WEBVTT - The Staten Island Problem - Part 3: The Tuvalu Effect 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:21.919 Pushkin Ben Mata Haffer Here before we get into this episode, 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:23.639 I wanted to let you know that you can hear 0:00:23.759 --> 0:00:27.360 all episodes of Revisionist History The Staten Island Problem ad 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.040 free right now. By signing up for Pushkin Plus, you'll 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.360 also get bonus episodes, full audiobooks, and other binges from 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.920 your favorite Pushkin hosts and authors. Plus, your support helps 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:40.800 independent shows like us continue making the stories you love. 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.400 Sign up and save on the Revisionist History show page 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:48.080 on Apple Podcasts. Where at Pushkin dot fm, slash plus 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.560 use the code R twenty five for twenty five percent 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:55.840 off an annual subscription. All right, let's get into the series. 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:01.920 Every morning, a Staten Island attorney named David Goldfarb used 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:04.160 to walk by Burrow Hall on his way to the ferry. 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.839 Some days he'd see a short, white haired man with 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:14.319 big glasses waving him down. Borough. President Guy Molinary. Mollinary, 0:01:14.479 --> 0:01:17.479 you might remember from episode one, was Staten Island's rabble 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:21.640 rouser in chief. He was constantly feuding with the Dinkins administration. 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:24.279 He would stop and see me and ask me to 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:27.199 come into his office. He liked to talk to anybody 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.479 and everybody. He would just call you in their office 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.279 and would sit down and just have this. And I 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:35.559 would say, you know, I have to go to work, 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:38.600 I have to get a ferry, but he wants. He 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:40.120 loved to talk about it. 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:48.320 The it here is secession. Molinary loved to talk about 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:52.040 it because everyone was talking about it, and David Goldfarb 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:56.760 was worried. He liked being part of New York City. 0:01:57.720 --> 0:01:59.760 He and his wife lived on the North Shore, the 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:02.800 most diverse part of the island, closest to Manhattan, in 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:04.960 a house with a pull and, depending on the season, 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:08.680 two pink lawn flamingos. He worked in a law firm 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.520 in Manhattan. He did not want to secede from New York, 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.519 and from their conversations, it seemed like Mullinary was maybe 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.760 on his side. He had not yet endorsed secession. 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:23.280 He told me in the beginning, point blank, that this 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:28.160 is never going to be allowed by the Assembly. He said, 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:30.160 you know it, say, don't worry about it. It's not 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:30.919 going to happen. 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.640 That may have been what Mullinary was saying, but something 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:41.160 was clearly brewing. The movement was everywhere. 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:44.280 Welcome to our special cable in the classroom feature on 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:48.120 the history of secession, produced exclusively by Staten Island Cable. 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:52.000 The local cable station had even made tapes for classrooms 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:53.480 to teach kids about secession. 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:55.840 The people know why they feel the way they do 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.480 because they know the facts through learning and education. 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:00.680 They were not exactly unbiased. 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:05.120 The future of Staten Island is being decided now, history 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:05.760 is being made. 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:09.360 Be a part of it. 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:12.040 David Goldfar did not want to be part of it. 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:16.720 What is your nightmare situation here? 0:03:17.920 --> 0:03:21.400 I mean with the North Shore end up like Northern Ireland, 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.040 with some of the communities on the north Shore that 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.480 voted against it would not be included. It would be 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:31.120 the same situation you have network Staten Island felt or 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.040 alienated from the City of New York. Parts of the 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.280 North Shore would have felt alienated from the rest of 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:38.120 Staten Island. 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:48.200 The secessionists had to be stopped. You're listening to revisionist history. 