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Speaker 1: My dad was a police officer.

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Speaker 2: He actually worked at Nearmark Police Department for seven years

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Speaker 2: when I was a kid growing up, and then he

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Speaker 2: ultimately left and he went to Metro Dad Police Department,

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Speaker 2: which happens to be the same department that Gil Fernandez

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Speaker 2: worked for.

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Speaker 3: By March of twenty twenty four, Detective Danny Smith had

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Speaker 3: been the lead investigator on the Billy Halpern cold case

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Speaker 3: for eighteen months, knowing that his father had been a

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Speaker 3: Miramar police officer in nineteen eighty six at the time

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Speaker 3: of the original investigation, I asked Danny if there was

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Speaker 3: anything he would like to ask his father if he

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Speaker 3: was still around.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious as to the general sense of maybe urgency

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Speaker 2: on clearing it.

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Speaker 1: Was this something where it was all hands on deck.

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Speaker 2: Would they just say put all your stuff down with

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Speaker 2: everyone to work this or was it just like another

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Speaker 2: murder violent eighties and we'll do what we can and

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Speaker 2: then we'll move on.

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Speaker 3: Over the course of his own investigation, Danny's been able

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Speaker 3: to verify a lot of what was in the original

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Speaker 3: case file. The detectives that were Billy's case in nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty six were thorough and buy the book, but with

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Speaker 3: everything that we've learned about this case, it still bothers

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Speaker 3: us that Billy Hoppin's murder was never cleared and that

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Speaker 3: his killers were never ideed or held accountable.

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Speaker 2: I think that there was a small portion of that

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Speaker 2: where the investigators knew who were involved, they knew the

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Speaker 2: crew that was involved, and they felt good getting at

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Speaker 2: the very least kill Fernandez and Bert Christie indicted and

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Speaker 2: then found guilty.

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Speaker 3: That's a sentiment shared by Billy's friend Dave Fosano.

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Speaker 4: I think that it was true that they didn't pursue

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Speaker 4: anything else because they're doing life, so that the cops

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Speaker 4: and detectives just didn't pursue anything else. I believe that.

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Speaker 5: Do you think that's right?

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Speaker 4: No, because those families don't have clothing. Well, I'm almost

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Speaker 4: ready to cry, I am.

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Speaker 6: I'm just picturning. He was such a nice guy. I

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Speaker 6: loved him like a brother. He was very good to me.

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Speaker 6: We had a lot of good times.

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Speaker 4: I wish he was alive today because we would still

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Speaker 4: be by my side and he'd be so proud of me.

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Speaker 3: Jil Fernandez and Burt Christie's conviction on the Danger Road

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Speaker 3: murders brought an end to a complicated investigation, but it

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Speaker 3: also left some important unanswered questions, like who stormed into

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Speaker 3: Billy Halpern's town home, strangled him and then cut his

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Speaker 3: throat so deeply he was nearly decapitated, What did he

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Speaker 3: actually know that made him a target for such a

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Speaker 3: brutal murder? And is it possible that someone within law

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Speaker 3: enforcement had tipped off the ex cop Gil Fernandez about

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Speaker 3: which members of the Apollo Jim posed a threat to

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Speaker 3: his criminal enterprise.

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Speaker 5: Danny was determined to keep digging.

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Speaker 3: I'm Scott Weinberger, investigative journalist and former deputy sheriff, and

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Speaker 3: this is cold blooded the Apollo Jim murders. Harry Collier

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Speaker 3: was a reputed hit man from the Northeast, with an

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Speaker 3: obsession with knives and a close relationship with Gil Fernandez

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Speaker 3: and Bert Christie, and in nineteen eighty six, he was

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Speaker 3: also married with his first child on the way. When

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Speaker 3: Detective Danny Smith spoke to his widow, she confirmed that

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Speaker 3: Collier's behavior had become erratic and suspicious in the months

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Speaker 3: around Billy's murder and leading up to his own, whether

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Speaker 3: that was due to his steroid use or his new

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Speaker 3: job working for gil Fernandez doing what he called private investigations.

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Speaker 3: She was never sure, but she told Danny that there

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Speaker 3: were telltale signs that he was involved in something criminal.

