1 00:00:15,564 --> 00:00:16,044 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:26,364 --> 00:00:29,684 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making better decisions. 3 00:00:29,804 --> 00:00:32,004 Speaker 2: I'm Maria Kannakova and I'm Nate Silver. 4 00:00:32,844 --> 00:00:36,924 Speaker 3: Today on the show, we have an interesting heiring of topics. 5 00:00:36,964 --> 00:00:41,564 Speaker 3: We're going to talk about the a disease of holiday travel, planes, 6 00:00:41,604 --> 00:00:44,084 Speaker 3: trays and automobiles. I'm a big plain guy. It turns 7 00:00:44,084 --> 00:00:47,524 Speaker 3: out Maria a little more skeptical. And then speaking of disease, 8 00:00:49,044 --> 00:00:52,204 Speaker 3: the journalist Olivia Nitzi was accused by fellow double z 9 00:00:52,444 --> 00:00:57,644 Speaker 3: Ryan Lizza, her ex fiancee, of various crimes against journalism. 10 00:00:57,724 --> 00:01:00,124 Speaker 3: We will discuss those in an entertaining fashion. 11 00:01:00,324 --> 00:01:04,124 Speaker 2: Yes, some journalistic ethics coming right up. But first, yeah, 12 00:01:04,244 --> 00:01:08,364 Speaker 2: let's talk about Thanksgiving travel as everyone plans their travel 13 00:01:08,444 --> 00:01:17,524 Speaker 2: for the holidays are coming up. Ny you traveled by plane. 14 00:01:17,684 --> 00:01:23,004 Speaker 2: You went to Kansas City, and I had Thanksgiving in Boston, 15 00:01:23,044 --> 00:01:26,044 Speaker 2: where I'm from with my family. So I had all 16 00:01:26,084 --> 00:01:28,764 Speaker 2: sorts of options, and you know what, I actually thought 17 00:01:28,804 --> 00:01:32,724 Speaker 2: about all of them, because, as we talked about last year, 18 00:01:32,764 --> 00:01:35,644 Speaker 2: around this time, it can be really really tricky to 19 00:01:35,844 --> 00:01:40,604 Speaker 2: optimize holiday travel. So going to Boston is something that 20 00:01:40,604 --> 00:01:42,844 Speaker 2: you would think is super easy, right, Boston and New 21 00:01:42,924 --> 00:01:45,284 Speaker 2: York like what three and a half hours, four hours, 22 00:01:45,324 --> 00:01:49,564 Speaker 2: like pretty pretty close. Unfortunately, that's really not the case. 23 00:01:50,084 --> 00:01:52,444 Speaker 2: So you have a few options, right. You can drive, 24 00:01:52,684 --> 00:01:56,284 Speaker 2: so that involves a lot of risk reward trade offs 25 00:01:56,764 --> 00:02:01,084 Speaker 2: car rental and traffic. You can fly obviously, whether you 26 00:02:01,124 --> 00:02:03,284 Speaker 2: can be delayed. We know that there have been a 27 00:02:03,324 --> 00:02:06,404 Speaker 2: lot of issues with flights in the last few months, 28 00:02:06,684 --> 00:02:09,604 Speaker 2: so that's the issue there, and train seems to be 29 00:02:09,604 --> 00:02:13,644 Speaker 2: the safest option. However, my last train ride to Boston, 30 00:02:13,724 --> 00:02:18,604 Speaker 2: Nate took seven and a half hours because within half 31 00:02:18,644 --> 00:02:21,764 Speaker 2: an hour of leaving Penn Station, New York, we hit 32 00:02:21,844 --> 00:02:24,524 Speaker 2: something and then the train couldn't go above like forty 33 00:02:24,524 --> 00:02:26,204 Speaker 2: five miles an hour for the rest of the trip. 34 00:02:26,764 --> 00:02:28,564 Speaker 2: But they didn't tell us that. They just kept saying 35 00:02:28,564 --> 00:02:30,884 Speaker 2: that we'd be making up the time, and we never did. 36 00:02:31,244 --> 00:02:34,244 Speaker 2: And you want to guess how much two train tickets 37 00:02:34,284 --> 00:02:37,964 Speaker 2: were to Boston for Thanksgiving weekend? I bought these back 38 00:02:38,004 --> 00:02:41,324 Speaker 2: in September. Luckily about refundable ones, and I did get refunded. 39 00:02:42,004 --> 00:02:46,204 Speaker 2: Think about think about holiday travel Thanksgiving this weekend? How 40 00:02:46,244 --> 00:02:48,684 Speaker 2: much just normal as seloitics, I. 41 00:02:48,724 --> 00:02:52,004 Speaker 4: Say, like seven hundred dollars one way or something. 42 00:02:53,324 --> 00:02:54,284 Speaker 1: You're very close. 43 00:02:54,364 --> 00:03:01,484 Speaker 2: So for two people, the tickets were seventeen hundred dollars together, 44 00:03:02,284 --> 00:03:07,724 Speaker 2: and that is just absolutely ludicrous, right, So you have 45 00:03:07,924 --> 00:03:09,084 Speaker 2: all of these different things. 46 00:03:09,484 --> 00:03:09,804 Speaker 4: Pay it. 47 00:03:11,364 --> 00:03:13,564 Speaker 2: I did, but I did it as a backup, so 48 00:03:13,564 --> 00:03:17,564 Speaker 2: it's yes, it was so. 49 00:03:17,884 --> 00:03:18,644 Speaker 4: They can charge it. 50 00:03:18,684 --> 00:03:21,564 Speaker 2: They're doing it because they can, and they do it 51 00:03:21,604 --> 00:03:25,684 Speaker 2: because they know that there is really no viable good options. 52 00:03:25,724 --> 00:03:27,764 Speaker 2: So we also had a car rental, which, by the way, 53 00:03:27,884 --> 00:03:30,084 Speaker 2: was like a fraction of the cost. Right the car 54 00:03:30,124 --> 00:03:33,044 Speaker 2: rental for five days was like five hundred dollars something 55 00:03:33,084 --> 00:03:37,364 Speaker 2: like that. Not an insignificant amount of money, but like, fine, 56 00:03:37,404 --> 00:03:39,444 Speaker 2: you know you're renting a car four or five days. 57 00:03:39,764 --> 00:03:42,764 Speaker 2: Now the car rental, though you have your own issues 58 00:03:42,804 --> 00:03:45,444 Speaker 2: one will you actually have a car. I don't know 59 00:03:45,444 --> 00:03:47,844 Speaker 2: if we've talked about this on the show, but rental 60 00:03:47,844 --> 00:03:50,524 Speaker 2: cars are really weird when it comes to reservations. You 61 00:03:50,564 --> 00:03:53,444 Speaker 2: make a reservation, but unlike a restaurant where you make 62 00:03:53,444 --> 00:03:56,124 Speaker 2: a reservation and there's a table waiting for you, you can 63 00:03:56,124 --> 00:03:58,964 Speaker 2: make a rental car reservation. You get there and there 64 00:03:59,004 --> 00:04:01,444 Speaker 2: ain't any cars and they say, yeah, sorry, we don't 65 00:04:01,484 --> 00:04:03,684 Speaker 2: have any cars left right now, but you can wait 66 00:04:03,844 --> 00:04:05,404 Speaker 2: I've had to wait for around. 67 00:04:05,164 --> 00:04:09,764 Speaker 3: Four capitalist economy. Do you want price fixing, I'd be 68 00:04:09,764 --> 00:04:11,044 Speaker 3: most capitalists don't like that. 69 00:04:11,804 --> 00:04:13,244 Speaker 1: No, no, but like what they think. 70 00:04:13,324 --> 00:04:16,604 Speaker 3: So we were booking tickets to Michigan to see my 71 00:04:16,724 --> 00:04:22,444 Speaker 3: family for Christmas, and yeah, from New York in coach, 72 00:04:22,924 --> 00:04:25,004 Speaker 3: it's like nine hundred bucks or something, right, and like 73 00:04:26,084 --> 00:04:29,644 Speaker 3: they figured out that, like when you have people who 74 00:04:29,644 --> 00:04:31,844 Speaker 3: are desperate to get home for something, right, you can 75 00:04:31,924 --> 00:04:33,644 Speaker 3: charge a lot of money and those lights will be full. 76 00:04:33,964 --> 00:04:38,324 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, an Asella knows that it has kind 77 00:04:38,324 --> 00:04:42,204 Speaker 2: of this cornered market because weather in New England can 78 00:04:42,244 --> 00:04:44,124 Speaker 2: be really bad, right, and if you need to be 79 00:04:44,204 --> 00:04:46,164 Speaker 2: home for Thanksgiving. So we had flights as well, which 80 00:04:46,164 --> 00:04:47,884 Speaker 2: were much cheaper. By the way, we had a you 81 00:04:47,924 --> 00:04:52,244 Speaker 2: know Delta shuttle reserved which you can cancel anytime, which 82 00:04:52,284 --> 00:04:55,044 Speaker 2: were you know, half the price of the trade. But 83 00:04:55,684 --> 00:04:59,244 Speaker 2: you also have the notion of like what if it snows, right, 84 00:04:59,444 --> 00:05:01,284 Speaker 2: what if the weather's bat what if I get stuck 85 00:05:01,324 --> 00:05:04,604 Speaker 2: on either side cars? You have a lot of control, 86 00:05:04,684 --> 00:05:07,164 Speaker 2: And we had a great smooth trip there, but it 87 00:05:07,164 --> 00:05:09,364 Speaker 2: took us seven hours to get back and I was 88 00:05:09,524 --> 00:05:12,764 Speaker 2: actually wondering, you know, as we were driving. Obviously there 89 00:05:13,324 --> 00:05:15,244 Speaker 2: is a factor of just more people on the road. 90 00:05:15,484 --> 00:05:17,244 Speaker 2: But I wonder if there are more accidents around the 91 00:05:17,284 --> 00:05:19,484 Speaker 2: holidays because there are more bad drivers on the roads 92 00:05:19,484 --> 00:05:22,284 Speaker 2: who don't usually drive, but who rent cars for this occasion. 93 00:05:22,324 --> 00:05:25,804 Speaker 1: I don't know what they're doing. I'm assuming that that's. 94 00:05:26,724 --> 00:05:31,084 Speaker 3: You have this amateur hour issue with everything. Right on 95 00:05:31,124 --> 00:05:34,044 Speaker 3: the train there's someone with an order amount of luggage. 