1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential, and sometimes controversialist. I'm Britney Spanis, now. 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 2: I'm Rob Sheffield. We're here to shed light on the 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 2: greatest songs ever made and discover what makes them so great, 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 2: and also to discover what makes Carol King the greatest 6 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: songwriter ever. And It's Too Late a classic of seventies 7 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 2: Carol King. 8 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, this episode is entirely about Carol. Carol's entries on 9 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: the list. I mean, when we were playing together a 10 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: list of the songs that we want to talk about 11 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 1: in episodes, we wanted to do. This was, I mean 12 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: a no brainer, I think for both of us to 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: do an episode dedicated to miss King. And as Taylor 14 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: Swift said in her induction of Carol at the Rock 15 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: and Roll Hall of Fame in twenty twenty one, she 16 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: is the greatest songwriter of all time. I think that's apparent. 17 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: Her main competition would be the Beatles, who never stop 18 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 2: saying that they started writing songs because they used to 19 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 2: see the Goffin King credit. They were looking at the 20 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 2: songwriting credits on the label and the two names that 21 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 2: always jumped out at them were Goffen King and Smokey 22 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: Robinson and that's why they started writing songs. And John 23 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: Lennon always said, when we started, we wanted to be 24 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 2: the Goffin King of England, and they kept that going 25 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 2: their entire career. 26 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there are two goffen King compositions on the list. 27 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: We have Aretha Franklin's You Make Me Feel Like a 28 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: Natural Woman, which lands at number ninety and the Charelles 29 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: Will You Love Me Tomorrow is at number one fifty one, 30 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: and then of course Carol's own hit It's Too Late 31 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: off of her seminal nineteen seventy one album Tapestry, lands 32 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: at number three forty six. So we are you know 33 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: just I mean, I think fans of every era of 34 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: Carol's songwriting and composing and her skills just from the 35 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: get go, from. 36 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 2: The get go, and that she became such a legend 37 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: behind the scenes in the sixties writing all these classic 38 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 2: songs for other artists from you Know, We Love Tomorrow, 39 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 2: like the Cherell's which is on the list, but One 40 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: Fine Day by the Chiffons, Some kind of Wonderful by 41 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: the Drifters, the Locomotion by Little Leva, so many classics 42 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: up on the roof by the drifters. Any of these 43 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 2: songs could be on the list. But for her to 44 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 2: step into her own voice in the seventies as a 45 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: singer songwriter, and it's funny that we know her voice 46 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 2: so well, but for all those people hearing Tapestry, it 47 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: was the first time they were hearing a voice that 48 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 2: they'd heard through her songs. Yeah, for all those years. 49 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 3: Yeah. 50 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: And of course I mean Tapestry as an album, and 51 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: we'll get even more into it as we talked about 52 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: this episode. But anyone who considers himself a songwriter, that 53 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 1: is an album that they immediately cite. I mean, I 54 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: can't think of a single artist on the charts right 55 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: now who would not immediately cite Tapestry as a foundational 56 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: text for them or the saying that they grew up 57 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: listening to is something that they learned how to write 58 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: songs from Carol as an composer, as a writer, is 59 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: I mean a blueprint forever, yes, yeah. 60 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: And for her to make that transition from a pro 61 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: songwriter the real building, the famous cubicles with people at 62 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 2: their desks with pianos just banging out songs minute to minute, 63 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 2: hour to hour, nine to five, and just getting so 64 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: many hits done at the same time. And for her 65 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: to go from that to the Laurel Canyon wearing denims, 66 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: hanging around with her cat, you know, in her Laurel 67 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 2: Canyon pad, to be photographed for the greatest album cover 68 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: of all time, Tapestry. Such a revelation for everybody in 69 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: music to hear an adult woman whose voice they didn't know, 70 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 2: who had not been famous when she was younger, but 71 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 2: who became as a thirty somethingter divorce, you know, like 72 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: with a lot of really hard living behind her already, 73 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 2: and hearing that in these songs and songs like It's 74 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 2: too Late or so far away, those are really adult 75 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 2: songs in a way that was totally new. 76 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 77 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: I mean, what I love about Carol's story is that, 78 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: I mean, she's incredibly talented, right, but it's kind of 79 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: like that kind of rare mix of incredible talent and 80 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: this amazing kind of gift of songwriting and musicality, but 81 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: also just like amazing timing and right place, right time 82 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: of like being part of two of the most formative 83 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: communities in rock music history. I mean, she grew up 84 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: in New York City. She you know, was going to 85 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: high school with Paul Simon, Neil Sadaka. She ends up 86 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: meeting Jerry Goffin, who becomes her husband and of course 87 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: her songwriting partner for this incredible decade where they you know, 88 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: basically were some of the biggest pimmakers of that time, 89 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,679 Speaker 1: but you know, they find themselves in that real building 90 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: community of songwriters that you know. Of course we talked 91 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: to Jeff Barry and are be my Baby episode who 92 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: was a part of that. I mean, this was like 93 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: a really really important time for pop music where there 94 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: was these brilliant young songwriters who were writing some of 95 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: the most classic songs, songs that are standards now that 96 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: they probably could not have even imagined would continue to 97 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: be as memorable and on the radio as they are now. 98 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, so many of the great writers who've come since then, 99 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: really every wave of songwriters since then has been so 100 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 2: inspired by those songs and trying to build on them. 101 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 2: So many of the people in the seventies who are 102 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: writing songs, who you know, worked with Carol King became 103 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 2: peers and Neil Young is a great example someone who 104 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 2: really took so much of his alotic sense was inspired 105 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: by Carol King's melodies, and that you know, he got 106 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 2: a lot of his early recording playing on songs that 107 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 2: she wrote, like for the Monkeys As We Go Along, 108 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: But that she had so many songs that were huge, 109 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 2: mega famous hits, like you said, standards, and yet for 110 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 2: every one of those, there's so many songs that are 111 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: deep cuts. I mean, it seems strange to call any 112 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 2: Carol Kings song a deep cut, but she was so 113 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,679 Speaker 2: prolific with such high quality over such a long time 114 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 2: that there's so many songs there like waiting for anybody 115 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:54,799 Speaker 2: to discover. 116 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, And of course the goffin King combo was Jerry 117 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: was Ryan Rics and Carol was composing the music for 118 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: these songs, and they ended up having their breakthrough with 119 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: of course will You Love Me Tomorrow on the list. 120 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: I mean, that is like the girl group standard and classic. 121 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: That is a song that I've grew up listening to 122 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: my entire family loves like. It's just like a devastating, beautiful, 123 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: gorgeous song that of course ended up becoming not only 124 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: the breakthrough hit for Carol and Jerry, but also ended 125 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: up hitting number one for the Charell's. They became the 126 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: first all African American, all female group to hit number 127 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: one on the charts, and that was a massive breakthrough 128 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: for everyone involved. I mean that song is something that 129 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: you know, is I feel like kind of every devastating 130 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: love song tries to be. 131 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, the Cherrelle is such an amazing story in themselves, 132 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: such heroic figures in so many ways, and the connection 133 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 2: between them and the Goff and Kings song is just 134 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: one of the amazing connections between groups and writers that 135 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,559 Speaker 2: they just they got each other's sensibilities on that level. 136 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: So even a song that's not as famous, like what 137 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: a Sweet Thing that was, which was a hit, you know, 138 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 2: not a major hits, not when you ever hear on 139 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 2: oldies radio or anything, but boy, if that was the 140 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 2: only collaboration that they had, that would be yeah itself. 141 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just that like that would be enough 142 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: like to still be considered legendary and kind of you know, 143 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: it would make the list no matter what. 144 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, Tonight's and Night another like brilliant like collaboration between 145 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 2: the Shrells and Goff and King and something that in 146 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 2: her melodies, his words, their voices, there was just so 147 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: much chemistry and so many different stories, and that's why 148 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 2: people go on listening to these songs and rewriting them 149 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: as time goes by. 150 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. And of course Carol and Jerry became some of 151 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: the most in demand songwriters of this time. I mean 152 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: they you know, until nineteen sixty eight when their marriage 153 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: dissolved and they stopped working together. I mean, they were 154 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: writing hits for everyone. Of course, they Wreatha Franklin song 155 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: You make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman would end 156 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: up becoming a signature song for Aretha, one that Aretha 157 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: even sang to Carol at her Candy Center honors a 158 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: couple of years before Aretha died, which is just a 159 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: beautiful performance to kind of witness Carol witnessing Aretha singing 160 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: that in honor of. 161 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: Her, Yeah, is super chal Yeah. 162 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: And I love the story of that song where it 163 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: was the Atlantic Records co owner and producer Jerry Jerry Wexler, 164 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: who just kind of had like an idea in his 165 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: car one day and was like, you know, it was 166 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: like thinking about like what a natural man is and 167 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: just like yelled at Carol and Jerry write a song 168 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: about a natural woman for Aretha. And then you get this, Yeah, 169 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: one of Aretha's best performances on record, I mean, which 170 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: is already a difficult task to even put what is 171 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: a great Aretha Franklin performance on record? But this one 172 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: just happens to be one of the best ones written 173 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: by Carol and Jerry, and it's perfect. 