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Speaker 1: Welcome to Had of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,

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Speaker 1: and today we're talking about why time is greater than

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Speaker 1: money with Ben Miller. Actually, time it's easily our most

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Speaker 1: precious resource, but it's not often that we take the

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Speaker 1: time to figure out how it is that we're going

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Speaker 1: to spend our minutes and our hours, which then inevitably

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Speaker 1: turn into weeks and years. And then if you completely

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Speaker 1: fail to do this like that is when you end

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Speaker 1: up as the proverbial careerist, right where you're looking back

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Speaker 1: at the wasted decades wishing that you would have done

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Speaker 1: something differently. And luckily, our guest today, Ben Miller, he

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Speaker 1: actually did shake things up. He traded a position on

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Speaker 1: Wall Street with golden sacks for a fulfilling life out

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Speaker 1: there in Colorado. He chose meaning over money, and he's

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Speaker 1: actually on a quest to help others to discover what

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Speaker 1: a fulfilling life is for them with the software that

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Speaker 1: he's developed, Chronify. So we're gonna talk about that, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm excited for what I think will be

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Speaker 1: a wide ranging conversation all about personal finances, but specifically

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Speaker 1: with time at the center of pretty much everything that

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Speaker 1: we talk about today. So Ben Miller, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for joining us today on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thanks a lot for having me. I'm excited to be.

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Speaker 1: Here, Ben, We're excited for this combo and Matt and

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Speaker 1: I we you know, you know, we like craft beer

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Speaker 1: and everyone knows that at this point, no secret. But

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Speaker 1: we spend I think the current beer is just one

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Speaker 1: single can of beer and it costs like seven dollars

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Speaker 1: and fifty cents, which a lot of people would say,

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Speaker 1: that's that's crazy. I need a twelve is at the

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Speaker 1: accurate price tag right there? I think so?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it lowers has seven dollars and twenty nine cents.

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Speaker 1: It's not cheap. That's ridiculous, right, So we spend too much,

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Speaker 1: some would say on craft beer, but we're also being intentional.

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Speaker 1: We're saving investing for the future while we spend exordinantly

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Speaker 1: on something that we care about. I'm curious, what's that

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Speaker 1: for you? What's your craft beer equivalent? Hmm?

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Speaker 2: My craft beer equivalent, I'd say, would definitely have to

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Speaker 2: be strategy board games. So I'm outing myself is a

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Speaker 2: huge door here. But those sometimes can go for like

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Speaker 2: a one hundred bucks a pop, but well worth it.

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Speaker 2: Hours of family fun.

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Speaker 3: Okay, which game? Because I think when I share this love, Yes,

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Speaker 3: we also are nerdy, our lovers of nerdy board games.

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Speaker 3: But when we go on our beach vacation every night,

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Speaker 3: every night we're there, we're playing a nerdy board game game.

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Speaker 3: Carcassone Sellers of Catan, We're playing Puerto Rico Acquire acchoire

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Speaker 3: a big So what game.

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Speaker 2: You guys know, the whole gamut? Then this is normally

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Speaker 2: people's eyes glaze over when I yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: They're like, wait, are you talking about Monopoly? We're like, yeah, no, no,

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Speaker 3: we're not like leave that for the kids like in

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Speaker 3: the nineties, I'm riskus for children.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about the big ones. Are you talking about Clue? No?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so what game are you dropping one hundred, one

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Speaker 3: hundred plus dollars on?

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Speaker 2: Especially bowl? Yeah, it's like Kickstar hard stuff. So ill

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Speaker 2: do these like you know, big kind of space opera

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Speaker 2: sort of games or whatever, And so it'll be you know,

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Speaker 2: sometimes one or two hundred bucks, and then you got

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Speaker 2: to wait a couple of years for them to actually

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Speaker 2: make it. But that's you know, my my wife and

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Speaker 2: I are idea of a great Saturday night is like

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Speaker 2: sitting down over the board game table and trying to

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Speaker 2: prove to each other who's smarter.

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Speaker 3: So that's kind of who who is the most cutthroat?

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Speaker 1: She let lets you sometimes, right, yeah. Once.

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Speaker 2: It's funny you mentioned Carcassone, Like we almost lost our

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Speaker 2: relationship over that game, because I just we were playing.

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Speaker 3: Settlers that the folks are going after each other's throats for.

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Speaker 2: We were we were like trading games, you know, kind

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Speaker 2: of evenly matched, and then she started just whipping me

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Speaker 2: on the regular, and I was like, what is going on?

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Speaker 2: And then I discovered she had the app on her

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Speaker 2: phone and so she was just getting all kinds of extracurriculum.

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Speaker 1: She was honing, honing her skills. Yes, dude, I love it.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So final question relatable games. What what game are

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Speaker 3: you currently playing a whole lot.

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Speaker 1: Or with friends?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd say one of our recent favorites has been

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Speaker 2: a game called ark Nova. It's like a zoo building

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Speaker 2: game of all.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I'm running that down right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you kind of whatever building closures and put animals

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Speaker 2: in them, and I love it. Got to catch them

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Speaker 2: all type.

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Speaker 3: So nerdy, so dorky, but but I love it. The

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Speaker 3: last one we cracked open, uh for the first time

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Speaker 3: was Wingspan, which yes, yeah, were one of the prettiest

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Speaker 3: prettiest and you get to learn because you're learning about

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Speaker 3: these actual species of birds and the eggs and how

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Speaker 3: much they typically lay and where they nest, and I

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Speaker 3: mean it's yeah, that's right, Okay, before we completely lose

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Speaker 3: all of our listeners and we gotta start talking about

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Speaker 3: money and for for you personally, I mean, like you

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Speaker 3: said that you were pursuing what you would call conventional

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Speaker 3: success for most of your life, Like you had good grades,

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Speaker 3: the right school, big time job, but you found that

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Speaker 3: it wasn't fulfilling. So what did you find was missing

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Speaker 3: and specifically, like what it caused you to have like

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Speaker 3: a come to Jesus moment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question. I first of all, I

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Speaker 2: felt very strange and like almost ungrateful because I was

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Speaker 2: super super lucky to have that position, you know, to

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Speaker 2: be in that role. It was kind of like a

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Speaker 2: pinch me sort of job that I felt like a

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Speaker 2: lot of people would kill for. And so I was

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Speaker 2: I was wondering what's wrong with me? Like why can't

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Speaker 2: I appreciate this? But what really kind of made it

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Speaker 2: come to a head, was you know, I was watching people,

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Speaker 2: you know, either either retire or you know, move on.

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Speaker 2: And so I watched one guy in particular retire at

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Speaker 2: like forty five, and he was you know, minted, had

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Speaker 2: a bunch of money and all that kind of stuff,

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Speaker 2: and so most people look at him and go, man,

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Speaker 2: nice job, you know, you win the game. And I

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Speaker 2: was looking at him and going like, geez, I hope

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Speaker 2: that's not me. I hope by the time I'm forty five,

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Speaker 2: you know, I've done more than just this. And that

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Speaker 2: was kind of a shot across the bow for me

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Speaker 2: where I knew, you know, I'd known for a while

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Speaker 2: that it wasn't what I wanted to do with my

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Speaker 2: with my entire life, but that that really kind of,

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Speaker 2: you know, set thing in motion where I realized, like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: how do I not become this? You know, how do

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Speaker 2: I not become this person who's only done this? How

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Speaker 2: do I how do I make something and help people

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Speaker 2: by the time.

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Speaker 1: I get there. M So your desire to go out there,

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Speaker 1: strike it on your own, start your own business, start chronify?

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Speaker 1: Was that more because you didn't think your Wall Street

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Speaker 1: job was doing good in the world and you wanted

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Speaker 1: to do good in the world. Or was it more

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Speaker 1: because you wanted more control of your time?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 1: Was it? Was it both? How? Yeah? What was the

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Speaker 1: thought process there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're pointing out a little bit of circularity here.