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.120 I'm then that of Haffrey and this is the Staten 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:54.480 Island problem. Our series about the Staten Island secession movement 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:57.640 of the nineteen nineties and more broadly, about what we 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:03.240 do when in democracy fractures. Last episode was about the 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:07.520 psychology of secession who wants to leave and why? This 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:10.520 episode is about the people who don't want to leave 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.520 and the fight that ensued between them in the battle 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:21.679 for Staten Island. This is episode three the two value effect. 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.960 As the secessionists marauded around the island and the cable 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:38.240 news station went to work brainwashing the children, the people 0:04:38.280 --> 0:04:40.640 on Staten Island who actually liked being part of New 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:44.680 York City realized they had to get organized, so Goldfarb 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:48.279 joined a group of like minded individuals Staten Islanders for 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.440 Unified New York Siphoony, the message of which was what 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.440 are you doing? This is going to ruin Staten Island. 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:57.560 It'll be fairly. 0:04:57.760 --> 0:04:59.760 It'll be a free, floating debate. 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.360 The debaters will feel free to interrupt each other. 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:07.800 One spring evening in nineteen ninety three, Siphuni and the 0:05:07.840 --> 0:05:10.719 pro secessionists gathered at the College of Staten Island for 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:14.159 a debate. The space looks like a lecture hall. Four 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:16.760 men in suits at a table with Mike's heroes and 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.480 cokes on a table on the back. A handful of 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:24.040 students and concerned citizens sit in the audience, and Goldfarb 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:25.599 was front and center. 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:30.760 Speaking against se session will be mister David Goldfarb, an 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:34.760 attorney active in many local civic groups impacted. 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:34.960 All these people. 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.960 Siphony went toe to toe with the secessionists all around 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:41.960 the island again and again. The big secessionist organization was 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:43.120 called Vote Yes, Inc. 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:48.680 Speaking in favor of secession will be mister Dan Singletary, 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:50.040 a local artist. 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:56.600 Dan Singletary, the artist slash Cowboy from last episode, represented them, if. 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:00.000 We start and we build a new city of stat Noland, 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:02.720 a city for the first for the twenty first century, 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:04.920 the first city of the twenty first century. 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:05.080 We could date. 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.360 Singletary was promoting a glorious vision of what the island 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:13.080 could be. Goldfarb was bringing them back down to earth. 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.080 If Staten Island became an independent city, they were going 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:17.400 to have to take care of a whole lot of 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.720 things for themselves, like a police department or a public 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:25.760 school system. They'd finally have to build a jail. David 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:27.880 Goldfarb had a lot to say about that. 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:31.240 These are the things that you're just going to have 0:06:31.280 --> 0:06:34.440 to lose, because there's absolutely no way that Staten Island's 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:35.480 going to have to be able to add this to 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:37.840 their capital budget. Because you're not going to be when 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.680 the police officer arrests somebody on Staten Island, they're not 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:42.960 going to be able to send that person to Rikers Island. 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:44.400 They're not going to be able to send them to 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.039 the lock up overnight in Brooklyn. They're going to have 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:48.720 to have a jail on Staten Island. City of New 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:50.960 York is not going to take our prisoners. These are 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:52.720 costs you're going to have to pacete. I think it's 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:55.000 going to be a major step backwards financially. 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:58.400 Goldfarb, it's worth noting, has argued in front of the 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:03.240 Supreme Court. Singletary fired back, you have just seen. 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:07.120 A perfect example, a classic example of what's being played 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.840 out in what's called the politics of fear. He never 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:15.480 said one good thing. Isn't there any hope? That's not me. 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:17.000 They don't have any hope. 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:22.200 As I watched the tapes, I felt like Siphoony was 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.200 pointing out the obvious. Being part of New York City 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:29.160 was financially a great deal for a small island. Goldfarb 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:33.000 was saying, the future is unknown and probably worse. Singletary 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.600 was arguing that the present was known and bad, and 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:37.520 the future might be a lot better. 