174 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 2: And one of the great moments. There's nothing but great 175 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 2: moments on the VH one Divas Concerts. Yes, yes, the one. 176 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: I not bring the hot first. 177 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 2: Ye, Yes, I knew it was coming. I thought i'd, 178 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: you know, like you know, Grease the Runway, but that 179 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: you have Carol King on stage and Aretha Franklin and 180 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 2: lots of other famous people who hate each other and 181 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 2: say really nasty things about each other in the memoirs, 182 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 2: no names coming to mind at the moment, but a 183 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 2: lot of ego on the stage and a lot of 184 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 2: competition on the stage, but just the sheer deference to 185 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 2: the fact that Aretha Franklin is there and Carol King 186 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 2: is there and they're singing this song. It's just really 187 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 2: just kind of a mind blowing moment. 188 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: I mean, I like, I mean, Aretha hut a lot 189 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: of beefs with people, which is one of my favorite 190 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 1: things about her. She never had one with Carol. I 191 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: don't think there's anything. She never had a bad word 192 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: to say about Carol that I cannot think of one. 193 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: And if she did, I don't want to know. I 194 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: don't want to believe they ever had anything. You know, 195 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: Aretha a lot of people she had words for, and 196 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: they were some of the funniest and best words ever 197 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: ever spoken by anyone. But she never had a Yeah, 198 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 1: the word frocks. 199 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that word ruined forever. 200 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: Like beautiful, beautiful gowns, beautiful. 201 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 2: Gowns, the shadeath the Franklin could put into one noun 202 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 2: and like change the history of that. 203 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: Now, even someone calling someone else a queen of anything. Yeah, 204 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: But she she had nothing but respect for Carol King, 205 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,719 Speaker 1: which I think is the highest amount of respect she 206 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: can get. Yes, absolutely, Franklin, Yes, respects. 207 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: You never put the word queen in your album title. 208 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 2: She will find a way to defeat you whatever it takes. 209 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: But yet a beautiful moment and just the connection between them, 210 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just really amazing. How and on Tapestry, 211 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,719 Speaker 2: a classic album, you know, it wasn't the first time 212 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 2: she made an album. She did the Writer album than 213 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 2: the album with the group The City. 214 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: I really loved the Writer album. 215 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 2: It's really really great. I know you love the City 216 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 2: album too. 217 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I love the Carol's Laurel Canyon years are 218 00:10:58,280 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: are just wow. 219 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah for such a quintessential like New York woman. Yeah, 220 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: like and Shan we went to LA because like Jerry Goffin, 221 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 2: like when the marriage like exploded and he was like, oh, 222 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,599 Speaker 2: I'm going out to LA So she decided, well she 223 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: should move there too, so we could have contact with 224 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 2: his daughters. You know, wasn't her decision to go there, 225 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: and it wasn't like he ran the decision by her. 226 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 2: She made this decision unilaterally for the good of everybody else. 227 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 2: So very Carol King wait to do it. But the 228 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 2: way she found to thrive out there and to make Tapestry, 229 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 2: and the famous scene of like she's in the studio 230 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 2: making Tapestry, it's the same studio where Joni Mitchell is 231 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: down the hall making Blue at the same time, and 232 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: the carpenters are down in the third studio and they're 233 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 2: making an album that has rainy days and Mondays on it, 234 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 2: which is you know, that's that's the closest they got 235 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 2: to a Carol King or Joni Mitchell type of song, 236 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: and James Taylor is in his studio a block away, 237 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: so he's bopping over to play on Jonie's album and 238 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: Carol's album. And like you said, this community that just 239 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: thrives around the music. 240 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's already incredibly lucky to find herself 241 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: in one great songwriter community. But Carol found herself in 242 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 1: two very exciting times in music. I mean going to 243 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: Laurel Kanyon in what was it nineteen sixty nine that 244 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: she moved there. Like if I could live anywhere at any point, 245 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: it would be nineteen sixty nine Laurel Canyon, Like it 246 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: would be like it would be that like hands down, 247 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: you know, like that was just I mean it was 248 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: like Joni and James and Carly and you know the 249 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: Crosby Stills, Nash and Young like it. It's all of 250 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: these incredible songwriters who would end up defining the next 251 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: you know, decade in a on of rock music, of 252 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: folk music. Is I mean, she found herself there and 253 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: found her voice, She found you know, her her singing voice, 254 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: her writing voice, you know, until this time again, like 255 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: she had been so much the composer to Jerry's words, 256 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: and so now this was kind of her finding that 257 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: voice in a multitude of ways. 258 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, with this group. 