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Speaker 2: I mean, because the very the very product that I'm

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Speaker 2: out there, you know, out there trying to trying to

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Speaker 2: put into the world now, is that is based on

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Speaker 2: the precursor to or it's based on the product that

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Speaker 2: I used to convince myself that it was time to

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Speaker 2: move on. And so the I would say, I would

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Speaker 2: say this, I realized early on that that I wasn't

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Speaker 2: doing something that I always wanted to do, or that

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Speaker 2: I that I wasn't going to want to do forever.

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Speaker 2: And with that, I realized, Okay, okay, well, I want

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Speaker 2: to make sure I don't get on this like slippery slope.

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Speaker 2: I want to make sure that I don't wind up,

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Speaker 2: you know, just one more year, one more year, one

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Speaker 2: more year. And then suddenly I wake up and I'm

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Speaker 2: fifty five, and I haven't, you know, gone out and

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Speaker 2: started a business, which is what I always wanted to do.

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Speaker 2: I developed an overweening interest in personal finance, throughout the

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Speaker 2: first you know, a few years that I was on

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Speaker 2: the job and it and it took a while for

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Speaker 2: it to kind of percolate. You know. I read a

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Speaker 2: book called Your Money or Your Life, and that kind

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Speaker 2: of planted the seed for me where I was just like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: now that I think of it in terms of time,

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Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, it's like, okay, the answers

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Speaker 2: just drop right out. And so for me, I remember

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Speaker 2: being literally at the Goldman gym, like working out, googling

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Speaker 2: like your Money or Your Life app and there was nothing,

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Speaker 2: and so I decided to That was kind of what

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Speaker 2: planted the seed for me that I should maybe try

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Speaker 2: and bills some.

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Speaker 1: Very cool so real quick.

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Speaker 3: Then, what age were you when you started having those

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Speaker 3: internal conversations where you were like, Okay, I don't want

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Speaker 3: to do the do the one more year thing. Do

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Speaker 3: you remember about when that was? Like how far along

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Speaker 3: into your career?

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Speaker 1: I guess were you?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I would say I first realized at two years into

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Speaker 2: my career. I remember grabbing a friend of mine from

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Speaker 2: college and saying, like, dude, if I'm still doing this

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Speaker 2: at thirty two, grab me by the caller and make

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Speaker 2: sure that I justify myself because I can see where

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Speaker 2: this movie's going. Yeah, but you know, there's always there's

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Speaker 2: always insecurity, scarcity kind of mindset that makes you go, well,

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Speaker 2: maybe do I have enough? Can I move on? You know,

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Speaker 2: one more year? One more year?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you also don't want to kind of toss away.

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Speaker 1: You've worked so hard for this for so long, and

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Speaker 1: you're like, I'm here. You don't want to be ungrateful,

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Speaker 1: And maybe that desire to kind of, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: continue down the path that you've set out for yourself

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Speaker 1: and not blaze a new trail. I think that can

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Speaker 1: be cause a lot of people to stay put to

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Speaker 1: And I guess I'm curious too when we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the book your money or your life, the main life

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Speaker 1: changing concept for a lot of people is thinking about

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Speaker 1: their money in terms of life hours, Like, Yeah, what

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Speaker 1: was that like for you reading that book and how

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Speaker 1: did that specifically kind of change your trajectory and your

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Speaker 1: thought process.

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Speaker 2: I think the biggest thing was just simplicity. I'm a

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Speaker 2: stickler for simplicity. You know, there's just so much out there,

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Speaker 2: there's so much data, especially now that it's just like

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Speaker 2: you can be drowning in too much information. It's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, analysis paralysis type of thing. And for me,

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Speaker 2: what that book did was it kind of knocked things

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Speaker 2: into line in terms of realizing, look, you can really

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Speaker 2: distill everything down to one you know, kind of single

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Speaker 2: kernel of truth here. You know, here's how many years

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Speaker 2: you've got in the bank. And with that, it's just like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: all these all these numbers that often make people's eyes

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Speaker 2: glaze over, you know, net worth expenses and stuff like that,

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Speaker 2: if you can distill it all down into one little

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Speaker 2: simple idea that actually has intuitive hooks. You know, people

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Speaker 2: can imagine what it's like to you know, relax for

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Speaker 2: seven years. Then if you've got seven years in the bank,

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Speaker 2: then that's what that says. And by the way, then

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Speaker 2: that factors in everything that it needs to factor in.

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Speaker 2: You know, if you're if your wealth goes up, great,

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Speaker 2: it's factored in. And if your expenses go down, awesome,

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Speaker 2: that's also factored in. And so for me, it was

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Speaker 2: just the beautiful, full simplicity of not having to track

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Speaker 2: nineteen different things but being able to distill it all

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Speaker 2: down to one.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So is that what you would tell folks like

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Speaker 3: I think there might be a lot of listeners tuning

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Speaker 3: in right now and they're thinking, Man, I would love

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Speaker 3: to quit my day job. I would love to maybe

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Speaker 3: take a more entrepreneurial path. Would you want them to

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Speaker 3: have a certain number of months or even years of

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Speaker 3: living expenses set aside? If I guess, a what position

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Speaker 3: were you in? And then what do you think folks

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Speaker 3: should maybe have in the bank before they kind of

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Speaker 3: start going out on their own to pursue something that

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Speaker 3: is a little more life giving.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's totally situational. You know. The conventional wisdom

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Speaker 2: for you know, what do you want to have is

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Speaker 2: called it like a whatever, a six month emergency fund

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Speaker 2: or something. If you're going to do something entrepreneurial, it's

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Speaker 2: it's way higher than that. You know, you're not going

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Speaker 2: to get a business off the ground and fully running

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Speaker 2: in only six months, and so you know, you might

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Speaker 2: want to have a year or two at least set

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Speaker 2: aside that you can that you can, you know, really

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Speaker 2: get it going. But there's no there's no hard and

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Speaker 2: fast rule, and so much of it is due to

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Speaker 2: you know, if you're starting a business on the side

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Speaker 2: and you've got an income then that provides you more flexibility.

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Speaker 2: If you are a risk taker and you're willing to

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Speaker 2: eat Ramen for three years or whatever, then then great.

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Speaker 2: You know, Like for me, I had to kind of

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Speaker 2: oversolve because you know, I had two little kids. Now

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Speaker 2: I've got three, and we were going to move across

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Speaker 2: the country and start a new lifestyle. So I had

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Speaker 2: to build in some buffer. I felt really lucky because,

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Speaker 2: you know, I started my business in twenty twenty, like

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Speaker 2: January of twenty twenty, and so I was planning on,

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Speaker 2: you know, working from home and living off savings for

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Speaker 2: a couple of years, and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: you know, COVID and kind of a lot of people

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Speaker 2: had to do something pretty similar to that, you know,

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Speaker 2: work from home and in some cases live off of savings.

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Speaker 2: And so I was fortunate, but I'm I'm kind of

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Speaker 2: a risk averse guy by default orientation, and so I

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Speaker 2: felt like I kind of had to had to oversolve.

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Speaker 2: But different people, you know, different strokes for different folks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, our understatement of the year, like giving a startup

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Speaker 1: off the ground isn't easy, right, and so like you're

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Speaker 1: you're living that life, you're kind of in the middle

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Speaker 1: of it still, and it can take a lot of

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Speaker 1: time too, right too, and especially when it when it's

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Speaker 1: kind of your fourth baby. Really you're like, oh, man,

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Speaker 1: like you, you have a vested interest on multiple fronts

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Speaker 1: for seeing this for seeing this thing succeed. So be

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Speaker 1: honest with us. Have you been able to strike the

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Speaker 1: balance you were looking for now that you're out on

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Speaker 1: your own, You're like, I quit this job because I

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Speaker 1: was working too many hours. But are you working too

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Speaker 1: many hours doing the thing that you love now or

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Speaker 1: have you been able to find a good balance.

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Speaker 2: There's it's a continuous process to try and find that balance.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's there's good parts of what I'm doing

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Speaker 2: now and there's bad parts of what I'm doing now.

