1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: This special episode of Thinking Sideways is not brought you 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: by your wife who's trying to kill you. Instead, it's 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: brought you by T and T s new limited series 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: The Alienist. When a series of gruesome murders grips New 5 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: York in eight, Dr Laslow Chrysler and his team must investigate, analyze, 6 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: and capture the killer. Inspired by The Alienist, this week, 7 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: we're going to delve into the death of Thomas Edwin Bartlett, 8 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: who was discovered dead at four o'clock in the morning 9 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: on January one, eight six of apparent chloroform poisoning. The 10 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: general consensus was that his wife Adelaide Blanche Bartlett was 11 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: the one who administered the poison, but to be honest, 12 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: we don't know for sure who did it, so that 13 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: is our mystery. And just a quick little ears warning, 14 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: there is going to be some talk about sex in 15 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: this episode, so if you don't want the little ones, 16 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: here are little ears here and that save it for later. 17 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: Do you want to introduce ourselves? We probably should because 18 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: that would be great since I just gave away the story. 19 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: Who were the players? Well, I am Steve, I'm Joe, 20 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: and this is Thick Sideways. The podcast. Good job. It's 21 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: like we do that all the time, like that enthusiastic damn. 22 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: So let'sen I've read into the story, give a little 23 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 1: background on the players that we've got. So there's really 24 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: there's three main players in this story. First off, there 25 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: is Edwin and Edwin the husband. He was a successful grocer. 26 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: I'm looking actually on several stores, right, like a chain 27 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: or something. Right, Well, he was a grosser. I guess. 28 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: I guess I meant that isn't the business owner, not 29 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: the guy who was behind the counter. He has a 30 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: successful bag checker, checker, either of the two. But their 31 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 1: business was in London. He was twenty nine years old 32 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: when he married Adelaide in eighteen seventy five. At the 33 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: time of their marriage, she was just nineteen years old 34 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: and she had had a bit of a tragic past. 35 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: Both of her parents had died by the time she 36 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: was eleven. She was taken in by a family and 37 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: they raised and educated her. And yeah, it was and 38 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: that plays into part of the marriage terms or the 39 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: dowry terms, because it was an arranged marriage. Not surprisingly, 40 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: they weren't in love, which wasn't really a thing at 41 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: the time. Marrying for love well for some people thought 42 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: all of them. But one of those stipulations of her 43 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: dowry was that Edwin had to pay to complete her 44 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: education and he almost immediately sent her away to school 45 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: for about two years. So happy romantic newlyweds go to 46 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: school an el see you later. She actually came home 47 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: on holidays for business. Yeah, it wasn't if she was 48 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: gone completely, but they were. When they were together again, 49 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 1: they were reported to, you know, have a happy relationship, 50 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: though they didn't have much of a sexual relationship. Platonic. Yeah, 51 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: platonics is the way you see it described a lot. 52 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: Uh there there though there is some disagreement on that. Yeah, 53 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: there is, there is, and that's something that we're going 54 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: to talk about in a bit. But one of the 55 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 1: signs that points to the fact that it was not 56 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: entirely platonic is the fact that Adelaide got pregnant and 57 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: had a child in one which would have been six 58 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: years after their marriage. Unfortunately, the child was still born, 59 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: and she vowed never to get pregnant again. Apparently it 60 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: wasn't an easy pregnancy for her. Yeah, the child was 61 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: still born. I mean that's a pretty good sign. But 62 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, there's nothing to say that their 63 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: relationship was had an inherent sexual component. There's there is 64 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: evidence obviously she pregnant. I would say that's more evidence 65 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: that Edwin was like, you know what, I need an 66 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: air to give all this money to or something like that, 67 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: you know, more than for practical reasons rather than reasons 68 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: of pleasure. Yeah, but also maybe pleasure who I don't know. 69 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: I mean that some people said they only had sex 70 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: once in their entire relationship, which she got pregnant. But 71 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: then then I think it was their chambermates said her. 72 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: She thought that she believed that actually they only had 73 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: unprotected sex once once she got pregnant. Correct, Yeah, correct. 74 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: I think their relationship was not quite as abnormal as 75 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: some people like to know. No, And and that's that's 76 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: one of the things that, as with all these older stories, 77 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: you gotta be careful of the accountings and the reporting. 78 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: But let's continue on. So the couple lived in several 79 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:47,679 Speaker 1: different houses in London, but in October of eighty five 80 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: they moved to the Pimlico area, which is in central London. 81 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: They had been living in another part of the city. Uh, 82 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: and what motivated him to move I don't really know, 83 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: and that's not really important to the story, but you know, 84 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: it's close to their Their play was close to the Thames, 85 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: actually a stone so away, so maybe they liked it 86 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: for the dead bodies. I don't know that was it, 87 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: but I did. What is important to note here is 88 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: that before the move, actually since January, they had been 89 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: going to the Wesleyan Chapel in Merton Abbey, which was 90 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: about eight miles or thirteen kilometers away from their new home, 91 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: the one that they just moved into. And that's important 92 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: because when they started attending that church, they met the 93 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: Reverend George Dyson, and he and the couple became quick friends, 94 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: and they would spend a lot of time together. And 95 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: some accounts would say that he would minister them individually, 96 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: while others would say that he was hired to tutor 97 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: adelaide um. And by tutored, I mean, well, I don't 98 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: actually know what it means, because there's a lot of 99 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: conflicting accounts. I mean, it sounds like she was interested 100 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: in in education and you know, be being educated and 101 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: learning