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Speaker 3: Guns stashed at their home, new cars, secretive late night

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Speaker 3: phone calls, and even talk of one last big score,

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Speaker 3: one that Harry Collier never returned from. But Collier's widow

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Speaker 3: also made Danny aware of a piece of evidence that

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Speaker 3: may prove critical improving his involvement in Billy Halpern's murder,

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Speaker 3: a blood stained towel she discovered in her home shortly

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Speaker 3: after her husband was killed. It felt like a long shot,

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Speaker 3: but if forensic analysts could pull Billy's DNA from the

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Speaker 3: forty year old stains, it would be the first direct

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Speaker 3: connection between Collier and the crime scene and all but

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Speaker 3: proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Collier was indeed one

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Speaker 3: of Billy's killers.

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Speaker 7: It's been almost a year that we've been actively involved

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Speaker 7: in this case.

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Speaker 3: Christina Savito at DNA Labs International is an expert in

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Speaker 3: collecting and identifying DNA, and her dedication to this case

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Speaker 3: has made her an invaluable member of the team.

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Speaker 7: The first piece of evidence that we looked at back

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Speaker 7: in March of last year, were two pieces of electrical tape,

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Speaker 7: so there was electrical tape from the left wrist and

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Speaker 7: then electrical tape from the right wrist, which had also

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Speaker 7: a rubber glove tip on it as well.

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Speaker 3: Danny thought the electrical tape and the glove tip would

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Speaker 3: certainly identify the men that bound and killed Billy Halper,

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Speaker 3: but as we've learned, it's never that easy.

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Speaker 5: The DNA sample recovered was just too small.

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Speaker 3: All but Danny's hopes were lifted when Christina combined the

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Speaker 3: samples from the tape and the glove and the DNA

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Speaker 3: mixture indicated the presence of three unknown individuals.

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Speaker 7: When you have a mixture with multiple people, we have

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Speaker 7: a software that we use. It's called star Mix. It

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Speaker 7: helps us to resolve some of these mixtures and at

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Speaker 7: times it can pull out individual profiles for the contributors

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Speaker 7: or the people in that mixture. Unfortunately, for this sample,

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Speaker 7: it wasn't able to pull out a specific profile for

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Speaker 7: the people or the individuals in that mixture. However, it's

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Speaker 7: still suitable for comparison, so any standards that we get

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Speaker 7: at any point in time can be compared to this DNA.

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Speaker 3: Profile in other words, this was not just a matter

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Speaker 3: of dropping the DNA profile into codis and having it

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Speaker 3: spit out the name of Billy's killer. We would need

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Speaker 3: a one to one comparison between this DNA profile and

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Speaker 3: a potential suspect. But here was the problem. Danny didn't

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Speaker 3: have the DNA from any of the men at the

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Speaker 3: top of his suspect list, the men he suspected of

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Speaker 3: attacking Billy at his home, Harry Collier, Jimmy high Note,

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Speaker 3: or Gil Fernandez. The blood samples on the spot cards

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Speaker 3: from high Note and Collier stored by Browerck County ended

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Speaker 3: up being too degraded and yielded no viable DNA. Fingernail

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Speaker 3: clippings from Billy Haupern showed no evidence of foreign tissue

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Speaker 3: or blood, and strands of the killer's hair that was

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Speaker 3: supposed to be sealed in an evidence envelope had mysteriously

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Speaker 3: gone missing. But the DNA profile Christina had developed still

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Speaker 3: had crucial evidentiary value.

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Speaker 7: Because this is a sample that is suitable for compares garrison.

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Speaker 7: At this point we have that we just need additional

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Speaker 7: standards to compare to in order to figure out who

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Speaker 7: might be contributing to that DNA profile.

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Speaker 5: The solution was straightforward.

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Speaker 3: Danny needed to find a way to get a fresh

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Speaker 3: DNA sample from suspects that were either unwilling, missing, or dead.

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Speaker 7: That actually happens more than you would think, so, especially

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Speaker 7: with these cool cases. You know, people pass away and

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Speaker 7: they're still suspects, right, and you can't go out and

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Speaker 7: get a buckle swab because they're gone. And maybe you

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Speaker 7: could go out and exoom their bones and try to

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Speaker 7: get a reference sample that way, but that's obviously time

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Speaker 7: consuming and it's costly. So one option we have is

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Speaker 7: using the DNA profile from a relative, and.

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Speaker 5: So that's exactly what Danny did.

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Speaker 3: Collier's adult son consented to a cheek swab and agreed

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Speaker 3: to submit his DNA for comparison.

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Speaker 7: Able to pull out a DNA profile and we're able

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Speaker 7: to compare it, we can run something like a paternity

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Speaker 7: statistic and say, okay, well this person can't be ruled out.

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Speaker 3: Christina developed a DNA profile of Harry Collier's son, and

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Speaker 3: Danny and I held our breaths waiting for the results.

