Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature feature, a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm your host of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied
Speaker 1: psychology and evolutionary biology, and I want to take you
Speaker 1: on a trip to imagination Station for the whole entire episode.
Speaker 1: That's right, We're exploring the world of imagination. What is imagination?
Speaker 1: Do animals have an imagination? And can your imagination run
Speaker 1: as wild as nature itself? Discover this more as we
Speaker 1: answer the age old question what's the point of having
Speaker 1: a broom for a butt? So? What is imagination? I
Speaker 1: know that I sound like I'm about to start singing
Speaker 1: a song about imagination, but I'm not. Imagination can mean
Speaker 1: a number of things. It can mean your ability to
Speaker 1: invent things or new concepts. It can be the mental
Speaker 1: pictures you pre deuced in your brain, something that, as
Speaker 1: we'll discuss later, is not as straightforward as it seems.
Speaker 1: There's the childlike imagination of having imaginary friends, or the
Speaker 1: imagination it takes to create a work of art. One
Speaker 1: thing's for sure. Imagination is what separates the brilliant human
Speaker 1: mind from the animals. Or is it? You know me better?
Speaker 1: By now We're about to talk about how I smug
Speaker 1: humans aren't as unique as we thought. Joining me to
Speaker 1: talk about imagination is comic artist and author of The
Speaker 1: Red Dot Kim Winder. Thank you so much for joining
Speaker 1: me today. I'm like super excited about our topic. Actually,
Speaker 1: it's like right in my lane. Yeah. I I sometimes
Speaker 1: when I'm writing notes, I've kind of tried to think
Speaker 1: about what my guests might want to talk about, and
Speaker 1: I've been reading your comics, and yeah, they're very imaginative.
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of a big thing about being
Speaker 1: a comic artist is thinking of making connections that you
Speaker 1: don't normally make and then drawing down. Well, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: So I what I lack an actual talent, I'll make
Speaker 1: up for imagination. I guess you're being too hard on yourself,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it's I think. I think that's one of
Speaker 1: the things that makes that makes us feel human is
Speaker 1: having that imagination, being able to creatively apply our ideas
Speaker 1: in art, in comedy, in comics and movies. But I
Speaker 1: do kind of want to talk about how we're not
Speaker 1: unique in the animal kingdom in terms of being able
Speaker 1: to have an imagination. Now, I'm not sure that any
Speaker 1: animals have learned to do comic artistry. So you're safe
Speaker 1: right now in terms of like goodness. Yeah, like pigeons
Speaker 1: taking over your job. I don't think that's going to
Speaker 1: happen anytime soon. But unlike for me a podcaster, I
Speaker 1: believe that time is not I mean, birds can already talk,
Speaker 1: so you know, oh yeah, no, my dog would be
Speaker 1: all over the podcast industry. Oh yeah, I mean my
Speaker 1: dog would be all over my face, say, on the
Speaker 1: podcast industry, and just like breathing heavily into the mic.
Speaker 1: And you know what, I bet it'd be more successful
Speaker 1: than me. You know what. Dogs just have that that advantage,
Speaker 1: so I can't argue with it, that natural charisma. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe I should start a new podcast called dog Sounds.
Speaker 1: But anyways, until then, let's talk about animals imaginations. So,
Speaker 1: in the strictest sense, we already know that rats have
Speaker 1: been absolutely proven to have an imagination. Measurements of their
Speaker 1: brain activity shows them planning out roots through mazes, both
Speaker 1: wild conscious or wild dreaming. So we know that animals
Speaker 1: can imagine things like they can conceptualize things like rat
Speaker 1: is thinking of going through maze. It's gone through a
Speaker 1: maze before. Researchers have measured the brain activity, found a pattern,
Speaker 1: and then you see that rat is repeating that pattern
Speaker 1: when it's not in the maze, so it's it's thinking
Speaker 1: about being in the maze so it can remember and
Speaker 1: adapt next time it's put to it. Precisely. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: kind of understandable that animals would be able to do
Speaker 1: at last, at least that. But when we think about imagination,
Speaker 1: we think of more than just remembering things in locations
Speaker 1: and um actually coming up with new things. Were being
Speaker 1: able to think in a kind of symbolic manner. And
Speaker 1: in fact, I think that one of the most compelling
Speaker 1: cases of imagination and animals is in primates, and I
Speaker 1: think it's through a variety of observational research. It's pretty
Speaker 1: clear to me at least that primates definitely have an
Speaker 1: imagination that's close to what humans have. So researchers observed
Speaker 1: a juvenile chimpanzee named Kakama pick up a log and
Speaker 1: carry it around, treating it like a baby. He made
Speaker 1: a nest for it and cared for it, and the
Speaker 1: researchers called it Kacama's toy baby, just as log that
Speaker 1: he's using as like a baby chimpanzee doll. That must
Speaker 1: have been the cutest log, like adorable, chubby cheeked log, exactly,
Speaker 1: the softest log ever. Yeah, it's got like two stick
Speaker 1: arms and face made out of knots and roots. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it is, I don't know, it's like that's a
Speaker 1: behavior you would see in a child picking up a
Speaker 1: toy and loving it like a baby doll, and then
Speaker 1: to see it in a chimpanzee is I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's almost spooky in a way to see how similar
Speaker 1: that is, right, Like it makes sense because what else
Speaker 1: is the primary going to do besides just sit there
Speaker 1: and wait to eat, sleep. Yeah that so to keep
Speaker 1: itself entertained. Just personifying object that that is really interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or chimpanzonify, chimpify an object. I'm for it, just don't
Speaker 1: ask me to spoil it. Also, a benobo named Kanzi
Speaker 1: has been studied by primatologists extensively, and this is a
Speaker 1: pretty remarkable individual. So Kanzi was in a research program
Speaker 1: that tried to teach primates lexigram language, so that symbols
Speaker 1: used to represent whole words. Okay, like uh, patrical epics,
Speaker 1: but yeah yeah, okay, um like hieroglyphics. Yeah, exactly. When
Speaker 1: they were trying to teach Kanzi's mother, like she wasn't
Speaker 1: interested at all, she wasn't really taking to it. But
Speaker 1: Conzi was there just accompanying the mother because like they
Speaker 1: don't want to be separated. That would stress them, so
Speaker 1: the researchers would keep them together. You can't just give
Speaker 1: them a log and here's your here's your replacement with
Speaker 1: your substitute log for your baby. But actually Kanzi picked
Speaker 1: up on the lessons even though he wasn't being explicitly taught,
Speaker 1: and he was able to learn how to use the
Speaker 1: lexigrams to communicate in limited ways. So when he here's
Speaker 1: a spoken word, he can actually point to the correct alexagram.
Speaker 1: And he can also use this like alexagram to do
Speaker 1: novel things, So the researchers will point to alexagrams as
Speaker 1: a command. So like like feed the ball some tomato,
Speaker 1: which doesn't really make that much sense, but when he
Speaker 1: sees it, he like picked up a ball shaped object
Speaker 1: and tried to feed it tomato, which is something. Actually
Speaker 1: they tested it him up against a toddler and the
Speaker 1: toddler didn't know what to do with that. But smarter
Speaker 1: than a toddler. There you go. So okay, hold on,
Speaker 1: if if he can do that and he has thumbs,
Speaker 1: he just needs to get an iPad and he can
Speaker 1: start his own comics. So honestly, not too good right
Speaker 1: now is for Kim today? Yeah, I mean he's close.
Speaker 1: He's getting close because he knows what symbols are exactly.
Speaker 1: He oh and actually he's he knows how to use
Speaker 1: tools too, So he was able to be taught how
Speaker 1: to create stone flakes. So that's sharp edges of a
Speaker 1: rock that have been split off, like flaked off, and
Speaker 1: then that sharp edge is used in like I mean,
Speaker 1: it was used by prehistoric humans and a lot of
Speaker 1: things and human ancestors and Neanderthals to create tools and
Speaker 1: as basically as these very simple knives, and like he
Speaker 1: was taught how to do this in order to cut
Speaker 1: a rope to get a food reward, and he was
Speaker 1: able to do it. Dang. Yeah, Okay, well, so we've
Speaker 1: armed the super intelligent bonobo with a knife, taught it
Speaker 1: how to use language. You know, next we'll give it
Speaker 1: an iPad and it'll just you know, I gotta watch
Speaker 1: my back. It's coming for you. But yeah, the reason
Speaker 1: I bring up Kanzi is not just to brag about
Speaker 1: how smart he is, but also to show how imagination
Speaker 1: works in a very smart animal. So Kanzi has been
Speaker 1: observed playing make believe with imaginary objects. He will hide
Speaker 1: imaginary objects under blankets or leaves, and then he'll like
Speaker 1: later come back, lift up the blanket or leaf, take
Speaker 1: out the imaginary object and pretend like he's eating it,
Speaker 1: like it's this like a fake piece of food that
Speaker 1: he's hid in. There's cool. Yeah, which is something that
Speaker 1: I feel like I do when I'm watching cooking shows,
Speaker 1: like pretend like I've been really into the Great Bit
Speaker 1: British Bake offf have you seen that. I've heard they're
Speaker 1: incredibly nice to each other. Sweet. Um. Usually know what
Speaker 1: you look for in reality TV, you look for people
Speaker 1: just viciously bullying each other. Um, but it is actually
Speaker 1: very refreshing for them to just be nice. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I can't sit and watch those things just because, like
Speaker 1: you're saying, I could have eaten an entire meal and
Speaker 1: oh my god, and I'm just salivating, pretending like one
Speaker 1: of they're delicious savory of Claire's is in my hands,
Speaker 1: like shoving it in my mouth somehow that doesn't make
Speaker 1: it better, but I think Zi has a better imagination
Speaker 1: than I do. And he will also take these so
Speaker 1: like he's hidden a fake berry under relief or something.