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:39.200 To either of you. 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:39.400 Guys. 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:40.600 I asked this question before. 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.360 I know how many agencies and commissions there are in 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:43.680 New York. 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:44.520 Any why din't you tell us? 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:47.800 Dan, I have no idea, and the Marion tell either. 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:49.360 But this is what's being funded. 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:50.800 This is what's being funded. 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:53.600 We have The last singletary holds up an ominous looking 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:55.920 stack of papers. 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.800 Okay, anyway, this is a list of anciencies and things 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:01.920 that you've never heard of, never used. Why don't we 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.480 start cutting this instead of these guys always saying the 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:05.440 essential services? 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:07.360 Okay, let me just tell you us that follow up 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.320 on his question, we may or may not be obviously. 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:13.800 The definition of singletary was joined by Vote Yes Inks 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.920 champion debater Robert Scammerdella you met him last episode two. 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:20.800 He's the attorney who grew up on Staten Island and 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.440 remembers it prebridge as an entirely different and better place. 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.440 At the debate, he sat back in his chair, arms folded, 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:29.720 looking a little grumpy. 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.400 What I do know is this that since the end 0:08:33.439 --> 0:08:35.679 of World War Two, the city of New York has 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:39.319 been an economic decline. I believe that that economic decline 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.439 will continue because the City of New York doesn't have 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:47.479 the people or the willingness to embark upon those policies 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.399 that are necessary to turn that decline around. The other 0:08:50.439 --> 0:08:52.480 thing I know is that Staten Island has the highest 0:08:52.479 --> 0:08:55.000 per capita income of any borough in the City of 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.759 New York. From that, I could do Staten Island will have. 0:08:57.719 --> 0:09:01.240 The economic resources to survive and to be in a 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.439 position to make their own decisions about firemen and policemen 0:09:04.479 --> 0:09:07.319 and college professors and every other decision that affects me 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:09.120 and everyone else who lives on Staten Island. 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:13.559 Like the Great American Revolution, this secession debate was really 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:17.120 all about taxes. Votes was saying, we'll figure it out, 0:09:17.199 --> 0:09:20.839 and who needs all those services anyways? Goldfarb was saying, 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.079 you need more than you think, and it's going to 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:23.520 cost you. 0:09:24.439 --> 0:09:26.559 And that's they are because if it's a political decision 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:27.559 and you're willing. 0:09:27.319 --> 0:09:29.999 To pay those extra taxes, that's something that that has 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:30.720 to be considered. 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:32.879 But let's talk about or maybe. 0:09:32.599 --> 0:09:33.400 Stayed on the low way. 0:09:33.479 --> 0:09:36.679 Taxes, well, they want to speculate, I'll speculate that doctors, 0:09:36.719 --> 0:09:38.519 well all that name finish. 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.040 This spilled out way beyond the debate stage. It was 0:09:42.079 --> 0:09:44.479 in the paper all the time. He was the hot 0:09:44.479 --> 0:09:47.760 topic of conversation all over the island. When I sat 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.520 down with Scammerdella, he remembered this one time he and 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:52.800 his wife went to a wedding at the Staten, the 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:54.400 island's grand catering hall. 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.160 Go out to a social event. A wedding is sitting 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.080 at a table with people you don't know, uh, and 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:02.559 the Broyde cuts the cake. Was irrelevant. Here we are 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:06.000 talking about, uh, the secession. 0:10:06.319 --> 0:10:07.519 How did your wife feel about this? 0:10:07.839 --> 0:10:10.959 Well, she was very upset. We're on the way home 0:10:11.479 --> 0:10:14.360 and she was like, you know, can't you just deal 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:16.280 with the secession thing when you're at these debates? You 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:18.800 got to turn a wedding into a secession debate. I 0:10:18.839 --> 0:10:21.240 didn't start it, ask me the question, and. 0:10:21.959 --> 0:10:22.559 Here we went. 0:10:22.719 --> 0:10:25.960 So it was a bit of an embarrassing moment for me. 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:28.439 I guess I regret that I did what I did. 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:32.520 But the point is it was a hot button issue. 