and let's see what happens. Yeah. And so

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Speaker 1: later people who came and have studied and analyzed this

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Speaker 1: um believed that rosenhan Was was trying to simulate existential symptoms,

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Speaker 1: possibly in existential psychosis, that where somebody has some serious

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Speaker 1: concerns about the meaning of existence all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: they're really concerned that they don't mean anything, that there's

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Speaker 1: no purpose to life, and that he was trying to

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Speaker 1: kind of come up with that using those words. The

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Speaker 1: thing is, after they presented themselves at the psychiatric facility

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Speaker 1: and they gave this false initial complaint. They were also

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Speaker 1: required to give a false name. They were also required

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Speaker 1: to give a false occupation because a lot of these

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Speaker 1: pseudo patients were actually psychologists and psychiatrists themselves, and that

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Speaker 1: would have raised red flags for sure. But also he

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Speaker 1: was worried that they would have gotten special treatment. It

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Speaker 1: would have altered the outcome of the data were collecting.

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Speaker 1: But other than that, other than those three things, the

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Speaker 1: deception ended there. They were supposed to behave exactly like

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Speaker 1: they normally would uh as themselves from from that point on. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So like when they did interviews and stuff, whether it

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Speaker 1: was intake or just as they went, although we'll see

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Speaker 1: that didn't happen a lot. As they went. Uh, they

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Speaker 1: were to describe their lives as they were, uh, their

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Speaker 1: personalities as they were, their relationships, their medical history. Everything

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Speaker 1: was just straight up and on the straight and narrow. Um.

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Speaker 1: This is very key. They did not take the medications. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They would, you know, do the old trick where you

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Speaker 1: hide them, uh misery style and then uh and then

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Speaker 1: put them like under your mattress or something, or I

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Speaker 1: guess plush them down the toilet. Um. And they were uh.

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Speaker 1: And of course rosen hand is saying that, uh, it's

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Speaker 1: very natural how it happens. It's funny. Rosen And was saying, like, hey, anything,

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Speaker 1: this thing is biased in the favor of these institutions,

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Speaker 1: because like this is the very barest thing that they

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Speaker 1: should be able to tell if someone is sane or insane,

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Speaker 1: and these are completely sane people, so they should really

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Speaker 1: be recognized as frauds. Like this shouldn't be too hard

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Speaker 1: for them. Yeah, I mean, like, if you're presented with

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Speaker 1: somebody who has a perfectly normal, perfectly healthy life background history, um,

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Speaker 1: like yeah, you should be able to recognize him as saint.

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Speaker 1: So that was the premise of the whole thing. He

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Speaker 1: also said that they while they were in there, if

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Speaker 1: they were accepted into the facility, they were to become

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Speaker 1: quote paragons of cooperation. That if they were given an

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Speaker 1: instruction from somebody on the staff, they were supposed to

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Speaker 1: happily comply and follow it. Um, they were supposed to

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Speaker 1: just kind of go along and get along, not cause

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Speaker 1: any waves or any trouble. And that he noticed that

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Speaker 1: there's like a built in mechanism to kind of support

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Speaker 1: people from to to be uh cooperative, and that is

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Speaker 1: that they presented themselves as psychiatric patients without anyone in

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Speaker 1: these hospitals being informed that they were there, So they

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Speaker 1: had no idea when they were going to get out.

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Speaker 1: They needed to be on their best behavior and seem

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Speaker 1: as seen as possible so that they could eventually get out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this is where it really differs from Cuckoo's Nest

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Speaker 1: because the main character there, McMurtry, was not cooperative at all,

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Speaker 1: and that you know that led to the tragic ending.

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Speaker 1: But man, yeah, what a movie. What a book. I've

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Speaker 1: never read the book is that as as good as

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Speaker 1: the movie is. It one of those rare things where

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Speaker 1: the movies even better than they're both great. It's it's

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Speaker 1: like a great book, great movie. Yeah, really good stuff. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: the other thing he had in his or claim to

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Speaker 1: have in his hip pocket you can put a pin in.

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Speaker 1: This is a writ of habeas corpus for each patient

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Speaker 1: in case. Uh. They just were like I gotta get

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Speaker 1: out of here, and the hospitals like, sorry, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: work that way. Habeas rid of habeas corpus has to

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Speaker 1: do with reporting unlawful detentions, and so rosen And said,

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Speaker 1: I've got these on hand in case anybody has to

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Speaker 1: get out. Um. And I think he presented it to

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Speaker 1: the pseudo patients that way too, right. Yeah, so don't

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Speaker 1: worry like if it if it really, if push comes

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Speaker 1: to shove, I can get you out of there through

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Speaker 1: the courts basically. So um. And it is really important

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Speaker 1: to know when you're voluntarily checking yourself into a mental

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Speaker 1: facility for the purposes of a deceptive study, right, um.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that Rosenhand needed for this

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Speaker 1: study was for pseudo patients to take copious notes and

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Speaker 1: observe everything um shot down, interactions, shot down, how they

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Speaker 1: were treated, how other patients were treated, um, just basically

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Speaker 1: everything they could document they were supposed to document, and

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Speaker 1: Rosenhand was initially really worried that this is going to

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Speaker 1: kind of show the pseudo patients hands. So they needed

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Speaker 1: to take these notes secretly, and the pseudo patients figured

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Speaker 1: out very quickly. No one at the psychiatric facility who