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Speaker 7: So we compared him to the electrical tape sample and

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Speaker 7: he was excluded as a contributor to the mixed DNA profile.

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Speaker 3: With almost certainty, Harry Collier had been excluded as a

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Speaker 3: contributor to the DNA found on the electrical tape used

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Speaker 3: to tie up Billy halper It was a letdown, for sure,

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Speaker 3: But maybe it just meant that Collier never touched the tape.

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Speaker 3: Maybe he just held the knife, And now we might

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Speaker 3: even have the proof that he was in the room.

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Speaker 8: And then there was also a white towel which was

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Speaker 8: collected from Collier's wife at the time.

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Speaker 9: Who apparently told us that he brought it home from

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Speaker 9: on one night and it was full of blood.

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Speaker 5: My hope and Danny's hope was this was the hail Mary,

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Speaker 5: so to speak.

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Speaker 7: So in the seventh report, we collected a sample from

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Speaker 7: the right from both sides of the towel.

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Speaker 3: After all, if the bloodstained towel that Collier's widow found

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Speaker 3: contained any of Billy Halpern's DNA, it would prove a

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Speaker 3: direct link between Collier and the helping crime scene. Why

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Speaker 3: else would Collier be in possession of a towel containing

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Speaker 3: a murder victim's blood unless he was there wiping the

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Speaker 3: victim's blood from his hands, his face, or even the

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Speaker 3: murder weapon itself. The towel in question had been stored

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Speaker 3: at the Briar Sheriff's office. Danny took custody of the

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Speaker 3: evidence and delivered it to Christina.

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Speaker 7: We used a collection device known as the end back,

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Speaker 7: and I like to think of it as almost like

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Speaker 7: something like a wet vacuum that you would use in

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Speaker 7: your house, like if you use one to clean carpet,

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Speaker 7: for example. It's like that, but for DNA. After we

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Speaker 7: vacuum it up and we collect that liquid, we run

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Speaker 7: it through a filter where it basically catches the DNA

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Speaker 7: but allows all the other liquid to flow through, and

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Speaker 7: then we cut out that filter and that's what's set

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Speaker 7: forward in the laboratory.

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Speaker 3: As suspected, there was DNA present on the towel.

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Speaker 7: The DNA profile obtained from that sample with a mixture

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Speaker 7: of at least two individuals with at least one male contributor,

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Speaker 7: but unfortunately, due to the complexity of that sample, it's inconclusive.

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Speaker 5: The likely cause.

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Speaker 3: The towel had gone through the washing machine before it

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Speaker 3: was given over to police. The brown stain remained, but

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Speaker 3: the DNA that survived was just too degraded to be

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Speaker 3: of much use.

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Speaker 7: We discussed it here internally, and we decided that we

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Speaker 7: wanted to do another sample and try a little bit

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Speaker 7: of a different strategy in the laboratory, try maybe some

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Speaker 7: other cleanup methods to try to see if we could

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Speaker 7: really get a cleaner sample that would get us a

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Speaker 7: better profile. When we did that, we obtained a mixture

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Speaker 7: of at least three individuals with at least one male contributor,

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Speaker 7: But unfortunately it was still too complex and it was

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Speaker 7: inconclusive for comparison purposes as a result.

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Speaker 5: I've got to be honest here.

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Speaker 3: At this point, Danny and I were both starting to

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Speaker 3: lose hope that science was going to solve this case.

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Speaker 5: It just felt like one strikeout after another.

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Speaker 7: Over time, DNA is going to break down, and you know,

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Speaker 7: you're kind of almost in a race with it. You

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Speaker 7: want to use the new technolog as best as possible,

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Speaker 7: but you don't want to use it if there's not

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Speaker 7: a good chance you might get a result. So if

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Speaker 7: we had this technology ten twenty years ago, then maybe

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Speaker 7: the results would have looked different. So I think time

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Speaker 7: has definitely been a factor here, and unfortunately a negative

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Speaker 7: factor here.

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Speaker 3: But Danny Smith had been deep in the count before

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Speaker 3: and was still hopeful that there was one more DNA

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Speaker 3: sample he could still get, but it would mean getting

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Speaker 3: back inside the Florida State Prison and taking something from

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Speaker 3: the one guy least likely to give it up, gil Fernandez.

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Speaker 3: Danny's theory from the beginning was that Billy Haupurn was

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Speaker 3: overpowered by multiple assailants, and one of those men could

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Speaker 3: have been gil Fernandez.

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Speaker 5: Could help prove it. Here's Danny.