Speaker 1: We don't know what it is. We can't read Conzie's mind,
Speaker 1: but he's hitting a fake piece of food under relief
Speaker 1: and then he takes it out and he's like playing
Speaker 1: with this imaginary thing, and then he'll like pretend to
Speaker 1: hand it to someone and then he'll watch what they do,
Speaker 1: which really reminds me of what children do. Some of
Speaker 1: my cousins have have babies, and it's really fun to
Speaker 1: like they'll try to get you involved in like imagination things,
Speaker 1: and then they'll hand you something and you're like, I
Speaker 1: don't I don't know what to do with if I
Speaker 1: don't know what you want, and you can tell they
Speaker 1: want a specific thing, like they hand you a leaf
Speaker 1: and it's like that leaf is a race car and
Speaker 1: you will treat it as such or there will be consequences.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, No. My nephews he's four, so he's super
Speaker 1: into like the action figures, and we were playing with
Speaker 1: it off the couch and he pushed my action figure
Speaker 1: off the couch very rudely, but suddenly the couch turned
Speaker 1: into the most giant cliff ever, and then he burst
Speaker 1: into flames apparently at the bottom. Well that's what happens
Speaker 1: when you fall off a cliff generally. Yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: I get for not being a very strong superhero. So
Speaker 1: your nephew killed your superhero. Um, yes, but then he
Speaker 1: brought him back and kissed him on the forehead, So
Speaker 1: well yeah, then that's fine. Yeah we made up. It
Speaker 1: burst into flames, you know, like burns all over his buddy,
Speaker 1: but a kiss on the forehead. That makes all better.
Speaker 1: The power of imagination, power of imagination, and heels all
Speaker 1: grievous wounds. Another instance of a primate showing incredible imagination
Speaker 1: was in a chimpanzee named Vicky, who was raised by
Speaker 1: humans in a human home. Generally not recommended. I would
Speaker 1: say for chimpanzee, she would have these pull toys. So
Speaker 1: a pull toy is like a toy on wheel, like
Speaker 1: a wooden duck or horse that you pull along. I'm
Speaker 1: not really sure that that people have those anymore. I
Speaker 1: was thinking like a pool, as in swimming. Sorry, now
Speaker 1: that's just my weird, weird Southern Californian accent. It's a
Speaker 1: pole toy, a poll toy, much quainter and wakier than
Speaker 1: a noodle, a pool noodle. I don't I do like
Speaker 1: the pool noodles, though they're fun to pretend like they're
Speaker 1: giant lightsaber. Yes, but she had she was pulling around.
Speaker 1: She would pull around these pole toys, and then she
Speaker 1: would also reportedly sometimes pretend to be pulling a toy
Speaker 1: that is not there, like an invisible toy. She's dragging
Speaker 1: her hand behind her, pretending to pull it along, and
Speaker 1: then she would pause and like yank on it as
Speaker 1: if it's stuck somewhere, and sometimes even wait for her
Speaker 1: caretaker to come over and then like fix the the
Speaker 1: toy up before she kept going along. So it's a
Speaker 1: really interesting case of this imaginative play. Yeah, that's and
Speaker 1: then making the caretaker get involved in the play, which
Speaker 1: is yeah, which is what we saw with Kanzi, who's
Speaker 1: a binobo, and this is a different this is a chimpanzee,
Speaker 1: and they both were trying to get human beings who
Speaker 1: to them are their you know, companions, because they're in
Speaker 1: these artificial environments. They're trying to get them involved in
Speaker 1: the pretend play, which is something children do human children,
Speaker 1: And I find that really interesting because I think it
Speaker 1: the implication being that imaginative play has some kind of
Speaker 1: social aspect to it as well. Definitely. And yeah, and
Speaker 1: that's something we also share with bonobos and chimpanzees, is
Speaker 1: the high levels of socializing, and that's it's it's really
Speaker 1: interesting to see how they use that as a way
Speaker 1: to communicate with humans. It's all going to regress though,
Speaker 1: when they get their own version of The Great bake
Speaker 1: Off and everyone just stays in their little caves watch
Speaker 1: Chimpanzee Netflix and like they're the Great Buonabo bake Off
Speaker 1: and it's just like, uh, just amount of poop that
Speaker 1: they like. And then they have like Hairy Bear, which
Speaker 1: is a judge for the Bonobo bake Off, and she's
Speaker 1: like it's like, oh, like, how we've we've constructed this poobcake.
Speaker 1: The flavor is quite very poopy. I would say, I
Speaker 1: don't like your your use of leaves as decor. I
Speaker 1: want one of them, one of the judges to be
Speaker 1: a log and it's just over, that's the worst insult.
Speaker 1: But the log has voted you off. Yeah, but it's
Speaker 1: not just primates that seem to have some a way
Speaker 1: of visualizing the world through imagination. And I want to
Speaker 1: talk about sloth bears. First, I have to show you
Speaker 1: a picture of a soft bear, because they're very if
Speaker 1: you look, yeah, okay, they're really cute bears. They're smaller bears.
Speaker 1: They weigh around a hundred to two hundred pounds, for
Speaker 1: which fore bears not up and they are native to India,
Speaker 1: Sri Lanka, and Nepaul. They live in rainforest, savannah, and grasslands,
Speaker 1: kind of a wide variety of habitat uh and they
Speaker 1: are kind of shaggy. They've got this black, shaggy fur.
Speaker 1: They've got a little white bibs strap around their chest,
Speaker 1: and these these floppy shaggy ears. I think that kind
Speaker 1: of bear was the model for Blue from the Jungle,
Speaker 1: but interesting because it fits his character to like very
Speaker 1: laid back, kind of stoner vibe totally. Yeah. I mean
Speaker 1: they do amble along in a very light, kind of sauntering,
Speaker 1: lazy vibe, like in the way that I think Blue
Speaker 1: was animated that kind of like, you know, like a
Speaker 1: little loosey goosey kind of walk. They kind of flapped
Speaker 1: their paws on the ground in this sort of dopey way.
Speaker 1: They actually are despite looking kind of dopey and goofy.
Speaker 1: They can run faster than a person can, and they
Speaker 1: can climb trees very efficiently. The yeah, which is like
Speaker 1: you can't it's hard to imagine blue like you know,
Speaker 1: four twenty blaze it and then suddenly climbing a tree.
Speaker 1: But that is what they do. Ate the last of
Speaker 1: doritos and after you he's gone that dorrito high now yeah,
Speaker 1: flame and hot cheetos energy that comes upon you. Yes,
Speaker 1: very dangerous, but they have. The reason they're called sloth
Speaker 1: bears is they have really long claws like a sloth,
Speaker 1: which they can use in combat, but mostly it's used
Speaker 1: to dig up their favorite food, which is termites, ants
Speaker 1: and other insects. O mine too? Oh good? Yeah? You
Speaker 1: have protein common, Yeah, a lot of protein. You know.
Speaker 1: It's true that a lot of processed foods will have
Speaker 1: some insect parts in it because of factories and how
Speaker 1: just stuff is. You know, like if you make bread
Speaker 1: and you gather a bunch of grain, chances are you're
Speaker 1: going to have insects in it. And at first that
Speaker 1: kind of disturbed me. Yeah, and now it's just like, hey,
Speaker 1: free protein. You know, well, my life was forever change
Speaker 1: when I found out like red velvet cupcakes because those
Speaker 1: were my favorite. The red comes from like a certain
Speaker 1: beetle in the die. Yeah, red die. Okay. So there's
Speaker 1: there's a couple of different red dyes, and there's a
Speaker 1: red dye that does not come from insects, but there
Speaker 1: is another red dye that is is synthesized from I
Speaker 1: think a type of beetle. It like it sounds like
Speaker 1: it could be just an urban legend, like my mom
Speaker 1: wanted me to stop eating. Okay, I don't think it is. Actually, no,
Speaker 1: it's not. Okay. Yeah, So here's here's the straight up
Speaker 1: facts about insect die that I definitely did not google.
Speaker 1: Just now. The it's a it's called a cocineal insect.