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Speaker 1: worked there could have cared less that they were taking

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Speaker 1: notes the entire time, and in fact, they actually, in

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Speaker 1: at least one case, attributed it to their um their

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Speaker 1: psychological condition. Yeah, I mean this, um, I think it

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Speaker 1: speaks to some of the results that we'll find, which

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Speaker 1: was there a lot of time, was not a lot

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Speaker 1: of active participation from staff to patient. So they're like,

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Speaker 1: I don't care, he's writing big whoop, right there was

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Speaker 1: There was a note in one of their files patient

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Speaker 1: engages in writing behavior, but that was it. They didn't

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Speaker 1: think it was weird. They didn't think that whatever happened,

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Speaker 1: those patients just took notes on everything. They were insane

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Speaker 1: and so of course an insane person is going to

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Speaker 1: do that. And so the pseudo patients were able to

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Speaker 1: just take notes out in the open the entire time

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Speaker 1: during their stays. I think when you write engages in

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Speaker 1: and tech behavior on the end, you can make anything

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Speaker 1: like Josh and Chuck exhibited pie casting behavior right exactly

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Speaker 1: when all of a sudden, someone's coming after us. All right,

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Speaker 1: so the study is now designed. Um, he starts, Uh,

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Speaker 1: he's collected these pseudo patients, these volunteers, I guess, and uh,

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Speaker 1: he wants to collect data in the end. Um, we

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Speaker 1: should note that he did throw out the data from

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Speaker 1: one participant because they, I think, kept making stuff up

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Speaker 1: while they were in there and didn't didn't go with

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Speaker 1: the reality of their life. Um. And then another and

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Speaker 1: I have no idea why this person's data wasn't excluded.

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Speaker 1: But another person tried, and this is very McMurtry esque.

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Speaker 1: Although he hated Nurse Ratchet, but he tried to uh

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Speaker 1: to woo a nurse on the premises. Uh said that

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Speaker 1: he was a psychologist, and UH actually provided psychotherapy to

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Speaker 1: some other patients there. Yeah. I suspect that they didn't

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Speaker 1: throw that data out because it was Rosenhan himself. Oh,

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Speaker 1: that would be my guest. My data is still good.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think of that because he was one of

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Speaker 1: the eight pseudo patients at all who went to twelve

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Speaker 1: different places in this study. Very interesting. I think it's

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Speaker 1: a great place for a break. Ye. All right, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna ponder that whole scene. Uh, and we'll be right back. Alright.

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Speaker 1: So it's nineteen it's funny. It was published in Science

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three. But I didn't see I couldn't

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Speaker 1: find anywhere when this happened. When did it actually happen?

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Speaker 1: I saw seventy two. It's weird. I looked in a

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Speaker 1: bunch of places and it all just dived right into

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Speaker 1: the thing without saying what ear it was? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: said I noticed that too. I found it in one place.

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Speaker 1: All right, So seventy two The Summers of Love and

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Speaker 1: eventually published in Science, which, of course we've talked about

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Speaker 1: it a lot. It's one of, um, if not the

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Speaker 1: most prestigious academic journal in US history. So it's not

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Speaker 1: like it was published in Popular Mechanics or something like that. Hey,

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Speaker 1: Popular Mechanics is pretty great, or BuzzFeed. Sorry, let's say

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Speaker 1: Highlights Children. Oh, I love Highlights, which is the one

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Speaker 1: I was on the cover of, like like Catholic Boy's

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00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:43,119
Speaker 1: Life or something Catholic nuns like Expelled. It was spelled

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Speaker 1: n O N E apostrophees. Uh so where were we?

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Speaker 1: All right? It's nineteen seventy three. It's published in the

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Speaker 1: journal Science. Uh. It was called on Being Sane and

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Speaker 1: Insane Places. And it's a really great read. You sent

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Speaker 1: me in the original article. It's awesome. You can still

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Speaker 1: find it and read it. It's a really good read

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Speaker 1: because it doesn't take the form of a regular scientific

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Speaker 1: academic journal. UM doesn't have a lot of data, not

319
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Speaker 1: a lot of statistics, UM, not a lot of a

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Speaker 1: lot of things UM methodology, like results. It's just sort

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Speaker 1: of written out like this kind of uh challenge essay, which,

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Speaker 1: as we'll see, ended up. You know, therere being a

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Speaker 1: lot of problems with it, but it makes for a

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Speaker 1: much better read than most things in science. Yeah. He

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Speaker 1: starts a lot of paragraphs with oh here's another thing,

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Speaker 1: right Yeah. So, Um, like I said, Rosenhan was one

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Speaker 1: of the eight pseudo patients. There were eight and all, um,

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Speaker 1: five of them were men, the other three were women. Um,

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Speaker 1: and five of the eight were somehow engaged in psychology

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Speaker 1: or psychiatry plus him, are including him? Do you know?

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Speaker 1: I think I think including him? Yeah, I think he's

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Speaker 1: included all of those. And um. He sent them to

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Speaker 1: twelve different facilities in five different states on the East

334
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Speaker 1: coast and West coast. Um, and they were all different kinds.

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Speaker 1: He specifically tried to make his sample representative of the

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Speaker 1: kind of facilities that you would find throughout the United States. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: one of them was a private hospital eleven where state run. Um,

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Speaker 1: so not the biggest division there, but they did run

339
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Speaker 1: the gamut from older kind of rundown places to newer places. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Some places had um really good ratios of patient staff,

341
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Speaker 1: some my really crutty ones uh and not nearly enough

342
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Speaker 1: staff uh, somewhere research based and oriented, somewhere not at all.

