1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: You are listening and waiting on reparations production of I 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Yo Yo, I'm gonna keep it modest, y'all. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: Something like a miracle, if I'm being honest, You're what side? 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: I feeling terrible? Trying to keep it light? Gave you 5 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: something that satirical. Put a whack wrapper right into the 6 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: waltz of Jericho. What are you prepared to do? Hunt 7 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: them like a carrible see you while you starting about 8 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: your front and night here you're waiting our reparations coming 9 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: and we stare fools run wrap circles were about like 10 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: a pair of shoes. Who hey, what's going on? Everybody? 11 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: This is dope knife and you are listening to waiting 12 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: on reparations. I hope everybody's labor day and all that 13 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: was straight. You know, I hope it was more eventful 14 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: than mine. No, you know what I texted. I hope. 15 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: I hope that your labor day was more eventful but 16 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: as enjoyable as mine. How about that I did not 17 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: do a damn thing. I am plugged, and I caught 18 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: up on some os that I hadn't watched. I checked 19 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: out that Boys Joint, the Boys I used to read 20 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: the comic book back in the day, but I checked 21 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 1: that out, and then I also checked out that show Invincible, 22 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: and that was pretty cool too. So a lot of 23 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: superhero ship for one weekend, which isn't normally my jam 24 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: in the slightest bit, but um, you know, both of 25 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: those shows were pretty cool. I dug him. It was 26 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: a cool way to spend a holiday weekend just veget 27 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: out on the couch with the time to actually just 28 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: relax and do that. So I enjoyed myself once again. 29 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: We are on another week of Mariah being on maternity leave, 30 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: so let's all wish Mariah well and hopefully she'll get back. 31 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: There's so many things that I want to talk about 32 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: with Mariah, especially since I unplugged this weekend and let 33 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: a lot of things get me by. I'm just thinking 34 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: about some of the episode of of stuff that we're 35 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: gonna have to talk about with you guys. But we 36 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: got to talk about all the crazy ship in Texas. 37 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: We get we have to. I mean, that ship is 38 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: looking like Gillyad and ship. They were like, screw it, 39 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: you can't you can't vote, you can't have abortions, you 40 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 1: can't teach about Martin Luther King in school. No more 41 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: Puppies is illegal Texas now and ship it's crazy, So 42 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: we got to talk about that. Oh, we also have 43 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: to talk about Brazil and the Trump official Jason Miller 44 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: getting detained at the airport after inciting a damn near riot. 45 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: But in in all of in all realness, though they're having, 46 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: you know, some right wing pro Bostonaro protests as of today, 47 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: I don't know what will have been, what we'll be 48 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,679 Speaker 1: going down by the time you guys hear this. And honestly, 49 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: I want to get Mariah's thoughts on the Kanye West 50 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: the album and the Drake certified lover Boy album in 51 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: the two albums in juxtaposition or comparison to each other, 52 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: and just you know, it's a hip hop show and 53 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: those are the two big event things happening in hip 54 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: hop right now that you know. Mariah has been gone, 55 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: so we have you know, I want to discuss that 56 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: with her when she gets back, even though I really 57 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: want to rid talking about Kanye on the show, but 58 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: I gotta do what we gotta do. So um, you know, 59 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: hope when Mariah gets back, we're gonna get into those 60 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: sort of things. But today we have another Dope episode 61 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: for you, and Mariah is going to be with us 62 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: by way of an interview. She's gonna be talking with 63 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: Dr Mark Katz, who's a professor at the University of 64 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: North Carolina and the founder of the State Department program 65 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: and Next Level. I would get all into that, but 66 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: they're going to cover it all in the interview and 67 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: more so, you guys stay tuned. We're gonna be right 68 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: back with that after the jump. So today I'm joined 69 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: by Professor Mark Cat's author Build the Power of Hip 70 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: Hop Diplomacy in an Divided World, based on his experience 71 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: as as founding director of Next Level US State Department Fund, 72 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: a program that sends US hip hop artists abroad a 73 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 1: full foster cultural exchange, conflict transformation, and entrepreneurship. Professor Cats 74 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: also teaches courses on music and Technology, popular music, and 75 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: cultural diplomacy at the University of North Carolina. Dr Kats, 76 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here today. How are you. 77 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: I'm good and thanks for inviting me. I'm really happy 78 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: to be talking with you. Sweet me too. Um. To 79 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: start out, I'm really curious how one just ends up 80 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: in the business of hip hop diplomacy. Given your background 81 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: in teaching music and technology. So how did this sort 82 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: of unfold for you? Well, it's like a lot of things. 