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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Ah, we are back. It's behind the Bastards, the only

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Speaker 2: podcast that will be allowed once our junta takes over.

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Speaker 2: We are we're actively planning the overthrow of the US

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Speaker 2: government and the end of democracy, but not to any

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Speaker 2: kind of political end. We don't really have an agenda

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Speaker 2: or a plan. We just really want to get more

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Speaker 2: people listening to podcasts, so, you know, a worthy, worthy

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Speaker 2: cause for democracy to die as a result of Mara Wilson,

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Speaker 2: How do you feel about killing democracy to moderately increase

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Speaker 2: the profitability of a podcast.

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Speaker 3: I mean, well, I guess it really depends which podcast

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Speaker 3: we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: I mean this one, not not one of those other podcasts.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean this one, this one, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 3: I mean for fundsis, you know, destroying democracy for funzis.

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Speaker 3: I think a little destroyed a little bit, you know,

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Speaker 3: we can and for a person who's.

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Speaker 2: Been yes, think of the dog food Anderson will be

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Speaker 2: able to afford once we purge all all of the

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Speaker 2: opponents of our new regime.

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Speaker 1: You know, if there was a dog food that was

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Speaker 1: or it was like that worth it, I would spend

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Speaker 1: every dollar on it for her, every dollar.

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Speaker 2: That's what we're going to do with the dissidents is

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Speaker 2: turn them into quality dog food. You deserve speaking quality

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Speaker 2: dog food, not really speaking of that at all. That

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Speaker 2: has nothing to do with our guests today, Marow Wilson, Mara,

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Speaker 2: how are you doing? How are you feeling as we're

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Speaker 2: coming to part two of this?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm doing okay. This is very infuriating to

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Speaker 3: me for a lot of reasons, but I mean I

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Speaker 3: am glad in some ways. I'm very glad that this

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Speaker 3: is something that I'm passionate about and I fucking hate

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Speaker 3: and uh.

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Speaker 2: And yes that, but you've been a great guest. I

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Speaker 2: am also so thrilled about your memoir. Where am I now?

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Speaker 2: Which people can buy wherever books are sold, or you

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Speaker 2: can buy it wherever books are sold. Take it to

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Speaker 2: a place where books aren't sold, sell it there, you know, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: help help out a little bit? Why not, Mara? As

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Speaker 2: a as a side note, you were, you know in

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Speaker 2: a movie people probably know famous film Matilda, in which

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Speaker 2: the bad guy is an evil used car dealer. We

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Speaker 2: talk a lot on this show about how used car

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Speaker 2: dealers in general are one of the largest funders of

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Speaker 2: the radical right. How would you feel about us like

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Speaker 2: repurpot it, purposing some of the old art for that

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Speaker 2: into like like World War two era, like we have

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Speaker 2: to destroy the car dealer menace propaganda posters.

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Speaker 3: I do kind of wonder about. I mean, Danny DeVito

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Speaker 3: might be in favor of that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he seems like a pretty cool guy.

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Speaker 3: Oh, he's very cool. He's very cool. Like, yeah, I

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Speaker 3: he's very cool. And he's also also also not a

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Speaker 3: bad guy to talk politics with in my opinion, But

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Speaker 3: he and I think have similar beliefs, So yeah.

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Speaker 2: Much genuinely nice to hear. Well, folks, you know, make

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Speaker 2: make matilt proud, destroy the political power of the car

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Speaker 2: dealers trying to wrench our country away from democracy. I know,

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Speaker 2: I just talked about ending democracy to increase my profits.

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Speaker 2: But it's bad when other people do it, you know.

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Speaker 2: Obviously speaking of things that are bad when other people

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Speaker 2: do them. Wilderness camps not the best intro, but whatever,

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Speaker 2: you know, Mara, you brought up last episode. I just

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Speaker 2: wanted to highlight this because I thought it was particularly

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Speaker 2: perceptive the similarities to sen and On, which was really

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Speaker 2: meaningful because while I think there's maybe aspects of like

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Speaker 2: the way in which they would kind of like basically

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Speaker 2: kidnap addicts. That were probably inspirations to Steve Cartizano for

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Speaker 2: doing this at his camps. The more direct inspirations were

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Speaker 2: how they did a lot of the actual quote unquote therapy,

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Speaker 2: because one of the things that he was a big

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Speaker 2: advocate for in his camps was what's called anger therapy.

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Speaker 2: This is when you sit everyone around in a circle

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Speaker 2: and have everyone yell at one person at a time

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Speaker 2: about how shitty they are and what a terrible person.

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Speaker 2: It's basically the whole group abuses every individual member in it,

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Speaker 2: one person at a time. Right, And the fact that

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Speaker 2: such a rending experience creates this like feeling of catharsis

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Speaker 2: that's the idea, right. The reality is it's just incredibly

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Speaker 2: psychologically damaging.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think it's sort of like if you

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Speaker 3: get into a fight with somebody and they say really

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Speaker 3: mean things to you, you know afterwards, that's going to

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Speaker 3: stay with you. You're going to think, you know, for

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Speaker 3: the time, oh this is what they really think of me?

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Speaker 3: Are they?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 3: And that affects your relationships, that affects your self perception.

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Speaker 2: So when we talk about Troubled Team Wilderness camps, that

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Speaker 2: starve and beat students. The obvious question that comes to

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Speaker 2: mind is how on earth is any of this legal.

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Speaker 2: And in order to tell that story, we have to

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Speaker 2: go back in time again to the nineteen fifties and

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Speaker 2: the Second Red Scare. In the post war era, you

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Speaker 2: see the birth of organizations like the John Birch Society,

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Speaker 2: which had been formed kind of as a reaction to

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Speaker 2: the fact that the New Deal got forced through and

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Speaker 2: all of these rich guys had to get slightly less

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Speaker 2: rich so other people wouldn't starve to death. So in

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Speaker 2: order to stop that from ever happening again, they start

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Speaker 2: funding these conspiracist organizations like the John Birch Society, which

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Speaker 2: preaches about a vast communist conspiracy in which your sinister

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Speaker 2: socialist professors and teachers are going to steal your kids. Right,

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Speaker 2: That's a big part of the propaganda they put out.

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Speaker 2: And this is the first time in which conservative parents

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Speaker 2: start organizing as a group and insisting on doing their

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Speaker 2: own audits of schools and of teachers, initially just to

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Speaker 2: try to ferret out communist influence. Now, not long after this,

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Speaker 2: she started getting desegregation, which leads to an explosion in

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Speaker 2: the growth of private school facilities, and again a lot

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Speaker 2: of parents being like, we should have the right to

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Speaker 2: ensure our children don't have to be educated next to

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Speaker 2: kids who are a color we don't like. Right that

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Speaker 2: comes in right alongside we don't want our kids to

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Speaker 2: be taught communism.

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Speaker 3: Well, the funny thing is I think that like this

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Speaker 3: led to and it is something that even went on

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Speaker 3: I think in the nineties and two thousands. There was

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Speaker 3: this sort of like like my family were like lower

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Speaker 3: middle class, you know, my dad was like a libertarian

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Speaker 3: Republican and my stepmother was kind of a political She's

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Speaker 3: a Filipino Catholic, so she was religious. But basically like

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Speaker 3: they thought that private schools were inherently better than public schools. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: which meant that I spent most of my time at

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Speaker 3: public school because you know, I guess my mom had

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Speaker 3: been a Democrat and she and then when we got older,

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Speaker 3: they really pushed my sister into going to private school.

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Speaker 3: But since we weren't wealthy, she ended up at like

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Speaker 3: the shittiest private school ever because there was no oversight

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Speaker 3: and it was inexpensive. And so that happens all the

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Speaker 3: time that people end up going to these places where

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Speaker 3: there's no oversight and crazy shit happens all the time.

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Speaker 3: Like that's that's what it is. Like, my my sister

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Speaker 3: ended up at the school where just all this crazy

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Speaker 3: shit happened. Yeah, and it was like a very specific

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Speaker 3: religious sect that none of us belonged to, and so

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Speaker 3: she got kind of brought just to that.

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Speaker 2: I believe in God, there's no way they'll abuse kids

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Speaker 2: like the Catholic church.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean it wasn't like actively abusive to her, but.

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Speaker 2: It was weird school. Yeah. Yes.

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Speaker 3: She has a lot of very crazy stories about like

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Speaker 3: oh yeah, there was a man who was living in

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Speaker 3: the gym and see that sounds like like because his

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Speaker 3: wife kicked him out, but he was like in good

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Speaker 3: standing in the church, so he.

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Speaker 2: Lived in oh man. See, I have my experience with

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Speaker 2: private school kids that makes me always laugh whenever parents

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Speaker 2: talk about like this is what I'm going to do

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Speaker 2: so that the public schools don't ruin my kid by

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Speaker 2: teaching them secular values. There was a Catholic private school

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Speaker 2: called Jesuit in the Dallas area, and the Jesuit Boys

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Speaker 2: were who you would buy drugs from as a teenager.

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Speaker 2: Because the Jesuit Boys always had weed and acid and

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Speaker 2: like cocaine and stuff.

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Speaker 3: They're all on and they're all on drugs and make

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Speaker 3: serious drugs too, Like nobody could afford cocaine at MBLIC school.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, rich kids can be and they

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Speaker 2: cut it with baby powder to sell the pores. It's tragic.

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Speaker 2: That's why I operate a charity that provides underprivileged kids

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Speaker 2: with quality.

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Speaker 3: Blow.

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Speaker 2: This shit is straight from Columbia. We don't step on

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Speaker 2: it all only Sophie. It's a five oh one C three.

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Speaker 2: We're allowed to talk about it on the air.

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Speaker 3: Does your friend Oliver North help with it?

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Speaker 2: Yes, Actually he's been a huge part of our organizing.

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Speaker 2: He knew a lot of people.

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Speaker 3: Did he die? Did he die?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: I think he's got to still be alive.

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Speaker 3: See one of those one of those like, yeah, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Pretty sure he's still alive because I don't remember having

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Speaker 2: a party for it, and I will have a party

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Speaker 2: when all the North dies. So we were talking about

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Speaker 2: why why the laws allow for these kinds of facilities,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, a lot of it has its roots in

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Speaker 2: kind of desegregation. This fear over communism and the whole

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Speaker 2: religious right gets birthed in the seventies over what might

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Speaker 2: euphemistically be called a question of school choice. Right, they're

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Speaker 2: angry at like integration of Bob Jones University. Right, there's

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Speaker 2: going to be black people at our private school. And

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Speaker 2: an idea kind of starts to spread in American society

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Speaker 2: as the religious right gains more power, that parents are

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Speaker 2: having their rights infringed upon by the existence of a

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Speaker 2: society that might at some point expose those children to

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Speaker 2: attitudes and ideas they're parents dislike. This is low key

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Speaker 2: one of the most dangerous things in this country right now.

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Speaker 3: The parents' rights movement is very familiar.

