1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 2: I was a CIA officer stationed around the world in 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 2: high threat posts in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: and in war zones. 6 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 3: We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive our adversaries. 7 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 8 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 2: theories large and small. 9 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated? 10 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 2: This is mission implausible. Today's guest is Gabriel Gatehouse. Gabriel's 11 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 2: an award winning journalist and broadcaster. He is the author 12 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 2: of a book in the excellent BBC podcast Theories called 13 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 2: The Coming Storm that looks at QAnon and the January 14 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 2: sixth conspiracies, and the book subtitle is a Journey into 15 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 2: the Heart of the Conspiracy Machine. Abral, My first question 16 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: is can you tell us what the heart of that 17 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: machine looks like? And is there any surgery that can 18 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 2: save it. 19 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: It's a very it's a strange and dark place jun 20 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: the heart of that machine. In a way, I was 21 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: slightly doubtful about the subtitle because the heart of the 22 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: conspiracy machine makes it sound like a conspiracy basically that 23 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: there's somebody there pulling the levers, creating these conspiracy theories 24 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:20,839 Speaker 1: to some dark and diabolical end. And in some cases 25 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: that is true. But in many cases you're nodding. See 26 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: you nodding away, Jerry. But in many cases these conspiracy 27 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: theories are organic at least to begin with, and they 28 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: grow out of the malaise of modern capitalism, the paranoid 29 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: style in American politics, the great knack that you guys 30 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: in America have for telling a story. You just you 31 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: guys just love a story. And the weirder, even if 32 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: it's especially if it's wrong, right, it's the weirder and 33 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: more wonderful it is the more you like it. And 34 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: that's why you gave the world Hollywood and all of 35 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: this amazing stuff. But you're now being eaten up by 36 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: our own infotainment industry. Yes, I'm sorry to be the 37 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: bearer of bad news, so Gab, I have to admit 38 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: I am a sucker for a British accent, in fact, 39 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: so much so that I'm marrying one. 40 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 3: Right, But is there something peculiar about the American brand 41 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 3: or our version of conspiracies? 42 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: Of course, it's not just an American thing, but so 43 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: often you guys just do it better. It's interesting to me. 44 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: I do think it has something to do with this 45 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: kind of great tradition of storytelling. It's a wonderful place 46 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: to work because even the kind of fully red pilled, 47 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: completely objectively bonkers people are usually actually really nice if 48 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: you come to them with a sort of open mind 49 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: and say, look, I don't think you and I agree 50 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: on a whole hell of a lot. I don't believe 51 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: in most of the things that you believe in, but 52 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: I am interested in why you believe them and what 53 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: might lie behind it, and I have an open mind, 54 00:02:58,440 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: So why don't you just talk to me? And people 55 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,959 Speaker 1: just mostly very generous with their time and their insights. 56 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: We British were constantly judging who we might be talking 57 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: to and what their views might be, or what social 58 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: strata they might come from, and we're fine tuning out. 59 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: America is not like that. They just go for it. 60 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: I want to take a shot at the British though. 61 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: It's please please do yes, it's a historical tradition. 62 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So we have got QAnon and all the 63 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 3: craziness for this. And I looked into British conspiracy theories 64 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 3: around this, and all I could come up was was 65 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 3: the voting pencil conspiracy right that the pencil provided to 66 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 3: you with the polling stations, that somehow m I five 67 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 3: was like erasing it and putting it back. But we 68 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 3: have bamboo fibers from China and all the rest of it. 69 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: I've never heard that conspiracy theory, so thank you for 70 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: adding that one. 71 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: Well, you guys did Brexit before we did the generous 72 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 2: six stuff or whatever, So. 73 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: We did Brexit. But Brexit. Brexit wasn't the conspiracy much 74 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: as many of my liberal friends liked to think it was. 75 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: A lot of people over here think that Brexit was 76 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: created by the Russians as a sciop or something, which 77 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: is of course palpable nonsense. We need to look at 78 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: ourselves and the European Union and why it was that 79 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: a majority of people decided they didn't like this institution 80 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: that was giving them all this prosperity. 81 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: But the way politics can be used as people could 82 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 2: make simple, perhaps false or largely untrue statements or stories 83 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 2: that people would follow and. 84 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 1: Believe it's politics. Right. You create a narrative and you 85 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: hope that your narrative is going to be stronger than 86 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,799 Speaker 1: the other guy's narrative, right, And unfortunately, a three word 87 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: slogan like take back control is a stronger narrative than well, 88 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: everything's kind of fine. Well it's not really fine, but 89 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 1: really if we just don't really do anything, things might 90 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: get better. So let's not just not do anything, right, 91 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: that's just not a fair good narrative. You know, Trump 92 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: has strong messaging, whatever you may think of him, he's 93 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 1: got killer political instincts, and he's got a strong message 94 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: defeat the deep state. You guys. 95 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 3: Doing some research on you, I found one thing really 96 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 3: compelling that you put across that the conventions of right 97 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 3: and left are all fair. 98 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: They should be thrown out the window. 