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Speaker 10: Well Go, being in the system, being in prison and

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Speaker 10: convicted of multiple felonies. He was swabbed, his DNA was taken,

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Speaker 10: and his DNA profile was uploaded into CODIS.

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Speaker 1: The evidence that we have is good.

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Speaker 10: For a one to one comparison, so I can't use

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Speaker 10: the DNA profile that's in CODIS to compare to the

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Speaker 10: evidence that we have, so I need to actually get

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Speaker 10: another physical sample for that comparison.

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Speaker 3: But as he explains, that was easier said than done.

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Speaker 10: Normally, in a situation like this, we would get a

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Speaker 10: warrant and a judge would sign it, and we would

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Speaker 10: be able to go ahead and collect his DNA and it.

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Speaker 1: Would be very simple.

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Speaker 10: However, in this case, I don't have probable cause to

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Speaker 10: get that body warrant.

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Speaker 3: Bill was an ex cop, he was already doing life

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Speaker 3: in prison. He had zero incentive to volunteer his own

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Speaker 3: DNA to help an investigation that could potentially bring yet

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Speaker 3: another murder charge against him, maybe as many as five.

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Speaker 3: But as Christina explains, there was another way to get

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Speaker 3: his DNA, one that would leave Fernandez none the wiser.

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Speaker 7: A secondary standard is something where we don't take it

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Speaker 7: directly off of something, but it's something that if we

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Speaker 7: get a single source DNA profile, you know there's a

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Speaker 7: reasonable expectation that it would come from that individual. So

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Speaker 7: you know, police officers, for example, if they can't get

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Speaker 7: a warrant for someone's DNA, they might try to collect

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Speaker 7: discarded items like a cigarette butt or a water bottle

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Speaker 7: or a coffee cup.

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Speaker 10: He's been rafered for thirty plus years, and the idea

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Speaker 10: would be to work with the Office of the Inspector

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Speaker 10: General and see if there's a way that we can

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Speaker 10: surrepiciously obtain an abandoned sample without him knowing.

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Speaker 3: But as you can imagine, there were significant obstacles to

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Speaker 3: this approach too. The guy has been in this particular

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Speaker 3: prison camp for thirty years and believe it or not.

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Speaker 3: Even a convicted killer like Gil Fernandez makes friends inside the.

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Speaker 10: Fact that he's ben in prison, he has a relationship

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Speaker 10: with the correction's officers. Presumably, I don't know if.

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Speaker 1: He's going to get tipped off.

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Speaker 10: I don't know that if I try to get an

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Speaker 10: abandoned sample from him, that somebody's going to tip him off.

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Speaker 3: And remember, Danny had a strong suspicion that it was

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Speaker 3: Gill's connections in law enforcement that enabled some of his

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Speaker 3: worst crimes in the past, So what was reason to

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Speaker 3: assume that being tipped off was again a possibility.

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Speaker 10: If he knows that we're coming for his DNA, there's

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Speaker 10: a very good possibility that he's going to try to

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Speaker 10: have another inmates DNA on this abandoned sample, and then

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Speaker 10: when that's tested, it'll come back to someone who has

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Speaker 10: no association with this case, or maybe not even South Florida,

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Speaker 10: and that'll throw a big monkey wrench into the investigation.

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Speaker 3: As long as Fernandez was in lock up in Rayford,

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Speaker 3: getting a trusted DNA sample would be next to impossible.

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Speaker 3: But then, finally, a stroke of incredible good fortune.

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Speaker 8: I know you just texted me to tell me to

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Speaker 8: jump on a call and to record it. You had

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Speaker 8: some pretty big news, Scott. You're not going to believe this.

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Speaker 8: I randomly, as I normally do, I pulled up Gill's

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Speaker 8: Department of Corrections page, and he's been moved.

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Speaker 5: Moved within the prison, moved to a block.

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Speaker 1: He's no longer in rape.

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Speaker 10: He's he's in a facility called Tomoka, which I just

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Speaker 10: looked it up.

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Speaker 1: It's in Daytona Beach.

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Speaker 3: After thirty years of the same prison camp. Gil Fernandez

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Speaker 3: had been moved. But why and why now? And didn't

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Speaker 3: have anything to do with this new investigation.

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Speaker 5: I think this is kind of stunning.

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Speaker 9: I mean, is there a possibility that he has struck

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Speaker 9: some kind of deal with the Feds that maybe they

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Speaker 9: moved him or did he did he get into a fight?

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Speaker 8: Is his life in danger?