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Speaker 2: Yes. In an explainer for the AP News Brooks Schultz

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Speaker 2: rights quote. In nineteen seventy two, the US Supreme Court

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Speaker 2: cited parental rights when it allowed Amish families to exempt

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Speaker 2: their children from high school in Wisconsin v. Yoder. The

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Speaker 2: court acknowledged that it was an exceptional case since the

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Speaker 2: Amish lived separately and self sufficiently, said Joshua Weishert, a

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Speaker 2: lawyer and professor at West Virginia University, and lawsuits stretching

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Speaker 2: back to the nineteen twenties, courts have affirmed the rights

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Speaker 2: of parents to direct their children's education, but they have

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Speaker 2: emphasized that there's a balance to be struck with the

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Speaker 2: state's obligation to protect children's welfare. Now, recognizing the obligation

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you actually act as if there is

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Speaker 2: any obligation. And one of the things that has resulted

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Speaker 2: from this is you've had states like Utah establish what

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Speaker 2: are like very permissive parental rights regimes, right, And as

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Speaker 2: I noted last episode, that's why there's such a like

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Speaker 2: that's why all these facilities are located there. There's other

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Speaker 2: states where kids have more protection if their parents are

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Speaker 2: crazy assholes who want to send them to an abuse camp.

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Speaker 2: But if you get those kids across the border and

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Speaker 2: down into Utah, they have no rights anymore. Right, the

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Speaker 2: parents can do literally anything to them, because there's this

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Speaker 2: idea that like, well, you know, particularly this faith based

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Speaker 2: idea that like the parent ought to be absolutely sovereign

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Speaker 2: to the child, which right, like ye is bad.

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Speaker 3: It's I mean, that is a Christian thing, anna Mormon

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Speaker 3: thing of the hierarchy of you know, there's God, then

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Speaker 3: there's the father, then there's the mother, then there is

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Speaker 3: the children, and and it you know, it is like

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Speaker 3: they are right below, like the hierarchy is reinforced at

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Speaker 3: every time, at every turn.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I'll admit this is a complicated thing to figure

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Speaker 2: out as a society because, like, I don't think the

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Speaker 2: solution is the state has absolute power over the lives

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Speaker 2: of children, because that's not great.

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Speaker 3: They're necessari historically that is not sure, that.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't end well. But also kids, kids are children. They're

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Speaker 2: not absolutely they're not capable of like having absolute sovereignty

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Speaker 2: over their own lives, like immediately. I think there's probably

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Speaker 2: probably the best you can do is kind of a

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Speaker 2: sliding scale, and you know, try to make sure that

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Speaker 2: there are like human rights protections that make it impossible

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Speaker 2: to force certain things on kids. Ever, no matter what,

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Speaker 2: it's really not an easy.

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Speaker 3: If you talk to anybody who's who's like ever worked

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Speaker 3: with CPS, they'll you know, you can just see like

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Speaker 3: the exhaustion in their eyes when they talk about it,

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Speaker 3: because they're like, yeah, it's a really hard line. It's

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Speaker 3: a very difficult thing to do, very very difficult. And

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Speaker 3: there's certain things like I know in some states, like

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Speaker 3: if a parent leaves marks on their child, like that's

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Speaker 3: enough to prosecute them. And then there's other states where

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Speaker 3: it's like, no, beat your kids as much as you want,

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Speaker 3: like they are your children. You know, you can do

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Speaker 3: whatever or even have you know, have somebody else beat

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Speaker 3: your kids. And it's not that big of a deal.

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Speaker 2: And I think, you know, as we acknowledge that, it's

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Speaker 2: kind of messy to try to figure out where exactly

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Speaker 2: the line should be. The line certainly shouldn't be where

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Speaker 2: Steve Cartizano puts it, right where you can pay to

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Speaker 2: have your kids subducted and starved in the desert. And

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Speaker 2: what's justifying all of these extreme adventures again is like

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Speaker 2: drug use, right, the fact that drug use is so

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Speaker 2: fucking scary and concerned parents have become the most powerful

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Speaker 2: voting block in the country, Like both liberal and conservative

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Speaker 2: parents in the late eight you know, in the eighties

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Speaker 2: and then in the nineties, all have to be anti

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Speaker 2: drug all have to talk about it like as opposed

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Speaker 2: to well, you know, this is a thing that carries

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Speaker 2: some dangers to kids, and we should make sure that

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Speaker 2: they're informed about it. And you know, there should be

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Speaker 2: a great of awareness and society about this. No, no,

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Speaker 2: this is like going to ruin entire generations, and anything

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Speaker 2: we do is justified in stopping this scourge. Steve Cartesano

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Speaker 2: rides that wave.

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Speaker 3: I know that like people who claim to have been

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Speaker 3: hippies back in the day, like.

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Speaker 2: That is you motherfuckers smoked pot once.

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Speaker 3: Well that's the thing. Yeah, it's a much smaller percentage

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Speaker 3: than we think. You know, it's a much smaller percentage

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Speaker 3: than we think. But it happened to enough people, and

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Speaker 3: enough people knew people who you know, smoked weed and

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Speaker 3: you know, like dropped acid to know that these people

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Speaker 3: did not end up, you know, murdering people, and you know,

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Speaker 3: and you know heroin addicts, Like you would think that

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Speaker 3: people in the eighties and nineties who had lived through

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Speaker 3: the sixties and seventies would, at least if I had

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Speaker 3: not smoked a lot of weed themselves, known somebody there

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Speaker 3: like known people who did I.

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Speaker 2: Think the two things that really amped this up to

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Speaker 2: a massive degree are number one, like, heroin gets a

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Speaker 2: lot more common, and heroin is a drug that if

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Speaker 2: you fuck up on heroin, the consequences are more severe

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Speaker 2: than smoking too much weed or even generally drinking too much. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: drinking too much can be deadly, but it's a lot

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Speaker 2: the lyne you got a lot more wiggle room with

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Speaker 2: drinking when you do with fucking horse. And the other thing,

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Speaker 2: probably the bigger thing is the AIDS epidemic, right, which

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Speaker 2: is tied to drug use, particularly intravene to drug use,

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Speaker 2: and kind of it does help make the case to

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Speaker 2: these parents that like, well, anything that sets you on

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Speaker 2: a road that ends in heroin is like you're going

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Speaker 2: to die, right, so we have to intervene early on.

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Speaker 3: And probably crack as well, which is.

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Speaker 2: Also yeah, cras is also a massive part of this.

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Speaker 3: And has a very racialized component. Yeah, so yeah, because.

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Speaker 2: That's probably yeah, probably that's less of a factor in

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Speaker 2: these rich kids parents being concerned just because of like

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Speaker 2: where crack is. Like, although cope is probably anyway whatever,

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Speaker 2: we don't need to get too much into it. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's so, that's that's kind of the stakes that are

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Speaker 2: being set up, And it's important to understand where the

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Speaker 2: stakes are because the thing parents are letting their kids

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Speaker 2: like happen to their kids are insane. So once local

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Speaker 2: law enforcement starts getting involved, kids start escaping the camp

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Speaker 2: and like showing up in town or showing up at

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Speaker 2: the police station, like battered and bruised or in some

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Speaker 2: cases are taken to their parents after they're like let out,

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Speaker 2: and so doctors start looking over these kids. In one case,

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Speaker 2: a doctor counted more than eighty scars, marks, and contusions

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Speaker 2: on the body of a single teenager. Another former student

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Speaker 2: told the police that they had been dragged through the

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Speaker 2: desert by instructors and then tied to trees as a

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Speaker 2: punishment for not wanting to hike like insane shit, you know,

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Speaker 2: like not even like tough love stuff, like just actual torture.

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Speaker 2: As legal issues mounted, Steve seems to have mostly fucked

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Speaker 2: off to spend the company's money on stupid shit. Frustration

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Speaker 2: over this eventually led to one of his top employees,

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Speaker 2: admissions director Gail Palmer, to quit and start Summit Quest, Inc.

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Speaker 2: Which is just a copycat of Challenger without all the baggage. Right,

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Speaker 2: but she is basically doing it. It's a sixty three

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Speaker 2: day course just like Challenger, and the business plan is

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Speaker 2: the same. This time ales going to run it, and

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Speaker 2: she's going to hire some fucking drifters and give them

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Speaker 2: a bunch of troubled kids and leaving them in the

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Speaker 2: desert for two months. Right, And I want to quote

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Speaker 2: again from John Krakouur, writing for Outside magazine. Five students

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Speaker 2: were enrolled in the inaugural Summit Quest course, which cost

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Speaker 2: thirteen thousand dollars for sixty three days. Palmer sent the

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Speaker 2: group to the arid Schiwitz Plateau near the north rim

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Speaker 2: of the Grand Canyon, supervised by two young counselors who

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Speaker 2: were paid minimum wage. During the first several days, Michelle Sutton,

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Speaker 2: a pretty fifteen year old who had enrolled voluntarily to

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Speaker 2: regain self esteem after an alleged date rape, complained repeatedly

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Speaker 2: of exhaustion, sunburn, and nausea. As the group hiked through

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Speaker 2: the desert. She vomited up most of the water she

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Speaker 2: tried to drink, and pleaded that she could not go on.

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Speaker 2: According to councilor's field reports gathered by state and federal investigators,

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Speaker 2: the lead counselor had been ordered to ignore such talk

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Speaker 2: as manipulative behavior. You have been slapping off, she told Sutton.

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Speaker 2: You are now being warned now a couple of things

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Speaker 2: are going on there. One of them, probably the bleakest

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Speaker 2: part of this is that, like Sutton was not sent

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Speaker 2: here by her parents or against her own will, she

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00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:11,840
Speaker 2: was raped and thought this program might be therapeutic for her. Right,

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Speaker 2: And this gets to what we've been talking about. These

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Speaker 2: counselors who don't know what they're doing, who have no education,

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Speaker 2: just treat every kid the same and the way they

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Speaker 2: are trained. And this is Steve's training, right. Everything in

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Speaker 2: this course has been stolen from Steve's program. Steve's program

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Speaker 2: teaches anytime kids complain or say that they are physically

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable or ill, they are trying to manipulate you. Well,

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Speaker 2: that's like the.

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Speaker 3: That's like the yeah, they they all of these things.

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Speaker 3: They always say children are incredibly manipulative. You know, teenagers

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Speaker 3: are incredibly manipulative, and like some are, but teenagers don't.

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Speaker 3: Manipulation usually requires some kind of foresight. It's also like

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Speaker 3: and you kidders are known for that.

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Speaker 2: It's like when people say babies are manipulative, right, because

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Speaker 2: a baby will like modulate how cries or whatnot in

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Speaker 2: order to get certain kinds of attention. You can call

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Speaker 2: it manipulative, or you can say like they have needs

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00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,880
Speaker 2: and try to fill those beads, like the teenager who

365
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Speaker 2: is dehydrated and needs medical attention.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so when you like, like I got heat exhaustion,

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Speaker 3: last year on my birthday because because I'm a late

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Speaker 3: July baby and I was stupid and decided to have

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Speaker 3: a party outside and many such cases, we all got

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Speaker 3: heat exhaustion and I was the next day. I felt

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Speaker 3: like I was going to throw up all day long.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, if you feel like you're going to throw

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Speaker 3: up after heat like that is when shit is really

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Speaker 3: serious and you really need to Yeah, you need medical

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Speaker 3: attention right away.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you need to immediately start pounding the hottest coffee

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Speaker 2: that you can get and ideally just get on a

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Speaker 2: treadmill and sprint through it. You know, that's what's going

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Speaker 2: to help.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, when you when you can't see anymore, then you know,

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Speaker 3: that's when.