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.839 An interesting fact I learned about city secession movements at 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.719 large is most of the time it's about taxes. A 0:10:44.839 --> 0:10:46.959 rich area thinks, why should we pay for all of 0:10:46.959 --> 0:10:49.559 those services? The poor people are getting. If we just 0:10:49.719 --> 0:10:53.040 hoarded our resources, we could have it so much better here. 0:10:53.959 --> 0:10:57.520 What's weird about Staten Island secession is that multiple studies 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:01.040 by New York City and the secessionists agreed that Staten 0:11:01.079 --> 0:11:05.079 Island got more in tax revenue than it paid. The 0:11:05.079 --> 0:11:08.319 secession movement you'd expect from New York City is that Manhattan, 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.439 with all that Wall Street money, leaves the other four burroughs, 0:11:11.959 --> 0:11:16.920 not Staten Island. Goldfarb was raising kind of a good point. 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.000 What was the long game here? What was the tax base? 0:11:20.079 --> 0:11:22.280 How are they going to close the dump if that 0:11:22.439 --> 0:11:26.640 was Staten Island's most valuable asset. Also, what about the 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:30.720 fact that New York City controlled their water supply? So 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.120 Goldfarb I think was right, but the momentum was not 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:37.920 at all on his side because something else was going 0:11:37.959 --> 0:11:42.880 on here, something hiding in plain sight, having to do 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:49.839 with a remote Polynesian island called Tuvalu. We'll be right back. 0:12:01.079 --> 0:12:03.960 I have this feeling that nothing holds anymore like. I 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:06.000 work in media, and where a career used to mean 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.120 you go work at a big newspaper or magazine, these days, 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:12.719 it's starting your own newsletter. Or podcast one person, maybe 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:17.400 two in a mic. Or take international affairs, the United Nations, NATO, 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:21.759 the European Union, Brexit. There's this mass loss of faith 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:24.599 in the ability of people or nations to form groups 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:28.120 that work for the benefit of everyone. Put another way, 0:12:28.439 --> 0:12:30.439 we seem to be living in an era to find 0:12:30.479 --> 0:12:34.640 by the principle that every man is an island. So 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:37.760 I started thinking, maybe the best way to understand the 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:41.360 world and the Staten island problem bedeviling it is to 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:46.920 speak to an authority on islands. What even is island studies? 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:49.959 Okay, so I mean I'm in Malta. 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.760 So Malta is itself in archipelago, right, It's actually the 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:54.999 tent smalll lest country in the world by land area. 0:12:57.239 --> 0:13:01.559 Godfrey Baldachino, professor of island studies, which maybe should be 0:13:01.599 --> 0:13:04.920 called archipelago studies, and which took me down a deep 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:08.319 but very necessary rabbit hole. Join me. 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:14.000 These islands are islands plural. It is very rare that 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.280 you find a single island. In fact, of the world's 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:24.000 forty eighth island countries, only five are single islands. 0:13:24.439 --> 0:13:24.839 Wow. 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.679 So we're talking in the plural, and therefore in some 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:33.520 of these configurations. There is a very interesting dynamic going 0:13:33.599 --> 0:13:35.879 on within the archipelago right. 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.319 Most archipelago states have a strict hierarchy, beginning with the 0:13:41.319 --> 0:13:45.000 mainland that dominates the other islands. New York City is 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.320 an archipelago, and it turns out that the weird thing 0:13:48.439 --> 0:13:51.719 happening in New York in the nineties is actually entirely 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.640 in line with weird things that happen on other archipelagos 0:13:54.719 --> 0:14:01.079 all the time, for instance, the trash island. 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.479 Where you have archipelagos, the tendency has been to export 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:07.679 the waste from the mainland where the bulk of the 0:14:07.719 --> 0:14:10.559 population lives, where the bulk of the waste is produced, 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.679 and you export it to another island. 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.960 In the archipelago. Sometimes you dedicate an island to waste. 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:20.600 The classic example is in the Maldives. The Maldives is 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:24.120 a fantastic tourism destination and the Indian Ocean, but it 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:25.720 also has a waste island. 0:14:26.359 --> 0:14:28.960 Really just an entire island. That's just an entire island. 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:30.399 Yeah, Ti La Fusi is the name. 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.960 But so what about when the waste island is inhabited 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:37.600 but by a political minority and a population minority. 0:14:38.239 --> 0:14:42.239 The temptation to use it to dump is massive. It's 0:14:42.239 --> 0:14:46.520 not necessarily municipal waste. That could be human waste. Convicts, 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:51.639 for example, prisons islands have tended to be associated with prisons, 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:54.280 with quarantine stations, with leappar stations. 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:56.720 Right Saten Island had all those things. 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:00.840 Okay, there you are. 