96 00:05:34,124 --> 00:05:38,724 Speaker 3: And at the airport, right, they're fucking kids everywhere, right, 97 00:05:38,804 --> 00:05:39,524 Speaker 3: they slow. 98 00:05:39,404 --> 00:05:40,724 Speaker 4: Things down the scarity line. 99 00:05:42,004 --> 00:05:45,284 Speaker 3: Look, the answer is that from New York to DC, 100 00:05:45,764 --> 00:05:48,564 Speaker 3: you take the train, New York to Boston, you fly. 101 00:05:50,244 --> 00:05:52,004 Speaker 4: You won't know why you fly, Maria a couple of reasons. 102 00:05:52,004 --> 00:05:52,684 Speaker 1: Why do you find it? 103 00:05:52,924 --> 00:05:55,684 Speaker 3: First of all, just look at the way that the 104 00:05:55,804 --> 00:05:58,964 Speaker 3: Eastern Seaboard works. Right, We're actually pretty close here in 105 00:05:59,004 --> 00:06:01,844 Speaker 3: New York as the crow files to Boston. 106 00:06:02,044 --> 00:06:04,084 Speaker 4: Right, You've got a. 107 00:06:04,044 --> 00:06:09,404 Speaker 3: Loop all the way around through fucking New Britain, Conneticut 108 00:06:09,564 --> 00:06:11,844 Speaker 3: and New Canaan, Connecticut and all these places. It's like 109 00:06:11,884 --> 00:06:15,844 Speaker 3: not even really optimize the train track, right, but like 110 00:06:15,884 --> 00:06:19,004 Speaker 3: you better like go if you have to, fucking Providence 111 00:06:19,044 --> 00:06:19,764 Speaker 3: and stuff like that. 112 00:06:19,844 --> 00:06:22,204 Speaker 2: Right, It is true. It is true. It is not 113 00:06:22,404 --> 00:06:25,044 Speaker 2: very efficient. You follow the coastline, and the coastline is 114 00:06:25,164 --> 00:06:26,364 Speaker 2: very loopy, so the. 115 00:06:26,324 --> 00:06:29,564 Speaker 3: Flight in the air is like literally about thirty or 116 00:06:29,564 --> 00:06:32,844 Speaker 3: forty minutes from New York to Boston, right, So that 117 00:06:32,884 --> 00:06:33,724 Speaker 3: comes apairical question. 118 00:06:33,764 --> 00:06:34,764 Speaker 4: By the way, not thinking about. 119 00:06:34,564 --> 00:06:38,484 Speaker 3: Boston, Boston, I'm not a big Boston guy, but I 120 00:06:38,524 --> 00:06:42,484 Speaker 3: will say the most underrated airport in the country is 121 00:06:42,484 --> 00:06:45,764 Speaker 3: Boston Logan Airport. It's absolutely you go through that big 122 00:06:45,764 --> 00:06:48,004 Speaker 3: dig and things like that, right, yeah. 123 00:06:47,884 --> 00:06:50,044 Speaker 2: No, and it actually it makes a huge difference. I 124 00:06:50,084 --> 00:06:52,524 Speaker 2: love Logan now and Logan is now a new airport. 125 00:06:52,564 --> 00:06:55,324 Speaker 2: There's actually you can go to Legal Seafood and Logan. 126 00:06:55,844 --> 00:06:57,044 Speaker 2: You can get clam Showder. 127 00:06:57,204 --> 00:07:00,324 Speaker 3: Some clam Showder have a Samuel Adam. The ship sponsors 128 00:07:00,364 --> 00:07:03,364 Speaker 3: have a Samuel Adams logger. Depending on the time of day. 129 00:07:03,524 --> 00:07:07,004 Speaker 2: Absolutely can now it's you know, you're you're absolutely right 130 00:07:07,044 --> 00:07:09,884 Speaker 2: that when you're thinking about just the time and the 131 00:07:10,044 --> 00:07:14,364 Speaker 2: chances of like the maximization of time, I totally agree 132 00:07:14,404 --> 00:07:16,364 Speaker 2: that the plane is a way to go. The reason 133 00:07:16,364 --> 00:07:19,204 Speaker 2: why I don't always fly is because i've been so 134 00:07:19,644 --> 00:07:21,844 Speaker 2: when I go to Boston, it's always around the holidays, 135 00:07:21,924 --> 00:07:27,284 Speaker 2: right Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's times when New England weather 136 00:07:27,364 --> 00:07:30,124 Speaker 2: can be very unpredictable. And that's so when you're doing 137 00:07:30,124 --> 00:07:33,164 Speaker 2: this calculus, obviously you have, as with any decision, you 138 00:07:33,244 --> 00:07:36,404 Speaker 2: have a bunch of different variables. Right, you have the time, 139 00:07:36,484 --> 00:07:40,044 Speaker 2: which is huge like maximizing time. You have cost obviously, 140 00:07:40,044 --> 00:07:42,604 Speaker 2: which is important, but you also have what are what 141 00:07:42,684 --> 00:07:45,404 Speaker 2: is the risk that I'm going to get there when 142 00:07:45,404 --> 00:07:48,844 Speaker 2: I need to get there right versus not? And with 143 00:07:49,044 --> 00:07:51,364 Speaker 2: the with the plane, you know, with the Delta shuttle, 144 00:07:51,404 --> 00:07:53,724 Speaker 2: which is kind of the most efficient way to get 145 00:07:53,884 --> 00:07:58,284 Speaker 2: to Boston. I have had canceled flights and delayed flights 146 00:07:58,324 --> 00:08:02,164 Speaker 2: not infrequently because the weather gets really shitty this time 147 00:08:02,204 --> 00:08:04,964 Speaker 2: of year. So that I think is the major risk. 148 00:08:05,404 --> 00:08:07,804 Speaker 2: Like let's assume the price is the same with everything, 149 00:08:08,124 --> 00:08:11,364 Speaker 2: but still when it comes to airport travel, you also 150 00:08:11,404 --> 00:08:13,404 Speaker 2: have to budget the time of how do I get 151 00:08:13,404 --> 00:08:15,124 Speaker 2: to the airport? When do I get to the airport? 152 00:08:15,204 --> 00:08:18,124 Speaker 3: Yeah, people people are a little phobic about their little 153 00:08:18,204 --> 00:08:20,844 Speaker 3: nitty about some of the airport stuff. 154 00:08:21,244 --> 00:08:22,444 Speaker 4: I hope our listeners know. 155 00:08:22,404 --> 00:08:27,444 Speaker 3: What nitty means, right, your risk averse and neurotic. It's 156 00:08:27,444 --> 00:08:31,684 Speaker 3: a poker term for someone who like folds too much? Right, oh, 157 00:08:31,804 --> 00:08:34,204 Speaker 3: or just kind of you know Alan Kessler, if you 158 00:08:34,244 --> 00:08:37,684 Speaker 3: know Alan Kessler and the poker Seine's a knit for example. 159 00:08:38,044 --> 00:08:40,844 Speaker 2: That was very inside baseball. But I love it, Natam 160 00:08:40,884 --> 00:08:42,204 Speaker 2: here for you don't. 161 00:08:42,004 --> 00:08:44,044 Speaker 3: Need there's actually a silver bolt in my Newslayer. There's like, 162 00:08:44,084 --> 00:08:46,124 Speaker 3: when do you get to the airport calculator? People are 163 00:08:46,244 --> 00:08:49,444 Speaker 3: very nitty about airports stuff, right. The fact is you 164 00:08:49,444 --> 00:08:51,804 Speaker 3: can cut it pretty close if you want. You know, 165 00:08:52,364 --> 00:08:56,204 Speaker 3: the surveillance state has probably rubbed us savol our, privacy 166 00:08:56,204 --> 00:09:00,364 Speaker 3: and dignity. However, it does lead to substantially faster lines 167 00:09:00,404 --> 00:09:04,084 Speaker 3: at the TSA check in, so realizes the benefit from that. 168 00:09:05,844 --> 00:09:08,524 Speaker 1: You know, there's a silver lining. You get through security faster. 169 00:09:08,724 --> 00:09:10,484 Speaker 2: Sure, you gave up all your privacy. 170 00:09:11,004 --> 00:09:14,124 Speaker 4: Yes, look it's a trade off. But like also like 171 00:09:14,524 --> 00:09:17,924 Speaker 4: when you have those weather delays, the amcracks often aren't 172 00:09:18,004 --> 00:09:19,524 Speaker 4: much better. 173 00:09:20,204 --> 00:09:22,804 Speaker 2: This is true, but they do get there right end 174 00:09:22,804 --> 00:09:24,884 Speaker 2: of the day. It was just, you know, a choice 175 00:09:24,884 --> 00:09:28,204 Speaker 2: between bad alternatives. But we both made it. We both 176 00:09:28,244 --> 00:09:32,244 Speaker 2: made it. Back Nate, when our listeners try to maximize 177 00:09:32,244 --> 00:09:36,324 Speaker 2: their holiday travel for you know, the upcoming holidays and 178 00:09:36,404 --> 00:09:39,324 Speaker 2: for future years, Obviously some of what we talked about 179 00:09:39,364 --> 00:09:41,244 Speaker 2: is New England specific, but I think a lot of 180 00:09:41,244 --> 00:09:44,444 Speaker 2: it is advice that you can kind of take no 181 00:09:44,484 --> 00:09:47,764 Speaker 2: matter where your traveling, which is obviously, look at the time, 182 00:09:48,204 --> 00:09:50,804 Speaker 2: look at the cost, look at your risk of actually 183 00:09:50,804 --> 00:09:53,604 Speaker 2: getting there versus getting stuck, and how important it is 184 00:09:53,644 --> 00:09:55,484 Speaker 2: to you to get there at a specific time, at 185 00:09:55,484 --> 00:09:57,724 Speaker 2: a specific day, Because if you can afford to be 186 00:09:57,804 --> 00:10:00,444 Speaker 2: delayed a little bit, then that's it. That's a totally 187 00:10:00,444 --> 00:10:03,004 Speaker 2: different story. And what you pointed out, Nate, I think 188 00:10:03,044 --> 00:10:05,324 Speaker 2: is also important, which is you don't have to be 189 00:10:05,364 --> 00:10:06,444 Speaker 2: that nitty these are all right. 190 00:10:06,524 --> 00:10:09,364 Speaker 4: People miss this a lot when they are calculating their. 191 00:10:10,004 --> 00:10:14,284 Speaker 3: Flight or travel options. Right, how critical? How much and 192 00:10:14,324 --> 00:10:15,204 Speaker 3: critical is it. 193 00:10:15,124 --> 00:10:18,484 Speaker 4: For you to be late or on time? I should say, right. 