Speaker 1: I'm sure pronounced that good. Uh. The insect actually creates
Speaker 1: a carmenic acid that is used to deter predation. But
Speaker 1: that carminic, said, can also be used to make carmine die,
Speaker 1: which is a red dye, and carmine is used in
Speaker 1: food and lipstick. It's I guess it's natural red number
Speaker 1: four Okay, Uh, I can actually, so it's interesting for me,
Speaker 1: red dye taste nasty. Now I'm not sure if it's
Speaker 1: this type of red die, but there is a of
Speaker 1: flavor of red dye, uh, and a lot of people
Speaker 1: can't taste it. Some people can taste it. I'm one
Speaker 1: of the unfortunate people who can taste it. So red
Speaker 1: velvet cupcakes, if it's made with that die taste like
Speaker 1: ass to me, it's well probably saving yourself for you know,
Speaker 1: those actual termites and beetles that are more healthier. Exactly
Speaker 1: the healthier the given me a beetle cupcake over redde
Speaker 1: cupcake any day. But yeah, so these slock bears, we'll
Speaker 1: suck up termites and ants from their mounds. They actually have.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons they look so doofy and dope,
Speaker 1: they have really long lips, so their lower lip kind
Speaker 1: of protrudes, and they make this really loud sucking noise
Speaker 1: when vacuuming up the termines out of their mound, just
Speaker 1: like that's how you know it's good. Yeah, yeah, And
Speaker 1: they'll use their long claws to dig up and then
Speaker 1: they suck and shove their nose in and snort and
Speaker 1: suck and sometimes they'll you know, suck on their paws,
Speaker 1: and there have been documented cases of them sucking on
Speaker 1: certain other things that sus that are is a little
Speaker 1: socially awkward for you. I mean, look, it's what would
Speaker 1: you do if you were stuck in a zoo all day? Exactly? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Not not not not do that, yeah, not explore the
Speaker 1: possibilities of things. We just we satisfied our appetite. Appetite,
Speaker 1: Now we've got other appetites exactly like wash your hands saying. So,
Speaker 1: the reason I bring up sloth bears is that they
Speaker 1: actually have been researched about their ability to understand the
Speaker 1: connection between symbols and like imagining a certain food and
Speaker 1: that actual food. So researchers have presented sloth bears with
Speaker 1: an assortment of two dimensional pictures that represent the food
Speaker 1: that they like, So meal worms, nuts, raisins, kibble, oranges,
Speaker 1: various like photos sort of simplified photos of these things,
Speaker 1: high definition that are on this two D thing, and
Speaker 1: they'll show it to the bear. The bear will look
Speaker 1: at it and like snort at the food that they want,
Speaker 1: and then they will receive that food. So they were
Speaker 1: trained that when they like snort at it, then they
Speaker 1: get that food and that snorting behavior is associated with,
Speaker 1: like when they find a food that they want, they
Speaker 1: snort and snuffle off. I guess it up, just like
Speaker 1: they do with a yeah. And so zookeepers are hopeful
Speaker 1: that this will help them did determine like give the
Speaker 1: bears some more choice at at zoos, but like captive bears,
Speaker 1: especially because one of the problems with keeping animals at
Speaker 1: zoos in captivity. Even if it's a really humane zoo
Speaker 1: like the San Diego Zoo where they are kept in
Speaker 1: really nice environment, it's still a lack of space. It's
Speaker 1: not ideal, and animals can get bored. And when they
Speaker 1: get bored and have a lack of stimulation and a
Speaker 1: lack of control over their environment, they can actually start
Speaker 1: doing these kind of O c D like behaviors. Now
Speaker 1: it's not I actually have O c D. It's not
Speaker 1: quite o c D, but it's a similar thing where
Speaker 1: they do these compulsive repetitive behaviors like compulsive grooming. They'll
Speaker 1: like lick bald patches into their fur. But giving them
Speaker 1: control over their environment has shown to be effective in
Speaker 1: helping them in this way and making them less bored
Speaker 1: and making them more psychologically healthy. So giving them a
Speaker 1: choice in their food and their diet is thought to
Speaker 1: perhaps give them healthier um or giving giving them a
Speaker 1: better state of mind, keeping them in a better mood.
Speaker 1: And it's really funny because these bears definitely have overall
Speaker 1: preferences for food, so they seem to prefer meal, worms, nuts, prunes,
Speaker 1: and raisins, which you know, makes those tasty stuff. And
Speaker 1: they all basically hate kibble and oranges. I'm just gonna say,
Speaker 1: like out of all of it, even the insects. Okay, yes,
Speaker 1: because their bears, and it exists in nature. Where do
Speaker 1: we get kibble? Like, hey, we're just throwing well, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know that is it is an interesting thing to
Speaker 1: show that these animals will often prefer these fresh, natural
Speaker 1: foods versus kibble, and it is something to I guess
Speaker 1: note when we're keeping these wild animals in captivity, of like,
Speaker 1: it's kind of hard to keep them happy with just
Speaker 1: you know, kibble and stuff. You can't just give them
Speaker 1: sort of a tray of brown pellets and expect them
Speaker 1: to necessarily be happy about it. Oh no, my dog,
Speaker 1: he's just everyday same thing, so excited, cannot wait until
Speaker 1: he has his dog food yeah, but he's also he's
Speaker 1: also domesticated dog. Yeah, well, I mean and also I
Speaker 1: mean my dog is not too much of a picky eater,
Speaker 1: but definitely I will change. I've been chasing, chasing the
Speaker 1: kibble to find her favorite brand, and I think I
Speaker 1: finally found one that she goes nuts for because there
Speaker 1: are other brands of kible that she's not so interested in.
Speaker 1: What kind of pup do you have? She's a she's
Speaker 1: a an amalgamation of small dogs, kind of like all
Speaker 1: shoved into one tiny unit of your fury. She's a
Speaker 1: I think she's a terrier and a spaniel mixed with
Speaker 1: a Chihuahua or something. Um, yeah, it was a. It's
Speaker 1: a it's just a ball of kind of just intense energy. Uh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but she's she's not too picky, but she deaf only
Speaker 1: enjoys the fancier kibble, which is great thanks for having
Speaker 1: expensive taste stuff. And then of course she likes the
Speaker 1: enrichment of having like different types of food in addition
Speaker 1: to the kibble. Yeah. Well, my my pup, Charlie, he
Speaker 1: just he's totally fine eating the same Rachel Ray dog
Speaker 1: food over and over in just but he he only
Speaker 1: likes to eat when I'm eating. Oh, that's interesting. He's
Speaker 1: a social eater. Yeah, he won't eat until I have food,
Speaker 1: and then he gets mad that I'm not eating it
Speaker 1: right right, just s it's a huff. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean you've got to join them, join in, put your
Speaker 1: phone down, join him at the dinner table, and have
Speaker 1: an actual conversation. Where does imagination happen in the brain? Well,
Speaker 1: as you may know, things don't necessarily always live in
Speaker 1: parts of the brain. You don't have a circle of
Speaker 1: brain tissue that serves as your imagination palace, because the
Speaker 1: brain is interconnected with parallel processes and patterns of neural activity.
Speaker 1: But that's not to say we can't take a stab
Speaker 1: at the question of where and how imagination is processed.
Speaker 1: And it turns out that imagined events take a different
Speaker 1: path from reality inside our heads. A study by Tononi
Speaker 1: at All published in NeuroImage found that imagination flows differently
Speaker 1: in the brain than reality. When you're looking at an image,
Speaker 1: neural activity flows up from the occipital lobe at the
Speaker 1: back of your brain towards the prietal lobe at the
Speaker 1: top of your brain. When you're imagining something, neural activity
Speaker 1: flows in the opposite direction, down from the prioral lobe
Speaker 1: to the occipital lobe. This doesn't mean imagination originates in
Speaker 1: the prietal lobe, simply that it seems to travel in
Speaker 1: a certain path through the brain. But imagination isn't the
Speaker 1: same for everyone. For me, imagination may mean thinking of
Speaker 1: giant rainbow colored velvet worms who I'm best friends with.
Speaker 1: But other folks actually have a more conceptual imagination, something
Speaker 1: called a fantasia, which will discuss when we return. In
Speaker 1: the meantime, I'll be hanging out with my imaginary We're friends.
Speaker 1: This one's name is Rank. Let's take a trip to
Speaker 1: imagination station too. Well, hang on what happens when we
Speaker 1: go to imagination station. It's actually different for everyone. Do
Speaker 1: you know how vivid your imagination is? Do you have
Speaker 1: a highly detailed visual imagination or are you more conceptual
Speaker 1: thinking and ideas. There's a test to see where you
Speaker 1: lie on this scale, called the Vividness of Visual Imagery Questionnaire.
Speaker 1: You can actually take this test on a University of
Speaker 1: Exeter survey website, and I'll include a link to it
Speaker 1: in the show notes. But in the meantime, let's go
Speaker 1: on a very special imagination station tour of your imagination. So,
Speaker 1: first of all, imagine one of your friends, someone you
Speaker 1: see all the time. Now, really consider what picture is
Speaker 1: forming in your mind. Can you see their face, the
Speaker 1: color of their eyes, What about the pose they're in,
Speaker 1: their hand gestures? Can you see the shirt they're wearing?
Speaker 1: What color is it when they walk? What does their
Speaker 1: gait look like? Now imagine the sun rising in a
Speaker 1: hazy sky? Can you see this vividly? Can you see
Speaker 1: the blue sky around the sun? Now, imagine a storm
Speaker 1: is coming. Can you see the clouds form around the sun,
Speaker 1: the light peeking through, maybe lightning illuminating the storm clouds
Speaker 1: from within? Now imagine a giant, hairy tarantula about to
Speaker 1: eat your butt. Now I'm just kidding. How vivid were
Speaker 1: these images? Could you see them with clarity in your
Speaker 1: mind's eye? Could you see vague shapes representing them? Or
Speaker 1: could you see well, basically nothing but just the idea
Speaker 1: of these concepts. If you fall under the latter category,
Speaker 1: you may have a fantasia. So can where would you
Speaker 1: say your mind's eye lies under? Like? Do you have
Speaker 1: a very vivid imagination? Do you kind of have a
Speaker 1: more representational imagination where you see kind of shapes, or
Speaker 1: is it like purely conceptual where you don't actually see
Speaker 1: the thing, but you understand the concept and you're thinking
Speaker 1: of the concept. I think it's conceptual because I'll know
Speaker 1: what I want to draw when it comes to the comic,
Speaker 1: but it's not until I'm actually doing lines where I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't love that, Let's try it this way. I
Speaker 1: would love to be more like visual in my head.
Speaker 1: It just doesn't work that way, though, Well it doesn't,
Speaker 1: and it's I don't think there's anything to feel bad about, necessarily,
Speaker 1: because I think that, from what my research has told me,
Speaker 1: is really created of people can have a fantasia. That
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you're not creative and not imaginative. It just
Speaker 1: means that your brain works in a different way. It
Speaker 1: doesn't visualize an object like it doesn't give you a
Speaker 1: photo of that object in your brain. It just gives
Speaker 1: you sort of the emotion and the concept, the intellectual
Speaker 1: concept of that thing, rather than that visual. For me,
Speaker 1: I'm actually I think kind of at the other end
Speaker 1: of the scale where I see very detailed I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say like photographic representations, but very highly detailed things, and
Speaker 1: that can be um it has its upsides, I guess,
Speaker 1: like you can imagine stuff in vivid detail. It also
Speaker 1: has its downsides because it can be anxiety in ducing.