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Speaker 1: So it seems at least that he had a pretty

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Speaker 1: decent representation, right he so Um again, in the design

345
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 1: of his study, he has set it up to make

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Speaker 1: it as easy as possible for anyone in these psychiatric

347
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Speaker 1: facilities staffs to notice that, you know, this person is

348
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,520
Speaker 1: actually not mentally ill at all. They're giving us all

349
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,720
Speaker 1: this information that's contrary to that. So he he, like

350
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 1: he said before, Um, he biased it in favor of

351
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Speaker 1: the psychiatric staff finding out that these people were saying.

352
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Speaker 1: And he said that there were some things that he

353
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,639
Speaker 1: considered and then dismissed about why they may have been admitted,

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Speaker 1: because we haven't said it yet, but all eight were

355
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Speaker 1: admitted in all twelve instances, Um. And one of the

356
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Speaker 1: reasons he considers they were possibly that possibly affected the

357
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Speaker 1: diagnosis and their mission admission was that they were nervous,

358
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Speaker 1: like the site of the pseudo patients were nervous about

359
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Speaker 1: being found out they were They were nervous they were

360
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Speaker 1: going to be embarrassed or shamed or maybe get into

361
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Speaker 1: some sort of trouble Um. And so he said that

362
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Speaker 1: might have contributed a little bit, but probably no, not

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Speaker 1: enough to be admitted into a psychiatric facility. So he

364
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Speaker 1: he kind of dismisses that thought. But what he says

365
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,640
Speaker 1: is that they were all really surprised at how easily

366
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Speaker 1: they were admitted. Yeah. I mean, I think in the

367
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Speaker 1: late nineties sixties, when you show up say you're hearing

368
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Speaker 1: voices in your head, they believe you and they say,

369
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Speaker 1: all right, you're, uh schizophrenic, and welcome to the facility. Uh,

370
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Speaker 1: here's your here's your outfit, and here's your room, and uh,

371
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Speaker 1: here's your pills. And that's basically what happened. I think

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Speaker 1: they were all save one, diagnosed with schizophrenia UM. The

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Speaker 1: one was at the private run Interestingly institution, and they

374
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Speaker 1: were diagnosed as what would now be bipolar disorder. Back

375
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 1: then they called it manic depressive psychosis. But they were

376
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Speaker 1: all ushered in basically with open arms. Yeah. And I

377
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 1: saw and I think a big Think article on this

378
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,919
Speaker 1: UM study. They pointed out that, like this is the

379
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: opposite of what it's like when you try to get

380
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 1: mental health treatment today. It's really hard, it's really expensive.

381
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Speaker 1: You don't just show up and they let you in

382
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 1: and here's your gown and here's your pills kind of thing.

383
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Speaker 1: So it's kind of interesting in that respect as well.

384
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Speaker 1: But then once these pseudo patients were in the ward again,

385
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,199
Speaker 1: they have diagnoses of schizophrenia. Now, um, there wasn't a

386
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 1: single instance where any of their behavior was questioned by

387
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 1: the staff, are considered suspicious, and um he got he

388
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 1: obtained most of the reports from these visits and in

389
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 1: the files, there's no questioning or suspicion whatsoever about the

390
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,120
Speaker 1: pseudo patients at all. No, I mean they would uh

391
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 1: the reports were really good, and that all the people

392
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: were like model patients and cooperating and friendly and engaging

393
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: and like. These things were noted, but no one ever

394
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: said like, uh, and we'll see you know some of them, Well,

395
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 1: we'll get to that point. Because I think that's one

396
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,360
Speaker 1: of the more remarkable parts of it is how they

397
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 1: noted that. But what they didn't note was like, you

398
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: know what, this person doesn't seem like there's anything going

399
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 1: on with them at all. Uh. It was just sort

400
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 1: of accepted, like they're here, so this is what is

401
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: going on with them. It's really interesting. But that was

402
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 1: the staff, right, What about the other patients of the facility. Yeah,

403
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: this I think is super fascinating. They were the only

404
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 1: ones that were into it. The other patients they were

405
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: basically were like, you're not one of us, and I

406
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: and we can tell um and I trying to remember

407
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 1: in Cuckoo's Nest, I think he basically told everyone right away,

408
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: like the other patients like I don't belong here, um,

409
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 1: and he kind of became the de facto leader. But

410
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 1: at uh these places with rosen Han, they've they basically said, hey,

411
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 1: we don't think you're real. We think you're either a

412
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: journalist um, trying to expose the facility, or maybe you're

413
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 1: you work for the facility and you're you know, in

414
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: there as a mole kind of checking on things. Yeah exactly,

415
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 1: but either way, we don't believe you. And it seems

416
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: like in most cases they were uh. And I love

417
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 1: that you actually put sniffed off the case and because

418
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 1: you put this together, But they were sniffed off the

419
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: case generally by just being reassured by the pseudo patients

420
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: that no, I'm just feeling better, That's why I'm acting

421
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,239
Speaker 1: this way, right. Can't you just see Mr Martini saying, like,

422
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: I know you're checking up on the hospital. So there's

423
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: the thing that Rosenhand points out, and he just kind

424
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 1: of brushes past it, but it's kind of important. He

425
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: says that while the other patients you know, found them

426
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: out immediately, um, none of the pseudo patients were closely

427
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: examined by the psychiatric staff, by the actual psychiatrists. They

428
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: had plenty of interaction with the nurses, the order lads,

429
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: you know, the people who interact with the patient's day today.