194 00:10:18,524 --> 00:10:21,844 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really important question that people really do 195 00:10:21,884 --> 00:10:23,884 Speaker 2: not ask themselves often enough. They're like, oh, I don't 196 00:10:23,884 --> 00:10:26,204 Speaker 2: want to be late, but how like how close are 197 00:10:26,284 --> 00:10:27,324 Speaker 2: you pushing your travel? 198 00:10:27,524 --> 00:10:27,684 Speaker 4: Right? 199 00:10:27,724 --> 00:10:29,404 Speaker 2: Like, if you need to be there by Thursday and 200 00:10:29,444 --> 00:10:32,404 Speaker 2: you're traveling on Wednesday, right, Like you have a little 201 00:10:32,444 --> 00:10:36,924 Speaker 2: bit of a window of flexibility if you're traveling Thursday morning. Obviously, Yeah, okay, 202 00:10:37,084 --> 00:10:40,204 Speaker 2: you're fucked, you're delayed. So it's one of these things 203 00:10:40,244 --> 00:10:41,644 Speaker 2: where you do need to. 204 00:10:41,564 --> 00:10:42,084 Speaker 1: Figure it out. 205 00:10:42,404 --> 00:10:46,324 Speaker 2: There's a cascade of obligations, and how important your delay 206 00:10:46,404 --> 00:10:48,844 Speaker 2: is changes depending on what you're doing. 207 00:10:49,764 --> 00:10:50,644 Speaker 1: The one other. 208 00:10:50,444 --> 00:10:52,924 Speaker 2: Piece of advice I will give to our listeners is 209 00:10:53,484 --> 00:10:55,684 Speaker 2: if you are in the airport they have over sold 210 00:10:55,684 --> 00:10:58,884 Speaker 2: the flight and they are asking for volunteers, and you 211 00:10:58,964 --> 00:11:02,524 Speaker 2: are actually in a position to volunteer, do not accept 212 00:11:02,604 --> 00:11:06,364 Speaker 2: their offer because they will be willing to up it 213 00:11:07,044 --> 00:11:09,844 Speaker 2: to a pretty significant amount, and if no one takes 214 00:11:09,844 --> 00:11:12,284 Speaker 2: it within the first like ten minutes, they start panicking. 215 00:11:12,524 --> 00:11:14,844 Speaker 2: So then you can, like if they're offering five hundred dollars, 216 00:11:15,084 --> 00:11:16,764 Speaker 2: walk up to them and be like, I'll do it 217 00:11:16,764 --> 00:11:19,404 Speaker 2: for fifteen hundred and first class tickets or whatever it is, 218 00:11:20,164 --> 00:11:22,364 Speaker 2: and they'll they'll say yes most of the time. So 219 00:11:22,404 --> 00:11:24,604 Speaker 2: that's just a little travel hack for when your plans 220 00:11:24,684 --> 00:11:26,044 Speaker 2: are a little bit flexible. 221 00:11:26,124 --> 00:11:28,524 Speaker 3: Applying me is it like a prisoner's dilemma? Though, like that, 222 00:11:28,684 --> 00:11:30,764 Speaker 3: like I will undercut you. So we're saying that like 223 00:11:31,724 --> 00:11:35,884 Speaker 3: passengers should collude, should collude to demand more? 224 00:11:36,484 --> 00:11:37,084 Speaker 1: Yeah, we wave. 225 00:11:37,164 --> 00:11:41,684 Speaker 4: The airline was like, fuck you, you're all grounded. Motherfuckers. You're grounding, 226 00:11:41,724 --> 00:11:43,284 Speaker 4: You're making us pay too much. 227 00:11:43,364 --> 00:11:45,924 Speaker 2: This is this is something that an airline may do. 228 00:11:47,164 --> 00:11:51,164 Speaker 4: But but yeah, it makes this issue. I can be 229 00:11:51,244 --> 00:11:51,644 Speaker 4: taken off. 230 00:11:52,764 --> 00:11:54,444 Speaker 2: This is true, This is true. The game theory of 231 00:11:54,484 --> 00:11:55,924 Speaker 2: this can get complicated. 232 00:12:04,484 --> 00:12:17,244 Speaker 5: And we'll be right back after this break, Nate. 233 00:12:17,404 --> 00:12:22,164 Speaker 2: Let's let's get down and dirty and talk some even 234 00:12:22,164 --> 00:12:25,324 Speaker 2: more inside baseball, inside New York but not just New 235 00:12:25,404 --> 00:12:30,204 Speaker 2: York DC, inside media and inside the political just realm 236 00:12:30,284 --> 00:12:36,524 Speaker 2: of political reporting drama with the scandal the right, is 237 00:12:36,564 --> 00:12:40,684 Speaker 2: there an US there around Olivia Nutzi, Ryan Lizza, lots 238 00:12:40,724 --> 00:12:44,204 Speaker 2: of people Rfkjune, you are lots of people implicated, Nate. 239 00:12:44,244 --> 00:12:46,324 Speaker 2: Do you want to give a little breakdown for our 240 00:12:46,364 --> 00:12:48,364 Speaker 2: listeners who might not be aware of everything, or do 241 00:12:48,364 --> 00:12:48,964 Speaker 2: you want me to do it? 242 00:12:49,004 --> 00:12:51,164 Speaker 4: Yeah? You want to take turns? I don't know. 243 00:12:51,204 --> 00:12:54,444 Speaker 2: Maria all right, Well, I can give you a little 244 00:12:54,524 --> 00:12:57,604 Speaker 2: bit of background, which is that Olivia Nutzi was a 245 00:12:57,604 --> 00:13:01,444 Speaker 2: star political reporter at New York Magazine who was known 246 00:13:01,564 --> 00:13:05,124 Speaker 2: for her voice, for her access, for her scoops, and 247 00:13:05,204 --> 00:13:11,364 Speaker 2: her scoops involved great interviews with people like Mark Sanford 248 00:13:11,564 --> 00:13:17,684 Speaker 2: and RFK Junior. She became engaged to Ryan Liza, who 249 00:13:17,844 --> 00:13:21,764 Speaker 2: used to be a New Yorker writer. He was fired 250 00:13:21,804 --> 00:13:26,124 Speaker 2: from The New Yorker for alleged sexual misconduct I guess, 251 00:13:27,244 --> 00:13:31,324 Speaker 2: and he was engaged to Olivia Nutzi. Then it turned 252 00:13:31,364 --> 00:13:36,724 Speaker 2: out that Olivia was having we don't know, it's still 253 00:13:36,804 --> 00:13:39,204 Speaker 2: unclear if it was ever physical or emotional anyway, and 254 00:13:39,204 --> 00:13:42,964 Speaker 2: improper relationship with one of her subjects while she was 255 00:13:43,004 --> 00:13:49,604 Speaker 2: covering the elections RFK Junior and she and Ryan Lizza 256 00:13:50,004 --> 00:13:53,884 Speaker 2: split up. She was dismissed from New York magazine. She 257 00:13:54,364 --> 00:13:57,364 Speaker 2: apparently then immediately started working on a book, which has 258 00:13:57,484 --> 00:14:00,684 Speaker 2: just come out. She was hired by Vanity Fair, and 259 00:14:00,924 --> 00:14:04,564 Speaker 2: Ryan Lizza himself launched a series of sub stack posts 260 00:14:04,604 --> 00:14:09,524 Speaker 2: where he revealed that her alleged improprieties when it came 261 00:14:09,524 --> 00:14:14,804 Speaker 2: to political reporting went far beyond RFK Junior, including an 262 00:14:14,844 --> 00:14:19,124 Speaker 2: actual physical affair with one of her other subjects, Mark Sandford. 263 00:14:19,164 --> 00:14:22,364 Speaker 2: And I'm assuming that there will be more revelations because 264 00:14:22,404 --> 00:14:25,524 Speaker 2: all of this stuff keeps coming out on a almost 265 00:14:25,604 --> 00:14:31,684 Speaker 2: daily He's trying to maximize engagement with a serialized, paywalled 266 00:14:31,924 --> 00:14:35,204 Speaker 2: sub stack, and apparently it's working. I think he had 267 00:14:35,244 --> 00:14:37,724 Speaker 2: like almost eight hundred thousand reads of one of his 268 00:14:37,804 --> 00:14:40,924 Speaker 2: sub stacks something like that, which is huge numbers. 269 00:14:41,764 --> 00:14:42,244 Speaker 4: It's very good. 270 00:14:42,284 --> 00:14:43,324 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good, it's good. 271 00:14:43,964 --> 00:14:46,204 Speaker 2: But anyway, so that's what's happening right now. And the 272 00:14:46,244 --> 00:14:48,924 Speaker 2: reason why, by the way, this matters to more than 273 00:14:49,004 --> 00:14:52,164 Speaker 2: New York Media DC media and Ryan is in DC, 274 00:14:52,404 --> 00:14:56,364 Speaker 2: Olivia is on the West Coast is because it touches 275 00:14:56,404 --> 00:14:59,764 Speaker 2: on issues of journalistic ethics, which we talked about last 276 00:14:59,764 --> 00:15:02,404 Speaker 2: week in a very different context on this show, and 277 00:15:02,844 --> 00:15:05,444 Speaker 2: ethics when it comes to political reporting, when it comes 278 00:15:05,484 --> 00:15:09,684 Speaker 2: to access, when it comes to kind of just how 279 00:15:09,804 --> 00:15:12,884 Speaker 2: close you want to be to the people that you're 280 00:15:12,924 --> 00:15:16,764 Speaker 2: writing about. And this comes up not just with sexual impropriety, 281 00:15:17,124 --> 00:15:19,524 Speaker 2: but with you know, people who are really friendly with 282 00:15:20,004 --> 00:15:22,764 Speaker 2: you know, Silicon Valley tycoons and write about them, right, Like, 283 00:15:22,804 --> 00:15:25,244 Speaker 2: this is a question that comes up very very frequently 284 00:15:25,844 --> 00:15:31,284 Speaker 2: outside of this you know, sexual scandal that is titillating audiences. 285 00:15:31,324 --> 00:15:33,364 Speaker 2: So there are much broader questions here. 286 00:15:34,564 --> 00:15:36,684 Speaker 4: Yeah, Olivia Nutsi is a kind of. 287 00:15:38,684 --> 00:15:41,724 Speaker 3: Kind of character that if like Aaron Sorkin wrote a 288 00:15:41,764 --> 00:15:43,964 Speaker 3: movie about journalism, which I guess he did, he'd insert 289 00:15:43,964 --> 00:15:49,444 Speaker 3: her in there and people would accuse him of being Yeah, misogynist. Yes, 290 00:15:49,484 --> 00:15:52,884 Speaker 3: I mean so she she got her start working as 291 00:15:52,884 --> 00:15:54,844 Speaker 3: like an intern for the Anthony Wiener. 