stuff. I mean grant, I mean, you know, if 102 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: that was part of her dowry, was that she was 103 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: to continue her education. The only reason she could get 104 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: married was if she were guaranteed that continue education. If 105 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: she was into that, I mean would be yeah. I mean, 106 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: we don't know. We don't know what was going on 107 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: here in terms of what was taught or what actions 108 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: were taken. Well, according to the testimony of the Reverend himself, 109 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: he said that he said too, I believe to Adelaide 110 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: at some point that he felt that Edwin was actually 111 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: sort of trying to push them together, meaning George Dyson 112 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: and Adelaide. He felt that he was trying kind of 113 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: trying to push them and and yeah, and you see that, 114 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: you see that in a lot of places, because I mean, 115 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: as we talked about the resources of the sources on 116 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: this say that Edmond himself apparently wasn't all that interested 117 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: in sex, but he did he had this belief in 118 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: the power of animal magnetism, which is a force sometimes 119 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: referred to as mesmerism. It's kind of a life force 120 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: that can be held by It's held by all animals 121 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: and can be transferred to others with healing properties. This 122 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: is when that kind of stuff was going on, it 123 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: was popular, and again, we don't know if that's true. 124 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: Because there's only a couple of players who say that 125 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: it's it was not as if it was a widely 126 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: known belief that he did this. So it's hard to say. 127 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: But what we do know about the pair is, you know, 128 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: in terms of who liked. What we do know that 129 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: apparently she had more of an appetite for intercourse than 130 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: he did because supposedly, according to Edwin's father, she took 131 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: up almost immediately with Edwin's brother after their marriage and 132 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: an affair with him, although Edwin's father really didn't like 133 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: and so he was throwing mud. All. Yeah, there was 134 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: some straw disagreement over that particular issue. But there's there's 135 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: also uh information that says that she was having intercourse 136 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: with the George Dyson. And the reason that that it 137 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: said that way is that Adelaide and Dyson were, according 138 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: to the maid, found multiple times on the floor in 139 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: positions quote unquote unusual for pupil and teacher. That that 140 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: was a great way to say that he was actually 141 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: also supposed to tutor her in judo. They were just 142 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: paper clip Yeah, um, but you know, it's I mean, 143 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: it's not entirely clear if Edwin was how much of 144 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: this he was aware of or on board with um. 145 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: And as we said, you know, his father didn't like her, 146 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,439 Speaker 1: and so he said a lot of bad things and 147 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: she made some strange statements about her husband. So his 148 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: his letters to the reverend seemed to indicate that he 149 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: was okay with it. No on board, but it's I'm 150 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: not positive. Towards the end of his life, the past, 151 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: at least the last couple of years of his life, 152 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: his health was really bad. Yeah, it was waning. Yet 153 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: he expected to be to die and to leave his 154 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: wife a widow. And you know, he apparently thought that 155 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: Dyson would have been at the ideal husband for the future, 156 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: and that's what he seems to think. Yeah, what's was 157 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: noble of him. Yeah, so we're almost at this point, 158 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: we're almost up to talking about Edwin's death. But there's 159 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: just a little more that we need to share about him. 160 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: Joe had you were just talking about his health and yeah, 161 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: it had been poor for years ahead of time. Um 162 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: he had been diagnosed by his regular medical doctor as 163 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: having subacute gastritis, which is an irritation of the lightning 164 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: of your stomach UM and subacute means that it came 165 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: on rather rapidly. He also supposedly had issues with his 166 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: gums and his teeth with left in a lot of 167 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: pain and discomfort, at least for the latter part of 168 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: the year of eighty five, and part of the reason 169 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 1: for that is his choice of dentist, because he picks 170 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: a complete and utter nut job dentist. You know. Yeah, 171 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: they didn't have the Internet. You couldn't look like reviews 172 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: on your dentist friend. I wish that he could have, 173 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: because this guy believed that the best way to prepare 174 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: Edwin's mouth for receiving dentures was too I kid, you 175 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: not saw his teeth off the gums. It's like leaving 176 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: the healthy aside it. I was so much rather have 177 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: a tooth pulled than have it sawed off. Yeah yeah, yeah, 178 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: broke out, Yeah, decided the health of considerations aside. I mean, 179 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: I would you would think that that having rotting stumps 180 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: in your job would not be a healthy thing? Oh god, no, 181 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: exposed nerves. No, this whole thing sounds bad and it's 182 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:56,959 Speaker 1: and think about it. It was a handsaw, not a 183 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: power saw. Okay. The other problem that Edwin had was 184 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: apparently it was determined that he was suffering from mercury poisoning. 185 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: And when his regular you know, medical doctor asked him, 186 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: you know what's going on. He was taking some pills 187 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: and he said, well, why are you taking him? And 188 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: he admitted that he didn't know they had been prescribed 189 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: to him, and so he was taking them well, and 190 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: so he was getting mercury poisoning, which is not good. Well, 191 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 1: also back in the old I mean, murcury was used 192 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 1: in amalagam in dentistry for fillings for a long long time. 193 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 1: But also I mean he actually might have it might 194 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: have been other things. Apparently Edwin strongly believed that he 195 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: had worms. He was totally conness he had worms and 196 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: worms or excuse me, and mercury actually in those days 197 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: was considered a good treatment for parasites. So he might 198 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: have actually been taking mercury including yeah, by the way, 199 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: I'm not recommending this if you think you have worms. 