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Speaker 2: You know that, that's when you're better.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. But yeah, when you're bombing up.

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Speaker 2: Water, that's that's a horrible side. Get to medical care.

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Speaker 3: And the thing is, these these there are probably people

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Speaker 3: who were like, oh, yeah, this would be good for me,

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Speaker 3: Like I remember reading about like Harard bound and being

388
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Speaker 3: like this could toughen me up.

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Speaker 2: A real program, Michelle might have a real program with

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Speaker 2: responsible counselors who were not pushing kids too much and

391
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Speaker 2: understood medically, you know, wilderness first aid could have been

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Speaker 2: helpful to her.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it could have been empowering to somebody who'd been

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Speaker 3: through the sexual assault.

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Speaker 2: If she thought I might I think I might benefit

396
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Speaker 2: from this. It probably is something that might have benefited her.

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Speaker 2: It's just the people, the adults that you know. For

398
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Speaker 2: one thing, there was no kind of licensure for these programs,

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Speaker 2: not really, there was no kind of like state board

400
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 2: that was actually looking into any of this. So Michelle

401
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,679
Speaker 2: when she started looking for programs, had no way of

402
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 2: knowing who is legitimate.

403
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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, what's like the summer camp program? You know,

404
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 3: what's like a therapeutic program, and that that's the thing.

405
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 3: A lot of these as therapy.

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00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, and that, Yeah, that's exactly what happened, right,

407
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,120
Speaker 2: And you know, none of because she the fucking palmer

408
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 2: who again is trained by fucking Steve, just brought in

409
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,480
Speaker 2: minimum wage people who like, did not understand anything about

410
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 2: wilderness survival. They miss that she has the symptoms of

411
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Speaker 2: heat stroke and dehydration. And if you ignore those symptoms

412
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Speaker 2: and force someone to do an arduous mountain trek, there's

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Speaker 2: a good chance they're going to die. And that is

414
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 2: exactly what happened to fifteen year old Michelle Mo. Yeah,

415
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 2: it's a it's fucked. Palmer alleged that Sudden, who remember,

416
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 2: was in this program voluntarily after being assaulted, had died

417
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,119
Speaker 2: not because of dehydration and heat exhaustion, but due to

418
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 2: a drug overdose. Right, Palmer didn't even do the work

419
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,479
Speaker 2: to know why this kid was there. She was like

420
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Speaker 2: a kid in my program. I'll just say she was

421
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 2: a drug addict, right, Like, it's so vile. It's vile

422
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 2: and lazy.

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Speaker 3: It also doesn't make any sense because don't they exam

424
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Speaker 3: in them to make sure check.

425
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Speaker 2: How did she get drugs?

426
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Speaker 3: Yeah?

427
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,119
Speaker 2: Did you let her get drugs out there? How is

428
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 2: that happening? Yeah, that doesn't make you better. You realize

429
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 2: that doesn't make it better. If she got access to.

430
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Speaker 3: Drugs out here, that's even worse.

431
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:20,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Now, obviously there's an actual coroner's inquest here

432
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Speaker 2: and a doctor confirms that she did not die of

433
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 2: drug overdose. There are no drugs in her system. She

434
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 2: died due to dehydration. Given Palmer's this becomes a big

435
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 2: media story. Right, Michelle is fifteen. You know her parents

436
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 2: are very vocal. This actually like number one it destroys

437
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 2: Palmer's program. But it finally, for the first time, these programs,

438
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 2: a lot of which had proliferated as a result of

439
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: Challenger's success, get some scrutiny, right, and as a result,

440
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,640
Speaker 2: the media reaches out to Steve Cartesano and to be like, Hey,

441
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 2: seems like this lady basically just does exactly what you

442
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 2: do and a kid died. Is there a danger a

443
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,360
Speaker 2: kid's going to die in your program? And Steve told

444
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 2: them a Challenger, a tragedy like the one that killed

445
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 2: Michelle Sutton could never happen. You want to guess what

446
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 2: happened six weeks later? Oh my god, exactly, like literally

447
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 2: two months later, something like that. On June twenty third,

448
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety, Kristin Chase enrolled at Challenger, And in this sentence,

449
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 2: the mean the word enrolled means that she was taken

450
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 2: in the dead of night by Challenger employees and driven

451
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 2: from Florida to southern Utah. Kristin had been enrolled in

452
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 2: the program by her mother, who, like most of these parents,

453
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 2: thought her daughter was in danger and needed the tough

454
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 2: love of a boot camp to set her on the

455
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 2: right path. I think her parents are separated because her father, Ronald,

456
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 2: claims he was not informed that Kristin had been forced

457
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 2: into the program right Ronald was, like, I knew she

458
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 2: was in the program. I thought this was something kind

459
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 2: of like Michelle, that she wanted to do, which is

460
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 2: not the case. So as soon as she arrives, the

461
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 2: first thing they do is they starve kids. Right for

462
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 2: the first two days that you're hiking, you don't eat

463
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,479
Speaker 2: any food. Right now, In addition to the fact that

464
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 2: she is being starved, Kristen grows up at life. Has

465
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 2: lived your whole life at sea level, and these are

466
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 2: like seven thousand feet or more elevation mountains they're hiking in.

467
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 3: Oh, so you're supposed to up.

468
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 2: That'll fuck you up hard if you don't acclimate there. Again,

469
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 2: if you know, if you understand anything about the medicine

470
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 2: behind this, there are ways to responsibly acclimatize people to

471
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 2: that environment.

472
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 3: No, that's because Yeah, when I went when I went

473
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 3: to my you know, hippie boarding school, we were on

474
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 3: a hill that was I think about six thousand you know,

475
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 3: we were up in the mountains, and yeah, I was

476
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 3: always a little fucked up. Yeah, the first day back

477
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 3: from vacation and a little fucked up coming back down

478
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 3: to sea level, you know, with my parents in you know,

479
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 3: the valley in LA. Like, you need time, and you

480
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 3: need you need electrolytes, and you need to be very

481
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 3: careful about what you eat.

482
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 2: And walking start for two days exactly.

483
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 3: Walking is exhausting. Walking, just walking is exhausting at that altitude.

484
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. A lawsuit from her father later noted that quote.

485
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: Her medical history, forwarded Challenger by her mother, indicated that

486
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 2: Kristin suffered from bouts of coughing up blood, stomach pain,

487
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 2: urinary burning and frequency difficulty, running, minstreul difficulty, and a

488
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 2: knee injury. So in addition, if I am and I'm

489
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 2: not an expert on any of this, but I have

490
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: some training in wilderness first aid. If I am doing,

491
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 2: if I am working for an organization like this and

492
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 2: a kid with this medical history wants to do a

493
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 2: sixty three, I'm not letting them in. I'm sorry. If

494
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 2: you cough up blood regularly, and like, we don't really

495
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 2: have a clear idea as to why you are not

496
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 2: spending two months out in the desert in my wilderness program.

497
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 2: That doesn't seem responsible, you know, But they don't care

498
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 2: over a challenger. They're like, come on, cough up blood

499
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 2: here in the mountains. It'll be good for you. So

500
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 2: Horsehair and the other counselors force her to do a

501
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 2: six thousand foot elevation hike. The day that she arrives again,

502
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 2: they deprive her of food. Next from a write up

503
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 2: indserret dot com quote. Despite being upset, frightened, and ill,

504
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 2: Kristin was forced to participate in four to five min

505
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 2: hikes each day in temperatures exceeding ninety five degrees. She

506
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 2: was not given a proper physical exam or any conditioning

507
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 2: activities prior to the hikes. The day before she died,

508
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 2: Kristin Chase fell several times on one of the hikes,

509
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 2: experienced knee pain, and showed symptoms of heat exhaustion of

510
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 2: the evening prior to her death, Kristen told one of

511
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 2: the challenger counselors that she was afraid of dying. In

512
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 2: the program, a counselor wrote on an evaluation form, Kristen's

513
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: number one short term goal is to get out of

514
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 2: here safe and alive, the suit says, and maybe as

515
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 2: the employee, you shouldn't be working for a company. For lack. Well,

516
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 2: this kid's goal is not to die here. I wonder

517
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: if if we're handling health and safety properly.

518
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's yeah, some implications there.

519
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just incredibly bleak like this this, I mean,

520
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: this poor girl is like murdered by negligence.

521
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,479
Speaker 3: Well but you know, oh sorry, is this a time

522
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 3: for a break?

523
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: It's time for an AD break. That's right, terrible time

524
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 2: for an AD break.

525
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, I was just going to say

526
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 3: quickly that the thing that is like with my head

527
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 3: is that I knew people who went to these places

528
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: more than ten years later.

529
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, still the same, Still the same. Yeah, yep, speaking

530
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 2: of which, are ads the same as they ever were?

531
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 2: We're back? Uh Okay. So on June twenty seventh, Kristen

532
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: was made to do another five mile hike. She started

533
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: showing symptoms of heat exhaustion and eventually collapsed on the trail.

534
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: Despite the fact that she had stopped breathing, Challenger employees

535
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 2: did not call for a care Flight helicopter to come

536
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: in and rescue her. I don't know if it was

537
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: literally the company CareFlight, but there's a company that did,

538
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 2: Like you could like radio them and they would do

539
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 2: emergency airlifts, right, which, if you are doing a service

540
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 2: like this, if you're like a wilderness course like this,

541
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: you want to have a contract with someone who can

542
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 2: fly in no matter where you were and pick up

543
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 2: an emergency case, right Like, that's part of the operating

544
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 2: a business like Challenger. Responsibly, Challenger did not have an

545
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 2: ongoing agreement with any of these services, and in fact

546
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 2: refused to call them anyway because Steve hadn't paid the

547
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 2: bill and he was in an what's described in the

548
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 2: court case as an ongoing disagreement over an unpaid bill,

549
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 2: so he had he had fucked this helicopter emergency service

550
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 2: over so he could keep renting Lamborghini's and he wouldn't

551
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: let any of his employees call them, even for an emergency.

552
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 2: So eventually Challenger, instead of getting an actual medical helicopter in,

553
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 2: they call for a tour helicopter that does like helicopter

554
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 2: tours of Bryce Canyon, which does not rease. And again

555
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: the time by the time it reaches Kristens, she is

556
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: very much dead, you know, like it's she was already

557
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 2: not like the odds were already kind of rough for her.