292 00:15:57,284 --> 00:16:00,084 Speaker 2: You can you cannot be if not only would people 293 00:16:00,164 --> 00:16:03,204 Speaker 2: accuse Sorkin of being a misogynists, but they'd accused him 294 00:16:03,244 --> 00:16:05,484 Speaker 2: of being two on the nose right with this story, 295 00:16:05,844 --> 00:16:11,484 Speaker 2: Like I'm just the irony of her starting with Anthony 296 00:16:11,484 --> 00:16:12,644 Speaker 2: Waider is just hilarious. 297 00:16:12,644 --> 00:16:14,564 Speaker 1: Please continue now. 298 00:16:14,644 --> 00:16:16,764 Speaker 3: But her shtick has always kind of been like an 299 00:16:16,804 --> 00:16:22,444 Speaker 3: access pedler or like kind of a gossip pedler, right, 300 00:16:22,484 --> 00:16:25,964 Speaker 3: Like it's always an architect that's existed within journalism, right, 301 00:16:26,084 --> 00:16:31,524 Speaker 3: And in some ways it's kind of a throwback almost, right, 302 00:16:31,564 --> 00:16:35,924 Speaker 3: whereas like today, like journalists tend to be pretty you know, 303 00:16:36,204 --> 00:16:38,644 Speaker 3: self serious and things like that, which is good overall. 304 00:16:38,644 --> 00:16:40,604 Speaker 3: I mean, I think the ethics in the industry have improved, 305 00:16:40,644 --> 00:16:44,444 Speaker 3: and I you know, look, I am criticized journalists, but 306 00:16:44,444 --> 00:16:46,284 Speaker 3: I will defend the profession. You are kind of like 307 00:16:46,324 --> 00:16:50,284 Speaker 3: writing the first draft of history, and in real time, right, 308 00:16:50,764 --> 00:16:56,484 Speaker 3: you will get criticized by bipartisan idiots no matter what 309 00:16:56,804 --> 00:17:00,964 Speaker 3: you say, potentially, But she's definitely on this side where like, Okay, 310 00:17:01,044 --> 00:17:04,444 Speaker 3: you're gonna bend if you rules to gain more access, 311 00:17:04,564 --> 00:17:07,444 Speaker 3: right and like, and Lissa kind of accused her too, 312 00:17:08,844 --> 00:17:14,404 Speaker 3: you know, help being our FK junior with pr in essence, right. 313 00:17:14,884 --> 00:17:17,884 Speaker 2: The accusation, by the way, let's let's just put a 314 00:17:17,924 --> 00:17:21,164 Speaker 2: finer point on it for people who aren't following along, 315 00:17:21,204 --> 00:17:25,764 Speaker 2: because this is important. Ryan Lizza says that she allegedly 316 00:17:26,524 --> 00:17:32,564 Speaker 2: would ask him and other sources about basically about opposition 317 00:17:32,924 --> 00:17:35,844 Speaker 2: research that they had on RFK Junior, and that she 318 00:17:35,884 --> 00:17:38,964 Speaker 2: would then feed that information back to him, So she 319 00:17:39,084 --> 00:17:41,564 Speaker 2: was basically being a double agent in a sense. 320 00:17:41,964 --> 00:17:43,524 Speaker 4: Yeah. Look, journalists believe it or not. 321 00:17:43,564 --> 00:17:47,404 Speaker 3: Despite the broad distress that people in society have of journalists, right, 322 00:17:48,204 --> 00:17:50,644 Speaker 3: you know, they operate in the position of substantial trust. Right, 323 00:17:50,644 --> 00:17:54,284 Speaker 3: people disclose things and they wouldn't disclose to anybody else, 324 00:17:54,404 --> 00:17:58,524 Speaker 3: just taste taking the journalists like word for it. So yeah, 325 00:17:58,644 --> 00:18:02,284 Speaker 3: as someone in the industry, then anytimes like this undermine's 326 00:18:02,364 --> 00:18:06,644 Speaker 3: credibility of future sources, than then we should be pissed. 327 00:18:06,484 --> 00:18:07,084 Speaker 4: About it, right. 328 00:18:07,124 --> 00:18:11,244 Speaker 3: You know, one of the things accused Nancy of is 329 00:18:11,284 --> 00:18:16,444 Speaker 3: like taking a source set is off the record and 330 00:18:16,684 --> 00:18:19,764 Speaker 3: reporting it as though it's on background. People may or 331 00:18:19,764 --> 00:18:21,804 Speaker 3: we not care about the distinction on background means that 332 00:18:22,324 --> 00:18:23,804 Speaker 3: you can use what I have, but don't attribute it 333 00:18:23,804 --> 00:18:26,404 Speaker 3: to me. Off the record means note, you can't use it. 334 00:18:27,244 --> 00:18:29,804 Speaker 3: You can confirm it with another source, right, but like, 335 00:18:29,844 --> 00:18:33,684 Speaker 3: you can't use this at all without my permission. And 336 00:18:33,764 --> 00:18:36,724 Speaker 3: so you know, that's as far as like journalistic sins go. 337 00:18:36,804 --> 00:18:40,004 Speaker 3: That's like what's I don't know what's the more serious 338 00:18:40,044 --> 00:18:41,364 Speaker 3: kind of sin in the Catholic Church? 339 00:18:41,404 --> 00:18:41,724 Speaker 4: Do you know? 340 00:18:42,364 --> 00:18:42,684 Speaker 1: I don't. 341 00:18:42,724 --> 00:18:44,844 Speaker 2: I don't know which sins are the most I have 342 00:18:45,084 --> 00:18:49,364 Speaker 2: Dante's circles of Hell we can talk about, you. 343 00:18:49,324 --> 00:18:53,204 Speaker 4: Know, where the the worst then or like or the outer. 344 00:18:54,124 --> 00:18:56,524 Speaker 2: The the ennery, the further down you go. It's a 345 00:18:56,684 --> 00:18:59,044 Speaker 2: you're descending, so that the furthest. 346 00:18:58,804 --> 00:19:03,484 Speaker 3: Is this is a couple of levels in to hell, 347 00:19:03,724 --> 00:19:07,124 Speaker 3: right like it's it's it's bad. Mostly should bow up 348 00:19:07,124 --> 00:19:08,924 Speaker 3: in your face because people shouldn't trust you to give 349 00:19:08,964 --> 00:19:10,044 Speaker 3: you anything off the record. 350 00:19:10,284 --> 00:19:11,524 Speaker 4: And all. By the way, one of the people. 351 00:19:11,364 --> 00:19:12,964 Speaker 3: Don't realize is like people say, well, why would you 352 00:19:12,964 --> 00:19:16,244 Speaker 3: even have a conversation if it's off the record? 353 00:19:16,324 --> 00:19:16,484 Speaker 4: Right? 354 00:19:16,524 --> 00:19:18,964 Speaker 3: Well, you know, first of all, sometimes it's the only 355 00:19:19,164 --> 00:19:21,484 Speaker 3: condition under which a source would talk to a journalist 356 00:19:21,564 --> 00:19:24,044 Speaker 3: at all. You know, sometimes they would love to hear 357 00:19:24,084 --> 00:19:25,524 Speaker 3: the story, report it, but they have to be care 358 00:19:25,524 --> 00:19:27,604 Speaker 3: about being their name on it, so they provide useful 359 00:19:27,644 --> 00:19:32,404 Speaker 3: information sometimes, so you're surprised they might agree to go 360 00:19:32,644 --> 00:19:35,524 Speaker 3: let you put things on the record later on if 361 00:19:35,524 --> 00:19:37,684 Speaker 3: they come to trust you and it's persuasive, right, So 362 00:19:37,684 --> 00:19:39,684 Speaker 3: there's lots of reasons we're doing this kind. 363 00:19:39,604 --> 00:19:40,404 Speaker 4: Of thing potentially. 364 00:19:40,404 --> 00:19:40,964 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 365 00:19:41,004 --> 00:19:44,204 Speaker 2: I actually, you know, in the reporting I'm doing right 366 00:19:44,244 --> 00:19:46,524 Speaker 2: now for my book on cheating, I have a lot 367 00:19:46,564 --> 00:19:48,484 Speaker 2: of people who are willing to tell me things off 368 00:19:48,484 --> 00:19:51,364 Speaker 2: the record, but don't even want it on background because 369 00:19:51,444 --> 00:19:54,564 Speaker 2: there are you know, they don't want the repercussions, right, 370 00:19:54,644 --> 00:19:57,004 Speaker 2: and for some of the things, and this was true 371 00:19:57,084 --> 00:19:59,604 Speaker 2: when I wrote about con artists, they are also nefarious 372 00:19:59,644 --> 00:20:02,164 Speaker 2: elements at work right where people can be afraid for 373 00:20:02,204 --> 00:20:04,284 Speaker 2: their safety, like they just don't think it's worth it. 374 00:20:04,804 --> 00:20:07,084 Speaker 2: They don't want to kind of they just don't want 375 00:20:07,084 --> 00:20:09,884 Speaker 2: to get involved, right, But they do want to talk 376 00:20:09,924 --> 00:20:12,844 Speaker 2: to you a little bit by like confirming that yes, 377 00:20:12,924 --> 00:20:16,284 Speaker 2: this happened, or venting that yes I got cheated or 378 00:20:16,364 --> 00:20:18,844 Speaker 2: you know this kind of this this took place. But 379 00:20:18,884 --> 00:20:20,964 Speaker 2: there's kind of a limit to what they're willing to say, 380 00:20:21,084 --> 00:20:22,964 Speaker 2: and I'm more than happy to talk to people off 381 00:20:22,964 --> 00:20:25,204 Speaker 2: the record, right like, because then you at least get 382 00:20:25,204 --> 00:20:27,044 Speaker 2: the outlines of the story and you can start trying 383 00:20:27,084 --> 00:20:30,204 Speaker 2: to pull on other strings, and you know the story exists, 384 00:20:30,284 --> 00:20:32,804 Speaker 2: and you have, you know, a source that will kind 385 00:20:32,804 --> 00:20:36,044 Speaker 2: of potentially be helpful in the future. So I think 386 00:20:36,044 --> 00:20:38,244 Speaker 2: there are lots of reasons why you would talk off 387 00:20:38,244 --> 00:20:40,004 Speaker 2: the record. And the reason, by the way, that people 388 00:20:40,004 --> 00:20:41,884 Speaker 2: are willing to talk to me, Nate, is because I've 389 00:20:41,924 --> 00:20:44,324 Speaker 2: never burned a source, right Like, if you talk to 390 00:20:44,364 --> 00:20:46,804 Speaker 2: me off the record, it's going to be off the record. 