1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest. 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: His name is Francis Greenburger. He is perhaps best known 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: for popularizing the idea of the cooperative as opposed to 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: the condominium in residential real estate development. This is a 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: really fascinating conversation if you're all interested in um real 7 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: estate development, how projects move forward, some of the challenges 8 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: in dealing with the market cycle and credit availability, and 9 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: pretty much anything related to what could throw plans off 10 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: for for building a a big building, You're gonna find 11 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: this conversation to be absolutely fascinating. So, with no further ado, 12 00:00:54,760 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: my conversation with Francis Greenburger. My special guest today is 13 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: Francis Greenberger. He is a real estate developer, an author, 14 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: a former literary agent, and a philanthropist. He is the 15 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: founder of Time Equities, one of the larger real estate 16 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: developers here in Manhattan and New York City. Perhaps he 17 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: is best known as the creator of the residential co op. 18 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: His autobiography is Risk Game Self Portrait of an Entrepreneur. 19 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 1: Francis Greenberger. Welcome to Bloomberg. Thanks Berry, So I'm kind 20 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: of fascinated by your background and your history, and we're 21 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: gonna get into a lot of the details, but the 22 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: obvious question, what sparked your interest in in real estate 23 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: coming from a background working in the book business. It 24 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: was pretty intuitive. I remember to this day, I was 25 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: walking down the streets looking at buildings, looking at architecture, 26 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: thinking about built environs, and thinking about real estate and 27 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: New York and realized that I had some sort of 28 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: visceral connection with it that defied my background or any 29 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 1: particular particularly logical connection with my past. So in your 30 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: book Risk Game, you wrote something that stayed with me. 31 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: Quote the real estate industry has created far more bankruptcies 32 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: than billionaires unquote. Explain that well, I think, uh, um, 33 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: if if you look around New York and I was 34 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: walking here or past, for instance, Harry Macklowe's gallery on 35 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: Park Avenue, you know Harry, who I know is how 36 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: has had a mixed career. He's had some incredible successes, 37 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: but he's had some incredible failures, all in New York 38 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: City real estate. So, uh, it's about timing, it's about risks, uh, 39 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 1: and it's about what you choose to do or not do. 40 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about timing and risks. 41 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: You bought a piece of lands down at fifty West 42 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: Street back in the eighties with the plan to either 43 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 1: develop it or redevelop it in the future, and then 44 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: that piece of property lived through September eleven and the 45 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: Great Financial Crisis. Tell us a little bit about your 46 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: history with fifty West. Okay, Actually, when I bought it, 47 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking of redeveloping it. I was thinking of 48 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 1: it more as an income property. And it was fully 49 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: leased and I think it made about a ten percent return, 50 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: So it looked like something I could just hold on 51 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: to and over time watch rents go up and hopefully 52 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: expenses keep stable and have growing income and growing value. 53 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: Um around uh uh in the nineties, we lost some 54 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: tenants and uh New York was just beginning to think 55 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: about downtown as a mixed use environment. I mean that 56 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 1: was very non residential back in the day, right, a 57 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: non residential, although Battery Park already existed. And um there 58 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: was something called the Giuliani Plan which offered tax benefits 59 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: if you converted commercial properties to residential. So we were 60 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: actually started to convert part of the building and was 61 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: I think one of the first properties to qualify under 62 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: that plan UM by nineteen. By two thousand and five, 63 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: we had maybe converted half the building, but there was 64 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: a lot of major work that we needed to consider, 65 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: and we realized that the sighting of the building was 66 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: such that if, if, ah, if we demolished it and 67 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: build a new building, there would be extraordinary views available 68 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: from the apartments. So we began to study that as 69 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: an option. And you spend a lot of money on 70 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: architects just even thinking about this, right, we spent you know, 71 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: one of the surprises when you go into development is 72 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 1: land as a expensive well, preparing plans is very expensive. 73 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: And we developed full plans for the building, which at 74 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: that point was to be a hotel and uh condominium 75 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: apartment complex um, but our plans got interrupted by the 76 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: course of events in the financial world. So let's talk 77 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: a little bit about that. Here's a building that you're 78 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: racing to meet the deadline for certain tax advantages. You've 79 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: already built the foundation, you've sunk a lot of the 80 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: main support beams, but you haven't started building the building itself. 81 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: And then September eight, Lehman Brothers collapses into bankruptcy, and 82 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: I think you were talking about a five million dollar 83 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: financing for the whole project from start to finish. What 84 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: did the collapse of Lehman Brothers due to that development? Well? 85 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:57,359 Speaker 1: I recognized almost immediately that building into that kind of 86 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: financial environment would be a disastrous So I made the 87 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: decision very quickly to pull the plug, halt development and 88 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: wait for a better day. In other words, not actually 89 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: give up the property, but hey, let's postpone this project 90 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: until credit freeze up a bit. Credit freeze up, and 91 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: credit is only one part of the equation. If it's 92 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: for sale housing the way this was condominiums, there had 93 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: to be a willing market to buy it, because otherwise 94 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: you might have the financing, but you haven't wouldn't have 95 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: a way to pay it back. Makes sense. So but 96 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: that ran into a problem almost immediately, didn't it. Yes, 97 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: I had a little misunderstanding with with the bank who 98 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: had financed the foundation construction for me, uh even though 99 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: I had told them what I was doing, and they 100 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: seemed to concur all of a sudden. In January, they 101 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: sent me a letter saying I was in default because 102 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: my loan required me to continue building no matter what 103 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: And of course I called him and crazy anyway, I 104 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: don't really know what was going on. Within a couple 105 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: of weeks they backed off and we renegotiated the agreement 106 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: to allow for the interim period that would be needed 107 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: until the market was was suitable and both from a 108 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: financing point of view as well as a buying point 109 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: And how did the building ultimately turn out? Well, it 110 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: turned out very, very well. One of the things that 111 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: I found so fascinating in your book Risk Game was 112 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: how razor thin the margins were for building properties and 113 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: the constant search for cash and financing. Is that a 114 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: fair description of commercial real estate in the nineties seventies 115 00:07:51,920 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: or generally, Well, I would say generally. And it also 116 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: depends on the nature of what you're developing. So if 117 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: you are in a generic kind of marketplace with generic ideas, uh, 118 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: not surprisingly, competition is fierce and the margins are highly compressed. 