1 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: Pushkin Ben Mata Haffer Here before we get into this episode, 2 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 1: I wanted to let you know that you can hear 3 00:00:23,759 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: all episodes of Revisionist History The Staten Island Problem ad 4 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: free right now. By signing up for Pushkin Plus, you'll 5 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: also get bonus episodes, full audiobooks, and other binges from 6 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: your favorite Pushkin hosts and authors. Plus, your support helps 7 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: independent shows like us continue making the stories you love. 8 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: Sign up and save on the Revisionist History show page 9 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. Where at Pushkin dot fm, slash plus 10 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: use the code R twenty five for twenty five percent 11 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: off an annual subscription. All right, let's get into the series. 12 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: Every morning, a Staten Island attorney named David Goldfarb used 13 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: to walk by Burrow Hall on his way to the ferry. 14 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,839 Speaker 1: Some days he'd see a short, white haired man with 15 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: big glasses waving him down. Borough. President Guy Molinary. Mollinary, 16 00:01:14,479 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 1: you might remember from episode one, was Staten Island's rabble 17 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: rouser in chief. He was constantly feuding with the Dinkins administration. 18 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:24,279 Speaker 2: He would stop and see me and ask me to 19 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,199 Speaker 2: come into his office. He liked to talk to anybody 20 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 2: and everybody. He would just call you in their office 21 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,279 Speaker 2: and would sit down and just have this. And I 22 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 2: would say, you know, I have to go to work, 23 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: I have to get a ferry, but he wants. He 24 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 2: loved to talk about it. 25 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: The it here is secession. Molinary loved to talk about 26 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: it because everyone was talking about it, and David Goldfarb 27 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: was worried. He liked being part of New York City. 28 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: He and his wife lived on the North Shore, the 29 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: most diverse part of the island, closest to Manhattan, in 30 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: a house with a pull and, depending on the season, 31 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: two pink lawn flamingos. He worked in a law firm 32 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: in Manhattan. He did not want to secede from New York, 33 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 1: and from their conversations, it seemed like Mullinary was maybe 34 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: on his side. He had not yet endorsed secession. 35 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 2: He told me in the beginning, point blank, that this 36 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: is never going to be allowed by the Assembly. He said, 37 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: you know it, say, don't worry about it. It's not 38 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 2: going to happen. 39 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: That may have been what Mullinary was saying, but something 40 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: was clearly brewing. The movement was everywhere. 41 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 3: Welcome to our special cable in the classroom feature on 42 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 3: the history of secession, produced exclusively by Staten Island Cable. 43 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: The local cable station had even made tapes for classrooms 44 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: to teach kids about secession. 45 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 3: The people know why they feel the way they do 46 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 3: because they know the facts through learning and education. 47 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: They were not exactly unbiased. 48 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 3: The future of Staten Island is being decided now, history 49 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 3: is being made. 50 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 2: Be a part of it. 51 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: David Goldfar did not want to be part of it. 52 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: What is your nightmare situation here? 53 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 2: I mean with the North Shore end up like Northern Ireland, 54 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: with some of the communities on the north Shore that 55 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: voted against it would not be included. It would be 56 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: the same situation you have network Staten Island felt or 57 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: alienated from the City of New York. Parts of the 58 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 2: North Shore would have felt alienated from the rest of 59 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 2: Staten Island. 60 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: The secessionists had to be stopped. You're listening to revisionist history. 61 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: I'm then that of Haffrey and this is the Staten 62 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: Island problem. Our series about the Staten Island secession movement 63 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: of the nineteen nineties and more broadly, about what we 64 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: do when in democracy fractures. Last episode was about the 65 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: psychology of secession who wants to leave and why? This 66 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: episode is about the people who don't want to leave 67 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: and the fight that ensued between them in the battle 68 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:21,679 Speaker 1: for Staten Island. This is episode three the two value effect. 69 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: As the secessionists marauded around the island and the cable 70 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: news station went to work brainwashing the children, the people 71 00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: on Staten Island who actually liked being part of New 72 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: York City realized they had to get organized, so Goldfarb 73 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: joined a group of like minded individuals Staten Islanders for 74 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: Unified New York Siphoony, the message of which was what 75 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: are you doing? This is going to ruin Staten Island. 76 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: It'll be fairly. 