WEBVTT - Frisky Business: Olivia Nuzzi, Ryan Lizza, and Journalistic Ethics 0:00:15.564 --> 0:00:16.044 Pushkin. 0:00:26.364 --> 0:00:29.684 Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making better decisions. 0:00:29.804 --> 0:00:32.004 I'm Maria Kannakova and I'm Nate Silver. 0:00:32.844 --> 0:00:36.924 Today on the show, we have an interesting heiring of topics. 0:00:36.964 --> 0:00:41.564 We're going to talk about the a disease of holiday travel, planes, 0:00:41.604 --> 0:00:44.084 trays and automobiles. I'm a big plain guy. It turns 0:00:44.084 --> 0:00:47.524 out Maria a little more skeptical. And then speaking of disease, 0:00:49.044 --> 0:00:52.204 the journalist Olivia Nitzi was accused by fellow double z 0:00:52.444 --> 0:00:57.644 Ryan Lizza, her ex fiancee, of various crimes against journalism. 0:00:57.724 --> 0:01:00.124 We will discuss those in an entertaining fashion. 0:01:00.324 --> 0:01:04.124 Yes, some journalistic ethics coming right up. But first, yeah, 0:01:04.244 --> 0:01:08.364 let's talk about Thanksgiving travel as everyone plans their travel 0:01:08.444 --> 0:01:17.524 for the holidays are coming up. Ny you traveled by plane. 0:01:17.684 --> 0:01:23.004 You went to Kansas City, and I had Thanksgiving in Boston, 0:01:23.044 --> 0:01:26.044 where I'm from with my family. So I had all 0:01:26.084 --> 0:01:28.764 sorts of options, and you know what, I actually thought 0:01:28.804 --> 0:01:32.724 about all of them, because, as we talked about last year, 0:01:32.764 --> 0:01:35.644 around this time, it can be really really tricky to 0:01:35.844 --> 0:01:40.604 optimize holiday travel. So going to Boston is something that 0:01:40.604 --> 0:01:42.844 you would think is super easy, right, Boston and New 0:01:42.924 --> 0:01:45.284 York like what three and a half hours, four hours, 0:01:45.324 --> 0:01:49.564 like pretty pretty close. Unfortunately, that's really not the case. 0:01:50.084 --> 0:01:52.444 So you have a few options, right. You can drive, 0:01:52.684 --> 0:01:56.284 so that involves a lot of risk reward trade offs 0:01:56.764 --> 0:02:01.084 car rental and traffic. You can fly obviously, whether you 0:02:01.124 --> 0:02:03.284 can be delayed. We know that there have been a 0:02:03.324 --> 0:02:06.404 lot of issues with flights in the last few months, 0:02:06.684 --> 0:02:09.604 so that's the issue there, and train seems to be 0:02:09.604 --> 0:02:13.644 the safest option. However, my last train ride to Boston, 0:02:13.724 --> 0:02:18.604 Nate took seven and a half hours because within half 0:02:18.644 --> 0:02:21.764 an hour of leaving Penn Station, New York, we hit 0:02:21.844 --> 0:02:24.524 something and then the train couldn't go above like forty 0:02:24.524 --> 0:02:26.204 five miles an hour for the rest of the trip. 0:02:26.764 --> 0:02:28.564 But they didn't tell us that. They just kept saying 0:02:28.564 --> 0:02:30.884 that we'd be making up the time, and we never did. 0:02:31.244 --> 0:02:34.244 And you want to guess how much two train tickets 0:02:34.284 --> 0:02:37.964 were to Boston for Thanksgiving weekend? I bought these back 0:02:38.004 --> 0:02:41.324 in September. Luckily about refundable ones, and I did get refunded. 0:02:42.004 --> 0:02:46.204 Think about think about holiday travel Thanksgiving this weekend? How 0:02:46.244 --> 0:02:48.684 much just normal as seloitics, I. 0:02:48.724 --> 0:02:52.004 Say, like seven hundred dollars one way or something. 0:02:53.324 --> 0:02:54.284 You're very close. 0:02:54.364 --> 0:03:01.484 So for two people, the tickets were seventeen hundred dollars together, 0:03:02.284 --> 0:03:07.724 and that is just absolutely ludicrous, right, So you have 0:03:07.924 --> 0:03:09.084 all of these different things. 0:03:09.484 --> 0:03:09.804 Pay it. 0:03:11.364 --> 0:03:13.564 I did, but I did it as a backup, so 0:03:13.564 --> 0:03:17.564 it's yes, it was so. 0:03:17.884 --> 0:03:18.644 They can charge it. 0:03:18.684 --> 0:03:21.564 They're doing it because they can, and they do it 0:03:21.604 --> 0:03:25.684 because they know that there is really no viable good options. 