119 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: When you say generic marketplace, what are you referring to, Well, 120 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: for example, New York City, which for the last ten 121 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: or fifteen years has been considered or one of the 122 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: best investment markets in the world. So capital from everywhere, 123 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: every corner of the world wants to be here, so 124 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: there's fierce competition and cap rates get compressed. However, at 125 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: the same time, if you go to other regions of 126 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: of of the United States or internationally, you'll find a 127 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: different picture, market by market, submarket by submarket. Very very interesting. 128 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: In one of the things I thought was fascinating heading 129 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: into the financial crisis was a similar situation where a 130 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: lot of global money was looking for returns. Much of 131 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: it found its way to New York real estate development, 132 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: and I heard a lot of real estate deal lawyers complain, Gee, 133 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: the r O I s, the return on investments on 134 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: all these projects seem to be getting more and more compressed. 135 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: Is that a fair description of what was what you 136 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: saw leading up to the O eight collapse? Uh? Very 137 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: much so, although I have to say that it's not 138 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: only leading up to the two thousand and eight collapse. Uh. 139 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: It's prevalent in markets that are in great favor. Um. 140 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: Uh really on a continuous basis. So um it's just 141 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: that competitive. You know, if you go to Toronto today, 142 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: which is one of the uh one one of the 143 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 1: biggest development markets in North America has been probably for 144 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: fifteen or twenty years, you'll find that um. The profit 145 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: margins on development are around twelve that's probably half of 146 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: what it would be even in New York. Really it's 147 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: that tight. So one of the things that was so 148 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: surprising about the financial crisis from a real estate perspective 149 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: I had I have always thought of developers as being 150 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: somewhat countercyclical and somewhat opportunistic. After a crash, they love 151 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: to go looking for um high quality buildings and high 152 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: quality plots for development that have fallen on hard times 153 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: and are much less expensive than they normally would would be. 154 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: And there seems to be a tendency of them throttling 155 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: back as the economy begins to overheat and interest rates rise. 156 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: I don't know if we really saw a lot of 157 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: that in that oh let's call it oh one to 158 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: oh eight cycle. Am I looking at it with a 159 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: that with a biased perspective? Or was that unusual versus 160 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: prior cycles where developers seem to be savvier, they seem 161 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: to be the smart money. Well, I think that it's 162 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: not all developers, or I think I think the world 163 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: divides itself, and there is a tendency when the sun shines, 164 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: when money is available for many developers to move forward. 165 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: There are other UH developers, and I can think of 166 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: a couple in New York, for example, the Durst family, 167 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: who were intergenerational and used to thinking over long periods 168 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: of time. And I remember that in post the collapse 169 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: of TOO as in eight they started looking around and 170 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: buying when nobody else was. So of course, you also 171 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: have to have very deep pockets because in these countercyclical 172 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: times banks are not necessarily willing participants. So often you 173 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: either have to have very very good banking relationships or 174 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: you have to be able to buy with your own 175 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: resources on all cash basis and then hope to finance 176 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: at a later time. So uh, I think the vast 177 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: part of the development crowd sort of follows the money UH. 178 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: And then there's a group that's UH exceptional who are 179 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: more countercyclical. Hmm. Interesting. Let's talk a little bit about 180 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: the innovation that is the cooperative. How did you come 181 00:12:55,200 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: to recognize this legal structure as superior to others and 182 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 1: and tell us a little bit about that development. So 183 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: you mentioned that I invented the co op, which isn't true. Okay, 184 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: co op existed long before popularized the co op. I 185 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: did what what co ops? Prior to when I got involved, 186 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: which was in the late seventies, were really familiar at 187 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: two ends of the spectrum. Either park Avenue very expensive 188 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: apartments were many of those were co op buildings, or interestingly, 189 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: there were some low income or limited profit UH co 190 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: ops that were created for UH people who could only 191 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: afford minimum really really affordable housing UH done in co 192 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: op form. Those were done some some unions created those 193 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: that housing. Some some were government UH and some were 194 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: other not for profit groups. But in between or of 195 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: middle class housing UH. It was not yet popular, and 196 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: I recognized that both UH buildings in the boroughs, for instance, 197 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: a large complex that I undertook in Brooklyn and elsewhere 198 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: UH would be suitable for home ownership. And I also 199 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: recognized that there were secondary buildings, some non elevated in 200 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: very good locations in Manhattan, for instance in Greenwich Village 201 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: that would be very desirable and people would be interested 202 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: in owning. So it was really seeing a broader market 203 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: for co ops as opposed to actually UH inventing the 204 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: first one. Your dad was a literary agent and worked 205 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: with quite a few very famous authors. How did you 206 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: find UH that business? What was that like? Well? It was. 207 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: It was very much in my family and in my blood. 208 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: So I grew up among publishers writers UM and some 209 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: pretty famous writers and some pretty famous writers Stephen King, 210 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: James Patterson, Dan Brown. These are household names, aren't they. Yeah, 211 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: some of the some of those came well after my 212 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: father died, more during my tenure. UM, but yeah, they were, 213 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: they were. They were very much part of my growing 214 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: up and and and my consciousness. How long did you 215 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: actually work as an as an agent? Well, I worked 216 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: actively for about a decade UM and uh, um, sort 217 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: of fifty fifty with my real estate activities, and then 218 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: I then I cut back the agency work. It's probably 219 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: I still own the agency today. It's probably five percent 220 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: or less of my time. So back then it seemed 221 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: that authors did not really get a great deal out 222 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: of out of the publishers. UM. Was the business really 223 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: all that lopsided back then? What was it like? Well, 224 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: I think UM publishing was evolving, Distribution of paperbacks was 225 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: getting wider, book club distribution was strengthening. So the revenues 226 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: that a very successful author could command were growing, and 227 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: you saw a leap frogging of the value of brand 228 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: name authors during that period. So so let me give 229 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: you an example of something from your book that I 230 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: found astonishing. Uh, your office represented Stephen King and his 231 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: prior deals when you first brought him on limited his 232 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: annual royalties to ten thousand dollars a year. So even 233 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: if he owned earned much more than that, it would 234 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: get spread out over time. That seems like a terrible deal. Well, 235 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: I have to correct a couple of things. We only 236 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: work with Stephen for a moment in time because uh, 237 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: certain issues that came up in his mind regarding conflicts 238 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: that he felt we had with other clients. But before 239 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: we represented and he was working directly with Double Day 240 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: and in the UH in the seventies, theoretically in a 241 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: way to help authors, because we didn't have income averaging. 