99 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 3: And it's really pro system and anti system. Those who 100 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,919 Speaker 3: want to throw the baby out, the baby and the 101 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 3: bath water are out, and those that are looking to 102 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 3: reform or at least push forward. 103 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: With what we I think in a way, I wouldn't 104 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: say this began with the nineties, but I feel like 105 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: the nineties in so many ways is the beginning of 106 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: everything that we're at now. It was this kind of 107 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: weird period of kind of geopolitical stasis, the end of history. 108 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: You guys had successfully defeated the Soviet Union. Liberalism, yes, 109 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: very good liberalism in all its forms had one right, 110 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: economic liberalism. Globalization was in full swing. We don't need 111 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: it anymore exactly. And you know, I as somebody who 112 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: just graduated mid nineties with a degree in Russian, like 113 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: nobody needed that anymore. But in another way, everything was 114 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: just beginning right the Internet, that kind of the breakdown 115 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: of the of consensus and the establishment fueled by tech. 116 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: But the thing that Bill Clinton was so brilliant ad 117 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: was he just occupied such a vast swathe of the 118 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: center ground in politics that basically to oppose Clinton you 119 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: had to be on the fringes right. You either had 120 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: to be on the far right. You know, Newt Gingrich 121 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: kind of throwing out conspiracy theories as it were, Vince 122 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: Foster and this White House lawyer who'd committed suicide, and 123 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: all these kind of tales were being spun around him 124 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: about how really he was having an affair with Hillary 125 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: Clinton and she'd rolled him up at a carpet and 126 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: left him at a safe house in Virginia and then 127 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 1: dumped him in a park and blah blah blah. So 128 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: that was coming from the right or on the left. 129 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: You basically had to go further and further left to 130 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: oppose Bill Clinton. So what that set up was this 131 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: this political dynamic which is now coming back to bite us, 132 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: which is not the war between right and left, which 133 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: is the paradigm that you guys grew up in and 134 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: grew up fighting and that I was born into. But 135 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: it's the paradigm of the center versus the fringes. And 136 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: I think what's happened in America and the polling bears 137 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: this out. I remember there was one extraordinary bit of 138 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: polling where they asked people about their views of the 139 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: whole political and economic system in the United States. Did 140 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: people a think it was doing just fine. Did they 141 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: be think it was doing okay but maybe needed minor modifications. 142 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: They added up to about thirty eight percent. Then there 143 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: were the people who said, no, the system is really 144 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: in deep trouble and it needs root and branch reform. 145 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: Or the people who said it's so screwed we should 146 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: burn it all down and start from the beginning. And 147 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: that lot of people added up to about sixty percent. 148 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: Right now, it's very clear who is the burn it 149 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: all down candidate here? Right. So when I saw that 150 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: little bit of polling buried right at the bottom of 151 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: the pole, I was like, he's going to win. He's 152 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: going to win again. And it's clear. And because the 153 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: people who are now in power in your country are 154 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: so certifiably bonkers. Often even though they quite often put 155 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: their finger on the problems, they're very good at identifying 156 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: real problems. It's just their solutions are totally batshit. But 157 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: what's happened is that the Democrats and what used to 158 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: be called establishment Republicans but are now outcasts, have become 159 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: the party of people who are saying, la la la la, 160 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: la la la, we're not listening. Everything's fine, just stop 161 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: tinkering with the system and that's not working. 162 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: Actually, let's dig in a little bit deeper to the 163 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: nineties thing. 164 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: There's an interesting can I just say something, Yes, So 165 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: this whole Vince Foster, My sort of conceit in the 166 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: coming storm was that I identified the death of Vince 167 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 1: Foster is basically ground zero. That led to Qanoni of 168 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: the Yeah exactly patients. 169 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: What Hillary Clinton then called a vast right wing conspiracy. 170 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: A vast right wing conspiracy, which was an idea that 171 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: was fed to her by a political consultant named Chris Lahne, 172 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: who we interviewed for the podcast. Very interesting guy. We 173 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: then went off to work in Silicon Valley. But so 174 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: the Monica Lewinsky connection is this that the woman who 175 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: first clipped off the world to the whole Monica Lewinsky 176 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: thing was Linda Tripp, who was also the last person 177 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: to see Vince Foster alive. She was then a White 178 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: House assistant, and she brought him his lunch. And in 179 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 1: all the kind of hook plat around what had happened 180 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: to Vince Foster, and there was a question of what 181 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: had he eaten for his lunch, And in one account 182 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: he'd eaten the hamburger with a side of Eminem's, and 183 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: in another account there were no Eminems and it was 184 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: a cheeseburger and he'd removed the onions. And this was 185 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: like the kind of beginnings of the inconsistencies of the 186 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: account of Vince Foster's death that people started to pull 187 