0:03:25.724 --> 0:03:27.764 So we also had a car rental, which, by the way, 0:03:27.884 --> 0:03:30.084 was like a fraction of the cost. Right the car 0:03:30.124 --> 0:03:33.044 rental for five days was like five hundred dollars something 0:03:33.084 --> 0:03:37.364 like that. Not an insignificant amount of money, but like, fine, 0:03:37.404 --> 0:03:39.444 you know you're renting a car four or five days. 0:03:39.764 --> 0:03:42.764 Now the car rental, though you have your own issues 0:03:42.804 --> 0:03:45.444 one will you actually have a car. I don't know 0:03:45.444 --> 0:03:47.844 if we've talked about this on the show, but rental 0:03:47.844 --> 0:03:50.524 cars are really weird when it comes to reservations. You 0:03:50.564 --> 0:03:53.444 make a reservation, but unlike a restaurant where you make 0:03:53.444 --> 0:03:56.124 a reservation and there's a table waiting for you, you can 0:03:56.124 --> 0:03:58.964 make a rental car reservation. You get there and there 0:03:59.004 --> 0:04:01.444 ain't any cars and they say, yeah, sorry, we don't 0:04:01.484 --> 0:04:03.684 have any cars left right now, but you can wait 0:04:03.844 --> 0:04:05.404 I've had to wait for around. 0:04:05.164 --> 0:04:09.764 Four capitalist economy. Do you want price fixing, I'd be 0:04:09.764 --> 0:04:11.044 most capitalists don't like that. 0:04:11.804 --> 0:04:13.244 No, no, but like what they think. 0:04:13.324 --> 0:04:16.604 So we were booking tickets to Michigan to see my 0:04:16.724 --> 0:04:22.444 family for Christmas, and yeah, from New York in coach, 0:04:22.924 --> 0:04:25.004 it's like nine hundred bucks or something, right, and like 0:04:26.084 --> 0:04:29.644 they figured out that, like when you have people who 0:04:29.644 --> 0:04:31.844 are desperate to get home for something, right, you can 0:04:31.924 --> 0:04:33.644 charge a lot of money and those lights will be full. 0:04:33.964 --> 0:04:38.324 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, an Asella knows that it has kind 0:04:38.324 --> 0:04:42.204 of this cornered market because weather in New England can 0:04:42.244 --> 0:04:44.124 be really bad, right, and if you need to be 0:04:44.204 --> 0:04:46.164 home for Thanksgiving. So we had flights as well, which 0:04:46.164 --> 0:04:47.884 were much cheaper. By the way, we had a you 0:04:47.924 --> 0:04:52.244 know Delta shuttle reserved which you can cancel anytime, which 0:04:52.284 --> 0:04:55.044 were you know, half the price of the trade. But 0:04:55.684 --> 0:04:59.244 you also have the notion of like what if it snows, right, 0:04:59.444 --> 0:05:01.284 what if the weather's bat what if I get stuck 0:05:01.324 --> 0:05:04.604 on either side cars? You have a lot of control, 0:05:04.684 --> 0:05:07.164 And we had a great smooth trip there, but it 0:05:07.164 --> 0:05:09.364 took us seven hours to get back and I was 0:05:09.524 --> 0:05:12.764 actually wondering, you know, as we were driving. Obviously there 0:05:13.324 --> 0:05:15.244 is a factor of just more people on the road. 0:05:15.484 --> 0:05:17.244 But I wonder if there are more accidents around the 0:05:17.284 --> 0:05:19.484 holidays because there are more bad drivers on the roads 0:05:19.484 --> 0:05:22.284 who don't usually drive, but who rent cars for this occasion. 0:05:22.324 --> 0:05:25.804 I don't know what they're doing. I'm assuming that that's. 0:05:26.724 --> 0:05:31.084 You have this amateur hour issue with everything. Right on 0:05:31.124 --> 0:05:34.044 the train there's someone with an order amount of luggage. 