Speaker 1: And so I'm actually going to talk about hyper fantasia
Speaker 1: as well and why that's not always such a great thing.
Speaker 1: I don't think I have hyper fantasia, but I think
Speaker 1: I'm kind of up there in terms of like like
Speaker 1: seeing things in this like highly defined detail, and that
Speaker 1: can be that can be interesting. It can also be
Speaker 1: a little bit scary. I don't know if see that.
Speaker 1: Like that never crossed my mind. Just being creative and
Speaker 1: like having focused on detail personally, I always have thought
Speaker 1: it's going to be a good thing. I'll use that
Speaker 1: to my advantage. But you're totally right, like minute detail
Speaker 1: and then concentrating on that, like I get anxiety too,
Speaker 1: and now it's kind of like horrifying. It could also
Speaker 1: be and it's not necessarily going to make you a
Speaker 1: better artist, because if you have a very detailed image
Speaker 1: of what something is supposed to look like in your head,
Speaker 1: it may actually be harder to draw it because you,
Speaker 1: like say you're drawing from life or understanding the physics
Speaker 1: of how you're supposed to draw something. If you have
Speaker 1: an image that's in conflict with that and you're trying
Speaker 1: to draw your mental image rather than what the thing
Speaker 1: actually looks like, you can get this like conflict and
Speaker 1: then it doesn't actually come out right. Not not to
Speaker 1: say that it's like anyone who as a vivid imagination
Speaker 1: can't do art. I just don't think it necessarily has
Speaker 1: an impact on whether you can be artistic or creative.
Speaker 1: And in fact, like, I mean, it's great to hear
Speaker 1: from you because you're an artist in your you do
Speaker 1: comic art and it's highly creative, and you are more
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not I'm not necessarily saying you have
Speaker 1: a fantasia. I can't like diagnose you with that, but
Speaker 1: you're maybe, well you're maybe more on that end of
Speaker 1: I think it's a spectrum. It's like maybe you're more
Speaker 1: on that end of the spectrum of more of a
Speaker 1: conceptual thinker. So first let's talk about what a phantasia is,
Speaker 1: how maybe it happens. So it's it actually might be
Speaker 1: hard for people to understand, like who are highly visual,
Speaker 1: like it might be actually kind of difficult to conceptualize
Speaker 1: what that means. So, um, it's where your imagination works
Speaker 1: such that it's not that you visualize the thing in
Speaker 1: your mind. Um. So here's an example, and I've actually seen.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons I wanted to do this episode
Speaker 1: is there's this kind of viral thing going around on
Speaker 1: Twitter where it's it's a picture where it's like a
Speaker 1: bunch of different apples, and it's like imagine, it says,
Speaker 1: imagine an apple, now which one of these apples represents
Speaker 1: what you imagine? And then there's like a photo of
Speaker 1: an apple, kind of a drawing of an apple, and
Speaker 1: then a sort of blobby, like more cartoonish apple, and
Speaker 1: then there's just sort of a vague apple like shape,
Speaker 1: and then there's like a blank like you don't see
Speaker 1: it at all. Where would you say you lie on
Speaker 1: that kind of I mean, I can show let me
Speaker 1: just show it to you. Twitter trends are just like
Speaker 1: all over the place. Sometimes I'm right there, but I
Speaker 1: can see, like I can see that being devolved into
Speaker 1: a meme to like how I am my first glass
Speaker 1: of wine versus I am on my eighth bottle of light. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So this is from Twitter user at premium underscore heart
Speaker 1: and she has this image of apples, So where would
Speaker 1: you they're like, number one is like a photo of
Speaker 1: an apple, Number two is like a cartoon, Three is
Speaker 1: like a grayish image for is more of a blobbish shape,
Speaker 1: and five is just like blank. I would say it
Speaker 1: really depends on what kind of thing is going on
Speaker 1: in my head. So like today I didn't post a
Speaker 1: new comic because I got stuck in the conception of
Speaker 1: I want this to be done, but every time I
Speaker 1: drew it out, it just it wasn't working. But in
Speaker 1: my head it worked. So I would say, maybe the
Speaker 1: grayish apple, like something's there, but it's not. It's not
Speaker 1: the fully detailed apple, like right on it, right yeah,
Speaker 1: And I would say I'm like, I also think there's
Speaker 1: a range. And I think like even within like a
Speaker 1: single person, even within like a single day, there's going
Speaker 1: to be a range of stuff. So if I'm thinking
Speaker 1: of someone I know, like I'm thinking of you know,
Speaker 1: my boyfriend's, I can see something very clear. If I'm
Speaker 1: trying to think of like I don't know, even a
Speaker 1: celebrity that I don't I'm not too into, Like I
Speaker 1: can't quite like I don't know. Well, now I can
Speaker 1: imagine Reese Witherspoon really clearly actually, now that I think
Speaker 1: of it, like she she's just right in there. But
Speaker 1: I don't know a more obscure celebrity. Now again, Danny DeVito,
Speaker 1: he's right there now, I'm see, I'm trying to think
Speaker 1: of celebrity. I'm not always thinking of like Alton Brown.
Speaker 1: I okay, yeah, that's extremely he's the cook. Yeah yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I like is he does he wear glasses? Even? Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very vague. I'm thinking of an apple with glasses now,
Speaker 1: but yeah, so it's so I would say, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: more of the like either the kind of detailed photographic
Speaker 1: apple or cartoonish apple, kind of depending on where I'm at,
Speaker 1: But it's usually like around there, and then you're on
Speaker 1: towards sort of the middle end of the spectrum where
Speaker 1: it's like the sort of grayish apple and then like
Speaker 1: the more blobby one. Like I think a good example
Speaker 1: is this happened a few years ago. Me and my
Speaker 1: friends went to the Hollywood Bowl to see a show,
Speaker 1: and I was newer to the area because I moved
Speaker 1: to California from a very rural Nevada. But I was
Speaker 1: always looking for famous people and you're not going to
Speaker 1: see Tom Hanks walking down the street, right, But we
Speaker 1: were crossing the street and there was I don't even
Speaker 1: know his name, but um he was in in a
Speaker 1: couple of movies. But I had to I had to
Speaker 1: google bald comedian actor. No, you know Diesel none, the
Speaker 1: Rock Johnson. Oh no, I can't. I'm just naming all
Speaker 1: the like. I think he's he does Children's hospital on
Speaker 1: like Adults. Rob Cordry me Rock Cordry. Yeah, I saw
Speaker 1: that guy. Yeah, but it was like I had the
Speaker 1: idea of, like I connection, but it's not there. It
Speaker 1: looks like an apple with sunglasses exactly, Alton Brown's like
Speaker 1: twin exactly. Yeah, it's it's very interesting. And so for
Speaker 1: people who don't imagine anything like, it's basically not they
Speaker 1: don't see a visual representation at all. It's just the
Speaker 1: concept of Rob Cordry. It's that's a fantasia and a
Speaker 1: vividness of like I said before, vividness of mental imageries
Speaker 1: on a spectrum going basically from hyper fantasia that's like
Speaker 1: extremely vivid imagination to a fantasia where it's almost completely conceptual,
Speaker 1: and researchers are it's kind of a new field of study.
Speaker 1: It's not super well understood. But there was a study
Speaker 1: published in Cortex by Ko and Gerson who sought to
Speaker 1: examine whether a fantasia was actually your brain not coming
Speaker 1: up with the mental imagery or just that you're not
Speaker 1: conscious of it. So your brain is forming the like
Speaker 1: our consciousness is weird. We can form things in our brain,
Speaker 1: have information that is happening in our brain that we're
Speaker 1: just not conscious of. But they did this, uh, it's
Speaker 1: called the binocular rivalry test. So our eyes, if you
Speaker 1: have information going into one eye and information going into
Speaker 1: the other eye is processed in the brain like in
Speaker 1: different parts. So like if your eyes are presented with
Speaker 1: two different images and you're not seeing like you're not
Speaker 1: seeing the shared image, Like say you have a wall
Speaker 1: between those two images and you're just you're facing that wall.
Speaker 1: There's the left image in the right image. Or another
Speaker 1: way to do it is actually to have one image
Speaker 1: b um be red and the other image b Cian
Speaker 1: that that blue color, and then you wear the red
Speaker 1: and Cian blue glas that are used in three D
Speaker 1: and you're wearing that and so you can only see
Speaker 1: the red one with the red side of the glasses
Speaker 1: and the blue one with the blue side of the glasses.
Speaker 1: Either way, essentially, you're presenting one image that only one
Speaker 1: eye can see and the other image that only the
Speaker 1: other I can see. And what happens in the brain
Speaker 1: is actually your brain isn't necessarily combining these images. It
Speaker 1: is flipping back and forth between them, so like animation, Yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of okay, which is interesting, but it eventually your
Speaker 1: brain will start to favor one image over the other,
Speaker 1: and the other image will fade away and the one
Speaker 1: image will become dominant. What happens is that for people
Speaker 1: who can imagine images, and it's basically anyone who doesn't
Speaker 1: have a fantasia, because these are very simple, like shapes
Speaker 1: and patterns, and if you prime them by either showing
Speaker 1: them a very faint image that's like barely consciously uh perceivable,
Speaker 1: and then you you prime them with that, people will
Speaker 1: be more likely to like, once your eyeballs are arguing
Speaker 1: over which image your brain should be thinking about, it'll
Speaker 1: tend to think about that image that you were primed with.