391 00:20:47,164 --> 00:20:49,404 Speaker 2: If I tell you that I'm not going to use it, 392 00:20:49,444 --> 00:20:52,044 Speaker 2: I will not use it. And I think that that's 393 00:20:52,124 --> 00:20:57,564 Speaker 2: so important because especially, you know, reputation is hugely important 394 00:20:57,604 --> 00:21:01,124 Speaker 2: in journalism, but especially now with so many different you know, 395 00:21:02,364 --> 00:21:05,564 Speaker 2: attacks on the journalistic profession and distrust of the media. 396 00:21:05,564 --> 00:21:08,804 Speaker 2: I think it's just integrity is incredibly important, right People 397 00:21:08,884 --> 00:21:10,844 Speaker 2: need to be able to trust you, and people need 398 00:21:10,884 --> 00:21:13,044 Speaker 2: to be able to trust your reporting. And so that's 399 00:21:13,124 --> 00:21:14,924 Speaker 2: kind of the other part of it, right It's both 400 00:21:14,964 --> 00:21:17,844 Speaker 2: the it's both the fact that you burn sources, but 401 00:21:17,924 --> 00:21:22,044 Speaker 2: also can I trust your reporting? If your interests are 402 00:21:22,044 --> 00:21:25,204 Speaker 2: not to the kind of readers and to the story, 403 00:21:25,204 --> 00:21:28,404 Speaker 2: but to protecting someone promoting someone. If you say that 404 00:21:28,444 --> 00:21:31,564 Speaker 2: you're actually reporting a story about someone, but you're doing 405 00:21:31,604 --> 00:21:36,124 Speaker 2: pr right, Like, that's very different because you're you're not 406 00:21:36,204 --> 00:21:41,844 Speaker 2: disclosing your true motives. You're not disclosing your conflicts of interest, 407 00:21:42,044 --> 00:21:44,204 Speaker 2: which we're always asked about, Nate, I'm sure you are 408 00:21:44,244 --> 00:21:46,924 Speaker 2: as well. Whenever you write about anything, you know, you're 409 00:21:46,964 --> 00:21:49,324 Speaker 2: asked like, do you have any conflict of interest when 410 00:21:49,724 --> 00:21:50,484 Speaker 2: you're writing about this? 411 00:21:50,604 --> 00:21:50,724 Speaker 4: Right? 412 00:21:50,804 --> 00:21:53,524 Speaker 2: Like, do you have any reason why you're not going 413 00:21:53,564 --> 00:21:56,604 Speaker 2: to be an objective source on this? If I am 414 00:21:56,924 --> 00:21:59,684 Speaker 2: you know, if I'm sleeping with someone yet it's a 415 00:21:59,724 --> 00:22:02,204 Speaker 2: conflict of interest. If I'm in love with them, that's 416 00:22:02,204 --> 00:22:05,244 Speaker 2: also probably a conflict of interest. And obviously if I'm 417 00:22:05,244 --> 00:22:08,444 Speaker 2: getting paid by them, like, they're endless conflicts of interest, 418 00:22:08,484 --> 00:22:09,324 Speaker 2: but you have to disclose. 419 00:22:09,644 --> 00:22:12,804 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I mean, you know, like I think maybe 420 00:22:12,804 --> 00:22:15,684 Speaker 3: also have like a conservative on this, right, Like, you know, 421 00:22:15,724 --> 00:22:19,324 Speaker 3: I think the biggest problem with journalists today is that 422 00:22:19,564 --> 00:22:22,404 Speaker 3: there can be a lot of group think. I think, 423 00:22:22,484 --> 00:22:25,084 Speaker 3: especially kind of in the pre i know, kind of 424 00:22:25,084 --> 00:22:28,724 Speaker 3: the peak wokeness era, that group think often leaned pretty 425 00:22:28,724 --> 00:22:32,484 Speaker 3: far toward left or liberal tropes, especially on kind of 426 00:22:32,524 --> 00:22:35,484 Speaker 3: like cultural issues, right, Like you know an age where 427 00:22:35,564 --> 00:22:38,604 Speaker 3: journalist are little bit more mercenary kind of in a 428 00:22:38,644 --> 00:22:42,124 Speaker 3: figurative sense, I think is is okay, right, It's like 429 00:22:42,204 --> 00:22:43,964 Speaker 3: I buy by a certain set of rules, but if 430 00:22:44,004 --> 00:22:48,604 Speaker 3: you don't buy by those rules, then yeah, that's that's 431 00:22:48,644 --> 00:22:50,324 Speaker 3: that's pretty bad, right. I you know, I think in 432 00:22:50,364 --> 00:22:54,724 Speaker 3: practice it's like not why so many Americans distrust journalists? Right? 433 00:22:54,724 --> 00:22:55,404 Speaker 4: I think in. 434 00:22:55,364 --> 00:22:59,004 Speaker 3: General it's like a like, I think journalism has fucked 435 00:22:59,084 --> 00:23:03,404 Speaker 3: up in a lot of ways, right, But also they're 436 00:23:03,484 --> 00:23:07,004 Speaker 3: accused of always carrying water for politicians of different kinds. 437 00:23:07,004 --> 00:23:09,324 Speaker 3: We can debate like how could it is or not right, 438 00:23:09,484 --> 00:23:11,724 Speaker 3: But it's like it's a difficult it's a difficult job. 439 00:23:12,324 --> 00:23:14,404 Speaker 2: It is a difficult job. And when it comes to 440 00:23:14,444 --> 00:23:17,244 Speaker 2: powerful people, right, it doesn't have to be politicians. It 441 00:23:17,324 --> 00:23:20,284 Speaker 2: can be you know, titans of industry, tech moguls, it 442 00:23:20,284 --> 00:23:21,524 Speaker 2: doesn't it doesn't really matter. 443 00:23:21,724 --> 00:23:23,364 Speaker 1: But people who wield a lot of power. 444 00:23:24,604 --> 00:23:28,444 Speaker 2: You have to kind of walk a line between being 445 00:23:28,724 --> 00:23:31,244 Speaker 2: you know, a good journalist and having access to them. 446 00:23:32,004 --> 00:23:34,004 Speaker 2: And there are the journalists who say, yeah, you know, 447 00:23:34,044 --> 00:23:36,404 Speaker 2: I'm not going to ask, you know, as many hardball 448 00:23:36,564 --> 00:23:39,444 Speaker 2: questions because I want to be able to get these 449 00:23:39,444 --> 00:23:42,004 Speaker 2: interviews in the future. And if I become known as someone, 450 00:23:42,364 --> 00:23:44,684 Speaker 2: you know who eviscerates people, I'm not going to the 451 00:23:44,764 --> 00:23:47,644 Speaker 2: counterpart to that is that there are all these brilliant 452 00:23:47,884 --> 00:23:51,124 Speaker 2: journalists who ask hardball questions and who still get access. 453 00:23:51,444 --> 00:23:51,644 Speaker 4: Right. 454 00:23:51,884 --> 00:23:55,284 Speaker 2: So it's not an either or situation. It just depends 455 00:23:55,324 --> 00:23:57,444 Speaker 2: on how good you are and how talented you are. 456 00:23:57,604 --> 00:23:58,284 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, so. 457 00:23:58,404 --> 00:24:02,844 Speaker 3: One extreme right is like Michael Wolfe is a journalist 458 00:24:02,924 --> 00:24:08,284 Speaker 3: who was advising Jeffrey Epstein on PR strategy, Right, I 459 00:24:08,284 --> 00:24:09,404 Speaker 3: think that's fucking insane. 460 00:24:10,404 --> 00:24:13,644 Speaker 4: But Michael Wolfe is somebody. 461 00:24:13,684 --> 00:24:17,164 Speaker 3: Who I don't think would ever tell you that he's 462 00:24:17,204 --> 00:24:21,844 Speaker 3: totally above board, right, he'd say that I'm an access peddler, 463 00:24:22,084 --> 00:24:25,244 Speaker 3: right in that sense, I'm telling you what I am, right, 464 00:24:25,284 --> 00:24:28,484 Speaker 3: I'm transparent about it, and but I wanted to get 465 00:24:28,484 --> 00:24:30,644 Speaker 3: scoops of information that, like other people. 466 00:24:30,484 --> 00:24:35,444 Speaker 4: Might might not write. You know. That's the more extreme 467 00:24:35,524 --> 00:24:36,444 Speaker 4: form of it, right, you know. 468 00:24:36,484 --> 00:24:39,604 Speaker 3: The one that I think is more above board and 469 00:24:39,684 --> 00:24:41,684 Speaker 3: someone who deeply has my respect is like, you know, 470 00:24:41,924 --> 00:24:45,844 Speaker 3: Maggie Haberman of the New York Times, who has covered 471 00:24:45,884 --> 00:24:48,284 Speaker 3: Trump for years and years and years, going back to 472 00:24:48,324 --> 00:24:50,524 Speaker 3: like the New York City Beat for the Daily she 473 00:24:50,684 --> 00:24:52,564 Speaker 3: used to work out and things like that, right, and 474 00:24:52,684 --> 00:24:55,164 Speaker 3: like that's a little more complicated, right, if you cultivate 475 00:24:56,084 --> 00:24:59,524 Speaker 3: a relationship. I mean sometimes you know, it's also just 476 00:24:59,604 --> 00:25:02,804 Speaker 3: by the way in like a lower six context, like 477 00:25:02,844 --> 00:25:06,444 Speaker 3: sports media for instance, where like sometimes you might have 478 00:25:07,604 --> 00:25:10,684 Speaker 3: what are sometimes called like beat sweeteners. 479 00:25:10,764 --> 00:25:11,764 Speaker 4: Right, Like maybe. 