242 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 1: So if you earned a lot of money one year, 243 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: you'd pay a very high rate of income tax, and 244 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: if you owed earn less the next year, Um, you 245 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: couldn't balance the two years. I think later on in 246 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: tax legislation you could do that, but anyway at that time, 247 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: so publishers and authors created this sort of maximum earning 248 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: concept that they put in contracts purportedly to help the authors. 249 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: But um, what happened in Stephen King's case is that 250 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: his earnings were so enormous that what seemed like a 251 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: reasonable annual amount initially became a hundred year payout for 252 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: for what what what what? The earnings were as a 253 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: result of the success of his books. And you did 254 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: a couple of other very big books. I remember Bronx 255 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: Zoo about the New York Yankees, and the G Spot 256 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: book just went berserk, that became a global bestseller. To 257 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: tell us about that, well, I represented a psychologist, popular 258 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 1: psychologist from California, man named George Bach, and he had 259 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: he often stayed with me in New York when he 260 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: was here, and he had just come back from a 261 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: sexology conference where the author of The G Spot, Beverly Whipple, 262 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: had made a presentation about her research and theories. And 263 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: he said to me, look, Francis, you should get a 264 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: hold of her and uh um, she should write a book. 265 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: So I said, uh, okay, I've never heard of the 266 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: G Spot. Uh. I decided that I felt it was 267 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: more appropriate to have a woman and a woman agent 268 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: in my office pursue it with her, which she did, 269 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: and we signed her up and the rest is history, 270 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: and that's sold just huge amounts in all around the world, 271 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: all around the world. I have to go back to 272 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies really where you cut your teeth in 273 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: real estate. What was it like trying to develop real 274 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: estate when interest rates were double digit and there seemed 275 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: to be a lot of impediments to getting anything done 276 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: In New York City. Well, in the early eighties, I 277 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: was undertaking my first renovation. It was a building in 278 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 1: Brooklyn Heights actually, and uh, I watched the prime rate 279 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: soar all the way. I remember it hit eighteen or 280 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: nineteen percent, but it was astronomic and actually it was 281 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: an invert he did yield curve. So the long rates 282 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: were lower. You could borrow five year money at about 283 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 1: fourteen point seven five mortgage money um. And what we 284 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: did in those days the bank had a way that 285 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: you could buy the rate down. You paid them a 286 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: certain amount up front, so the homeowner would get a 287 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: mortgage at twelve and three quarters percent, which in that 288 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: crazy environment seemed like a good rate. And so that 289 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: was how we went about selling some of our units. 290 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: The rest we ended up renting and selling a few 291 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: years later when the market stabilized. So the regulatory environment, 292 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: the sort of nimby thing that we still see today. 293 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: The not in my backyard issue was that a big 294 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: problem in the seventies or eight and eighties, or were 295 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 1: people sort of open minded about development is good, it's 296 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: an economic increase and it creates more housing. Well, I 297 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: think the people are are flexible, but there is an 298 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: mbie kind of mentality, particularly depending on the type of 299 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: housing that's being created. We undertook to build a major 300 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: project in in Brooklyn, in downtown Brooklyn, and when I 301 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: proudly told the borough president that we were including a 302 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: major component of affordable housing, he said, no way, not 303 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: in that neighborhood. I couldn't believe my ears that UM 304 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: that this UH, this politician, politician was was not favoring 305 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: affordable housing. UM eventually overcame that because I explained that 306 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: it was being co sponsored by the Actors Fund UH 307 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: and that some of the people, some of the people 308 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: there would be formally homeless people, but some of the 309 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: other people were going to be retired actors who or 310 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: UH needed needed housing, and that somehow made it more 311 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: politically acceptable. Quite quite interesting. So in New York we've 312 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: seen a huge number of these very tall buildings going up. 313 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: What do you think about the state of of real 314 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: estate commercial real estate development today. Well, I think in 315 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: in in terms of for sale for sale housing, the 316 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 1: market is bifurcreated. Um. If it's housing that is at 317 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: a low price point, which for New York City means 318 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 1: below three million, there's still a reasonably active market. The 319 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: super luxury market has cooled off dramatically, and I would 320 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: say that this is not a time that I would 321 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: want to be building super luxury housing. And I think 322 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: some of the projects that are sort of caught in 323 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: the middle right now that are being built are going 324 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 1: to have trouble selling their selling their units. So that 325 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: space very much boomed for a while during the post 326 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: credit crisis recovery. It seemed it was scraping along and 327 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: then it just exploded. Did we over build? Did the 328 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: prices just get too silly? What what seems to be 329 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: the issue there? And those tend to be cash purchases, 330 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: not mortgage properties. Well, I think, especially in the higher end, 331 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: is that fair. I don't think that that's necessarily true. 332 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: I think it's mixed, uh problem, maybe half cash and 333 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: half financing. Uh, you know. I think it was a 334 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 1: confluence of events which are often what occurs, and those 335 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: events or a combination of increased supply a misperception of 336 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: the depth of demand. So you know, people see a 337 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: few apartments or you know, a hundred apartments being sold 338 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: at a certain price point, and developers extrapolate that into 339 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: being a market for a thousand or two thousand. So 340 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: often under the market system, we really don't know when 341 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: we've oversupplied the market until we still thinks stopped selling. 342 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: And the other factor, which I think is coming into 343 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: play now, is that as a result of the tax 344 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: legislation that was recently passed UH, New York and some 345 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: other UH states that may be high service states but 346 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: have to have high taxes to support them are in 347 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: disfavor UH. And I'm sure that's in the minds of 348 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: of some wealthy people who are thinking of locating here. 349 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: We're talking about salt state and local tax deductions which 350 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: got capped UM at a pretty low level, which is 351 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: heard in New York, California. I would guess Chicago and Boston. UH. 352 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: I think those are all on the list, and there 353 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: are others UM. I also recall reading you you would 354 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: referenced LLCs more easily by condos versus co ops in 355 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: order to UM in many ways provide some degree of 356 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: privacy for whoever the owner is. UM. Are we still 357 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: seeing a lot of LLC purchases of of along those 358 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: ways for for those purposes? Or has there was a 359 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: giant New York Times article a couple of years ago 360 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: about this, or has that trend kind of eased off? Well? 361 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: I think ll c's exists for two reasons. In some 362 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: cases it may be anonymity, but in other cases it's 363 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 1: a simple legal protection against personal liability. UH. And many 364 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: lawyers would advise their clients, regardless of of whether they're 365 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: concerned about their identity or not, to purchase through what's 366 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: called a single purpose ll C UM so liability to 367 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: protect the household, or liability to protect the owner. In 368 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: cases to protect the owner, I mean normally you have insurance, etcetera. 