0:05:34.124 --> 0:05:38.724 And at the airport, right, they're fucking kids everywhere, right, 0:05:38.804 --> 0:05:39.524 they slow. 0:05:39.404 --> 0:05:40.724 Things down the scarity line. 0:05:42.004 --> 0:05:45.284 Look, the answer is that from New York to DC, 0:05:45.764 --> 0:05:48.564 you take the train, New York to Boston, you fly. 0:05:50.244 --> 0:05:52.004 You won't know why you fly, Maria a couple of reasons. 0:05:52.004 --> 0:05:52.684 Why do you find it? 0:05:52.924 --> 0:05:55.684 First of all, just look at the way that the 0:05:55.804 --> 0:05:58.964 Eastern Seaboard works. Right, We're actually pretty close here in 0:05:59.004 --> 0:06:01.844 New York as the crow files to Boston. 0:06:02.044 --> 0:06:04.084 Right, You've got a. 0:06:04.044 --> 0:06:09.404 Loop all the way around through fucking New Britain, Conneticut 0:06:09.564 --> 0:06:11.844 and New Canaan, Connecticut and all these places. It's like 0:06:11.884 --> 0:06:15.844 not even really optimize the train track, right, but like 0:06:15.884 --> 0:06:19.004 you better like go if you have to, fucking Providence 0:06:19.044 --> 0:06:19.764 and stuff like that. 0:06:19.844 --> 0:06:22.204 Right, It is true. It is true. It is not 0:06:22.404 --> 0:06:25.044 very efficient. You follow the coastline, and the coastline is 0:06:25.164 --> 0:06:26.364 very loopy, so the. 0:06:26.324 --> 0:06:29.564 Flight in the air is like literally about thirty or 0:06:29.564 --> 0:06:32.844 forty minutes from New York to Boston, right, So that 0:06:32.884 --> 0:06:33.724 comes apairical question. 0:06:33.764 --> 0:06:34.764 By the way, not thinking about. 0:06:34.564 --> 0:06:38.484 Boston, Boston, I'm not a big Boston guy, but I 0:06:38.524 --> 0:06:42.484 will say the most underrated airport in the country is 0:06:42.484 --> 0:06:45.764 Boston Logan Airport. It's absolutely you go through that big 0:06:45.764 --> 0:06:48.004 dig and things like that, right, yeah. 0:06:47.884 --> 0:06:50.044 No, and it actually it makes a huge difference. I 0:06:50.084 --> 0:06:52.524 love Logan now and Logan is now a new airport. 0:06:52.564 --> 0:06:55.324 There's actually you can go to Legal Seafood and Logan. 0:06:55.844 --> 0:06:57.044 You can get clam Showder. 0:06:57.204 --> 0:07:00.324 Some clam Showder have a Samuel Adam. The ship sponsors 0:07:00.364 --> 0:07:03.364 have a Samuel Adams logger. Depending on the time of day. 0:07:03.524 --> 0:07:07.004 Absolutely can now it's you know, you're you're absolutely right 0:07:07.044 --> 0:07:09.884 that when you're thinking about just the time and the 0:07:10.044 --> 0:07:14.364 chances of like the maximization of time, I totally agree 0:07:14.404 --> 0:07:16.364 that the plane is a way to go. The reason 0:07:16.364 --> 0:07:19.204 why I don't always fly is because i've been so 0:07:19.644 --> 0:07:21.844 when I go to Boston, it's always around the holidays, 0:07:21.924 --> 0:07:27.284 right Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's times when New England weather 0:07:27.364 --> 0:07:30.124 can be very unpredictable. And that's so when you're doing 0:07:30.124 --> 0:07:33.164 this calculus, obviously you have, as with any decision, you 0:07:33.244 --> 0:07:36.404 have a bunch of different variables. Right, you have the time, 0:07:36.484 --> 0:07:40.044 which is huge like maximizing time. You have cost obviously, 0:07:40.044 --> 0:07:42.604 which is important, but you also have what are what 0:07:42.684 --> 0:07:45.404 is the risk that I'm going to get there when 0:07:45.404 --> 0:07:48.844 I need to get there right versus not? And with 0:07:49.044 --> 0:07:51.364 the with the plane, you know, with the Delta shuttle, 0:07:51.404 --> 0:07:53.724 which is kind of the most efficient way to get 0:07:53.884 --> 0:07:58.284 to Boston. I have had canceled flights and delayed flights 0:07:58.324 --> 0:08:02.164 not infrequently because the weather gets really shitty this time 0:08:02.204 --> 0:08:04.964 of year. So that I think is the major risk. 0:08:05.404 --> 0:08:07.804 Like let's assume the price is the same with everything, 0:08:08.124 --> 0:08:11.364 but still when it comes to airport travel, you also 0:08:11.404 --> 0:08:13.404 have to budget the time of how do I get 0:08:13.404 --> 0:08:15.124 to the airport? When do I get to the airport? 