200 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: But and apparently he didn't. He didn't have much of 201 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: a real doctor exactly. His wife kind of was his nurse, 202 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: and he didn't exactly have even his regular doctor once 203 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: in a great while. So that was about it. So 204 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not surprised, being people took mercury for 205 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: uh syphilius, and you know, like I said, parasites and 206 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: a bunch of other stuff. It was kind of the fix. Well, 207 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: the trick is is it will fix everything and then 208 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: you will not be suffering from those things anymore because 209 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: you will be dead, right, I mean, yeah, I don't know. 210 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: I guess there's something to be said for having that 211 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: unquestioning kind of demeanor of well, maybe this is just 212 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: you know, I've never been to another dentist. Maybe this 213 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: is how things are done. But you would think, for 214 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: the first one I was gonna say, you would think 215 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: the first time somebody started sawing your teeth, you would 216 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: be like, just kidding, this can't be right. Just the 217 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: whole idea of like, it seems kind of awkward to 218 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: get a saw into somebody's mouth. Also, I'm sure it 219 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: was a little dental saw. Well yeah, I'm sure it was. 220 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: Still it just sounds like an uncomfortable knife, yea. And 221 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: not much in the way of So all of this 222 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: is going on, and Edwin is getting sicker and sicker, 223 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, in the month of December, 224 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: his health seems to rally. Uh and the couplers scene 225 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: around town and they're happy. And he goes to his 226 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: regular doctors apparently, who says, oh, yeah, I know you're 227 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: doing much better. Good prognosis. And then on New Year's Eve, 228 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: Edwin went to see his quack dentist again for for 229 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: what reasons I don't know, uh, and then came home 230 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: and he and his wife they spent the evening together 231 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: in their house. She then woke up at about four 232 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. They feed fall asleep in a cot, 233 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: and she was sitting near the cot and it fall 234 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: asleep next to it room fireplace face and so we 235 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: could keep warm. And then when she woke up, she 236 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: noticed something wasn't right, and so she said that she 237 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: tried to pour brandy down his throat in an attempt 238 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: to rouse him, and then when that didn't work, she 239 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: called for help and and people came and they figured 240 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 1: out very quickly which he had passed, which was strange 241 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: thing to do because apparently, I mean the southern landlord 242 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 1: who lived upstairs. She wasn't got him first. This is 243 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: a bit four am and uh, and said the maid 244 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: maybe she said the maid up, but whatever it was, 245 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: he came right down and he said, well, he touched 246 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: the body of the body was just cold as hell. 247 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: It was cold. And so I was like, Okay, I've 248 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: got this body here that's laying there, stone cold and 249 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: the eyes are wide up in a staring at nothing, 250 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna poor Brandy not a stroke. Now. Yeah, 251 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: that doesn't make a lot of it's her defense. I mean, yes, 252 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: bodies get really cold, panic she was young, but also 253 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: um no, she actually she was. She was in her 254 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: thirties at this point. She scratched that from the record anyway. Um, 255 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: one thing I will say is that I have very 256 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: poor circulation as a as a role. My blood pressure 257 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: is really really low, and there are times where my 258 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: hands in feet are like ice cubes. So we shouldn't 259 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: just bury you. We should probably check or something. Yeah. Um, 260 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: and you know, my core stays warm, but my limbs 261 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: get really really cold. And I'm convinced that if I 262 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: did pass in the night and my fiance was like 263 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: just went to touch, you know, my hand and just 264 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: felt it cold, he would just think, Wow, she's like 265 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: passed out or sleep or something, and he's right, yeah, 266 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: he would just be like, wow, she's still asleep. Must 267 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: have been really tired. It's so weird. No, I mean yeah, no, 268 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: I mean obviously he's smart enough he would check for 269 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: a pulse blah blah blah. But I'm just saying, if 270 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: you're kind of in a panic and all, and he 271 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: was in bad health already, and you know, I suspect 272 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: his circulation wasn't particularly great if all she did was 273 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: kind of touch his hand and then she thought, oh, 274 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: I'll give him some brandy that usually warms him up 275 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: and wakes him up, and then that didn't and then 276 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: she was like, oh, that's why he's so cold. Okay, Dan, 277 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: So obviously he's found dead. That that I think it 278 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: was about ten or eleven o'clock that morning. Edwin's father 279 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: comes over because he was in town at the time, 280 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: and as soon as he heard about it, he came 281 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: over and he, like we talked about, he was suspicious 282 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: of Adelaide and he didn't like her. And so the 283 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: first thing he said he did was go and smell 284 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: his son's mouth, you know, for signs of poisoning, and 285 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: he reportedly smelled something that was sweet, and you know, 286 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: made a big ruck as saying, I want an official 287 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: examination done of the body and the doctors when they 288 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: did the examination, there was no obvious cause of death 289 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: until they opened Edwin's stomach, at which point they found 290 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: a sixteenth of an ounce of chloroform in it. Now, 291 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: presumably there had been more chloroform in his stomach before that, 292 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: but because it evaporates so easily, it was probably escaping 293 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: out of his mouth to a degree. Yeah, I mean 294 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: it will. And to be clear, chloroform is not something 295 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: that naturally occurs in your stomach. No, absolutely not no, 296 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: absolutely not like mercury will kill you. Correct. And the 297 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: cause of death at this point was pretty obvious, but 298 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,479 Speaker 1: how the chloroform got into him was not. Because the 299 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: thing is chloroform will burn skin after it is left 300 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: in contacted with it for a second or two. Oh, 301 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: Edwin's mouth and throat didn't show any signs of burning. 