480 00:25:11,484 --> 00:25:16,644 Speaker 3: The the general manager is trying to send a message 481 00:25:16,684 --> 00:25:19,084 Speaker 3: to like one of his players, right, and the journalist 482 00:25:19,204 --> 00:25:22,484 Speaker 3: kind of reports the story that like you know, so 483 00:25:22,564 --> 00:25:23,964 Speaker 3: and so's on the outs, or so and so is 484 00:25:24,004 --> 00:25:25,844 Speaker 3: being considered being traded, right, and you're kind of it's 485 00:25:25,884 --> 00:25:28,244 Speaker 3: you know, you're laundering a pr message kind of coded 486 00:25:28,244 --> 00:25:30,764 Speaker 3: as journalism or things like that, right in exchange for 487 00:25:30,924 --> 00:25:36,004 Speaker 3: like getting like the scoop later on, Right when there's 488 00:25:36,004 --> 00:25:37,564 Speaker 3: a big trade, you're the first to know it. 489 00:25:37,644 --> 00:25:39,724 Speaker 4: Right when someone gets fired, you're the first to know it. 490 00:25:39,764 --> 00:25:41,004 Speaker 3: If you have a source who doesn't give a lot 491 00:25:41,004 --> 00:25:43,124 Speaker 3: of interviews to principles, and you get that interview, so 492 00:25:43,124 --> 00:25:47,204 Speaker 3: it can be like a little bit transactional but but 493 00:25:47,444 --> 00:25:50,484 Speaker 3: you know, the transparency is a big part of it. 494 00:25:50,564 --> 00:25:52,164 Speaker 3: When you have your own newsletter, it's easier to be 495 00:25:52,204 --> 00:25:54,204 Speaker 3: transparent say okay, I do this and that and the other, 496 00:25:54,284 --> 00:25:56,124 Speaker 3: and here's what I believe and here. 497 00:25:55,964 --> 00:25:56,684 Speaker 4: Are my rules. 498 00:25:57,404 --> 00:26:02,084 Speaker 3: But yeah, I think journalists are probably more ethical than 499 00:26:03,124 --> 00:26:06,724 Speaker 3: they've ever been about kind of the journalism handbook rules, right. 500 00:26:06,724 --> 00:26:10,044 Speaker 4: I think they're also by it. And some of that 501 00:26:10,084 --> 00:26:11,524 Speaker 4: bias comes from the fact. 502 00:26:11,364 --> 00:26:16,284 Speaker 3: That like that there are fewer and fewer traditional journalists 503 00:26:16,284 --> 00:26:20,244 Speaker 3: that like you're kind of selecting for people who you know, 504 00:26:20,284 --> 00:26:21,724 Speaker 3: it's not you know, if you go back and like 505 00:26:21,724 --> 00:26:24,364 Speaker 3: look at journalists from like the nineteen eighties or something, right, 506 00:26:24,644 --> 00:26:27,564 Speaker 3: it was kind of almost like a working class profession. 507 00:26:27,724 --> 00:26:29,724 Speaker 3: Right now, it's like exclusively kind of like the ranks 508 00:26:29,764 --> 00:26:32,404 Speaker 3: of like the college educated, in part because, like, you know, 509 00:26:33,924 --> 00:26:35,444 Speaker 3: it's a tough career. 510 00:26:36,564 --> 00:26:37,844 Speaker 4: Starting out at. 511 00:26:37,724 --> 00:26:40,404 Speaker 3: Least, it's such tough career after that unless you become 512 00:26:41,084 --> 00:26:43,444 Speaker 3: a real star, in which case there is some money 513 00:26:43,524 --> 00:26:45,564 Speaker 3: or real money. Right, So you kind of have to 514 00:26:45,564 --> 00:26:47,924 Speaker 3: be from like almost like a privileged background to like 515 00:26:48,604 --> 00:26:50,884 Speaker 3: to tolerate, you know, living in a big city and 516 00:26:51,364 --> 00:26:56,804 Speaker 3: and having these kind of low incomes often early in life. 517 00:26:57,044 --> 00:26:58,244 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is interesting. 518 00:26:58,644 --> 00:27:02,244 Speaker 2: I don't know, Nate, if you've ever read Robert Carrow's 519 00:27:02,284 --> 00:27:06,444 Speaker 2: memoirs of how he got into journalism. But you know, 520 00:27:06,524 --> 00:27:09,404 Speaker 2: there's a very funny story how his kind of first 521 00:27:10,644 --> 00:27:15,004 Speaker 2: big job he was hired as a joke because the 522 00:27:15,204 --> 00:27:19,564 Speaker 2: editor would never hire anyone from like an Ivy league 523 00:27:19,564 --> 00:27:22,684 Speaker 2: background or who was well educated, because he, you know, 524 00:27:22,764 --> 00:27:25,324 Speaker 2: he had this kind of notion that, like, to be 525 00:27:25,364 --> 00:27:27,284 Speaker 2: a good journalist you had to be able to kind 526 00:27:27,324 --> 00:27:29,964 Speaker 2: of get your feet on the ground, work hard, kind 527 00:27:29,964 --> 00:27:33,724 Speaker 2: of get your hands dirty, like those boys from like 528 00:27:33,964 --> 00:27:37,484 Speaker 2: well educated families couldn't hack it. And Robert Carroll went 529 00:27:37,484 --> 00:27:43,044 Speaker 2: to Princeton, and while this editor was on vacation, his 530 00:27:43,164 --> 00:27:46,124 Speaker 2: staff decided to play a practical joke on him and 531 00:27:46,244 --> 00:27:50,164 Speaker 2: hired Caro, his Princeton graduate, who like he would never 532 00:27:50,244 --> 00:27:54,244 Speaker 2: have hired otherwise. And obviously Caro became a superstar and 533 00:27:54,524 --> 00:27:57,724 Speaker 2: is probably one of the most respected names in journalism 534 00:27:57,804 --> 00:28:00,684 Speaker 2: by the way, Nate, someone who has also kind of 535 00:28:00,724 --> 00:28:04,564 Speaker 2: traded on access to be able to kind of craft 536 00:28:04,644 --> 00:28:08,164 Speaker 2: these stories that no one else could get, like the 537 00:28:08,244 --> 00:28:11,284 Speaker 2: guy was able to get access to Robert Moses, right, 538 00:28:11,364 --> 00:28:14,604 Speaker 2: that nobody could gain access to. And believe me, he 539 00:28:14,644 --> 00:28:19,284 Speaker 2: did not paint a very sympathetic portrait at the end 540 00:28:19,324 --> 00:28:22,364 Speaker 2: of the day in The Power Broker, which was, you know, 541 00:28:22,484 --> 00:28:26,684 Speaker 2: kind of this absolute feat of journalism. But Moses gave 542 00:28:26,764 --> 00:28:29,284 Speaker 2: him access for a long time. And the reason I 543 00:28:29,324 --> 00:28:33,324 Speaker 2: love this story Caro couldn't get to Moses originally, right 544 00:28:33,364 --> 00:28:35,884 Speaker 2: because Moses wouldn't you know, Moses knew what was good 545 00:28:35,884 --> 00:28:37,684 Speaker 2: for him and did want to talk to him, And 546 00:28:37,764 --> 00:28:40,524 Speaker 2: so Caro just drew circles of like, who you know, 547 00:28:40,564 --> 00:28:43,644 Speaker 2: who can I get to because Moses would say, like, 548 00:28:44,164 --> 00:28:45,964 Speaker 2: you know, no one in my family can talk to you, 549 00:28:46,004 --> 00:28:48,044 Speaker 2: Like he would basically prevent people from talking to him. 550 00:28:48,204 --> 00:28:50,324 Speaker 2: And so Caro like went out and out and out 551 00:28:50,404 --> 00:28:52,364 Speaker 2: and finally got people who'd talk to him. And then 552 00:28:52,604 --> 00:28:54,844 Speaker 2: once some people talk to him, more people talk to him. 553 00:28:54,884 --> 00:28:57,124 Speaker 2: And then eventually Moses was like, shit, all these people 554 00:28:57,204 --> 00:29:00,444 Speaker 2: are talking to him, I better talk to him, and uh. 555 00:29:01,004 --> 00:29:04,484 Speaker 2: And that's how you do it, right, Like that's good journalism, 556 00:29:04,524 --> 00:29:07,444 Speaker 2: not saying like I'll you know, I'll treat you nicely 557 00:29:07,564 --> 00:29:09,244 Speaker 2: and I'll i'll poet a Rosie Pilch. 558 00:29:09,644 --> 00:29:09,844 Speaker 1: Sure. 559 00:29:10,124 --> 00:29:13,844 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, obviously one technique you can use is saying, well, 560 00:29:14,684 --> 00:29:17,164 Speaker 3: I've talked to all the other principles for the story, right, 561 00:29:17,444 --> 00:29:19,164 Speaker 3: and so you know, I want to make sure that 562 00:29:19,324 --> 00:29:23,164 Speaker 3: your viewpoint is adequately represented. Can I at the very 563 00:29:23,244 --> 00:29:25,804 Speaker 3: least run these things by you kind of thing? 564 00:29:25,884 --> 00:29:26,084 Speaker 4: Right? 565 00:29:26,244 --> 00:29:29,404 Speaker 3: You know, I have definitely experienced things where like if 566 00:29:29,444 --> 00:29:33,084 Speaker 3: you don't talk to a journalist, it feels like your 567 00:29:33,084 --> 00:29:35,084 Speaker 3: treatment can be worse, right, Like I don't know if 568 00:29:35,084 --> 00:29:38,884 Speaker 3: it's quite like retaliation or things like that, right, but 569 00:29:38,924 --> 00:29:40,884 Speaker 3: they might have a little bit of a chip on 570 00:29:40,924 --> 00:29:41,764 Speaker 3: their shoulder, you know. 571 00:29:41,804 --> 00:29:42,724 Speaker 4: On the other hand, like. 572 00:29:44,284 --> 00:29:48,364 Speaker 3: You know, like journalists can very much cherry pick stories, 573 00:29:48,404 --> 00:29:52,044 Speaker 3: and if you give them twenty minutes worth of an interview, right, 574 00:29:52,164 --> 00:29:55,364 Speaker 3: then you know, maybe one or two quotes will appear 575 00:29:55,844 --> 00:29:56,364 Speaker 3: in the story. 576 00:29:56,444 --> 00:29:56,564 Speaker 4: Right. 