259 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: Of people who were writing albums that would go on 260 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: to not only be successful and classic, but end up, 261 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: i mean, the most important influences on pop music. 262 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely with Tapestry, where she is, you know, like you said, 263 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: already one of the biggest influences. And she's singing these 264 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 2: songs from her past, you know, in addition to like 265 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: all these like devastating new songs like It's Too Late 266 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 2: and so far Away, but she sings you make Me 267 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 2: Feel like a natural woman and will You Love Me Tomorrow? 268 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 2: And they're both. It's funny only in terms of time, 269 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: like just a few years past the original versions, but 270 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 2: you can hear that so much time is past. She's 271 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 2: been through so much since those songs were written. And 272 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: for people hearing Tapestry, it was the first time to 273 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 2: hear those songs and think, oh wow, this is the 274 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 2: woman who wrote these songs and who didn't have a 275 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 2: public voice until now. 276 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 277 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: She's this great story that she tells about how she 278 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 2: was on stage with James Taylor and it was his show. 279 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: She was just his pian player. She was too shy, 280 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: she never wanted to sing in public, and James Taylor 281 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 2: just without warning her, just told the crowd, you know, 282 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 2: this is Carl King. She wrote all your favorite songs. 283 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 2: You don't know her name, but you know all her songs, 284 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 2: and now she's going to sing up on the roof 285 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 2: for you. And he did not clear that with her, 286 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 2: and she was forced to just sit there and sing 287 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 2: up on the roof in front of other people for 288 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 2: the first time in her life and found out that 289 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 2: she loved it. Yeah, and they loved it where she did, 290 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: but everybody loved it. 291 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I love her version of will You Love 292 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: Me Tomorrow on Tapestry, I mean just like I mean, 293 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: given the Joni Mitchell background vocals on that song, which 294 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: already going to win me over, but I mean just 295 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: kind of that slowed down sort of devastating, like really 296 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: pulling out the sadness in that song and the kind 297 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: of longing in that song. It does so much remind 298 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: me of that kind of the re recording of both 299 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: sides now that Jonie does right where like she like 300 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: revisits this song that she wrote in her youth as 301 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: an older woman looking back and kind of adds a 302 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: new meaning to it. I mean, like you said, it 303 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: wasn't that long in between, but still kind of feels 304 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: like a lifetime and feels like so much has passed 305 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: in between those two moments on like the Charrell's version 306 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: plus Carol's own take on it. 307 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and those are just you know, she learned 308 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 2: how to write songs by writing for other voices, So 309 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 2: she wrote all these songs with Goffin, with Tony Stern. 310 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: All these voices have heard themselves in these songs, and 311 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 2: so many amazing different, weird cover versions of all these 312 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 2: songs just people hearing them and saying, yeah, this is 313 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 2: my voice. And Carol King just writes in that way 314 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 2: that people just hear themselves in it. It's funny a 315 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 2: song that from Tapestry that stands out on the album 316 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: just because Tony Stern's lyric is very different. But where 317 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 2: you lead yeah and the Gilmore Girls, Yes, the song. 318 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 2: Carol King over the year, she talked about that song 319 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 2: and she thought it was outdating when they did it 320 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 2: on Tapestry, that it was you know that she thought 321 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 2: it was so subservient to the man in the song 322 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 2: and it does like it's really an outliar on the album. 323 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 2: There aren't any other songs that are just like you know, 324 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 2: I'll follow you around. And it was only years later 325 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: when it became the Gilmore Girls theme that Carol King 326 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 2: has always said, that's what she realized what the song 327 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 2: was always about, that it was always meant to be that, 328 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 2: and Tony Stern was like, yeah, let's redo this, Let's 329 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 2: make it the mother daughter song that was always meant 330 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 2: to be and sang it with Louise Goffin and for 331 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 2: her to take this song that was already out there 332 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: in the world and the song story changed just because 333 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 2: of the way people heard it. To me, that's a 334 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 2: beautiful tribute to Carol King as a songwriter that this 335 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: song could totally transform and we always think of it 336 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 2: as a mother daughter song now, Yeah, I mean, you know, 337 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 2: like that's really what. 338 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 3: It was like. 339 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 2: She said, that's what the song was always meant to be, 340 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 2: and took Gilmore Girls for her to hear that. 341 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's kind of the beauty of her 342 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: talent and her legacy. I mean, I guess maybe the 343 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: different that comes from her experience versus someone who starts 344 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: off as a performer write and starts off as like 345 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: someone whose songs they're writing for themselves, that they're performing. 