77 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 4: It'll be a free, floating debate. 78 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 5: The debaters will feel free to interrupt each other. 79 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: One spring evening in nineteen ninety three, Siphuni and the 80 00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: pro secessionists gathered at the College of Staten Island for 81 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: a debate. The space looks like a lecture hall. Four 82 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: men in suits at a table with Mike's heroes and 83 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: cokes on a table on the back. A handful of 84 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: students and concerned citizens sit in the audience, and Goldfarb 85 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: was front and center. 86 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 6: Speaking against se session will be mister David Goldfarb, an 87 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 6: attorney active in many local civic groups impacted. 88 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 7: All these people. 89 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: Siphony went toe to toe with the secessionists all around 90 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: the island again and again. The big secessionist organization was 91 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: called Vote Yes, Inc. 92 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 6: Speaking in favor of secession will be mister Dan Singletary, 93 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 6: a local artist. 94 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: Dan Singletary, the artist slash Cowboy from last episode, represented them, if. 95 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 8: We start and we build a new city of stat Noland, 96 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 8: a city for the first for the twenty first century, 97 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 8: the first city of the twenty first century. 98 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 3: We could date. 99 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: Singletary was promoting a glorious vision of what the island 100 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: could be. Goldfarb was bringing them back down to earth. 101 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: If Staten Island became an independent city, they were going 102 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: to have to take care of a whole lot of 103 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: things for themselves, like a police department or a public 104 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: school system. They'd finally have to build a jail. David 105 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: Goldfarb had a lot to say about that. 106 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 9: These are the things that you're just going to have 107 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 9: to lose, because there's absolutely no way that Staten Island's 108 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 9: going to have to be able to add this to 109 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 9: their capital budget. Because you're not going to be when 110 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 9: the police officer arrests somebody on Staten Island, they're not 111 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 9: going to be able to send that person to Rikers Island. 112 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 9: They're not going to be able to send them to 113 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 9: the lock up overnight in Brooklyn. They're going to have 114 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 9: to have a jail on Staten Island. City of New 115 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 9: York is not going to take our prisoners. These are 116 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 9: costs you're going to have to pacete. I think it's 117 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 9: going to be a major step backwards financially. 118 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: Goldfarb, it's worth noting, has argued in front of the 119 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. Singletary fired back, you have just seen. 120 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 8: A perfect example, a classic example of what's being played 121 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 8: out in what's called the politics of fear. He never 122 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 8: said one good thing. Isn't there any hope? That's not me. 123 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 8: They don't have any hope. 124 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: As I watched the tapes, I felt like Siphoony was 125 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: pointing out the obvious. Being part of New York City 126 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: was financially a great deal for a small island. Goldfarb 127 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: was saying, the future is unknown and probably worse. Singletary 128 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: was arguing that the present was known and bad, and 129 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: the future might be a lot better. 130 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 4: To either of you. 131 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 10: Guys. 132 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 4: I asked this question before. 133 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 8: I know how many agencies and commissions there are in 134 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 8: New York. 135 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: Any why din't you tell us? 136 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 9: Dan, I have no idea, and the Marion tell either. 137 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 4: But this is what's being funded. 138 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 8: This is what's being funded. 139 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: We have The last singletary holds up an ominous looking 140 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: stack of papers. 141 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 8: Okay, anyway, this is a list of anciencies and things 142 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 8: that you've never heard of, never used. Why don't we 143 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 8: start cutting this instead of these guys always saying the 144 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 8: essential services? 145 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: Okay, let me just tell you us that follow up 146 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: on his question, we may or may not be obviously. 147 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: The definition of singletary was joined by Vote Yes Inks 148 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: champion debater Robert Scammerdella you met him last episode two. 149 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: He's the attorney who grew up on Staten Island and 150 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: remembers it prebridge as an entirely different and better place. 151 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: At the debate, he sat back in his chair, arms folded, 152 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: looking a little grumpy. 