Speaker 1: And it does that make sense? It does? And I'm
Speaker 1: just like I'm absorbing this information and at the same
Speaker 1: time thinking, thank God, like I'm not high because I
Speaker 1: was just like just a random rabbit hole of like
Speaker 1: conception and visualization. And what if our brain is just
Speaker 1: an eyeball, man, Yeah, man, if we've never even seen
Speaker 1: our own eyeballs, with our own eyeballs and my eyeballs
Speaker 1: pick which one, it's just just slowly go into madnese. Well,
Speaker 1: so you're so if you're also asked to imagine this
Speaker 1: one of the shapes like that, also, you will be
Speaker 1: primed to pick that one as your your eyeballs are
Speaker 1: taking It's not really your eyeballs that are arguing over
Speaker 1: it's your brain that correspond the parts of your brain
Speaker 1: that correspond with those visual fields that are arguing over
Speaker 1: which image to decide on seeing. Essentially all right, So
Speaker 1: just just to kind of do a quick recap summary.
Speaker 1: So it's like you get one image in the left eye,
Speaker 1: one image in the right eye, your brain argues over
Speaker 1: which to see, and you end up seeing one like
Speaker 1: say it's the right image, and you know, normally it
Speaker 1: basically corresponds with chance. Once you've controlled for like the
Speaker 1: dominant eye, we're not really going to get into that
Speaker 1: too much. It just kind of complicates things. But yeah,
Speaker 1: once you've controlled for that, it's basically random which image
Speaker 1: you choose. And then when you're primed with an image,
Speaker 1: it no longer is random. Your brain is like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: let's actually do that image. We decide to see that
Speaker 1: one rather than the other one. With people with a fantasia,
Speaker 1: that priming does not work. Oh, they remain at chance
Speaker 1: in terms of which image they their brain decides on
Speaker 1: seeing when they're having that eyeballs argument. And essentially what
Speaker 1: that means is that people with a fantasia are not
Speaker 1: The idea of why that test, that binocular rivalry test
Speaker 1: works is that when that image is flashed in your brain,
Speaker 1: that priming image, it creates a pattern of activation in
Speaker 1: the brain, like you're a pattern of activation being your
Speaker 1: neurons firing in a certain way. And once that happens,
Speaker 1: it's actually lowered the threshold of that pattern being able
Speaker 1: to being reignited, essentially, because your brain is consut your
Speaker 1: brain is visualizing that, it's it's actually forming that image
Speaker 1: in your head. And then like when you're trying to
Speaker 1: argue over these which image to prefer later that kind
Speaker 1: of image that has formed in your brain is still
Speaker 1: there and it's like, okay, what about this one. Essentially,
Speaker 1: so people with a fantasia cannot be primed to favor
Speaker 1: one of these images, which basically that means that their
Speaker 1: brain is not forming that image in there imagination, like
Speaker 1: they can't. They aren't forming that image. So being primed
Speaker 1: with it earlier and having that image being imagined like
Speaker 1: by the other participants isn't really happening for the people
Speaker 1: with a fantasia. So when they go through the test,
Speaker 1: they are still at random chance over which image they prefer,
Speaker 1: even when they're primed with one of the images. So
Speaker 1: it's that's a really interesting test that shows like not
Speaker 1: only I mean people with a fantasia probably are like
Speaker 1: of course it's real, but obviously sometimes people are doubtful
Speaker 1: of like are you are you sure? Are you? Just
Speaker 1: like not thinking hard enough? But okay, going back to
Speaker 1: being high, it's like because we can't conceptualize it, but
Speaker 1: they can because they can't. Yes, yeah, yeah, but they
Speaker 1: are not high like in the corner. Yes, yes, this
Speaker 1: is a This is not the podcast to necessarily get
Speaker 1: high on or to get very high on I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: Don't you drugs kids? This has been a production of
Speaker 1: Katie Golden crap. Now, I don't know. So people with
Speaker 1: a fantasia when they do tests that are measuring like
Speaker 1: how can you visualize this object, they're obviously not visualizing
Speaker 1: it like other people do. But when they're tested on
Speaker 1: spatial understanding and rotating objects in three D space they
Speaker 1: have they're just as good as anyone else, which is
Speaker 1: really interesting. So it's not it's not that they're unable
Speaker 1: to understand physical concepts like this is something different. This
Speaker 1: is thought to maybe be a difference between the where
Speaker 1: and what pathways of the brain. So the two stream
Speaker 1: process of visual perception is the hypothesis that your visual
Speaker 1: cortex processes what and where information along two different pathways.
Speaker 1: So what information is like what an apple looks like?
Speaker 1: What is an apple? Even who even likes apples is
Speaker 1: in the what pathway? And then where is like where
Speaker 1: is the apple? Why is it being thrown towards my face? Brown? Stop?
Speaker 1: Where where is Alton Brown? And where where did this
Speaker 1: apple come from? So the two stream process isn't as
Speaker 1: clean cut as it sounds. Probably, so recent research suggests
Speaker 1: that um that what and where pathways in the brain
Speaker 1: aren't completely separate processes. There's some cross pollination, there's some
Speaker 1: like you know, communication going on, and things aren't just
Speaker 1: neatly segmented into these different like pathways of the brain.
Speaker 1: But it's still a good heuristic to kind of understand like, um,
Speaker 1: how visual process sort of work. So now if I'm
Speaker 1: totally off, like this just does not make sense for
Speaker 1: someone that needed glasses, would that change like how they
Speaker 1: would have, um a fantation like I didn't get glasses
Speaker 1: until I was about seventeen, and then when I did,
Speaker 1: holy like sorry, I was blind. But with that like
Speaker 1: theoretically mess with my my ideas on conception. That's a
Speaker 1: really interesting question. I don't know the answer to that,
Speaker 1: but that is a really really interesting idea, which is that, like,
Speaker 1: because we do know that as babies to young childhood
Speaker 1: or your brain is going under massive developmental changes, so
Speaker 1: they're certainly could be an environmental cause in the kind
Speaker 1: of different maybe the way that the brain develops, like
Speaker 1: the the what pathway of the brain and the ability
Speaker 1: to visualize things made in fact developed differently if you're
Speaker 1: site is different. I don't actually know if that's the case.
Speaker 1: But I think that's a really interesting question that you
Speaker 1: bring up. Well, I just because you're taking it in visually,
Speaker 1: you have aid now, and is it even possible to
Speaker 1: make that chemical change in the trail like it you mean, like, well,
Speaker 1: it's our brains. So as we're developing, our brains grow
Speaker 1: and develop, and it is that growth of our neural
Speaker 1: pathways and the way our brains work essentially is definitely
Speaker 1: shaped by environment. And this specific instance, I don't know
Speaker 1: if like eyesight change in childhood would have an impact
Speaker 1: on a fantasia. I don't know one way or the other.
Speaker 1: But it's not a crazy idea at all, Like the
Speaker 1: idea that I think I want to do a whole
Speaker 1: episode on, like on stuff like that, where how the
Speaker 1: brain can change throughout development depending on different environmental factors,
Speaker 1: especially when you're say you experience blindness or or hearing
Speaker 1: impairment or something, and how that causes changes in the
Speaker 1: development of the brain, because it certainly does. Well, you
Speaker 1: see like all those viral videos of um either a
Speaker 1: deaf child or a blind person or a color blind
Speaker 1: let's put it that way, So guy's never seen color
Speaker 1: finally got these special glasses tusey color and then he cries,
Speaker 1: I cry, We all cry. Everyone's sobbing. Yeah, but fally
Speaker 1: change how like what do you mean the sky's the
Speaker 1: same color as water? Right? It just right? Well, no,
Speaker 1: I certainly, I certainly think that must have a an
Speaker 1: effect on brain development. I don't know what that effect
Speaker 1: necessarily is and how that that shakes out. It's not
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily that's not to say like someone who
Speaker 1: has color blindness or visual impairment from a young age,
Speaker 1: that's gonna, you know, quote unquote mess up your brain
Speaker 1: or anything like that. I know you're not. I know
Speaker 1: you're not saying that. I'm just clarifying that, but like that,
Speaker 1: it's it's it is interesting like our sort of the
Speaker 1: I guess, like our outer shells, which is like our
Speaker 1: eyeballs and stuff, is outer our sensory equipment. If that changes,
Speaker 1: if that's like different, it will affect like what's happening
Speaker 1: in our brains and it will probably have an impact
Speaker 1: on development. Um. Yeah, no, that's a very interesting point, right.
Speaker 1: So like that to stream process that we were talking about,
Speaker 1: let me get into kind of the anatomy of that.
Speaker 1: You have the what pathway, which is processed in the
Speaker 1: ventral stream. So that's basically along sort of the undercarriage
Speaker 1: of the brain roughly speaking, and the wherein formation um,
Speaker 1: like where where is a thing is processed on the
Speaker 1: dorsal stream, So that's around the top of that. I
Speaker 1: mean think of like a dorsal fin like around the
Speaker 1: sort of like you know, like if your brain had
Speaker 1: a big dorsal fin on it, but it doesn't. That's
Speaker 1: my brain has a blow hole, and so that's the
Speaker 1: that's the wear pathway. Like I said earlier, it's not
Speaker 1: as super segmented, like it's not like everything to do
Speaker 1: with location is in that dorsal stream and everything to
Speaker 1: do with what a thing is and that there's not
Speaker 1: like cross parallel activation going on. That's not there certainly
Speaker 1: is that, but generally speaking, you have more activity in
Speaker 1: those parts of the brain. So for people with a fantasia,
Speaker 1: there's this theory that the what pathway that that u
Speaker 1: ventral stream under the brain is different from the general
Speaker 1: population without a fantasia UM, whereas the wear pathway UM,
Speaker 1: the dorsal stream at the top of the brain is
Speaker 1: probably functioning in the same way. And that's why they
Speaker 1: can do tests where they are able to do spatial
Speaker 1: reasoning and you know, rotating three D objects and all
Speaker 1: of that perfectly fine. But that they're they're um, they're
Speaker 1: what is the item is functioning differently, not functioning worse,
Speaker 1: but functioning differently. To that point, I want to talk
Speaker 1: about that a fantasia sounds like, oh, it's the opposite
Speaker 1: of fantasia, and therefore people with a fantasia have no imagination.