0:08:15.204 --> 0:08:18.124 Yeah, people people are a little phobic about their little 0:08:18.204 --> 0:08:20.844 nitty about some of the airport stuff. 0:08:21.244 --> 0:08:22.444 I hope our listeners know. 0:08:22.404 --> 0:08:27.444 What nitty means, right, your risk averse and neurotic. It's 0:08:27.444 --> 0:08:31.684 a poker term for someone who like folds too much? Right, oh, 0:08:31.804 --> 0:08:34.204 or just kind of you know Alan Kessler, if you 0:08:34.244 --> 0:08:37.684 know Alan Kessler and the poker Seine's a knit for example. 0:08:38.044 --> 0:08:40.844 That was very inside baseball. But I love it, Natam 0:08:40.884 --> 0:08:42.204 here for you don't. 0:08:42.004 --> 0:08:44.044 Need there's actually a silver bolt in my Newslayer. There's like, 0:08:44.084 --> 0:08:46.124 when do you get to the airport calculator? People are 0:08:46.244 --> 0:08:49.444 very nitty about airports stuff, right. The fact is you 0:08:49.444 --> 0:08:51.804 can cut it pretty close if you want. You know, 0:08:52.364 --> 0:08:56.204 the surveillance state has probably rubbed us savol our, privacy 0:08:56.204 --> 0:09:00.364 and dignity. However, it does lead to substantially faster lines 0:09:00.404 --> 0:09:04.084 at the TSA check in, so realizes the benefit from that. 0:09:05.844 --> 0:09:08.524 You know, there's a silver lining. You get through security faster. 0:09:08.724 --> 0:09:10.484 Sure, you gave up all your privacy. 0:09:11.004 --> 0:09:14.124 Yes, look it's a trade off. But like also like 0:09:14.524 --> 0:09:17.924 when you have those weather delays, the amcracks often aren't 0:09:18.004 --> 0:09:19.524 much better. 0:09:20.204 --> 0:09:22.804 This is true, but they do get there right end 0:09:22.804 --> 0:09:24.884 of the day. It was just, you know, a choice 0:09:24.884 --> 0:09:28.204 between bad alternatives. But we both made it. We both 0:09:28.244 --> 0:09:32.244 made it. Back Nate, when our listeners try to maximize 0:09:32.244 --> 0:09:36.324 their holiday travel for you know, the upcoming holidays and 0:09:36.404 --> 0:09:39.324 for future years, Obviously some of what we talked about 0:09:39.364 --> 0:09:41.244 is New England specific, but I think a lot of 0:09:41.244 --> 0:09:44.444 it is advice that you can kind of take no 0:09:44.484 --> 0:09:47.764 matter where your traveling, which is obviously, look at the time, 0:09:48.204 --> 0:09:50.804 look at the cost, look at your risk of actually 0:09:50.804 --> 0:09:53.604 getting there versus getting stuck, and how important it is 0:09:53.644 --> 0:09:55.484 to you to get there at a specific time, at 0:09:55.484 --> 0:09:57.724 a specific day, Because if you can afford to be 0:09:57.804 --> 0:10:00.444 delayed a little bit, then that's it. That's a totally 0:10:00.444 --> 0:10:03.004 different story. And what you pointed out, Nate, I think 0:10:03.044 --> 0:10:05.324 is also important, which is you don't have to be 0:10:05.364 --> 0:10:06.444 that nitty these are all right. 0:10:06.524 --> 0:10:09.364 People miss this a lot when they are calculating their. 0:10:10.004 --> 0:10:14.284 Flight or travel options. Right, how critical? How much and 0:10:14.324 --> 0:10:15.204 critical is it. 0:10:15.124 --> 0:10:18.484 For you to be late or on time? I should say, right. 0:10:18.524 --> 0:10:21.844 Yeah, that's a really important question that people really do 0:10:21.884 --> 0:10:23.884 not ask themselves often enough. They're like, oh, I don't 0:10:23.884 --> 0:10:26.204 want to be late, but how like how close are 0:10:26.284 --> 0:10:27.324 you pushing your travel? 0:10:27.524 --> 0:10:27.684 Right? 