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:06.480 Australia was Britain's prison island. Tasmania was Australia's prison island, 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:09.560 and then off of Tasmania there were even smaller islands 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.920 than we're their prison island. It's all islands, all the 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:16.200 way down, islands putting things they don't want on other islands, 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:19.840 escaping to yet further islands. One of the ways to 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:24.440 stop that island cascade is theoretically a bridge like what 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:25.519 Staten Island got. 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:31.080 Bridges create what is called distance decay, right, so the 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:32.680 islands have become closer. 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.080 The bridge was finally supposed to tie the islands of 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.440 New York together, but this bridge became yet another problem 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:43.119 for Staten Island, not least of all because of its toll. 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:48.200 Where After there are tolls, the argument goes, especially from 0:15:48.239 --> 0:15:51.040 the island, there's point of view, they're not crossing over 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:52.120 to go on a holiday. 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:53.680 They're not tourists. 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:53.960 You know. 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:56.160 Sometimes I have to cross over for work, for school, 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.000 visiting relatives. So this is not an adventure. This is 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:01.320 a way of life. 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.440 So the toll becomes a mobility tax. 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.360 Island theorists have a name for this. It's called the 0:16:14.359 --> 0:16:19.360 two Valu effect, named after a small Polynesian island. It's 0:16:19.359 --> 0:16:23.040 meant to describe the quote unquote centrifugal tendency of islands 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.840 in archipelago states to secede from each other. 0:16:27.239 --> 0:16:31.280 There's nothing worse than having two islands next to each other. 0:16:32.239 --> 0:16:37.639 We can't stand them. This psychology has also a habit 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.720 of spilling over into politics, so the Tubono effect is 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:43.479 a way of trying to explain all this. 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.680 Islands and archipelagos are almost always pulling apart from each other. 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:54.440 Baldaquino's list went on and on, Aruba from the Dutch Antilles, 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:58.840 Anguila from Saint Kitts Nevas, Nevus from Saint Kitts Nevas, 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.720 or at least they're trying to Jamaica, then Trinidad and Tobago, 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:06.280 then Barbados from the West Indies Federation, the Island of 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:12.080 Chuck from the Federated States of Micronesia. And why is 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:13.760 Frock trying to succede. 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.320 Because it finds it it claims to find itself discriminated. 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:21.640 I mean again, much of this is psychology. So the 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:27.000 Tuvalu effect has been both preceded and followed by similar examples, 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:29.320 and there is no end in sight. 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:38.880 When we talk about reactionary politics, the word insular comes 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:43.240 up a lot. Insular comes from the Latin insula, which 0:17:43.360 --> 0:17:47.280 literally means island. The world is full of insular islands 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.240 that are centrifically spinning away from each other. And in 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:54.720 the pantheon of reactionary communities, Staten Island is the definition 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.800 the place that feels that threat, that has lost something, 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:01.800 the trash island in the archipelago. 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:05.720 I don't think people just said, well, well, we want 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:06.400 Staten Island. 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:07.240 They never even. 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:07.680 Thought about us. 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.280 Brian Leylan has been editing the newspaper The Staten Island 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.840 Advance since the nineteen nineties. And for any Staten Islanders 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.440 out there who think it's pronounced advance, he told me 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.520 it's advance. Leyline grew up on the island. He's maybe 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:24.960 the world expert on its version of the island. 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:28.720 Psyche a house was right at the beach, so we 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:30.600 used to go to the You could see it from 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.640 the street, the bridge, who you know, the bridge being built. 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:38.640 Robin Moses saw Staten Island as a gateway either if 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.720 you were coming north from New Jersey and south to 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.760 a long island to wo Manhattan and the other way around. 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.800 It's like the New York City equivalent of flyover country exactly. 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:52.520 This is what caught my ear about Godfrey Baldachino's island theory. 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:55.920 It describes Staten Island, but it also describes places that 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.240 are resentful because they feel remote, even if they're landlocked. 0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:05.880 It's the psychology of distance plus misunderstanding which leads to resentment. 