Speaker 1: You are listening and waiting on reparations production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Yo Yo, I'm gonna keep it modest, y'all.
Speaker 1: Something like a miracle, if I'm being honest, You're what side?
Speaker 1: I feeling terrible? Trying to keep it light? Gave you
Speaker 1: something that satirical. Put a whack wrapper right into the
Speaker 1: waltz of Jericho. What are you prepared to do? Hunt
Speaker 1: them like a carrible see you while you starting about
Speaker 1: your front and night here you're waiting our reparations coming
Speaker 1: and we stare fools run wrap circles were about like
Speaker 1: a pair of shoes. Who hey, what's going on? Everybody?
Speaker 1: This is dope knife and you are listening to waiting
Speaker 1: on reparations. I hope everybody's labor day and all that
Speaker 1: was straight. You know, I hope it was more eventful
Speaker 1: than mine. No, you know what I texted. I hope.
Speaker 1: I hope that your labor day was more eventful but
Speaker 1: as enjoyable as mine. How about that I did not
Speaker 1: do a damn thing. I am plugged, and I caught
Speaker 1: up on some os that I hadn't watched. I checked
Speaker 1: out that Boys Joint, the Boys I used to read
Speaker 1: the comic book back in the day, but I checked
Speaker 1: that out, and then I also checked out that show Invincible,
Speaker 1: and that was pretty cool too. So a lot of
Speaker 1: superhero ship for one weekend, which isn't normally my jam
Speaker 1: in the slightest bit, but um, you know, both of
Speaker 1: those shows were pretty cool. I dug him. It was
Speaker 1: a cool way to spend a holiday weekend just veget
Speaker 1: out on the couch with the time to actually just
Speaker 1: relax and do that. So I enjoyed myself once again.
Speaker 1: We are on another week of Mariah being on maternity leave,
Speaker 1: so let's all wish Mariah well and hopefully she'll get back.
Speaker 1: There's so many things that I want to talk about
Speaker 1: with Mariah, especially since I unplugged this weekend and let
Speaker 1: a lot of things get me by. I'm just thinking
Speaker 1: about some of the episode of of stuff that we're
Speaker 1: gonna have to talk about with you guys. But we
Speaker 1: got to talk about all the crazy ship in Texas.
Speaker 1: We get we have to. I mean, that ship is
Speaker 1: looking like Gillyad and ship. They were like, screw it,
Speaker 1: you can't you can't vote, you can't have abortions, you
Speaker 1: can't teach about Martin Luther King in school. No more
Speaker 1: Puppies is illegal Texas now and ship it's crazy, So
Speaker 1: we got to talk about that. Oh, we also have
Speaker 1: to talk about Brazil and the Trump official Jason Miller
Speaker 1: getting detained at the airport after inciting a damn near riot.
Speaker 1: But in in all of in all realness, though they're having,
Speaker 1: you know, some right wing pro Bostonaro protests as of today,
Speaker 1: I don't know what will have been, what we'll be
Speaker 1: going down by the time you guys hear this. And honestly,
Speaker 1: I want to get Mariah's thoughts on the Kanye West
Speaker 1: the album and the Drake certified lover Boy album in
Speaker 1: the two albums in juxtaposition or comparison to each other,
Speaker 1: and just you know, it's a hip hop show and
Speaker 1: those are the two big event things happening in hip
Speaker 1: hop right now that you know. Mariah has been gone,
Speaker 1: so we have you know, I want to discuss that
Speaker 1: with her when she gets back, even though I really
Speaker 1: want to rid talking about Kanye on the show, but
Speaker 1: I gotta do what we gotta do. So um, you know,
Speaker 1: hope when Mariah gets back, we're gonna get into those
Speaker 1: sort of things. But today we have another Dope episode
Speaker 1: for you, and Mariah is going to be with us
Speaker 1: by way of an interview. She's gonna be talking with
Speaker 1: Dr Mark Katz, who's a professor at the University of
Speaker 1: North Carolina and the founder of the State Department program
Speaker 1: and Next Level. I would get all into that, but
Speaker 1: they're going to cover it all in the interview and
Speaker 1: more so, you guys stay tuned. We're gonna be right
Speaker 1: back with that after the jump. So today I'm joined
Speaker 1: by Professor Mark Cat's author Build the Power of Hip
Speaker 1: Hop Diplomacy in an Divided World, based on his experience
Speaker 1: as as founding director of Next Level US State Department Fund,
Speaker 1: a program that sends US hip hop artists abroad a
Speaker 1: full foster cultural exchange, conflict transformation, and entrepreneurship. Professor Cats
Speaker 1: also teaches courses on music and Technology, popular music, and
Speaker 1: cultural diplomacy at the University of North Carolina. Dr Kats,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here today. How are you.