369 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 1: But you know, God forbid some very very unexpected event occurs. UM, 370 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: if it's owned by an LLC, you would be protected, 371 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: Whereas if you owned it in your own name, you 372 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,439 Speaker 1: would be totally reliant on your insurance, which may be 373 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: fully adequate. But UM, a very cautious lawyer would would 374 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: recommend an LLC time Equities. Um, I know you focus 375 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: a lot in Brooklyn and Manhattan. Are you outside of 376 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: the New York area? Where else do you do you 377 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: look to, uh do some construction and renovation? Well, actually, 378 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: Time Equities is a very national and international company. We 379 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: own property in thirty states. We own property in six 380 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: countries US, Canada, Germany, Holland, Italy and one property in 381 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: the Caribbean. And let's talk a little bit about the 382 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: real estate cycle. Where are we here? Is this late 383 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: cycle early cycle? It seems like there hasn't been a 384 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: lot of supply coming to the market. That doesn't seem 385 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: like a lot of existing homes have come up. How 386 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: how are you looking at where we are in that 387 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: in in that season? Well, I think real estate is 388 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: always in two cycles. One is its own cycles supply 389 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: and demand in a particular sub market, and the other is, uh, 390 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 1: what's the financing market look like and what what is 391 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: the ability of purchasers or renters to consume additional real estate? 392 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: I think the economy generally bankers say we're in the 393 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: tenth now eleventh inning of a nine inning game. Uh, 394 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: and so we all sort of know that intuitively. Um, 395 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: and that's of course a concern um UH. Different sub 396 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: markets have different characteristics. We tend to be opportunistic and 397 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 1: we look for properties that are underperforming in a given market. UH, 398 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: and real estate tends to exist over long periods of time, 399 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: so we don't think in twelve twenty four month segments. 400 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: We think in five and ten years segments, so we 401 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: could be in and out of the cycle within that 402 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 1: period of time. So the credit cycle you referenced, I've 403 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: heard lots and lots of people complain that they had 404 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: to jump through all sorts of hoops to get a mortgage. 405 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: If we're in the eleventh inning, we still seem to 406 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: have fairly tight credit unless that's changed. How do you 407 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: see us UM in terms of availability of credit, not 408 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: necessarily price of credit, which is still pretty reasonable. I think. 409 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 1: I think the again, the credit markets are bifecreated, and 410 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: when people refer to the problems of getting mortgages, they're 411 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: usually talking about UH markets, the market for home home mortgages, 412 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: and they're the regulators. The government, reacting to the last crisis, 413 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: which seemed to enfranchise too many borrowers, became very very restrictive. 414 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: I remember, as perhaps you did it. I think it 415 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: was Bernanke who couldn't get a mortgage himself. UM uh 416 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: in any case. UM. In the commercial the financing of 417 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: income properties whatever their type, residential, office, industrial, the markets 418 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: are pretty liquid uh and uh um. Although the market 419 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: has has maintained a decent discipline, there is more flexibility 420 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: now in things like uh repayment terms, so we're seeing 421 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: a lot of interest only loans rather than self amortizing 422 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: or ten year admortizing loans. These are on the commercial development. 423 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: On the commercial income property side, we have been speaking 424 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: with Francis Greenberger. He is the founder of Time Equities, 425 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: real estate development company both nationally and around the world. 426 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: If you enjoy this conversation, we'll be sure and come 427 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: back and check out the podcast extras, where we keep 428 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: the tape rolling and continue discussing all things real estate. 429 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: We love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us 430 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. Check out 431 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: my daily column on Bloomberg dot com. Follow me on 432 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: Twitter at rit Halts. I'm Barry Hults. You're listening to 433 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast, Francis, 434 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for doing this. I am a 435 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: real estate junkie. I grew up in a household with 436 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: a mom who was a real estate agent. It was 437 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: always dinner table conversation, and I, as a person in finance, 438 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: always paid close attention to what was going on in 439 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: real estate if you were looking in the right place. 440 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: As much as so many people said the financial crisis 441 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: came out of nowhere, if you were looking at the 442 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: right part of the real estate market, there were tons 443 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: and tons of warning that uh, freight train was coming 444 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: down at the tracks that everybody. I just think most 445 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: people weren't looking in those spaces we're talking two Uh. 446 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: I think it took certainly took me by surprise. Uh. 447 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: And I think it wasn't a like most people who 448 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: work in an industry. You might know a lot about 449 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: your industry, but you don't necessarily know global finance as 450 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: well as you might. I mean, we all take it 451 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: into consideration, and the system was it was was really 452 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: a banking and finance problem as opposed to a real 453 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: estate problem. For for to say the least um. The 454 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: other thing that took me by surprise. We have a 455 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: president today who comes out of the real estate development sector. 456 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: I was surprised that the twenty two thousand and seventeen 457 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: tax code basically punished places like New York City and 458 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: New York State by capping the state and local um taxes. 