153 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 11: What I do know is this that since the end 154 00:08:33,439 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 11: of World War Two, the city of New York has 155 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 11: been an economic decline. I believe that that economic decline 156 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 11: will continue because the City of New York doesn't have 157 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:47,479 Speaker 11: the people or the willingness to embark upon those policies 158 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,399 Speaker 11: that are necessary to turn that decline around. The other 159 00:08:50,439 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 11: thing I know is that Staten Island has the highest 160 00:08:52,479 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 11: per capita income of any borough in the City of 161 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,759 Speaker 11: New York. From that, I could do Staten Island will have. 162 00:08:57,719 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 6: The economic resources to survive and to be in a 163 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 6: position to make their own decisions about firemen and policemen 164 00:09:04,479 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 6: and college professors and every other decision that affects me 165 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 6: and everyone else who lives on Staten Island. 166 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 1: Like the Great American Revolution, this secession debate was really 167 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: all about taxes. Votes was saying, we'll figure it out, 168 00:09:17,199 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: and who needs all those services anyways? Goldfarb was saying, 169 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 1: you need more than you think, and it's going to 170 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: cost you. 171 00:09:24,439 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 2: And that's they are because if it's a political decision 172 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 2: and you're willing. 173 00:09:27,319 --> 00:09:29,999 Speaker 9: To pay those extra taxes, that's something that that has 174 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 9: to be considered. 175 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:32,879 Speaker 2: But let's talk about or maybe. 176 00:09:32,599 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 11: Stayed on the low way. 177 00:09:33,479 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 2: Taxes, well, they want to speculate, I'll speculate that doctors, 178 00:09:36,719 --> 00:09:38,519 Speaker 2: well all that name finish. 179 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: This spilled out way beyond the debate stage. It was 180 00:09:42,079 --> 00:09:44,479 Speaker 1: in the paper all the time. He was the hot 181 00:09:44,479 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: topic of conversation all over the island. When I sat 182 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: down with Scammerdella, he remembered this one time he and 183 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: his wife went to a wedding at the Staten, the 184 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: island's grand catering hall. 185 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 12: Go out to a social event. A wedding is sitting 186 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 12: at a table with people you don't know, uh, and 187 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 12: the Broyde cuts the cake. Was irrelevant. Here we are 188 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 12: talking about, uh, the secession. 189 00:10:06,319 --> 00:10:07,519 Speaker 1: How did your wife feel about this? 190 00:10:07,839 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 12: Well, she was very upset. We're on the way home 191 00:10:11,479 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 12: and she was like, you know, can't you just deal 192 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 12: with the secession thing when you're at these debates? You 193 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 12: got to turn a wedding into a secession debate. I 194 00:10:18,839 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 12: didn't start it, ask me the question, and. 195 00:10:21,959 --> 00:10:22,559 Speaker 11: Here we went. 196 00:10:22,719 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 12: So it was a bit of an embarrassing moment for me. 197 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 12: I guess I regret that I did what I did. 198 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 12: But the point is it was a hot button issue. 199 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 1: An interesting fact I learned about city secession movements at 200 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,719 Speaker 1: large is most of the time it's about taxes. A 201 00:10:44,839 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 1: rich area thinks, why should we pay for all of 202 00:10:46,959 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: those services? The poor people are getting. If we just 203 00:10:49,719 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: hoarded our resources, we could have it so much better here. 204 00:10:53,959 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: What's weird about Staten Island secession is that multiple studies 205 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: by New York City and the secessionists agreed that Staten 206 00:11:01,079 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: Island got more in tax revenue than it paid. The 207 00:11:05,079 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: secession movement you'd expect from New York City is that Manhattan, 208 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: with all that Wall Street money, leaves the other four burroughs, 209 00:11:11,959 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: not Staten Island. Goldfarb was raising kind of a good point. 210 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: What was the long game here? What was the tax base? 211 00:11:20,079 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: How are they going to close the dump if that 212 00:11:22,439 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: was Staten Island's most valuable asset. Also, what about the 213 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: fact that New York City controlled their water supply? So 214 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: Goldfarb I think was right, but the momentum was not 215 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: at all on his side because something else was going 216 00:11:37,959 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: on here, something hiding in plain sight, having to do 217 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:49,839 Speaker 1: with a remote Polynesian island called Tuvalu. We'll be right back. 218 00:12:01,079 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: I have this feeling that nothing holds anymore like. I 219 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: work in media, and where a career used to mean 220 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: you go work at a big newspaper or magazine, these days, 221 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: it's starting your own newsletter. Or podcast one person, maybe 222 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: two in a mic. Or take international affairs, the United Nations, NATO, 223 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,759 Speaker 1: the European Union, Brexit. There's this mass loss of faith 224 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,599 Speaker 1: in the ability of people or nations to form groups 225 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: that work for the benefit of everyone. Put another way, 226 00:12:28,439 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: we seem to be living in an era to find 227 00:12:30,479 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: by the principle that every man is an island. So 228 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: I started thinking, maybe the best way to understand the 229 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: world and the Staten island problem bedeviling it is to 230 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: speak to an authority on islands. What even is island studies? 