WEBVTT - Worldwide Always 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:05.280 You are listening and waiting on reparations production of I 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:09.640 Heart Radio. Yo Yo, I'm gonna keep it modest, y'all. 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.039 Something like a miracle, if I'm being honest, You're what side? 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.000 I feeling terrible? Trying to keep it light? Gave you 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:16.360 something that satirical. Put a whack wrapper right into the 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:18.440 waltz of Jericho. What are you prepared to do? Hunt 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:20.400 them like a carrible see you while you starting about 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:22.840 your front and night here you're waiting our reparations coming 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:25.200 and we stare fools run wrap circles were about like 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:29.040 a pair of shoes. Who hey, what's going on? Everybody? 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:32.320 This is dope knife and you are listening to waiting 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:36.559 on reparations. I hope everybody's labor day and all that 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.080 was straight. You know, I hope it was more eventful 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.880 than mine. No, you know what I texted. I hope. 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:49.839 I hope that your labor day was more eventful but 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:54.000 as enjoyable as mine. How about that I did not 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:59.120 do a damn thing. I am plugged, and I caught 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:01.600 up on some os that I hadn't watched. I checked 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:06.280 out that Boys Joint, the Boys I used to read 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:08.640 the comic book back in the day, but I checked 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:12.680 that out, and then I also checked out that show Invincible, 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.520 and that was pretty cool too. So a lot of 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:21.320 superhero ship for one weekend, which isn't normally my jam 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.320 in the slightest bit, but um, you know, both of 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:27.520 those shows were pretty cool. I dug him. It was 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.160 a cool way to spend a holiday weekend just veget 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:34.240 out on the couch with the time to actually just 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.679 relax and do that. So I enjoyed myself once again. 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.520 We are on another week of Mariah being on maternity leave, 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.040 so let's all wish Mariah well and hopefully she'll get back. 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:51.120 There's so many things that I want to talk about 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:56.560 with Mariah, especially since I unplugged this weekend and let 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:58.920 a lot of things get me by. I'm just thinking 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:01.600 about some of the episode of of stuff that we're 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:03.160 gonna have to talk about with you guys. But we 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:05.320 got to talk about all the crazy ship in Texas. 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.640 We get we have to. I mean, that ship is 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:13.240 looking like Gillyad and ship. They were like, screw it, 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:17.080 you can't you can't vote, you can't have abortions, you 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:19.519 can't teach about Martin Luther King in school. No more 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:24.200 Puppies is illegal Texas now and ship it's crazy, So 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:26.600 we got to talk about that. Oh, we also have 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:31.799 to talk about Brazil and the Trump official Jason Miller 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:37.280 getting detained at the airport after inciting a damn near riot. 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:43.040 But in in all of in all realness, though they're having, 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:49.040 you know, some right wing pro Bostonaro protests as of today, 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:51.600 I don't know what will have been, what we'll be 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.679 going down by the time you guys hear this. And honestly, 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:59.720 I want to get Mariah's thoughts on the Kanye West 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.840 the album and the Drake certified lover Boy album in 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:09.080 the two albums in juxtaposition or comparison to each other, 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:11.080 and just you know, it's a hip hop show and 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.600 those are the two big event things happening in hip 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:17.680 hop right now that you know. Mariah has been gone, 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:19.680 so we have you know, I want to discuss that 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:21.640 with her when she gets back, even though I really 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:27.320 want to rid talking about Kanye on the show, but 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.160 I gotta do what we gotta do. So um, you know, 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:32.280 hope when Mariah gets back, we're gonna get into those 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:36.400 sort of things. But today we have another Dope episode 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:38.920 for you, and Mariah is going to be with us 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.960 by way of an interview. She's gonna be talking with 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:45.000 Dr Mark Katz, who's a professor at the University of 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:49.040 North Carolina and the founder of the State Department program 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:51.680 and Next Level. I would get all into that, but 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:53.720 they're going to cover it all in the interview and 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:56.240 more so, you guys stay tuned. We're gonna be right 0:03:56.280 --> 0:04:06.560 back with that after the jump. So today I'm joined 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.280 by Professor Mark Cat's author Build the Power of Hip 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.280 Hop Diplomacy in an Divided World, based on his experience 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:15.280 as as founding director of Next Level US State Department Fund, 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:18.040 a program that sends US hip hop artists abroad a 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:23.159 full foster cultural exchange, conflict transformation, and entrepreneurship. Professor Cats 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:26.200 also teaches courses on music and Technology, popular music, and 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:30.880 cultural diplomacy at the University of North Carolina. Dr Kats, 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:32.919 thank you so much for being here today. How are you. 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.680 I'm good and thanks for inviting me. I'm really happy 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:41.320 to be talking with you. Sweet me too. Um. To 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:43.680 start out, I'm really curious how one just ends up 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:47.080 in the business of hip hop diplomacy. Given your background 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.120 in teaching music and technology. So how did this sort 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:54.320 of unfold for you? Well, it's like a lot of things. 