83 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: It's not a direct path and I didn't set out 84 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: to do this, but I had been doing research on 85 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: hip hop for years. I had written a book about deejaying. UM, 86 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: I studied dejaying. I've taught classes with hip hop artists 87 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: and by the way, I consider myself more of a 88 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: hip hop scholar than practitioner. UM. I do a little deejaying, 89 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: but I came at this as a scholar and teacher. 90 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: And I have to give credit to UM to a 91 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: great musician, rapper and singer and activist and politician named 92 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: Pierce Freelon who told me about this opportunity from the 93 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: State Department. He he found the call for proposals for 94 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: a project of that came to be known as Next Level. 95 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: That didn't wasn't called that at the time, but he said, Hey, Mark, 96 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: there's this U saying opportunity. UM, we should go for it. 97 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: And I had been working with him. I was a 98 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: chair of the music department at the University of North 99 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: Carolina at Chapel Hill, and I had hired him to 100 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: UM to teach a or co teach a beat making class. 101 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: And he saw this opportunity said, you know, this looks 102 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: a lot like the kinds of things that were already 103 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: doing and UM in terms of working with the hip 104 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: hop community and connecting students with practitioners and UH. And 105 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: he said, this just looks like an amazing opportunity. So 106 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: I thought, okay, you know, I'll apply for it. It 107 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: was this massive application that that I had to do 108 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: in a couple of weeks, but because I didn't learn 109 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: about it until, you know, a few weeks before the deadline, 110 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: and amazingly it came through and I had to figure 111 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: out how to create a hip hop diplomacy program. Yeah, 112 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: and so it kind of built somewhat off of or 113 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: you had experience already in working internationally. I think he 114 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: worked at a youth center in the Democratic Republic of Congo. 115 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: Is that correct? Well, yes, but of course specifically UM, 116 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: Pierce Freelan and a another artist, a producer named Apple 117 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: Juice Kid went there, and Uh, I had first taught 118 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: this beat making class with UH with Apple Juice, and 119 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: then he started working with UM with Pierce, and then 120 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: I heard about this opportunity from a colleague to do 121 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: some work in Congo, and we were able to raise 122 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: money to send them to Congo. I actually went later, 123 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: so but that led to UM a big series of 124 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: two week workshops around the world called beat Making Lab 125 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: col Yeah, so was did you find there to be 126 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: a sea learning here? We're trying to build out the 127 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: program for a lot of different cultural national contexts around 128 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: the world as a part of next level or what 129 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: sorts of experiences were transferable from those beat Making workshops 130 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: into actually working with the State Department. But I would 131 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: say there was both a steep learning curve and a 132 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: lot that we were able to transfer UM because the 133 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: steep learning curve part was where things that were very 134 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: specific to working in diplomacy and with State Department. Uh. 135 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: For one thing in government, there are millions of acronyms 136 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: that you know, don't you know, you just have to 137 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: learn what they are, and no one tells you. They 138 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: just speak in acronyms, and then you have to figure 139 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: it out UM, and then they're just it's actually just 140 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: a culture unto itself, the world of bureaucuracy and diplomacy. 141 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of a lot of learning about 142 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: what the what practices are, what the structures are and 143 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: all that. Um, so that was that was a bit steep. 