231 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 4: Okay, so I mean I'm in Malta. 232 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 13: So Malta is itself in archipelago, right, It's actually the 233 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:54,999 Speaker 13: tent smalll lest country in the world by land area. 234 00:12:57,239 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: Godfrey Baldachino, professor of island studies, which maybe should be 235 00:13:01,599 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: called archipelago studies, and which took me down a deep 236 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 1: but very necessary rabbit hole. Join me. 237 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 13: These islands are islands plural. It is very rare that 238 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 13: you find a single island. In fact, of the world's 239 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 13: forty eighth island countries, only five are single islands. 240 00:13:24,439 --> 00:13:24,839 Speaker 1: Wow. 241 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 13: So we're talking in the plural, and therefore in some 242 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 13: of these configurations. There is a very interesting dynamic going 243 00:13:33,599 --> 00:13:35,879 Speaker 13: on within the archipelago right. 244 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: Most archipelago states have a strict hierarchy, beginning with the 245 00:13:41,319 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: mainland that dominates the other islands. New York City is 246 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: an archipelago, and it turns out that the weird thing 247 00:13:48,439 --> 00:13:51,719 Speaker 1: happening in New York in the nineties is actually entirely 248 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: in line with weird things that happen on other archipelagos 249 00:13:54,719 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 1: all the time, for instance, the trash island. 250 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,479 Speaker 4: Where you have archipelagos, the tendency has been to export 251 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 4: the waste from the mainland where the bulk of the 252 00:14:07,719 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 4: population lives, where the bulk of the waste is produced, 253 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 4: and you export it to another island. 254 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 13: In the archipelago. Sometimes you dedicate an island to waste. 255 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 13: The classic example is in the Maldives. The Maldives is 256 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 13: a fantastic tourism destination and the Indian Ocean, but it 257 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 13: also has a waste island. 258 00:14:26,359 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: Really just an entire island. That's just an entire island. 259 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, Ti La Fusi is the name. 260 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: But so what about when the waste island is inhabited 261 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: but by a political minority and a population minority. 262 00:14:38,239 --> 00:14:42,239 Speaker 13: The temptation to use it to dump is massive. It's 263 00:14:42,239 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 13: not necessarily municipal waste. That could be human waste. Convicts, 264 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,639 Speaker 13: for example, prisons islands have tended to be associated with prisons, 265 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 13: with quarantine stations, with leappar stations. 266 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: Right Saten Island had all those things. 267 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 4: Okay, there you are. 268 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: Australia was Britain's prison island. Tasmania was Australia's prison island, 269 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: and then off of Tasmania there were even smaller islands 270 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: than we're their prison island. It's all islands, all the 271 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: way down, islands putting things they don't want on other islands, 272 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: escaping to yet further islands. One of the ways to 273 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: stop that island cascade is theoretically a bridge like what 274 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:25,519 Speaker 1: Staten Island got. 275 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 13: Bridges create what is called distance decay, right, so the 276 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 13: islands have become closer. 277 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: The bridge was finally supposed to tie the islands of 278 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: New York together, but this bridge became yet another problem 279 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,119 Speaker 1: for Staten Island, not least of all because of its toll. 280 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 13: Where After there are tolls, the argument goes, especially from 281 00:15:48,239 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 13: the island, there's point of view, they're not crossing over 282 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 13: to go on a holiday. 283 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 4: They're not tourists. 284 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 14: You know. 285 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 13: Sometimes I have to cross over for work, for school, 286 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 13: visiting relatives. So this is not an adventure. This is 287 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 13: a way of life. 288 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 4: So the toll becomes a mobility tax. 289 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: Island theorists have a name for this. It's called the 290 00:16:14,359 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: two Valu effect, named after a small Polynesian island. It's 291 00:16:19,359 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: meant to describe the quote unquote centrifugal tendency of islands 292 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: in archipelago states to secede from each other. 293 00:16:27,239 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 13: There's nothing worse than having two islands next to each other. 294 00:16:32,239 --> 00:16:37,639 Speaker 13: We can't stand them. This psychology has also a habit 295 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 13: of spilling over into politics, so the Tubono effect is 296 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,479 Speaker 13: a way of trying to explain all this. 297 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: Islands and archipelagos are almost always pulling apart from each other. 298 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: Baldaquino's list went on and on, Aruba from the Dutch Antilles, 299 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: Anguila from Saint Kitts Nevas, Nevus from Saint Kitts Nevas, 300 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: or at least they're trying to Jamaica, then Trinidad and Tobago, 301 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: then Barbados from the West Indies Federation, the Island of 302 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: Chuck from the Federated States of Micronesia. And why is 303 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: Frock trying to succede. 