346 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: Is that she has like this innate understanding of all 347 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: the possibilities a song can hold, Like she has this 348 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: sort of innate understanding of the idea that there is 349 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: so much beauty to someone else singing that song and 350 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: what they can curry to it, and that these versions 351 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: can coexist, and that it's meant to evolve, and it's 352 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: meant to change. It's meant to you know, turn into 353 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: and morph into so many things as it ages and 354 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: is allowed to exist in so many different formats. So 355 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: I think that's always been the beauty of watching kind 356 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: of Carol react and allow her songs to be used 357 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: in all these different ways and even rework them herself. 358 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: And like you mentioned with the Gilmore Girls version and 359 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: even just her own versions of will You Love Me 360 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: Tomorrow and her version of One Fine Day and you 361 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: know of you make you feel like a natural woman, 362 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: like she is not trying to take away from the 363 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: original versions of the song. She's like letting them kind 364 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: of grow and mutate as their too. 365 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a brilliant point that you make and 366 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 2: so crucial that she was a writer before she was 367 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 2: a performer or ever thought she'd be a performer. You know, 368 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 2: James Taylor and Joni Mitchell, they were singing in front 369 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 2: of people before they even wrote songs. They were entertaining 370 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 2: with the guitar. But she was a songwriter who commuted. 371 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 2: She took the subway into to write the songs and 372 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 2: would look at people and could walk around unnoticed like 373 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,239 Speaker 2: a regular person. She's always told the story of the 374 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 2: song Beautiful and how she came up with the idea 375 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 2: for that song while she was writing the subway on 376 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 2: her way to work. You know, it's certainly not something 377 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,479 Speaker 2: James Taylor, Joni Mitchell, like, they were so famous they 378 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 2: couldn't just you know, ride the subway and come up 379 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 2: with ideas for songs. But Carol King always had that 380 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: and never lost that. 381 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's why the crazy stat I had 382 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: no idea was like the actual stat But I mean, 383 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: Tapestry was the for over forty years, kept the lexi 384 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: of being the best selling album by a solo female artist, 385 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: and it was only broken by Adele twenty one, which 386 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: is like insane that that was, like how long it 387 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: was able to happen. I mean, it's very clear just 388 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: because all these songs are such incredible classics. And again, 389 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: like talk to any I mean, we've interviewed so many 390 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: artists that I mean, I can't even count the amount 391 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: of times that Carol King has been brought up without 392 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: me having to bring her up, which I'm happy to do, 393 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: but you know, like the amount of times that it 394 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: comes up in no matter what age, what generation, where 395 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: they're from, Tapestry Carol, she is brought up constantly, and 396 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: I know you have the same. It was like exact 397 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: experience with so many artists you've spoken to. 398 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: She's always the standard that you know a songwriter wants 399 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 2: to reach, whether that's Jonan and Paul McCartney in the 400 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 2: sixties or you know, like Adele and Taylor Swift, you know, 401 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 2: like the in the twenties. It's always that ideal of 402 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 2: like a songwriter who is very pop and very real 403 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: at the same time. I mean, I didn't know that 404 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: about how she held a record and a Dell broke 405 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 2: it and it's such a that's so perfect and simple. 406 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: You know, Adele would be the first one to say that. 407 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: Adel would probably I mean at twenty one is Tapestry. Yeah, 408 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: we are joined now by singer, songwriter, environmentalist, all around 409 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: legend Carol King. Thank you, thank you so much. We 410 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: are both so excited to have you on here. 411 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 3: Thank you. It's a pleasure to see you and talk 412 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 3: with you. 413 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: Before we get into some of the songs that we 414 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: talk about in this episode. I mean, you are, for 415 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: so many people a songwriting and composition blueprint. I'm curious 416 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: for you when you first started out and started exploring 417 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: that talent for yourself. Who were your blueprints and influences. 