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: out and to poke at until it grew into this 188 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: monstrous conspiracy theory about how he'd been murdered because he 189 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: knew too much. Look, what happened in the nineties was 190 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: that there were all these Batchett conspiracy theories, and there 191 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: was also an actual conspiracy to create conspiracies called the 192 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: Arkansas Project right, which was funded by a wealthy guy 193 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: wealthy air called rich a Melonscape, and it was basically 194 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: sending out people to dredge up the wildest stories from 195 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: the swamps of Arkansas and put them into print, true 196 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: or not, and then the White House obviously would rebut 197 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: these things, and most of them were kind of wild, 198 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: but some of them were obviously quite true. And the 199 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: thing was that the not only the White Houses you expect, 200 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 1: but the establishment media for want of a better word, 201 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: in the nineties also treated the stories about Bill Clinton 202 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: and his philandering and sometimes worse right. Because let's not 203 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: forget that there were worse stories than Monica Lewinski, which 204 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: whatever you say about that relationship was consensual, There were 205 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: worse stories. There was Juernita Broadrick, who alleged that Bill 206 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: Clinton had raped her violently in a hotel room in 207 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: Arkansas in nineteen seventy eight, And the reason people found 208 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: her account credible was because she never wanted to tell 209 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: it and was forced under threat of perjury to tell 210 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: it by the Star Inquiry and it then got completely 211 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: buried because it didn't fit the narrative. I spoke to 212 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: Juanita and she said Starr and his lawyers kept asking her, 213 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: did anyone ever threaten you to keep quiet about this? 214 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: And she was like no. And then she then they 215 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: were like, did anyone ever offer you any inducements, any 216 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: money or jobs or anything to keep quiet about this? 217 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: She was like no, no one spoke to me about 218 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: it at all, and so then they were like, Oh, 219 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: we can't do obstructural justice, so let's just forget about it. 220 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: The question of whether the president of the United States 221 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: had violently raped a woman was secondary to the political considerations. 222 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: And so my through line is that narrative about the 223 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: Clinton's actually being people was pressed beneath the surface because 224 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: some of the genuinely bad stuff that was credible and 225 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: worthy of reporting on by serious journalists also wasn't touched 226 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: because of all the batchit stuff right, and nobody wanted 227 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: to be associated with that. As somebody put it at 228 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: the time, that story was fruit from a poison tree. 229 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 1: Nobody wanted to touch it. But at the same time, 230 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 1: technology was developing. First it was to a radio, and 231 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: then it was the email newsletter, and then it was 232 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: the kind of full blown Internet and these stories started 233 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: breathing like bacteria and petridition, growing and multiplying and mutating. 234 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,959 Speaker 1: Fast forward twenty years and you've got a White House 235 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: reporter in twenty twenty asks President Trump. I think it's 236 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: the first time that QAnon ever comes up at a 237 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: White House briefing. It's a brilliant clip. If you could 238 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: dig it out. It's amazing because you can see Donald 239 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: Trump's political instincts kicking in. The reporter goes, mister President, 240 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: this is this theory that you're secretly fighting a cabal 241 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: of satanic pedophiles. Does that sound like something you might 242 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: be involved in? And you can see Donald Trump's eyes 243 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: getting to and he's thinking, is this what is this? 244 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 4: It is this belief that you are secretly saving the 245 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 4: world from this sitanic cult of pedophiles and cannibals. Does 246 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 4: that sound like something you are behind? 247 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: Well, I haven't, I haven't heard that. But is that 248 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 1: supposed to be a. 249 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 5: Bad thing or a good thing? I mean, you know, 250 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 5: if I can help save the world from problems, I'm 251 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 5: willing to do it. 252 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: I'm willing to put. 253 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 5: Myself out there and we are actually we're saving the 254 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 5: world from a radical left philosophy that will destroy this country. 255 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 5: And when this country is gone, the rest of the 256 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 5: world would follow. 257 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: He doesn't really know what this conspiracy theory is at 258 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: that time, I'm convinced, but he consentsed that it is 259 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: useful to him and that he can use it. And 260 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: there were people around him who knew that it was 261 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: useful to him, and so they weaponized it. Let's pass 262 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: for a second. We'll be right back. 263 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 6: Another interesting thing that you bring up is from the nineties, 264 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 6: is that in ninety seven a book came out, The 265 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 6: Sovereign Individual and I guess it had an American investor 266 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 6: in a British politician with an odd name, Reese. 267 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: Maurice mog You say, he's got an odd name, but 268 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: he's one of the most well known names in political 269 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: circles here because Americans, and he's he is about Brexit. 270 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: His son was, and yes so his son, that Jacob 271 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: was one of the kind of pre eminent Brexit. 272 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 3: But they outlined what we would today call the conspiracy 273 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 3: theory in the center of gravity of that it's very 274 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 3: applicable today. Right, it's all about tech bros. All the 275 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 3: darks running the world who don't pay you know, basically 276 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 3: describes Peter Teal and Elon Musk and their impact and 277 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 3: their impact on how we think and how we nationality 278 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 3: Texas government. I guess Peter teelhead it reprinted, right. 