302 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: His tongue was kind of bleached white, which is an 303 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: after effect and is a known effect, But there was 304 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: no burning. So our mystery is how did it get 305 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: there and and who did it. To finish the story, 306 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: before we get into all the theory section, Adelaide and 307 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: George Dyson. They're charged with Edwin's death. Dyson is almost 308 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: immediately actually is at the trial, is immediately released from 309 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: the charges in exchange for testifying against Adelaide. What he 310 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: tells the court is that he had gotten her or 311 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,959 Speaker 1: ounces of chloroform that she said she was going to 312 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: use on Edwin to help him sleep because he had 313 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: been in so much pain. Because if you know anything 314 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: about chloroform, people used to put it on a rag 315 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: and you put it over your mouth and you inhale 316 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: that stuff and it'll knock you out. It's one of 317 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: your all the time, it really does. She did the 318 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: story about why that happened. We'll get into some of 319 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: that a little later on. But the long and the 320 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: short of it is is that they went to trial. 321 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: She was put on trial, he testifies against her. The 322 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: jury cannot make it stick. That or the prosecution can't 323 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 1: make it stick, and therefore the jury cannot come back 324 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: with a charge of guilty. Uh So they say, and 325 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 1: this is the great the foreman says of the jury says, um, actually, Joe, 326 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: here you read this all right. Here we go quote. 327 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: Although we think grave suspicion is attached to the prisoner, 328 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: we did not think there's sufficient evidence to show how 329 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: or by whom the chloroform was administered. Quote, dune, dune 330 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: done exactly, so we don't know how it got there. 331 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: There was a lot of puzzlement over that. Actually, I 332 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: don't know if you read that quote by Sir James 333 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: pet Oh, yeah, that's a great quote. It is a 334 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 1: great quote. Yeah, I said, after the trial was over, 335 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: she'd been she had been found not guilty, and so 336 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: she could be retried. And so he supposedly said, quote, 337 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: she should tell us, in the interests of science, how 338 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: she did it. She can't be tried for it again. 339 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: Obviously he was not convinced of her innocence. Obviously not. Well, 340 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: it's uh, it's almost theory time. But before we go 341 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: to theories, let's take a quick break. We hope you're 342 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: enjoying the Mystery of the Death of Thomas, Edward and Bartlett. 343 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: Here's a sneak peek into the Alienist, premiering January. A monster, 344 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: unleashed God, a man obsessed, he's watching, a city in fear. 345 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: Monday's on T and T, the Hunt for Pure Evil 346 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: begins combined Killer swacklem on us, based on the best 347 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: selling novel Daniel brul Lukevitt and the coda, Fetti compels 348 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: him to do e be a new limited series Mondays 349 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: at ninety central on T and T. And we're back. Yeah, 350 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: and let's get into those theories. Yea. So the first 351 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: theory is suicide. The theory is that and some people 352 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: say that the only way that that the chloroform could 353 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: have got down his through his mouth and his throat 354 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: into a stomach fast enough and not cause any visible 355 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: burns was if someone were to have willingly and quickly 356 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: drank it. Yeah, next to put some brandy or something 357 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: and just check it right down. Yeah. Yeah. And and 358 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: the problem is is that, you know, back, I mean, 359 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: this is eighteen six at this point, so other than 360 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: a visual inspection of his throat, you know, today they 361 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: could take a microscope and they could probably do some 362 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: analysis to figure that stuff out, like how long did 363 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: it take to actually swallow it all? But today we don't. 364 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: At that time, they didn't have that ability, So we 365 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: can't do like a fine, a fine examination of it. 366 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: I mean, as we talked about before, he is supposedly, 367 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: uh you know, he had been in ill health, and 368 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: he had been told that he only had one year 369 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: to live. And there's the fact that he had, so 370 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: he hasn't his he hadn't his will for a long time, 371 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: that everything went to his wife with stipulation, which was 372 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 1: common in that time, that she didn't remarry. Strangely, he 373 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: changed his will about three months prior to that, at 374 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: the encouragement of George Dyson. So people say, well, that's 375 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: that's an odd bought about that. Um, And we talked 376 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: about this before, is that it may have been that 377 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: he wanted them, as Joe had pointed out before, to 378 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: hook up and become a couple, and if he were 379 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: just to remove himself from the picture, that would be 380 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: the most expedient way to make that happen. Yeah, it 381 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 1: does make sense, It does appear, and it's been said 382 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: by any various people that he thought Dyson would be 383 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: the ideal husband after his death. And the other thing 384 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,959 Speaker 1: to keep in mind is people say, well, I mean, 385 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: drinking chloroform apparently tastes really hideous. And there's that whole 386 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: thing about remember the brandy. There's that glass of brandy 387 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: in there. There's a bottle of brandy in the room 388 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: and a glass with brandy in it. So people say, well, 389 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: maybe he poured it into the brandy to cut the flavor, 390 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: and that helped prevented from causing burns. I mean, the problem, 391 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: the hard part about chloroform is that, and this applies 392 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 1: to all of our theories, is there isn't a whole 393 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: lot of data about how quickly it will take it 394 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: will kill someone. So I don't know if he was 395 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: intending to take his own life, would he have known 396 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: if he had enough, and how long it would take 397 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: doesn't take much. My understanding that that's clarifying apparently, and 398 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: it's very fairly small doses can stop your heart, We'll see. 399 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: That's the thing. I saw stuff where a guy had 400 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: had about about like a quarter of an ounce and 401 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 1: had had died, And there was a guy who had 402 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: had four ounces of the stuff and had lived. So 403 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: it's all over the mountain. Now. The other problem with that, 404 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: of course, is that it's the error that it happens. 