304 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 13: Because it finds it it claims to find itself discriminated. 305 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 13: I mean again, much of this is psychology. So the 306 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 13: Tuvalu effect has been both preceded and followed by similar examples, 307 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 13: and there is no end in sight. 308 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: When we talk about reactionary politics, the word insular comes 309 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: up a lot. Insular comes from the Latin insula, which 310 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: literally means island. The world is full of insular islands 311 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: that are centrifically spinning away from each other. And in 312 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: the pantheon of reactionary communities, Staten Island is the definition 313 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: the place that feels that threat, that has lost something, 314 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: the trash island in the archipelago. 315 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 14: I don't think people just said, well, well, we want 316 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 14: Staten Island. 317 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 7: They never even. 318 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 14: Thought about us. 319 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: Brian Leylan has been editing the newspaper The Staten Island 320 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: Advance since the nineteen nineties. And for any Staten Islanders 321 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: out there who think it's pronounced advance, he told me 322 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: it's advance. Leyline grew up on the island. He's maybe 323 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: the world expert on its version of the island. 324 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 14: Psyche a house was right at the beach, so we 325 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 14: used to go to the You could see it from 326 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 14: the street, the bridge, who you know, the bridge being built. 327 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 14: Robin Moses saw Staten Island as a gateway either if 328 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 14: you were coming north from New Jersey and south to 329 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 14: a long island to wo Manhattan and the other way around. 330 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: It's like the New York City equivalent of flyover country exactly. 331 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: This is what caught my ear about Godfrey Baldachino's island theory. 332 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: It describes Staten Island, but it also describes places that 333 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: are resentful because they feel remote, even if they're landlocked. 334 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: It's the psychology of distance plus misunderstanding which leads to resentment. 335 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 14: I've always said that we have the sturdy little sequent 336 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 14: on Steff. We pat ourselves in the back that with 337 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 14: this mom and pop community, no crime, great schools. Call 338 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 14: it what you will. There is an intolerance here. You 339 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 14: can say there's racism here. There's no doubt about that, 340 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 14: and there is today the way it was then and 341 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 14: it has been my. 342 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: Whole life waylines deep understanding of Staten Island had given 343 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: him an almost prophetic understanding of American politics today. 344 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 14: I knew that Donald Trump was going to win the 345 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 14: election in sixteen. 346 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 8: I know it. 347 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: How do you know it? 348 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 14: Because I because I live on Staten Island, and Staten 349 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 14: Island is much like Middle America. It's not this is 350 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 14: not New York City. Here we may be called part 351 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 14: of New York City, but we we are. The mood 352 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 14: here is what the mood was in Middle America. You know, 353 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 14: this whole maker make America great thing for who? 354 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: And some of the same dynamics were in play with 355 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: the election of Trump as they were for people voting 356 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 1: for secession. 357 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 14: I think the motives behind secession were good. I think 358 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 14: that John Malkey State Senative think he did it for 359 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 14: the purest reasons of self governance. I think the community 360 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 14: of Staten Island looked at it another way. I've always 361 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 14: felt that when the bridge was built, it gave people 362 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 14: access to a community that was it was like virgin territory, 363 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 14: and they could come here and make a new life 364 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 14: for themselves and escape whatever they wanted to escape. And 365 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 14: they brought that attitude here with them. 366 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: What they wanted to escape was often people of color 367 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: and poor people. If New York City had always represented 368 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: the dream of liberalism, this was the final chance to 369 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: leave that dream behind, to be Staten Islanders, not New Yorkers. 370 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: That identity ran deeper and stronger than David Dinkins's idea 371 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: that the city was a mosaic. It was much more 372 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: emotionally resonant than David Goldfarb's reasoning about the facts and figures, 373 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: or even everyone's complaints about the dump and the voting 374 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: structure of New York City. And the word that expressed 375 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: it best was secession. We'll be back on October fifth, 376 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, the vote yes and the vote no. 377 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: People gathered at the Staten the Island's catering hall for 378 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: climactic debate. It was just weeks before the vote that 379 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: would decide the fate of Staaten Island in New York City. 380 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 15: Him back to our forum on secession. There's an evening 381 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 15: in which we're trying to get answers to the question 382 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 15: whether or not Staten Island should secede from the City 383 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 15: of New York. 384 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: It was the big show, now broadcast live on Staten 385 00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: Island cable, and the city had sent one of its officials, 386 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: a Staten Islander named Bob Federa, who argued that Staten 387 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: Island should not secede. 