459 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: That that was kind of shocking to me. I figured 460 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: if anyone wouldn't want to do that, it would be 461 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: President Trump. But he signed off on that. Well, I 462 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: can tell you a funny story. Barry Uh Ronald Reagan 463 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: made the same proposal, and a number of the major 464 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: New York real estate families, led by Larry Tish, called 465 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: an emergency meeting. They wanted to raise two million or 466 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: five million overnight in order to fight the legislation that 467 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: was being proposed. Same salt kind of UH provisions. And 468 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: I went to that meeting and um Trump was there, 469 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: and I think I was people kind of hemming and hawing, 470 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: and I said, come on a sidewalk, cross us. A 471 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars are our whole portfolios are at risk here? 472 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: And I immediately agreed to make a substantial contribution. And 473 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: Trump was number two, and then the others fell in line. 474 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: So we obviously had a very different point of view 475 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,719 Speaker 1: at that time. But if he has a good memory, 476 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: he certainly knows that This is a pivotal issue that 477 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: has existed over a long period of time. So yes, 478 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: I was very surprised to see him not appreciate the 479 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: importance of what was involved. It almost seems like it's 480 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: um a red state payback to the blue states for 481 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: not voting for him. I I don't know the thinking 482 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: behind it. It's certainly doesn't raise a whole lot of 483 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: money for the federal government. It's relatively modest in the 484 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: scheme of things. I guess the high tax, high service 485 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: states somehow offend the low tax, low service states. It's 486 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: my best guest for that. Well, I think I think, uh, 487 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I have no particular knowledge. I think Trump 488 00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: has left the real estate world and violy become UM 489 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: totally devoted to his political activities, and hum seems to 490 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: have transferred all of his allegiances to the right wing base, 491 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: which he credits with his election. I think he's probably 492 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: right about that. So, so you mentioned that time Equities 493 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: has not only gone to expanded to thirty states, but 494 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: is now international. When did that um begin? What was 495 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: that process? Like? I think the even though America may 496 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: think of Canada as as as an extension of the us. 497 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,280 Speaker 1: They don't. I can assure you of that. Uh. And 498 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: that was my first international investment, which I think was 499 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: in you mentioned Toronto. Is that where it was? I 500 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: know it was actually in uh in Montreal, Lovely city, 501 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: lovely city. I've been dealing with a bro girl who 502 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: was based in Montreal on the U S transaction which 503 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: we completed, and he said, hey, you should come up 504 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: here there there's some great pies, uh. And it's very inexpensive. UH. 505 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: And I went up there and I had arranged a 506 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: lunch with a bunch of developers, bankers, and and it 507 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: would seemed very pleasant until we got to dessert, and 508 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: then war broke out over the uh French English separatism 509 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: uh in Montreal. So then I realized what the problem was. UH. 510 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: And at that particular point in time that would have 511 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: may have been ninety six or ninety seven, pricing did 512 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: not really reflect, uh, the problems that were going on. 513 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: But by night they did, and that's when I made 514 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: my first purchase. So in other words, that um dual 515 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: language mandate helped to drive real estate prices lower. Well, 516 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: it was, it was, it was a confluence of events. 517 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: There was an extended recession, UM but certainly uh, the 518 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: fact that the anglophiles UH, led by the Seagram family 519 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: had made a decision to pull out of of Montreal 520 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: was not a positive. And in fact, the first property 521 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: I bought was from Seagram, from a Seagram's owned entity. Uh. 522 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 1: And what do you what do you think of Montreal today? 523 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: You know, I think it's a fantastic city. I often 524 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:35,240 Speaker 1: say it's France and North America. Um and Uh, it's booming, 525 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: It's got a great tech center uh um factor. Uh. 526 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: I think it's a wonderful place. And some folks have 527 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 1: said that um, Canada had come through the financial crisis 528 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: without any of their banks blowing up. They have far 529 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: fewer banks, a lot of concentration in the four or 530 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 1: five largest banks, but a whole lot more regulation and 531 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: a whole lot more oversight. The good news is their 532 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: banks are all in pretty good shape. The bad news 533 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: is a lot of people pointed Canadian real estate is 534 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: one of the bigger bubbles in the world. What are 535 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: your thoughts on that? Well, it's true that cap rates 536 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 1: in Canada have compressed a great deal and I haven't 537 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: been able to buy any new income property there for 538 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: five or more years. So I certainly agree that the 539 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: market is very expensive. Um Uh, does that mean it's 540 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: a bubble? Maybe? I think Um. The bubble that's referred 541 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: to is sometimes a construction boom in Toronto. Toronto has 542 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,359 Speaker 1: traditionally absorbed fifteen to twenty thousand new units a year, 543 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: which is extraordinary, and they've been doing it for almost 544 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: twenty years. Um. They have that much immigration to the city. 545 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: They have that much immigration, both international as well as domestic. 546 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: Um and people wonder how long can this continue without 547 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: some sort of a breather. Since I started going to 548 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 1: Vancouver for a conference about a decade ago, I just 549 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: think that's a fantastic city. It's beautiful, the weather is nice, 550 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: that people are nice, the architecture is great. It's right 551 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: on the Bay. Some people have described that as a 552 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: China induced bubble. A lot of folks out of China 553 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: can get money out of the country to buy real estate, 554 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: and they the locals complain about these see through towers. 555 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: Brand new buildings go up, they're fully sold, nobody's living 556 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,799 Speaker 1: in them. What what do you see is happening in Vancouver. Well, 557 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: the history of of the largest development project that I 558 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 1: know of Vancouver was of course owned by Lee Kai Shing, 559 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: who's perhaps the wealthiest person in in in Asia. I 560 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: think he's Hong Kong based UM. He also owns ten 561 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 1: percent of c ib C, one of Canada's largest banks, 562 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: So so his presence UH and he's legendary. He's the 563 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: war and buffet of of of Asia UM and certainly 564 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: has a lot of investors UH and apartment owners who 565 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 1: have followed him and who have bought the complexes that 566 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: he that he's built there, and it's I haven't been 567 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: there recently, but it's enormous UM. So there is a 568 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: very close tie to to to China, to Asia UH. 569 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: And of course it's it's convenient because you can fly 570 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: fly there easily, being a West coast city. And I 571 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:49,240 Speaker 1: can imagine that today with with the Chinese UM currency controls, 572 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: that that will affect the Vancouver market. In fact, I 573 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: think I've read a little bit that it already has. 574 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: But clearly the ability of the Chinese to buy outside 575 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: their markets is being severely reduced and compromised at the moment. 