0:10:27.724 --> 0:10:29.404 Like, if you need to be there by Thursday and 0:10:29.444 --> 0:10:32.404 you're traveling on Wednesday, right, Like you have a little 0:10:32.444 --> 0:10:36.924 bit of a window of flexibility if you're traveling Thursday morning. Obviously, Yeah, okay, 0:10:37.084 --> 0:10:40.204 you're fucked, you're delayed. So it's one of these things 0:10:40.244 --> 0:10:41.644 where you do need to. 0:10:41.564 --> 0:10:42.084 Figure it out. 0:10:42.404 --> 0:10:46.324 There's a cascade of obligations, and how important your delay 0:10:46.404 --> 0:10:48.844 is changes depending on what you're doing. 0:10:49.764 --> 0:10:50.644 The one other. 0:10:50.444 --> 0:10:52.924 Piece of advice I will give to our listeners is 0:10:53.484 --> 0:10:55.684 if you are in the airport they have over sold 0:10:55.684 --> 0:10:58.884 the flight and they are asking for volunteers, and you 0:10:58.964 --> 0:11:02.524 are actually in a position to volunteer, do not accept 0:11:02.604 --> 0:11:06.364 their offer because they will be willing to up it 0:11:07.044 --> 0:11:09.844 to a pretty significant amount, and if no one takes 0:11:09.844 --> 0:11:12.284 it within the first like ten minutes, they start panicking. 0:11:12.524 --> 0:11:14.844 So then you can, like if they're offering five hundred dollars, 0:11:15.084 --> 0:11:16.764 walk up to them and be like, I'll do it 0:11:16.764 --> 0:11:19.404 for fifteen hundred and first class tickets or whatever it is, 0:11:20.164 --> 0:11:22.364 and they'll they'll say yes most of the time. So 0:11:22.404 --> 0:11:24.604 that's just a little travel hack for when your plans 0:11:24.684 --> 0:11:26.044 are a little bit flexible. 0:11:26.124 --> 0:11:28.524 Applying me is it like a prisoner's dilemma? Though, like that, 0:11:28.684 --> 0:11:30.764 like I will undercut you. So we're saying that like 0:11:31.724 --> 0:11:35.884 passengers should collude, should collude to demand more? 0:11:36.484 --> 0:11:37.084 Yeah, we wave. 0:11:37.164 --> 0:11:41.684 The airline was like, fuck you, you're all grounded. Motherfuckers. You're grounding, 0:11:41.724 --> 0:11:43.284 You're making us pay too much. 0:11:43.364 --> 0:11:45.924 This is this is something that an airline may do. 0:11:47.164 --> 0:11:51.164 But but yeah, it makes this issue. I can be 0:11:51.244 --> 0:11:51.644 taken off. 0:11:52.764 --> 0:11:54.444 This is true, This is true. The game theory of 0:11:54.484 --> 0:11:55.924 this can get complicated. 0:12:04.484 --> 0:12:17.244 And we'll be right back after this break, Nate. 0:12:17.404 --> 0:12:22.164 Let's let's get down and dirty and talk some even 0:12:22.164 --> 0:12:25.324 more inside baseball, inside New York but not just New 0:12:25.404 --> 0:12:30.204 York DC, inside media and inside the political just realm 0:12:30.284 --> 0:12:36.524 of political reporting drama with the scandal the right, is 0:12:36.564 --> 0:12:40.684 there an US there around Olivia Nutzi, Ryan Lizza, lots 0:12:40.724 --> 0:12:44.204 of people Rfkjune, you are lots of people implicated, Nate. 0:12:44.244 --> 0:12:46.324 Do you want to give a little breakdown for our 0:12:46.364 --> 0:12:48.364 listeners who might not be aware of everything, or do 0:12:48.364 --> 0:12:48.964 you want me to do it? 0:12:49.004 --> 0:12:51.164 Yeah? You want to take turns? I don't know. 0:12:51.204 --> 0:12:54.444 Maria all right, Well, I can give you a little 0:12:54.524 --> 0:12:57.604 bit of background, which is that Olivia Nutzi was a 0:12:57.604 --> 0:13:01.444 star political reporter at New York Magazine who was known 0:13:01.564 --> 0:13:05.124 for her voice, for her access, for her scoops, and 0:13:05.204 --> 0:13:11.364 her scoops involved great interviews with people like Mark Sanford 0:13:11.564 --> 0:13:17.684 and RFK Junior. She became engaged to Ryan Liza, who 0:13:17.844 --> 0:13:21.764 used to be a New Yorker writer. He was fired 0:13:21.804 --> 0:13:26.124 from The New Yorker for alleged sexual misconduct I guess, 0:13:27.244 --> 0:13:31.324 and he was engaged to Olivia Nutzi. Then it turned 0:13:31.364 --> 0:13:36.724 out