430
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: But none of them, in all twelve instances, all twelve visits,

431
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: none of them were closely examined by a psychiatrist. And

432
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: you can imagine that an inmate or a patient at

433
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: one of these facilities is going to have the opportunity

434
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: to really closely pay attention to you and interact with

435
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: you and see your behavior. So it might have been

436
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 1: easier for them just because they interacted with them more.

437
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: But he defends this, you know, potential flaw in his

438
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: design and saying like, these hospitals had plenty of opportunity

439
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: to closely examine pseudo patients and they didn't. So whether

440
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: that was the reason they didn't find them out or not,

441
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: it was still a huge failing of the psychiatric system

442
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: and their process, and that they didn't even closely examine

443
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: these people to see that, oh no, actually these people

444
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 1: are faking. Yeah. And not to harp on Cuckoo's Nest,

445
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 1: but it was written, you know, as a as a

446
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: real thing that Kesy did, and it was that's what

447
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 1: happened in that book. He you had this initial meeting

448
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: with a psychiatrist where they diagnosed him, and then it's like,

449
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 1: all right, this is where you live now, and these

450
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,479
Speaker 1: are the orderlies and these are the nurses, and this

451
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: is your life. There was no regular check ins to

452
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: see if anybody was getting better, and that was the

453
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 1: whole point of this experiment, and in a lot of

454
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 1: ways was like it wasn't being done right. These people

455
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: were just being sent to live away because they were

456
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: a hassle for their family. They were being sent to

457
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: live somewhere else now, right. So one of the other

458
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: themes of Um one flew over the Cuckoo's Nest is that,

459
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: you know, Jack Nicholson is kind of slowly driven crazy,

460
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 1: I guess you could say, from being institutionalized. It was

461
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: one of the main themes um and Rosenhan Actually I

462
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: don't maybe he did read that book because he accounted

463
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: for this. Um. He didn't report it I think in

464
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 1: the study, but um in a memoir that was found

465
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: after he died. Uh. He apparently had people visit, you know,

466
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: friends visit the patients during their stay, and then would

467
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: interview the friends to see if they noticed any actual

468
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: change in the pseudo patients, and that none of them did.

469
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: There was no major, you know, noticeable effect of institutionalization

470
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: that could have accounted for people you know, mistaking them

471
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 1: as as um, you know, having schizophrenia or something. Yeah.

472
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: And this was over the course. What was the average stay?

473
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: How many weeks? I think nineteen days, almost three weeks

474
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 1: for the average. Yeah. So it's it's long enough to

475
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: where someone could have said to a visitor like, hey,

476
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: this place is really wearing on me, starting to lose

477
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: it a little bit. Uh, And apparently that didn't happen. Um.

478
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: This is the part that I think really fascinated me

479
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: was that, Uh, the more saying they were, which was

480
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 1: to say, uh, saying appearing um, the more that was

481
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: looked at as a symptom of schizophrenia. So they would

482
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: act completely normal, be super friendly, um and very cooperative

483
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: and sort of like the writing behavior thing. When they

484
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: looked at these notes, they would indicate this cooperation or

485
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 1: just good sense sometimes to do things as part of

486
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: their problem. Um, and we'll go over a few a

487
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: few of them. It's it's shocking. Um. There was one

488
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: that lined up early for meals because I guess they

489
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: were smart enough to know, like, hey, I get at

490
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: the front of the line, I get whatever more food

491
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: or the best food, you know, the best chicken breasts.

492
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: I don't know. I saw, well, I saw it explained,

493
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: is there's not a lot else to do or anticipation reward,

494
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: so like that's that's something to look forward to. Yeah,

495
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: so they noted that as as an example of oral

496
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: acquisitive psychotic behavior instead of just like being hungry and bored.

497
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: Right exactly. That was that was a big recurring theme

498
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: throughout right. Yeah. This next one was really kind of funny. Um,

499
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: this one pseudo patient was talking about their marriage in

500
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: their home life and they said, he, you know, my

501
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: my life is pretty good. My wife and I get along.

502
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: We have occasional arguments. Um, very rarely. I spanked my kids,

503
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: which was you know, something you did back then. So

504
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: in that context, it was quote unquote normal family life. Uh.

505
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: And they said that his attempts to control emotionality with

506
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: his wife and children are punctuated by angry outbursts and

507
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: in the case of UH, in the case of the children, spankings.

508
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: Instead of just saying in in marriage, they exhibited behaviors

509
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: of being married, which is to say, occasionally arguing and

510
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: again in those days, like I was spanked when I

511
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: was a kid, we expect, yes I was, and now

512
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: it's my choice. Good for you. What was the other one?