Speaker 1: I'm good and thanks for inviting me. I'm really happy
Speaker 1: to be talking with you. Sweet me too. Um. To
Speaker 1: start out, I'm really curious how one just ends up
Speaker 1: in the business of hip hop diplomacy. Given your background
Speaker 1: in teaching music and technology. So how did this sort
Speaker 1: of unfold for you? Well, it's like a lot of things.
Speaker 1: It's not a direct path and I didn't set out
Speaker 1: to do this, but I had been doing research on
Speaker 1: hip hop for years. I had written a book about deejaying. UM,
Speaker 1: I studied dejaying. I've taught classes with hip hop artists
Speaker 1: and by the way, I consider myself more of a
Speaker 1: hip hop scholar than practitioner. UM. I do a little deejaying,
Speaker 1: but I came at this as a scholar and teacher.
Speaker 1: And I have to give credit to UM to a
Speaker 1: great musician, rapper and singer and activist and politician named
Speaker 1: Pierce Freelon who told me about this opportunity from the
Speaker 1: State Department. He he found the call for proposals for
Speaker 1: a project of that came to be known as Next Level.
Speaker 1: That didn't wasn't called that at the time, but he said, Hey, Mark,
Speaker 1: there's this U saying opportunity. UM, we should go for it.
Speaker 1: And I had been working with him. I was a
Speaker 1: chair of the music department at the University of North
Speaker 1: Carolina at Chapel Hill, and I had hired him to
Speaker 1: UM to teach a or co teach a beat making class.
Speaker 1: And he saw this opportunity said, you know, this looks
Speaker 1: a lot like the kinds of things that were already
Speaker 1: doing and UM in terms of working with the hip
Speaker 1: hop community and connecting students with practitioners and UH. And
Speaker 1: he said, this just looks like an amazing opportunity. So
Speaker 1: I thought, okay, you know, I'll apply for it. It
Speaker 1: was this massive application that that I had to do
Speaker 1: in a couple of weeks, but because I didn't learn
Speaker 1: about it until, you know, a few weeks before the deadline,
Speaker 1: and amazingly it came through and I had to figure
Speaker 1: out how to create a hip hop diplomacy program. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so it kind of built somewhat off of or
Speaker 1: you had experience already in working internationally. I think he
Speaker 1: worked at a youth center in the Democratic Republic of Congo.
Speaker 1: Is that correct? Well, yes, but of course specifically UM,
Speaker 1: Pierce Freelan and a another artist, a producer named Apple
Speaker 1: Juice Kid went there, and Uh, I had first taught
Speaker 1: this beat making class with UH with Apple Juice, and
Speaker 1: then he started working with UM with Pierce, and then
Speaker 1: I heard about this opportunity from a colleague to do
Speaker 1: some work in Congo, and we were able to raise
Speaker 1: money to send them to Congo. I actually went later,
Speaker 1: so but that led to UM a big series of
Speaker 1: two week workshops around the world called beat Making Lab
Speaker 1: col Yeah, so was did you find there to be
Speaker 1: a sea learning here? We're trying to build out the
Speaker 1: program for a lot of different cultural national contexts around
Speaker 1: the world as a part of next level or what
Speaker 1: sorts of experiences were transferable from those beat Making workshops
Speaker 1: into actually working with the State Department. But I would
Speaker 1: say there was both a steep learning curve and a
Speaker 1: lot that we were able to transfer UM because the
Speaker 1: steep learning curve part was where things that were very
Speaker 1: specific to working in diplomacy and with State Department. Uh.
Speaker 1: For one thing in government, there are millions of acronyms
Speaker 1: that you know, don't you know, you just have to
Speaker 1: learn what they are, and no one tells you. They
Speaker 1: just speak in acronyms, and then you have to figure
Speaker 1: it out UM, and then they're just it's actually just
Speaker 1: a culture unto itself, the world of bureaucuracy and diplomacy.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of a lot of learning about
Speaker 1: what the what practices are, what the structures are and
Speaker 1: all that. Um, so that was that was a bit steep.
