WEBVTT - What Dustin Hoffman Learned from Bob Fosse, Gene Hackman, and Kobe Bryant 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:10.080 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:15.080 My chance to talk with artists, policymakers, and performers, to 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:19.440 hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions change 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:26.400 their careers, what relationships influence their work. This week, we're 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.640 doing something different. A couple of months back, I had 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:33.000 the great honor of talking with Dustin Hoffman as part 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:36.720 of the Turner Classic Movie Film Festival in Hollywood. At 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.440 the festival, we screen some of the greatest films of 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:43.480 all time, and much of Dustin Hoffman's work fits that description. 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.080 We selected Lenny, the nineteen seventy four film in which 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:52.400 Hoffman portrays the groundbreaking but troubled comedian and social critic 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.440 Lenny Bruce, who had died eight years prior of a 0:00:55.520 --> 0:01:01.040 drug overdose while battling ongoing obscenity charges. We decided to 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:03.520 show this movie about Lenny Bruce at eleven thirty in 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:07.720 the morning. We're gonna show TUTSI at midnight. We thought 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:09.479 we mixed it up a bit here at the TCM. 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:13.640 Customer and Lenny, shot in black and white by director 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:18.240 Bob Fossey, was nominated for six Oscars, including Best Picture, 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:22.160 Best Director for Fossey, Best Actress for Valerie Paine, and 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:26.000 Best Actor for Dustin Hoffman. We're all the same schmuck, 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:31.680 and it does cracks me up that we try so 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.479 desperately to be unique when we're all the same cat 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:39.240 eyes and Howard Kennedy Johnson me you every cat has 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:45.160 got that one chick really busted up his hand. I'm 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.280 kind of speechless whenever I see this film. I've seen 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:50.200 it a lot, which that doesn't come in handy when 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:52.160 you have to interview somebody after the film to be 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.280 manduid speechless. But I don't want to labor this too much, 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.720 but you know, this is a movie actor who is 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.840 un any other of the last seventy five years. You know, 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.160 there's a lot of great film stars, and there's a 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:07.400 lot of great actors working, especially through the sixties and 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:10.240 the seventies and the eighties and on beyond that, and 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.240 but few of them took the chances to become a 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:20.519 different person so many times in films and transform themselves physically, emotionally, psychologically, 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:25.160 um their voice, you know, to inhabit a character. I 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.800 don't think there's another actor alive in the film business 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:33.480 in the last several years, who transformed themselves again and again, 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:35.639 and then would play something very close to themselves, their 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:39.560 own speech, their own behavior, perhaps their voice, and all 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:44.639 the President's men and in Cramer versus Kramer. Uh but 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:49.639 you know, please, um, but I just want to say 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:53.360 that this is a person I've admired on the deepest 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:55.640 level for a long long time, and it's my great 0:02:55.680 --> 0:03:17.560 pleasure to ask you to join me and welcoming Dustin Hoffmann. Yeah. Great, 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:39.000 you're two kinds. M Thank you when you make films 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:42.520 like this, I mean you've worked You've made so many 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:46.240 great films and worked with so many great directors. Was 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:47.920 Fosse some of them? Was out a goal for you 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:53.680 too to work with Fosse? No, how was it to 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:58.520 work with Fossey? Tough? Tough, tough? Uh. Bob was a 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:04.080 originally a choreographer. Her and choreographers don't have dancers coming 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:09.640 up to them saying, what's my motivation? They dances do 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:13.360 what they're told. You know. He tried to be in 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:16.480 a sense to collaborate, but it was tough for him 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:18.680 and it was tough for me. We had a tough time. 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:21.640 Did you like to do a lot of takes. Yes, 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:25.160 both of us did the script. I thought it was problematic, 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:28.520 so I wasn't that anxious to do it. We went 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:32.680 into rehearsal with the principal actors, with the wonderful Valerie 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:45.200 Paene extraordinary performance and was Valerie, myself and you know, 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:47.880 Jane Minor and I think Stanley Beck were in New 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:51.640 York in the room and it's going rough the rehearsal, 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:55.479 and after five days we started Monday. After five days, 0:04:55.960 --> 0:05:01.320 we're rehearsing routines, rehearsing scenes, and on Friday, Bob Fosse says, 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:03.760 we don't have a movie. We don't have a script. 