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Speaker 2: When I think back to my time at Goldman, for example,

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Speaker 2: you know, Friday night, when I walked out of the office, poof,

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Speaker 2: I didn't think about work until Monday morning. And now

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Speaker 2: it's the exact opposite. You know, no matter what I'm doing,

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Speaker 2: there's always this background process running like, oh, how can

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Speaker 2: I tweak this, how can I make that better? How

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Speaker 2: can I you know, increase the value of this product,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. Because it's it's you know, like you said,

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Speaker 2: it's my baby. And so there's this double edged sword

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Speaker 2: because on the one hand, you know, it's like it's

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Speaker 2: harder for me to be, you know, at home and

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Speaker 2: present with my kids then it would be if I

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Speaker 2: had a job that I didn't care about, that's for sure.

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Speaker 2: But on the other hand, it's like they get to

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Speaker 2: witness a father who's in love with his work, whereas

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Speaker 2: if I was just kind of work a day, humdrum,

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Speaker 2: you know, waddling to the office and coming back a

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Speaker 2: little bit mad, then you know, that wouldn't be That

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be sending the right message to them about the

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Speaker 2: role that work is supposed to occupy in their life either.

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Speaker 2: And so it's a balance to be struck. I definitely

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Speaker 2: have not cracked that nut yet. And it's kind of

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Speaker 2: like raising a kid where it's just like even if

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Speaker 2: you even if you do figure out the perfect balance,

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Speaker 2: you're not necessarily it's not going to be an always

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Speaker 2: in forever thing. It's it's like two weeks from now, boom,

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Speaker 2: something happens and you've got to figure out a new one.

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Speaker 2: So it's it's a work in progress.

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Speaker 1: It's like a pendulum in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well, and then you've written about this as well,

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Speaker 3: but like the risk versus reward isn't quite There are

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Speaker 3: a lot of times when it comes to folks taking

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Speaker 3: the standard nine to five jobs. Yes, you kind of

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Speaker 3: hints it at this, but like there's almost like an

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Speaker 3: obsession with safeness, like reducing a risk safetysm in our

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Speaker 3: country today. And you've kind of talked about how you're

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Speaker 3: kind of missing out on a lot that doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 3: have to come from entrepreneurship. But there is a lot

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Speaker 3: that you realize when you are starting your own business,

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Speaker 3: Like the highs are higher, maybe maybe the lows or

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Speaker 3: lower potentially as well, but you have the ability to

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Speaker 3: tap into something that gives you that truly gives you joy.

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Speaker 3: Is that something that you feel like you've seen as

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Speaker 3: opposed to folks who just are kind of going along

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Speaker 3: with the stock lifestyle and because of that, they're not

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Speaker 3: really questioning how it is that they're making money, and

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Speaker 3: they're also sometimes not questioning how they spend their money

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, entrepreneurship is not for the faint of heart,

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Speaker 2: because for you know, it'll be six weeks of just

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Speaker 2: this is ridiculous. I got to get a real job.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is never going anywhere, followed by like

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Speaker 2: the best forty eight hours in company history. And so

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Speaker 2: it's like this you know, punctuated equilibrium of like you know,

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Speaker 2: you zoom out and look at how things have gone

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Speaker 2: over the last six to twelve months, Like, holy cow,

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Speaker 2: I've actually been doing this. It's working, but the lived experience,

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Speaker 2: week in week out is just exhausting. You know. It's

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Speaker 2: just this this constant string of it's it's kind of

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Speaker 2: like if you're whatever watching your investment accounts every day.

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Speaker 2: The way that we're wired as humans is that if

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Speaker 2: it's up fifty cents one day and down fifty cents

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Speaker 2: the next day, you come out feeling a little bit mad,

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Speaker 2: because like, bad's way more than goods psychologically speaking. But

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Speaker 2: when you zoom out and then you know, go back

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Speaker 2: and look at your at your brokerage account, you know,

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Speaker 2: after six months or after six years, it's like, oh, wow, okay, good,

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Speaker 2: I made a good decision.

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Speaker 1: Yeah all right, so you brought up investing, So I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna go there now. We our friend Doc g He

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Speaker 1: talks about front loading the sacrifice, and it is of

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Speaker 1: course true that a dollar invested when you're nineteen is

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Speaker 1: going to do more for you than a dollar invested

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Speaker 1: at age like forty nine. Right. So, and we've heard

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Speaker 1: more recently about something called consumption smoothing, where some economists

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Speaker 1: have said, hey, instead of investing early, maybe you kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, borrow a little more when you're younger,

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Speaker 1: don't invest quite as much, start investing in your forties.

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Speaker 1: How do you think about finding a happy medium though

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Speaker 1: in those early years when investing is important, But I

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Speaker 1: don't know, it's also possible to take it to the extreme.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, i'd say one, do as I say, not as

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Speaker 2: I do. I screwed this up big time when I

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Speaker 2: was when I was in my initial career, because I

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Speaker 2: part of it was because I really wasn't enjoying my

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Speaker 2: job as much as I should, And so I had

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Speaker 2: this you know, if I'm unhappy at work, then I

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Speaker 2: thought that the cure for that was like, Okay, sprint

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Speaker 2: for the finish line and like get out of here

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Speaker 2: as soon as possible. And so what that's a recipe

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Speaker 2: for is like, Okay, you're unhappy at work, so yeah,

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Speaker 2: let's go ahead and make ourselves unhappy at home too,

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Speaker 2: and that's gonna somehow unhappy at work plus unhappy at home,

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Speaker 2: that just makes you unhappy. And so you definitely don't

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Speaker 2: want to be like sprinting for the finish line and

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Speaker 2: just like is scrimping and saving and you know, investing

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Speaker 2: every single little penny and not being willing to you know,

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Speaker 2: experience your life. But at the same time, I I

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Speaker 2: kind of get queasy when I when I hear people advocating,

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Speaker 2: you know, that kind of economist dictum of consumptions moving

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Speaker 2: to like, oh yeah, borrow, to borrow to the hilt,

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Speaker 2: you know, like when you're twenty two, and then don't worry,

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Speaker 2: it'll all work out when you're.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're always going to make more and you'll be

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Speaker 1: able to overcome the borrowing that you did when you

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Speaker 1: were younger.

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Speaker 2: Right, And so I would say, I would say, you know,

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Speaker 2: live within your means first and foremost. You know, you

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Speaker 2: want the bank account to be going up, not down,

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Speaker 2: and so live within your means. And that means different

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Speaker 2: things for different people. But then I think it's just

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Speaker 2: as important, especially for people who are wired like I am,

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Speaker 2: which is, you know, like a kind of caveman style

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Speaker 2: like saving good spending bad type.

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Speaker 1: When people ask me what's been like, I always say, Caveman,

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Speaker 1: that's yeah.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, the old Geico commercial.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just like that.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly, it bingo And so that that's me. And

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Speaker 2: so for people who are wired like that, I think

404
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Speaker 2: oftentimes you need some encouragement to take some ownership of

405
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Speaker 2: your spending it and do that craft beer equivalent type

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Speaker 2: of thing. Because honestly, for me, when I kind of

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Speaker 2: what made the lights come on was I was realizing myself, like, dude, okay,

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Speaker 2: you're afraid to bust spend eighty dollars on this board game?

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Speaker 2: What are you? What are you teaching yourself? If you

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Speaker 2: if you like, if you defer this purchase, if you

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Speaker 2: just like, don't do this thing that's going to make

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Speaker 2: you happy, Well, one, you're not going to be happy

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Speaker 2: now because you're not gonna be able to, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: play this game with your wife or whatever. And two,

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Speaker 2: you're training yourself to think that, you know, happiness is

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Speaker 2: cheaper than it is for you. The reality is if

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Speaker 2: if happiness for you guys is like craft beer every day,

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Speaker 2: then you don't want to lie to yourself about what

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Speaker 2: that happiness costs. You want to like pull the first

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Speaker 2: fruits of retirement forward and experience them every day until

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Speaker 2: retirement in addition to when you're you know, sipping them

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Speaker 2: on the beach or whatever.

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Speaker 3: It's just the head off the top of the beer.

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Speaker 3: We're not even pulling the full first fase forward, but

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Speaker 3: it's just it's just a little bit, just a little

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Speaker 3: bit of the taste. But what you're talking about here,

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Speaker 3: you know, I guess up until now, we've we've been

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Speaker 3: talking about earning money in career and finding fulfillment there.