Speaker 1: But but I also knew my way or around bureaucracies
Speaker 1: having been a chair and being a chair and a
Speaker 1: music department at a big university, So I got that part.
Speaker 1: But the but the transferable, transferable skills, we're really just
Speaker 1: the concept of building. And my book is called build
Speaker 1: and that's the Yeah, So it was it was the
Speaker 1: it's it's a term that I had heard a lot,
Speaker 1: but then after hearing it for a while, I realized, actually,
Speaker 1: this is a this is a central concept of central
Speaker 1: kind of guiding concept and value in the work that
Speaker 1: I'm doing, which is not not so much teaching, not
Speaker 1: so much bestowing knowledge on others or uh, you know,
Speaker 1: dropping science, but it's working together and it's it's creating
Speaker 1: something together that you can do alone. And I would
Speaker 1: say that was probably the the most important concept or
Speaker 1: world view that that I, uh, that I learned from
Speaker 1: hip hop. And I credit hip hop teaching me that
Speaker 1: because I've been a teacher for many years and the
Speaker 1: model is, you know, the teacher has all the information
Speaker 1: and gives it to the students and and I can't
Speaker 1: say I was one of those types that just stood
Speaker 1: up at lectured all the time. I always preferred a
Speaker 1: collaborative approach. But when when I would hear people talking
Speaker 1: about building and saying, um, you know, I don't want
Speaker 1: these Americans coming into Zimbabwe and teaching us hip hop,
Speaker 1: I want to build with them, that really clarified for
Speaker 1: me what hip hop diplomacy is about. It's about Americans,
Speaker 1: U S citizens building collaboratively with hip hop artists around
Speaker 1: the world. Yeah, and so I was curious if this
Speaker 1: concept of building that is very central to hip hop, y'all,
Speaker 1: let's link, let's build, let's lab Um if there's like
Speaker 1: a if there's a an analog, it's not there to
Speaker 1: be an analog in other cultural context where you all
Speaker 1: are working or they have the similar ethos of like, yo,
Speaker 1: let's link, let's let's build, you know, and and uh yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean there are concepts like that in a lot
Speaker 1: of cultures. But the interesting thing is that people use
Speaker 1: the specific English word built really yeah, and um, so
Speaker 1: it is uh you know that's the word that they
Speaker 1: used in zif Bobwe That's a word I heard in
Speaker 1: um Man marked word. I mean I've heard it all
Speaker 1: over the world and um, and it's funny just on that,
Speaker 1: on that point about hip hop slang or language. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I would say, like, what do you call
Speaker 1: an argument you know that that people in hip hop have,
Speaker 1: and they said, well, it's a beef, you know, like
Speaker 1: they would use the word, the English word beef, even
Speaker 1: though it was you know, it was not their language.
Speaker 1: So um. It was always surprising to me how the
Speaker 1: language and ethos of hip hop has spread around the world.
Speaker 1: But I will say it's not like it was. It's
Speaker 1: not a kind of colonizing or purialistic spread. It's more
Speaker 1: like concepts that are native hip hop connected with concepts
Speaker 1: that were native in other countries and just found a connection.
Speaker 1: So um. One thing that was that I always felt
Speaker 1: going to other countries, I could be in a place
Speaker 1: and most of the time I was in a place
Speaker 1: I've never been before, was that the connection between the
Speaker 1: artists coming from the US and the artists in the
Speaker 1: country we visited was more like not a diplomatic delegation
Speaker 1: of country of you know, men in suits and meeting
Speaker 1: each other for the first time, but more like a
Speaker 1: family reunion where you meet cousins for the first time.
Speaker 1: You you've never met them but their family, so there's
Speaker 1: an automatic kind of connection. That's how it felt to me. Awesome,
Speaker 1: it sounds amazing. Um, but you did mention, um imperialism,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to ask some about you know, artists,
Speaker 1: particularly you know within hip hop. There it's a very
Speaker 1: anti authoritarian stands. Oftentimes there's you know, critique of the government.