405 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 1: You know, in a modern age, if somebody drinks that, 406 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: they're able to pump your stomach and and give you 407 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: all kinds of medication helped revive you fifty seven years 408 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: ago that wasn't available. If he drank four ounces and 409 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: then immediately threw it all up, you might live too. Right, 410 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know so, but that's the problem with 411 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 1: the accounts of you know, when I see these numbers 412 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: and don't know how much it's gonna take. Um, but 413 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: that's all I have on that. I mean, I'm not 414 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: really I don't know. I don't know about that theory. Um, 415 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: but it's entirely possible. I mean, it sounds like he 416 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: was probably miserable. It's healthless. It was pretty bad. He 417 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 1: had no teeth, he was gumming everything. Yeah, well in 418 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: the worst stubbing everything. Hum. Well, let's move on to Actually, 419 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: this story really does make me want to go see 420 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: my dentist frequently and often. We do have dental insurance 421 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: through the podcast. Right. Well, actually, the same kind of 422 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: guy that Edwin had, probably that's what we can afford. 423 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: That's what I got, just the cheapest plan possible. So 424 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: let's move to the next theory, which is that his wife, 425 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 1: Adelaide was the one who did it. That's a popular theory. Well, 426 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: I'm dealing with a lot of people, including as we 427 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: said before, Edwin's father. Um. Now, the reason why to 428 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: do that, in a way seems easy because she'd been 429 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: married to him for fourteen years and she was tired 430 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: of him, and she had this new boyfriend that she 431 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: would rather be with. And supposedly, as we've kind of 432 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: talked about before, there's the fact that apparently they didn't 433 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: have a sexual relationship where she did with Dyson. Other 434 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: countess said that he actually did want to have sex 435 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: with her, but she didn't want to because for one reason, 436 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: because of all the stuff that was going on in 437 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: his mouth, apparently his breath was really foul. Yeah, and 438 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: that's that's one of the reasons that we'll talk about 439 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 1: this now. Is the chloroform. Where did the chloroform come from? Well, 440 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: Adelaide had Dyson procure it for her, And what happened 441 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 1: at the time is the requirements were that you had 442 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: if you were going to get any more than I 443 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: believe one ounce at a time, because it's a toxic substance, 444 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: you had to sign the book saying you got two 445 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: or five ounces or whatever the heck amout it was. 446 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: So he went through to four different locations over the 447 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: course of two days and it procured it in one 448 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,439 Speaker 1: ounce quantities and then poured it all into one bottle 449 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 1: and gave her that big bottle. She and then, according 450 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: to some people, what she said was that she wasn't 451 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: going to use it to help her husband sleep, but instead, 452 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: when he came at her in a quote unquote lustful way, 453 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: she was gonna put it on a handkerchief and wave 454 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: it in his face until he passed out, there by 455 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: sparing herself from having to endure his breath, which I've 456 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: known some people had some pretty bad breath, So I 457 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: kind of understand that. I kind of you too, but 458 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: like maybe just turn your head or something. I don't know. 459 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: But the but the problem with that all is that 460 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 1: this whole they never almost never had intercourse thing is 461 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: that she appears to have occasionally slept with him, because 462 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: condoms were found in Edwin's belongings, which would indicate that 463 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: he was having sex with someone used condoms, new condoms, 464 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 1: so presumably he had been using condoms, and therefore it 465 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: had been together. And the whole thing about like, remember 466 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: we talked about when she got pregnant. She had made 467 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 1: a statement to somebody at one point that the one 468 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: time they didn't use protection, she got pregnant, So that 469 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: indicates that they might have actually had a sexual relationship. 470 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: Sounds like, yeah, I think that would be a little 471 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: more well, I mean, you know, or or he was hopeful, 472 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: you know, he was thinking or I mean even in 473 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 1: terms of like he had been having these really bad 474 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 1: health problems and so probably while that was going on, 475 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,479 Speaker 1: they weren't really being physical with each other. Then yeah, 476 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: he thought, oh yeah, this is gonna be my chance. 477 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: And maybe he went to go have some sort of 478 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: you know, breath freshening procedure done or something like that 479 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: at the dentist and he was like, this is this 480 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: is how we're going to ring in the new year. 481 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: It's gonna be amazing. I'm in such good health and 482 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: we're just turning a new leaf and everything's great. And 483 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: that's why he had new condoms. Maybe, but I don't know, 484 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: it didn't normally happen. Problem. My problem here, though, is 485 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: is why did why would she kill him? I mean, 486 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: if you think about it, she's got a boyfriend on 487 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: the side, it appears to have been given the blessing. 488 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 1: She's with a man who can provide for her in 489 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: a manner that she has been a customed to, So 490 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense to me. But then again there's 491 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: also like, okay, well, why did dison go around and 492 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: get the chloroform in such a sneaky fashion. If everything 493 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: was going to be on board and it was all 494 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: none of it was pre planned. Here's one thing I 495 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: will say is in Portland, Oregon, proper you have to 496 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: to buy spray paint and they'll write your name in 497 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: the log or you can drive like fifteen minutes up 498 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: into Vancouver or even like just a little bit outside 499 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: of Portland, and I have to do that great job 500 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: telling all the taggers where to go. Well like, but honestly, 501 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: I don't use spray paint. Well, I mean, I don't write. 502 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: I use it for totally legal, totally normal, creative reasons. 