that Olivia was having we don't know, it's still 0:13:36.804 --> 0:13:39.204 unclear if it was ever physical or emotional anyway, and 0:13:39.204 --> 0:13:42.964 improper relationship with one of her subjects while she was 0:13:43.004 --> 0:13:49.604 covering the elections RFK Junior and she and Ryan Lizza 0:13:50.004 --> 0:13:53.884 split up. She was dismissed from New York magazine. She 0:13:54.364 --> 0:13:57.364 apparently then immediately started working on a book, which has 0:13:57.484 --> 0:14:00.684 just come out. She was hired by Vanity Fair, and 0:14:00.924 --> 0:14:04.564 Ryan Lizza himself launched a series of sub stack posts 0:14:04.604 --> 0:14:09.524 where he revealed that her alleged improprieties when it came 0:14:09.524 --> 0:14:14.804 to political reporting went far beyond RFK Junior, including an 0:14:14.844 --> 0:14:19.124 actual physical affair with one of her other subjects, Mark Sandford. 0:14:19.164 --> 0:14:22.364 And I'm assuming that there will be more revelations because 0:14:22.404 --> 0:14:25.524 all of this stuff keeps coming out on a almost 0:14:25.604 --> 0:14:31.684 daily He's trying to maximize engagement with a serialized, paywalled 0:14:31.924 --> 0:14:35.204 sub stack, and apparently it's working. I think he had 0:14:35.244 --> 0:14:37.724 like almost eight hundred thousand reads of one of his 0:14:37.804 --> 0:14:40.924 sub stacks something like that, which is huge numbers. 0:14:41.764 --> 0:14:42.244 It's very good. 0:14:42.284 --> 0:14:43.324 Yeah, it's good, it's good. 0:14:43.964 --> 0:14:46.204 But anyway, so that's what's happening right now. And the 0:14:46.244 --> 0:14:48.924 reason why, by the way, this matters to more than 0:14:49.004 --> 0:14:52.164 New York Media DC media and Ryan is in DC, 0:14:52.404 --> 0:14:56.364 Olivia is on the West Coast is because it touches 0:14:56.404 --> 0:14:59.764 on issues of journalistic ethics, which we talked about last 0:14:59.764 --> 0:15:02.404 week in a very different context on this show, and 0:15:02.844 --> 0:15:05.444 ethics when it comes to political reporting, when it comes 0:15:05.484 --> 0:15:09.684 to access, when it comes to kind of just how 0:15:09.804 --> 0:15:12.884 close you want to be to the people that you're 0:15:12.924 --> 0:15:16.764 writing about. And this comes up not just with sexual impropriety, 0:15:17.124 --> 0:15:19.524 but with you know, people who are really friendly with 0:15:20.004 --> 0:15:22.764 you know, Silicon Valley tycoons and write about them, right, Like, 0:15:22.804 --> 0:15:25.244 this is a question that comes up very very frequently 0:15:25.844 --> 0:15:31.284 outside of this you know, sexual scandal that is titillating audiences. 0:15:31.324 --> 0:15:33.364 So there are much broader questions here. 0:15:34.564 --> 0:15:36.684 Yeah, Olivia Nutsi is a kind of. 0:15:38.684 --> 0:15:41.724 Kind of character that if like Aaron Sorkin wrote a 0:15:41.764 --> 0:15:43.964 movie about journalism, which I guess he did, he'd insert 0:15:43.964 --> 0:15:49.444 her in there and people would accuse him of being Yeah, misogynist. Yes, 0:15:49.484 --> 0:15:52.884 I mean so she she got her start working as 0:15:52.884 --> 0:15:54.844 like an intern for the Anthony Wiener. 0:15:57.284 --> 0:16:00.084 You can you cannot be if not only would people 0:16:00.164 --> 0:16:03.204 accuse Sorkin of being a misogynists, but they'd accused him 0:16:03.244 --> 0:16:05.484 of being two on the nose right with this story, 0:16:05.844 --> 0:16:11.484 Like I'm just the irony of her starting with Anthony 0:16:11.484 --> 0:16:12.644 Waider is just hilarious. 0:16:12.644 --> 0:16:14.564 Please continue now. 0:16:14.644 --> 0:16:16.764 But her shtick has always kind of been like an 0:16:16.804 --> 0:16:22.444 access pedler or like kind of a gossip pedler, right, 0:16:22.484 --> 0:16:25.964 Like it's always an architect that's existed within journalism, right, 0:16:26.084 --> 0:16:31.524 And in some ways it's kind of a throwback almost, right, 0:16:31.564 --> 0:16:35.924 whereas like today, like journalists tend to be pretty you know, 0:16:36.204 --> 0:16:38.644 self serious and things like that, which is good overall. 