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Speaker 9: I mean, what what are I mean? What are some

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Speaker 9: of the post I mean, what are the possibilities?

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's definitely closer. It's Daytona Beach.

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Speaker 10: It's a few hours away as opposed to six hour drive,

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Speaker 10: so he's definitely closer to the family. I don't know

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Speaker 10: if he somehow cut a deal. I don't know if

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Speaker 10: it had anything to do with my visit with him,

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Speaker 10: the fact that he is now in a new place,

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Speaker 10: he may not have those relationships with the guards, with

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Speaker 10: the corrections officers that he had in Rayford, and I

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Speaker 10: may be able to kind of slide this operation in

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Speaker 10: a little easier.

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Speaker 3: You might have heard it in my voice, but my

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Speaker 3: concern was that somehow Danny's visit had spooked Gil into

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Speaker 3: cutting a deal with federal investigators and cutting Danny out

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Speaker 3: of gaining a potential confession. You know, the rivalry you

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Speaker 3: hear about local cops and the Feds.

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Speaker 5: It's real.

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Speaker 3: But Danny did some calling around and was able to

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Speaker 3: conclude that, as far as he could tell, Gill moved

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Speaker 3: to a new prison had been in the works for

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Speaker 3: a while, which means it was entirely coincidental, not a

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Speaker 3: result from some unwanted attention from a cold case detective.

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Speaker 10: It looks like he had been working this process well

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Speaker 10: before I even met him. So the fact that he

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Speaker 10: was moved from Rayford to Tomoka really has nothing to

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Speaker 10: do with my visit. And he's not working a deal.

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Speaker 10: He has no no plea agreement, nothing going on. He's

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Speaker 10: not ratting on anyone that I know of.

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Speaker 3: Just it was a coincidence, and that means Fernandez will

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Speaker 3: likely not be an alert for any surreptitious efforts to.

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Speaker 5: Gain his abandoned DNA.

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Speaker 3: More importantly, he likely hasn't had the time to establish

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Speaker 3: the same relationships with inmates and possibly even correction officers

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Speaker 3: that could potentially tip them off to these efforts. The

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Speaker 3: move to a new prison was intended to be a

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Speaker 3: reward for good behavior and a way for him to

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Speaker 3: finish his sentence closer to his family. But even for

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Speaker 3: an ex cop and model prisoner, being the new guy

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Speaker 3: has its strawbacks.

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Speaker 10: The initial plan was simply to have a couple of

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Speaker 10: different officers or investigators that work in the prison to

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Speaker 10: do some surveillance follow him, hopefully not be seen that

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Speaker 10: they're following him, watching him, checking his daily routine, basically

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Speaker 10: like a pattern of life, and then once they get

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Speaker 10: a pattern of life, figure out a way that they

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Speaker 10: would be able to take some kind of something abandoned

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Speaker 10: from him, a sample abandoned without his knowledge.

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Speaker 3: But as it turns out, Danny had more allies inside

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Speaker 3: than Gilded, and the correction officers had to moke a

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Speaker 3: prison owed their new prisoner no favors.

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Speaker 5: They just wanted to make sure it was done right.

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Speaker 10: Part of the issue that was reported back to me

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Speaker 10: was that he's going to know that they went through

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Speaker 10: his specific bunk. And when I was told that, I said,

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Speaker 10: that's great. Actually, when you guys, when you leave and

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Speaker 10: you leave the bunk and you walk past all the

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Speaker 10: inmates that are sitting there trying to figure out what's

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Speaker 10: going on, make sure that he sees the evidence bag

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Speaker 10: walk past him.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's going to see the evidence bag.

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Speaker 10: No one's going to know exactly what it's about until

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Speaker 10: Gil gets back to his bunk and he sees that

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Speaker 10: his stuff was rising through.

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Speaker 3: It was a bit of gamesmanship that Danny hoped would

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Speaker 3: pay dividends, both practical and emotional.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to elicit a response.

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Speaker 10: I was hoping that, first of all, maybe get him thinking,

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Speaker 10: Maybe turn the cruise on him a little bit and

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Speaker 10: get him nervous, have him realize that now we have

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Speaker 10: his DNA and there's really nothing he can do about it.

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Speaker 3: Danny had played nice on his first visit to Guilfernande's

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Speaker 3: in prison, careful not to spook him into a tight

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Speaker 3: lipped retreat. So this was a dramatic and clear change

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Speaker 3: in approach, one that would surely not go unnoticed by Gil.