418 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 3: Well, my influence just go way back before there was 419 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 3: a Rolling Stone magazine, certainly before you guys, But my 420 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 3: earliest influences were Broadway. My mom, she loved theater and 421 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 3: she took me to Broadway shows. And I think my 422 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 3: all time favorite song is called Hello Young Lovers. It's 423 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 3: by Richard Rogers and Oscar Hammerstein the third The melody 424 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 3: is so simple, the chords are unexpected, and I love that. 425 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 3: I loved that so much that I tried to do 426 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 3: that in my whole songwriting career. And the lyric, I mean, 427 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 3: it's just such a simple, beautiful song. And any song 428 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,360 Speaker 3: in West Side story. Those are some of my early influences, 429 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 3: you know. And then rock and Roll happened when I 430 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 3: was only thirteen, and I used to listen to Alan 431 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 3: Freed's show, and that was my first introduction to R 432 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 3: and B. And I loved the fusion between music from 433 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 3: the black community. I had never heard any of that. 434 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 3: I was like, whoa, and that was Alan Freed brought 435 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 3: that to my generation. So I was highly influenced by that. 436 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: And how did you sort of begin to bridge the 437 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: those two parts of yourself, the influence from Broadway and 438 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: the influence of you know, people like Steven Sondheim with 439 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: rock and rolling, with R and B, how did you 440 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: kind of find a way to connect those Well. 441 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 3: I was like a sponge. I would hear music and 442 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 3: I would take it in and incorporate it into my being. 443 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 3: And I have this gift of channeling it out and 444 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 3: being able to take it in and put it out. 445 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 3: And that's how I wrote songs as a melody writer. 446 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 3: I wasn't writing lyrics then, and the lyrics I wrote 447 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 3: when I first started out, before I met Jerry Goffin 448 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 3: were terrible, you know. They were like baby, baby, baby, 449 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 3: babysitting I'm a baby baby. It really is a gift 450 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 3: that I have to take in the kind of music 451 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 3: that I want to be writing. If I'm writing for 452 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 3: an artist, I put myself in the mind and the 453 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 3: vocal range. I just sort of get inside that artist, 454 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 3: and I'm able to write for an artist in that way. 455 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 3: I can still do that. I haven't been writing very 456 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 3: much lately, but I've had occasion to write a couple 457 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,239 Speaker 3: of things, and it made me very happy to know 458 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 3: I can still do that. It's just part of my 459 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 3: being that I can do that, and I'm blessed and grateful. 460 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 2: Thank you. Those songs are part of our being. We 461 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 2: love to argue over our favorites because you've written so 462 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 2: many classics, in so many different styles and in so 463 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 2: many eras. Some of them songs that you sang, some 464 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 2: of them songs that other people saying. So we can 465 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 2: argue about our favorite Carol King songs forever. It's almost 466 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 2: difficult to even guess, like which ones are the ones 467 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 2: that are your favorites. 468 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,239 Speaker 3: You know, it's hard to have a favorite because there 469 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 3: are so many songs that I wrote that I really love, 470 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 3: and I'm really honored that you chose three of them 471 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 3: to be in your top five hundred, that's pretty amazing. 472 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 3: And there Will You Love Me Tomorrow? And a Natural 473 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 3: Woman and both of which Jerry wrote the lyric for, 474 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 3: and It's Too Late, which the lyric was written by Ms. 475 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 3: Tony Stern. But it's hard to pick a favorite because 476 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 3: it's like which is your favorite child? You know, I 477 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 3: have four children, and I don't have a favorite. I 478 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 3: love them all. Speaking of children, two of my children 479 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 3: are in the music business. One is Louise Goffin, who 480 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 3: is a songwriter in her own writer. And not only 481 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 3: is she's a songwriter, but she founded the Goffin King Foundation, 482 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 3: which is dedicated to empowering songwriters. 483 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 2: She's a legend in her own right. 484 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, kind of, you know, But I wanted to mention 485 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 3: this songwriting because I think it's so amazing that she's 486 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 3: taken on this mission of sort of bringing it to 487 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 3: new generations and inspiring new generations of songwriters. Yeah. Lets 488 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 3: just check out the Goufin and King Foundation. 489 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 2: Thank you. 490 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 3: Yeah. 491 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: And to speak to the songwriting legend of your daughter's parents, 492 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm curious what the chemistry or working sort 493 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: of way that you and Jerry would write songs together. 494 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: Was it something where you know he would work on 495 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: a lyric first, or would you work on a composition first, 496 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 1: or would it be kind of simultaneous and kind of 497 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: at once where you would build a song like will 498 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: you Love Me Tomorrow? Together? Or you make Me feel 499 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: like a natural woman together? 