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.280 I've always said that we have the sturdy little sequent 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.920 on Steff. We pat ourselves in the back that with 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:17.520 this mom and pop community, no crime, great schools. Call 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.160 it what you will. There is an intolerance here. You 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.440 can say there's racism here. There's no doubt about that, 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:25.840 and there is today the way it was then and 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:26.600 it has been my. 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.920 Whole life waylines deep understanding of Staten Island had given 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.359 him an almost prophetic understanding of American politics today. 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.359 I knew that Donald Trump was going to win the 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:39.840 election in sixteen. 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:40.320 I know it. 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:41.639 How do you know it? 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.480 Because I because I live on Staten Island, and Staten 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:50.440 Island is much like Middle America. It's not this is 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:53.920 not New York City. Here we may be called part 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:57.520 of New York City, but we we are. The mood 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:00.200 here is what the mood was in Middle America. You know, 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.880 this whole maker make America great thing for who? 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.119 And some of the same dynamics were in play with 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:11.720 the election of Trump as they were for people voting 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:12.440 for secession. 0:20:14.360 --> 0:20:20.600 I think the motives behind secession were good. I think 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:26.200 that John Malkey State Senative think he did it for 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:32.040 the purest reasons of self governance. I think the community 0:20:32.120 --> 0:20:36.640 of Staten Island looked at it another way. I've always 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:41.200 felt that when the bridge was built, it gave people 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:45.440 access to a community that was it was like virgin territory, 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:49.320 and they could come here and make a new life 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:53.680 for themselves and escape whatever they wanted to escape. And 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:57.879 they brought that attitude here with them. 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.560 What they wanted to escape was often people of color 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:05.160 and poor people. If New York City had always represented 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.840 the dream of liberalism, this was the final chance to 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:13.320 leave that dream behind, to be Staten Islanders, not New Yorkers. 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:19.160 That identity ran deeper and stronger than David Dinkins's idea 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.480 that the city was a mosaic. It was much more 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:26.400 emotionally resonant than David Goldfarb's reasoning about the facts and figures, 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:29.800 or even everyone's complaints about the dump and the voting 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:33.680 structure of New York City. And the word that expressed 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:54.280 it best was secession. We'll be back on October fifth, 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:57.400 nineteen ninety three, the vote yes and the vote no. 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:01.520 People gathered at the Staten the Island's catering hall for 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:05.840 climactic debate. It was just weeks before the vote that 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:08.880 would decide the fate of Staaten Island in New York City. 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:14.720 Him back to our forum on secession. There's an evening 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:17.680 in which we're trying to get answers to the question 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:22.480 whether or not Staten Island should secede from the City 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:23.040 of New York. 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:29.359 It was the big show, now broadcast live on Staten 0:22:29.360 --> 0:22:32.800 Island cable, and the city had sent one of its officials, 0:22:33.120 --> 0:22:36.840 a Staten Islander named Bob Federa, who argued that Staten 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:38.440 Island should not secede. 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:43.240 While some people may believe that secession represents a panacea 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:46.800 that will cure all of Staten Island's problems, I do 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:48.200 not believe it is the answer. 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:50.320 There were questions from the audience. 0:22:51.400 --> 0:22:54.280 I'd like to all right, yeah. 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:56.760 The guy intinted shades, slick back hair stands up. 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:01.119 Whether it be true or not, secession can be viewed 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:05.280 as racist by minorities for those who live here and 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:09.119 for those who don't. It will certainly add to what 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:10.400 look like white light. 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:12.400 Can somebody respond to that? 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:14.720 Federa tries to respond. 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:19.960 What I have heard within those groups is that they 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:24.960