558
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: By the fact that she was not breathing in in

559
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: the wilderness, but the fact that it takes hours for

560
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: a chopper to arrive, you know. In the immediate wake

561
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 2: of the disaster, Steve Cartersano started doing cable TV appearances

562
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: where he claimed that Chase's death had nothing to do

563
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: with the Challenger program. And I'm going to quote again

564
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 2: from Desert News. She hadn't yet begun the sixty three

565
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 2: day expedition and was on a four and a half

566
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 2: mile day hike to explore some nearby caves and arches

567
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: when she died. She could have walked over to Central

568
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: Park and collapsed. Cardasano said on the Jane Wallace Show

569
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 2: on the Lifetime TV channel. Her death, though heartrending, has

570
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: not caused him to reevaluate his program. We've had too

571
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: much success, Cartizano said, pointing out that over seven hundred

572
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: and fifty youths have completed the program. Now there's a

573
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 2: lot that's bad about that. For one thing, they had

574
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: absolutely started the sixty three day expedition, there were days

575
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: into it, and she had been forced to continue hiking

576
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 2: despite repeatedly complaining that she was in physical distress. This

577
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 2: is not a walking to I don't know. Maybe you've

578
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 2: taken some hardcore hikes over to Central Park, but this

579
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: is not like walking around in the park in the

580
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: middle of the city now. Surprisingly, Kristen's mother is one

581
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 2: of the people who came out to support the Challenger

582
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: team and Steve, even though they had killed her daughter.

583
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 2: She told her reporter, what we did for our daughter

584
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: was the best thing we ever we could have ever done.

585
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 2: We felt this was the answer. I truly feel it

586
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: would have been if she'd been able to complete it.

587
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 2: It was not the you killed her. It wasn't the

588
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: best thing you could have done. Because she died.

589
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess she just probably needed to. Yeah,

590
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 3: I don't know, like you need to justify the horrible

591
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 3: things that happen.

592
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 2: It's such an I don't know if I feel like

593
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: it's such a fucking American response, like particularly like middle

594
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 2: class conservative response, like I am not responsible for anything

595
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: bad that happens. It is the world doing the wrong thing.

596
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 2: Even if I do something that's like dangerous and on

597
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,479
Speaker 2: its face like reckless and on its face something that

598
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 2: like any responsible person could have told me was a

599
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 2: dangerous thing to do, I felt it was the right

600
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 2: thing to do, which means it must have been and

601
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: so the fact that it ended badly like can't be

602
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 2: my fault. Right, it's this complete refusal to take any

603
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 2: It's fucking a rack. It's a rack war syndrome, right, Like,

604
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 2: it's this it should have worked, like fuck you people, Yeah.

605
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 3: It's it's really I mean, what makes what I wonder

606
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 3: is how, like how did they they get like these

607
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 3: people on shows that were like, oh, the program worked

608
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 3: for me. Where the fuck did they find those people?

609
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 3: Is what I'm wondering about, because.

610
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: I mean, there was probably incentive programs together.

611
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: There's definitely incentives. I think there may have been a

612
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 2: degree of like money getting like who knows what Steve

613
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: was doing behind the scenes with these people, but also

614
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: some number of people of kids probably did feel like

615
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:55,959
Speaker 2: the program helped, right.

616
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: There was especially there was a different Netflix documentary, I

617
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: forget the name of it, but one of the things

618
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: that they talked about was that that there was like

619
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: specific parent incentive programs for recruiting and recruiting parents to

620
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: send their children to places and to spread good word

621
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: and speak highly about it. That was a thing that happened.

622
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: And you also you have within these programs. You've got

623
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: a bunch of kids, they're kind of hierarchies within the kids.

624
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 2: Some of those kids you just have like helping out.

625
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 2: You give them extra privileges and whatnot, and they kind

626
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 2: of you're kind of almost in a lot of cases,

627
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: weaponizing the kids who are the biggest bullies, right, having

628
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: them bully the other kids to keep them in line,

629
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: and maybe those kids wind up feeling like, well, I

630
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 2: have a lot of power and agency in this situation

631
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: that I don't back at home. So it is a

632
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 2: positive experience because they're getting to be shitty to some

633
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: of the other kids, right. A variety of things are

634
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: happening here. But like he's it's the I think part

635
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 2: of the one of the villains here is like the

636
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 2: willingness of daytime TV to like, well, we're never going

637
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: to actually do any research on how these programs should

638
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 2: operate or how they do operate. But this charismatic guy

639
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: stee have him and a couple of teenagers on, you know,

640
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 2: like we'll talk to them about this thing and effectively

641
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 2: give him free advertising, which is kind of all TV

642
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 2: ever does in these cases.

643
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 3: I think that there's also like I know that there's

644
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 3: the like the cash for Kids thing, and I knew

645
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 3: I knew a girl who almost ended up in one

646
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 3: of these programs, but because a psychiatrist suggested to her

647
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 3: father that she should go and after that, this girl

648
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 3: was somebody with a lot of issues, but she refused

649
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 3: to go to a psychiatrist after that because she was

650
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: so afraid that one would try to send her away.

651
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 2: Of course. Yeah, it's it's shited like the there's that

652
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: fucking CIA program in Pakistan where they like pretended to

653
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 2: be vaccinating people in order to like blood test them

654
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: to try and find ben laden And it's like, well,

655
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: when you do shit like that, Yeah, people are gonna

656
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: think vaccines they're a scam.

657
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, people aren't going to think. Yeah, people aren't going

658
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 3: to be particularly happy.

659
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 2: Thanks the CIA. Yeah, so I know, I want to know.

660
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 2: We just talked about Sharon, who I do not like

661
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 2: very much, being like, this really was the best thing

662
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 2: for my I know she died, but it's the best

663
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 2: thing for my daughter. I gotta say, I don't know

664
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 2: much about her relationship with her former husband, Ronald, but

665
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: I'm gonna guess he was in the right side of

666
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 2: that breakup because when he finds out about this, he

667
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 2: was like, what the fuck did you do? You sent

668
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: our daughter to die in the desert, and now you're

669
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 2: defending the people who got her killed on television. So

670
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 2: one of the things that came out as a result

671
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: of all this is that she had not told him

672
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: and she shared custody with him, that she had had

673
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 2: their daughter kidnapped, that she was not there willingly. Ronald

674
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: gets very angry about all this, and he is made

675
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 2: by a court the representative of his daughter's estate by

676
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 2: a state judge, and in this capacity, he sues the

677
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 2: ever loving shit out of the Challenger program. Cardesano is

678
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 2: charged with eight counts of child abuse and a misdemeanor

679
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,959
Speaker 2: for his involvement in Chase's death. Now, the good news

680
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 2: is that, like Chase does win a bunch of money

681
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 2: as a result of this lawsuit. The bad news is

682
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 2: that Cardasano does not wind up with any criminal convictions

683
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 2: because they fuck up the case. Like there's like a

684
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: weirdly shitty judge due to like a series of like

685
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 2: like at one point in the court, like the first

686
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 2: time they try they try this case, it gets thrown

687
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: out because the judge forgets to read the charges to

688
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 2: the jury at the onset of the trial. There are

689
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 2: a couple of more things like that, and Cardasano is

690
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: eventually acquitted, but his company winds up more than a

691
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 2: million dollars in debt and he has to file for

692
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: Chapter eleven. Several more lawsuits follow from other children after this,

693
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: all of which are settled out of court. By the

694
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: end of nineteen ninety three, Cardasano is banned from ever

695
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 2: running a similar program in the state of Utah again.

696
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: So that's good, you know, Steve Cartersano, he's out of

697
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 2: the picture. He's surely not going to come back later

698
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 2: in this story running a series of of wilderness survival camps.

699
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: Let's talk about what happens in Utah after this point,

700
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 2: because the fact that Utah has gone after Cartisano to

701
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 2: some extent doesn't mean that they have any interest in

702
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 2: regulating what has become a multimillion dollar industry in the state.

703
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 2: When local and national media covered Kristen's death, they needed

704
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 2: an expert to reach out to and to get quotes

705
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 2: about what had gone wrong in Steve's program. Many of

706
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 2: them picked Larry Olsen, who, despite the negligent deaths of

707
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: two students in his programs, was still held up as

708
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 2: the good guy of the wilderness therapy industry. In an

709
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,240
Speaker 2: interview with the Salt Lake Tribune, he displayed particular disgust

710
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 2: for Steve's boot camp model. You don't treat them like maggots.

711
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 2: You treat them like human beings, which is a good

712
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 2: thing to be said. I just don't trust you at all, Larry. Now,

713
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: whenever something terrible happens in a program like Challenger, there's

714
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: an urge in the media to minimize issues in the

715
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 2: rest of the industry, especially if that business tough love

716
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 2: care for troubled teens is one that mainstream culture just

717
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: sort of assumes is necessary. As a result, the focus

718
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 2: was on how Challenger was a proly run program and

719
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 2: not the idea that the whole concept might be a

720
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 2: bad idea. Right. Two former Challenger employees, Bill Henry and

721
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 2: Lance Jagger are man Horsehair had testify against Steve at

722
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 2: exchange for immunity from prosecution. Can you believe Horsehair rolled

723
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 2: on Horsehair? You fucked over, Steve Montana? How could you so?

724
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 2: Horsehair and his buddy Bill are still clear to operate

725
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 2: a wilderness rehab survival camp thing in Utah, and now

726
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,879
Speaker 2: there's an opening in the market because Challenger is no

727
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 2: longer accepting anybody. And so in nineteen ninety two they

728
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: launch a company, north Star Expeditions. That's a nice name,

729
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 2: makes it sound very adventurous.

730
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,760
Speaker 3: It sounds like a cruise. That like it does.

731
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like Yeah, it does sound like a cruise.

732
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: Given that the company was owned and operated by men's

733
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: trained by Steve Cartesano, who had played a direct role

734
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 2: in the death of christ and Chase, you probably won't

735
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 2: be surprised to hear that they almost immediately got another

736
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 2: child killed. In early March nineteen ninety four, about a

737
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 2: year after they start doing this, Aaron Bacon enrolled in

738
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 2: North Stars again, sixty three day wilderness program. They all

739
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 2: are the same length. Bacon is one of these kids

740
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: who had been a good student most of his academic career,

741
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,720
Speaker 2: but got into pot in his sophomore year and started

742
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 2: missing classes. In February, he was in a fight with

743
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 2: some kids. In the local news reports that came out

744
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 2: after this, Alta said he was in a fight with

745
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 2: the crips, and I don't know if he was in

746
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 2: a fight with the real crips or there were some

747
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 2: other kids in his school calling themselves the crips, which

748
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 2: I think is likelear.

749
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 3: That's like every time people talk about gangs, it's like,

750
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 3: are you guys talking about organized crime or are you

751
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 3: talking about like a group of kids that we know.

752
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 2: We definitely had some kids in my middle school who

753
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: called themselves bloods, and I do not think they were

754
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 2: affiliated with the criminal organization.

755
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 3: But yeah, you have these like you have these like

756
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 3: thirteen year olds who will like in LA who will

757
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 3: tag like m S thirteen on something. Yeah, it's like, yeah,

758
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 3: you guys, you're not MS thirteen tagging that on a locker. Yeah.