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Speaker 3: But what a lot of what you're talking about here

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Speaker 3: has to do with how how it is that you

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Speaker 3: spend your money. And so we're actually going to spend

432
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 3: a lot more of our conversation with you talking about

433
00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,359
Speaker 3: just that. We will get to more on time and

434
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:05,560
Speaker 3: money with Ben Miller.

435
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:17,119
Speaker 1: Right after the break. All right, let's keep talking about

436
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,320
Speaker 1: time and money such an important relationship. And some people

437
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,360
Speaker 1: I might think, Matt, that you and I think that

438
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,080
Speaker 1: money is the most important thing. Heck, we've been doing

439
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,040
Speaker 1: a podcast about money for almost going on six years now.

440
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 1: We talk about it three times a week, right, and yes,

441
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,119
Speaker 1: money is clearly an important thing, but we always talk

442
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,199
Speaker 1: about it as a tool, right, It's a tool that

443
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,399
Speaker 1: allows us to pursue other things in our lives, some

444
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,320
Speaker 1: of which are more important. And so we're talking with

445
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,159
Speaker 1: Ben Miller about why time is actually more important with

446
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,080
Speaker 1: money than money, and so Ben, why is this connection

447
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,359
Speaker 1: between time and money? Why is it so important for

448
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,720
Speaker 1: us to make that connection? And for instance, like a

449
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,120
Speaker 1: recurring one hundred dollars a monthly expense, it might make

450
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,680
Speaker 1: us feel a certain way, but then thinking about it

451
00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,720
Speaker 1: in terms of how many hours of our life that's spending,

452
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,199
Speaker 1: is co us that it kind of hits us differently,

453
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 1: doesn't it?

454
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely? And I think I think ultimately all this stuff

455
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,919
Speaker 2: hinges around the concept of enough. You know, that's like

456
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,480
Speaker 2: a really tricky word when it comes to finance, and

457
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,800
Speaker 2: so if you don't have a good framework, you're just

458
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,919
Speaker 2: not able to really understand what enough even means. And

459
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,359
Speaker 2: so ultimately what enough means is going to be different

460
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,119
Speaker 2: for different people. That's going to be based, you know,

461
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,199
Speaker 2: primarily upon their spending, and then you know they're going

462
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 2: to have to apply some kind of a multiple of Okay,

463
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,159
Speaker 2: here's how many years I think I'm going to live

464
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,440
Speaker 2: during retirement? Or whatever it may be, but we don't

465
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,440
Speaker 2: want to get complicated here. The idea here is that

466
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,199
Speaker 2: like when you think about spending your money, you want

467
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:41,920
Speaker 2: to make sure that it's a good deal. You don't

468
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:43,919
Speaker 2: want to make sure you're not like frittering it away

469
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,360
Speaker 2: on things that you don't actually care about. But likewise,

470
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,240
Speaker 2: you don't want to make the other type of error either.

471
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,440
Speaker 2: You don't want to refuse to spend money on things

472
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 2: that are actually good for you. So use that, you know,

473
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,880
Speaker 2: one hundred dollars recurring expense, like I think about, for example,

474
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,800
Speaker 2: date night with my wife. And so so I'm a

475
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,400
Speaker 2: guy who like feels a little bit queasy every time

476
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 2: a dollar leaves his wallet. And so normally when I, like,

477
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,160
Speaker 2: you know, pay for something, when I'm signing the check,

478
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 2: I'm just like kind of shaking my head, you know,

479
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 2: hopefully inside my head and not actually the people that

480
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 2: I'm at dinner with, but like I'm thinking, like, oh, gosh, Ben,

481
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 2: you really screwed this one up. Like there's more money leaving,

482
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:20,480
Speaker 2: Like the money's going the wrong way.

483
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 1: Shouldn't have got the appetizer.

484
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,240
Speaker 2: Right exactly exactly. And so for me, that's the way

485
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 2: that I'm wired. But when I understand things in terms

486
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 2: of time, then all of a sudden I can have

487
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,959
Speaker 2: ownership and permission. Because for example, that that you know,

488
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 2: one hundred dollars expense, I might look at that, run

489
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,439
Speaker 2: the numbers and go like, okay, that is delaying my

490
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 2: retirement by three months. Just let's just say then if

491
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,480
Speaker 2: I look at that you know, date night with my

492
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,880
Speaker 2: wife and go okay, this is delaying my retirement by

493
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 2: three months, then I go, okay, is that scary to me? Well, One,

494
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 2: I love my job and so like you know, delaying

495
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,160
Speaker 2: my retirement is not really all that scary. And two,

496
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,160
Speaker 2: I'm investing in the relationship that's the bedrock of my family,

497
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 2: and so if anything, I'll do it twice as much

498
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,880
Speaker 2: like this is a great deal for me. So now

499
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,199
Speaker 2: when I sign that check, instead of just feeling like,

500
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 2: uh wrong, money's going the wrong way, I feel like, Okay, good,

501
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 2: this is approved. This is you know, kind of been

502
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,199
Speaker 2: blessed by the system, and it's something that I that

503
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 2: I feel good about rather than bad about.

504
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and kind of going back to what you're saying

505
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 3: about knowing what it is to have enough and as

506
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,439
Speaker 3: far as delaying your retirement by a certain number of

507
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 3: months or even years, I guess for maybe a giant purchase.

508
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 3: But you write about too, how it's not even about

509
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 3: reaching some sort of golden date, right like and within

510
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 3: the fire community, it's like what's your number yea, and

511
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 3: it's you talk about how it's not often about that

512
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 3: and on how to money, Like when we talk about it,

513
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 3: we call it the basically how financial independence exists as

514
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 3: a spectrum, but you talk about it within the sort

515
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 3: of context of being able to curate problems. Can you

516
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 3: talk about some of the other benefits how even if

517
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,120
Speaker 3: you're not necessarily focused on a hard retirement date sort

518
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 3: of like like you're not because you love the work

519
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 3: that you do, but it does provide some other benefits.

520
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,719
Speaker 2: I love that. I mean, curating problems is a concept

521
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 2: that's near and dear to my heart. Like I think

522
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 2: that one of the best things about you know, quote

523
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 2: unquote financial independence. And I don't want to creep people out, like,

524
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 2: you know, there's there's a lot of like there's a

525
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 2: lot of baggage that comes with this term of financial independence.

526
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 2: So what I'm talking about when I say that is

527
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 2: like basically having enough money to choose how you spend

528
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 2: your time, just to just to put it in broad strokes,

529
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,439
Speaker 2: and so one of the best parts about that state

530
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,959
Speaker 2: of the world is being able to determine, you know,

531
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 2: just based on your soul discretion, what's worth your time

532
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 2: and what's not worth your time. And so it's not

533
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 2: like this abject refusal to ever earn a dollar again,

534
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: is just the state of the world where you can determine, like,

535
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 2: this is a problem that I really want to spend

536
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 2: some time on, This is something that animates me and

537
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 2: makes me feel good, versus this is something that I

538
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 2: wish somebody else would do, you know, because that's that's

539
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 2: this kind of illusion people think that like work is

540
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 2: the enemy. And you know, I can tell by the

541
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,479
Speaker 2: you know, the product that you guys create and how

542
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 2: much joy that it's obvious that you take in creating it,

543
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 2: that this is not something that's like, oh yeah, if

544
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 2: you'd you know, ten million dollars dropped out of the

545
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 2: sky tomorrow. It's not like Joel and Matt would be like, peace,

546
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 2: you guys are we're out last episode.

547
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:26,959
Speaker 4: It's coming out Today's out forever exactly like you you

548
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 4: would probably kind of keep on going, you know, maybe

549
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 4: at a reduced pace or something. I don't know, but

550
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 4: like you, you know, if you're creating something that you

551
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 4: actually like seeing in the world, then.

552
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be all about money. So I

553
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 2: hope that answers your question.

554
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely talk to us about mindset. And I

555
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: don't want to get super frefreu here or anything like that.