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Speaker 3: As Sherlock Holmes famously said, the game was afoot. In

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Speaker 3: search of a new DNA sample to compare with evidence

371
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Speaker 3: from the helper and crime scene, Danny had his sights

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Speaker 3: on gathering personal items from guil Fernandez's new prison cell. Thankfully,

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Speaker 3: Danny had the full cooperation of correctional officers at the

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Speaker 3: Tomocha prison who actually had some ideas of their own

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Speaker 3: and how to execute the operation, not just effectively, but

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Speaker 3: with a little panache.

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Speaker 10: They actually had everyone in his pot or his area,

378
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Speaker 10: were in their bunks and their I guess space, and

379
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Speaker 10: they ultimately pulled the fire alarm and herded them into

380
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Speaker 10: another room kind of around the corner away. And when

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Speaker 10: they did that, they had other investigators that were more

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Speaker 10: or less hidden around the corner or in another room.

383
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Speaker 10: And as soon as that room was empty, his area,

384
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Speaker 10: his bunk was empty, they went in there and they

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Speaker 10: were able to remove three items.

386
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Speaker 3: Specifically, the officers removed a toothbrush, a coffee mug, and

387
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Speaker 3: a used water bottle, items most likely to contain gills,

388
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Speaker 3: saliva or touch DNA.

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Speaker 10: They gave me call and they said that everything was

390
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Speaker 10: a success. They did everything appropriately. They had tann of

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Speaker 10: custody and they packaged all those individually and then they

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Speaker 10: fed ex them next day over to us.

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Speaker 3: Upon receipt of the items, hand delivered the new evidence

394
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Speaker 3: to Christina at DNA Labs International. After the initial test,

395
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Speaker 3: she was confident there was a good viable sample.

396
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Speaker 7: We received a toothbrush, a coffee cup, and a water

397
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Speaker 7: bottle from Gilbert Fernandez, and in this case it only

398
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 7: indicated one male contributor. So because of that, we operate

399
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Speaker 7: under the assumption that the DNA profile is from Gilbert Fernandez.

400
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 3: As for the comparison sample, Danny had lost a lot

401
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 3: of confidence in using that DNA mixture that was collected

402
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 3: from the electrical tape, but so far it was all

403
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 3: he had. Unfortunately, those low expectations proved all too realistic.

404
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 3: Christina's test determined that there was a low probability of

405
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Speaker 3: a match between gil fernandez fresh DNA sample and the

406
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Speaker 3: DNA profile created from the tapes sample.

407
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Speaker 7: So the analysis provided limited support for the proposition that

408
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 7: mister Fernandez is a contributor. Just to give you kind

409
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 7: of perspective on what that means, limited support is the

410
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 7: bottom of our scale. Anything from two to ninety nine

411
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 7: is limited support, and this is two point eight.

412
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Speaker 3: But Danny had to look at the bright side. He

413
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 3: now had a good sample or standard of Gills DNA

414
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 3: that was strong enough for a one to one comparison

415
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 3: to any DNA he may be able to find in

416
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 3: the future.

417
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Speaker 7: With this much contact, with this much blood, I would

418
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 7: say there's a reasonable expectation that you would be able

419
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 7: to find his DNA there.

420
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Speaker 3: But it does raise an important question, what if gil

421
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 3: Fernandez was not there when Billy was killed? What if

422
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 3: this investigation has been on the wrong path from the beginning?

423
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 3: Who else in Gill's crew may have helped to execute

424
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 3: this deadly plan? Somebody who was not in jail or,

425
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 3: in the case of high note Collier and berg Christie

426
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 3: no longer alive.

427
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 11: I mean, obviously, the name that would stand out as

428
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 11: someone that I would say probably could have been there

429
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 11: is Mike Carbone.

430
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 12: Michael Bone was a heartless human being.

431
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 3: Michael Carbone, the five time convicted felon that had testified

432
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 3: in court that he had participated in one of Burtingill's

433
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 3: deadly shakedowns.

434
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Speaker 5: The nineteen eighty three scheme to.

435
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 3: Rob three drug dealers of over one million dollars in

436
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 3: cocaine that ended with three people being shot and dumped

437
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 3: in the Everglades off of Danger Road.

438
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Speaker 13: Fernandez and Christy were arrested after Michael Carbone told police

439
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 13: he saw the victims shot to death that night in

440
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Speaker 13: the Everglades. The defense says Carbone was the trigger man

441
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 13: and lied to police to protect himself.