513
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: What was the uh? Oh? So that same guy who

514
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: was trying to control emotionality with his wife. Um, they

515
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: said that. So during his interview and take interview, he

516
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: said that when he was a kid, he'd been close

517
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: to his mom but kind of distant from his father,

518
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: and then as he became an adult, he actually became

519
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: close friends with his father and just not quite as

520
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: close with his mom. Right, that turned into um, a

521
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: considerable ambivalence and close relationships, and that his effective stability

522
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,959
Speaker 1: is absent, meaning he's emotionally unstable. Yeah, that's what they

523
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: gathered from that. You know, my brothers and sisters and me,

524
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: we really fought a lot when we were young. But

525
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: now that we're adults, we all get along really well. Right,

526
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: right exactly, that is psychotic. So the rosenhand goes to um,

527
00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: he goes, he stops and points out, like this is

528
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,959
Speaker 1: a kind of a major section in the study. He's saying, like,

529
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: this is the context of the hospital setting. This environment

530
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: shapes people's perceptions. And he was saying that the people's

531
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: very sane, very normal personal histories didn't affect the diagnosis

532
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: of schizophrenia. The diagnosis of schizophrenia altered everyone else's perception

533
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: of their very sane and very normal personal histories. Yeah,

534
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: and what really struck me was the Uh, and this

535
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: is something I think you could, like I said, you

536
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: can still see today in some cases, is the de

537
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: personalization that happened. Uh, it was kind of constant. It

538
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: seems like these patients were generally ignored. Um, this is

539
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: he Like I said, there wasn't a ton of raw data,

540
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: but there was a little bit, And one of them

541
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: was that they were close to fifteen hundred patient initiated

542
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: contacts with the staff, like four hundred and sixty eight times. Uh.

543
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: The eight pseudo patients went up and in aged the

544
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: staff somehow, for some reason. And apparently less than three

545
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: percent of those resulted in actual verbal engagement back to them.

546
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: So that tells me that they would just say something

547
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: to them and be ignored at the time, right, Yeah,

548
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: they would be ignored. They were powerless because they were

549
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: stripped of rights, they were mistreated, sometimes violently by the staff.

550
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: They were just treated like they weren't there, and they

551
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,959
Speaker 1: came to kind of question their self worth just as

552
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: a part of the institutionalization process. Um. And that was

553
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: a big, big point um from this study and one

554
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: of the lasting effects that had was pointing this out. Um.

555
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: And like you said, I think the average length of

556
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: stay was nineteen days, The shortest stay was seven days,

557
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: the longest stay was fifty two days. Someone was digging it.

558
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: And in eleven out of twelve of these visits, the patients,

559
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: the pseudo patients were diagnosed with schizophrenia when they left,

560
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: when they were determined to be able to return to society,

561
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: they weren't labeled sane or cured or mentally healthy. They

562
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: were labeled as having schizophrenia in remission. And that is

563
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: what Rosenhand was talking about, that once you're labeled insane

564
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: in our society, especially in the middle of the twentieth century.

565
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: You were insane for the rest of your life. It's

566
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: just you might not be actively insane at the moment. Yeah. Absolutely,

567
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: So I say we take a break because, uh, we

568
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: got a pretty good twist in the story coming up,

569
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: and then we'll finish up about how this whole experiment

570
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: is viewed these days right after this, Okay, chuck sie,

571
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: So there's an extra twist coming. Um, Rosenhand is just

572
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: showing off at this point. He's running circles around the

573
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: field of psychiatry, juggling bowling pins that are on fire

574
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: for fun, right. Sure. Apparently somehow this word of the

575
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: study got out before the publication of the study, and

576
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 1: some hospital challenged Rosenhand. They said this could not possibly

577
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: happen at our hospital. So he actually worked with a

578
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: research hospital, um and said, Okay, the staff was informed

579
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: that over the next three months, one or more pseudo

580
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: patients was going to be admitted, and they had the

581
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: staff rate the patients that were admitted over those three

582
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,919
Speaker 1: months to see if they could figure out which one

583
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 1: was actually faking game on. That's right. Uh So of

584
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: the one dred and ninety three patients that were admitted

585
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: to this hospital over a three month period, um, there

586
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: were forty one that were sniffed off the case as

587
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: pseudo patients by at least one person on the nerving staffing.

588
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:05,399
Speaker 1: You know, they were nervous. It's the funnest staff. Uh.

589
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: Twenty three. Uh, we're sniffed off the case by at

590
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: least one psychiatrists, and nineteen of them were suspected by

591
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: at least a psychiatrist and at least one of the

592
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: people on the nursing staff so uh, by at least

593
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: one of the other Uh. Forty fifty sixty four of

594
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: them were suspected as being pseudo patients. And how many

595
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: pseudo patients did rosen Hans send their way? Zero? Not

596
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: fair trick question. He's like Wallace Shawn and the Prince's

597
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: bride all of a sudden, that's right. So yeah, he

598
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: didn't deploy any pseudo patients to the hospital and just

599
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 1: basically let them chase shadows to prove that not only

600
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: could they not detect false negatives, they couldn't detect false

601
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: positives correctly either. So in psychology they call false positives

602
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: and false negatives type one and type two errors. And

603
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: he was basically showing like psychiatry is full of judging

604
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: type one and type two errors. Yeah. I wonder if

605
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: there was one person on the staff that was trying

606
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: to talk everyone into like he's not sending any I

607
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: know it. I know this guy is just messing with us.