759
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a big part of their operation. Oh yeah,

760
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 2: that's if you want to move some serious crystal, you

761
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 2: got to have lockers in every state. Oh yeah. So

762
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 2: his parents get convinced that he is in a downward

763
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 2: spiral that's going to lead with him murder, end with

764
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 2: him murdered in a gang war. Now. In his article

765
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 2: for Outside, John Krakauer describes how Aaron Bacon's mom found

766
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 2: out about north Star. Students at north Star learned that

767
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 2: mother Nature does not make exceptions, explained the outfits brochure

768
00:39:55,560 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 2: they learned responsibility, self disciplined motivation. Tuition was thirteen zo

769
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 2: nine hundred dollars for a sixty three day course, plus

770
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: another seven seventy five to have erin forcibly escorted to Escalante,

771
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 2: something north Star strongly recommended Bob's architecture firm. That's his dad,

772
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 2: once prosperous, had lately been teetering on the brink of insolvency,

773
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 2: and the Bacons no longer had that kind of cash. But,

774
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 2: says Sally, his mom, after talking to several parents whose

775
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 2: kids have been helped by the program, we were given

776
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 2: a lot of hope that north Star was going to

777
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: build Aaron's self esteem. I knew it would be rigorous,

778
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 2: but I pictured him out there with God and nature,

779
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 2: hiking all day, discussing his issues with therapists around the

780
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 2: count fire at night. Just a totally fanciful idea of

781
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 2: what was actually going on here. None of these counselors

782
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: are therapists. None of them have relevant training in this.

783
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 2: They're not even like any kind of teacher. Now it's

784
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 2: unclear to me do Sally and Bob know that, But

785
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: they are aware of some of this, because several days

786
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,919
Speaker 2: into his time with north Star. Aaron sends a letter

787
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 2: back to his parents and writes, I'm trying to work

788
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,919
Speaker 2: this program as well as I can, but I can't

789
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,439
Speaker 2: believe you want me believing this stuff. I've been told

790
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 2: that all therapists, counselors, psychologists, and psychiatrists are quacks. I've

791
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 2: been lectured on the stupidity of believing in them. I

792
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 2: miss you, mom and dad. And maybe that's a side

793
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 2: that your kid's not going to get good therapy. Yeah,

794
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 2: at the Wilderness camp. That's teaching him that psychiatrists are liars.

795
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 2: You've got to trust only horse Hair knows how to

796
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 2: be an adult. Great stuff. So, prior to handing their

797
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 2: child off to strangers, the only concerns Bob and Sally

798
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 2: had expressed to north Star was that their son was

799
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 2: very thin, and they worried that he wouldn't be provided

800
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: enough food. Our old, pale horse Hair assured them he

801
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 2: would never let a student lose weight during one of

802
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 2: their one of their sessions. For three weeks after Aaron

803
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: was taken away in the night, his mom called regularly

804
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 2: to check up on him. She was told that her

805
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 2: son was a whiner, lingering pretending to be sick and

806
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 2: doing so badly at the program that they might have

807
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 2: no choice but to have him repeat it kids. The

808
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: counselor said, we're angry at Aaron for slowing them down. Now,

809
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 2: the reality of what's happening here is that for the

810
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 2: first two days that they're on these hikes, Aaron and

811
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 2: his classmates are starved. North Star claimed that this was

812
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 2: to cleanse the toxins out of them. Aaron, very thin,

813
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 2: already hiking and not eating, grew very quickly ill. Then

814
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 2: he fell and injured himself badly enough that a week

815
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 2: or so in he was unable to hike with his

816
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 2: backpack and left it behind. His counselors were like, well,

817
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 2: you left your backpack behind, that's where your food was.

818
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 2: You don't get to eat now. So he spends another

819
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 2: two days without food. He gets even sicker. Because he

820
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 2: was clearly ill and slow. He became the subject of mockery,

821
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 2: with counselors calling him homosexual and in one case taking

822
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 2: his sleeping bag away as punishment. In a letter to

823
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 2: his parents, Aaron wrote, I feel like I am losing

824
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 2: control of my body. I've peed my pants every night

825
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: for the past three nights and tonight when we started

826
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 2: our little hike, I took a dump in my pants.

827
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 2: I didn't even feel it coming, It just happened. All

828
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 2: the other students started a I've been telling the staff

829
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 2: that I'm sick for a while, and they say I'm

830
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 2: faking it now again. If you were to tell those

831
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 2: symptoms to anyone with fairly minimal medical training, those are

832
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 2: signs of serious illness. Right. When a theoretically healthy young

833
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 2: teenager loses control of their bladder and bowels during extreme

834
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 2: physical exertion, that means something is very wrong and you

835
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 2: need to get them to a hospital immediately. Right, nothing

836
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 2: is done. On March thirtieth, three weeks into his trek,

837
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 2: Aaron's mom called the school, which warned her that he

838
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: might need to repeat the program because he was doing

839
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 2: so badly. The next day, they called to inform her

840
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 2: that her son was dead due to a perforated ulcer

841
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 2: that leaped through his small intestine and cause a massive

842
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 2: fatal infection. North Starr insisted they had done nothing wrong.

843
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 2: Aaron had just been sick, the ulcer had been there anyway,

844
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 2: nothing they did could have prevented his death. But then

845
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 2: Sally saw her son's body. Here's how she described it. Quote.

846
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 2: His legs were like toothpicks, his hip bones stuck way

847
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 2: out his ribs. He looked like again, a concentration camp victim.

848
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 2: There were bruises from the tip of his toes to

849
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: the top of his head, open source, up and down

850
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: the inside of his thighs. The only way we were

851
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 2: even able to recognize him was a childhood scar above

852
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: his right eye. Jesus, Yeah, yeah, it seems like a

853
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 2: good time to go to ads and we're back. So

854
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 2: that's fucking bleak and like adjacent to murder. I think

855
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 2: negligence this bad. Like I don't really see much of

856
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 2: a difference between this and just like killing a kid

857
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 2: right like purposefully, like.

858
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 3: It really is. I mean, I do know that, like

859
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 3: the humiliation there is is just kind of it's just

860
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 3: part of it.

861
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 2: It's a nama. That kid was in hell the last

862
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 2: days of his life exactly.

863
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're and and yeah, they do make it seem

864
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 3: like these kids are all manipulative, you know, But his.

865
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 2: Crime was he smoked weed. Great great parenting by the

866
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 2: way from Bob and Sally there. I don't want to

867
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: shit on him too much because their kid died, but

868
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 2: also you're part of the reason why. So I don't

869
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 2: really feel all that.

870
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 3: There's got to be Like, I know they must like

871
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 3: the way that they do it, because I know people

872
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 3: who had terrible parents who were sent to these programs.

873
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 3: But I also know people who had very loving, caring

874
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 3: parents who sent their kids to these programs that if

875
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 3: they knew, they never would. So I think all the

876
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 3: money in this goes into sales.

877
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, it goes into sales. It goes into like making this,

878
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 2: and and you also have the cultural inertia is with you, right,

879
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 2: the weight of well, obviously kids these days are worse

880
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 2: than they've ever been, right, which is a big thing

881
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 2: in the media. Obviously, the consequences of kids getting into

882
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 2: drugs or so dire. Obviously tough love is the only

883
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 2: thing that works. Right, Like all of these things together

884
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: that you're doing most of the ad work for these companies.

885
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 2: All they need to do is come in and say,

886
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 2: you know, we'll give your kid this kind of like

887
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 2: you would imagine hiking through the desert, you know, sharing

888
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,879
Speaker 2: wisdom with your probably will we'll kind of insinuate Native

889
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 2: American counselors. They'll learn all sorts of ancient wisdom, right,

890
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: Like that's literally how the ad campaigns work for this

891
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 2: A lot of them. The money is in like we

892
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 2: know these different native techniques for like providing therapy too, right,

893
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 2: Like there's all sorts of bullshit stacked on.

894
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 3: They there is. I think there's a religious element underneath

895
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 3: it all.

896
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 2: Yep, I think.

897
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 3: But the thing is, like I know somebody who went

898
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:54,280
Speaker 3: into this program and said that they came out believing

899
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 3: in God, but only because they felt like they had

900
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 3: to in a way, because it was like they they well, yeah,

901
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 3: it was basically they were like they were like, I

902
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 3: feel like right now the only thing that's giving me

903
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 3: hope is the idea of a God, you know, and

904
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 3: the only thing you know and so and it it

905
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 3: feels like it is like when people, some people who

906
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 3: come out of traumatic experiences lose their faith, but some

907
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 3: people they gain it because they're like God was the only,

908
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 3: you know, thing that I could think of, and I

909
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 3: was praying to God to let me go through this,

910
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 3: you know, and let me get through this alive.

911
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you need to, especially as a child. Yeah,

912
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 2: your degree of context, your understanding of like like what

913
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 2: are your your degree of power in any situation is

914
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 2: so little like that. I get how that might be

915
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,760
Speaker 2: psychologically necessary. Like some people, what's going to get you fath.

916
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,720
Speaker 3: Exactly that's what That's what's going to get them through,

917
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 3: you know. And I mean you're probably also like you

918
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 3: could you can hallucinate really easily after after the desert,

919
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 3: so probably.

920
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,720
Speaker 2: That oh yeah, that also has Yes, yes.

921
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 3: Starvation and heat exhaustion can make you see something.

922
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 2: It we'll fuck you up again, you know. That's why

923
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 2: we're offering like a you know, a special camp. We're

924
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 2: just gonna take you out into the desert until you hallucinate.

925
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 2: It's nice, it's legal. We may mix a little bit

926
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 2: of peyote into the water. It's not really peyote. I

927
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 2: got it off a Facebook, but it's got mushrooms on

928
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 2: the side of the bottle. So that's got to be

929
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 2: good enough for you, you know, in the desert with me. Yeah, exactly,

930
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 2: something will happen, and don't worry. I know what dehydration

931
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 2: looks like. So one thing you'll notice from all of

932
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 2: the stories if kids who have died in these programs

933
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 2: is that while the child who died was obviously ill

934
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 2: and in very clear need, of medical attention. They were

935
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: attacked by staff for faking it, for having a bad attitude,

936
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 2: for trying to get out of the program, for being manipulative.

937
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 2: All of this trace is back to Steve Carrsano, Remember,

938
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 2: trained all of these people and running these other facilities.

939
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 2: These all of these deaths are people linked directly to Steve.

940
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 2: In an interview earlier in his career with Challenger, Steve

941
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 2: told a reporter, we are breaking down facads. Kids come

942
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 2: in with all sorts of little ways to manipulate, with

943
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 2: a lot of anger. We physically stress them out and

944
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 2: that breaks down the facades to get to their heart.

945
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 2: So again, the training that Steve established is you have

946
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 2: to physically stress these children to break down the barriers

947
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 2: between them and healing. So really, by ignoring when this

948
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 2: kid start shitting blood in the desert, we're doing the

949
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 2: best thing for him. He's just trying to manipulate us

950
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 2: by losing control of his bowels. See why the.