503 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: But I would weigh rather drive the extra ten minutes 504 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: or whatever it is to not have to deal with 505 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: the whole process of the I d and like blah 506 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: blah blah. It's not quite that inconvenience as long as 507 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: there's somebody there to actually open the havn't get to 508 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: get it to you. But YE have gone through it once. Instead, 509 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: he went all over town. He went to four different 510 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: vendors to not have to deal with it. That's a 511 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: lot of commuting back in the day. No, I agree 512 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm just playing double's advocate here. I think 513 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: he that was super weird and suspicious. Why did he 514 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: do that? I think I actually went to three I 515 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: can't remember now he went to he said, he went 516 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: to four different locations. Yeah, and I taught it was 517 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: that you couldn't It wasn't just that they got you 518 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: to sign something without a prescription. You couldn't get more 519 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: than an ounce or two. But she but here's the 520 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: weird thing is she she had procured a prescription for 521 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: her husband. So it again seems like they should have 522 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: been able to get it. Well, now, actually what she's 523 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: What he said in his testimony to the court is 524 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: that when she asked him uh to do it, he said, well, 525 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: why don't she get why doesn't your doctor give it 526 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: to you? And she said, well, actually it's Annie, our 527 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: nurse who was away on vacation. Now she usually gets it, 528 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: and so I need to get chloroforms with somewhere else, 529 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: so can you guess time for me? And so that's 530 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: what he did. And yeah, but that's what he said. 531 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: An that's what he said in court that he said 532 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: to her, walk out the doctor. I was going to say, 533 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: even if she did have a prescription if she wasn't 534 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: going herself, and or you know, the person who the 535 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: prescription was written for, Irwin wasn't Edwin. Sorry, I wasn't 536 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: going himself. I don't know how. I don't know if 537 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: pharmacists will fill it for just anyone, you know what 538 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: I mean, if you don't have prescription. I don't think 539 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: there would have been a little looser back in those days. 540 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: But back to your your thing about why would she 541 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: kill him? Though I could think of one good reason. 542 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: He's been he's been in bad health for a long time. 543 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: She's been nursing it for a long time, and he's 544 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: tired of it. You know, she wants a life. She's 545 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: still fairly young. Alternately, sorry, go ahead, she's still fairly 546 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: honestly thinking of if he dies sooner rather than later, 547 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: maybe I could still have some semblance of a life. 548 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: You know, for a little while, I was just thinking 549 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: of going back again to him. His health getting better, 550 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: maybe she maybe you know, he said, um, oh yeah, 551 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: my health is getting better. Now I don't have all 552 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: these limitations. We can resume our physical relationship. We can 553 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: become a husband and wife again. You can stop your 554 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: side thing, your side, hustle with this other guy. That's fine. 555 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: Here we go. We're I mean, we're gonna do our 556 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: thing and this is we're gonna be a married couple. 557 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: And she was like, oh no, that's not what I 558 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: wanted it all. Yeah, maybe she was actually like in 559 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: the you know George Dyson better. And maybe also she's 560 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: been poisoning him the entire time, the level of keeping 561 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: him sick. Yeah, and uh yeah, that's that's entirely possible. Now, 562 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: now how did she go about doing it? So that's 563 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: part of this theory is okay, well, how did she 564 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: do it? Because obviously when he was asleep, she didn't 565 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: just or if she had knocked him out with chloroform, 566 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: she didn't then just pour it down his gull in 567 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: because that would have taken it would have taken too 568 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: long ago down his throat and it would have caused 569 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: the burns. There's the whole brandy thing, So there's that 570 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: glass of brandy. So maybe she lied when she said 571 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,040 Speaker 1: she woke up and used the brandy to try to 572 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: revive him, and instead she, as the theory goes, put 573 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: the chloroform in his brand. He said, hey, it's new year's. 574 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: It's New Year's, sweetie, Let's have a toast, and he 575 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: tosses it back, unknowingly ingesting the poison. It's going to 576 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: kill it. This is a really dumb question, but I oh, 577 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: I keep wondering this about this case. Is um it 578 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: had to have been ingestion, right, I wondered too, if 579 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: it was like a needle or something. I wondered that too. 580 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: I would assume that because it wasn't autopsy, I would 581 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: assume it would look for needle marks. But I can 582 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: I would assume that too. But I can think of 583 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: two other ways you can get into the stomach, though, 584 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: One is to it to intubation, just if you knocked 585 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: him out. You can run a tube down his throat 586 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: and and pour it in that way, although then again, 587 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: I'm not so sure that she was that well informed 588 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: about the effects of chlorine that she would have known 589 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: would have done. Another possibility is that he had eaten 590 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: a meal not too long before his death. It's possible 591 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: you could have put it in the food itself and 592 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: not in some sort of sealed form like a capsule 593 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: or something like kind of inside a kind of steak, 594 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: And that would be really hard for him to chew 595 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: and swallow. He's not really. Yeah, he might, he might, 596 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: but I would think that he would observe that in 597 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: his food unless he was on a truly liquid diet, 598 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: you know, like mashed potatoes and soup. The problem with 599 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: chloroform those that evaporates so fast that if you poured 600 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,479 Speaker 1: into his soup and he's like, I'm talking, yeah, I'm 601 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: talking about encapsulated form, so he can't taste it, can't 602 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: smell it. I don't remember anything about them finding anything 603 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: like that in his in his stomach, at least not 604 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: noted in the recordings. They think they would have noted that. 605 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: But there could have been something, some natural form of something. 606 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: You know. Maybe she broke up in a wall nut 607 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: and filled up with chloroform and it's superglued it back together, 608 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: you know, and that fed that to him, and they 609 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: were on the and then the autopsy they weren't. Oh 610 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: it's weird. There's an entire all nut shell in the stomach. 