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:09.640 See on Monday the reverse two weeks or three weeks, 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:12.599 and we thought it was gonna be shelved when Hallomen 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:16.880 came back Monday and he says, I solved it, and 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:19.760 he interspersed it. He says, I'm going to intersperse it 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:24.680 with interviews because the scenes there's no connective tissue to them, 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:28.280 they don't connect. So Stanley Beck, who was wonderful and 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:34.120 at my manager, Valerie Pete, thank you. Uh uh. Stanley 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:36.560 and I were close friends since we were beginning actors. 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:41.440 Uh and Valerie Preen and Jan Minor are going. I 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.160 think that's all it is, isn't Those three are going 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:47.599 to be interviewed throughout the movie and He'll and I'll 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:49.800 have an easier time of shooting it. By the way, 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:56.000 that's Bob Fossey asking the questions. Now, when when you 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:57.760 make a film like this and there, or any of 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.159 the films you've made, I should say, do you have 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.880 any kind of the unique relationship for a specific relationship 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:08.400 with the cinematographer Surtease. This film was nominated for six 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.240 Academy Awards and in every one of the major categories 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.679 you would imagine Best Picture, Best Director, Best Actor, Best Actress, 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:18.960 Best Screenplay, and cinematography for Surtees, who made his reputation 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:21.960 shooting a lot of Clint Eastwoods films for many, many years. 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.680 Bob Surtees was one of the great cinematographers Robert Surtees. 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:29.880 He was the cinematographer the graduate Bruce is a son 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:33.680 and son. Yes, we were going with the father and 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:37.680 son ten And when you shoot a film, do you 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.080 have a specific relationship with cinematographers when you make a film? 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:45.680 Or no, No, I don't uh, I don't want to know. Uh. 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:49.719 Where the cameras. In terms of UH, I do ask 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.400 about lenses sometimes if I want my hands to do something, 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:55.880 and I say, where are you cutting? Where's your bottom frame? 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.600 Because if if it's here, also i'd have to have 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:00.520 my hands up here to have it in the shot. 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.120 Other than that, I don't really want to know. It's 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:06.240 interesting that you say that, Alec, because one of the 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:10.040 things I objected to with with Bob is that he 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:13.560 posed me. And when you see it, it's gorgeous. So 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.800 he was right. I was wrong, but you know i'd 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:20.560 be up there, and I worked so hard on these routines. Uh. 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.480 I had never seen Lennie Bruce. Bob had never seen 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:27.440 Lennie Bruce. Mike Nichols, who I talked to before I 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:29.760 did it, because he had done the graduate. He and 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:35.240 Elaine May were acting upstairs on Sunset Boulevard was it 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.960 called a duplex or something a nightclub, and Lenny Bruce 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.880 was downstairs, and in between their acts they would come 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:46.840 downstairs and watch Bruce because no comedian, they said, would 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:50.200 do a whole show improvising. You know, sometimes you do 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:53.000 two minutes, three minutes, and the rest is your is 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:56.320 your stuff. But Lenny would come out and not know 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:59.880 what he was going to say. I think the only 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:05.040 who comedians I know since Lenny that that do that 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:16.960 one was Robbed Mumbles Robin Williams, and the other one 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:20.520 was a wonderful Billy Connolly, and neither of them many 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:23.360 times would just they would just go uh and that 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:30.760 that takes a lot. But what was the question? Um 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:37.360 the sorry? We're talking about cinematographers and oh and I 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:39.719 worked hard. I got the thirty three rpm s that 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:41.960 Lenny had made us what we called him that we 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:45.920 didn't call them finals, and I'd lay down on the 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.960 floor and I would play. I had three months. I 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.080 had about three months, and I did every you know. 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:57.600 I wrote down longhand every single line he said in 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:00.360 all the records, and he even the ones he did over, 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:02.840 he would always deviate and I would write them down. 