388 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 16: While some people may believe that secession represents a panacea 389 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 16: that will cure all of Staten Island's problems, I do 390 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 16: not believe it is the answer. 391 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: There were questions from the audience. 392 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 7: I'd like to all right, yeah. 393 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: The guy intinted shades, slick back hair stands up. 394 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 17: Whether it be true or not, secession can be viewed 395 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 17: as racist by minorities for those who live here and 396 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 17: for those who don't. It will certainly add to what 397 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 17: look like white light. 398 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 7: Can somebody respond to that? 399 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: Federa tries to respond. 400 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 16: What I have heard within those groups is that they 401 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 16: attach on to groups in the other boroughs because some 402 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 16: of the island representatives will not even open the door today. 403 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 16: In many ways, the minority communities will lose that connection 404 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 16: with the rest of the city, the connection in which 405 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 16: they really see the source of their power, and secession 406 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 16: ultimately would cut that power. 407 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: This question seems like it should be a grand slam 408 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 1: for Federa, but actually he's in a very tight spot 409 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: as a representative of the first black mayor of New 410 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: York City. On the one hand, a lot of the 411 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: Dinkins administration seem to think that Yes Secession was racist. 412 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, they couldn't be seen to 413 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: be playing the race card all the time. They were 414 00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: caught between a rock and a hard place. Meanwhile, Dan 415 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: Singletary and the Vote Yes crew kept bringing the discussion 416 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: back to how much better Staten Island would be without 417 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: the big city looming over it. 418 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 8: What will happen is that these regulations that find small 419 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 8: business is when somebody drops a stick of gum or 420 00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 8: or gum wrapper, and five minutes later an inspector comes 421 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 8: by and gives them a very large ticket. That will 422 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 8: not happen in a new city of Staten Island. 423 00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: It didn't help that the anti secession hast had tremendous 424 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: narc energy. 425 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 10: Frankly, if you drop a stick of gum wrapper on 426 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 10: the sidewalk, I hope to give you a ticket worth 427 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 10: about one thousand dollars. 428 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: The audience was starting to get frustrated with the Vote 429 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: No people. 430 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 10: The things that we have to say are not necessarily 431 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 10: popular things. Now, if castor oil is something that's unpleasant 432 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 10: to take, sometimes it's necessary. And this was supposed to 433 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 10: not be a popularity contest. This was supposed to be 434 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 10: a frank and open exchange. So I'm asking you to 435 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 10: let's just get back to what this forum was supposed 436 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 10: to originally be about. 437 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: It was down to closing statements from vote. Now, are we. 438 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 15: Going to believe that after we leave the City of 439 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 15: New York there's going to be a paradise here on 440 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 15: Staten Island? 441 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: And vote yes? 442 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 8: Oh, will you trust your friends and neighbors and the 443 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 8: people in Staten Island or you trust the people five 444 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 8: miles overseas. 445 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: The people overseas. It was facts and figures versus the 446 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: two valu effect. There was no chance. 447 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 15: And now I would ask you to raise your hands. 448 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: The moderator from Staten Island Cable took a stropol just 449 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: to get a sneak peek of what was going to 450 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 1: happen on the day of the vote, less than a 451 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: month away. 452 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 15: All of you who are in favor of seceding from 453 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 15: the City of New York, would you please raise your hands. 454 00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: All of the hands you can see on the screen 455 00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: go up. 456 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 16: Thank you. 457 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 15: All those opposed to seceding from the City of New York, 458 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 15: please raise your hands. 