576 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: So you you mentioned you have UM investments in real 577 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 1: estate outside of North America. Where where are you putting 578 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: money to work in either Europe or South America or Asia. 579 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: What what catches your fancy these days? Well, my most 580 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 1: recent uh, there were really two places that I would 581 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: think about first as Holland. Holland was at the end 582 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: of a long recession about two or three years ago. 583 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: Banks weren't lending and a lot of the local real 584 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 1: estate companies were very compromised by the losses that they 585 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 1: took during during a sustained recession. So real estate was 586 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: very cheap in Holland and nobody had the ability to 587 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 1: execute on it and buy it. So we have bought 588 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: about twenty five or thirty office buildings there in the 589 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,439 Speaker 1: last two years. So that's been an area of great 590 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: activity to us, and we've set up a small asset 591 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:02,840 Speaker 1: management office. So we're very very Netherlands centric um. In addition, 592 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: we just began made an investment in Italy, which is 593 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: working its way out of an enormous pile of of 594 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: debt and issues in a similar contrarian play where where 595 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 1: in Italy, Well, we bought what we did was we 596 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: bought a portfolio of non performing loans that says that 597 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: it was controlled by a Tuscan bank, So most of 598 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: the loans are in and around Tuscany. There are worse 599 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: places in the world to spend time if you're looking 600 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: at Italy, are you looking at any of the other 601 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 1: southern European countries that seemed to fall on hard times 602 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 1: over the past a couple of years, Greece or Portugal 603 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 1: or Spain. Well, we spend time looking at Spain. But 604 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: we found that the tradition, the customs of the market 605 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: are are less transparent there than we were used to. Uh. 606 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: And so we we we were thinking closely about it 607 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: and allied ourselves some local groups. Nothing came of it. Uh. 608 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: It's funny you mentioned Greece. Uh. We were having a 609 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,399 Speaker 1: discussion about Greece just the other day. And we'll take 610 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 1: a look. Portugal is obviously a country that's very much 611 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: on the rise and has a lot of very positive 612 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: um indicators. Uh. And I'd like to investigate it more, 613 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,319 Speaker 1: although I suspect the real estate there has already reflected 614 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,840 Speaker 1: the upturn in there economy. I would imagine that making 615 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 1: an investment overseas, whether it's Canada or or Italy, is 616 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: much more challenging than being in your own local backyard. 617 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,720 Speaker 1: How different are the legal rules? How different is the 618 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,839 Speaker 1: the business culture. What do you encounter when you try 619 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:53,760 Speaker 1: and bring what you've done in the United States overseas well? 620 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:59,319 Speaker 1: Clearly gaining a very very careful understanding of the legal 621 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: structure as am important, uh, understanding the tax structure. Uh. 622 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: And that's sort of the first steps that we take 623 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 1: when we think about a country. We look, of course 624 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,320 Speaker 1: at sovereign risk, but we look at the legal and 625 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: tax structure. I remember going to Poland and hum a 626 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: lawyer there was lecturing me on how Poland had special 627 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:29,880 Speaker 1: laws that uh, non Polish citizens couldn't own speculative real estate, 628 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,080 Speaker 1: and then he spent two hours explaining how to get 629 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: around it, and I said, well, you don't. I don't 630 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: really like to get around things if if I'm not 631 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: welcome here, thank you. Uh. And I can then can 632 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: continue to concentrate on Germany, which certainly has lots of rules, 633 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,799 Speaker 1: but it's pretty transparent. It's transparent. Uh. So you have 634 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 1: to you have to understand each each market uh and 635 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:59,240 Speaker 1: uh um, study it and and understand what you're getting into. 636 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 1: Not too long ago, I was sort of shocked at 637 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:07,279 Speaker 1: how relatively inexpensive Berlin was compared to the rest of 638 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,360 Speaker 1: the rest of Europe. Where where are you investing in Germany? Well, 639 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,919 Speaker 1: I started investing in Berlin and about two thousand three, 640 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: two thousand four UM, and actually ran into a publishing 641 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 1: friend when I was at a publishing convention in Frankfort, 642 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,760 Speaker 1: and he said, you like real estate, go to Berlin. 643 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: They're giving it away and they were, so I bought 644 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: as much as I could find. UM that made sense 645 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: UH in sort of the two thousand four to two 646 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:41,320 Speaker 1: thousand ten twelve period. But now the market, just like Canada, 647 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,360 Speaker 1: has become a very very favorite investment market. Prices have 648 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,839 Speaker 1: escalated and we're not able to buy UH properties they 649 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: are at at at good spreads. We're happy to have 650 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 1: the ones that we do and they're very very much 651 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,880 Speaker 1: more valuable than they were when we bought them. And you, guys, 652 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,360 Speaker 1: time equity is not much of a flipper. If you 653 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: buy a property at a good price and it appreciates, 654 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: but it's throwing off income, you would my understanding as 655 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: you prefer to hold onto those. We were very cash 656 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: flow oriented, so we we UH we we sort of 657 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:20,240 Speaker 1: built our business based on having a very strong amount 658 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,840 Speaker 1: of cash flow because when you're in the flipping business, 659 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,239 Speaker 1: or totally in the for sale business. Uh, you're a 660 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 1: victim of markets. And what do you do when the 661 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,680 Speaker 1: markets go south? If if you're running an income business, 662 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: a rental business, you know that there's going to be 663 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 1: income there through thick and thin. It may vary to 664 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 1: one degree or another, but you're not going to suddenly 665 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,400 Speaker 1: have the tap go dry. You speaking of taps, you 666 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,920 Speaker 1: mentioned the Dutch. I think most of Holland is below 667 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:54,280 Speaker 1: sea level, and they have some pretty extensive um structural 668 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: engineering to keep water out even if we see sea 669 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,879 Speaker 1: level uh go up. There was a piece in the 670 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: New York Times not too long ago about the threats 671 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: to certain coastal cities in the United States UM, and 672 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:16,279 Speaker 1: that the insurance industry has been raising rates if you're 673 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: anywhere near either a hurricane zone or a rising waters 674 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:25,719 Speaker 1: um situation. How do you see the potential threat of 675 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:32,080 Speaker 1: rising ocean levels UM relative to real estate investment? Well, 676 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 1: it's certainly probably the greatest disruption that the business faces. Uh. 677 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,960 Speaker 1: We read every day, whether it's special sections in the 678 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,600 Speaker 1: New York Times or there was a report out this morning. Uh. 679 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:51,239 Speaker 1: And notwithstanding that, politically, the administration has decided that the 680 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,800 Speaker 1: problem doesn't exist or shouldn't be referred to. It's clearly 681 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,680 Speaker 1: a major problem, and it's coming and it's coming quickly 682 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 1: at time Equities. We've had a department a sustainability probably 683 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 1: for ten years, so it's certainly an issue that we 684 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:09,560 Speaker 1: pay attention to. Um. It's not a simple one. Uhum. 685 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:15,319 Speaker 1: And how you manage the risk in different situations requires 686 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:21,040 Speaker 1: uh complex point of view. Um. It's funny. I spent 687 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,759 Speaker 1: the summer talking to my wife about our house, our 688 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 1: beach house on Long Island, and uh do we sell 689 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,640 Speaker 1: it and move inland? What do we do? And of 690 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,920 Speaker 1: course it's problematic because we enjoy being there and our 691 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:37,359 Speaker 1: family members and friends do. But when do you pack 692 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: your bags and run? Uh? It's complicated. So if you 693 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,200 Speaker 1: were that that raises an interesting question. If you were 694 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,880 Speaker 1: shopping for a new beach house today, would you buy 695 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,080 Speaker 1: a place in let's say, the beach Front in Miami 696 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 1: or or even the Hampton's Is that something you would 697 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,680 Speaker 1: be reluctant to put a big investment into. I would 698 00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:04,080 Speaker 1: certainly be reluctant. Uh and uh uh. The problem is, 699 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,440 Speaker 1: of course, the place that I have is attached to 700 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,799 Speaker 1: a lot of memories I've had it for twenty years, 701 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,280 Speaker 1: the kids grew up there, and how do you separate 702 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:15,319 Speaker 1: from it? But the problem with every real estate transaction 703 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 1: is you just described it. It's more than bricks and mortar, right, 704 