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.040 And then I would go to Bob Fossie and I'd say, geez, 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:08.080 I like what he did here, because he used these 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:13.040 sentences or he used that, and I was promised. And 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:16.240 I think that's what I got so upset about, that 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:17.880 I would be able to shoot it. We were going 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:19.600 to shoot it. And I think that's what Bob wanted. 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:22.000 We were going to shoot it in different clubs in 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:26.000 Florida and with live audiences, and that's what I wanted. 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:28.439 I want to be able to really feel like I'm 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.160 doing it with the real audience. And he'll have whatever, 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.199 three or four cameras at once. He agreed, and that's 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:36.400 what we were supposed to do. And then it's probably 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:40.160 money wouldn't allow it. So it was quite laborious sometimes 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.640 to do these routines over and over again, and he 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:46.719 would tilt the camera, he would go, He'd be like, 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:49.360 where you are and I'd be on the stage. He said, okay, 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:51.080 now look a little bit this way, and I'll look up, 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:54.400 now look down, Okay, now do the routine from here 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:56.640 to here. And you know, it kind of broke my 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.680 heart because I was trying to be the guy. You know, Foster. 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:06.000 It was a great, great artist. And uh, it's funny 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:11.080 because I just saw a film recently with that Alfred Hitchcock, 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:16.160 directed with Carrie Grant, and uh. Carry Grant said he 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:19.120 had never worked with Hitchcock again after the first picture 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:22.560 because they didn't get along, because Hitchcock didn't like to collaborate. 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:25.080 But then they made up and they made more movies, 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:29.600 and that Lenny Bruce was not someone you had been 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:33.480 a fan of or had a big awareness of before them. 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:35.840 You no, No, I just I was in New York. 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.800 I just never saw him. We couldn't have uh, you know, 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:44.080 I mean before I was successful. We couldn't afford to 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:50.959 go to nightclubs, you know. They it was expensive. And uh, 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:55.080 I love the jazz is what's so extorting? It was 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:59.480 next to you. Jazz never dates. Jazz is the same 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:03.800 now as it was that. It's like god ut to score? 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.960 Oh and uh and I had time. No, I didn't. 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:09.719 I had never seen him. I had never seen I 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:13.240 don't think any comedian. I didn't go to nightclubs much. 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.160 And I went out to l A because they said. 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:18.880 Someone said to me, if you want to know Lenny Bruce, Uh, 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:22.800 you gotta go see Sally mar his mother, who was alive. 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:27.520 And I went. She was very friendly. Uh. She introduced 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:29.760 me to one of his best friends who used to 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.520 shoot up with and he in turn introduced me to 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.320 friends at Lenny And I had a tape recorder, you know, 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:38.880 like a wallet, not a walan is like a pearl 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:42.520 tape recorder, and I taped everything, and she says, you 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.160 want to go to Vegas because they're all They're all 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:48.640 his friend, Buddy Hackett other people. And I said, oh 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.680 my god, yes, And I was taking all these notes. 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:54.400 It was the best time of research I've ever had. 0:11:54.880 --> 0:12:00.600 They all said the same thing. Uh, except Buddy Hackett. Um. 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:03.160 They said, you know, you know Broadway Danny Rose thing, 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.560 will you allen? Did you know? And they used to 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:10.720 get together, the comedians, Lenny and these guys when they 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:12.920 were you know certainly what it was. I don't know 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:17.120 Cantor's or And they said they'd sit around do what 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:20.200 they did and brow it down, you know, tell jokes. 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:23.480 And I staidly look around, and he was always very quiet. 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:28.120 And suddenly he's gone, because he wasn't shy guy. And 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:29.840 he's gone, and they look around. I don't know where 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.520 he is. And then they find him in the kitchen 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.600 talking to the people that work in the kitchen to help. 