611 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: You know, this is this is the century, of course, Okay, 612 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: but obviously, and I don't seriously literally been something. But yeah, 613 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: I know you're right. I mean, he could she could 614 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,439 Speaker 1: have just poisoned him in a bunch of different ways. Yeah, 615 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,240 Speaker 1: so let's move to our third theory, our third culprit, 616 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:28,800 Speaker 1: which is the Reverend George Dyson. Um. Now, the hardest 617 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 1: part about this story is that, as we talked about earlier, 618 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: Dyson says, he went to all these places and got 619 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: the chloroform, and then when everything was said and done 620 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: and the cops were onto him, quote unquote, it seemed 621 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: like the cops were onto him, he was walking on 622 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: a path and he chucked the bottles on the side 623 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: of a path. So he just he got rid of 624 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: that evidence, which you know, I would imagine if he 625 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: truly had gotten it from different places, they might be 626 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: able to I d that I don't know, mess spectrometer 627 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: or whatever they would use, but of course and have 628 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: that available. She also, though she threw away the bottle 629 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: that she had her chloroform in the four ounces that 630 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: he had given her. I think she chucked it in 631 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: a railway trash can if I remember right. So they're 632 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: both they're both seemed guilty here, and they're both throwing 633 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: evidence away. Yeah, and especially she liked the guiltiest of 634 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,439 Speaker 1: the two. If you can believe his testimony, anyway, because 635 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: apparently she said one of the reasons. He asked her, well, 636 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: why does he need chloroform? And and she was like, well, 637 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: he's got this this internal problem that it gives in 638 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: paroxyism or something, and then chloroformis for that. And then 639 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: after then you get to the chloroform, and then he dies, 640 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 1: and then there's an autopsy. And he talked to the 641 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: doctor after the autopsy about the autopsy results, and there 642 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: was chloroform in his body, but also no internal problems 643 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: noted at all. So he confronts here and says, well, 644 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 1: what's this all? You said he had all these these 645 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: big internal issues and but there's nothing shows up in 646 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: the autopsy. What was that about? And she's and and 647 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: then he says, you know, by the way, a chloroform, 648 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to have to come clean. And 649 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: she was like, no, no, you can't tell anybody about chloroform. 650 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 1: And I think Edwin was a bit of a hypochondriac 651 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 1: because he's he's got all these illnesses and all these issues, 652 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: and yet when the doctors examine him they can find 653 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: no cause. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's one of those 654 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: those things, you know. I shouldn't self diagnose for that reason, 655 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: you know, like my psych teachers warned warned us. You know, 656 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, when you start reading about all 657 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: these very psychological issues, don't don't start because you are 658 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: self diagnosing yourself as psychotic. You aren't. Okay, well maybe something, yeah, 659 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: but probably not. Yeah. I mean, I guess I can 660 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,879 Speaker 1: see kind of an argument of just you know, being 661 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: kind of an idiot and saying, okay, listen, the police 662 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: are onto us. They know that Edwin died of um 663 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: chloroform poisoning, and I have chloroform. I know they're looking 664 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: at me. I know I didn't do anything wrong wrong, 665 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: but it sure is gonna look like I did something 666 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: wrong if they find these bottles. So I'll just get 667 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 1: rid of them and then there it won't look like 668 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 1: I did anything wrong at all. And from his point 669 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: of view, you know, he's been even if he's if 670 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,439 Speaker 1: he was totally innocent, even the way the law looks 671 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: at it, especially in the way society that's had it. 672 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: Back in those days. Women were when we were delicate creatures, 673 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: they weren't they weren't typically murderous. He's almost always the guy, 674 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: so it actually almost always says the guy. Yeah, yeah, 675 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: but but and so he even though she might have 676 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: totally snared him, uh he and he just decided, you know, 677 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: maybe I'd better shut up about this stuff and get 678 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 1: rid of the evidence. And I think that's probably what 679 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: happened here. You know. The other thing I keep thinking 680 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 1: of is Edwin, you know, with the whole chucking of 681 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: the bottles. He's kind of lucky that he was in 682 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: London of eighteen eighty five instead of London of seventeen, 683 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: where everything is on CCTV, so they could have actually 684 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: probably seen where he was. You No, I'm sorry, I 685 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 1: meant George, I'm sorry. I totally got their own person. 686 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: No Dyson, because Dyson is the one who says he 687 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 1: chucked him when he was walking on a path. Well, 688 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: today there is a square inch of London that doesn't 689 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: have a camera unless yeah, that's that's true. Okay, Well, 690 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: let's move on to the last theory here. Uh and 691 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: this is not an official theory, This is just a 692 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: Steve theory. This is my favorite theory though, and it's 693 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: the dentist, the dentist medical misadventure. Perhaps, yes, because this 694 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: guy is such a nut job it's entirely possible that 695 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 1: he's probably knocking Edwin out if he's doing any kind 696 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: of procedure to him that involves sawing off of teeth 697 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: with live roots. So you could see him either pouring 698 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: it down through what Joe said, intubation, or maybe some 699 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: chloroform tablets fall He's a klots and whoa they fall 700 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: down his throat. He's like, well, it'll be okay. I 701 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: won't tell him about the seven two pills and I 702 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: accidentally poured down his throat. I think they would have 703 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,359 Speaker 1: kicked in a little sooner. Now, I was going to say, 704 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: I think chloroform only takes a few hours. Well, I mean, 705 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: if it depends on how if the if it was innovative, 706 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 1: but if the if it was pills, like Joe said, 707 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: it might give it a longer life. I really just 708 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: want to disparage this dentist as much as I can, because, 709 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: oh my god, it's hard to say. Well, back in 710 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,240 Speaker 1: those days, it's really hard to say how many