Speaker 1: Totally not true. I mean, first of all, Kim, you
Speaker 1: are not You're maybe on I wouldn't say you have
Speaker 1: a fantasia based on what you said, but you are
Speaker 1: definitely like more conceptual in your thinking. Is that is
Speaker 1: that fair to say, oh, yeah, I'll have a great idea,
Speaker 1: but tell me to put it together. Well, you probably
Speaker 1: are similar to some famous animators. So, um, your brain
Speaker 1: thinking in concepts doesn't mean you're not thinking with clarity
Speaker 1: or with detail. You're just thinking in conceptual and emotional detail. Um. So, like,
Speaker 1: here's the difference between like visual detail like an image,
Speaker 1: and a concept. So, like a visual thing would be
Speaker 1: a picture of a house and you can see the bricks,
Speaker 1: you can see the doors, the dorners and the buttresses
Speaker 1: and other archaeology or architectural popping out everywhere or what
Speaker 1: they don't have bones in your bodies in the wall
Speaker 1: is a true crime. But then a concept would be home.
Speaker 1: That's a more vague thing. That's like that's where you
Speaker 1: feel comfortable, that's where you can kick back. Maybe a
Speaker 1: house doesn't just pop in your head, but your family.
Speaker 1: The idea of being with family, of being able to
Speaker 1: relax and like pick your nose and nobody judges you.
Speaker 1: Here's another one, like a picture of like a fat
Speaker 1: stack of cash, like a bunch of dollar bills stacked together,
Speaker 1: you know, just like I don't know, like several bills,
Speaker 1: fat stacks of more cash than you can imagine, or
Speaker 1: versus like the concept of success is that's like a concept,
Speaker 1: that's an idea. Um, So people with a fantasia when
Speaker 1: you say imagine stacks of cash, they're not thinking of
Speaker 1: a picture of stacks of cash. They're thinking of the
Speaker 1: concept of stacks of cash. That is that kind of
Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah, that well, it's all about one's perception.
Speaker 1: Like success to me would have been going to my
Speaker 1: high school reunion and be like sucking people doing great.
Speaker 1: That is success. Success to me would be absolutely covered
Speaker 1: in velvet worms. They're so cute. It's my most recent
Speaker 1: They're very cute group of worms called velvet worms, and
Speaker 1: we actually talk about them in my previous episode love Bugs.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I tried, like bugs. Great, just
Speaker 1: over there, just stay in your line. I got I
Speaker 1: get you, I get you. Well, let's talk about animation then,
Speaker 1: because I have a feeling you'll enjoy that more so. Uh,
Speaker 1: Like I said, people with a fantasia can be in
Speaker 1: and often are in creative fields. So x Pixar president
Speaker 1: ed Catmill had a fantasia. Yeah. Um, actually don't know
Speaker 1: why I said had. I think he's still he's cured,
Speaker 1: and so he reportedly has a fantasia where he says, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't visualize things in my head. It only is
Speaker 1: like once I put it out there on paper that
Speaker 1: it exists. Ed, hit me up. We could chat and
Speaker 1: it doesn't stop there. Glenn Keene, the character doesn't Little Mermaid,
Speaker 1: Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin and more. He's the character
Speaker 1: designer and super using animator. He also has a fantasia.
Speaker 1: Do that makes so much sense because I'm obviously a
Speaker 1: Disney um. So, like all on the DVDs of the
Speaker 1: anime movies, I would watch the bonus content like religiously,
Speaker 1: but there's always the segment of coming up with Ariel
Speaker 1: or Jasmine, and it's always like my cousin's sister or
Speaker 1: that's your cousin. But you know what I mean. They
Speaker 1: would take references and then piece it together to find Ariel.
Speaker 1: You know that it's all come together. Also, his initial
Speaker 1: sketches of Ariel are not even really human. It's just
Speaker 1: like like these big strokes that are very expressive, vaguely
Speaker 1: human shaped or I guess human fish shaped, um, And
Speaker 1: they are extremely expressive, but they don't have a face.
Speaker 1: And then he just kind of works on it, works
Speaker 1: on it until he gets Ariel as you know her.
Speaker 1: So he working from and I think it's actually probably
Speaker 1: his strength. He's not working from a photographic image of
Speaker 1: what he sees Aerial to be. He's working from this concept,
Speaker 1: this emotional concept of what her personality is. And then
Speaker 1: he's putting that in the strokes. And then because you
Speaker 1: can still be an artist and have a fantasia, because
Speaker 1: you know how like the technical skill of art um,
Speaker 1: you know, then he can create her from that first
Speaker 1: expressive thing, and it's really I think it you know,
Speaker 1: you can view it as not necessarily a weakness to
Speaker 1: have that. No, I would definitely say it's worked out
Speaker 1: for him, and it is really neat to take something
Speaker 1: broad and condensed, condensed, condensed, Yeah, that's yeah, exactly. So
Speaker 1: on the other end of that sort of visualization scale
Speaker 1: is hyper fantasia. So hyper fantasia is extremely vivid imagination,
Speaker 1: to the point where one person who had alf reported
Speaker 1: having hyper hyper fantasia said she passed out after reading
Speaker 1: a story in which someone steps on a nail because
Speaker 1: she visualized it in such vivid detail. Yeah. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: it's not always great to to be able to imagine
Speaker 1: in such vivid detail. It can actually be anxiety inducing.
Speaker 1: Hyperfantasia hasn't actually been studied all that much, so it's
Speaker 1: relatively mysterious. Um And I want to make it clear though.
Speaker 1: Hyper fantasia is different from hallucination. You're not seeing something
Speaker 1: before your eyes. You're you're seeing something in your imagination.
Speaker 1: You know, what's your imagination? Yeah, it's I think it's
Speaker 1: a very interesting thing. I know that, like I was
Speaker 1: of an extremely strong day dreamer when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: and I would visualize things in very precise detail. One
Speaker 1: of my favorite things to do when I was born
Speaker 1: in class was to imagine, like some kind of monster
Speaker 1: come in and just like throw chairs and tables around,
Speaker 1: not hurt anyone. I wasn't know, an evil kid, but
Speaker 1: just like cause chaos. And it was fun to imagine
Speaker 1: like a monster crawling on the ceiling and like you know,
Speaker 1: tossing chairs around and tearing into the white board and
Speaker 1: things like that. Homework, no homework. But hallucination is different.
Speaker 1: And I do want to talk about hallucination just because
Speaker 1: I think that there's some misconceptions about what qualifies as
Speaker 1: hallucination and what it is, because it's not it's not
Speaker 1: necessarily imagination and overactive imagination. That's not really what a
Speaker 1: hallucination is. But it's also not always associated with psychosis.
Speaker 1: So UM, hallucinations obviously you are seeing visually something that
Speaker 1: isn't there, and you're processing it as visual information, but
Speaker 1: it's actually not existing. UM, it's often associated with schizophrenia,
Speaker 1: substance abuse, psychosis, or dementia, but it's not always the
Speaker 1: case that someone who experiences hallucination has experiences any of
Speaker 1: those conditions. So people who have hallu sucinations aren't always delusional,
Speaker 1: meaning that they understand that they're having hallucinations. So a
Speaker 1: good example of this is Charles Bonnet syndrome. Um, this
Speaker 1: is uh condition when your eyesight is failing and your brain.
Speaker 1: So the condition isn't that your eyesight is failing. Maybe
Speaker 1: your eyesight is failing because of macular generation just from
Speaker 1: normal aging, but your brain is filling in the missing
Speaker 1: information with visual hallucinations. UM. So people with Charles's Bonnet
Speaker 1: syndrome are often aware that these hallucinations aren't real. But
Speaker 1: they can be as simple as just sort of floating
Speaker 1: shapes and patterns to being as complex as a person
Speaker 1: standing there or like a landscape. Uh. And probably it
Speaker 1: depends on like how um detailed people's visual imaginations are
Speaker 1: and how that that might tie into Child's Bonnet syndrome.
Speaker 1: That just sounds honestly very frustrating. Yeah, I mean people
Speaker 1: who have it's not always a frightening experience, although it
Speaker 1: can be very disorienting when you first start to experience it.
Speaker 1: It's I think that one of the treatment plans for
Speaker 1: it is being able to understand, like just having that
Speaker 1: meta awareness of like what's happening, that these are hallucinations
Speaker 1: that you're not you know, quote unquote crazy. Um, you
Speaker 1: know not to say that people who have um mental
Speaker 1: illness that causes the hallucinations. I still don't. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: call that quote unquote crazy, but um, but it's not.
Speaker 1: It's that you are basically your brain is like, okay,
Speaker 1: usually like I would be able to see this whole scene,
Speaker 1: but there's a big chunk missing, so I'm going to
Speaker 1: add in what is there? What should be there? And
Speaker 1: we actually do this all the time, Like and you
Speaker 1: have a blind spot right now that you don't see
Speaker 1: as being a blind spot because your brain is filling
Speaker 1: in all that information and it's like, no, there's probably
Speaker 1: more wall going this way, so you see it. That
Speaker 1: wall isn't there. Technically speaking, that's hallucination, but it's you
Speaker 1: know already, you already told me that you're not high,
Speaker 1: so you have no excuses. No, it's just now it's
Speaker 1: I don't know that that was just kind of a
Speaker 1: trip in itself. You're right, I'm not looking at a wall,
Speaker 1: but there is a wall behind. Oh my gosh, getting
Speaker 1: high on knowledge, high on light can animals hallucinate. Do
Speaker 1: you think scientists would give rats and monkeys cocaine to
Speaker 1: find out? Do you think these studies would have happened
Speaker 1: in the seventies, Well, if you answered yes to all
Speaker 1: these questions, congratulations. In the nineties seventies, a number of
Speaker 1: studies examined cocaine and amphetamine use in humans, rats, and monkeys.