0:16:38.644 --> 0:16:40.604 I mean, I think the ethics in the industry have improved, 0:16:40.644 --> 0:16:44.444 and I you know, look, I am criticized journalists, but 0:16:44.444 --> 0:16:46.284 I will defend the profession. You are kind of like 0:16:46.324 --> 0:16:50.284 writing the first draft of history, and in real time, right, 0:16:50.764 --> 0:16:56.484 you will get criticized by bipartisan idiots no matter what 0:16:56.804 --> 0:17:00.964 you say, potentially, But she's definitely on this side where like, Okay, 0:17:01.044 --> 0:17:04.444 you're gonna bend if you rules to gain more access, 0:17:04.564 --> 0:17:07.444 right and like, and Lissa kind of accused her too, 0:17:08.844 --> 0:17:14.404 you know, help being our FK junior with pr in essence, right. 0:17:14.884 --> 0:17:17.884 The accusation, by the way, let's let's just put a 0:17:17.924 --> 0:17:21.164 finer point on it for people who aren't following along, 0:17:21.204 --> 0:17:25.764 because this is important. Ryan Lizza says that she allegedly 0:17:26.524 --> 0:17:32.564 would ask him and other sources about basically about opposition 0:17:32.924 --> 0:17:35.844 research that they had on RFK Junior, and that she 0:17:35.884 --> 0:17:38.964 would then feed that information back to him, So she 0:17:39.084 --> 0:17:41.564 was basically being a double agent in a sense. 0:17:41.964 --> 0:17:43.524 Yeah. Look, journalists believe it or not. 0:17:43.564 --> 0:17:47.404 Despite the broad distress that people in society have of journalists, right, 0:17:48.204 --> 0:17:50.644 you know, they operate in the position of substantial trust. Right, 0:17:50.644 --> 0:17:54.284 people disclose things and they wouldn't disclose to anybody else, 0:17:54.404 --> 0:17:58.524 just taste taking the journalists like word for it. So yeah, 0:17:58.644 --> 0:18:02.284 as someone in the industry, then anytimes like this undermine's 0:18:02.364 --> 0:18:06.644 credibility of future sources, than then we should be pissed. 0:18:06.484 --> 0:18:07.084 About it, right. 0:18:07.124 --> 0:18:11.244 You know, one of the things accused Nancy of is 0:18:11.284 --> 0:18:16.444 like taking a source set is off the record and 0:18:16.684 --> 0:18:19.764 reporting it as though it's on background. People may or 0:18:19.764 --> 0:18:21.804 we not care about the distinction on background means that 0:18:22.324 --> 0:18:23.804 you can use what I have, but don't attribute it 0:18:23.804 --> 0:18:26.404 to me. Off the record means note, you can't use it. 0:18:27.244 --> 0:18:29.804 You can confirm it with another source, right, but like, 0:18:29.844 --> 0:18:33.684 you can't use this at all without my permission. And 0:18:33.764 --> 0:18:36.724 so you know, that's as far as like journalistic sins go. 0:18:36.804 --> 0:18:40.004 That's like what's I don't know what's the more serious 0:18:40.044 --> 0:18:41.364 kind of sin in the Catholic Church? 0:18:41.404 --> 0:18:41.724 Do you know? 0:18:42.364 --> 0:18:42.684 I don't. 0:18:42.724 --> 0:18:44.844 I don't know which sins are the most I have 0:18:45.084 --> 0:18:49.364 Dante's circles of Hell we can talk about, you. 0:18:49.324 --> 0:18:53.204 Know, where the the worst then or like or the outer. 0:18:54.124 --> 0:18:56.524 The the ennery, the further down you go. It's a 0:18:56.684 --> 0:18:59.044 you're descending, so that the furthest. 0:18:58.804 --> 0:19:03.484 Is this is a couple of levels in to hell, 0:19:03.724 --> 0:19:07.124 right like it's it's it's bad. Mostly should bow up 0:19:07.124 --> 0:19:08.924 in your face because people shouldn't trust you to give 0:19:08.964 --> 0:19:10.044 you anything off the record. 0:19:10.284 --> 0:19:11.524 And all. By the way, one of the people. 