556
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 1: But like it's it's true that we're humans. We can't

557
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 1: necessarily change how we think overnight, and even if we did, right,

558
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: it wouldn't make our our paycheck fatter immediately. It doesn't

559
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: solve everything, but our mindset plays a role in the

560
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 1: kind of progress that we make. So so how do

561
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: you think about the scarcity mindset and how it can

562
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: it can maybe stemy our journey towards financial freedom, right,

563
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 1: like if we're if we're too focused on that, like,

564
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: oh man, my dollars are gonna run out, Like you

565
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: can almost create, uh, like mental problems. Are you ever

566
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 1: in our path actually free?

567
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 3: Right?

568
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: Yeah? Exactly?

569
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 2: And I think that's it's beautiful because you're pointing at

570
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: the fact that there's a ditch on both sides of

571
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 2: the road. You clearly don't want to be like setting

572
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 2: yourself up for a cat food retirement, you know, just

573
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 2: like completely blowing all your money on stuff you don't

574
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: care about. But likewise you don't want to, you know,

575
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 2: just wind up that guy who's got seven million dollars

576
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 2: in the bank and was you know, was not spending

577
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 2: any of it and and wasn't able to enjoy any

578
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: of it because like people, people missed that second leg

579
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: of the swap, that second leg of the transaction. You know,

580
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 2: if you're good about money, then you're building up your

581
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,479
Speaker 2: bank accounts, you're investing, you're doing all that type of stuff.

582
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 2: But like savings are always in everywhere, just delayed consumption.

583
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 2: Like that's all you're doing when you're saving money, is

584
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 2: your deferring it to some future date. And so that

585
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 2: scarcity mindset type of thing. People people kind of get

586
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 2: lulled into this this you know, false sense of things

587
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: when they think that, you know, budgeting is like a

588
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 2: symptom of a scarcity mindset or something like that. It's

589
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: not you're you're by by budgeting or by you know,

590
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: saving money or by you know, considering the future. I

591
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 2: think it's actually evidence of an abundance mindset because you're

592
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 2: you know, you're admitting to yourself that there is a

593
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: future worth saving for. And so I think I think

594
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 2: it's important for people to strike that balance the right way,

595
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: not spend too little, not spend too much, you know,

596
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 2: kind of try and find their own goldilock zone of

597
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 2: being able to you know, spend in a way that

598
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: is aligned with their goals is going to get them

599
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 2: where they want to be eventually, but be able to enjoy,

600
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 2: be enjoy think, be able to enjoy their lives along.

601
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: The way I did things backwards, I was like financial

602
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: independence a SAP. This was my mentality back in the day.

603
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 2: Was like, okay, financial independence asap and then happiness eventually.

604
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 2: And that was for me completely backwards. You know. I

605
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: wound up having to get off that train and realizing

606
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 2: that like, Okay, this is not sustainable, Like I'm going

607
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 2: to burn myself out before I get to you know,

608
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 2: fire or whatever it is. So I need to take

609
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 2: a more measured path, you know, build a machine that's

610
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 2: actually gonna be able to sustain itself all the way

611
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 2: to the conclusion.

612
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I think some of the saddest things to

613
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: me when I read some posts in the Fire reddit

614
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: forums and stuff of people who.

615
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 2: Win don't spend too much time there.

616
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right, no I don't. But I'll see a

617
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: case in the cautionary tale. Yeah, I'll see a cautionary

618
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: tale of somebody who who says, listen, I bought into

619
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: this hook line at sinkery, and I missed a bunch

620
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: of important time. I didn't go to the family events

621
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: that because I was too scared to buy a plane ticket.

622
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: My girlfriend dump me. That's the story, because I mean,

623
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: there's all of these kinds of stories out there that

624
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: You're right, there's a ditch on both sides, and so

625
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: that is like what we're always talking about here on

626
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: the show is the balanced middle where yeah, have a

627
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: have a high savings rate, but don't forsake the important

628
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: stuff in the meantime on the road, every day, every

629
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: minute is worth saving. And if we're if we're so

630
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: heavily focused on the future, and I think Matt and

631
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: now we've probably been there at different times too, maybe

632
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: not as much of an extreme as some of these

633
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: Fire adherents, but you're missing out on a lot of

634
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: the good and awesome things that you can enjoy now too.

635
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 1: Absolutely Okay, So.

636
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: What you talk about is how not only do we

637
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 3: need to own our saving and investing, but we also

638
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 3: need to own our spending. Right, And that's just the

639
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 3: language you give to being intentional with your spending, because

640
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 3: oftentimes folks are only focused on that acquiring side of

641
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 3: the equation as opposed to the spending side of it.

642
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 3: And so do you have any thoughts or any advice

643
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 3: for folks on how it is that they can transition

644
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 3: to spending more money? Right as folks are starting to

645
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 3: make that switch, you do have to be a little

646
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 3: more intentional with how it is that you're spending money.

647
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 3: Hopefull you are there are small ways that you are

648
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 3: spending even when you are young and you feel broke,

649
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 3: but there are these small, tiny, little splurges.

650
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: But it's yeah, it.

651
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 3: Exists on a spectrum. And as folks are achieving varying

652
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 3: degrees of financial freedom, how do you encourage folks to

653
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 3: think about spending more money than they're used to?

654
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 2: I mean, Step one is knowing what you value. Step

655
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 2: one is understanding you know, for you as an individual,

656
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 2: what are your priorities? What is it that you're actually

657
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 2: all about? You know? And so if that's time with

658
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: your family, or if that is, you know, building some

659
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 2: building towards some fulfilling mission in the world, whatever it is.

660
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: If you're spending money along those lines, then there's a

661
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: good chance that there's a fair amount of alignment. You know,

662
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 2: when I look at my habits, when I look at

663
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 2: the types of things that I'm spending my money on,

664
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: it's it's again, it's a two edged sword, because I'm

665
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: trying to simultaneously identify things the places that I can

666
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 2: trim the fat, so to speak, places that I go, oh,

667
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 2: I didn't realize I'm spending so much money there. Okay,

668
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 2: then I should probably tone that down, you know, let's

669
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: be more intentional on that its own. But I'm also

670
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 2: looking for places that I can double down. I'm looking

671
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 2: for places that I can go, Okay, this looks like

672
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 2: an unusually good deal, you know, this whatever date night

673
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: with my wife or a gym membership or or whatever

674
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: it may be. These positive habits, how can I lean

675
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 2: into that, and how can I find other things like

676
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: that that are aligned with my priorities and things that

677
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: I really want to to be more about. Because you know,

678
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: if you want to figure out what's important to somebody.

679
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 2: There's a good argument that you should just go look

680
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 2: at their you know, their credit card register and see

681
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: what they've been spending their money on.

682
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and their calendar whatever they've been spending their time.

683
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: To be exactly, we say something matters, Oh, time with

684
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: my kids matters. Well, I don't know how much time

685
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: are it?

686
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 2: Right?

687
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: Exactly? Like did you did you hop on the bike

688
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: with them this over the weekend or whatever? I mean?

689
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I love that you focus so much on time,

690
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 3: Ben because and you know, because you might look at

691
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 3: somebody's bank account and they may not actually be spending

692
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 3: their money, right, and so you have the ability to

693
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 3: see from their spending or specific from their lack of

694
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 3: spending that, man, what what is it that you actually

695
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 3: do value? Because there is a way to kind of

696
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 3: choke that off. Whereas the time that like our days,

697
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 3: no matter what, we are spending our time doing something

698
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 3: we're forced to no matter like, you can't stop time.

699
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 3: It is taking along no matter what. And so even

700
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 3: if your Netflix and chilling literally the whole day, yes,

701
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 3: or even if you have a completely you're like, oh

702
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 3: I can't wait for Saturday. The calendar is completely wide open, Well,

703
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 3: you're going to do something with that time is so

704
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 3: what you actually do with that I think does reflect

705
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 3: on what it is that that you truly do value.

706
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 3: I think if you were to sum it up like that,

707
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 3: we are kind of the sum of our habits, the

708
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 3: things that we spend our time doing. We kind of,

709
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 3: I don't know, become in a sense formed by those habits. Right,

710
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: And and there are some habits that have negative financial consequences.

711
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 3: In your in the software that you developed Chronify, you

712
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: talk about the impact of habits on our lives? How

713
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: do you do that in the software? And and then

714
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 3: how do you help people understand their habits and the

715
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 3: financial and time consequences of them?