500 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 3: In that way, every song is different, even with the 501 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 3: same writer. For example, Tony Stern put the lyric to 502 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 3: It's too Late, She handed it to me. I put 503 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 3: it on the piano, on the typewritten page. You know, 504 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 3: on the piano. The music just came out of me. 505 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 3: And if you think about it, like if you just say, 506 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 3: stayed in bed all morning just to pass the time, 507 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 3: there's something wrong here. There can be no denying. You 508 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 3: can almost hear the music, or I could certainly just 509 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 3: by saying it as I'm playing the piano. The music 510 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 3: just came, and that that song got written with will 511 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,239 Speaker 3: You Love Me Tomorrow? Again? I think Jerry wrote the 512 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 3: first verse first, and I don't remember if it happened 513 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 3: literally the way they depicted in the show. I don't 514 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 3: know if it was overnight or not. But I remember 515 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 3: seeing that first verse in his handwriting and the music 516 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 3: came and I remember thinking, this is a funny story. 517 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 3: I remember thinking when I was writing it, it kind 518 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 3: of almost sounded like a country song. But then, you know, 519 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 3: it turned out it wasn't for a number of reasons. 520 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 3: But I heard later in later years that the Cherelles 521 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 3: didn't want to do it because it sounded to country. 522 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 3: That's the thing that I've never put together. Yeah. 523 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 2: Wow. 524 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: I mean there's also that those incredibly lush string arrangements 525 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: that I know that you arranged for that song. Can 526 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about kind of adding that 527 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 1: layer which makes it predecidedly kind of further away from 528 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: those sort of country influence roots from it. 529 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 3: Right. There was a hit then called there Goes My Baby, 530 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 3: which I think was Benny King's first hit as a 531 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 3: solo artist after the Drifters. He left the Drifters, and 532 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 3: that was I believe produced by lebre and Stoller, Jerry 533 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 3: Leeber and Mike Stoller, and they got an arranger and 534 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 3: again I think that was Stanley Applebaum, but it had 535 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 3: strings on it. Here's this great R and B singer singing, 536 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 3: you know, there goes my Baby, and you have timpany Oh, 537 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 3: you know these are orchestral instruments, and they are putting 538 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 3: it on a rhythm and blues song sung by a 539 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 3: black singer, and you know who sings from the church, right, 540 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 3: They've put it all together. And Jerry and I heard 541 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 3: that and we were floored. And I think that's what 542 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,120 Speaker 3: made us decide to use strings on it. I don't 543 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 3: think that came from the producer. I think we wanted 544 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 3: to put strings on it. 545 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, he wrote so many great songs for the Cherells. 546 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 2: My personal favorite is what a sweet thing that was? 547 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: Like that song just destroys me. You have so many 548 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 2: songs like that that you wrote for those artists that 549 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: we think of as the girl group artists from that era, 550 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 2: that gave them this voice from your melodies. 551 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 3: Well, thank you. Yeah, that resonated. You know, first of all, 552 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 3: I'm a girl. But Jerry wrote the lyrics, and he 553 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 3: also wrote the lyrics I'm going to do what you 554 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 3: call segue. He wrote the lyrics to you make me 555 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 3: feel like a natural woman. He also wrote not with me, 556 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 3: saving all my love for you. So he seemed to 557 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 3: have that gift of getting inside the head of anybody 558 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 3: of any gender, of any you know age. He had 559 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 3: that same gift that I have for music that he 560 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 3: had for lyrics. And I don't know how we found 561 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 3: each other in the universe, but I'm really grateful that 562 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 3: we did. 563 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I've always been so in love with and 564 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,239 Speaker 1: kind of obsessed with this community of songwriters that you 565 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,479 Speaker 1: were part of in Laurel Canyon and as you were 566 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: working on your first two albums, finding James Taylor and 567 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: Joni Mitchell and of course Tony Stern, who who was 568 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: very instrumental in those first two albums. I'm curious kind of, 569 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: you know, thinking about you know, you and James and 570 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: Joni and how foundational those albums that you worked on 571 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: around then the songs that you've written. Could any of 572 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: you have imagined the kind of longevity and staying and 573 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: remaining influence and impact that the music you were writing 574 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: in Laurel Canyon and during that era would have. 575 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 3: The answer is no, we didn't. We were too busy 576 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:16,239 Speaker 3: being that community. That's true of the songwriter era in 577 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 3: New York. I was again, you know, I feel fortunate 578 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 3: to have met Jerry Goffin, and I was in the 579 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 3: right place at the right time for the birth of 580 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 3: rock and roll and the birth of the songwriter era. 581 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 3: There was a songwriter era before me, in the thirties 582 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 3: and forties. You know, you sort of visualize the music 583 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 3: publisher and the elevator, you know, and the songwriter saying, hey, 584 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 3: I got this great song, you know, in one of 585 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 3: the buildings, in the real building. That's a real thing. 