951
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 3: Kids I know who did like who didn't necessarily suffer

952
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 3: physical effects from it, although I mean they all did

953
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 3: because they all were you know, lack of food and

954
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 3: lack of sleep, right, But and you know, exposure to

955
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 3: the elements, but they were all humiliated. They were made

956
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 3: to be dirt, if you know, people were made to

957
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 3: like people were forced to like be nude or like

958
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 3: pee in front of each other like what themselves as

959
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 3: punishments things like that, like you know, in addition to

960
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 3: being yelled at, But humiliation was a big one. Humiliation

961
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 3: in front of a group of people.

962
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 2: And it's the kind of thing it's it shows you

963
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 2: how it's just like the primary difference in toxicity between

964
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 2: like the programs that Larry Olsen is running, which are

965
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 2: very much imperfect, but don't do this to kid Like

966
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 2: the deaths there are, I think generally due to your responsibility,

967
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 2: but they're not torturing kids the same way. Like one

968
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 2: of the things that the on a Sazi camp that

969
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 2: he runs afterwards will do is that, like you get

970
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 2: two thousand calories a day. Now, they do have this

971
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 2: weird rule where if you like eat your food early,

972
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 2: you have to like catch animals and like forage and

973
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,399
Speaker 2: what not to like fill up the gap and you're

974
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: But none of their kids ever like starved to death,

975
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 2: so I guess they probably did it right. And I

976
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 2: think the key thing is that like aspects of that

977
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 2: were like, well, you have to manage the amount of

978
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 2: food that you have, like you're on a high for

979
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 2: a while. This is like part of learning wilderness survival.

980
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 2: If you're not pairing that with and all of the

981
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,399
Speaker 2: kids are going to yell at you and make fun

982
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,399
Speaker 2: of you, and the counselors will beat you and call

983
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 2: you gay, then it's not necessarily a bad ex as

984
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,720
Speaker 2: long as there's a certain degree of like medical training present,

985
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 2: not necessarily a bad experience, right. It could be useful

986
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 2: to learn things about, like managing calories when you're out

987
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 2: in the wild. That's not what's going on in these places.

988
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:30,320
Speaker 2: Right after Chase's death in nineteen ninety, Utah had forced

989
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 2: through its first serious regulations for wilderness therapy. Most of

990
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 2: these focused on what kids couldn't be made to do.

991
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 2: There were restrictions you can't have a kid hike up

992
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 2: with a pack that's above a certain percentage of their

993
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:44,919
Speaker 2: body weight. You have to give kids a set number

994
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 2: of calories per day. But as Krakauer noted in nineteen

995
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 2: ninety five, responsibility for enforcing these regulations fell to a

996
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 2: loan civil servant, Kin Stettler, who was supposed to monitor

997
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 2: more than one hundred youth treatment companies statewide. In practice,

998
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 2: it was impossible for him to write her it on

999
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 2: so many programs, and North Star was among those that

1000
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 2: escaped close scrutiny. Stetler devoted Mormon knew Jagger and Henry

1001
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 2: well and says that he trusted them as fellow saints implicitly.

1002
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:16,399
Speaker 2: After Bacon's death, Stetler's confidence in Jagger and Henry remained steadfast.

1003
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:19,320
Speaker 2: He quickly cleared North Star of any wrongdoing and allowed

1004
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 2: the program to stay in business, which it did for

1005
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 2: six months until the State of Utah filed criminal charges

1006
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 2: in October nineteen ninety four. So again, the guy they

1007
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,240
Speaker 2: when they decide to regulate this after two kids die,

1008
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: the guy who does it is like, well, it's Mormons

1009
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 2: running this camp. Mormons would never put a kid in danger. Oh,

1010
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 2: the kid died, must not have been their fault, you know.

1011
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 2: Thankfully the Bacon's parents make enough of a problem that

1012
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 2: the State of Utah does something, But like they almost didn't,

1013
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 2: you know. And again, yeah, it.

1014
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,280
Speaker 3: Is really I don't know the idea of like yeah,

1015
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 3: of like, well, nobody in this group would would be

1016
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 3: a bad person.

1017
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 2: Well he would never do this.

1018
00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's just it's such a strange. It's such a

1019
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 3: strange idea to me like that that well, yeah, of course,

1020
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 3: of course you wouldn't do that.

1021
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 2: It's this thing we can all. It's easy to see

1022
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,439
Speaker 2: what a bad idea that is, right when you're thinking

1023
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 2: about like, well, I'm not a Mormon. I know a

1024
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 2: lot of bad things about the church of about the

1025
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 2: Mormon church, right, Like the LDS church has a dark history.

1026
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,720
Speaker 2: Churches in general often have dark histories of child abuse.

1027
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 2: I'm not surprised that stuff like this happens. But we

1028
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 2: all have our groups where we're like, well, no one

1029
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 2: in this group whatever abuse a kid, right, That's how

1030
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 2: kids keep getting abused, Like everyone has has different groups.

1031
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 2: That that's why you always need some sort of oversight

1032
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 2: that is not the group itself making sure when you're

1033
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:46,320
Speaker 2: dealing with like organizations that take care of kids, making

1034
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 2: sure kids aren't getting molested, because there is no group

1035
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 2: that will not include some child molesters in it.

1036
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 3: No, it's it's sociology one o one. You know, everybody's

1037
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 3: always like like this is its social ties are the

1038
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:01,959
Speaker 3: most important thing, and it's why people will some people

1039
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 3: will be like, you know, I can't believe this famous

1040
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 3: person is standing with with this abuser. And it's like, well,

1041
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,359
Speaker 3: I mean, it's not a good thing that they're doing it,

1042
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 3: but probably they have close social ties with them, and

1043
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 3: it's really hard for people to cut off social ties. Sometimes.

1044
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 3: I'm not saying it's a good thing, because it's not,

1045
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 3: but it blames Yeah.

1046
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is specifically why you don't leave it

1047
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 2: up to random people. Yeah, it's why you build robust organizations.

1048
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 2: That's job is to like not take it as red

1049
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 2: that people aren't abusing kids, right, and to be an

1050
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:35,760
Speaker 2: advocate for those kids.

1051
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, people on the outside who can be objective about it,

1052
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 3: because you get this sort of like like I mean,

1053
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 3: this is and and obviously this isn't just like a

1054
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 3: Latter Day Saints thing like this is in every religion

1055
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 3: and every institution. There's some kind of old boy network.

1056
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 3: There's some kind of you know, oh well, yeah, well

1057
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 3: this guy is my friend. He would never do that.

1058
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. And yeah, when we talk about like cases of

1059
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 2: like film sets and stuff like that, especially back in

1060
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 2: the day that we're abusive to like child actors, and

1061
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 2: there's always the question of like, well, what did other

1062
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 2: actors on the set know at the time. But the

1063
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 2: bigger problem is that like, well, it shouldn't have been

1064
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:13,880
Speaker 2: up to them either, Like there should be again, professional agencies,

1065
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 2: that's job is to do this so that you're not

1066
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 2: trusting that everyone's going to like you don't. You can't

1067
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 2: just trust that everyone involved in the organization is going

1068
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,360
Speaker 2: to be the best version of themselves. You assume that

1069
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 2: there are going to be that people are going to

1070
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:30,800
Speaker 2: be cowards, you assume that people are going to be sneaky,

1071
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 2: and you build a system that does not like take

1072
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:35,800
Speaker 2: that for granted.

1073
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 3: I think, I mean, I think a lot of us

1074
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 3: who didn't have bad experiences on film sets because I

1075
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 3: mostly had good experiences on film sets, But it was

1076
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 3: because we had people in our lives, like our parents

1077
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 3: and studio teachers who always advocated for us, who always

1078
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,439
Speaker 3: made sure that we weren't doing anything unsafe, and who

1079
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:56,439
Speaker 3: would take us aside and say, hey, are you sure

1080
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 3: about this? Do you really want to be doing this?

1081
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 3: Do you feel safe about this? But obviously that's not

1082
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 3: the case everywhere, but yeah, but that's the thing. You

1083
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,319
Speaker 3: have these people who are advocating and these people who

1084
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,800
Speaker 3: are a little bit outside of this, you know, And

1085
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 3: yeah you do. You need the outside, the outside eye,

1086
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 3: the outside perspective, you need the chicks and balances.

1087
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the Boy Scouts shit, right, Like I had

1088
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 2: a great time in the Boy Scouts while a bunch

1089
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 2: of kids were getting molested, right, Like, you just can't

1090
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,439
Speaker 2: you just never, You shouldn't. You shouldn't leave it up

1091
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 2: to people who are whose expertise is not sniffing out

1092
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 2: child abuse to try and figure out if that's happening.

1093
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:37,719
Speaker 2: You know, we keep learning this, Lets schools learn this

1094
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 2: lesson all the time. You know, I can't believe this

1095
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 2: teacher was doing that. You know, they were the cool teacher. Like, well,

1096
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 2: we all had a cool teacher who was doing something

1097
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:46,959
Speaker 2: they shouldn't have been doing.

1098
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 1: Well.

1099
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 3: That's the thing, too, is when people say to me, like,

1100
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 3: so many children are abused in Hollywood, I say, yes,

1101
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 3: but children were abused also.

1102
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 2: At nearly the Catholic Church.

1103
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, the children. Well, and that's what I say to them.

1104
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 3: I say, this is not a problem that's unique to Hollywood.

1105
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 3: It's a problem that is in every institution where somebody

1106
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 3: has extreme power over anybody else. And maybe that's my

1107
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 3: anarchist street talking. But I think that it's you know,

1108
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 3: any kind of institution.

1109
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:18,919
Speaker 2: I obviously agree with you one hundred percent. I feel

1110
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 2: the same way when people obsessed. Not that it's not

1111
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 2: like the Epstein was not worth like certainly at one

1112
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 2: point when his crimes are being ignored, a lot more

1113
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 2: attention was needed, but the obsessional focus on this idea

1114
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 2: of like teenage and like child girl victims as opposed

1115
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 2: to how the vast majority of child sex trafficking looks,

1116
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 2: which is people's parents and relatives primarily doing it right

1117
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 2: and is mostly kids who were poor, and like, don't intersect.

1118
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 2: They're also the people who are abusing them are poor,

1119
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 2: and so there's not this angle of like this is

1120
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 2: the wealthy and powerful engaging in these these horrible things.

1121
00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 2: It's like, no, these are like poor adults of using

1122
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,439
Speaker 2: poor children, and like that doesn't get any kind of attention, right,

1123
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 2: and even though it's a much more common version of

1124
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 2: the problem.

1125
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think also if somebody has complete control over

1126
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 3: you and complete control over what you're doing, and you

1127
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 3: know in Hollywood it's they have complete control over your

1128
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 3: dreams and your future, you know that says something in

1129
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 3: a church they have complete you know, and any kind

1130
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 3: of rep your soul, yeah, or your soul. You know,

1131
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 3: those are very big things. And you know if it's

1132
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 3: your mother or your father, your grandfather, your stepfather doing it,

1133
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 3: you know, like your grandparents, like you know, these are

1134
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 3: the people that you're supposed to love and look up to.