Speaker 1: And said, so, um uh, some artists had some qualms
Speaker 1: or you know, dealt internally with some questions about how
Speaker 1: he felt it's about going abroad and you know, working
Speaker 1: with the State Department. So, um, could you talk some
Speaker 1: about how artists grappled with their distrust of the US
Speaker 1: government or their embraced of the opportunity of travel, and
Speaker 1: how those questions of you know, being a part of
Speaker 1: of the state apparatus in a certain way was dealt
Speaker 1: with by various people you worked with. Well, it's a
Speaker 1: good question, and it's a question I basically asked every
Speaker 1: single person, every hip hop artist that I worked with,
Speaker 1: because I was I was curious about it, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to know what would make them feel comfortable with
Speaker 1: the idea of working with the government and I got
Speaker 1: a lot of different answers, but but basically when it
Speaker 1: comes down to is the idea of uh agency and autonomy?
Speaker 1: Could the artists honor or could the project honor the
Speaker 1: agency of the individual artists and let them act as
Speaker 1: as the artists they want to be? Did they have
Speaker 1: the autonomy to say what they want to to build
Speaker 1: in the way they want? And if the answer is yes,
Speaker 1: then okay, I can. I can work with these people
Speaker 1: because they're allowing me to be the person I am,
Speaker 1: the artist I am, and they're paying me, and um,
Speaker 1: you know, there's also a sense of this is the
Speaker 1: real world, old meaning that I've come across, and it's
Speaker 1: I have to say, it's usually other academics who will
Speaker 1: kind of uh, you know, sniff at this and say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: so you're just turning these poor hip hop artists into imperialists.
Speaker 1: And you know my thought as well, First of all,
Speaker 1: I don't have that kind of power to turn hip
Speaker 1: hop artists like they do what they want. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like, don't don't give me the credit which I
Speaker 1: don't want of being able to turn these incredibly strong
Speaker 1: willed artists into puppets of the U S. Government. But
Speaker 1: then there's also the kind of the blinders that those
Speaker 1: of us and I include myself, who who enjoy a
Speaker 1: certain privilege in life to be able to criticize those
Speaker 1: who have to make hard decisions about who to work with,
Speaker 1: about where to take money, um, about what opportunity needs
Speaker 1: to take. And I spent a lot of time talking
Speaker 1: with hip hop artists and just listening, and I remember
Speaker 1: one conversation where where a group and these were all
Speaker 1: men who were talking about and they were all from
Speaker 1: different cities in the US. And what they said is,
Speaker 1: and they all agreed with each other, um, that it
Speaker 1: wasn't a question of whether they were going to join
Speaker 1: a gang, who is which gang what they joined, They
Speaker 1: simply did not have the option not to be in
Speaker 1: that life. But from a certain vantage point, or a
Speaker 1: certain privilege vantage point, you could say, well, you always
Speaker 1: have a choice, and um, and my criticize people for
Speaker 1: making these choices. And that's what I learned is that's
Speaker 1: not the real world for a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of artists. UM. And of course there are there are
Speaker 1: people and fearing degrees of privilege within I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to uh to paint with a really broad brush. But
Speaker 1: but the reality is if if the government is coming
Speaker 1: to you and saying we're going to pay you, and
Speaker 1: we're going to pay you money that that you might
Speaker 1: not be able to make otherwise, and you're going to
Speaker 1: get to travel as an artist, it doesn't make a
Speaker 1: whole lot of sense for people to turn that down
Speaker 1: just without even thinking about it. So um, so I
Speaker 1: would say, you know, the there's a lot of sophisticated
Speaker 1: thinking that goes into this. And one thing I always
Speaker 1: appreciated was that that no one went in thinking that
Speaker 1: there wasn't the possibility of being compromised or being used.