608
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: They locked that guy up and gave him powerful anti

609
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 1: psychotic medication. Yeah. So again, I'm sure he was very

610
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: pleased with himself after this challenge. Uh. And this is

611
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 1: at a time and you know I mentioned Titticut Follies earlier. Uh,

612
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: this is also a time when there was a, um,

613
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of sort of inside looks at

614
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 1: what was going on in these hospitals. Thankfully because so

615
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: many of them were exposed in the early seventies. Geraldo

616
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: Rivera Uh kind of one of the first ways he

617
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: made a name for himself was, uh, the work he

618
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: did exposing the Willowbrook States School for the developmentally Disabled

619
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 1: on State in Island. Um. Uh, Titticut Follies. Frederick Reisman

620
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: um did the same thing in the late sixties, and

621
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: I think even in the eighteen hundreds, a journalist named

622
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: Nellie Blye did sort of the same thing, going undercover

623
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: to write a book called Ten Days in a Madhouse.

624
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,879
Speaker 1: And then of course Kenkisi, Yeah, there's ken Kizi. Two

625
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: there was a life magazine spread from n called I

626
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: Think Bedlam forty. And all of these things like really

627
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 1: shocked the conscience of society over and over and over again,

628
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 1: and so together, including this wave of anti psychiatry, um,

629
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: Rosenhand's experiment with all these other things helped kind of

630
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: shape public perception and turn it against if not psychiatry itself,

631
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: certainly the large state run um depersonalizing institutions that people

632
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: were typically placed in when they suffered from mental illness. Yeah,

633
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: and you shouldn't be surprised to learn that John F.

634
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: Kennedy was the first president to really kind of try

635
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: and tackle this in a substantive way, um, because you know,

636
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: he very famously had mental illness in his family. They

637
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: had a lobotomy in his family, right, yeah, Rosemary. And

638
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 1: so he got on it and said, let's put it

639
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 1: into the guise of the federal government and get it

640
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: out of the hands of the state. That was more fat,

641
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: that was more fat tony than jfk oh mayor Quimby.

642
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: Come on, um, I know we're all frightened in Horney

643
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: one of the greatest lines ever on the citizens totally

644
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 1: uh yeah. So he said, let's let's put it under

645
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: the hands of the federal government. The state run facilities

646
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: are ignored and underfunded, and it's a it's a an

647
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: S show in there. He coined that term to uh. So,

648
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: he signed the Community Mental Health Act in nineteen sixty three,

649
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: but that was underfunded, and that was also an S show. Yeah. So,

650
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 1: so the responsibility for treating the mentally ill went from

651
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: the States to the Feds, but and the Feds never

652
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: funded that bill. So the treatment of the mentally ill

653
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: and who is responsible was basically in limbo for almost

654
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 1: twenty years um. And then Reagan came along and said,

655
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 1: how about this. We'll just push it back to the

656
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: states and we'll give them a little bit of funding,

657
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: but not enough. And over the years, the kind of

658
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 1: ping ponging between institutions and community based treatment, states responsibility

659
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 1: and federal responsibility, all these state run beds were closing

660
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: and closing, and there are fewer and fewer of them,

661
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: and so we end up where we are today, which

662
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: is a mixture of community based treatment, state run hospitals,

663
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,439
Speaker 1: they're definitely still there. And then private treatment and all

664
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 1: of them put together is just not enough. That's why

665
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 1: it's so hard and so expensive to get treatment for

666
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: mental health issues today in the United States. Yeah, and

667
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: although you can't say this is the only reason, that's

668
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: one of the reason why so many people, sadly in

669
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: this country are unhoused today, including you know, veterans, military

670
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: veterans of the United States. And it's just reprehensible the

671
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: blind dive that has been taken over the years. In

672
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, there was something called the Penrose hypothesis,

673
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: which basically lays most of the blame on UH imprisonment

674
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: of the mentally ill and the unhoused population that's mentally

675
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: ill uh squarely the feet of D institute D instante.

676
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: I can do this. You can't sound it out. D

677
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: institutionalization hooked down fun It's worked for you, man. That

678
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: is a when you look at that, that's a lot

679
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,280
Speaker 1: of letters it is. It's it's a real bone head word.

680
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: I just gave myself a pat on the back. You

681
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: should you deserve it here you say it right now quick,

682
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 1: D institutionalization. You show off you've been practicing for once. Anyway,

683
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: it doesn't that doesn't mean anything. Anyone who listens to

684
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: the podcast is that me practicing has zero effect on

685
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: my pronunciation? Is true? Uh So the Penrose hypothesis lays

686
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 1: the blame squarely on that uh word that you just said.

687
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: That's very long and impressive, and you know their statistics

688
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: that helped back that up. Um. I think from eighteen

689
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 1: eighty to two thousand five, the percentage of people with

690
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: mental illness in prison rose from less than one percent. Yeah,

691
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: and what else about the unhoused. There's a study from

692
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: the mid nineties that found that the population of the

693
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: unhoused in the United States was a hundred thousand and

694
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty and then in it was up to four

695
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: hundred thousand. Again, that is spans the entire um administration

696
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: of Ronald Reagan, and a lot of people lay this

697
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: at his feet. And again it's not that clear cut.