586 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 3: But that predated when I was coming of age. And 587 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 3: so when I was coming of age, I literally could 588 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 3: walk into the office of Atlantic Records, which I think 589 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 3: was populated with Jerry Wexler, Armitt Erdigan, Armitt's brother, and 590 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 3: Miriam I forget her last name, who was their accountant. 591 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 3: So I could walk in and they had a piano, 592 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 3: and I could sit down and say, want to buy 593 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 3: a song? You can't do that anymore, But so that 594 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 3: was then, and again I didn't know I was part 595 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 3: of a thing, you know. And the same thing was 596 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 3: true in Laurel Canyon. When I moved out there, there 597 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 3: was a music business in California that was totally film oriented, 598 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 3: right because Hollywood and the music business in California before 599 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 3: that era was people writing songs for movies, right. And 600 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 3: then just before I got there, there started to be 601 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 3: record companies, little independent record companies like Liberty Records, and 602 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 3: I think that was Bobby Vee's label. And so when 603 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 3: I got out there, other people were coming there with 604 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 3: their guitars, and Peter Asher moved out there, and there 605 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 3: was this whole community in Crosby Stoles and Nash and 606 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 3: Jonie and Bonnie Raid and all the people that you 607 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 3: know were I don't know if she lived out there, 608 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 3: but she, you know, she was part of the people 609 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 3: that played at the Troubadour. And so that was another 610 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 3: thing that was being born, which is the music business 611 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 3: apart from films. And I was there for that too. Again, 612 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 3: like thank you, I had that gift that was able 613 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 3: to rise to the occasion. I also work hard, you know, 614 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 3: I did the work, but it's a coming of good 615 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 3: fortune and a gift. 616 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 2: You've this great story in your book A Natural Woman, 617 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 2: which I love, where you're talking about singing when you 618 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 2: hadn't planned on singing in front of people that you 619 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 2: were just playing piano with James Taylor and he just 620 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 2: put you on the spot and made you sing a song. 621 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 2: And for you to go from a writer for other 622 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 2: artists to finding your own voice as a performer as 623 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 2: well as a writer that symbolized such a huge change 624 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 2: in terms of how people experience music to this day. 625 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was. And I guess I don't consider myself 626 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 3: a great singer. I think I've learned how to be 627 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 3: a really good singer. I really do think I've learned 628 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 3: how to how to be that, and there are skills 629 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,239 Speaker 3: like that you put to work in service of that. 630 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 3: But I am a channel, and I was, as a writer, 631 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 3: the vehicle to present the song to the publisher, to 632 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 3: the artist, to the arranger, and the transition to becoming 633 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,959 Speaker 3: the person to present it to the world. James knew this, 634 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 3: That's why he put me on. Lou Adler knew this, 635 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 3: that's why he signed me. Other people who signed me 636 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 3: saw this. I never saw the connection that all I 637 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,959 Speaker 3: had to do was be the same channel I was 638 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 3: in singing it for an artist or a producer or 639 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 3: an arranger or a band, and that's all I did. 640 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 3: But when I happened to do that on Tapestry, it 641 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 3: was the right thing, and people went, oh, this is authentic, 642 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 3: this is real, This is speaking to me from somebody 643 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 3: who's just like me. And that's I think that's how 644 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 3: the transition happened. But I never thought of myself. To me, 645 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 3: there was a barrier between me and an audience that 646 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 3: was any bigger than a room full of people who 647 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 3: I was playing a song for. And I learned from 648 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 3: James that there is no barrier. 649 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Carol, Yeah, thank you. 650 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 2: I don't even know how to begin to thank you 651 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 2: for all the songs, Sweet Season maybe my favorite, like 652 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 2: so Far Away. These are deeply embedded in our lives. 653 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 3: I appreciate that. And honestly, I hear from people all 654 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 3: the time, and people come up and they say this 655 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 3: when they'll name a song or their name tapestry and 656 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 3: they say that meant so much to me. And I 657 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 3: bet you've heard that a million times, and I've honestly 658 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 3: gotten to the place where I really know. But you're 659 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 3: telling me that for the first time, and so I'm 660 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 3: saying that to you. Thank you, I hear you, I 661 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 3: feel you, and I love you. 662 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you so much, so much, Thank you 663 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 2: so much for listening to Rolling Stones five hundred great songs. 664 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 2: This podcast is brought to you by Rolling Stone and iHeartMedia. 665 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 2: Written and hosted by me, Rob Sheffield and Britney Spanos. 666 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Gus Winner, Jason Fine, alex Dale and 667 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 2: Christian Horde, and produced by A Cannon, with music supervision 668 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 2: by Eric Zeiler.