577 00:29:56,604 --> 00:29:59,764 Speaker 3: So I'm actually pretty guarded about like which journalists I 578 00:29:59,804 --> 00:30:01,564 Speaker 3: talk to you on the record or off the record, right, 579 00:30:01,844 --> 00:30:04,244 Speaker 3: because I'm like, Okay, say what you want and if 580 00:30:04,284 --> 00:30:05,804 Speaker 3: you're full of shit, and I'll blast you on my 581 00:30:05,804 --> 00:30:08,764 Speaker 3: substack or on Twitter. Right, if you do a good job, 582 00:30:08,764 --> 00:30:11,044 Speaker 3: then I'll link to it and complement the story, right, 583 00:30:12,764 --> 00:30:14,844 Speaker 3: you know. Look, one other thing that helps Nutsy to 584 00:30:14,884 --> 00:30:20,004 Speaker 3: bring this story back a little bit, because most journalists 585 00:30:20,684 --> 00:30:24,924 Speaker 3: do lean liberal, democratic, progressive left, whatever you want. 586 00:30:24,804 --> 00:30:25,164 Speaker 4: To call it. 587 00:30:25,404 --> 00:30:29,564 Speaker 3: If you're someone who is seen as as friendly enough 588 00:30:29,644 --> 00:30:33,004 Speaker 3: towards non liberals, whether in the form of RFK Junior 589 00:30:33,564 --> 00:30:36,884 Speaker 3: or the kind of Trump Maga clan, right, that presents 590 00:30:36,924 --> 00:30:41,084 Speaker 3: a comparative advantage potentially, Right, It's like, you're gonna have 591 00:30:41,124 --> 00:30:43,564 Speaker 3: access to these people and like and kind of how 592 00:30:43,684 --> 00:30:45,524 Speaker 3: much you're I mean, one thing about this too, is 593 00:30:45,564 --> 00:30:50,284 Speaker 3: like how much you're kind of like pantomiming being in 594 00:30:50,484 --> 00:30:54,844 Speaker 3: with this kind of rebellious I guess maga crowd versus it, 595 00:30:55,004 --> 00:30:57,844 Speaker 3: you know, pantomiming versus being real. I mean sometimes people 596 00:30:57,924 --> 00:31:02,004 Speaker 3: kind of trade on that ambiguity a little bit, right, Like, 597 00:31:02,084 --> 00:31:06,764 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, Trump has taken some very funny lines, right. 598 00:31:06,844 --> 00:31:07,044 Speaker 4: You know. 599 00:31:08,724 --> 00:31:10,964 Speaker 3: Pete Haggson, you know, was the Fox News and if 600 00:31:10,964 --> 00:31:13,364 Speaker 3: you call him a journalist exactly. Now he's the Secretary 601 00:31:13,444 --> 00:31:20,764 Speaker 3: of War apparently committing alleged, allegedly committing some war crimes 602 00:31:20,804 --> 00:31:25,244 Speaker 3: on these yeah, you know, drugs, you see allegedly you know, 603 00:31:25,724 --> 00:31:28,764 Speaker 3: you know, I don't know why you wouldn't trust a 604 00:31:28,804 --> 00:31:32,364 Speaker 3: former Fox News correspondent with a drinking problem. 605 00:31:31,964 --> 00:31:38,204 Speaker 4: But allegedly allegedly allegedly Pushkin lawyers. But yeah, so the 606 00:31:38,244 --> 00:31:39,484 Speaker 4: lines can be can be blurry? 607 00:31:40,804 --> 00:31:49,764 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, they absolutely can And we'll be back right 608 00:31:49,804 --> 00:31:50,124 Speaker 1: after this. 609 00:32:01,124 --> 00:32:04,204 Speaker 2: One of the things that we've been careful about in 610 00:32:04,244 --> 00:32:07,364 Speaker 2: this conversation, but I'm just gonna call it out now, 611 00:32:08,404 --> 00:32:11,564 Speaker 2: is that, you know, we've focused on kind of these 612 00:32:11,724 --> 00:32:16,324 Speaker 2: broader issues as opposed to like the sexualization of this 613 00:32:16,484 --> 00:32:20,804 Speaker 2: of the thing right where like she allegedly slept with 614 00:32:22,964 --> 00:32:29,804 Speaker 2: Sandford Mark Sandford according to Liza and you know, sent 615 00:32:30,564 --> 00:32:34,204 Speaker 2: sexts and all of these things to RFK Junior. And 616 00:32:34,404 --> 00:32:37,564 Speaker 2: I think that that's actually, like, as a female, that 617 00:32:37,644 --> 00:32:40,244 Speaker 2: really pisses me off because they are all these tropes 618 00:32:40,684 --> 00:32:44,684 Speaker 2: right in media that oh, like she who'd you sleep 619 00:32:44,724 --> 00:32:46,884 Speaker 2: with to get to where you are? And like, you know, 620 00:32:47,004 --> 00:32:50,124 Speaker 2: so I hate when people actually do that because it's 621 00:32:50,164 --> 00:32:52,844 Speaker 2: so rare, Like I don't actually think that you know this, 622 00:32:52,844 --> 00:32:56,924 Speaker 2: this does not happen. And by the way, Olivia over, 623 00:32:57,804 --> 00:32:59,724 Speaker 2: I think this was like a decade ago when A 624 00:32:59,884 --> 00:33:02,804 Speaker 2: House of Cards was on air. If you remember, this 625 00:33:02,924 --> 00:33:07,764 Speaker 2: was a show with Kevin Spacey also who then disappeared 626 00:33:07,804 --> 00:33:11,404 Speaker 2: and was written off the show after sexual misconduct allegations 627 00:33:11,764 --> 00:33:14,324 Speaker 2: came out about him, but there was a plotline I 628 00:33:14,324 --> 00:33:17,524 Speaker 2: believe this was the first season where he ended up, 629 00:33:17,764 --> 00:33:20,964 Speaker 2: you know, sleeping with a journalist. They had a mutually 630 00:33:20,964 --> 00:33:25,444 Speaker 2: beneficial relationship, and Olivia Knutsy tweeted out a photograph of 631 00:33:25,444 --> 00:33:28,884 Speaker 2: this journalist and said, why does Hollywood think female reporters 632 00:33:28,924 --> 00:33:31,484 Speaker 2: sleep with their sources? And this is a tweet that 633 00:33:31,524 --> 00:33:35,164 Speaker 2: people then you know, dredged up in the last month 634 00:33:35,244 --> 00:33:38,244 Speaker 2: being like, hey, Olivia, you know this is this is 635 00:33:38,324 --> 00:33:41,244 Speaker 2: very interesting, and so I just I do want to 636 00:33:41,324 --> 00:33:43,444 Speaker 2: kind of point out that this in this particular case, 637 00:33:43,764 --> 00:33:46,844 Speaker 2: like even more lines were crossed and as a woman, 638 00:33:47,004 --> 00:33:51,164 Speaker 2: like it really just it really upsets me. But the 639 00:33:51,484 --> 00:33:53,644 Speaker 2: heart of the story doesn't have anything to do with that. 640 00:33:53,804 --> 00:33:56,004 Speaker 2: And I think that there was a lot of impropriety 641 00:33:56,004 --> 00:33:59,604 Speaker 2: even before we talk about the sexual impropriety, and there 642 00:33:59,604 --> 00:34:02,604 Speaker 2: doesn't have to be anything sexual when with all of 643 00:34:02,644 --> 00:34:04,884 Speaker 2: the things that we've been talking about, right with how 644 00:34:04,924 --> 00:34:08,964 Speaker 2: you pedal access, how you walk that ethical line, and 645 00:34:08,964 --> 00:34:11,644 Speaker 2: whether or not you're transparent about it, right because you 646 00:34:11,684 --> 00:34:14,884 Speaker 2: can absolutely report about people you're friends with if you say, hey, 647 00:34:15,044 --> 00:34:17,244 Speaker 2: you know, like I'm writing a piece about Nate Silver. 648 00:34:17,364 --> 00:34:20,284 Speaker 2: We're co hosts of a podcast and we're friends, right, 649 00:34:20,324 --> 00:34:22,724 Speaker 2: and we've known each other for years. So those are 650 00:34:22,764 --> 00:34:26,324 Speaker 2: all my disclaimers, and here's our interview, right, Like, that's 651 00:34:26,404 --> 00:34:31,324 Speaker 2: perfectly okay. I've interviewed you, you've interviewed me. Like, that's cool, right, 652 00:34:32,084 --> 00:34:34,484 Speaker 2: as long as but if I said I've never spoken 653 00:34:34,484 --> 00:34:37,084 Speaker 2: to Nate in my life, like this is a completely 654 00:34:37,124 --> 00:34:40,564 Speaker 2: professional thing, right, and I'm going to give you an 655 00:34:40,684 --> 00:34:46,204 Speaker 2: the unvarnished truth behind the Silver bulletin, then then that's 656 00:34:46,204 --> 00:34:49,044 Speaker 2: a little bit disingenuous, right, a lot bit disingenuous. 657 00:34:49,244 --> 00:34:54,444 Speaker 3: I don't know how much sleeping around there is between 658 00:34:54,524 --> 00:34:56,884 Speaker 3: journalists and sources in the industry. I mean I would 659 00:34:56,884 --> 00:35:02,524 Speaker 3: I my default would be to say it's not that common, right, 660 00:35:02,524 --> 00:35:04,484 Speaker 3: but I've never been on like a beat, right, Like, 661 00:35:04,524 --> 00:35:09,684 Speaker 3: if you're going out and reporting on the campaign trail, right, 662 00:35:11,684 --> 00:35:15,604 Speaker 3: there's probably some hanky panky there among reporters, certainly, Right, 663 00:35:15,644 --> 00:35:19,244 Speaker 3: you're kind of in this just say Stockholm syndrome situation, right, 664 00:35:19,244 --> 00:35:21,764 Speaker 3: but you know you can treat me are in Iowa 665 00:35:21,804 --> 00:35:24,284 Speaker 3: and New Hampshire for months at a time. They're younger 666 00:35:24,284 --> 00:35:26,564 Speaker 3: people that are kind of younger campaign staffers, but not 667 00:35:26,964 --> 00:35:30,684 Speaker 3: with the not with the principles of the story, not 668 00:35:30,764 --> 00:35:36,124 Speaker 3: with the RFK Juniors and Mark Sanford's and yeah, but look, 669 00:35:36,244 --> 00:35:37,884 Speaker 3: I mean there's like too much of a fucking like 670 00:35:39,084 --> 00:35:43,724 Speaker 3: digital fripprint now too, you know what I mean. But 671 00:35:43,884 --> 00:35:46,124 Speaker 3: some people live for the drama, you know, some people 672 00:35:46,244 --> 00:35:50,244 Speaker 3: love to get discovered, Like I imagine that, like Olivia 673 00:35:50,284 --> 00:35:53,844 Speaker 3: Nutci is not like not terribly unhappy right now. 674 00:35:54,084 --> 00:35:55,604 Speaker 2: I don't know, she has a plus your job at 675 00:35:55,684 --> 00:35:58,484 Speaker 2: Vanity Fair job, right. 