442
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 3: Wasn't it possible that this was not carbon Jones's only

443
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 3: time acting as Gill's muscle. Wasn't it possible that before

444
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 3: he testified against Christy and Fernandez that he had played

445
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 3: a part in the murders of Billy Halpern, Mitch Hall,

446
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 3: and Charlondo Drought, maybe even Jimmy high Note and Harry Collier.

447
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 3: Could Michael Carbone be the missing link in solving all

448
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 3: five murders?

449
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 10: After the press conference, I can easily say that I

450
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 10: got more calls on this particular case than I did

451
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 10: from any case and any other press conferences combined. I

452
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 10: got calls from all over the country, people that somehow

453
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 10: had a connection to.

454
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: Either Gill or Billy or some.

455
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 10: Of the other victims. Mitch Hall Jimmy high Note, Harry Collier.

456
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 10: Many of the calls kept mentioning one particular name, which

457
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 10: is a name that was already on my radar. Then

458
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 10: that was Mike Carbone.

459
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 14: We can't show you Michael Carbone's face because he's on

460
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 14: the federal witness protection program. Carbone's testimony against Gilbert Fernandez

461
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 14: and Hubert Christie. We'll keep him from going to jail

462
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 14: on unrelated charges.

463
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 3: Obviously, Carbone had been close enough to guil Fernandez to

464
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 3: be asked to be part of a deadly robbery with

465
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 3: a huge payoff. So common sense dictates that this would

466
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 3: not have been Carbone's first time working with Fernandez and

467
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 3: Christie's crew or the last.

468
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 5: But what else did we know about Michael Carbone.

469
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 11: Mike Colbone was a collector. It was a trupid collector

470
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 11: down here. It was the muscle behind a lot of

471
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 11: drug dealing. Wherever he went, there was a legal activity,

472
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 11: there was trouble.

473
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 3: This is the anonymous tipster who called Danny after the

474
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 3: press conference, and if you remember, we are disguising his

475
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 3: voice to protect his identity.

476
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 11: Mike was just one of those guys who would never smile.

477
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 11: He had this if you look like a shark. You

478
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 11: could look in their eyes. There's like no life, no feeling,

479
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 11: there's no emotions behind it. That's where Mark Carbone was.

480
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 11: He was just a young, ruthless guy.

481
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 5: Like the rest of Gil's crew. Carbone was also a

482
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 5: regular at the Apollo.

483
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 12: He was intimidating.

484
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 11: He had a chest like a barrel, just arms and

485
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 11: a chest that were massive, and he would just look

486
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 11: at you and you could just feel it. This guy

487
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 11: is cold, calculated, no soul.

488
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 3: But according to this informant, Carbone's muscles were not just

489
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: all show. He had the violent temperament to go with them.

490
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 12: Mike Carbon was just aggressive. He was hostile.

491
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 11: If someone would mess with him, he would have no

492
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 11: problem just walking up to him and grabbing him, throwing

493
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 11: and punching him.

494
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 12: He had no problem doing that.

495
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 11: I just don't remember too many people that were without ordness.

496
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 3: In other words, he and Gil Fernandez were cut from

497
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 3: the same cloth.

498
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 5: But it was also always clear who was the boss.

499
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 5: Here's Mark Lopez.

500
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 15: Gil was also the kind of guy that gave direction

501
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 15: like I wouldn't at all be shocked if Carbone was

502
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 15: a guy who was a trigger man. Might have been

503
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 15: a Gil's direction, and.

504
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 3: While we don't know the specifics of their working relationship,

505
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 3: investigation revealed the following timeline. In nineteen eighty three, Carbone

506
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 3: and Fernandez together ambushed three men who were held at gunpoint, robbed,

507
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 3: and then executed on Danger Road. In nineteen eighty six,

508
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 3: Billy Halpern was ambushed, potentially robbed of the contents of

509
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 3: his safe, and then killed. In nineteen eighty seven, Mitch

510
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 3: Hall and his girlfriend were killed, and a week later

511
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: two of Gil's own crew, Jimmy Hinoe and Harry Collier,

512
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 3: met the same fate. But it was not until nineteen

513
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 3: ninety after Michael Carbone was arrested and was facing yet

514
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 3: another felony extortion charge, that he offered to testify against

515
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 3: Fernandez and Christi in the Danger Road triple homicide. In

516
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 3: other words, he waited seven years to come clean, which

517
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 3: sounds less like he found a conscience and more like

518
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 3: he was trying to stay one step ahead of the law.

519
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 3: In Gil Fernandez, here's Dave Fassano.