279 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, in twenty twenty. Well, it's one of his favorite books. 280 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: So it's published in seven, nineteen ninety seven. It's called 281 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: The Sovereign Individual, and the subtitle is something like Mastering 282 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: the Transition to the Digital Age or something like that, 283 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: and it is it's incredibly foresightful, prophetic even right. It 284 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: predicts in nineteen ninety seven all sorts of things that 285 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: have come down the tracks, AI, the gig economy, offshore taxing. Basically, 286 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: they say, you know, the Internet basically had the click 287 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: of a mouse button, you can move your money from 288 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: one jurisdiction to the other. Cryptocurrencies they predict this is 289 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: more than ten years before bitcoin. And they predict that 290 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: all of this it's not a conspiracy theory, it's a 291 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: sort of exercise in crystal ballgazing and political analysis. They 292 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: predict that all of these technological factors will lead to 293 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: the collapse of the nation state and the dollar will collapse, 294 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: Crypto will replace it. States will lose their ability to 295 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: basically carry out the basic functions of any government, which 296 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: is collecting taxes and providing services, and in their stead 297 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: will rise the sovereign individual, vastly wealthy and unimaginably powerful 298 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: individuals whose power, in the words of the authors, will 299 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: rival that of the Greek gods of Mount Olympus. 300 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 2: Does it measure the w South African? Does it say 301 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 2: anything about it? 302 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: It does not mention that they will all be South Africa. 303 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: So peed Teel was an investment who was I think 304 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 1: the first outside investor in Facebook. He set up PayPal 305 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: with Elon Musk at the end of the nineties, and 306 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: he has been pretty on the money in certain big 307 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: trends in tech. He's one of the most sort of 308 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: powerful and influential investors in Silicon Valley. He also is 309 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,719 Speaker 1: of the right. He was editor of the I think 310 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: it's called the Stanford Review when he was at Stanford, 311 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: which was this kind of right wing student newspaper, and 312 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: he has, with his money and power, pursued that interest 313 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: deep into the kind of meme warriors of the far right. 314 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: Around twenty sixteen, when he was one of the lone 315 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: voices in Silicon Valley to come out and back Donald Trump, 316 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: and was really hanging out with these strange characters creatures 317 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: of the Internet, bloggers with names like Mensius Moldbug, whose 318 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: real name is Curtis Jarvin and who is very, very 319 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: influential in Trump circles. He's the sort of the inter 320 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: sellectual backbone, if you like, of trump Ism and Dvancism. 321 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: He's dreampt up this idea of neo reactionary, this near 322 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 1: reactionary movement where democracy in America is dead and what 323 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: America needs is an American caesar to cross the Rubican 324 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: with will to power and all this fuddy duddy nonsense 325 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: about people having a say in things. Get rid of 326 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: all of that and just dictatorship or as he likes 327 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: to call it, monarchy. And it's hard not to read 328 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: that book and look at what's going on now and 329 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: not conclude that what Peter Teel and others like about 330 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is not so much that he's a disruptor 331 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: in the terms of in parlance of Silicon Valley, but 332 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: he's a racking ball, right. He's a bulldozer that you 333 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: can drive through the whole establishment and accelerate your way 334 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: into this bright or dark future of sovereign individuals where 335 00:18:54,840 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: democracy is basically dead and power resides with these hugely 336 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: wealthy tech barons. 337 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: It's a view of the future where these very important, rich, 338 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 2: often white people will take over. But there's also this 339 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 2: view that the government just takes care of the weak people. 340 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 2: We need to get rid of the weak people. We're 341 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 2: going to We're eventually going to go to Mars anyway, 342 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 2: So does it go further? What's your sense of where 343 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 2: these people are going. 344 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: There is a kind of wing of the MAGA movement 345 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: that I think is led by people like Peter Teel 346 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: Musk and jd Vance, who's one of their kind of creatures, 347 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: David Sacks, and other South African who genuinely believe that 348 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: the in the vision of the sovereign individual and that 349 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: it's coming and they can accelerate its arrival. So for 350 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: the podcast and for the book, I spend a bit 351 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: of time with a bunch of tech guys in something 352 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: called the network state movement. So they basically what they 353 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: want to achieve is the kind of breakdown of the 354 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: nation state and instead there'll be network states. A bit like, 355 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: so you'd be able to choose your citizenship the same 356 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: way as you choose a gym membership. You look at 357 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: what they offer where they have their branches, and you go, 358 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: this fits with my needs and values, and off you go. 359 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: But they go a lot further than this. Where is 360 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: the new frontier. There is no more frontier. There's no 361 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: more virgin land on the American continent other than Greenland. 