Speaker 1: Measuring hallucinations and humans is more straightforward than in animals
Speaker 1: because the people taking the drugs, either in laboratory settings
Speaker 1: or on their own, are able to report their own hallucinations.
Speaker 1: One of the more common ones is that of bugs
Speaker 1: or parasites on your skin, and those suffering these hallucinations
Speaker 1: can even scratch wounds or scars into their own skin.
Speaker 1: When rats and monkeys were given doses of amphetamines and
Speaker 1: cocaine over the course of several days, though they can't
Speaker 1: self report having hallucinations, they showed behavioral signs. They engaged
Speaker 1: in increased grooming behavior, apparently trying to rid themselves of
Speaker 1: imaginary parasites or trying to shake them off. I guess
Speaker 1: the real lesson to be learned here is don't deal
Speaker 1: drugs to rats anyways. When we return, we're going to
Speaker 1: explore how real life can be more incredible than what
Speaker 1: your imagination can come up with. For those who have
Speaker 1: highly vivid visual imaginations are highly conceptual imaginations. The interesting
Speaker 1: thing about the human mind is that we can eat
Speaker 1: they're visualized or conceptualized things that don't exist in reality.
Speaker 1: For instance, if I told you to imagine a giraffe
Speaker 1: with a beacon wings, you could do it. Or if
Speaker 1: I told you to imagine a turtle the size of
Speaker 1: a car, it's a piece of cake. Now here's the
Speaker 1: fun part. Both of these things actually exist, well existed.
Speaker 1: The cats a quotalist north Ropy, was a giant pterodactyl
Speaker 1: like pterosaur the size of a giraffe who could fly.
Speaker 1: It's extinct now, as is the giant turtle the stupendomized Geographicus,
Speaker 1: who was the size of a car, as evidenced by
Speaker 1: its huge fossilized shell recently found in Venezuela's Rumaco region.
Speaker 1: So any kind of absurd imaginary animal you concoct, I
Speaker 1: may have a real example for you. So okay, I
Speaker 1: don't know if this game is gonna work or not,
Speaker 1: but try to imagine a ridiculous animal and let me
Speaker 1: see if I can think of a real and that's similar, man,
Speaker 1: a ridiculous animal. Okay your no, those aren't real no,
Speaker 1: um okay, so put on the spot. Sorry, we can
Speaker 1: You know I like this game. Um, I would say
Speaker 1: body of a hippo okay, but with a head like
Speaker 1: a cow. Okay, it just sounds like a cow at
Speaker 1: this point, but with feathers, with feathers, okay. Let me
Speaker 1: think this is probably going to be a dinosaur of
Speaker 1: some kind because they did have feathers and they have
Speaker 1: really interesting heads. So I'm going to say I don't
Speaker 1: know dinosaurs that well, but let me try to think
Speaker 1: of this guy. Quick answer my mother in law. No,
Speaker 1: she's lovely, but she doesn't listen to podcast. Sort. See,
Speaker 1: when you were talking about the draft with a beak,
Speaker 1: I was thinking of like a squid speak on a
Speaker 1: draft that would be that's far out there. Like that
Speaker 1: kind of imagination thought process I kind of associate with
Speaker 1: Monty Python and that kind of art. Just almost obscene, obscure,
Speaker 1: but very Actually, you know what, the answer to this
Speaker 1: is extremely easy. I just realized, But probably what you're
Speaker 1: thinking of is a triceratops because they probably had feathers.
Speaker 1: They were big and thick like a hippo. And they
Speaker 1: have a head that's kind of like a cow because
Speaker 1: they've got horns like a steer and their herbivores, and
Speaker 1: they've got sort of a cow like head with an
Speaker 1: added sort of squidbeak like things. Yeah, oh, sure made
Speaker 1: made that a little bit more creative, quick, kim, be
Speaker 1: creative a cow? Well what if I told you that
Speaker 1: there is you have? You? You can imagine a manta ray? Right?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah? What about a pink one, like an albino one. Nope,
Speaker 1: like a bright hot Lisa Frank pink manneray, that would
Speaker 1: be sick. But it's hard to think of an animal
Speaker 1: that's bright pink in my mind. Well then why don't
Speaker 1: I just show you this is a real, real guy.
Speaker 1: So here's the bright pink manta ray. Now why is that? Like?
Speaker 1: Are they venomous? Nope? Nope. And in fact, most Manta
Speaker 1: rays are not pink like that. In fact, I would
Speaker 1: say nine of manna rays are not going to be
Speaker 1: that color of bright few ship pink. But this Manna
Speaker 1: ray is real. It's not a photoshop. Just so happens
Speaker 1: that this individual man ray has a genetic condition that
Speaker 1: makes it bright pink. So this guy's name is Inspector Clusseau.
Speaker 1: The mantaray, the reef manta ray, which is named after
Speaker 1: the detective in the Pink Panther movies. Uh. It was
Speaker 1: found off the coast of Australia and it's actually been
Speaker 1: observed and photographed numerous times and it is completely naturally pink.
Speaker 1: There's no dyes, no pollution or anything causing this. Uh.
Speaker 1: It's thought to be caused by a genetic condition called
Speaker 1: ari is um wait nope ere ere thrism. So that's
Speaker 1: similar to being albino where you lack pigment, or melanistic
Speaker 1: where you have darker pigment. So like the melanistic squirrels
Speaker 1: that live in northern California and on the East Coast
Speaker 1: have that those black coats or an albino crow will
Speaker 1: be have white feathers. But this this uh, this reef
Speaker 1: manta ray has um a rithrism which causes that pink
Speaker 1: pigment to be more prevalent. Even though he's so brightly
Speaker 1: unnaturally pink, biologists aren't too worried about his survival chances.
Speaker 1: Reef manta raise are huge adult reef manta raise can
Speaker 1: grow from nine to eighteen feet wide and way up
Speaker 1: to a ton. Yeah, so he's a big pink boy.
Speaker 1: I mean it's like that episode of The Simpsons where
Speaker 1: where Homewer wears the pink shirt to work and he's
Speaker 1: where everyone will make fun of him, but instead everyone's
Speaker 1: super into it. Also, like if he gets made fun of,
Speaker 1: I mean, like he's so big, like he can just
Speaker 1: like slappy with his big old flappy body exactly. I
Speaker 1: was just thinking like, either he owns the crap out
Speaker 1: of that, like he's I'm pink, excuse me, or he
Speaker 1: just like abhors the color and just blends into the
Speaker 1: natural environment, you know, possible. I'm going to hope that
Speaker 1: he owns it, honestly. Same here and personally, I like
Speaker 1: a guy in a pink shirt, yes, you know, confidence, confidence,
Speaker 1: you know. I think pink is a great color. It's
Speaker 1: actually funny because back in the olden times, like in
Speaker 1: the seventeen hundreds, pink was considered to be a boy's
Speaker 1: color and blue as a girl's color with like children,
Speaker 1: so like a boy would wear pink because that was
Speaker 1: considered to be sort of a lighter version of baby
Speaker 1: version of red and riders the color of moon because
Speaker 1: it's mammally and bloodshed and and blue is like blue
Speaker 1: is the color of virgin mary. So of course we
Speaker 1: wanted on our baby girls. That's not weird at all, um,
Speaker 1: so just switched that. Everybody whoever wants to wear pink
Speaker 1: wear pink. I think it's awesome, including Manta Raise. So
Speaker 1: I do kind of want to talk about Mantareis a
Speaker 1: little bit. They are gentle giants who feed on zooplankton um.
Speaker 1: They look super alien. Uh so they almost I mean
Speaker 1: I feel like they don't even register as fish, although
Speaker 1: they are fish, but they don't look like a normal fish,
Speaker 1: so they kind of registers like a different type of animal,
Speaker 1: like almost like a jellyfish or something that wouldn't have
Speaker 1: a brain. But they do have brains, and in fact
Speaker 1: they are complex with developed social intelligence. Actually they're the
Speaker 1: reef Manta Ray's cousin, the giant Mantarey has the biggest
Speaker 1: brain of all fish. Now that doesn't mean they're the smartest.
Speaker 1: Like we've talked about on the show before, brain sides
Speaker 1: doesn't correlate absolutely to intelligence, but they do have a
Speaker 1: brain and it's a big en so reef Manta's recently
Speaker 1: have been discovered to form close friendships and bonds with
Speaker 1: each other. Females will often hang out in clicks and
Speaker 1: just like hanging out. Oh my god, I was just thinking,
Speaker 1: like mean girls Wednesdays, we wear pink girl, I am pink. Trump.
Speaker 1: Stop trying to make help happen. It's not going to happen.
Speaker 1: There are other clicks that consist of females, males, and juveniles.
Speaker 1: The idea is that females often congregate together because like,
Speaker 1: when you have a big group of females, they can
Speaker 1: like if they're not in the mood for like receiving
Speaker 1: mating rituals from males, then like they basically intimidate the
Speaker 1: males from approaching them, just like the buddy system at
Speaker 1: bars works or at nightclubs, where it's like you want
Speaker 1: to like kind of intimidate the creep boids. You hang
Speaker 1: out with a big group of girls. Dude in the
Speaker 1: paint has been staring at me for next I'd be
Speaker 1: into it. I don't know. Just yeah, no, just settle lives. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So they also seem to remember companions and hang out
Speaker 1: with them. They're not at the same level of dolphins,
Speaker 1: who can remember their companions for years. In fact, some
Speaker 1: dolphins have been found to have friendships that last their
Speaker 1: entire lifetime, but the manta rays can at least aim
Speaker 1: to hang out with certain individuals over the course of
Speaker 1: a few weeks to months. So there are social butterflies.
Speaker 1: But they are social butterflies, so they'll move on from
Speaker 1: you eventually, all right, I'm not as popular as They
Speaker 1: can also communicate through brightening the white patches on their
Speaker 1: back when interacting with each other, and it's not quite
Speaker 1: understood what this means. It could just be like excitement,
Speaker 1: like a dog wagging its tail, uh, blushing maybe blushing? Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe Yeah. They look so incredibly alien. They look like
Speaker 1: a spaceship, so it's hard to imagine them having like
Speaker 1: a personality, but they do. Yeah, like saying, put a
Speaker 1: face on this animal. Where there's several places that all
Speaker 1: look wrong, Well, the face if if you really want
Speaker 1: to know, like, its eyes are kind of here, and
Speaker 1: then it's usually got a little mouth here. And sometimes
Speaker 1: when I when a ray, well if you can see
Speaker 1: its belly especial like baby rays, they have a cute
Speaker 1: little little face down there. Actually what looks like it's
Speaker 1: eyeballs are not are not eyeballs down there, but they are. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it makes it look like it's a little smiley faxed right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I want to play that game again of like
Speaker 1: you imagine an animal and I try to match it
Speaker 1: with an animal of my own, but this time, think
Speaker 1: of just the craziest insect you can think of. I
Speaker 1: can do that. They're kind of scary to me, so
Speaker 1: it's easier to be more um detailed, I guess, like
Speaker 1: fear does drive detail. Yeah, what I don't like, just
Speaker 1: times it by ten. So uh, I think of a
Speaker 1: bug that has fifteen ish legs, not like a centipede
Speaker 1: or a millipede, but that and then eyes on the
Speaker 1: bottom of those legs, plus having hair, and then like
Speaker 1: the war shacked test where it's face should be. You
Speaker 1: know what, I think the closest thing I can think
Speaker 1: of is not necessarily an insect, but an arthur pod
Speaker 1: and that would be a lobster with but a lobster
Speaker 1: that has a uh sort of a colouration abnormality where
Speaker 1: it's actually they're called calco lobsters. Let me show you
Speaker 1: a picture of it. Now. Admittedly, it's eyeballs aren't all
Speaker 1: on the end of its legs, but they do have
Speaker 1: like the eyes talks. Uh So, here's a here's a calico. Okay,
Speaker 1: it kind of works, and that does work. You need
Speaker 1: to get that blue lobster. Hook it up with the
Speaker 1: pink ray and then we've got to find like bright orange.
Speaker 1: Well that's Nemo Nemo, the pink Man array and the
Speaker 1: blue lobster. Pixar ed ed tell it. There is a
Speaker 1: a bug that is called the troll haired mystery bug,
Speaker 1: which is a real thing, although it doesn't necessarily describe
Speaker 1: a real species. Okay, let me explain. So this is
Speaker 1: a bug that looks like a party horn or an
Speaker 1: alien with like a rainbow iridescent makeup brush or like
Speaker 1: or like fiber optic cable sticking out of its but
Speaker 1: let me just show you sounds extra. Oh, it's like
Speaker 1: someone went to a rave and vomited. I think, like
Speaker 1: having all those glow sticks because it does look like
Speaker 1: the fiber optics kind of thing. But yeah, it looks
Speaker 1: like fiber optic cable glow sticks coming out of its butt.
Speaker 1: Um so the butt part, yeah it is. It's the
Speaker 1: rear aptomen it's not the anus, but it is the
Speaker 1: butt area. So this is a photographed by Tron Larson
Speaker 1: which is depicting what could potentially be a new species
Speaker 1: of plant hopper insect. This was found in Surinam, but
Speaker 1: this could also be the juvenile form of an already
Speaker 1: documented species. We just don't know. There's so many dang
Speaker 1: insects species out there. Sometimes, yeah, sometimes you find when
Speaker 1: that looks like a new species, but then it's just
Speaker 1: like a juvenile or in a weird phase of its
Speaker 1: molting um. But the plant hoppers in general are really interesting.
Speaker 1: So the nymph forms of these plant hoppers actually have
Speaker 1: these biological gears in their legs that allow that allow
Speaker 1: their legs to basically snap in a really powerful spring
Speaker 1: loaded jump. That oh scary bugs. I don't think they're
Speaker 1: too scary because they're very small. A lot of them
Speaker 1: actually look like leaves. I know I had some of these,
Speaker 1: I think in San Diego. They kind of looked a
Speaker 1: little bit leaf shaped and if you'd hold one and
Speaker 1: like it is this teeny tiny bug and then like
Speaker 1: you could only hold it for a little while before
Speaker 1: it like basically just vanished because it was jumping and
Speaker 1: it jumped so hard you could feel like a little
Speaker 1: at a pressure even though they were so tiny. Crazy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But to explain the the butt confetti. Um, many species
Speaker 1: of plant hoppers have abdominal filaments, which are these broomlike
Speaker 1: hairs that are actually made of keto ester wax, which
Speaker 1: they produce by converting plant juices that they eat. Sounds
Speaker 1: like me a taco bell. You just it's just like this,
Speaker 1: like rainbow. So like if you ate like taco bell
Speaker 1: and then immediately had one of those unicorn latte's or
Speaker 1: what is it like the unicorn frappe from Starbucks? Yeah,
Speaker 1: some from Chino. Bright paint and sparkles. Yeah. Yeah. Horrorful, horror, horrorful,
Speaker 1: awful flying, Yeah, horrorful and awful flying. I don't hate
Speaker 1: myself that much. Um. But the this plume of waxy
Speaker 1: hairs that do look like an troll doll head protects
Speaker 1: them from predators who don't want a mouthful of hairy
Speaker 1: ass wax and parasitoids, which are parasites that try to
Speaker 1: get inside your body. Um, but they can't navigate around
Speaker 1: all that hairy wax and get inside the the plant
Speaker 1: hopper and a lot of different species of plant hopper
Speaker 1: do this and it's like the shape that they're they're weird.
Speaker 1: Butt wax takes can be variable. So let me show
Speaker 1: you if you now, I think this is awesome looking,
Speaker 1: you may find it a little bit weird. Okay, Like
Speaker 1: that's that seems a bit more traditional traditional as would
Speaker 1: you like to go with new age ass wax or traditional? Um? Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is like it. They look sort of like it
Speaker 1: looks like a bug, but then it's all screwed up
Speaker 1: in the back. Yeah, like a bug that partially exploded
Speaker 1: into what's that like like that phone, like cocking foam
Speaker 1: or something. Yeah. And then here's another one. This one
Speaker 1: just more has a broom, but it looks like it's
Speaker 1: in pain. It looks like someone pushed it in. Someone
Speaker 1: shoved a broom up. It's but that was a date night,
Speaker 1: like no safety word was very embarrassing. Trip to the
Speaker 1: emergency room. Man, not needed. Here's another one with a
Speaker 1: sort of brushy brushy butt ah. This one more looks
Speaker 1: like a paint brush but to me, but like a
Speaker 1: paint brush that you haven't been taken care of. I
Speaker 1: guess it's Yeah. That one almost kind of looks like
Speaker 1: a shrimp. I don't. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's kind of shrimp shaped, yeah, but with a very
Speaker 1: fluffy But I think I have one more. Yeah, here's one.
Speaker 1: This looks like an adult because it's got wings, and
Speaker 1: then it just has these butt fronds that don't they
Speaker 1: almost look like bird feathers. They do like or kind
Speaker 1: of twigs because it has the pieces coming out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: ye are better like plant roots coming out of it.
Speaker 1: Oh that's awesome and not horrifying at all, not at all.
Speaker 1: Definitely all include pictures of all these these graphs there, sorry,
Speaker 1: all of these plant hoppers in the description. But if
Speaker 1: you want to google it, if you, I think if
Speaker 1: you just google Harry plant hopper, that should be safe. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think safe search on for sure. Definitely room stick
Speaker 1: up the butt is one thing don't do. Don't don't
Speaker 1: do a Google of that. Please. Well, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for joining me. You got anything to plug? You
Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit about your comics and
Speaker 1: where people can find them? Sure? Um? Oh wow, totally
Speaker 1: mind blank Instagram, Twitter plantation. Yea, I can conceptualize that
Speaker 1: I have accounting. Um, the red dot h D underscore
Speaker 1: underscore red dot Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, Red dot comics. I'm
Speaker 1: on Reddit, browsing, lurking, getting down boats, I'm around. So yeah,
Speaker 1: this was fun. Yeah, thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 1: This is a this is a fun one in exploring
Speaker 1: the imagination. Lend you looked visibly frightened that I was
Speaker 1: about to sing. I don't sing, I don't talk well,
Speaker 1: and yet here I am. It's I'm evolving backwards, I guess.
Speaker 1: So you can find us where can't I'm drawing a
Speaker 1: blank to Creature feet Pod on Twitter, Creature feature Pod
Speaker 1: on Instagram. Wait no, I did that backwards. Let's try
Speaker 1: this again. Creature Feature Pod on Instagram, Creature feet Pod
Speaker 1: on Twitter. That's f A T F E T. That's
Speaker 1: something very different. On the internet. You can find us
Speaker 1: on the i heeart website. Just search for Creature Feature
Speaker 1: and you can find me at Katie Golden. And as always,
Speaker 1: I am pro bird rights, where I am fighting for
Speaker 1: the rites of birds to take over as the dominant
Speaker 1: species of the planet. Yes, yes, so yeah. If you're
Speaker 1: enjoying the show, please leave a rating, subscribe, download, leave
Speaker 1: a review. All those things. It actually really really helps
Speaker 1: me out, gets us, gets us up in that algorithm,
Speaker 1: so please, thank you so much for listening, and I'll
Speaker 1: see you next Wednesday. Thanks to the Space Classics for
Speaker 1: their super imaginative song. X Aluminum Creature Future is a
Speaker 1: production of I heart Radio. To listen to more podcasts
Speaker 1: like the one you just heard, visit i heart radio
Speaker 1: dot com, the iHeart Radio app, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.