676 00:35:58,364 --> 00:36:00,924 Speaker 4: But she'll start, ah, she'll start a sub stuck. 677 00:36:02,124 --> 00:36:03,604 Speaker 1: And people will subscribe to it. 678 00:36:05,084 --> 00:36:09,724 Speaker 3: Did you'd read RFK juniors erotic poetry? I did you 679 00:36:09,844 --> 00:36:11,724 Speaker 3: to not give us some one star rating? So we're 680 00:36:11,724 --> 00:36:12,404 Speaker 3: not going to be there for I. 681 00:36:12,444 --> 00:36:19,404 Speaker 2: Repeat, I unfortunately read the poetry, and I'm sorry that 682 00:36:19,484 --> 00:36:21,724 Speaker 2: I did, because I can't te It's one of those 683 00:36:21,764 --> 00:36:24,404 Speaker 2: things that once you read, you can't unread, Like once 684 00:36:24,404 --> 00:36:26,444 Speaker 2: you see something, you can't unsee it, and sometimes you 685 00:36:26,524 --> 00:36:29,964 Speaker 2: just wish you could. It's now in my brain. But yes, 686 00:36:30,124 --> 00:36:35,244 Speaker 2: so this this whole thing, you know is is problematic 687 00:36:35,324 --> 00:36:38,404 Speaker 2: on a lot of levels. And by the way, though, Nate, 688 00:36:38,444 --> 00:36:41,164 Speaker 2: I think it shows that We're in a very different 689 00:36:41,244 --> 00:36:44,524 Speaker 2: journalistic era than we were like even five years ago. 690 00:36:44,604 --> 00:36:47,524 Speaker 2: The fact that you know, people are like, oh, like 691 00:36:47,564 --> 00:36:49,844 Speaker 2: Olivia was canceled, No, she wasn't, Like she got let 692 00:36:49,924 --> 00:36:51,684 Speaker 2: go from New York Magazine. Now she has a best 693 00:36:51,684 --> 00:36:55,604 Speaker 2: selling book and you know is at Vanity Fair. So like, 694 00:36:56,204 --> 00:37:01,244 Speaker 2: you know, they're there. There's a very interesting standard being 695 00:37:01,324 --> 00:37:03,844 Speaker 2: used here, and I'm very curious to see if she's 696 00:37:03,884 --> 00:37:05,364 Speaker 2: going to hold on to her job and if not, 697 00:37:05,444 --> 00:37:08,284 Speaker 2: what's going to be next, Because I do think that 698 00:37:08,404 --> 00:37:11,524 Speaker 2: we are living at a time where journalistic ethics are 699 00:37:11,564 --> 00:37:16,924 Speaker 2: incredibly important, and being someone who people can look down 700 00:37:16,924 --> 00:37:19,404 Speaker 2: and say, Okay, this is someone who is ethical. I 701 00:37:19,444 --> 00:37:22,204 Speaker 2: can trust what they say. I can trust talking to 702 00:37:22,244 --> 00:37:25,284 Speaker 2: them right that they're not going to misrepresent me, They're 703 00:37:25,324 --> 00:37:27,564 Speaker 2: not going to quote me out of context, They're not 704 00:37:27,604 --> 00:37:30,964 Speaker 2: going to do something underhanded. I think that that currency 705 00:37:30,964 --> 00:37:34,644 Speaker 2: has always been important, but it's it's even more important 706 00:37:34,684 --> 00:37:37,124 Speaker 2: right now when it's hard to kind of trust your 707 00:37:37,124 --> 00:37:40,204 Speaker 2: eyes and ears. And so I hope that the media 708 00:37:40,364 --> 00:37:43,124 Speaker 2: and that I hope that everyone behaves accordingly. And I 709 00:37:43,164 --> 00:37:45,764 Speaker 2: do think that for the most part, journalists do behave accordingly. 710 00:37:47,244 --> 00:37:48,684 Speaker 4: Yeah, look I mean she might have. 711 00:37:48,724 --> 00:37:50,524 Speaker 3: I was going to say, you know, look in an 712 00:37:50,524 --> 00:37:53,444 Speaker 3: earlier era then should be it's going to say black ball, 713 00:37:53,484 --> 00:37:55,044 Speaker 3: but like, I don't think it's really blackball. And like 714 00:37:55,084 --> 00:37:56,484 Speaker 3: the you know, if I were working with the New 715 00:37:56,524 --> 00:37:59,484 Speaker 3: York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal or 716 00:37:59,644 --> 00:38:02,044 Speaker 3: the or the even the New York Post or whatever, right, 717 00:38:02,164 --> 00:38:05,284 Speaker 3: I would I would not hire her. There're too many 718 00:38:05,684 --> 00:38:07,924 Speaker 3: check her things on the resume now by far right, 719 00:38:08,604 --> 00:38:10,284 Speaker 3: but you know, they don't keep as much as they 720 00:38:10,284 --> 00:38:13,084 Speaker 3: once did. You know, I do wonder somebody who kind 721 00:38:13,084 --> 00:38:18,804 Speaker 3: of like who relies on access and juicy, gossipy tidbits. 722 00:38:18,884 --> 00:38:19,004 Speaker 4: Right. 723 00:38:20,644 --> 00:38:24,404 Speaker 3: You know, sometimes the writing and the thinking isn't interesting 724 00:38:24,524 --> 00:38:25,484 Speaker 3: enough on its own. 725 00:38:25,764 --> 00:38:27,484 Speaker 4: People don't seem to have. Like she wrote a memoir, 726 00:38:27,524 --> 00:38:29,284 Speaker 4: people don't seem to like the writing and that memoir. 727 00:38:29,884 --> 00:38:32,044 Speaker 2: I didn't read the memoir, but I did read Olivia 728 00:38:32,084 --> 00:38:36,604 Speaker 2: Nuncy's excerpt in Vanity Fair and it was unreadable. Just 729 00:38:36,644 --> 00:38:38,844 Speaker 2: the writing was very, very bad, and it was very 730 00:38:38,884 --> 00:38:41,164 Speaker 2: hard oftentimes for me to follow what was going on. 731 00:38:41,604 --> 00:38:43,884 Speaker 2: I think her writing in New York Magazine, she had 732 00:38:44,124 --> 00:38:48,524 Speaker 2: great writing there, and maybe it's her, Maybe it's her editors. Because, 733 00:38:48,604 --> 00:38:50,684 Speaker 2: by the way, as we wrap up, shout out to 734 00:38:50,724 --> 00:38:54,484 Speaker 2: good editors everywhere. You can make writings so much better. 735 00:38:54,764 --> 00:38:57,804 Speaker 2: You know, this is why, this is why the good 736 00:38:57,884 --> 00:39:00,724 Speaker 2: outlets are good, right, They hire very good people who 737 00:39:00,804 --> 00:39:04,684 Speaker 2: can make your writing shine. On that note, I think 738 00:39:05,404 --> 00:39:10,324 Speaker 2: this will not be a political slash journalist stick scandal 739 00:39:10,364 --> 00:39:12,844 Speaker 2: podcasts going forward, but I do think that this was 740 00:39:12,884 --> 00:39:15,124 Speaker 2: important to cover. You never know, you never know yet, 741 00:39:15,204 --> 00:39:17,404 Speaker 2: maybe you know, if this is our most popular episode today, 742 00:39:17,444 --> 00:39:19,524 Speaker 2: maybe we're just going to do a whole pivot. But 743 00:39:19,604 --> 00:39:24,204 Speaker 2: it does cover a lot of really interesting questions that 744 00:39:24,324 --> 00:39:27,844 Speaker 2: are Risky Business adjacent and you know, important things that 745 00:39:27,924 --> 00:39:30,764 Speaker 2: Nate and I both have to ask ourselves and deal 746 00:39:30,804 --> 00:39:31,644 Speaker 2: with all the time. 747 00:39:31,764 --> 00:39:36,404 Speaker 3: If you if you followed my advice and you're flying 748 00:39:36,764 --> 00:39:39,604 Speaker 3: to Boston, you're already there, you already have the descent. 749 00:39:39,644 --> 00:39:42,404 Speaker 3: They're telling you put your laptop away, right, and so 750 00:39:42,444 --> 00:39:43,964 Speaker 3: we should probably we should probably get going. 751 00:39:44,764 --> 00:39:46,084 Speaker 1: All right, sounds good. 752 00:39:51,124 --> 00:39:52,884 Speaker 2: Let us know what you think of the show. Reach 753 00:39:52,924 --> 00:39:56,724 Speaker 2: out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot fm. 754 00:39:56,844 --> 00:40:00,404 Speaker 2: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova. 755 00:39:59,644 --> 00:40:02,404 Speaker 4: And by me Nate Silver. The show was a cool 756 00:40:02,404 --> 00:40:06,404 Speaker 4: production of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced 757 00:40:06,404 --> 00:40:10,764 Speaker 4: by Isaac Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya girl Lydia, 758 00:40:10,844 --> 00:40:13,764 Speaker 4: Jean Kott and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our 759 00:40:13,764 --> 00:40:17,564 Speaker 4: executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Bruger. 760 00:40:18,164 --> 00:40:20,404 Speaker 2: If you like the show, please rate and review us 761 00:40:20,404 --> 00:40:23,084 Speaker 2: so other people can find us too, But once again, 762 00:40:23,204 --> 00:40:25,004 Speaker 2: only if you like us. We don't want those bad 763 00:40:25,044 --> 00:40:27,204 Speaker 2: reviews out there. Thanks for tuning in.