716
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: Sure, I think, well, unsurprisingly, it's all about time. And

717
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 2: so when I think of when I think of a habit,

718
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: and you think about something as tricky as human behavior,

719
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: you know, changing a habit is not easy. And so

720
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 2: what we try and do is we try and you know,

721
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 2: marry together the left brain spreadsheety sort of numbers side

722
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 2: of the equation with the right brain, you know, holistic

723
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 2: emotional side of things. That's where you're going to make

724
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: all your decisions anyway, So let's work through. Like an example,

725
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: if you have a habit. Let's say you you know,

726
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 2: you're at the office. You you get like a fancy

727
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: sandwich at work for lunch or that type of thing,

728
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: and you're thinking about a habit change. You're going like, oh, okay,

729
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: my waistline and my budget are saying that maybe I

730
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: should maybe think about this habit. Then you might think

731
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 2: about packing lunch to work, for example. And if you

732
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: do that, then you may get to the end of

733
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 2: the month and you realize, like, okay, I save two

734
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 2: hundred dollars by packing my lunch to work instead of

735
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: buying this fancy sandwich. And if you do that, then

736
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 2: if you've made some progress and you've already kind of

737
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: accumulated some investments and stuff, you might look at your

738
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 2: brokerage acount at the end of the month and go

739
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 2: like it's up or down by five ten grand, and

740
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 2: it's like, why did I do this to myself? Why

741
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: did I deprive myself of this you know, midday treat

742
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: or whatever. But you're kind of missing the missing the

743
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 2: point because you're you're looking at and you're going two

744
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: hundred dollars versus ten grand. This is out of my control.

745
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: Why do I care? But the reality is the power

746
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 2: of habit, especially as it relates to time, is that

747
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 2: that you know, two hundred dollars a month is two

748
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 2: hundred dollars a month, and so that's twenty four hundred

749
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,479
Speaker 2: dollars a year, which if you're going to invest money

750
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 2: and try and live off your money forever, then that

751
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 2: requires you know, assume the four percent rule four percent

752
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: real return after taxes or whatever. Then you need sixty

753
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 2: thousand dollars to fund that habit in perpetuity. And so

754
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: it's no longer comparing this two hundred dollars savings with

755
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 2: you know this ten grand that your brokerage account went

756
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: up or down. You're comparing you know this, this ten

757
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 2: grand that your brokerage account went up and down with

758
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: a six sixty thousand dollars impact of this habit. And

759
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 2: so what we kind of do by looking at things

760
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: in terms of time is right, size all of this

761
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 2: and adjust for the fact that, look, if you if

762
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,280
Speaker 2: you decrease your expenses, then yes, you know, you're running

763
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 2: faster toward the finish line. But the beautiful thing is

764
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 2: when you metric it in terms of time, you also

765
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 2: see that the finish line is running towards you, because

766
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 2: if your expenses go lower, then enough is lower, and

767
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 2: if enough is lower, it takes less time to get there.

768
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,479
Speaker 1: Well, that sounds like, I don't know, make you feel

769
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: better knowing that not only are you ening closer, but

770
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: like the finish line is inching further in your direction too. Yes, Ben,

771
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: we got a couple more questions for you, including curious

772
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 1: to hear your take on paying for convenience you're essentially

773
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: buying time back. I would love to hear your thoughts

774
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: on that. We'll get to a couple questions on that

775
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: front right after this.

776
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 3: All right, back to our conversation with Ben Miller and

777
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 3: uh been right before the brake, Joel, you know we

778
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 3: were talking about your app Chronify. Personally, I was secretly

779
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 3: hoping that your one of your craft beer equivalents was

780
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 3: going to be watches, like like, because I don't think

781
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 3: we've ever had anybody on the show where they were like,

782
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 3: oh I like to collect vintage Rolex's or like, oh yeah,

783
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 3: I've got a bunch of pocket watches Omega Speedmasters or

784
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 3: something like that. I only say this because there's a

785
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 3: brief period of time where I really got into them

786
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 3: and I thought, is this something? Am I going to

787
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 3: be like a watch guy? And I was like, no way,

788
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 3: these things are way too expensive. It would be a

789
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 3: fitting hobby for you, though, Ben, it would be I

790
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 3: would be.

791
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,919
Speaker 2: I'm ashamed to say I've just got a fitbit. That's

792
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: that's what I'm wrong.

793
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 3: Hey, I've got a bracelet that my daughter made on

794
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 3: my rest. But been like different optimization gurus out there,

795
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 3: like they've kind of created a cult around productivity, and

796
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 3: oftentimes you can kind of enter that space when you're

797
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 3: talking about time and it's our belief that I think

798
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 3: oftentimes this goes overboard and it leads many folks to

799
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 3: just like a nose to the grindstone mentality where you

800
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 3: are foregoing any pleasures into here now. So you know,

801
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 3: some optimization is helpful, but do you think it can

802
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 3: be overdone?

803
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 2: Optimization is something that can absolutely be overdone. I think

804
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 2: people who are wired like I think you guys are

805
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 2: and like I am, you know, there's a there's a

806
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 2: temptation to really to really go ham on optimization, but

807
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 2: you got to you gotta make sure that you're you know,

808
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 2: accounting for your humanity here, Like, you're not a robot.

809
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: It's not a it's not a it's not a matter

810
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 2: of putting in the right code and then just executing

811
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 2: until you die. It's it's about finding something that's not

812
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,439
Speaker 2: only you know, going to get you where you're going

813
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 2: and do it on time, but also you know in

814
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 2: being able to enjoy and savor it all along the way,

815
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 2: because ultimately, like you get to the end of the

816
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: end of your life on your deathbed, all that matters

817
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 2: is human connection anyways. And so if you're if you're

818
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 2: optimizing for anything other than that, you're kind of messing

819
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 2: it up.

820
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 1: Hmm. I love that. Okay, let's talk about paying for

821
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: convenience because it's saving you time, right, which is, as

822
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 1: we said, kind of the most critical resource here. But

823
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: Americans are also spending a lot of money on convenience

824
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 1: that they might not be able to afford. I'm thinking, like,

825
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: some kinds of paying for convenience makes sense to me,

826
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 1: but then other kinds make a whole lot less sense.

827
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: Grub Hub, for example, I don't get it, like I'm

828
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: not going to do it, but then there are other

829
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 1: things where I do pay someone to let's say, mow

830
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: my lawn so that Saturdays I can spend on the

831
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: hiking trails or with kids doing activity stuff like that.

832
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on paying for comedians and where

833
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 1: do you draw the line?

834
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 2: Oh man, I'm kind of an aw shucks Midwesterner, and

835
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 2: so like I was feeling incriminated because, like I still

836
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 2: mow my lawn and it's probably a horrible.

837
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: Use of my time.

838
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 2: It's like I, I it's different for different people, you know.

839
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 2: For me, it's like I kind of look for those

840
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 2: two firs or three furs in life where it's just like, okay,

841
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 2: well it might be it might take me less time

842
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 2: to drive to the gym, but maybe it's you know,

843
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 2: I'm going there anyways to exercise, and so maybe I

844
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 2: should walk. For me, I look at mowing my lawn

845
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 2: and d'er kind of like a similar rubric where it's

846
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: just like, Okay, well I was going to get some

847
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 2: physical activity, I might as well, you know, do something,

848
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 2: do something productive with it. But in terms of paying

849
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 2: for convenience, I think it's all about your values. It's

850
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 2: all about you know, one, live within your means. That's

851
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 2: rule number one. If you're breaking that one, like sort

852
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 2: that out before we get into this stuff. But if

853
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,240
Speaker 2: you're able to live within your means, then it's about

854
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 2: figuring out what your what your values actually are. And so,

855
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 2: like I think of one of the habits that always

856
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: kind of comes up on the top of my charts.