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:39.400 He loved to just talk to the people and and 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:43.079 ask questions and find out stuff. I think he originally 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.080 this is the stuff I had heard. They kind of 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:50.440 say it in the movie. The musicians were more important 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:53.240 to him than the audience, because when you do show 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:56.160 after show after show. He if you noticed the musicians, 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.839 they're always sitting like that, you know, because they ing 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:06.439 with them all chance of a Von Monroe and uh 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.160 and Lenny uh Len. He felt that if he could 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.240 crack up the musicians, then he was getting somewhere. I 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.320 think he wanted to be in Hollywood. We wanted to 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.280 be an actor. Also, I had heard you shot this 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.800 movie where we shot a lot of it in Florida. 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:24.440 The nightclubs, the stage work. Yeah, one nightclub. Basically, I 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.720 think the scene when we were sitting next to each other, 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:32.840 the scene up there where I'm in my raincoat and 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:37.040 use Yes. When I came back after my three months, 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.600 I had all this stuff to give Bob. You gotta 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:42.200 put this in. You gotta put that in. You gotta 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.360 put that. And the one thing that he kept was 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:48.520 that scene. And the reason he did is when I 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.920 was memorizing, it wasn't then. You know, this is before 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:54.920 the kind of media. You know, you had cell phones 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.880 and all the texting. Some guy heard I was doing 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:02.920 the movie and he had been a student somewhere in Chicago, 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:07.120 and he sent me found out my business address in 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.400 New York, and he sent me a cassette and I 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:17.200 played it word for word. It's that scene. And I 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:21.000 got piste off at Bob because when he shot the 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:24.920 Master from upstairs, right in the back, and when I 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:26.800 saw it, I said, he didn't cut in. You didn't 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:30.920 cut in? He says, no, So that's eight minutes, you know, 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.080 being up there, just in one shot, and again he 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:40.920 was he was right. Uh, it's nice of you to 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:44.280 admit that. Actually, it's very generous. I've met a lot 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:50.040 of stuff forty years later. But but do you think 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.320 do you think in your I mean, obviously you're someone 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:54.880 who when you I mean, I don't believe anything I read. 0:14:55.440 --> 0:15:02.520 But I mean, but but involved I try to minimize 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:04.400 that in my life of the time. But but the 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:08.960 but but for you, obviously you know, very fastidious and 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:11.560 very very lots of questions and lots of seeking and 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:13.760 so forth in the work you were doing. And what 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.320 do you think that comes from in terms of all 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:21.880 the films you've made from Graduate on into Cowboy and 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:28.120 everything like that, where you just seem so, what's the 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:37.080 word I mean, you're so Jewish? Is that in I'll 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:41.240 convert If that's it's that simple. I'm gonna convert tomorrow. 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.600 That's what's gonna get me into your strateusy. But the but, but, 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:46.240 but the thing is you you just seem like you 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.480 always have something to prove a lot of people got 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.520 where you got and they did what you did, and 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:55.320 you scored with these performances and the originality. But then 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:57.320 you keep going and you still feel like you have 0:15:57.400 --> 0:15:59.040 Did you feel that way? You still have something to 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:03.560 prove again and again and again? What drove you? I 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:08.040 guess the same thing that still drives me. Kobe Bryant 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:13.040 was interviewed recently. It was before he had a step 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:16.400 out for the season, because he heard himself. I saw 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.080 the interview and I wrote it down. I told my son, 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:24.640 Jake was basketball, same question. You know, all these years 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.440 of great basketball playing and he still spend so much 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:34.680 time practicing and playing whatever. Why? And he said, I 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:39.760 guess for the challenge of every day. It's beautiful, sons. 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:49.600 And I have only one slight personal connection to Lenny 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:51.280 Bruce and that and that was that Marvin Worth was 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:55.760 a dear friend. He died producer. He produced the stem 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:57.920 he produced to Malcolm X with Spikey, produced a lot 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.160 of good and he was Bruce's manager, and Marvin Worthy 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.600 was from Brooklyn and his wife Jo never from Brooklyn. 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:05.160 And he had the one of the heaviest New York 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.439 accents I've never heard in my life. His voice was 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:09.399 down here. He had a very heavy accent like this. 