698
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 1: The Penrose hypothesis is not cut and dried. But those

699
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 1: are some pretty startling statistics. And the idea that if

700
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: you shut down giant state run insto tuitions and you

701
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,800
Speaker 1: don't have enough treatment facilities elsewhere, what's going to happen

702
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: to those people? And it seems like a lot of

703
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: them end up on the streets or in prison, and

704
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: that's what America does with It's a large part of

705
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: its mentally ill population today, especially ones that are people

706
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: of color and other minorities. To absolutely. Um. As far

707
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: as Rosenhan's experiment today, how it's viewed, it's, um, why

708
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 1: is that funny? Anytime you say rosen Han, now, I'm

709
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: just gonna crack up. Um, it's it's a little bit

710
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: of a Stanford prison experiment view of it, which is, um, Hey,

711
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 1: this was interesting. We learned some things, but it was

712
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 1: not rigorous scientifically. There was no randomization, there was no control,

713
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: there was no sampling or blinding. Um, you didn't report

714
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: how you train these participants. A lot of people have

715
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: disregarded it, like you know, people that are well respected

716
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: in the in the commune, in any psychiatric community and

717
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: psychological community. Is nonsense and bunk um and just heavily criticized. Uh.

718
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: This one quote is I think pretty interesting. As a

719
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: neuroscientist named Seymour Ketty that uh said, this is explanation

720
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: if I were to drink a cord of blood and

721
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: concealing what I had done, come to the emergency room

722
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: of any hospital and vomited blood. That behavior of the

723
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: staff would be quite predictable. Uh, they would label and

724
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 1: treat me as having a bleeding peptic ulcer. And I

725
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: doubt that I could argue convincingly that medical science doesn't

726
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: know how to diagnose that condition. This is taking a

727
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: little far in a different direction, I think, but I

728
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: get the point. I saw it put a little more

729
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: succinctly by a writer in psychology today who said, the

730
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 1: only thing the studies showed was that it is possible

731
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: to deceive doctors by lying to them. So the study

732
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: does have as detractors if you don't share your data

733
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: like or your methodology like, it's not a scientific paper

734
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 1: at bait. But rosen Hands experiment has survived all these

735
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 1: years because even as detractors say, well, it did a

736
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: really good job of raising the issue of powerlessness and

737
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: deep personalization in institutions, and that, in and of itself

738
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: meat makes it a worthwhile study or paper at least

739
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: for essay. I think it's super interesting and really interesting

740
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: to read, and I think I agree. I think it

741
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: did expose a lot of things, But I don't think

742
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 1: you could, like point to it as proof of anything

743
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 1: necessarily except that the system was pretty messed up. Yeah,

744
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: and the system is still messed up. I mean that's

745
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 1: that that initial thing that already Lang hit on, that

746
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 1: that psychiatry treats behaviors it observes with biological medicine is

747
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: still a problem. There's a guy who used to be

748
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: the head of the National Institute of Mental Health, Thomas Insel,

749
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: and he said, unlike our definitions of ischemic heart disease,

750
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: lymphoma or AIDS, the D s M diagnoses are based

751
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,919
Speaker 1: on a consensus about clusters of clinical symptoms, not any

752
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: objective laboratory measure. So psychiatry still finds itself in the

753
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: same place as ever, and it's now having to fend

754
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: off kind of um a turf four that's been started

755
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: by neuroscientists whore like all this stuff is brain based,

756
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: and we're the ones who can look into the brain.

757
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: We need to be taking over this stuff, and psychiatrists

758
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 1: are like nine in the in the tradition of Freud. Uh.

759
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 1: And also, by the way, if people listening, uh, you

760
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: said r D the initials r D laying not already laying.

761
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: If you're wondering what Howard Sterns one time sidekick comedian

762
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: already Lying had to do with any of this? Didn't

763
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: he hang out with Norm McDonald a lot too. Yeah,

764
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: I think they were pals, like already Lang. He had

765
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: some bad troubles for a while. I think he's doing

766
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 1: better now. Yeah. R I p Norm McDonald too. Yeah.

767
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 1: So as far as Rosenhan himself, there was a book

768
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 1: a few years ago and twenty nine team from Susannah

769
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 1: Cahalan unless you misspelled Callahan, No, I really wish I had,

770
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: because that's a tough one. It's probably Kahalan. Uh. It

771
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: was called The Great Pretender, And Susannah was not very

772
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: kind to rosen Han and basically said, this guy is

773
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 1: kind of a fraud, Like I found instances where Uh,

774
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: first of all, he didn't have that rid of habeas

775
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: corpus man. He said he did and told them he did,

776
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: which is really not cool. Um Uh what else, Well,

777
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 1: some of the data, some of the numbers that he

778
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: put out there don't match. Like she tracked one guy down,

779
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: Bill Underwood, who was a pseudo patient, and that particular

780
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: pseudo patient supposedly spent seven days in a hospital at

781
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 1: eight thousand patients. He actually spent eight days in a

782
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: hospital of fift patients, which matters if Rosenhand was saying, no,

783
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,280
Speaker 1: I'm really kind of getting a random sampler, good sampling

784
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: of hospitals in America, big ones and small ones, etcetera.