857
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 2: It's a fast casual restaurant called Kava. It's kind of

858
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 2: like a Mediterranean interpol. Actually they just ipot and so

859
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: maybe more people think about them, and then I'm aware

860
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 2: of anyways, I think of that and I go, Okay,

861
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: well should I feel ashamed of this? You know, like

862
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 2: what are what are we doing here? And really what

863
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: it is is it's a way for us to put

864
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 2: food on the table that's you know, clean, healthy and

865
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 2: convenient without the cooking and cleaning and just be able

866
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 2: to kind of sit down with all five of us

867
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 2: as a family and enjoy ourselves. And so I look

868
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 2: at that and it's like, yes, we're paying more for convenience,

869
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 2: but for us, it's mission aligned and so it's it's

870
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 2: those convenience things. Is that's how I That's the rubric

871
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 2: that I evaluated under is does it align with my mission?

872
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 2: And can I afford it? And if both of those

873
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 2: come back. Yes, then go for it.

874
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: But do you get it delivered or do you go

875
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: pick it up?

876
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 3: Oh?

877
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 2: No, we pick it up.

878
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 3: We're not okay, we're not right. That's what I like

879
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 3: to hear. Ben doesn't have that delivery money. Like that's

880
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 3: a demarcation on the financial independent spectrum is how readily

881
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 3: are you ordering.

882
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: Food to be literally dropped? Are delivery?

883
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 3: Five?

884
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,879
Speaker 1: Yeah? Right? Yes, I don't know that I've ever got

885
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: enough money in my bank account to overcome like the

886
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: what's like what's built inside of me?

887
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 3: Right in particular, because if that doesn't align with your mission.

888
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 3: So like, I like how you said that, Ben, because

889
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 3: that kind of goes back to you know, when it

890
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 3: comes to how we should think about spending more money,

891
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 3: it's like, do I value this? It comes down to intention, yes,

892
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 3: because it makes me think about For a while there,

893
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 3: I was cutting my own grass because not because I

894
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 3: was afraid of spending the money, but because I wanted

895
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 3: my kids to see me cutting the grass. There is

896
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 3: a lesson there and seeing and for them, and I

897
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 3: literally made them, made them watch it.

898
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,439
Speaker 1: Sit here on this step and I'll watch it. Watch

899
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: that cuts.

900
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 3: But it's just I don't know that there's there's a

901
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 3: lesson to be to be taught there, and we're like,

902
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 3: we're doing something similar right now when it comes to cleaning,

903
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 3: cleaning the house, and because I'm like, we are in

904
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 3: a financial position to where we could clean the house,

905
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 3: but I want my kids to know what it is like,

906
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 3: what it's like to clean the house, for them to

907
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 3: pick up all their things, to dust their their blinds.

908
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 3: Like literally, we did that this past Saturday, and I

909
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 3: kind of I try to brainwash them a little bit.

910
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 3: We call it super Saturday, but it's where we it's

911
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 3: good branding and in the morning we go hog wild

912
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 3: and we go to town on the cleaning. Because I

913
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 3: we may not always do that, but at least for

914
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 3: a period of time and maybe and definitely who knows,

915
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 3: because maybe they'll get so good at it that I

916
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 3: don't know, they're able to like knock it out faster

917
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 3: and faster. But I think, like you said, man, if

918
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 3: you are able to align the mission of what it

919
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 3: is that you are doing with how it is that

920
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 3: you're spending money or not spending the money, I think

921
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,760
Speaker 3: think that can lead to the justification to be parted

922
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,800
Speaker 3: with your dollars. Whether again whether or not you're saving

923
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 3: money or whether you are actually spending that money. But

924
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, I think that's what's

925
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 3: at the core of this conversation.

926
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 2: I absolutely and to me, it comes back to curating

927
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: your problems because you know, you might opt into cleaning

928
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 2: the house while you opt out at mowing the lawn.

929
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,240
Speaker 2: That's just fine, you know. Like there, it's different strokes

930
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 2: for different folks, and it's something that everybody kind of

931
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 2: has to figure out for themselves. What's important to remember

932
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 2: is that it is this balance that needs to be

933
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: struck because you don't want to be, you know, just

934
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 2: completely di ying everything and shooting yourself in the foot.

935
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 2: You know by doing so. You don't want to be whatever,

936
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: stitching your own shoes and weaving your own clothes, you know,

937
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,479
Speaker 2: at least for most people. But at the same time,

938
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 2: you don't want to be outsourcing everything either, because if

939
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 2: you outsource every problem in your life, you've just gone

940
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 2: and outsourced your life. You need to participate in solving

941
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: some problems because otherwise, like frankly, there's nothing left to

942
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 2: life once you subtract, you know, all the problems. What

943
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 2: are you just gonna lay there blissed out and like

944
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: looking at the sky like there's there's.

945
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: Like Peter from office Space, right. I think some people

946
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: that's like kind of their goal is. I think I'm

947
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: gonna eventually get to that. But what you're alluding to

948
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: is our lives never run out of problems, they just

949
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: look different.

950
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And so it's it's about choosing which problems

951
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 2: you opt into and being able to choose that is

952
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 2: a wonderful thing.

953
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, Ben, this has been a great conversation. Man,

954
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. How can our

955
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: listeners find out more about about you, about your podcast

956
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: and about the Chronified software that you've created.

957
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we've got a podcast, the Quantify Podcast, aptly named,

958
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 2: and the main way is you can come and check

959
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 2: out Chronify. In fact, if you go to chronified dot

960
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 2: com slash how to Money, there's a twenty five percent

961
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 2: discount waiting for you. And that's that's good as long

962
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: as we're as long as we're alive and kicking. So

963
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 2: that that's the first month, it's it's good forever. So

964
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 2: I would love to I love what you guys are doing.

965
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 2: I love the podcast, I love you know, the awareness

966
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 2: that you guys are creating about the right way to

967
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 2: think about this stuff. And so I really want to say,

968
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 2: I appreciate you having me on.

969
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: Oh Man, No, we're glad. I'm glad to do it.

970
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: We're just too idiots learning on the fly. Honestly, as

971
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: we're having these conversations, we're and we're learning alongside our audience.

972
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 1: We're not here from some perch up above trying to

973
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: tell people how to live. And so that's why these

974
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: conversations are so informative, helpful for Matt and I and

975
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: hopefully for the audience too. So Ben, we appreciate you

976
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 1: coming on, man, Thank you, Thank.

977
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 3: You nice joel Man. It's always fun to talk with

978
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 3: somebody who is like missionally aligned, right, like Ben is

979
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 3: thinking about his money and his time in a similar way.

980
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: That we try to that we strive to at least.

981
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:44,959
Speaker 3: And I just said missionally aligned. And so I'm gonna

982
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 3: go actually gonna go ahead and give my big takeaway.

983
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,959
Speaker 1: Because stealing Ben's phrases now it is well.

984
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 3: One of the things that Ben said, like when it

985
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 3: comes to like that was the advice he had for

986
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 3: trying to determine what it is that you're going to

987
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 3: spend money on. He said, like what is it that

988
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 3: you value? And similarly, what is it like what is

989
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 3: your mission going to be? And this is a quick

990
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 3: plug for the how to money mission statement. It takes

991
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 3: some time. It takes a little bit of introspection, asking

992
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 3: yourself the right questions in order to figure out what

993
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 3: it is that your mission is going to be, in

994
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 3: order to figure out subsequently then what it is that

995
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 3: you're going to spend your money on. And so that

996
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 3: was my big, big takeaway, And that's not necessarily anything new,

997
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 3: and so I'm gonna I've got a new thought because

998
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 3: when it comes to a lot of times, folks come

999
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 3: to us with questions and they're like, Okay, should I

1000
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 3: pay off this debt or should I do something else

1001
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 3: with it? And oftentimes what we say is that it

1002
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 3: depends and specifically it depends on what you're doing without money.

1003
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 3: If you don't pay down that debt, right, it's like, sure,

1004
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 3: you could eliminate some student loans where you're paying seven percent,

1005
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 3: but are you then going to take that money and

1006
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 3: invest it where you're based on historic returns, you're going

1007
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 3: to earn at least seven percent, Because if not it

1008
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 3: might be a waste of money, right, And so let's

1009
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 3: take that same principle and apply it to time. I

1010
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 3: think that's another way that I'm going to start using

1011
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 3: to deter and whether or not something is worth me

1012
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,280
Speaker 3: spending the money on. Okay, I have now gained time

1013
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 3: in my life. I have essentially made time. Now what

1014
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 3: am I gonna do with that time? Am I going

1015
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 3: to use that time and funnel it towards things that

1016
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 3: are that I place a high value on, towards things

1017
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 3: that are missionally aligned with what I say are important?