459 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: The vote. No guys raised their hands, and no one else. 460 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 7: Larry can ask no, Mark. 461 00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 10: I hope that was definitive enough for you. 462 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: It was definitive enough for someone else too, Staten Island 463 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: borough president Guy Molinary. He was a very canny politician, 464 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: and yet he had not come out in favor of secession, 465 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: which I think mattered. How real could all this have 466 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: been if the borough president for Staten Island wasn't even 467 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: behind it. 468 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 7: The only one was lukewarm was Guy Molinary. 469 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: This is Bob Stenari, if you're keeping count, that's the 470 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: third Bob in this episode. He was a Staten Island 471 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: assemblyman at the time. 472 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 7: For some reason, you know why, it wasn't his issue. 473 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 7: I mean, I'm telling you it wasn't his issue, so 474 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 7: he never really got behind it. 475 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: Sterrenari and Millinary were not friends. At one point. Sterrenari 476 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: left the island and started a hot dog business in Manhattan. 477 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: When he tried to come back to run for office again, 478 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: Mollinary wasn't having it. As The New York Times. 479 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 18: Reported, he never explained what it was that I ever 480 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 18: did that made him. 481 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 7: So against me personally and politically. 482 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: The quote is we threw him out of office and 483 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: got him off of Sadn Island, and we don't want 484 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: him back. 485 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 7: Yeah. Nice. 486 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 18: You know, there's a lot of Donald Trump and the 487 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 18: guy Molinary's style of politics, so they're very dominating, and 488 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 18: they're intolerant of people who disagree with them, absolutely intolerant. 489 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: Moullinary saw where things were headed with secession, and I 490 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: think he saw it as an opportunity to get something 491 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: else he wanted even more. Eight days after that forum, 492 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: he finally issued a statement on his position. Quote after 493 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: one hundred years of marriage to Manhattan Queen's Brooklyn and 494 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: the Bronx, the Borough of Staten Island is seeking a divorce. 495 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: We neither love, honor nor care to obey the dictates 496 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 1: of a city administration which treats us unfairly and remains 497 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: unresponsive to our needs. I support secession wholeheartedly end quote. 498 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: It was a huge boost, and this spirit of secession 499 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: was spreading. He was getting national media attention. Queens had 500 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: been inspired by Staten Island to start their own secession movement. 501 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: I found a letter in the municipal archives from a 502 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: Dinkin's person who said a close associate of New York's 503 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: governor told him that if secession got a strong yes 504 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: vote on Staten Island. They would have to quote, take 505 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: a broad look at the governance of all five boroughs, 506 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: not just the issue of Staten Island. In the chess 507 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: match between Staten Island and New York City, Maul and 508 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: Airy had just played a crucial move, one that was 509 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: going to get Staten Island everything it wanted, but not 510 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: the way anyone expected. The fate of the New York 511 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: City archipelago hung in the balance. On November two, nineteen 512 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: ninety three, the voters would decide it. But before the election, 513 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: we have to make a brief detour to a place 514 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: called shoolinlann. I hear a knock on the studio door. 515 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 9: I open it and there's five dudes out there, and 516 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 9: then not smiling. 517 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 4: People like where are you from. 518 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 5: So I used to say, if I tell you, I 519 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 5: have to kill you and you're like wine, and then 520 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 5: I'm like Staten Island. He took the whole mythology that 521 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 5: was in the movies and he appropriated it to his 522 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 5: current conditions of a black man living in Staten Island 523 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 5: doing battle in this game call rap against the music industry. 524 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: That's coming up in our next episode. The Staten Island 525 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: problem is written and reported by me Ben Mattapaffrey. It 526 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: was produced by Lucy Sullivan with Nina Bird Lawrence. Our 527 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: editor is Karen Schakerji, Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. 528 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Sam Russick, sound design and mastering by 529 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: Jake Gorsky. Original music by Stellwagen, Symfinet, Luis Garra and 530 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: Jake Gorsky. Special thanks to Todd Reynolds for his track 531 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: the Solution from the album how Borough, and to the 532 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: College of Staten Island and the New York City Municipal 533 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: Archives for all of the amazing tape, and to David 534 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: Schleiker for sharing his expertise on municipal secessions with me. 535 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: And thanks, of course to Malcolm Gladwell. I'm Ben Mattapaffrey.