1135
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 2: So yeah, and that takes us back to these facilities.

1136
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 2: This idea that like the parent or guardian of a

1137
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 2: child should have absolute power over them. No, they shouldn't. Yeah,

1138
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 2: Like again, where do we draw that line is a

1139
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 2: question of society should have ask itself. But like you

1140
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 2: shouldn't trust parents to control children either, like to a

1141
00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 2: degree of fatality, you know.

1142
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean like a lot of times there might

1143
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 3: be like an aunt or and uncle who's nearby who's like, hey,

1144
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 3: you know, is stuff going on here? Okay, Like things

1145
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 3: like that. There's there's got to be some kind of

1146
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 3: checks and balances and do have that because we yeah.

1147
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 2: It's it's it's hard, and so we just don't do it.

1148
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 3: Ironically, we are not We talk about being very family oriented,

1149
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 3: but we're not really like we're family oriented in a

1150
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 3: in a one interpretation of family but not in a

1151
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 3: extended community, you know, extended family, extended you know respect.

1152
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 3: I don't know that's that's a whole other topics, but.

1153
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 2: There's a lot to say about, like our attitudes towards

1154
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 2: I think a lot of this toxicity comes back to

1155
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 2: the Roman Empire, if I can go go back to Rome,

1156
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 2: because back back in the Roman Empire, there was this

1157
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 2: understanding that like, you were legally a child as long

1158
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 2: as your father was still alive, right, and he could

1159
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:54,440
Speaker 2: he could kill you. They have parents had the specifically

1160
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 2: the pattern Familius had the technically the legal ability to

1161
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 2: execute his children. And there I think there's a surprising

1162
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 2: number of people who think that that should more or

1163
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 2: less still be the law. Certainly, the way that a

1164
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 2: lot of parents treat their their gay and trans kids

1165
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 2: makes me think that like, oh, so that that idea

1166
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 2: is still kicking around in a lot of heads.

1167
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 3: Huh yeah, or you need to take your child.

1168
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to break your kid down, right. So

1169
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 2: we've just talked about what Steve's people did after he

1170
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 2: left the state of Utah, and I know that I

1171
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 2: sneakily said Steve was gone from the story now, But surprise, Mara,

1172
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 2: Steve has a post scrunt. He's got a third approach.

1173
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 2: Oh boy, he has like three more acts here. So

1174
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 2: for his own sake, Steve did not take the fact

1175
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 2: that he was no longer allowed to operate a wilderness

1176
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 2: therapy camp in Utah lying down. He moved to Hawaii

1177
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety, where he started to run a child

1178
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 2: treatment facility without a license. Write up in the New

1179
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 2: York Times notes Thomas D. Ferrell, the deputy district attorney

1180
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 2: who sought the injunction to close the up, said he

1181
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 2: interviewed the children who were removed from the Malachai program,

1182
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 2: and every damn one of them, he said, told officials

1183
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 2: that camp counselors physically abused them. So that's great. I'm

1184
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 2: sure that's the end of Steve's career, right, How many

1185
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 2: more times could the government get involved with you abusing

1186
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 2: children in your camps? And oh? A couple of years later,

1187
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 2: he got caught operating another facility, this time in the

1188
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 2: US Virgin Islands, again without a license. He was shut

1189
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 2: down again, but several months later, two boys escaped from

1190
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:33,479
Speaker 2: another facility he was running in Costa Rica and told

1191
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 2: parents that they had been imprisoned and physically abused.

1192
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 3: In nineteen they start going to because like then you

1193
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 3: had these ones. Wasn't there like a school. It wasn't

1194
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 3: a wilderness program, but there was like a school I

1195
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 3: think in Guantanamo Bay or a No Tranquility Bay.

1196
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, Puerto Rico. Okay, he operates at

1197
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four, he operates a camp in Puerto Rico.

1198
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 2: And this camp gets busted because he's operating it under

1199
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 2: a fall name. This camp gets busted because local law

1200
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:07,640
Speaker 2: enforcement finds, like a cop finds like a car parked

1201
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 2: kind of in the woods and finds five boys tied

1202
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 2: up with rope in the back of the car with

1203
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 2: nooses around their necks.

1204
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 3: Jeezu go.

1205
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 2: So the cops are like, what's what's going on here, kids?

1206
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 2: And the kids are like, well, we're in this wilderness

1207
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 2: camp and they're disciplining us. And the cops are like,

1208
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 2: this doesn't seem like something you should legally be allowed

1209
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 2: to do to children. We're taking you in And so

1210
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 2: they look into the matter and it turns out that

1211
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 2: counselors had gotten fed up with these boys and left

1212
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:38,720
Speaker 2: them tied in the back of a car because they

1213
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 2: didn't want to, like do a hike or something. Steve

1214
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,800
Speaker 2: and his program were charged with child abuse yet again,

1215
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 2: but they bounced before being served. Frustrated by the fact

1216
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 2: that he kept getting caught, Steve was by this point

1217
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 2: using a fake name in order to operate his businesses.

1218
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 2: When he was asked about this by The New York Times,

1219
01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 2: he told them that he had to use an alias

1220
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:02,680
Speaker 2: now just to stay in business and feed my family.

1221
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,560
Speaker 2: That article goes on to tell the story of Christopher Humble,

1222
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 2: who was enrolled by his mother in an outdoor therapy

1223
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:13,479
Speaker 2: program in Samoa. After finding an advertisement for something called

1224
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 2: the Pacific Coast Academy, his mother talked on the phone

1225
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 2: with their head marketer, Stephen Michaels, who was really Steve Cartisano.

1226
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 2: The man has caught an imagination, but he cannot fathom

1227
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 2: having a name that is it's Steve oh Man. That's

1228
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 2: I don't know why, but that's quite funny. Yeah, Michaels,

1229
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:40,720
Speaker 2: here's the New York Times again.

1230
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 3: Turned his back on his Italian heritage.

1231
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 2: Yeah he did. He did, really threw that away and

1232
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 2: threw away his Montana heritage too. Quote mister Michael she

1233
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:55,439
Speaker 2: recalled told her that her son would receive proper care

1234
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 2: as well as stern discipline at the academy's camp on

1235
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 2: the South Pacific island of Samoa. Persuaded by his promises,

1236
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:04,439
Speaker 2: Miss Humble enrolled her son, Christopher, in a one year

1237
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 2: program for twenty thousand dollars. Christopher lasted six months. When

1238
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 2: he returned home in December nineteen ninety nine, Miss Humble

1239
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 2: said his weight had dropped to one hundred and eighteen

1240
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:17,400
Speaker 2: pounds from one hundred and sixty five. He had scars

1241
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 2: from beatings, and he could barely walk or talk. So

1242
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:26,520
Speaker 2: it always ends the same way. All of these camps

1243
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 2: worked the same way, which at this point the first

1244
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 2: one I might be like, well, maybe you were just

1245
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 2: so negligent that you let this happen. We're now four

1246
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 2: camps send this is how you want them to operate, right, Like,

1247
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 2: that's clear to everyone, I think now. The Times notes

1248
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 2: in that article that over his twelve year career up

1249
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 2: to that point, Steve had been accused of fraud and

1250
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 2: abuse at every single camp he operated. His Samoan program

1251
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 2: lasted just three years before more than a dozen children

1252
01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 2: made reports of physical abuse. One teenager claimed to have

1253
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 2: been molested by multiple camp counselors, all of whom had

1254
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 2: been hired by Cartesano. When confronted about all of this

1255
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 2: by The Times, Steve defended himself by arguing that the

1256
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 2: children were all habitual liars whose parents just wanted refunds.

1257
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:12,600
Speaker 2: He would argue that only twenty five of the twelve

1258
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 2: hundred children who'd attended his camps were even complaining, a

1259
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 2: number that was blatantly untrue even at the time. When

1260
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 2: asked about the numerous allegations of abuse by his students,

1261
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:24,520
Speaker 2: Steve told The Times, all of them are unfounded, all

1262
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 2: of them exaggerations. It never happened. These kids were no

1263
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 2: angels to begin with, and they would say anything to

1264
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 2: get sent home. So angels, Hey, are you going to say?

1265
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 3: No angel?

1266
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 2: Steve's shaking hands with every cop in the country, like.

1267
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 3: It's it's the thing. I mean, the thing is like Also,

1268
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 3: I can only imagine how many of these children were

1269
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 3: sexually assaulted but were too terrified. Never said you can't

1270
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 3: say anything about it.

1271
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:53,680
Speaker 2: Yes, yep, yep. Yeah.

1272
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 3: If you come home unable to speak, you know you're

1273
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 3: not going to be able to say this person did

1274
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 3: something to me.

1275
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 2: It also like, it takes a lot of trust, as

1276
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 2: does anyone to talk about that. And if your parents

1277
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:08,200
Speaker 2: have just paid for you to be abducted for a year,

1278
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:12,040
Speaker 2: maybe you don't trust him anymore. Yeah, I wouldn't. Yeah,

1279
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 2: it might not be smart to trust them after that.

1280
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 3: Well, these places also ruin families because of that too,

1281
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 3: because even parents who were taken in, who were you know,

1282
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:23,720
Speaker 3: miss like, think about this, you know, they're going to

1283
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:27,040
Speaker 3: be the subject of a lot of hate and resentment, understandably,

1284
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 3: understandably so for the rest of these kids' lives.

1285
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:35,600
Speaker 2: Don't send your kids to these programs parents, you know anyway.

1286
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:40,960
Speaker 2: So now I will say this about Steve. He seems

1287
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 2: to have a he was a customer as well as

1288
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:46,840
Speaker 2: a purveyor of these services, because he sent both of

1289
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:49,439
Speaker 2: his kids, I think to these programs. He definitely sent

1290
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 2: his son David, who developed a drug problem, paid for

1291
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,400
Speaker 2: him to be kidnapped and taken to a wilderness camp.

1292
01:06:56,520 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 2: Now I don't know much about David, but the documentary

1293
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 2: that came out recently, Steve's wife says that David is

1294
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,160
Speaker 2: in prison at the time the documentary was formed. So

1295
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:08,439
Speaker 2: I'm going to guess not great. The tough love didn't

1296
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,920
Speaker 2: work here. Steve Cardesano died of a heart attack in

1297
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:16,080
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. He left behind a massive industry largely formed

1298
01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:18,440
Speaker 2: in his image. As this paragraph from an article in

1299
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 2: Rolling Stone makes clear, his Wilderness Camp set the foundation

1300
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:24,360
Speaker 2: for thousands of other programs. More than one hundred and

1301
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:27,680
Speaker 2: twenty thousand children live in troubled teen facilities which include

1302
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:32,480
Speaker 2: wilderness programs. Training standards fluctuate drastically from organization to organization,

1303
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 2: and in two thousand and five, the US Government Accountability

1304
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:38,880
Speaker 2: Office recorded more than fifteen hundred employees of involved in

1305
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:42,400
Speaker 2: litigation for abuse in thirty three states, and from twenty

1306
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 2: eighteen to twenty twenty one, thirteen people were fired or

1307
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 2: resigned from youth treatment centers in Utah due to sexual

1308
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 2: behavior and sexual assault allegations, according to a twenty twenty

1309
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 2: two investigation by the Salt Lake Tribune.