people 711 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: are actually killed by their doctors and their dentists. Probably 712 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: quite a few. Well, and we're lucky today because we 713 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: can look at these things and figure it out. But 714 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,280 Speaker 1: at that time. It's uh, this is my best guests 715 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: all I really know. I got no good heart science 716 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: to back it up. I I kind of like this 717 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: theory because I kind of imagine this sort of primitive 718 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: gas masks sort of thing, right with the chloroform being 719 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: narrated at them, just like the smell. But it's defective 720 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: because this dentist is a quack. Yeah, it's just like, yeah, totally, 721 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: just like there's a like a constant drip of it 722 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: down his throat and for some reason, I don't know 723 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: why it doesn't burn his throat. But you know the 724 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: problem is that at that time, they didn't use the mask. 725 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: It literally was they were just taking a rag. It 726 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 1: was why people were actually dying at the debts because 727 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: there was no actual you know, time scientifically figured out 728 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: how long it should be there. So they would give 729 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 1: the same amount to you, devon at your size as 730 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,320 Speaker 1: they would to Joe, who is a much larger person 731 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: compared to you. I was gonna say, and that would 732 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,359 Speaker 1: just kill Joe. I mean would think it actually might 733 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 1: be the other way around. You could be right because 734 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: my science. Yeah, so yeah, they doctors were killing people 735 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah, I mean it's hard very with 736 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: annesthesia these days, they very very carefully measure all that 737 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: stuff and only do it if they absolutely think they 738 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,360 Speaker 1: have to. I mean they I've been to several medical 739 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: procedures are like, do you we don't really want to 740 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:53,920 Speaker 1: put you under? Do you do you want to go? 741 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: And I'm like, no, fine, turn on the radio so 742 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: I have to listen to it. It's fine. Yeah. I've 743 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 1: only been under once and it was one of the 744 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: most disconcerting experiences of my entire life. Yeah, so I 745 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: don't really want Yeah, I only wants for me too. 746 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: And then I want to woke up everybody. Everybody was 747 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 1: standing there on smiling never again. Yeah yeah, and we 748 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: need to talk to you about that tattoo. Yeah, okay, Yeah, 749 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: I mean I like the dentist theory. I agree the 750 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: timeline doesn't totally line up. But you know, of the 751 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: people I think he's it's just as easy to prove 752 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 1: that he did it as anyone else, uh, and not 753 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: even necessarily necessarily deliberately. I mean, he might have given 754 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 1: him some pills for this that or whatever, and you know, 755 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 1: and he seems to be the one that's giving Edwin 756 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: the pills with mercury in him. Although you will see 757 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: accounting as it written that Edwin was suffering from an 758 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,919 Speaker 1: STD or an s t I, which like syphilis, which 759 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: mercury was used to treat that. But there's absolutely no 760 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 1: proof of that. And you know in his examination, they 761 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 1: didn't find anything when they examined his body, so that's 762 00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: the mercury was working. Yes, yeah, but also according to Ice, 763 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 1: and though he's he did say most definitively that he 764 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 1: had worms, and and so I'm I wouldn't be surprised 765 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: at all he was taking mercury for that, and maybe 766 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 1: maybe he's taking his regular dosage of mercury for the 767 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: worms or whatever. And then the dentist prescribed some new 768 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: pills that very day which happened to have mercury in them, 769 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: and the odeed i'm mercury. But then that still doesn't explain. 770 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 1: It doesn't explain the chloroform. Doesn't explain the chloroform, which 771 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,480 Speaker 1: is why this story is so fun. It's just you 772 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 1: were just running in circles. I think, no, I think 773 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: what happened is it was the wife shuld just say, 774 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 1: you know one day that they're just sitting around and 775 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: it's just and she just probably said, you know what, darling, 776 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:35,919 Speaker 1: it's been so long since I've been in a chuck 777 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,400 Speaker 1: lug contest. Why don't we check some brandy? And and 778 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 1: so it just so he just just chugged it down 779 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 1: so fast he couldn't taste the chloroform in there. And 780 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: then damn. Oh, well, one thing I think there is 781 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,879 Speaker 1: there's it's still I'm still thinking there is some possibility 782 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,719 Speaker 1: of some sort of clever introduction through the food into 783 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,360 Speaker 1: his stomach. That's a possibility to will you science that 784 00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,720 Speaker 1: out and then come back to us. Okay, that's your homework, 785 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: and I'm not eating any meals here. Most likely he 786 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 1: just slugged down some brandy that have been spiked. Well, 787 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: that's all we've got on this particular story. If you 788 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: have thoughts or comments or questions about this one, you 789 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: can always reach out to us by email by sending 790 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: an email to Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. Uh, 791 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:22,919 Speaker 1: you can go to our website where you can read 792 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,719 Speaker 1: some of the research about this story. You can also 793 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: find links to our episode history. All of that's available 794 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 1: on the website Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. We're on 795 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: social media, so we're on Twitter, we've got a Facebook 796 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: page and a Facebook group, and of course we're on Reddit, 797 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 1: so we're on all the social media sites. Uh and 798 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,759 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to us, obviously you like it. We're 799 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,360 Speaker 1: on all the sources. But you go ahead and continue 800 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,719 Speaker 1: to use this one. If it does allow you to 801 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 1: rate and review the podcast, that would be fantastic, and 802 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 1: we do appreciate that. That's all we've got to share 803 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 1: this week. Uh So, I guess we're gonna get out 804 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 1: of here thought. Hi everybody, Bye, guys. The story you 805 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 1: just heard was inspired by The Alienist T and T 806 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: S new limited series starring Daniel Brule, Luke Evans, and 807 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 1: Dakota Fanning. To learn more, visit the Alienist dot Com. 808 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: That's the Alienist dot Com A l I E n 809 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:29,279 Speaker 1: I S t