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.240 And he said to me, I'm gonna revive Letty on Broadway, 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.040 and I want you to do play Letty. I go, 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.480 what and he said, uh, he goes. I got a 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.159 thousand hours of tapes of Lenny. I got thought, Julian Barry, 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:24.440 We've got so much material and Lenny's he said, there's 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:25.880 so much stuff we could put in there. I don't 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:27.400 worry about that. It's all gonna work like a charm. 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.359 And I go and he goes, and your Dusty, he 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:32.480 called you Dusty. Dusty's not the only one who could 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.080 play that pot. By the way, He's got the only 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.359 person who could play that part. I'm like, uh huh, Sarah. 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:39.800 And he goes, and he goes, he goes, and I go, 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:41.439 but what about the other thing? He goes, one other thing? 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:44.000 What about the other thing? He was one other thing, 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.480 one other thing. One of the things. I go, I'm 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:53.800 not Jewish, he said, You're from Long Island, right, I said, yeah, 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:55.120 you go your hand, you're half way there. The rest 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.600 of the will take care of himself. O that and 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:05.360 he would have been wonderful. But when you did this film, 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:09.639 how involved in your films were you before? Then later 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:13.360 in the casting? Oh, I have to tell you. I'm 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:19.240 glad you're asking me. Another example of the Fosse's genius, uh, 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:27.800 is that I met Honey Bruce. Uh and uh uh? 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:33.680 Which came first? I met? He cast Valerie Parrain before 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:38.679 he met Honey Bruce, and then he met her, and 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:41.959 then I met her we you know, not together. And 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:45.880 I couldn't believe Honey Bruce that Valerie was the reincarnation 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:49.320 of Honey Bruce. Literally, I mean it could have been 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:52.159 like mother and daughter. I was and I said, Bob, 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:57.080 you had to have met the Honey Bruce before you 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:01.439 cast Valeri says no, it was just this intuition. I 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:04.280 had nothing to do with any of the casting except 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.439 except Stanley. He was nice enough to have Stanley in 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:14.680 it for my manager and all my films. Uh. Yeah, 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:18.399 I mean the graduate. They've been trying for two years 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.919 to cast it, and Katherine Ross and myself were the 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:27.040 last two two screen test after two years, and I 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:29.760 heard that they were sitting in the screen room not 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:33.280 particularly excited about our screen test, and I said, well, 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.000 either we go with them or we don't do it. 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:41.200 And it was that kind of a that they said 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:43.720 that in interviews. I think Larry Terman said that the 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:50.840 producer and uh Midnight Cowboy, uh he uh he cast Uh, 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.800 he didn't cast John Floyd. He cast some someone else 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:59.520 and they wouldn't let him out of his contract. And 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:05.399 after that happened, I said, please see my friend John Voyd. 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:07.359 We weren't close friends when we've been off for all 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:10.280 way together. And he says no. John Sessinger said he 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:12.680 read for it and he doesn't have that Texas accent. 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.159 He was from Yonkers. I said, yeah, but he's an actor. 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.720 He can get it, you know. And John immediately went 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:22.239 down to Texas forgot where with the tape recorder and 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:26.680 spent whatever time and came back and and read for 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:30.040 it and he got the part. But he was second choice. 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:34.679 Kate Jackson was the first choice for Cramer versus Kramer. 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:37.520 She was in Charlie's Angels and they were saying, oh, 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.280 the film will pay back itself before we started shooting, 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:43.640 because they were so popular. And then the studio wouldn't 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:47.719 let her out. So I kept telling them about this 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:52.960 Meryl Streep. I had heard about it, ah, and they 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:55.400 saw and they saw her. So there's been a few 0:20:55.400 --> 0:21:01.480 I've suggested, I've I've never demanded or you know, I don't. 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.959 I don't think that works actually, unless you're directing or producing. Well, 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:06.840 some people, there's some people they have these approvals of 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.040 casting and they and they utilize that in whatever way. 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:12.320 And those are the people who they just don't get involved. 