362 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 1: Of course, cyberspace is a frontier that they can control, 363 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: but also the cosmos is a frontier that they can 364 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: go out to. And a lot of the thinking behind 365 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: the sovereign individual comes out of a movement that I 366 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: think is very very little known and only ever had 367 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: a few hundred adherents. It's called the extrapy movement, the Extropians, 368 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: and it was this sort of techno radical, techno optimist 369 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 1: movement that flourished in California in the nineties. 370 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 7: Extropians are people who want to push back limits of 371 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 7: all kinds. One big one, of course, is human lifespan. 372 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 7: We want to push back the limits to human life 373 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 7: so we can live in definitely long which will mean 374 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 7: removing getting rid of these human bodies and becoming posthuman 375 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 7: as we call it. 376 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: But they were talking about all this stuff, artificial intelligence, 377 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: virtual reality, augmented intelligence, augmenting human intelligence, merging humans with machines, 378 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: cryonic preservation, and eventually conquering the cosmos. And I think 379 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: when you speak to these people as I have done, 380 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: and you hang out with them and you can get 381 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: them to talk as they do when they're amongst themselves 382 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: and not in a sort of combative interview situation, they 383 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: will openly talk about how technology is going to lead 384 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: in the next few years to a very they use 385 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: the word Darwinistic moment, where basically the weak will be 386 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: culled and pruned from the earth and the strong will 387 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: inherit it. It's a very to me, a very dark 388 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: and bleak vision of the future, but these guys freacking 389 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: love it. Well. 390 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 3: It's very South African, apart teid eugenics, Nazist sort of thing. 391 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: My point about that is that it's actually quite a 392 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: sort of quint essentially American vision, right, Yeah, yeah, eugenic 393 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: star in the US. Yeah. 394 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 3: So you have also you have also interviewed or interacted 395 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 3: with Jacob Chancey the Qmanan Sharman. 396 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: I first met him in November twenty twenty two months 397 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: before the storming of the Capitol. No one knew this guy. 398 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: I was in Arizona. I was just after the election, 399 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: and I was there to report for BBC Television on 400 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: this kind of nascent movement called Stop the Steel and 401 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: this conspiracy theory that there was a big conspiracy to 402 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: steal election. And I'm Stanley at and I spot this 403 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: guy and he's draped in furs, he's got horns on 404 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: his head, and he's carrying a sign that says c S. 405 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: So I'm like, I'm going to talk to that guy. 406 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: He looks brilliant, and he's very friendly. He's a thoroughly 407 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: nice guy. But the story he's got in his head 408 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 1: is pretty bonkers, right. He believes that a cabal of 409 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: satanic pedophiles, possibly led by Hillary Clinton, has captured the 410 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: levers of power and are now running afraid of Don Trump, 411 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: who threatens to expose them, and so they're stealing the election. 412 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: It was like he'd eaten an encyclopedia of conspiracy theories 413 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: for breakfast and was now gurgitating them in random order. 414 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: So there was bits about JFK and tunnels under the desert, 415 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: and just like a whole load of weird stuff. And 416 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: I must emphasize this. He was an absolutely lovely guy. 417 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: He was not aggressive or mean in any way. He 418 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: was genuinely open with me and telling me all about 419 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: his really weird ideas. And I thought about it, and 420 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: I thought, this guy does look fantastic, But how irresponsible 421 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: would it be for an establishment journalist working for a 422 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: serious news organization to give airtime to this nonsense. I 423 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: draw the line. I have my principles and I will 424 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: stand on them. So I said, thank you, sir, and 425 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: I did not film an interview with him, much to 426 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: my absolute regret when two months later I was sitting 427 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: in London and all the TV screens around the BBC 428 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: headquarters were focused on one thing and one thing only, 429 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: and it's the capital and the mob is storming it. 430 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: And then we cut to the Senate Chamber and there 431 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: he is the same guy with the horns and the furs, 432 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: and my I remember my camera was there. He's like, 433 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: that was that not the guy that you eat? Was that? 434 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, it's that that guy. 435 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: Did we didn't? Did we are? 436 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 5: No? 437 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: We didn't. Ah fuck, there's nothing like the kind of 438 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: the fomo of the foreign correspondent who's in the wrong 439 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 1: place at the wrong time, or even worse, who was 440 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: in the right at slightly the wrong time and made 441 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: the wrong decision and now doesn't have the scope. But 442 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: also I then realized, when I thought about it, that actually, 443 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 1: perhaps my mistake was more than just the kind of 444 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 1: one of missing the scoop. But I hadn't hadn't listened 445 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 1: to this guy properly, I hadn't heard the story that 446 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: he'd told me about the Cabbala Satanic pedophiles, and asked myself, now, 447 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: why does that seem true to him, and why does 448 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: it seem true to so many other people. We were 449 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: talking about the horseshoe and how the left and right 450 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: extremes had joined each other. A lot of what Jacob 451 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: Chanceley was talking about was extremely from the left. He 452 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 1: talks a lot about how the zero point one percent 453 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: have sewn up all the resources under global capitalism, and 454 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: they're throwing crumbs and making all us little people, just 455 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 1: turning us into mindless consumers and all this kind of 456 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: quite left wing stuff, as well as these kind of 457 