0:19:11.364 --> 0:19:12.964 Don't realize is like people say, well, why would you 0:19:12.964 --> 0:19:16.244 even have a conversation if it's off the record? 0:19:16.324 --> 0:19:16.484 Right? 0:19:16.524 --> 0:19:18.964 Well, you know, first of all, sometimes it's the only 0:19:19.164 --> 0:19:21.484 condition under which a source would talk to a journalist 0:19:21.564 --> 0:19:24.044 at all. You know, sometimes they would love to hear 0:19:24.084 --> 0:19:25.524 the story, report it, but they have to be care 0:19:25.524 --> 0:19:27.604 about being their name on it, so they provide useful 0:19:27.644 --> 0:19:32.404 information sometimes, so you're surprised they might agree to go 0:19:32.644 --> 0:19:35.524 let you put things on the record later on if 0:19:35.524 --> 0:19:37.684 they come to trust you and it's persuasive, right, So 0:19:37.684 --> 0:19:39.684 there's lots of reasons we're doing this kind. 0:19:39.604 --> 0:19:40.404 Of thing potentially. 0:19:40.404 --> 0:19:40.964 Absolutely. 0:19:41.004 --> 0:19:44.204 I actually, you know, in the reporting I'm doing right 0:19:44.244 --> 0:19:46.524 now for my book on cheating, I have a lot 0:19:46.564 --> 0:19:48.484 of people who are willing to tell me things off 0:19:48.484 --> 0:19:51.364 the record, but don't even want it on background because 0:19:51.444 --> 0:19:54.564 there are you know, they don't want the repercussions, right, 0:19:54.644 --> 0:19:57.004 and for some of the things, and this was true 0:19:57.084 --> 0:19:59.604 when I wrote about con artists, they are also nefarious 0:19:59.644 --> 0:20:02.164 elements at work right where people can be afraid for 0:20:02.204 --> 0:20:04.284 their safety, like they just don't think it's worth it. 0:20:04.804 --> 0:20:07.084 They don't want to kind of they just don't want 0:20:07.084 --> 0:20:09.884 to get involved, right, But they do want to talk 0:20:09.924 --> 0:20:12.844 to you a little bit by like confirming that yes, 0:20:12.924 --> 0:20:16.284 this happened, or venting that yes I got cheated or 0:20:16.364 --> 0:20:18.844 you know this kind of this this took place. But 0:20:18.884 --> 0:20:20.964 there's kind of a limit to what they're willing to say, 0:20:21.084 --> 0:20:22.964 and I'm more than happy to talk to people off 0:20:22.964 --> 0:20:25.204 the record, right like, because then you at least get 0:20:25.204 --> 0:20:27.044 the outlines of the story and you can start trying 0:20:27.084 --> 0:20:30.204 to pull on other strings, and you know the story exists, 0:20:30.284 --> 0:20:32.804 and you have, you know, a source that will kind 0:20:32.804 --> 0:20:36.044 of potentially be helpful in the future. So I think 0:20:36.044 --> 0:20:38.244 there are lots of reasons why you would talk off 0:20:38.244 --> 0:20:40.004 the record. And the reason, by the way, that people 0:20:40.004 --> 0:20:41.884 are willing to talk to me, Nate, is because I've 0:20:41.924 --> 0:20:44.324 never burned a source, right Like, if you talk to 0:20:44.364 --> 0:20:46.804 me off the record, it's going to be off the record. 0:20:47.164 --> 0:20:49.404 If I tell you that I'm not going to use it, 0:20:49.444 --> 0:20:52.044 I will not use it. And I think that that's 0:20:52.124 --> 0:20:57.564 so important because especially, you know, reputation is hugely important 0:20:57.604 --> 0:21:01.124 in journalism, but especially now with so many different you know, 0:21:02.364 --> 0:21:05.564 attacks on the journalistic profession and distrust of the media. 0:21:05.564 --> 0:21:08.804 I think it's just integrity is incredibly important, right People 0:21:08.884 --> 0:21:10.844 need to be able to trust you, and people need 0:21:10.884 --> 0:21:13.044 to be able to trust your reporting. And so that's 0:21:13.124 --> 0:21:14.924 kind of the other part of it, right It's both 0:21:14.964 --> 0:21:17.844 the it's both the fact that you burn sources, but 0:21:17.924 --> 0:21:22.044