520
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 4: And everyone feels that they were killing all of the

521
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 4: anyone that could turn on them, and we all and

522
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 4: the rumor was that that's why Mike Carbone finally squealed

523
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 4: because he felt that he was the last one left

524
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 4: and they were going to murder him, so he decided

525
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 4: to wrap them out before they could kill him.

526
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 3: A deal with prosecutors earned him immunity and a new

527
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 3: life and the witness protection program, but did it also

528
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 3: let him avoid blame for multiple other murders.

529
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 15: You have to realize that in that situation, guys flip,

530
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 15: you know, pretty easy when they realize they're facing major

531
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 15: time and they're going to give you anything they can

532
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 15: to lighten their load. So if you know Carbone was

533
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 15: the shooter by chance, like it's one guy's word against

534
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 15: the others.

535
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 16: Basically, needless to say, it was time to track down

536
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 16: Michael Carbone, an alleged gangster and informant and maybe even

537
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 16: a killer.

538
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 5: It wouldn't be easy.

539
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 10: I can say that in my career I've never actually

540
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 10: had to track somebody down that was in witness p.

541
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 3: And Danny couldn't expect any help from the federal agency

542
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 3: that had promised to keep him hidden.

543
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:09,479
Speaker 5: Danny was on his own.

544
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 3: No one had seen or heard from Carbone in thirty

545
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 3: four years since the days immediately following Fernandez and Christie's sentencing,

546
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 3: and since Carbone had no doubt changed his name, Danny

547
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 3: wasn't even sure what he was looking for.

548
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 10: So it was frustrating to run names data, birth socials,

549
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 10: family names through the various databases and still come up

550
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 10: with different This could be him, this could be him.

551
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 10: He could be in California, he could be deceased, he

552
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 10: can be overseas. So I got so much different information

553
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 10: it was really hard to pinpoint exactly where he was.

554
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 3: But Danny had more than a few contacts in law

555
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 3: enforcement and some were willing to help out a fellow

556
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 3: brother and blue I did.

557
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 10: I had a good friend of mine who's a retired

558
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 10: homicide detective who now is working as a priate investigator,

559
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 10: contacted him and gave him what I had and asked.

560
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: Him to do some research and see if he.

561
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 10: Can't help me out and narrow down exactly where Carbone is.

562
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 3: While interviewing Billy's friends and people associated with the Apollo,

563
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 3: we had heard all kinds of rumors about Carbones whereabouts.

564
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 3: Some said he was out west, while others suggested he

565
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 3: fled the country and living the life of a John Doe,

566
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 3: while others, like our anonymous tipster had heard that it

567
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 3: was actually back in South Florida, running his mouth like

568
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 3: nothing had ever happened.

569
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 12: An individual who contacted me today told me.

570
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,479
Speaker 11: That he he said that Carbone was recently down within

571
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 11: a few months ago at Hollywood Beach, exposing himself in

572
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 11: a sense after being in the witness.

573
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 12: Protection program all this time. That has some level of arrogance.

574
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 3: So Danny hit the streets, asked around, even rattled some cages,

575
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 3: but unfortunately he had little success running down those leads. Thankfully,

576
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 3: Danny's PI buddy had much better luck.

577
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 10: My buddy called me and he was excited. He said,

578
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 10: I got him. I'm pretty sure I got him.

579
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 12: Now.

580
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 10: I had old photographs of Michael Carbone from back in

581
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 10: the eighties, and my buddy had new photographs, and putting

582
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 10: these two pictures side by side, there was no doubt

583
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 10: he had found them. We were able to get his

584
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 10: new name and where he lives, who he lives with,

585
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 10: So that right there solved the year long issue of

586
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 10: where is Michael Carbone.

587
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 1: We find found him.

588
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 12: Gan.

589
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 3: He's been working this cold case for more than eighteen months.

590
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,439
Speaker 3: He'd run through countless scenarios and cast his net far

591
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 3: and wide. But this felt like the big fish. Now

592
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 3: it was time to reel him in Cold Blooded. The

593
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 3: Apollo Jim Murders is a production of iHeart Podcasts and

594
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 3: Authentic Wave Media. Scott Weinberger, Kevin Bennett, and Walker LeMond.

595
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 5: Are executive producers.

596
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 3: Sabrina Sire is our line producer, scoring sound design and

597
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 3: mixing by Mark lamoorg Z. For iHeart Podcasts, Christina Everett

598
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 3: is executive producer, and David Wasserman is brand marketing manager.

599
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 3: And with special thanks to the Miramar Police Department, Chief

600
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 3: del Rich Moss, p Io Tanya Ardaz

601
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 5: And Detective Susie Smith