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: very right wing talking points about pedophiles and whatnot. But 458 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 1: I think The kind of conclusion I came to about 459 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: this particular conspiracy theory was that if you took it literally, 460 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: which is that Hillary Clinton was leading a cabal of 461 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: Satan worshiping pedophiles from the basement of a pizza restaurant 462 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: in Washington, DC that didn't have a basement, then you're like, 463 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: it's obviously nonsense. But if you took it as a 464 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: sort of parable or a metaphor, and you heard that 465 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: story and you understood it to mean that people felt 466 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 1: that their democracy had been hijacked by more powerful people 467 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 1: whom they hadn't voted for, that the people that they 468 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: could vote for every four years or two years weren't 469 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: necessarily the most powerful people. The more powerful people were 470 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: people who were in the shadows, running big financial corporations 471 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 1: or whatever, and they were taking decisions that weren't necessarily 472 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: always to the benefit of the little people. Then you 473 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 1: were thinking, Ah, okay, maybe they've got a point. 474 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 2: We'll be back in just a moment. 475 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 3: So Trump does talk a lot about how the world 476 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 3: thinks we're fools and we're taking advantage of us and 477 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 3: laughing at us. 478 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: How does the world look at us? Though I think 479 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: they are laughing at us. 480 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 3: My British relatives think we're like knocking futs right now. 481 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: I think maybe if we were laughing at you from 482 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen to twenty twenty, we're not 483 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: laughing anymore. Shit's getting real now. And I honestly think 484 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: the serious answer to this question is I think that 485 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: most European countries and governments, whatever they may say in 486 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: public about special relationships and strongest relationship ever between Britain 487 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: and the United States, work with Trump and blah blah blah. 488 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,959 Speaker 1: We know it's over. We know that the arrangement that 489 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: lasted from nineteen forty five until twenty twenty five is 490 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: it's done. It's cooked. You can't like all you had 491 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 1: to do was watch that scene in the Oval Office 492 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: with Zelenski being pummeled and stabbed in the back and 493 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,719 Speaker 1: in the front by the country that they thought it 494 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: was its ally, and the complete unpredictability of the Trump 495 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: administration and those around him, and whatever your emotional attachment 496 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: to America, and I think there is a deep love 497 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: for America, certainly in Britain and many other European countries, 498 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: common sense says that you cannot rely on that as 499 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: an ally, So you have to cut yourself loose. You've 500 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: got to stand on your own two feet. Trump says, 501 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: We've got to stand on our own two feet, and 502 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: he's achieved that. We're going to do it, and I'm 503 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: very sad about it. You guys have been not an 504 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: unqualified force for good in the world over the past 505 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: eighty years. You have been a force for good in 506 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: the world. You've also been a force for a lot 507 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: of funck wittery. 508 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 2: We took from the British every many years. 509 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: Of you really did, you really did? And I think 510 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: I'm sitting here in Britain it feels like because we 511 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: said goodbye to our empire with barely battered an eyelid, 512 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: pretended had never happened, and we sailed straight into the 513 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: Special Relationship, and it feels now is the end of 514 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: the British Empire that we continued vicariously through you guys. 515 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: When I began my journalistic career in the BBC's Russian Service, 516 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: where we broadcast the truth or propaganda in Russian to 517 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: the former Soviet Union, and I remember thinking at around 518 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: the time of the Iraq invasion and the kind of 519 00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,959 Speaker 1: the fuck up over the weapons of mass destruction that 520 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: weren't there, and when it became clear that no one 521 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: really cared about the weapons of mass destruction, they were 522 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: just going to do it anyway. And I remember saying 523 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: to a colleague back then I was a very green, 524 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: genous I said, I think I think that the United 525 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: States of America is going to become a rogue state 526 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: in my lifetime. This was at the point where George 527 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: Bush had coined the word rogue state and access of evil. 528 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: I remember thinking, I think these guys are going to 529 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: join them, and guys you have, oh. 530 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: How are we going to be ill? Go to a 531 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 2: software question. No, I think it's true, and I'm sad 532 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 2: about it too. 533 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 3: I have to say, yeah, no, we've were not wearing 534 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 3: the white hand anymore. And with our fuck widdery or 535 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 3: whatever you call it, at least we tried to be 536 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 3: a force for good, even if we've got it long 537 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 3: as awful as Iraq was, and it spent I spent 538 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 3: like years of my life there like trying to make 539 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 3: it right. But it was like, at least if you 540 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 3: listen to the neo Kansas will bring democracy to Iraq, 541 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 3: We'll remake the Middle East. It was silly and foolish, 542 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 3: and god it had nothing to do with WMD. 543 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: They at least had the at least had the pretense 544 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: of some kind of arc of history bending towards justice 545 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: the best for them. 546 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 3: But there is one thing I really wanted to ask you. 547 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 3: I fod it fierce that you were talking with a 548 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 3: professor of folklore and he had some AI tool or 549 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 3: a machine that could extrude folkal or conspiracy, genuine conspiracies 550 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 3: from conspiracy theories. 