Speaker 1: It was just like, I'm going in with my eyes
Speaker 1: wide open and I'm going to I'm going to be
Speaker 1: careful and I'm going to try to be the artist
Speaker 1: I want to be. But I do know that there's
Speaker 1: a possibility of uh, compromise or exploitation. But the fact
Speaker 1: is that's that's life really, that's you know, that's not
Speaker 1: different from from deciding whether to take a job, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: do a gig for Sprite or for you know, Nike,
Speaker 1: you know, or for a school or for a you know,
Speaker 1: an n g O or university. So I mean The
Speaker 1: thing is to be clear, I'm not trying to say
Speaker 1: that the government, the US government doesn't have a very
Speaker 1: specific history of exploitation. It does. And one of the
Speaker 1: things that I always um that I have tried to
Speaker 1: do is to educate myself about that history. So I
Speaker 1: actually can can talk about any number of times that
Speaker 1: the US government has overthrown other countries have as you know,
Speaker 1: I can tell you about the coup's in you know,
Speaker 1: Guatemala or Iran, or you know, assassinations in in congo
Speaker 1: Um and all that. So I don't pretend that this
Speaker 1: is not part of our history. But one thing that
Speaker 1: I appreciate about the artists I work with is they say, look,
Speaker 1: if the government should be hiring me, you know, rather
Speaker 1: than than doing all the stuff that that I criticize
Speaker 1: them for. Finally they're doing something good with the money
Speaker 1: and hiring me as an artist. So there are a
Speaker 1: lot of you know, there's a lot more to say
Speaker 1: about that, but it's it's nuanced, and it's something that I,
Speaker 1: you know, would really want people who are not in,
Speaker 1: who are looking in from the outside to understand that
Speaker 1: these are very sophisticated thinkers who are dealing with with
Speaker 1: a world that does not allow them to just stand
Speaker 1: on the sidelines. Yeah, and then the book you talk
Speaker 1: a lot about like subversive complicity, like people who just
Speaker 1: like they come in, they represent where they from, what
Speaker 1: they about, what their politics are. So I wonder the
Speaker 1: flip side, what then was the State Department's handling of
Speaker 1: like the artist just kind of being who they are,
Speaker 1: while also you know, being tasked with supposedly representing the
Speaker 1: US government in these different contexts. Well, it's tricky for
Speaker 1: them because you know, we've had artists who will just
Speaker 1: say I am I'm an anti imperialist in the US
Speaker 1: is an imperialist country. So um, I mean most of
Speaker 1: the time, the reality is that we don't have people
Speaker 1: just following us around all the time watching everything. So um.
Speaker 1: The reality is that that if you know, we go
Speaker 1: to a you know, a certain country and one of
Speaker 1: the artists wants to connect with people and and you know,
Speaker 1: have tea and talk about you know, their anti imperialist views,
Speaker 1: that's that happens, um and um. And I actually don't
Speaker 1: think that the people at the embassy would try to
Speaker 1: stop that. Um. They you know, there is a certain
Speaker 1: amount of discomfort, but I think they just have to
Speaker 1: deal with it. And there was there is an occasion
Speaker 1: I think I do mention this in the book where
Speaker 1: where one of our artists, Pinky Ring, very outspoken, amazing
Speaker 1: m C from Chicago, UM had a song called Revolution Revolution,
Speaker 1: and you know, she just just you know, just laid
Speaker 1: into police and Trump government. And she actually performed this
Speaker 1: at the ambassador's residence in Cambodia, you know this, and
Speaker 1: UM and the people from the embassy afterwards kind of
Speaker 1: gently came up and said, you know, maybe don't perform
Speaker 1: that at our public show, you know, tomorrow, And the
Speaker 1: response of the team was no, We're going to perform
Speaker 1: it and I and you know, uh, and the world
Speaker 1: didn't end, you know, it was actually it was fine.
Speaker 1: You had American artists criticizing their own government and UM,
Speaker 1: I know, you know, I'm sure that it made people
Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable at the embassy. But on the other hand,
Speaker 1: if you want proof that that these aren't puppets, and
Speaker 1: you know, these hip hop artists are speaking their mind, well,
Speaker 1: having them criticize the boss, you know, the president at
Speaker 1: that time was Trump, UM, should be you know, pretty
Speaker 1: clear proof that the US allows its citizens to criticize
Speaker 1: its governor. Yeah, and so in a way I think
Speaker 1: it's used to be around in the books someone like
Speaker 1: actually building more with the people who in these contexts
Speaker 1: that may be critical of US government as well. But
Speaker 1: it's like, yo, I actually feel you on that. I'm
Speaker 1: on the same day. But yeah, we've talked about a
Speaker 1: couple of different forms of internal conflict or conflict with like, yeah,
Speaker 1: the messaging of different artists versus like the goals of
Speaker 1: the State Department. And in chapter two you say and
Speaker 1: seeking to transform conflict, we were also according it and
Speaker 1: it makes me think of, um, I don't know, I
Speaker 1: remember that Dave Chappelle sketch like keeping a reel goes
Speaker 1: wrong life? What if they get into these like kind
Speaker 1: of comical uh conflicts because you know, they're just representing
Speaker 1: and then it it goes poorly. So I wanted to
Speaker 1: unpack what that means a little bit according conflict in
Speaker 1: these contacts as well as if you can speak something
Speaker 1: about the idea of conflict transformation. Yeah, thanks, So I'll
Speaker 1: start with conflict transformation. So that's a less common term
Speaker 1: than conflict resolution, but the idea is that instead of
Speaker 1: resolving beef between two groups. It's a more general term
Speaker 1: for transforming conflict, meaning harnessing conflict which is in our
Speaker 1: lives and is in escapable. We we actually recognize that
Speaker 1: conflict is part of life and it's not something that
Speaker 1: can be avoided. So really the question is not how
Speaker 1: do you avoid conflict, but how do you transform that
Speaker 1: energy into something positive? So um and art is a
Speaker 1: great way to do that. I mean we anyone who
Speaker 1: knows the history of hip hop knows that it transforms
Speaker 1: conflict into rhyme and to dance and de beats, into
Speaker 1: graffiti into writing so on. So that's the that's the
Speaker 1: idea behind conflict transformation. That we're not going in there
Speaker 1: trying to break up fights because you have to know
Speaker 1: the history. Uh, you have to know the history much
Speaker 1: more than than we can and the culture in order
Speaker 1: to mediate a conflict. And we're not sent in as mediators.
Speaker 1: And that's that gets the idea of courting conflict because
Speaker 1: if you think about it, Let's say, you know, you
Speaker 1: see two people arguing, um, just on the street, and
Speaker 1: you go in and you say, hey, you know, can't
Speaker 1: you to get along? Like who are you? Yeah? Get
Speaker 1: out of you? Um? Yeah, like who, Like, what the
Speaker 1: hell do you know? And um and you know, and
Speaker 1: that's just like someone in your own culture. It could
Speaker 1: be someone in your own family. Now, imagine going to
Speaker 1: another country, representing the U. S. Government and trying to
Speaker 1: step in the middle of some could be generations or
Speaker 1: centuries long conflict and saying, um, Okay, here's what you're
Speaker 1: gonna do. I mean, it's he's like, no, man, you
Speaker 1: don't know what's been going on out here. We're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I could. He's entered exactly. So it's it. Actually to
Speaker 1: do that is to show the worst kind of ugly
Speaker 1: American uh you know, caricature, which is that we're arrogant,
Speaker 1: that we we go into into situations that we without
Speaker 1: knowing what we're doing. So so we try to avoid that.
Speaker 1: We try to go in asking questions, We um, we listen,
Speaker 1: we show respect, We try to learn as much as
Speaker 1: we can, and we try to respect people by not
Speaker 1: trying by trying, by avoiding trying to solve their problems
Speaker 1: for them, but instead using hip hop as a means
Speaker 1: to develop tools that they could use to express themselves.
Speaker 1: And um, and so even then, I should say, we
Speaker 1: could still be creating problems that we don't know about.
Speaker 1: I mean, our our mere existence can create problems because
Speaker 1: I've seen this happen. We come in and I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty easy to understand when you step back
Speaker 1: and think about it. But let's say somebody from another
Speaker 1: country comes in and into your community and says, I'm
Speaker 1: going to teach your students how to do what you
Speaker 1: teach them, and you know, people might say, well, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure that I want you doing that, and um,
Speaker 1: and that is that has happened even before we say anything.
Speaker 1: Or mere existence can create conflicts. So we have to
Speaker 1: go in and I've I've seen this over and over
Speaker 1: again and kind of show our you know, you know,
Speaker 1: our our intent are, you know, demonstrate our respect. So
Speaker 1: you know, I've had conversations where people kind of stand
Speaker 1: there with their arms crossed, kind of staring at us,
Speaker 1: and and over the course of a couple of hours
Speaker 1: will kind of relax like, Okay, we get it, we
Speaker 1: understand why you're here. So one Um, that's one reason
Speaker 1: why we always take an advanced trip before the residency.