1310
01:07:55,760 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 3: So, there was a TV show about wilderness Camp. I

1311
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:03,920
Speaker 3: remember that in like the two thousands, called like you know,

1312
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 3: brat Camp or something like that, like camp. Yeah, it

1313
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:13,400
Speaker 3: had it had a that was like like they had

1314
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:15,480
Speaker 3: like a moment you know when doctor Phil is sending

1315
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:16,800
Speaker 3: them away to everybody.

1316
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:18,680
Speaker 2: See if we can get some good TV out of this.

1317
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:22,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, and considering that they're you know, for it had

1318
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 3: been more than like it'd been ten or fifteen years

1319
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:30,160
Speaker 3: and these children had been dying, It's it's like, that's

1320
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:32,080
Speaker 3: the thing that just drives me up the walls that

1321
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:35,680
Speaker 3: these places still existed, They still you know, there was

1322
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:39,760
Speaker 3: no no oversight that these places were able to get

1323
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:40,559
Speaker 3: even bigger.

1324
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, in the.

1325
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 3: Two thousands and and you know, in twenty tens, and

1326
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:48,479
Speaker 3: now finally you know, are being shut down, but are

1327
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 3: probably going to spring up other places.

1328
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:53,599
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure they'll have another renaissance at some point.

1329
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 2: At least sixteen children have died in these facilities since

1330
01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety. Thousands more suffered injury and trauma. As you noted,

1331
01:09:01,040 --> 01:09:03,880
Speaker 2: attempts to reform the industry or even develop a comprehensive

1332
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 2: understanding of its harm have been uneven at best. I

1333
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:11,599
Speaker 2: found an article by the BBC that summarizes the US

1334
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:14,840
Speaker 2: Government Accountability Office report in two thousand and seven, which

1335
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:18,160
Speaker 2: quote found it difficult to grasp the national picture due

1336
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:21,560
Speaker 2: to irregular licensing rules at the state level and ambiguity

1337
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 2: surrounding the label's facilities used to describe themselves like boot

1338
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:29,519
Speaker 2: camps or therapeutic boarding schools. Still, the investigators found thousands

1339
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:32,920
Speaker 2: of allegations of abuse and several deaths at programs like

1340
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 2: this around the United States and in US owned businesses.

1341
01:09:37,200 --> 01:09:41,000
Speaker 2: So yeah, basically, like we found huge numbers of allegations

1342
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,479
Speaker 2: of physical sexual abuse, we found a number of deaths.

1343
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:47,160
Speaker 2: But there's so little standardization and even what these places

1344
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:50,679
Speaker 2: are called that it's impossible to get like the kind

1345
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:53,560
Speaker 2: of data that you would want to have for programs

1346
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 2: like this. I can't say there's no evidence they fucking

1347
01:09:56,680 --> 01:10:03,400
Speaker 2: work right. As a result of how like decentralized, all

1348
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:05,840
Speaker 2: of this is about how difficult it is to kind

1349
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:08,160
Speaker 2: of even find out what's going on. It's been left

1350
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:10,599
Speaker 2: to the parents of dead kids and to adult survivors

1351
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:14,559
Speaker 2: of these programs to try and force accountability. Cynthia Clark

1352
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:17,120
Speaker 2: Harvey is one of the former Her daughter Ericad died

1353
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:20,240
Speaker 2: of dehydration and heat stroke one day into a Nevada

1354
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:23,439
Speaker 2: program in two thousand and two. Cynthia had done her

1355
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:26,280
Speaker 2: homework in trying to pick a place for her daughter,

1356
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 2: and by two thousand and two there were state licensing

1357
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:31,600
Speaker 2: requirements so she thought, like, this place is licensed by

1358
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:34,240
Speaker 2: the state, it's accredited, they have a good reputation. This

1359
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:38,200
Speaker 2: should be safe and then quote. After weeks of deliberation

1360
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:40,560
Speaker 2: and planning, they traveled to Nevada under the guise of

1361
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:43,360
Speaker 2: a family trip with her younger sister. When the deception

1362
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:46,280
Speaker 2: was revealed, Erica became scared and angry and refused to

1363
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 2: get out of the car. After a turbulent hours long

1364
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 2: group therapy session with other families, she and the other

1365
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:54,280
Speaker 2: children were taken away. This was the last time Cynthia

1366
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:56,880
Speaker 2: and her husband ever saw their daughter alive. By the

1367
01:10:56,920 --> 01:10:59,200
Speaker 2: time they got back home to Arizona the following evening,

1368
01:10:59,240 --> 01:11:01,639
Speaker 2: there was already a message waiting on their answering phone

1369
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:04,400
Speaker 2: telling them to call. They were told Erika had an

1370
01:11:04,439 --> 01:11:09,640
Speaker 2: accident and staff were performing CPR. So Cynthia wound up

1371
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:12,080
Speaker 2: testifying to Congress about what had happened to her daughter.

1372
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:14,759
Speaker 2: And she's been joined in her advocacy by a number

1373
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:18,080
Speaker 2: of celebrity survivors of these programs, most famous among them

1374
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:21,160
Speaker 2: Paris Hilton, who has funded a significant amount of advocacy

1375
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:24,280
Speaker 2: in documentary journalism to try to bring this industry to

1376
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:26,920
Speaker 2: an end. It's taken a long time, but the work

1377
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:29,200
Speaker 2: of these survivors and parents is borne fruit, as this

1378
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:33,160
Speaker 2: article in the Salt Lake Tribune makes clear. Legislators enacted

1379
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:36,120
Speaker 2: more regulations in twenty twenty one in response to increased

1380
01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:39,760
Speaker 2: scrutiny in recent years of youth treatment programs amid allegations

1381
01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:43,080
Speaker 2: of mistreatment and abuse. The legislation placed limits on the

1382
01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:45,479
Speaker 2: use of restraints for all programs and addressed the use

1383
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:48,639
Speaker 2: of drugs and isolation rooms and residential centers. It also

1384
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:51,800
Speaker 2: earmarked more money to hire more state regulators who now

1385
01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:54,919
Speaker 2: go into youth treatment programs more often, and it requires

1386
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:57,360
Speaker 2: programs to report when a staff member used a physical

1387
01:11:57,400 --> 01:11:59,840
Speaker 2: restraint on a young person or puts them in seclusion.

1388
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:04,200
Speaker 2: Perhaps the greatest damage has been done to the reputation

1389
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:06,560
Speaker 2: of the industry as a whole, and that may ultimately

1390
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:08,760
Speaker 2: be the thing that's actually does more to kill it

1391
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:11,360
Speaker 2: than any of these regulations, right, is the fact that

1392
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 2: at this point, the sheer weight and you know, celebrity

1393
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 2: has helped with this of attention on this has given

1394
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:20,599
Speaker 2: it a black eye. In twenty twenty three, nearly half

1395
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:23,639
Speaker 2: of Utah's wilderness camps shut down. The ones that remain

1396
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 2: are hosting only a fraction of their full capacity. So

1397
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:29,400
Speaker 2: as you've said, you know, we can be hopeful that

1398
01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:33,479
Speaker 2: this thing is dying out, but uh, you know, someone

1399
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:35,719
Speaker 2: will come along with something else at some point.

1400
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:40,280
Speaker 3: I think that letting parents know, you know, and letting

1401
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:43,519
Speaker 3: people know what these places really are and what they

1402
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:48,519
Speaker 3: actually do, I do think is because obviously the you know,

1403
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:51,960
Speaker 3: trying to get oversight through you know, any other means

1404
01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:55,800
Speaker 3: doesn't seem to be really working. And I think that

1405
01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:58,759
Speaker 3: really just sort of spreading the word is is probably

1406
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 3: the best that you know, they can do. Yeah, and

1407
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:04,240
Speaker 3: you know, that helped shut down some of the some

1408
01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:06,479
Speaker 3: of the like some of the places like this that

1409
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 3: were actually school schools. You know, if something has a

1410
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:14,439
Speaker 3: bad enough reputation, sometimes that sort of you know, starves

1411
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:18,479
Speaker 3: itt of oxygen and you know, yeah, and it's I

1412
01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:21,080
Speaker 3: don't know, I think that that's one of the one

1413
01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 3: of the best things, one of the only things really

1414
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:26,839
Speaker 3: that can happen. And yeah, you're right, probably something something

1415
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:31,920
Speaker 3: else that's just as shitty might take its place. But yeah,

1416
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:35,240
Speaker 3: hopefully hopefully these places will not be around much longer.

1417
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:38,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I think that's as good a note to

1418
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:42,679
Speaker 2: end on as any Mara Wilson, Mara, your memoir Where

1419
01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:47,480
Speaker 2: Am I Now? Out in stores, available on the internet,

1420
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:51,360
Speaker 2: being beamed into space to be listened to by our

1421
01:13:51,439 --> 01:13:54,439
Speaker 2: coming alien overlord so that they can understand human culture.

1422
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:57,759
Speaker 2: Congratulations on that contract, by the way, that's a big one.

1423
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 2: Anything else you want to plug before we roll out?

1424
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:05,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been writing articles for The Guardian about psychology

1425
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:09,800
Speaker 3: and wellness, and I've been doing a lot of audiobook

1426
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:14,200
Speaker 3: narration these days. I love doing it voiceover and audiobooks

1427
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:16,800
Speaker 3: or narration are like my favorite thing. You can find

1428
01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 3: a lot of those books on liber dot FM. And

1429
01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:24,000
Speaker 3: also I wrote another short memoir called Good Girls Don't,

1430
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:28,760
Speaker 3: which is about being a pissed off people pleaser, and

1431
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:32,200
Speaker 3: that is available on what was formerly known as scribbed

1432
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:33,920
Speaker 3: and I believe is now called ever Rand.

1433
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:36,080
Speaker 2: So yeah, change scribed.

1434
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:38,519
Speaker 3: I think they did. Yeah, I think they did, And

1435
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:41,720
Speaker 3: so yeah, check out check out Where Am I Now?

1436
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:42,760
Speaker 3: And Good Girls Don't?

1437
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:46,400
Speaker 2: Excellent. Thank you so much, Mara. You've been wonderful, and

1438
01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:50,479
Speaker 2: you listeners have also been wonderful listening to this these

1439
01:14:50,479 --> 01:14:54,240
Speaker 2: horrible stories of terrible things. You know, go go hug

1440
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:58,719
Speaker 2: a kitten or you know again. Drive to the corporate

1441
01:14:58,840 --> 01:14:59,599
Speaker 2: offices of.

1442
01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:03,160
Speaker 3: No, Absolutely not.

1443
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:12,160
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1444
01:15:12,479 --> 01:15:15,760
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1445
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:19,160
Speaker 1: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1446
01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:22,600
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

1447
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:26,639
Speaker 1: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1448
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:30,439
Speaker 1: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

1449
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:32,120
Speaker 1: at Behind the Bastards