785
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: If he didn't have an eight thousand patient hospital and

786
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: d was the tops, maybe that wasn't as random as

787
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 1: you'd think. Yeah, And she also, uh, didn't quite but

788
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 1: came close to accusing him of flat out making up

789
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: about half the people. Um, I don't know this is

790
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: because she only found three plus him uh and said, well,

791
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: maybe he made up the rest or was there like

792
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 1: actual evidence that he may have just made up the

793
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: rest the former But she took out a an ad

794
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 1: basically as an editorial in the Lancet, which is a British,

795
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: very respective British medical journal, um saying like, hey, I'm

796
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: looking for the other pseudo patients and got nothing, not

797
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: a single bite, not not a lead or anything. So

798
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: she wonders if actually they didn't exist. Interesting. Yeah, And

799
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: so the thing is, though it doesn't really matter, Like

800
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: even if he did make up half the data and

801
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 1: half the pseudo patients, it doesn't matter because this study

802
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: isn't based on the data. It's all about the fact

803
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: that it kind of shone this light on the way,

804
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: you know, people are treated and how the mentally ill

805
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 1: were treated in the United States at that time. You

806
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 1: got anything else, no good stuff? Nice work, thanks me,

807
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: Nice work you. If you want to know more about Rosenhand,

808
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: rosen Han, whoever, um, you can look up this article

809
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,760
Speaker 1: on being sane and insane places all over the Internet

810
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 1: and I think you'll enjoy it tremendously. And since I

811
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: said that it's time for listener mail listener mail, I'm

812
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 1: gonna call this a couple of quick things on our

813
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: Mediacci episode. I'm not gonna read this full email, but

814
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 1: I did want to point this band out because listen

815
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: to it and they're awesome. This is from J Deptman

816
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: sent in this band MARRYATCHI l bronx Uh and they

817
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: were originally a punk band from l A And apparently

818
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 1: they did an acoustic set for a TV show and

819
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: they played it with a mariachi style just because it

820
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: had that energy and then they were like, hey, this

821
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: is awesome and that's kind of what they're known for now.

822
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 1: And I played some of it and it's really awesome.

823
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,800
Speaker 1: And these guys, a lot of them are Caucasian and

824
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: they wear those outfits and they look awesome. Awesome. See.

825
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 1: But the real email I'm gonna read is uh from

826
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: Marlena Maynard. She her hers, who is a voice teacher,

827
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: So I imagine Marlena from Nashville knows what she's talking about. Hey, guys,

828
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: just listen to the episode about Mariaci music. I love

829
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: how you highlighted issues of class and race in the

830
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 1: musical and academic world. I'm a classical singer and vocal coach,

831
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: and as a professional in the field, we certainly have

832
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: a long way to go in terms of equity and diversity.

833
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,360
Speaker 1: But Chuck, you mentioned that you love hearing many voices

834
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: singing harmony. You weren't sure if five part harmony is

835
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 1: a thing. Oh, I have great news, which is that

836
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: there isn't really an upper limit at all. Five part

837
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 1: harmony is fairly common in choral music. If the composer

838
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:45,439
Speaker 1: wants to fill out a chord, they can simply write

839
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: another note and the members of that section will know

840
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: how to divide accordingly. You also will encounter a lot

841
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: of pieces for eight voices i e. A double choir

842
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: or two soprano parts to alto, to tenor and to

843
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,800
Speaker 1: bass parts. Uh, and then gives an example which I

844
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: think people should check out. It's called the piece with

845
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: most parts. With the most parts that I'm aware of

846
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: is spem in ali Um by Thomas Talise Is from

847
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: the early sixteenth century. It's got forty vocal parts. Uh.

848
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: So just go look that up s P E M

849
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 1: I N A l I U M on YouTube. And

850
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 1: then there's a couple of more um and also lists

851
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: of bachuin um. And this is Marlena's favorite five part

852
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: choral pieces, the second movement of Yezo Mina Freida by J. S. Bach.

853
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 1: Very nice, So go check all those out. Check out

854
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: Mariachi l Bronx. You've got a great Tiny Desk concert,

855
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 1: among other things. Those are always fun to watch. Do

856
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: you ever see those? Yeah? I saw one when we

857
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: did the Mariotti and the Flora. I can't remember the

858
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 1: all all women um four piece Mariott band from New York. Yeah,

859
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: that's off the NPR. The Tiny Desk concert is long

860
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: been one of my favorite things. So Chuck. Since we're

861
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: talking music, though, I want to just go ahead and

862
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: give a shout out an announcement. You could say, are

863
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 1: you ready for this? Did your niece write an album?

864
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 1: Not yet, she's working on it. Um. Instead, you asked

865
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 1: for it and they're giving it to you. On November

866
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: twenty second, Diarrhea Planet is reuniting in Nashville. What's this

867
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: because of us? I probably I'm just gonna I assume

868
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 1: everything is because of us. No, I don't think it is,

869
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: but I want to go to that show. I bet

870
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: you that place is going to go off because they

871
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: haven't played together in three or four years now. They

872
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: broke up in two thousand eighteen. So they're going to

873
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: be at the Exit Inn in Nashville November twenty seconde

874
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 1: if you want to make a pilgrimage there. You know,

875
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: I'm looking at my calendar when it that's it's a

876
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: bad time a year Diarrhea Planet right at Thanksgiving, right

877
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: around my wife's birthday. But I've been in more trouble

878
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 1: in my marriage, so Nashville's pretty close. I'm going to

879
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,320
Speaker 1: the see Stevie Nicks. Really, I'm going to see Diaria

880
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: Planet there. Emily's like, you skip my birthday to see who? Yeah?

881
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: Fantom Planet with Jason Swartzman oh Man so Chuck who

882
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: was the the original the two people who wrote in

883
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: Marlena is the vocal coach and Jay turned me onto

884
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 1: Mariachi l Bronx. That's right, Thanks Marlena and Ja. If

885
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 1: you want to point out some cool music we've never

886
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,319
Speaker 1: heard before, we love that kind of thing. You can

887
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 1: send us an email to stuff podcast at iHeart radio

888
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of

889
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit

890
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,919
Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

891
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.