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.800 It's not a direct path and I didn't set out 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:02.960 to do this, but I had been doing research on 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:09.080 hip hop for years. I had written a book about deejaying. UM, 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:15.480 I studied dejaying. I've taught classes with hip hop artists 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:18.080 and by the way, I consider myself more of a 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:23.200 hip hop scholar than practitioner. UM. I do a little deejaying, 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.880 but I came at this as a scholar and teacher. 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:32.760 And I have to give credit to UM to a 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:40.360 great musician, rapper and singer and activist and politician named 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:45.520 Pierce Freelon who told me about this opportunity from the 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:51.000 State Department. He he found the call for proposals for 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:55.760 a project of that came to be known as Next Level. 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:59.160 That didn't wasn't called that at the time, but he said, Hey, Mark, 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:03.520 there's this U saying opportunity. UM, we should go for it. 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:05.680 And I had been working with him. I was a 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:09.080 chair of the music department at the University of North 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.240 Carolina at Chapel Hill, and I had hired him to 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:17.279 UM to teach a or co teach a beat making class. 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:21.839 And he saw this opportunity said, you know, this looks 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:24.440 a lot like the kinds of things that were already 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:30.719 doing and UM in terms of working with the hip 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:36.039 hop community and connecting students with practitioners and UH. And 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.240 he said, this just looks like an amazing opportunity. So 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:41.680 I thought, okay, you know, I'll apply for it. It 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:46.719 was this massive application that that I had to do 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:48.800 in a couple of weeks, but because I didn't learn 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.600 about it until, you know, a few weeks before the deadline, 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:56.600 and amazingly it came through and I had to figure 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:00.400 out how to create a hip hop diplomacy program. Yeah, 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:02.960 and so it kind of built somewhat off of or 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:07.040 you had experience already in working internationally. I think he 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:09.960 worked at a youth center in the Democratic Republic of Congo. 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:14.280 Is that correct? Well, yes, but of course specifically UM, 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:20.880 Pierce Freelan and a another artist, a producer named Apple 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:26.760 Juice Kid went there, and Uh, I had first taught 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:31.720 this beat making class with UH with Apple Juice, and 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:35.600 then he started working with UM with Pierce, and then 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:38.600 I heard about this opportunity from a colleague to do 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:42.520 some work in Congo, and we were able to raise 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.200 money to send them to Congo. I actually went later, 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:51.000 so but that led to UM a big series of 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.400 two week workshops around the world called beat Making Lab 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:58.760 col Yeah, so was did you find there to be 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.120 a sea learning here? We're trying to build out the 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.520 program for a lot of different cultural national contexts around 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:06.800 the world as a part of next level or what 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:10.200 sorts of experiences were transferable from those beat Making workshops 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.240 into actually working with the State Department. But I would 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:16.080 say there was both a steep learning curve and a 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:19.160 lot that we were able to transfer UM because the 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:23.520 steep learning curve part was where things that were very 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:28.040 specific to working in diplomacy and with State Department. Uh. 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:32.200 For one thing in government, there are millions of acronyms 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:34.400 that you know, don't you know, you just have to 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:36.600 learn what they are, and no one tells you. They 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.080 just speak in acronyms, and then you have to figure 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:42.320 it out UM, and then they're just it's actually just 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:46.960 a culture unto itself, the world of bureaucuracy and diplomacy. 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:49.840 So there's a lot of a lot of learning about 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:53.480 what the what practices are, what the structures are and 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:57.360 all that. Um, so that was that was a bit steep. 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:01.439 But but I also knew my way or around bureaucracies 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:05.120 having been a chair and being a chair and a 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:09.079 music department at a big university, So I got that part. 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:16.320 But the but the transferable, transferable skills, we're really just 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:20.360 the concept of building. And my book is called build 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:26.000 and that's the Yeah, So it was it was the 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:28.240 it's it's a term that I had heard a lot, 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:32.640 but then after hearing it for a while, I realized, actually, 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:38.000 this is a this is a central concept of central 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.200 kind of guiding concept and value in the work that 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.480 I'm doing, which is not not so much teaching, not 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:50.200 so much bestowing knowledge on others or uh, you know, 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:54.439 dropping science, but it's working together and it's it's creating 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:59.199 something together that you can do alone. And I would 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:05.640 say that was probably the the most important concept or 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:11.160 world view that that I, uh, that I learned from 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:14.280 hip hop. And I credit hip hop teaching me that 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:16.400 because I've been a teacher for many years and the 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:20.800 model is, you know, the teacher has all the information 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.720 and gives it to the students and and I can't 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:25.640 say I was one of those types that just stood 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.760 up at lectured all the time. I always preferred a 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:33.640 collaborative approach. But when when I would hear people talking 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:37.600 about building and saying, um, you know, I don't want 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.320 these Americans coming into Zimbabwe and teaching us hip hop, 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.760 I want to build with them, that really clarified for 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:49.160 me what hip hop diplomacy is about. It's about Americans, 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:54.560 U S citizens building collaboratively with hip hop artists around 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:58.040 the world. Yeah, and so I was curious if this 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.880 concept of building that is very central to hip hop, y'all, 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.240 let's link, let's build, let's lab Um if there's like 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:06.440 a if there's a an analog, it's not there to 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:08.760 be an analog in other cultural context where you all 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:10.959 are working or they have the similar ethos of like, yo, 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:16.360 let's link, let's let's build, you know, and and uh yeah, well, 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:18.839 I mean there are concepts like that in a lot 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:21.400 of cultures. But the interesting thing is that people use 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:26.920 the specific English word built really yeah, and um, so 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:30.640 it is uh you know that's the word that they 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.800 used in zif Bobwe That's a word I heard in 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:38.920 um Man marked word. I mean I've heard it all 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.320 over the world and um, and it's funny just on that, 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:48.360 on that point about hip hop slang or language. Um, 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:50.880 you know, I would say, like, what do you call 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.319 an argument you know that that people in hip hop have, 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:56.600 and they said, well, it's a beef, you know, like 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:58.760 they would use the word, the English word beef, even 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:01.400 though it was you know, it was not their language. 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:08.679 So um. It was always surprising to me how the 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.880 language and ethos of hip hop has spread around the world. 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.280 But I will say it's not like it was. It's 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:19.719 not a kind of colonizing or purialistic spread. It's more 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:26.679 like concepts that are native hip hop connected with concepts 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:30.439 that were native in other countries and just found a connection. 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:36.120 So um. One thing that was that I always felt 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.160 going to other countries, I could be in a place 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:39.680 and most of the time I was in a place 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:44.560 I've never been before, was that the connection between the 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:46.760 artists coming from the US and the artists in the 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:52.160 country we visited was more like not a diplomatic delegation 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:56.679 of country of you know, men in suits and meeting 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:58.800 each other for the first time, but more like a 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.600 family reunion where you meet cousins for the first time. 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:05.920 You you've never met them but their family, so there's 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:10.680 an automatic kind of connection. That's how it felt to me. Awesome, 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:15.920 it sounds amazing. Um, but you did mention, um imperialism, 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:20.120 and I wanted to ask some about you know, artists, 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:22.080 particularly you know within hip hop. There it's a very 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:26.480 anti authoritarian stands. Oftentimes there's you know, critique of the government. 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:31.200 And said, so, um uh, some artists had some qualms 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.400 or you know, dealt internally with some questions about how 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.360 he felt it's about going abroad and you know, working 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.760 with the State Department. So, um, could you talk some 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:44.840 about how artists grappled with their distrust of the US 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:47.520 government or their embraced of the opportunity of travel, and 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:50.959 how those questions of you know, being a part of 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:54.920 of the state apparatus in a certain way was dealt 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:58.400 with by various people you worked with. Well, it's a 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:01.679 good question, and it's a question I basically asked every 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:05.240 single person, every hip hop artist that I worked with, 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:07.840 because I was I was curious about it, and I 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:12.360 wanted to know what would make them feel comfortable with 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:15.600 the idea of working with the government and I got 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:19.880 a lot of different answers, but but basically when it 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:24.440 comes down to is the idea of uh agency and autonomy? 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:30.520 Could the artists honor or could the project honor the 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:34.240 agency of the individual artists and let them act as 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:37.680 as the artists they want to be? Did they have 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:43.160 the autonomy to say what they want to to build 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.160 in the way they want? And if the answer is yes, 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.360 then okay, I can. I can work with these people 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:52.240 because they're allowing me to be the person I am, 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:56.760 the artist I am, and they're paying me, and um, 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.440 you know, there's also a sense of this is the 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:04.480 real world, old meaning that I've come across, and it's 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.880 I have to say, it's usually other academics who will 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.760 kind of uh, you know, sniff at this and say, oh, yeah, 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:16.040 so you're just turning these poor hip hop artists into imperialists. 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:18.280 And you know my thought as well, First of all, 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.520 I don't have that kind of power to turn hip 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.480 hop artists like they do what they want. You know. 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:29.040 It's like, don't don't give me the credit which I 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:33.440 don't want of being able to turn these incredibly strong 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:37.640 willed artists into puppets of the U S. Government. But 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:42.160 then there's also the kind of the blinders that those 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:45.280 of us and I include myself, who who enjoy a 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:49.480 certain privilege in life to be able to criticize those 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:55.080 who have to make hard decisions about who to work with, 0:15:55.120 --> 0:16:00.200 about where to take money, um, about what opportunity needs 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.920 to take. And I spent a lot of time talking 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:07.480 with hip hop artists and just listening, and I remember 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:12.880 one conversation where where a group and these were all 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:17.000 men who were talking about and they were all from 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:20.280 different cities in the US. And what they said is, 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:23.560 and they all agreed with each other, um, that it 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:27.520 wasn't a question of whether they were going to join 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:31.520 a gang, who is which gang what they joined, They 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:34.520 simply did not have the option not to be in 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:38.680 that life. But from a certain vantage point, or a 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.600 certain privilege vantage point, you could say, well, you always 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:45.560 have a choice, and um, and my criticize people for 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:49.360 making these choices. And that's what I learned is that's 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:52.480 not the real world for a lot of a lot 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:56.760 of artists. UM. And of course there are there are 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.960 people and fearing degrees of privilege within I'm not trying 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:05.760 to uh to paint with a really broad brush. But 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.840 but the reality is if if the government is coming 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:13.399 to you and saying we're going to pay you, and 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:15.840 we're going to pay you money that that you might 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.119 not be able to make otherwise, and you're going to 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.960 get to travel as an artist, it doesn't make a 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:25.679 whole lot of sense for people to turn that down 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:31.760 just without even thinking about it. So um, so I 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:35.359 would say, you know, the there's a lot of sophisticated 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:37.600 thinking that goes into this. And one thing I always 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:42.160 appreciated was that that no one went in thinking that 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:47.879 there wasn't the possibility of being compromised or being used. 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.639 It was just like, I'm going in with my eyes 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:53.960 wide open and I'm going to I'm going to be 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:57.320 careful and I'm going to try to be the artist 0:17:57.359 --> 0:17:59.080 I want to be. But I do know that there's 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:04.880 a possibility of uh, compromise or exploitation. But the fact 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:09.080 is that's that's life really, that's you know, that's not 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:14.600 different from from deciding whether to take a job, you know, uh, 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.359 do a gig for Sprite or for you know, Nike, 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.959 you know, or for a school or for a you know, 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.480 an n g O or university. So I mean The 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.880 thing is to be clear, I'm not trying to say 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:31.640 that the government, the US government doesn't have a very 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:36.000 specific history of exploitation. It does. And one of the 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:40.480 things that I always um that I have tried to 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:44.520 do is to educate myself about that history. So I 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:48.080 actually can can talk about any number of times that 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:52.959 the US government has overthrown other countries have as you know, 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:55.280 I can tell you about the coup's in you know, 0:18:55.400 --> 0:19:00.880 Guatemala or Iran, or you know, assassinations in in congo 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.280 Um and all that. So I don't pretend that this 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.719 is not part of our history. But one thing that 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.520 I appreciate about the artists I work with is they say, look, 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:15.000 if the government should be hiring me, you know, rather 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.800 than than doing all the stuff that that I criticize 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:21.600 them for. Finally they're doing something good with the money 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:25.320 and hiring me as an artist. So there are a 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:28.160 lot of you know, there's a lot more to say 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:31.119 about that, but it's it's nuanced, and it's something that I, 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:35.159 you know, would really want people who are not in, 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:38.600 who are looking in from the outside to understand that 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:44.640 these are very sophisticated thinkers who are dealing with with 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:50.240 a world that does not allow them to just stand 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:53.719 on the sidelines. Yeah, and then the book you talk 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.119 a lot about like subversive complicity, like people who just 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:58.359 like they come in, they represent where they from, what 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:00.840 they about, what their politics are. So I wonder the 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:03.280 flip side, what then was the State Department's handling of 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:05.200 like the artist just kind of being who they are, 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:10.760 while also you know, being tasked with supposedly representing the 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:13.840 US government in these different contexts. Well, it's tricky for 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:17.439 them because you know, we've had artists who will just 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:21.359 say I am I'm an anti imperialist in the US 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:25.920 is an imperialist country. So um, I mean most of 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:29.800 the time, the reality is that we don't have people 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:34.000 just following us around all the time watching everything. So um. 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:38.000 The reality is that that if you know, we go 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:40.359 to a you know, a certain country and one of 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:43.800 the artists wants to connect with people and and you know, 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:48.399 have tea and talk about you know, their anti imperialist views, 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:53.159 that's that happens, um and um. And I actually don't 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.159 think that the people at the embassy would try to 0:20:56.200 --> 0:21:00.560 stop that. Um. They you know, there is a certain 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:02.760 amount of discomfort, but I think they just have to 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:07.120 deal with it. And there was there is an occasion 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.440 I think I do mention this in the book where 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:13.960 where one of our artists, Pinky Ring, very outspoken, amazing 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:21.800 m C from Chicago, UM had a song called Revolution Revolution, 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:28.280 and you know, she just just you know, just laid 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:34.040 into police and Trump government. And she actually performed this 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:38.320 at the ambassador's residence in Cambodia, you know this, and 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:43.159 UM and the people from the embassy afterwards kind of 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.800 gently came up and said, you know, maybe don't perform 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:50.360 that at our public show, you know, tomorrow, And the 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:53.199 response of the team was no, We're going to perform 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:58.520 it and I and you know, uh, and the world 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:01.920 didn't end, you know, it was actually it was fine. 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:07.639 You had American artists criticizing their own government and UM, 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:09.960 I know, you know, I'm sure that it made people 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:12.600 feel uncomfortable at the embassy. But on the other hand, 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:16.720 if you want proof that that these aren't puppets, and 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:20.360 you know, these hip hop artists are speaking their mind, well, 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:24.520 having them criticize the boss, you know, the president at 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:29.439 that time was Trump, UM, should be you know, pretty 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:32.959 clear proof that the US allows its citizens to criticize 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:36.840 its governor. Yeah, and so in a way I think 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:38.439 it's used to be around in the books someone like 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:42.520 actually building more with the people who in these contexts 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:44.639 that may be critical of US government as well. But 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:47.280 it's like, yo, I actually feel you on that. I'm 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:50.639 on the same day. But yeah, we've talked about a 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:55.240 couple of different forms of internal conflict or conflict with like, yeah, 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:57.879 the messaging of different artists versus like the goals of 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:00.439 the State Department. And in chapter two you say and 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:04.280 seeking to transform conflict, we were also according it and 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:06.040 it makes me think of, um, I don't know, I 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:08.360 remember that Dave Chappelle sketch like keeping a reel goes 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:10.720 wrong life? What if they get into these like kind 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:13.760 of comical uh conflicts because you know, they're just representing 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:16.240 and then it it goes poorly. So I wanted to 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:18.840 unpack what that means a little bit according conflict in 0:23:18.880 --> 0:23:20.960 these contacts as well as if you can speak something 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:24.520 about the idea of conflict transformation. Yeah, thanks, So I'll 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:28.160 start with conflict transformation. So that's a less common term 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:32.400 than conflict resolution, but the idea is that instead of 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:38.040 resolving beef between two groups. It's a more general term 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:44.040 for transforming conflict, meaning harnessing conflict which is in our 0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:48.359 lives and is in escapable. We we actually recognize that 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:50.959 conflict is part of life and it's not something that 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:53.119 can be avoided. So really the question is not how 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:56.159 do you avoid conflict, but how do you transform that 0:23:56.400 --> 0:24:00.800 energy into something positive? So um and art is a 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:03.560 great way to do that. I mean we anyone who 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:07.000 knows the history of hip hop knows that it transforms 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:09.960 conflict into rhyme and to dance and de beats, into 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:13.960 graffiti into writing so on. So that's the that's the 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:16.880 idea behind conflict transformation. That we're not going in there 0:24:16.880 --> 0:24:19.520 trying to break up fights because you have to know 0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:22.400 the history. Uh, you have to know the history much 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:25.440 more than than we can and the culture in order 0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:29.400 to mediate a conflict. And we're not sent in as mediators. 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:33.840 And that's that gets the idea of courting conflict because 0:24:34.880 --> 0:24:37.119 if you think about it, Let's say, you know, you 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:40.399 see two people arguing, um, just on the street, and 0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:42.480 you go in and you say, hey, you know, can't 0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:46.280 you to get along? Like who are you? Yeah? Get 0:24:46.280 --> 0:24:49.960 out of you? Um? Yeah, like who, Like, what the 0:24:49.960 --> 0:24:53.480 hell do you know? And um and you know, and 0:24:53.560 --> 0:24:55.800 that's just like someone in your own culture. It could 0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:58.639 be someone in your own family. Now, imagine going to 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:03.399 another country, representing the U. S. Government and trying to 0:25:03.400 --> 0:25:06.480