1018
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 3: Or am I just gonna like sit around like like

1019
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 3: you know, I thought, like you were saying, am I

1020
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 3: going to end up on the couch browsing Netflix or

1021
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,240
Speaker 3: something like that, looking for you know, just ways to

1022
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 3: pass the time? Well, if that were to be the case,

1023
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 3: and that would be a poor use of spending that money. Right,

1024
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 3: If I pay somebody to cut the yard and instead

1025
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 3: I'm using that time to watch more TV. Well, you

1026
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 3: know what, if you're if you want to be like

1027
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 3: a movie critic or like okay, then it could be

1028
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 3: missionally aligned. But for the vast majority of folks, that's

1029
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 3: it's just a default thing because Oh, the sofa in

1030
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 3: the couch, it's comfortable. I'm gonna sit there. Oh, the

1031
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 3: remote is just right here. And it's just something you

1032
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 3: kind of fall into. Folks are like, we're so tempted

1033
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,919
Speaker 3: to just hit the easy button and we haven't thought

1034
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 3: through some of these more value driven ways that we

1035
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 3: could spend not only our money, but our time. And

1036
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 3: so that I just want to take that principle from

1037
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 3: money and I want us to also apply it to time.

1038
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 3: What are you then going to take the time that

1039
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 3: you've made or the time that you've saved. Is that

1040
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,240
Speaker 3: going to something that you actually value? Yeah, that's my big.

1041
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: Take I think my biggest takeaway was when he said,

1042
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 1: thinking in terms of time, it grants you ownership and permission, right,

1043
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: And so he gave the example of going out to eat,

1044
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: going on date night with his wife and how when

1045
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: he thought when he thinks of it as just dollars

1046
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: floating out, he gets nervous. Right, He's a reluctant spender,

1047
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: which I can identify with. But when he thinks about

1048
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: it in terms of oh, yeah, it's going to cost

1049
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: me some time off for retirement, off my future ability

1050
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: to not have to work well, actually it's not as

1051
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 1: big of a deal because this is a really important

1052
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: thing and I like my work. And so when it

1053
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: gave him actually the permission to spend money in a

1054
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,439
Speaker 1: way that he was reticent to do, and I thought

1055
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 1: of that as being really empowering. And I think when

1056
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 1: we think about what something costs us, not just in

1057
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: terms of dollars and cents, but also in terms of

1058
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: hours of the day, it can really help us to

1059
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: reframe whether or not that thing is worth it or not.

1060
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, it does it make sense to spend

1061
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 1: the money on a convenience or on a new item

1062
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: for your wardrobe. I don't know, think about your hourly rate.

1063
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: Maybe figure that out. We've talked about how to do

1064
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: that on a previous podcast, and think about it in

1065
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: terms of that Wait a second, is that new dress

1066
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 1: or that new sport code worth four point eight hours

1067
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: of my life? I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe that

1068
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: reframes the purchase a little bit, and it either helps

1069
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:41,800
Speaker 1: empower you to spend in ways that you do value

1070
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: or kind of puts the kaibash on spending in a

1071
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 1: way that you're like, eh, eh, I don't think it's

1072
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: worth it.

1073
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I love it man. Yeah, not surprisingly, our

1074
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 3: takeaways are related, like whereas I mean your specifically, I

1075
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 3: think what you're kind of getting at are the emotions

1076
00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 3: that can surround purchases, like feelings of freedom or empowerment,

1077
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 3: or feelings of regrets or reluctance when it comes to

1078
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 3: spending our money. But if you are able to identify

1079
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 3: the things that you value in life, it makes not

1080
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 3: only saving but also spending your money so much easier.

1081
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 3: And I appreciate that Ben focuses on that side of

1082
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 3: the equation as much as hopefully we do. I think

1083
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,439
Speaker 3: we spend a decent amount of time talking about That's

1084
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 3: why we talk about the craft beer equivalent, right, because

1085
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 3: we're looking for things from our guests that they valued,

1086
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 3: you know, we want to frame the conversation around that.

1087
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 3: It's not just about saving and investing as much as

1088
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 3: humanly plains.

1089
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 1: So I feel like in recent years I've been able

1090
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: to find more joy in spending in the ways that

1091
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: I care about, the ways that I say that I

1092
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: care about, instead of feeling reluctant to do those things,

1093
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,240
Speaker 1: largely through kind of changing my framework.

1094
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 3: But it's important to do.

1095
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned beer let's get back to the beer

1096
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: we had on the show. This is called aproguav Tasty.

1097
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 1: It's by the Veil and Veil. Of course, we like

1098
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 1: spending ridiculous amounts of money on good craft beer from

1099
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 1: time to time, this one being no exception. Or your

1100
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 1: thoughts on the spear map.

1101
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I like it in the label. It's not

1102
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 3: like an ice cream cone. It looks like like the graphic.

1103
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 3: It's like this rad ice cream cone guy, But it

1104
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily taste like sugart or anything like that. But

1105
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 3: this is one percent like a smoothie style sour lots

1106
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 3: of fruit going on.

1107
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 1: Man.

1108
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 3: This thing poured quite thick, and I was expecting it

1109
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 3: to be a bit sweeter, but it was not. It

1110
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 3: had like, I don't know, the kind of sweetness that

1111
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,280
Speaker 3: you would get from real fruit, which oftentimes isn't super

1112
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 3: sugary artificial but really tasted like fruit and beer form.

1113
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, there's no high fruit corn syrup

1114
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 3: sugars in here. This feels like all true fruit sugar

1115
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 3: sugariness that the guy going on here, but super good.

1116
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 3: I'm not normally a do you like apricots? Oh?

1117
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,439
Speaker 1: I was just about to say apricots are underutilized in beer.

1118
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 1: I think they're one of the best fruits to stick

1119
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: in a beer, and for some reason, very few people

1120
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:54,399
Speaker 1: use them.

1121
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 3: I'm not yeah, I'm not a huge How do you

1122
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 3: eat apricots? You get them like dried out where they're

1123
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 3: like the they're like gehn.

1124
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 1: I always get him in beer form. Oh yeah, like peaches.

1125
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: I feel like peaches are more normal, right, Like that's

1126
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: a I love peace. I don't know the last time

1127
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 1: I had an actual apricot. That was probably when I

1128
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: was a kid. Oh is it?

1129
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 3: I don't even know how to say it.

1130
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: You eat tomato? I don't know.

1131
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 3: Man, Yeah, it's not my favorite, but I definitely enjoyed

1132
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 3: it in beer for I'm glad you and I got

1133
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 3: to enjoy and you did taste some of those tropical

1134
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 3: guava notes going on there a little bit as well.

1135
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 1: But uh, and definitely like an interesting body inconsistency too.

1136
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: Talking about the thickness.

1137
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it truly is like it was like we're again,

1138
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 3: is like we cracked open an odwala and we're pouring

1139
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 3: one of those out or or naked juice. I don't

1140
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 3: even know if they make out Walla anymore. I don't

1141
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 3: know anyway, that's gonna be it for this episode. Enough

1142
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 3: about our beer. You can find the links that we

1143
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 3: mentioned up in our show notes at how tomoney dot com,

1144
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,280
Speaker 3: including the link to the special offer that the Ben's

1145
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 3: got out there for our listeners.

1146
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,879
Speaker 1: It never expires for the rest of time, which makes sense.

1147
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 3: It all fits together. Yeah, what do you do? You

1148
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 3: also wish that he would have said watches. Yeah, I

1149
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,720
Speaker 3: feel like that would have been to like batman villain

1150
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 3: ish if he was just like if he's like obsess

1151
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 3: with time, like flavor, Flavor keeps one on his neck. Yeah,

1152
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,439
Speaker 3: but that's gonna be it for this episode, buddy. Until

1153
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 3: next time, best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,