Speaker 1: So a couple of people, the manager of the residency
Speaker 1: and someone else, sometimes just the manager, but we'll go
Speaker 1: and meet with a bunch of people before anything else
Speaker 1: happens and just get to know them. So that paves
Speaker 1: the way for a for a smoother residency. And that
Speaker 1: is really crucial because just showing up and on day
Speaker 1: one and saying, you know, snapping your fingers and saying, Okay,
Speaker 1: here's how it's going to be done is not the
Speaker 1: way to create mutual respect and understanding mutual understandings the
Speaker 1: language that State Department uses, and it's not the way
Speaker 1: to build with people. He talked a little bit about
Speaker 1: some into like barriers you would encounter upon during new contexts,
Speaker 1: but then all the ways of transcending them. Were there
Speaker 1: any limitations to hip hop thephalmacy that he felt like,
Speaker 1: well this is just the line for this work. Well there, yes,
Speaker 1: I mean there are always cultural differences that you know,
Speaker 1: but it comes down to it, uh, there's it's it's
Speaker 1: better just to be respectful and not go there. So
Speaker 1: for example, um, you know, we went to Jordan's and
Speaker 1: you know, um, Israel is just saying the word Israel,
Speaker 1: the name Israel and Jordan's. It's almost like a fighting word.
Speaker 1: Even if you're not saying thing positive about Israel, you know,
Speaker 1: and and um, I learned that, you know, I learned
Speaker 1: that the hard way. And I didn't say anything positive
Speaker 1: about Israel. I just said I made like some parenthetical
Speaker 1: remark about how, um, you know Israel was a neighbor
Speaker 1: and and you know, I was talking about conflict. Idn't
Speaker 1: see you know, you have conflict with neighbors, And just
Speaker 1: saying that name was enough to get people really riled
Speaker 1: up and upset with me. And I was like, well,
Speaker 1: well I didn't you know. I was like, okay, I
Speaker 1: just I should not have gone there. And there's there's
Speaker 1: nothing that that you know, good intentions would have helped
Speaker 1: in that situation. So what I learned sometimes you just
Speaker 1: have to shut up and and really, um, I mean
Speaker 1: this is a kind of truism, but it reminds me
Speaker 1: you've got to stick to what you know and um,
Speaker 1: and if you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk.
Speaker 1: And sometimes and that actually is hard to do. And
Speaker 1: I will say it's hard for Americans to do because
Speaker 1: we're told that we're exceptional, that we're the greatest country
Speaker 1: in the world, and we have to actually push against
Speaker 1: that kind of indoctrination that we've experienced and and come
Speaker 1: in with humility and realize that there's a lot we
Speaker 1: don't know. I want thank you again so much for
Speaker 1: taking the time out the chat with me. The book
Speaker 1: is called Build the Power of Hip Hop Diplomacy in
Speaker 1: a Divide the World tongues of fascinating stories of hip
Speaker 1: hop artists in different countries, different hijinks, and different lessons
Speaker 1: um about the power of hip optopomacy as well as
Speaker 1: a limitation. So I recommend y'all check it out and
Speaker 1: Dr Kat states again to your time. Well, thank you.
Speaker 1: This has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate
Speaker 1: that opportunity to talk with you. All right, and that
Speaker 1: was the interview, you know, listening to stuff like that,
Speaker 1: I always love it because it makes me feel like
Speaker 1: a certain amount of pride in being a hip hopper
Speaker 1: or hip hop head or hip hop artists and just
Speaker 1: involved with like hip hop culture. Because it's just like
Speaker 1: you know, you can literally use for anything, you know,
Speaker 1: we've mentioned before, using it as a tool of education,
Speaker 1: using it in politics. It's just it's beautiful. It beautiful ship.
Speaker 1: But that's what we got for this week. Next week,
Speaker 1: I don't want to give any false advertisements. But I
Speaker 1: think Mariah maybe back next week. If she isn't, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be like the last week that she's gone. Pretty sure.
Speaker 1: But I will see you guys next week. And I'm
Speaker 1: gonna close this off like we closed off every episode
Speaker 1: with a little bit of rapping and yeah, you know what,
Speaker 1: we don't even gotta get a new beat, Yo and
Speaker 1: Joe just turn the ship up. Let me let me
Speaker 1: go in. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah, now hip hop
Speaker 1: hip hip it to the Dope Knife popping it, don't
Speaker 1: stop the rocking to the rom stop dropping, and I'm
Speaker 1: called by the copsit and they lock me till I'm
Speaker 1: back on the street. Now. Thank y'all for tuning into
Speaker 1: Waiting to Reparate. Love y'all so much, hope that we
Speaker 1: never separate. Give a like a comment, maybe an extra play.
Speaker 1: That was time that I'd beat y'all. Y'all have the
Speaker 1: best to day. Hey, all right, you are rocking with
Speaker 1: Dope Knife the Rap Wizard, and you are listening to
Speaker 1: Waiting on Reparations. See y'all next week. Winning on Reparations
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