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:13.760 They just like they just let it that all take 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:16.320 care of itself, and the it doesn't really change what 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:19.800 they do. You know, Devlent Hackman and I knew each 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:25.440 other on the early days. They're much older and and uh, 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:29.320 we never worked together. And suddenly I'm doing this thing. 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:31.639 A few years ago. We're shooting in New Orleans a 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.840 runaway jury and I have a I think a supporting 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:38.560 part and Gene Hackman has a leading part. And the 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:42.800 director finds out that we knew each other. We went 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:45.480 to the past, seen the playhouse together to kicked out 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:49.399 after three months, they're not having any talent and h 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:52.320 oh my god, you guys know each other for all 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:55.800 those time, dirty years. Yeah, we gotta do a scene. 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:57.879 So they wrote a scene. It's it's one of the 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:00.560 last scenes in the movie. Takes place in a public bathroom. 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:04.439 It's like an eight page dialogue scene. And afterwards, it 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:06.359 was the last thing I shot the movie. It's over, 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:09.479 and Gane and I say, let's go out and get drunk. 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:13.040 And we go to an Italian restaurant in New Orleans 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:17.240 and we're getting drunk and Hackman says, were you scared? 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:19.840 I said, I was so scared. Man, I thought I'm 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:21.879 gonna I'm going to forget my lines. He said he 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.400 felt exactly the same way. You know, because you are 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:27.040 what you are at the beginning, you don't really change. 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:30.679 We were unemployee actors for ten years, and he said 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:33.280 to me, and one of the great things ever said. 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:35.680 We were just close to each other. He says, do 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:38.000 you feel the same way I do after you finish 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:41.280 a movie? And he probably made a hundred twenty movies. 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:46.400 I said, what do you feel like You'll never work again? 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:55.359 Of course, every single time that that's it. After five 0:22:55.440 --> 0:22:59.959 decades of consistently winning roles, every actor dreams of Hoffman's 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:04.760 years of joblessness remain charming. His latest film, The Program 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:09.280 About Lance Armstrong, will be released later this year. Listen 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:12.920 to other episodes of Here's the Thing in our archives, 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:16.239 like my conversation with Dick Cavitt, whose career as an 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:21.359 iconic talk show host includes a TV interview with hot 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:25.240 young newcomer Dustin Hoffman, fresh off his film The Graduate, 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:28.879 the tape of which may or may not exist. There 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:32.320 are several several versions of what really happened. I just 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:37.720 remember being told one day, Dick, they're going to either 0:23:38.520 --> 0:23:42.440 reuse the tapes or race them or jump them. When 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:45.440 you see what tapes that once to the ABC show 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:48.600 and you can have them if you want to for 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:54.119 sixty dollars. And I thought, well that's a ludicrous amount 0:23:54.119 --> 0:23:58.240 of money. Yeah. Take a listen at Here's the Thing 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:08.840 dot Org. This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to 0:24:08.920 --> 0:24:13.200 Here's the Thing Today, recorded live at the Egyptian Theater 0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:16.800 in Hollywood as part of the Turner Classic Movie Film Festival. 0:24:17.640 --> 0:24:20.600 Dustin Hoffman has been nominated for the Oscar for Best 0:24:20.640 --> 0:24:25.679 Actor seven times. He's won the award twice. Actors Strive 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:28.840 for depth and range in their work. Hoffman makes this 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:33.640 appear effortless. There's obviously roles you played, like Cramer versus 0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:38.879 Cramer and all the President's men, and you seem it's, 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:40.400 I don't know what word to use. It seems close 0:24:40.400 --> 0:24:42.639 from who you are, your voice and your appearance and 0:24:42.680 --> 0:24:46.600 your psychologic stuffing. You're paying playing a contemporary character. You're 0:24:46.600 --> 0:24:48.639 not playing somebody with some disability or what have you. 0:24:48.680 --> 0:24:52.400 It's not rain Man or someone who's damaged and broken 0:24:52.480 --> 0:24:55.520 like Cowboy and so forth like that. But you've done both. 0:24:55.600 --> 0:24:58.119 There's a there's a theatricality of the roles and a 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:00.359 vividness to them, and you're not afraid to do that. 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:05.000 Where does that come from? From being in the theater? Yeah? 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:08.840 I mean I where are you from? From? Long as? 0:25:11.000 --> 0:25:19.439 I'm from fucking long Asland, fuckings long with two? So 0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:24.000 how first of all, I wish we lived in the 0:25:24.040 --> 0:25:29.359 same city. How old were you when you started studying act? 0:25:30.480 --> 0:25:33.120 And when they sent you out? They sent you out 0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:37.120 for certain kinds of parts, young leading men, the young 0:25:37.200 --> 0:25:42.280