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,600 Speaker 1: So I know I only have you for so much time, 705 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,399 Speaker 1: And I have a bunch of more questions to get to, UM, 706 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,759 Speaker 1: including my favorite questions I ask all our guests, why 707 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,120 Speaker 1: don't we jump right into those and and see where 708 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:40,200 Speaker 1: they go? Tell us the most important thing that we 709 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:50,360 Speaker 1: don't know about you. Well, although I am transparent and candid, Uh, 710 00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,520 Speaker 1: I also know how to keep a secret and do so. 711 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:58,920 Speaker 1: Tell us one no thank you? UM. Talk to me 712 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,080 Speaker 1: about your early men mentors who helped guide your career, 713 00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,280 Speaker 1: be it in the literary agency space or in commercial 714 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: real estate. Well, I was blessed with several extraordinary mentors. Uh. 715 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 1: And these names won't mean anything to listeners, but UH. 716 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 1: In in in the publishing business, UH, someone who in 717 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,799 Speaker 1: the industry is regarded as a giant. It was a 718 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:28,040 Speaker 1: German publisher named Roe volt And uh and he was 719 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,719 Speaker 1: almost like a second parent to me. UM. In the 720 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:37,560 Speaker 1: real estate business, there were two people Charlie Benninson, who 721 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:42,799 Speaker 1: is well known in the industry, uh, and certainly had 722 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,520 Speaker 1: a major influence on me in all respects. Uh. And 723 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,719 Speaker 1: there was a another man named Milton Newmark who was 724 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,440 Speaker 1: a real estate lawyer who also was a great mentor 725 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,239 Speaker 1: to me. Mentors are very very important to me. I 726 00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,239 Speaker 1: feel like I've learned more from them than I have 727 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:05,960 Speaker 1: in uh in in academic studying makes uh makes some sense? Uh? 728 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:13,200 Speaker 1: What real estate developers, builders, investors influenced? How how you 729 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:19,200 Speaker 1: think about investing in the real estate space. Well, I 730 00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:24,800 Speaker 1: I spent my entire career I always make an effort 731 00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,759 Speaker 1: to listen to what other developers are doing, meet with them, 732 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,960 Speaker 1: read about them, uh, and learn from them. However, in 733 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,280 Speaker 1: the end, you have to make your own choices and decisions, 734 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,920 Speaker 1: and I feel I do it's informed by understanding the 735 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:45,520 Speaker 1: experience of others, but it's not determined by them. Fair 736 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,960 Speaker 1: fair enough, Uh, Let's talk about some books. What what 737 00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,319 Speaker 1: do you enjoy reading? What are your favorite books, be 738 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,480 Speaker 1: they real estate, non real estate, fiction, non fiction. Well, 739 00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:00,719 Speaker 1: I'm an avid reader. Uh. Sometimes I'm reading out real estate, 740 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:06,479 Speaker 1: sometimes I'm reading about history, biography. Uh. I think non 741 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:11,839 Speaker 1: real estate. Recent book that is now shockingly in my 742 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,480 Speaker 1: mind on the best seller list. I think it's number 743 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:18,880 Speaker 1: one is Sapiens, which is a history of mankind. It 744 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,640 Speaker 1: just shows you that there are an extraordinary number of 745 00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:27,640 Speaker 1: sophisticated readers, a remarkable uh literary work and a remarkable 746 00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:33,839 Speaker 1: history of mankind. Um, but I in real estate. It's 747 00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,560 Speaker 1: been a few months. I read Sam's L's new book 748 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,480 Speaker 1: um uh and uh and thought that there were a 749 00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:44,200 Speaker 1: number of interesting insights in it. I also read a 750 00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,759 Speaker 1: book came out a few maybe maybe a year ago 751 00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,239 Speaker 1: about all the development that Zeckendorff did in New York 752 00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:53,400 Speaker 1: that I thought was extraordinarily good and an interesting history 753 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,239 Speaker 1: of New York real estate. The Sam Cell book is 754 00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:58,800 Speaker 1: am I being too subtle? Is that the one exactly? 755 00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:05,480 Speaker 1: And what is Zeckendorff developing my life? Develop my life exactly? Exactly? 756 00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:10,480 Speaker 1: Terrific book. And it talks not only about Zakendorff himself, 757 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,640 Speaker 1: but about the whole era in which he was such 758 00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,759 Speaker 1: a dominant figure. So you bring so much of a 759 00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:22,400 Speaker 1: publishing background to to your personal reading, are you? Are 760 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,239 Speaker 1: you ever halfway through a book and you say I 761 00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,680 Speaker 1: wish I would have found this book or the opposite, 762 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,600 Speaker 1: Who the hell published this crap? This is this is terrible. 763 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,000 Speaker 1: How does your background effects what you read? I mean, 764 00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,120 Speaker 1: I I do look, I do look at at who 765 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:41,680 Speaker 1: publishes books, and to some degree it can inform the 766 00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:47,520 Speaker 1: quality of it. But um, it's certainly not the soul criteria, 767 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,200 Speaker 1: but sort of interesting to me. Just like if I 768 00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:52,719 Speaker 1: look at a building, I'm interested to know who developed it, 769 00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,920 Speaker 1: I should also, of course, I left it out. I 770 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:01,839 Speaker 1: also read continuously the books that might or agency produces. 771 00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:05,359 Speaker 1: Of course I read Dan Brown's book The Second Its 772 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,680 Speaker 1: rives and uh, and many of many of our other clients. 773 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:13,279 Speaker 1: Who else, Um, let's let's let me give you an 774 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,800 Speaker 1: opportunity for some um sh endless promotion of your current 775 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:24,680 Speaker 1: client roster. Who is uh? Do you find especially readable, compelling, fascinating? Well, 776 00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:29,719 Speaker 1: i'd be concerned about would you defend any I would 777 00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 1: I would be I would be uh uh um. Here, 778 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,239 Speaker 1: I'll tell you a cute story. I got a new 779 00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,239 Speaker 1: children's book the other day, and there is a there's 780 00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:45,240 Speaker 1: an agent to our office who is a In addition 781 00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,200 Speaker 1: to being an agent, she also writes books herself. And 782 00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:50,880 Speaker 1: I didn't realize that it was so prolific, that she 783 00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:54,040 Speaker 1: was so prolific. But if I understand what I got 784 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,480 Speaker 1: uh the other day. It's her fiftie book. So she's 785 00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:03,440 Speaker 1: both a very very successful literary agent but also writes 786 00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,440 Speaker 1: at midnight, I guess, and has produced an incredible um 787 00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:12,640 Speaker 1: uh library of our own work. That's a lot, although 788 00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:14,840 Speaker 1: kids books don't have a whole lot of texts, so 789 00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:19,000 Speaker 1: maybe it's uh granted they were shorter books. So let's 790 00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,359 Speaker 1: talk about real estate. What are you excited about these 791 00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:29,080 Speaker 1: days in in the commercial real estate area? Well, uh, 792 00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:34,120 Speaker 1: I'm I I'm excited about tilting our portfolio to a 793 00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:38,759 Speaker 1: europe centric one. Um so um. Both our presence in 794 00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:43,600 Speaker 1: Holland and now in Italy and exploring new places is 795 00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:48,160 Speaker 1: something that that interests me a great deal. The other thing, uh, 796 00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:52,359 Speaker 1: In in my career, I spent half half of it 797 00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:58,200 Speaker 1: or more renovating half the world, but I hadn't done 798 00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,240 Speaker 1: a lot of new development or new construct auction. Starting 799 00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:04,600 Speaker 1: around twenty years ago or twenty or twenty five years ago, 800 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:09,320 Speaker 1: I got involved in new construction, uh, And I find 801 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:14,080 Speaker 1: that very challenging and very interesting. So I'm I'm happy 802 00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:18,160 Speaker 1: to be engaged in doing that, and it's it's it's 803 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,840 Speaker 1: exciting to me, is it a different experience starting with 804 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:25,000 Speaker 1: a clean sheet presentation by an architect, as opposed to 805 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,000 Speaker 1: here's the existing structure, here's what we have to work around. 806 00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,680 Speaker 1: They sound like two very different are completely different. In 807 00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:35,080 Speaker 1: one case, you're correcting the mistakes that somebody made. In 808 00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,759 Speaker 1: the other case, you're making your own mistakes. So what 809 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,560 Speaker 1: do you think is changing the most in commercial real estate? 