551 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: By the sense was he wasn't able to do it right. 552 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: First of all, this guy had the most fantastic name 553 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: for somebody who's trying to untangle the tangled threat. His 554 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: name was Tim Tanglini. So he and his students had 555 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: built this bit of software really that you tried to 556 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: use machine learning and AI that he claimed could tell 557 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: a real conspiracy from a conspiracy theory. And so he 558 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: trained his machine on two events. One was Pizzagate, which 559 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: was based in the Washington, DC pizza parlor, out of 560 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: whose basement the pedophile cabal was running the world. And 561 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: the other one was something called Bridgegate, which was a 562 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: very boring and complicated story about Governor Christie of New Jersey, 563 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: whose people decided to create a massive traffic jam in 564 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: order to get back at some political rival, but blamed 565 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: it on something else. But it was an actual conspiracy 566 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: to create a traffic jam. And you know, in a way, 567 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: this is common sense. You don't really need AI for this. 568 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: But Tim Danglin, he basically said that if you take Pizzagate, 569 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: and you take one element out of Pizzagate, which is 570 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: that emails between John Podesta and his staff talking about 571 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: pizza were in fact code for child sex abuse, if 572 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: you took that away, the whole story made no sense 573 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: at all, Like the whole thing collapsed like a house 574 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: of cards. Whereas with Bridgegate, like you could take away 575 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: one element that like one source or element of it, 576 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: and but the rest of the evidence would still be 577 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: so overwhelming that the story was very hard to knock 578 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: down because it was very robust. And that was the 579 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: basis for his program. The reason I'd call him up 580 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: was because I felt myself beginning to think like a 581 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,479 Speaker 1: conspiracy theorist. I was putting post it notes up on 582 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: my wall, little bits of string look exactly, and so 583 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: I called up Tin Dangelini and I said, can you 584 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: please pull me out of my rabbit hole? And so 585 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: he said, okay, fine, just lay it all out for me, 586 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: and I'll stick it through my machine and I'll tell 587 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: you whether it's a conspiracy or a conspiracy theory. And 588 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: he put it all through his machine and it went right, 589 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: it's a conspiracy. So I was like, oh, fuck, now 590 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: I've got to go deeper. And so I started digging deeper. 591 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: And I did feel for a while like I was 592 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: turning into a conspiracy theorist. This is what the Trumpies 593 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: call this, not QAnon, but bluing on right, And what 594 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: are the conspiracy theories that blew and on? People believe 595 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: in that Donald Trump was a Russian agent, for example, 596 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: that there's a p tape, compromant Steele doc and all 597 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: of that kind of stuff. So I was worried that 598 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: I was becoming blue and on. And at the end 599 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: of the day, was there a conspiracy in the nineties 600 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: to start seeding conspiracy theories about the Clintons with the 601 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: aim that eventually, twenty five years later, it would lead 602 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: to the storing of the Capitol and the downfall of 603 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: the nation state and the collapse of the dollar. And 604 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: the rise of crypto and the sovereign individuals. Of course 605 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:26,479 Speaker 1: not that's just. 606 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: Like butsense Gabriel. This goes back to your beginning where 607 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 2: you say a lot of them are organic, right, But 608 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 2: what happens is like if you go on q andon. Right, 609 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 2: So there's you talk about in your series, Ron Watkins 610 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 2: and the Philippines and q and Arizona and these things, 611 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 2: and it looks like it comes together organically. But then 612 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,760 Speaker 2: there's a non organic piece where people like Jason Sullivan 613 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 2: and other people see that it's a conspiracy theory then 614 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 2: weaponize it through software to promote it on Twitter and 615 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 2: other social media campaigns to help a political campaign. So 616 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 2: there's a there's an organic piece that eventually has grabbed 617 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 2: by others. 618 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,439 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, and I think it's I think it's great, 619 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,280 Speaker 1: yeah and used, and I think anything that's definitely what happened. 620 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: And you mentioned those names Jason Sullivan and people who 621 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: worked on the campaign and very knowingly and wittingly thought 622 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: this possibly likely organically created conspiracy called QAnon could be 623 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: useful to us, so let's just use it. This is politics. 624 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: But I think the same the same thing holds true 625 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: for the whole kind of Russia meddling thing. I know, 626 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: both here in Britain over Brexit and in America over 627 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: Trump's first election, there are a lot of people who 628 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: are holding on very tightly by their fingertips to the 629 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: idea that it was really all the Russians and everything 630 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: was fine in the Land of Milk and honey, that 631 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: is the United States of America until the Russians started 632 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: coming in with their nonsense. Now, I spent a lot 633 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: of time in Russia with Russians, and there are some 634 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: very clever people there. They're not that clever. And what 635 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: happened in twenty sixteen was, yes, the Russians had the 636 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:06,280 Speaker 1: troll farm, and yes they were weaponizing divisions in American 637 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: society and doing it quite effectively. But those divisions were there, 638 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: and they were organic, and they were real divisions. They 639 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: weren't they hadn't been plucked out of thin air by 640 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: the Kremlin. And my strong feeling is to keep HARKing 641 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: back to the Russians is it means you don't look 642 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 1: in the mirror and you don't go, why the fuck 643 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: have we ended up in this place? You could just 644 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: go us the Russians that did it. But one's responsibility 645 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: is to look at yourself and your society in the 646 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,959 Speaker 1: mirror and try and figure out where you've gone so wrong, 647 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: not to point the finger at somebody else. Fair enough, 648 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: So what are you doing now to stay saying? Are 649 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 1: you detoxing from? 650 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 2: Again? 651 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: I get there to say anything. John knows what I'm 652 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: doing the new podcast series. And I absolutely wanted to 653 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: do what you suggest, Jerry, which is I wanted to 654 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 1: have no more to do with any conspiracy theories or 655 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: anything to do with any of that madness. And then 656 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: I came across this crazy story about football and the 657 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: CIA in the nineteen seventies, and I got wind of change. 658 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 1: It's like wind of change but soccer. So I'm doing that. 659 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,439 Speaker 1: I'm also and now you can see how badly I'm 660 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 1: failing at getting away from conspiracy theories, super interested in UFOs. 661 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: But this administration, for all its failings, does at least 662 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: seem to have a sort of crazy drive towards radical transparency. 663 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: They're just like declassifying everything. I don't know how you 664 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: guys feel about that, but they're declassifying and amid all 665 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: the kind of JFK files and RFK files and MLK files. 666 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: They're also apparently drive to declassify the UFO files. But 667 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:55,439 Speaker 1: it turns out that UFOs are real. There are there 668 00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: are Yeah, not everything is explicable. There are things that 669 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 1: fly that are unidentified, otherwise known as unidentified flying objects. 670 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: But anyway, it does turn out apparently that you, guys 671 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: and the Pentagon various other agencies have been taking this 672 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: ship seriously for quite a long time, while pretending that 673 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: you weren't taking it seriously. 674 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 2: What's Unfortunately, we keep having these conversations at the end, 675 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 2: like Jerry and I are beaten down where we go 676 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 2: and where's the optimism? 677 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,280 Speaker 1: Here? The optimism? I have something for you because everyone 678 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: keeps asking me, Everyone keeps asking me this, and so 679 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: I've come up with something. It's a little tenuous, but 680 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 1: here it is. Bear with me. So I believe that 681 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:41,320 Speaker 1: we are experiencing the beginning of a period of epochal change, 682 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: the likes of which we haven't seen for about five 683 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: hundred years since the printing press, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, 684 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: all that stuff once in a half a millennium epochal shift. 685 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: And we are naturally feeling very nervous about the crumbling 686 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,240 Speaker 1: stablishment and institutions and all the certainties that we've taken 687 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: for granted just crumbling all around us. So what I 688 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,399 Speaker 1: do in these moments of existential dread is I think 689 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 1: myself into the mind of a fifteenth century German peasant 690 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: who is tied to the land and sees the printing 691 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: press coming out and Martin Luther nailing his things to 692 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: the door jam, and he's wringing his hands over the 693 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 1: death of the feudal order, and he's like, how is 694 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: the world going to function once we're no longer tied 695 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: to the land and the monasteries don't provide for all 696 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: of our arms, and what healthcare remains if you can 697 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 1: figure out the four humors and all of that, And 698 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: he's going, oh, whoa, no, please can it just all 699 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: please just go back to how it was. But then 700 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: they have a lot of wars and lots of people 701 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,799 Speaker 1: die and lots of witches get burnt, but they get 702 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: the enlightenment and democracy and science and they go to space. 703 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: So I just think we're at the beginning of a 704 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: very turbulent but also very interesting period that may, if 705 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 1: we don't all kill each other, may lead to some 706 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: unexpected and amazing developments. Will my children when they're my 707 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: age still be living under the same system of parliamentary 708 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 1: democracy that I grew up under? Or will their children? Probably? 709 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 1: Not right, I just think nothing lasts forever. Is it 710 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,839 Speaker 1: going to be bad? Probably? Is it also maybe going 711 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 1: to be better in some unforseeable, unfathomable way that I 712 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: can't even imagine. Probably? 713 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 2: All right, we'll take that, Dury and I are all 714 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 2: that's just really great for us. 715 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: So here, this is where you need to join the 716 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: Extropians Scottsdale, Arizona and have yourself chronically frozen so that 717 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: you can then be reawakened in the future Utopila and 718 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: the space aliens if you're out there, like, we need 719 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: some help right here's hoping? Okay, but this was really fun. 720 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: I've enjoyed it a lot. What could be better than 721 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: talking to two old spooks. 722 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 4: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam David's, Jerry O'Shea, John Cipher, 723 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 4: and Jonathan Stern. 724 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: The associate producer is Rachel Harner. 725 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 4: Mission Implausible is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable 726 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 4: Pictures for iHeart Podcasts.