144 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 1: But but I also knew my way or around bureaucracies 145 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: having been a chair and being a chair and a 146 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: music department at a big university, So I got that part. 147 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: But the but the transferable, transferable skills, we're really just 148 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: the concept of building. And my book is called build 149 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: and that's the Yeah, So it was it was the 150 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: it's it's a term that I had heard a lot, 151 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: but then after hearing it for a while, I realized, actually, 152 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: this is a this is a central concept of central 153 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: kind of guiding concept and value in the work that 154 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: I'm doing, which is not not so much teaching, not 155 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: so much bestowing knowledge on others or uh, you know, 156 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: dropping science, but it's working together and it's it's creating 157 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 1: something together that you can do alone. And I would 158 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: say that was probably the the most important concept or 159 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: world view that that I, uh, that I learned from 160 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: hip hop. And I credit hip hop teaching me that 161 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: because I've been a teacher for many years and the 162 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: model is, you know, the teacher has all the information 163 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: and gives it to the students and and I can't 164 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: say I was one of those types that just stood 165 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: up at lectured all the time. I always preferred a 166 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: collaborative approach. But when when I would hear people talking 167 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: about building and saying, um, you know, I don't want 168 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: these Americans coming into Zimbabwe and teaching us hip hop, 169 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: I want to build with them, that really clarified for 170 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: me what hip hop diplomacy is about. It's about Americans, 171 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: U S citizens building collaboratively with hip hop artists around 172 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: the world. Yeah, and so I was curious if this 173 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: concept of building that is very central to hip hop, y'all, 174 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: let's link, let's build, let's lab Um if there's like 175 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: a if there's a an analog, it's not there to 176 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: be an analog in other cultural context where you all 177 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 1: are working or they have the similar ethos of like, yo, 178 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: let's link, let's let's build, you know, and and uh yeah, well, 179 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 1: I mean there are concepts like that in a lot 180 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: of cultures. But the interesting thing is that people use 181 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: the specific English word built really yeah, and um, so 182 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: it is uh you know that's the word that they 183 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: used in zif Bobwe That's a word I heard in 184 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: um Man marked word. I mean I've heard it all 185 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: over the world and um, and it's funny just on that, 186 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: on that point about hip hop slang or language. Um, 187 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: you know, I would say, like, what do you call 188 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: an argument you know that that people in hip hop have, 189 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: and they said, well, it's a beef, you know, like 190 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: they would use the word, the English word beef, even 191 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: though it was you know, it was not their language. 192 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: So um. It was always surprising to me how the 193 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: language and ethos of hip hop has spread around the world. 194 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: But I will say it's not like it was. It's 195 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,719 Speaker 1: not a kind of colonizing or purialistic spread. It's more 196 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: like concepts that are native hip hop connected with concepts 197 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: that were native in other countries and just found a connection. 198 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: So um. One thing that was that I always felt 199 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: going to other countries, I could be in a place 200 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: and most of the time I was in a place 201 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: I've never been before, was that the connection between the 202 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: artists coming from the US and the artists in the 203 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: country we visited was more like not a diplomatic delegation 204 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: of country of you know, men in suits and meeting 205 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: each other for the first time, but more like a 206 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: family reunion where you meet cousins for the first time. 207 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: You you've never met them but their family, so there's 208 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: an automatic kind of connection. That's how it felt to me. Awesome, 209 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: it sounds amazing. Um, but you did mention, um imperialism, 210 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: and I wanted to ask some about you know, artists, 211 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: particularly you know within hip hop. There it's a very 212 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: anti authoritarian stands. Oftentimes there's you know, critique of the government. 213 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: And said, so, um uh, some artists had some qualms 214 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: or you know, dealt internally with some questions about how 215 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: he felt it's about going abroad and you know, working 216 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: with the State Department. So, um, could you talk some 217 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: about how artists grappled with their distrust of the US 218 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: government or their embraced of the opportunity of travel, and 219 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: how those questions of you know, being a part of 220 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: of the state apparatus in a certain way was dealt 221 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: with by various people you worked with. Well, it's a 222 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: good question, and it's a question I basically asked every 223 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: single person, every hip hop artist that I worked with, 224 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: because I was I was curious about it, and I 225 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: wanted to know what would make them feel comfortable with 226 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: the idea of working with the government and I got 227 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: a lot of different answers, but but basically when it 228 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: comes down to is the idea of uh agency and autonomy? 229 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: Could the artists honor or could the project honor the 230 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: agency of the individual artists and let them act as 231 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: as the artists they want to be? Did they have 232 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: the autonomy to say what they want to to build 233 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: in the way they want? And if the answer is yes, 234 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: then okay, I can. I can work with these people 235 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: because they're allowing me to be the person I am, 236 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: the artist I am, and they're paying me, and um, 237 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: you know, there's also a sense of this is the 238 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: real world, old meaning that I've come across, and it's 239 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: I have to say, it's usually other academics who will 240 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: kind of uh, you know, sniff at this and say, oh, yeah, 241 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: so you're just turning these poor hip hop artists into imperialists. 242 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: And you know my thought as well, First of all, 243 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: I don't have that kind of power to turn hip 244 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: hop artists like they do what they want. You know. 245 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: It's like, don't don't give me the credit which I 246 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: don't want of being able to turn these incredibly strong 247 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: willed artists into puppets of the U S. Government. But 248 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: then there's also the kind of the blinders that those 249 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: of us and I include myself, who who enjoy a 250 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: certain privilege in life to be able to criticize those 251 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: who have to make hard decisions about who to work with, 252 00:15:55,120 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: about where to take money, um, about what opportunity needs 253 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: to take. And I spent a lot of time talking 254 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: with hip hop artists and just listening, and I remember 255 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: one conversation where where a group and these were all 256 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: men who were talking about and they were all from 257 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: different cities in the US. And what they said is, 258 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: and they all agreed with each other, um, that it 259 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: wasn't a question of whether they were going to join 260 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: a gang, who is which gang what they joined, They 261 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: simply did not have the option not to be in 262 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: that life. But from a certain vantage point, or a 263 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: certain privilege vantage point, you could say, well, you always 264 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: have a choice, and um, and my criticize people for 265 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: making these choices. And that's what I learned is that's 266 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: not the real world for a lot of a lot 267 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: of artists. UM. And of course there are there are 268 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: people and fearing degrees of privilege within I'm not trying 269 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: to uh to paint with a really broad brush. But 270 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: but the reality is if if the government is coming 271 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: to you and saying we're going to pay you, and 272 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: we're going to pay you money that that you might 273 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: not be able to make otherwise, and you're going to 274 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: get to travel as an artist, it doesn't make a 275 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: whole lot of sense for people to turn that down 276 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: just without even thinking about it. So um, so I 277 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: would say, you know, the there's a lot of sophisticated 278 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: thinking that goes into this. And one thing I always 279 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: appreciated was that that no one went in thinking that 280 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: there wasn't the possibility of being compromised or being used. 281 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: It was just like, I'm going in with my eyes 282 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: wide open and I'm going to I'm going to be 283 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: careful and I'm going to try to be the artist 284 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: I want to be. But I do know that there's 285 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 1: a possibility of uh, compromise or exploitation. But the fact 286 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: is that's that's life really, that's you know, that's not 287 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: different from from deciding whether to take a job, you know, uh, 288 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: do a gig for Sprite or for you know, Nike, 289 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,959 Speaker 1: you know, or for a school or for a you know, 290 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: an n g O or university. So I mean The 291 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: thing is to be clear, I'm not trying to say 292 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 1: that the government, the US government doesn't have a very 293 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: specific history of exploitation. It does. And one of the 294 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: things that I always um that I have tried to 295 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: do is to educate myself about that history. So I 296 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: actually can can talk about any number of times that 297 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,959 Speaker 1: the US government has overthrown other countries have as you know, 298 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: I can tell you about the coup's in you know, 299 00:18:55,400 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: Guatemala or Iran, or you know, assassinations in in congo 300 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: Um and all that. So I don't pretend that this 301 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,719 Speaker 1: is not part of our history. But one thing that 302 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: I appreciate about the artists I work with is they say, look, 303 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: if the government should be hiring me, you know, rather 304 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: than than doing all the stuff that that I criticize 305 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: them for. Finally they're doing something good with the money 306 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: and hiring me as an artist. So there are a 307 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: lot of you know, there's a lot more to say 308 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: about that, but it's it's nuanced, and it's something that I, 309 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: you know, would really want people who are not in, 310 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: who are looking in from the outside to understand that 311 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: these are very sophisticated thinkers who are dealing with with 312 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: a world that does not allow them to just stand 313 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 1: on the sidelines. Yeah, and then the book you talk 314 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: a lot about like subversive complicity, like people who just 315 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: like they come in, they represent where they from, what 316 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: they about, what their politics are. So I wonder the 317 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: flip side, what then was the State Department's handling of 318 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: like the artist just kind of being who they are, 319 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: while also you know, being tasked with supposedly representing the 320 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: US government in these different contexts. Well, it's tricky for 321 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 1: them because you know, we've had artists who will just 322 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: say I am I'm an anti imperialist in the US 323 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: is an imperialist country. So um, I mean most of 324 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: the time, the reality is that we don't have people 325 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: just following us around all the time watching everything. So um. 326 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: The reality is that that if you know, we go 327 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: to a you know, a certain country and one of 328 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: the artists wants to connect with people and and you know, 329 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: have tea and talk about you know, their anti imperialist views, 330 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: that's that happens, um and um. And I actually don't 331 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: think that the people at the embassy would try to 332 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: stop that. Um. They you know, there is a certain 333 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: amount of discomfort, but I think they just have to 334 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 1: deal with it. And there was there is an occasion 335 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: I think I do mention this in the book where 336 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: where one of our artists, Pinky Ring, very outspoken, amazing 337 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: m C from Chicago, UM had a song called Revolution Revolution, 338 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: and you know, she just just you know, just laid 339 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: into police and Trump government. And she actually performed this 340 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: at the ambassador's residence in Cambodia, you know this, and 341 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: UM and the people from the embassy afterwards kind of 342 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: gently came up and said, you know, maybe don't perform 343 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 1: that at our public show, you know, tomorrow, And the 344 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: response of the team was no, We're going to perform 345 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: it and I and you know, uh, and the world 346 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: didn't end, you know, it was actually it was fine. 347 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: You had American artists criticizing their own government and UM, 348 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: I know, you know, I'm sure that it made people 349 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable at the embassy. But on the other hand, 350 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: if you want proof that that these aren't puppets, and 351 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,360 Speaker 1: you know, these hip hop artists are speaking their mind, well, 352 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: having them criticize the boss, you know, the president at 353 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: that time was Trump, UM, should be you know, pretty 354 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,959 Speaker 1: clear proof that the US allows its citizens to criticize 355 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: its governor. Yeah, and so in a way I think 356 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 1: it's used to be around in the books someone like 357 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: actually building more with the people who in these contexts 358 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: that may be critical of US government as well. But 359 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: it's like, yo, I actually feel you on that. I'm 360 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: on the same day. But yeah, we've talked about a 361 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: couple of different forms of internal conflict or conflict with like, yeah, 362 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: the messaging of different artists versus like the goals of 363 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: the State Department. And in chapter two you say and 364 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: seeking to transform conflict, we were also according it and 365 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: it makes me think of, um, I don't know, I 366 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 1: remember that Dave Chappelle sketch like keeping a reel goes 367 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: wrong life? What if they get into these like kind 368 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: of comical uh conflicts because you know, they're just representing 369 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: and then it it goes poorly. So I wanted to 370 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: unpack what that means a little bit according conflict in 371 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: these contacts as well as if you can speak something 372 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: about the idea of conflict transformation. Yeah, thanks, So I'll 373 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: start with conflict transformation. So that's a less common term 374 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 1: than conflict resolution, but the idea is that instead of 375 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: resolving beef between two groups. It's a more general term 376 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: for transforming conflict, meaning harnessing conflict which is in our 377 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: lives and is in escapable. We we actually recognize that 378 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,959 Speaker 1: conflict is part of life and it's not something that 379 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: can be avoided. So really the question is not how 380 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: do you avoid conflict, but how do you transform that 381 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: energy into something positive? So um and art is a 382 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: great way to do that. I mean we anyone who 383 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: knows the history of hip hop knows that it transforms 384 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: conflict into rhyme and to dance and de beats, into 385 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: graffiti into writing so on. So that's the that's the 386 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: idea behind conflict transformation. That we're not going in there 387 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: trying to break up fights because you have to know 388 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: the history. Uh, you have to know the history much 389 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: more than than we can and the culture in order 390 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: to mediate a conflict. And we're not sent in as mediators. 391 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: And that's that gets the idea of courting conflict because 392 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 1: if you think about it, Let's say, you know, you 393 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: see two people arguing, um, just on the street, and 394 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: you go in and you say, hey, you know, can't 395 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: you to get along? Like who are you? Yeah? Get 396 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: out of you? Um? Yeah, like who, Like, what the 397 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: hell do you know? And um and you know, and 398 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: that's just like someone in your own culture. It could 399 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: be someone in your own family. Now, imagine going to 400 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: another country, representing the U. S. Government and trying to 401 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: step in the middle of some could be generations or 402 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: centuries long conflict and saying, um, Okay, here's what you're 403 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: gonna do. I mean, it's he's like, no, man, you 404 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 1: don't know what's been going on out here. We're like, yeah, 405 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: I could. He's entered exactly. So it's it. Actually to 406 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: do that is to show the worst kind of ugly 407 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: American uh you know, caricature, which is that we're arrogant, 408 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: that we we go into into situations that we without 409 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: knowing what we're doing. So so we try to avoid that. 410 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: We try to go in asking questions, We um, we listen, 411 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: we show respect, We try to learn as much as 412 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: we can, and we try to respect people by not 413 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: trying by trying, by avoiding trying to solve their problems 414 00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: for them, but instead using hip hop as a means 415 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: to develop tools that they could use to express themselves. 416 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: And um, and so even then, I should say, we 417 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: could still be creating problems that we don't know about. 418 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 1: I mean, our our mere existence can create problems because 419 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: I've seen this happen. We come in and I mean, 420 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: it's it's pretty easy to understand when you step back 421 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: and think about it. But let's say somebody from another 422 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: country comes in and into your community and says, I'm 423 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: going to teach your students how to do what you 424 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: teach them, and you know, people might say, well, I'm 425 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: not sure that I want you doing that, and um, 426 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 1: and that is that has happened even before we say anything. 427 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: Or mere existence can create conflicts. So we have to 428 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: go in and I've I've seen this over and over 429 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: again and kind of show our you know, you know, 430 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: our our intent are, you know, demonstrate our respect. So 431 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: you know, I've had conversations where people kind of stand 432 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 1: there with their arms crossed, kind of staring at us, 433 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: and and over the course of a couple of hours 434 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: will kind of relax like, Okay, we get it, we 435 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: understand why you're here. So one Um, that's one reason 436 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: why we always take an advanced trip before the residency. 437 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: So a couple of people, the manager of the residency 438 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 1: and someone else, sometimes just the manager, but we'll go 439 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: and meet with a bunch of people before anything else 440 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: happens and just get to know them. So that paves 441 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: the way for a for a smoother residency. And that 442 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 1: is really crucial because just showing up and on day 443 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 1: one and saying, you know, snapping your fingers and saying, Okay, 444 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: here's how it's going to be done is not the 445 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: way to create mutual respect and understanding mutual understandings the 446 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: language that State Department uses, and it's not the way 447 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 1: to build with people. He talked a little bit about 448 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: some into like barriers you would encounter upon during new contexts, 449 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:04,959 Speaker 1: but then all the ways of transcending them. Were there 450 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: any limitations to hip hop thephalmacy that he felt like, 451 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: well this is just the line for this work. Well there, yes, 452 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 1: I mean there are always cultural differences that you know, 453 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: but it comes down to it, uh, there's it's it's 454 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: better just to be respectful and not go there. So 455 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: for example, um, you know, we went to Jordan's and 456 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: you know, um, Israel is just saying the word Israel, 457 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: the name Israel and Jordan's. It's almost like a fighting word. 458 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,719 Speaker 1: Even if you're not saying thing positive about Israel, you know, 459 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: and and um, I learned that, you know, I learned 460 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: that the hard way. And I didn't say anything positive 461 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: about Israel. I just said I made like some parenthetical 462 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: remark about how, um, you know Israel was a neighbor 463 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: and and you know, I was talking about conflict. Idn't 464 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: see you know, you have conflict with neighbors, And just 465 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: saying that name was enough to get people really riled 466 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: up and upset with me. And I was like, well, 467 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: well I didn't you know. I was like, okay, I 468 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: just I should not have gone there. And there's there's 469 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: nothing that that you know, good intentions would have helped 470 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: in that situation. So what I learned sometimes you just 471 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: have to shut up and and really, um, I mean 472 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: this is a kind of truism, but it reminds me 473 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: you've got to stick to what you know and um, 474 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: and if you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk. 475 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: And sometimes and that actually is hard to do. And 476 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: I will say it's hard for Americans to do because 477 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: we're told that we're exceptional, that we're the greatest country 478 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: in the world, and we have to actually push against 479 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: that kind of indoctrination that we've experienced and and come 480 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: in with humility and realize that there's a lot we 481 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: don't know. I want thank you again so much for 482 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: taking the time out the chat with me. The book 483 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: is called Build the Power of Hip Hop Diplomacy in 484 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: a Divide the World tongues of fascinating stories of hip 485 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: hop artists in different countries, different hijinks, and different lessons 486 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,479 Speaker 1: um about the power of hip optopomacy as well as 487 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: a limitation. So I recommend y'all check it out and 488 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: Dr Kat states again to your time. Well, thank you. 489 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: This has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate 490 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: that opportunity to talk with you. All right, and that 491 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: was the interview, you know, listening to stuff like that, 492 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: I always love it because it makes me feel like 493 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: a certain amount of pride in being a hip hopper 494 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: or hip hop head or hip hop artists and just 495 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: involved with like hip hop culture. Because it's just like 496 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: you know, you can literally use for anything, you know, 497 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: we've mentioned before, using it as a tool of education, 498 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: using it in politics. It's just it's beautiful. It beautiful ship. 499 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: But that's what we got for this week. Next week, 500 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: I don't want to give any false advertisements. But I 501 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: think Mariah maybe back next week. If she isn't, it's 502 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: gonna be like the last week that she's gone. Pretty sure. 503 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: But I will see you guys next week. And I'm 504 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: gonna close this off like we closed off every episode 505 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: with a little bit of rapping and yeah, you know what, 506 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: we don't even gotta get a new beat, Yo and 507 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: Joe just turn the ship up. Let me let me 508 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: go in. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah, now hip hop 509 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: hip hip it to the Dope Knife popping it, don't 510 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: stop the rocking to the rom stop dropping, and I'm 511 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: called by the copsit and they lock me till I'm 512 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: back on the street. Now. Thank y'all for tuning into 513 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: Waiting to Reparate. Love y'all so much, hope that we 514 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: never separate. Give a like a comment, maybe an extra play. 515 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: That was time that I'd beat y'all. Y'all have the 516 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: best to day. Hey, all right, you are rocking with 517 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: Dope Knife the Rap Wizard, and you are listening to 518 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: Waiting on Reparations. See y'all next week. Winning on Reparations 519 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts on 520 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, 521 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.