810 00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,399 Speaker 1: What what is going to be very different twenty years 811 00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:50,239 Speaker 1: from now than than what developers are experiencing today. Well, 812 00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:52,680 Speaker 1: I think as as as we were talking, when we 813 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:56,480 Speaker 1: came in, the nature of the workplace as as well 814 00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:00,160 Speaker 1: as the nature of of where people live are are 815 00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:04,799 Speaker 1: have got moved beyond programmatic needs, move beyond you know, 816 00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:06,920 Speaker 1: space that you need for your work or for your 817 00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,680 Speaker 1: for your living. And we're very much involved in what 818 00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:17,360 Speaker 1: we call experiential moments. How how is the space experienced? What? 819 00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:21,279 Speaker 1: What is? What is? What is the user experience? Uh? 820 00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:24,360 Speaker 1: What do they want to encounter? And we're seeing dramatic 821 00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:29,919 Speaker 1: changes uh in that that people want amnetized spaces where 822 00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,319 Speaker 1: they can work in a different ways. As you were 823 00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:36,640 Speaker 1: commenting as we were walking in about Bloomberg's right, you 824 00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,440 Speaker 1: come into this building all the elevators take you to 825 00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,920 Speaker 1: the sixth floor, which becomes the general lobby, And the 826 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,200 Speaker 1: thinking behind that is you just end up with these 827 00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:49,799 Speaker 1: serendipitous interactions with people that you may not otherwise see 828 00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,000 Speaker 1: if everybody just takes an elevator up to their own floor. 829 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,800 Speaker 1: And the whole idea of having um of food space 830 00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:02,440 Speaker 1: and just it's a different design philosophy UM. And I 831 00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,640 Speaker 1: like your use of the word experiential. It really is 832 00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:09,200 Speaker 1: what it is. It's not just physical space. Someone has 833 00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:13,520 Speaker 1: thought about flow and how people interact in the real world. 834 00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:17,640 Speaker 1: And these days when we're retrofitting suburban office buildings, which 835 00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,680 Speaker 1: we do a lot, or urban ones for that matter, 836 00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:28,440 Speaker 1: we're now introducing major um amenity lounge spaces, coworking spaces, 837 00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:33,240 Speaker 1: wellness spaces, uh and and food and beverage spaces. So 838 00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:39,920 Speaker 1: they're almost become a little hotel like beyond UM the 839 00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:44,520 Speaker 1: typical office situation. That's pretty interesting. So this is always 840 00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:47,600 Speaker 1: an interesting question, and and I kind of have a 841 00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:49,640 Speaker 1: sense of where you're gonna go with this from your book. 842 00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,680 Speaker 1: Tell us about a time you failed and what you 843 00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:58,000 Speaker 1: learned from the experience. Well, I fail all the time. 844 00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,080 Speaker 1: I always say that I I don't bout about a thousand, 845 00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:07,120 Speaker 1: A bout six fifty. That's pretty good, um so I 846 00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:12,800 Speaker 1: think I think recently Hum, I don't know whether whether 847 00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:17,400 Speaker 1: it's Bezos or somebody said, if you haven't failed continuously, 848 00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:25,920 Speaker 1: you're not making progress. Um so Uhum, I have many, 849 00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:30,160 Speaker 1: many mistakes or many issues that we deal with. Uh. 850 00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:33,560 Speaker 1: And I think when when a business plan goes wrong, 851 00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:39,800 Speaker 1: the important thing is to switch strategies quickly and either 852 00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,640 Speaker 1: find a way to minimize your losses or if it's 853 00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,480 Speaker 1: a market correction that you're subject to, perhaps putting it, 854 00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:54,880 Speaker 1: extending the business plan time frame until markets recover, which, 855 00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:57,360 Speaker 1: for instance, if it's a for sale project, going into 856 00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:00,280 Speaker 1: a rental mode would be a way to do that. 857 00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:03,480 Speaker 1: What do you do for fun outside of the world's 858 00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:09,920 Speaker 1: a real estate I'm a big traveler, uh. I like 859 00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:13,920 Speaker 1: new places. Um. Going to Copenhagen next week for the 860 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:19,200 Speaker 1: first first time. UM, be careful of the bicycles. It's 861 00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:22,600 Speaker 1: a fascinating city. I spent a lot of time in Amsterdams, 862 00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:27,320 Speaker 1: more bicycle dangerous than Amsterdam. UM. I have not been 863 00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,400 Speaker 1: to Amstam, but I've been to Copenhagen, and even as 864 00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:34,360 Speaker 1: many bikes are now in New York. It's just astonishing. 865 00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:36,520 Speaker 1: You You really have to know the rules of the 866 00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,920 Speaker 1: road and basically know that there may not be any rules, 867 00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:43,760 Speaker 1: to just watch out my rules, get out of their way. Uh. 868 00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:47,160 Speaker 1: I love my family like everybody does. I love my friends. 869 00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:49,800 Speaker 1: I spent a lot of social time, and I'm also 870 00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:55,160 Speaker 1: a tennis player and skier. Interesting if you had a 871 00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:58,120 Speaker 1: millennial or a recent college grad come to you and 872 00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:02,400 Speaker 1: say they were interested in a career in commercial real estate, 873 01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,760 Speaker 1: what sort of advice would you give them? I would 874 01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:09,800 Speaker 1: I would tell them to learn as much as they can, 875 01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:12,680 Speaker 1: of course, h I would tell them to learn how 876 01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:16,720 Speaker 1: to differentiate themselves and to see things, to try to 877 01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:19,840 Speaker 1: see things that others don't. Because that's really as we 878 01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:23,840 Speaker 1: discussed earlier, where the margins are you think like everybody else, 879 01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:29,120 Speaker 1: margins are thin. And our final question, what is it 880 01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:32,040 Speaker 1: that you know about the world of real estate today 881 01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:34,600 Speaker 1: that you wish you knew thirty or forty years ago 882 01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:39,440 Speaker 1: when you were really ramping up? Well, I've always had 883 01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:46,000 Speaker 1: a sort of creative uh side visual sensitivity, But as 884 01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:50,200 Speaker 1: I've gotten more and more into development, I realized that 885 01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:54,520 Speaker 1: I really do have a very keen architectural sense and 886 01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:59,160 Speaker 1: development as a teamwork. It's team between an architect and 887 01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:03,080 Speaker 1: a developer. And if you bring that skill that way 888 01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:06,560 Speaker 1: to see into things and and and to appreciate good 889 01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:11,640 Speaker 1: architecture and also redirect architecture when it when it goes 890 01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:15,360 Speaker 1: awry or it's not serving your program, that's a very 891 01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:20,360 Speaker 1: beneficial relationship. And I've enjoyed my my working with the 892 01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:24,320 Speaker 1: number of fantastic architects, including some of the starchitects of 893 01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:28,520 Speaker 1: the world, so that that element of creativity is something 894 01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,160 Speaker 1: that I discovered a little later in my career and 895 01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:34,360 Speaker 1: would have perhaps like to have done it sooner. We 896 01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:38,720 Speaker 1: have been speaking with Francis Greenberger. He is the founder 897 01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:44,120 Speaker 1: of Time Equities UH International real estate development firm. If 898 01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:46,960 Speaker 1: you enjoy this conversation, be sure and look up an 899 01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:51,720 Speaker 1: inch or down an inch on Apple, iTunes, Bloomberg dot Com, Stitcher, 900 01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:55,120 Speaker 1: Overcast wherever finer podcasts are sold, and you can see 901 01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:58,520 Speaker 1: any of the previous two hundred and twenty five or 902 01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:02,400 Speaker 1: so such conversations we've ad We love your comments, feedback 903 01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:07,080 Speaker 1: and suggestions right to us at m IB podcast at 904 01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:10,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot net. I would be remiss if I did 905 01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,880 Speaker 1: not thank the crack staff that helps put together these 906 01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:18,360 Speaker 1: conversations each week. U Medina Parwana is my producer. Taylor 907 01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:23,360 Speaker 1: Riggs is our booker. Attica val Bron is our project manager. 908 01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:28,000 Speaker 1: Michael Batnick is our head of research. I'm Barry Retults. 909 01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:31,920 Speaker 1: You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio