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Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature feature, a production of I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied

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Speaker 1: psychology and evolutionary biology, and I want to take you

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Speaker 1: on a trip to imagination Station for the whole entire episode.

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Speaker 1: That's right, We're exploring the world of imagination. What is imagination?

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Speaker 1: Do animals have an imagination? And can your imagination run

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Speaker 1: as wild as nature itself? Discover this more as we

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Speaker 1: answer the age old question what's the point of having

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Speaker 1: a broom for a butt? So? What is imagination? I

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Speaker 1: know that I sound like I'm about to start singing

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Speaker 1: a song about imagination, but I'm not. Imagination can mean

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Speaker 1: a number of things. It can mean your ability to

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Speaker 1: invent things or new concepts. It can be the mental

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Speaker 1: pictures you pre deuced in your brain, something that, as

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Speaker 1: we'll discuss later, is not as straightforward as it seems.

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Speaker 1: There's the childlike imagination of having imaginary friends, or the

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Speaker 1: imagination it takes to create a work of art. One

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Speaker 1: thing's for sure. Imagination is what separates the brilliant human

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Speaker 1: mind from the animals. Or is it? You know me better?

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Speaker 1: By now We're about to talk about how I smug

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Speaker 1: humans aren't as unique as we thought. Joining me to

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Speaker 1: talk about imagination is comic artist and author of The

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Speaker 1: Red Dot Kim Winder. Thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: me today. I'm like super excited about our topic. Actually,

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Speaker 1: it's like right in my lane. Yeah. I I sometimes

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Speaker 1: when I'm writing notes, I've kind of tried to think

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Speaker 1: about what my guests might want to talk about, and

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Speaker 1: I've been reading your comics, and yeah, they're very imaginative.

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Speaker 1: I think that's kind of a big thing about being

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Speaker 1: a comic artist is thinking of making connections that you

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Speaker 1: don't normally make and then drawing down. Well, I appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: So I what I lack an actual talent, I'll make

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Speaker 1: up for imagination. I guess you're being too hard on yourself,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, it's I think. I think that's one of

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Speaker 1: the things that makes that makes us feel human is

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Speaker 1: having that imagination, being able to creatively apply our ideas

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Speaker 1: in art, in comedy, in comics and movies. But I

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Speaker 1: do kind of want to talk about how we're not

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Speaker 1: unique in the animal kingdom in terms of being able

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Speaker 1: to have an imagination. Now, I'm not sure that any

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Speaker 1: animals have learned to do comic artistry. So you're safe

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Speaker 1: right now in terms of like goodness. Yeah, like pigeons

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Speaker 1: taking over your job. I don't think that's going to

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Speaker 1: happen anytime soon. But unlike for me a podcaster, I

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Speaker 1: believe that time is not I mean, birds can already talk,

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Speaker 1: so you know, oh yeah, no, my dog would be

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Speaker 1: all over the podcast industry. Oh yeah, I mean my

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Speaker 1: dog would be all over my face, say, on the

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Speaker 1: podcast industry, and just like breathing heavily into the mic.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, I bet it'd be more successful

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Speaker 1: than me. You know what. Dogs just have that that advantage,

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Speaker 1: so I can't argue with it, that natural charisma. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe I should start a new podcast called dog Sounds.

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Speaker 1: But anyways, until then, let's talk about animals imaginations. So,

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Speaker 1: in the strictest sense, we already know that rats have

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Speaker 1: been absolutely proven to have an imagination. Measurements of their

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Speaker 1: brain activity shows them planning out roots through mazes, both

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Speaker 1: wild conscious or wild dreaming. So we know that animals

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Speaker 1: can imagine things like they can conceptualize things like rat

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Speaker 1: is thinking of going through maze. It's gone through a

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Speaker 1: maze before. Researchers have measured the brain activity, found a pattern,

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Speaker 1: and then you see that rat is repeating that pattern

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Speaker 1: when it's not in the maze, so it's it's thinking

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Speaker 1: about being in the maze so it can remember and

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Speaker 1: adapt next time it's put to it. Precisely. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: kind of understandable that animals would be able to do

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Speaker 1: at last, at least that. But when we think about imagination,

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Speaker 1: we think of more than just remembering things in locations

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Speaker 1: and um actually coming up with new things. Were being

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Speaker 1: able to think in a kind of symbolic manner. And

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Speaker 1: in fact, I think that one of the most compelling

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Speaker 1: cases of imagination and animals is in primates, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's through a variety of observational research. It's pretty

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Speaker 1: clear to me at least that primates definitely have an

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Speaker 1: imagination that's close to what humans have. So researchers observed

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Speaker 1: a juvenile chimpanzee named Kakama pick up a log and

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Speaker 1: carry it around, treating it like a baby. He made

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Speaker 1: a nest for it and cared for it, and the

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Speaker 1: researchers called it Kacama's toy baby, just as log that

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Speaker 1: he's using as like a baby chimpanzee doll. That must

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Speaker 1: have been the cutest log, like adorable, chubby cheeked log, exactly,

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Speaker 1: the softest log ever. Yeah, it's got like two stick

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Speaker 1: arms and face made out of knots and roots. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it is, I don't know, it's like that's a

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Speaker 1: behavior you would see in a child picking up a

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Speaker 1: toy and loving it like a baby doll, and then

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Speaker 1: to see it in a chimpanzee is I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's almost spooky in a way to see how similar

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Speaker 1: that is, right, Like it makes sense because what else

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Speaker 1: is the primary going to do besides just sit there

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Speaker 1: and wait to eat, sleep. Yeah that so to keep

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Speaker 1: itself entertained. Just personifying object that that is really interesting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: or chimpanzonify, chimpify an object. I'm for it, just don't

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Speaker 1: ask me to spoil it. Also, a benobo named Kanzi

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Speaker 1: has been studied by primatologists extensively, and this is a

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Speaker 1: pretty remarkable individual. So Kanzi was in a research program

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Speaker 1: that tried to teach primates lexigram language, so that symbols

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Speaker 1: used to represent whole words. Okay, like uh, patrical epics,

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Speaker 1: but yeah yeah, okay, um like hieroglyphics. Yeah, exactly. When

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Speaker 1: they were trying to teach Kanzi's mother, like she wasn't

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Speaker 1: interested at all, she wasn't really taking to it. But

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Speaker 1: Conzi was there just accompanying the mother because like they

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Speaker 1: don't want to be separated. That would stress them, so

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Speaker 1: the researchers would keep them together. You can't just give

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Speaker 1: them a log and here's your here's your replacement with

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Speaker 1: your substitute log for your baby. But actually Kanzi picked

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Speaker 1: up on the lessons even though he wasn't being explicitly taught,

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Speaker 1: and he was able to learn how to use the

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Speaker 1: lexigrams to communicate in limited ways. So when he here's

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Speaker 1: a spoken word, he can actually point to the correct alexagram.

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Speaker 1: And he can also use this like alexagram to do

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Speaker 1: novel things, So the researchers will point to alexagrams as

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Speaker 1: a command. So like like feed the ball some tomato,

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Speaker 1: which doesn't really make that much sense, but when he

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Speaker 1: sees it, he like picked up a ball shaped object

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Speaker 1: and tried to feed it tomato, which is something. Actually

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Speaker 1: they tested it him up against a toddler and the

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Speaker 1: toddler didn't know what to do with that. But smarter

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Speaker 1: than a toddler. There you go. So okay, hold on,

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Speaker 1: if if he can do that and he has thumbs,

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Speaker 1: he just needs to get an iPad and he can

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Speaker 1: start his own comics. So honestly, not too good right

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Speaker 1: now is for Kim today? Yeah, I mean he's close.

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Speaker 1: He's getting close because he knows what symbols are exactly.

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Speaker 1: He oh and actually he's he knows how to use

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Speaker 1: tools too, So he was able to be taught how

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Speaker 1: to create stone flakes. So that's sharp edges of a

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Speaker 1: rock that have been split off, like flaked off, and

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Speaker 1: then that sharp edge is used in like I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was used by prehistoric humans and a lot of

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Speaker 1: things and human ancestors and Neanderthals to create tools and

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Speaker 1: as basically as these very simple knives, and like he

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Speaker 1: was taught how to do this in order to cut

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Speaker 1: a rope to get a food reward, and he was

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Speaker 1: able to do it. Dang. Yeah, Okay, well, so we've

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Speaker 1: armed the super intelligent bonobo with a knife, taught it

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Speaker 1: how to use language. You know, next we'll give it

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Speaker 1: an iPad and it'll just you know, I gotta watch

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Speaker 1: my back. It's coming for you. But yeah, the reason

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Speaker 1: I bring up Kanzi is not just to brag about

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Speaker 1: how smart he is, but also to show how imagination

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Speaker 1: works in a very smart animal. So Kanzi has been

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Speaker 1: observed playing make believe with imaginary objects. He will hide

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Speaker 1: imaginary objects under blankets or leaves, and then he'll like

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Speaker 1: later come back, lift up the blanket or leaf, take

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Speaker 1: out the imaginary object and pretend like he's eating it,

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Speaker 1: like it's this like a fake piece of food that

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Speaker 1: he's hid in. There's cool. Yeah, which is something that

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Speaker 1: I feel like I do when I'm watching cooking shows,

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Speaker 1: like pretend like I've been really into the Great Bit

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Speaker 1: British Bake offf have you seen that. I've heard they're

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Speaker 1: incredibly nice to each other. Sweet. Um. Usually know what

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Speaker 1: you look for in reality TV, you look for people

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Speaker 1: just viciously bullying each other. Um, but it is actually

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Speaker 1: very refreshing for them to just be nice. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: I can't sit and watch those things just because, like

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Speaker 1: you're saying, I could have eaten an entire meal and

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Speaker 1: oh my god, and I'm just salivating, pretending like one

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Speaker 1: of they're delicious savory of Claire's is in my hands,

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Speaker 1: like shoving it in my mouth somehow that doesn't make

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Speaker 1: it better, but I think Zi has a better imagination

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Speaker 1: than I do. And he will also take these so

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Speaker 1: like he's hidden a fake berry under relief or something.

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Speaker 1: We don't know what it is. We can't read Conzie's mind,

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Speaker 1: but he's hitting a fake piece of food under relief

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Speaker 1: and then he takes it out and he's like playing

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Speaker 1: with this imaginary thing, and then he'll like pretend to

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Speaker 1: hand it to someone and then he'll watch what they do,

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Speaker 1: which really reminds me of what children do. Some of

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Speaker 1: my cousins have have babies, and it's really fun to

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Speaker 1: like they'll try to get you involved in like imagination things,

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Speaker 1: and then they'll hand you something and you're like, I

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Speaker 1: don't I don't know what to do with if I

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Speaker 1: don't know what you want, and you can tell they

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Speaker 1: want a specific thing, like they hand you a leaf

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Speaker 1: and it's like that leaf is a race car and

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Speaker 1: you will treat it as such or there will be consequences.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, No. My nephews he's four, so he's super

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Speaker 1: into like the action figures, and we were playing with

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Speaker 1: it off the couch and he pushed my action figure

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Speaker 1: off the couch very rudely, but suddenly the couch turned

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Speaker 1: into the most giant cliff ever, and then he burst

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Speaker 1: into flames apparently at the bottom. Well that's what happens

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Speaker 1: when you fall off a cliff generally. Yeah, that's what

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Speaker 1: I get for not being a very strong superhero. So

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Speaker 1: your nephew killed your superhero. Um, yes, but then he

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Speaker 1: brought him back and kissed him on the forehead, So

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Speaker 1: well yeah, then that's fine. Yeah we made up. It

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Speaker 1: burst into flames, you know, like burns all over his buddy,

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Speaker 1: but a kiss on the forehead. That makes all better.

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Speaker 1: The power of imagination, power of imagination, and heels all

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Speaker 1: grievous wounds. Another instance of a primate showing incredible imagination

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Speaker 1: was in a chimpanzee named Vicky, who was raised by

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Speaker 1: humans in a human home. Generally not recommended. I would

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Speaker 1: say for chimpanzee, she would have these pull toys. So

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Speaker 1: a pull toy is like a toy on wheel, like

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Speaker 1: a wooden duck or horse that you pull along. I'm

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Speaker 1: not really sure that that people have those anymore. I

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Speaker 1: was thinking like a pool, as in swimming. Sorry, now

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Speaker 1: that's just my weird, weird Southern Californian accent. It's a

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Speaker 1: pole toy, a poll toy, much quainter and wakier than

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Speaker 1: a noodle, a pool noodle. I don't I do like

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Speaker 1: the pool noodles, though they're fun to pretend like they're

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Speaker 1: giant lightsaber. Yes, but she had she was pulling around.

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Speaker 1: She would pull around these pole toys, and then she

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Speaker 1: would also reportedly sometimes pretend to be pulling a toy

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Speaker 1: that is not there, like an invisible toy. She's dragging

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Speaker 1: her hand behind her, pretending to pull it along, and

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Speaker 1: then she would pause and like yank on it as

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Speaker 1: if it's stuck somewhere, and sometimes even wait for her

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Speaker 1: caretaker to come over and then like fix the the

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Speaker 1: toy up before she kept going along. So it's a

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Speaker 1: really interesting case of this imaginative play. Yeah, that's and

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Speaker 1: then making the caretaker get involved in the play, which

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Speaker 1: is yeah, which is what we saw with Kanzi, who's

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Speaker 1: a binobo, and this is a different this is a chimpanzee,

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Speaker 1: and they both were trying to get human beings who

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Speaker 1: to them are their you know, companions, because they're in

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Speaker 1: these artificial environments. They're trying to get them involved in

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Speaker 1: the pretend play, which is something children do human children,

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Speaker 1: And I find that really interesting because I think it

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Speaker 1: the implication being that imaginative play has some kind of

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Speaker 1: social aspect to it as well. Definitely. And yeah, and

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Speaker 1: that's something we also share with bonobos and chimpanzees, is

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Speaker 1: the high levels of socializing, and that's it's it's really

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Speaker 1: interesting to see how they use that as a way

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Speaker 1: to communicate with humans. It's all going to regress though,

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Speaker 1: when they get their own version of The Great bake

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Speaker 1: Off and everyone just stays in their little caves watch

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Speaker 1: Chimpanzee Netflix and like they're the Great Buonabo bake Off

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Speaker 1: and it's just like, uh, just amount of poop that

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Speaker 1: they like. And then they have like Hairy Bear, which

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Speaker 1: is a judge for the Bonobo bake Off, and she's

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Speaker 1: like it's like, oh, like, how we've we've constructed this poobcake.

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Speaker 1: The flavor is quite very poopy. I would say, I

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Speaker 1: don't like your your use of leaves as decor. I

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Speaker 1: want one of them, one of the judges to be

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Speaker 1: a log and it's just over, that's the worst insult.

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Speaker 1: But the log has voted you off. Yeah, but it's

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Speaker 1: not just primates that seem to have some a way

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Speaker 1: of visualizing the world through imagination. And I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about sloth bears. First, I have to show you

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Speaker 1: a picture of a soft bear, because they're very if

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Speaker 1: you look, yeah, okay, they're really cute bears. They're smaller bears.

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Speaker 1: They weigh around a hundred to two hundred pounds, for

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Speaker 1: which fore bears not up and they are native to India,

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Speaker 1: Sri Lanka, and Nepaul. They live in rainforest, savannah, and grasslands,

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Speaker 1: kind of a wide variety of habitat uh and they

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Speaker 1: are kind of shaggy. They've got this black, shaggy fur.

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Speaker 1: They've got a little white bibs strap around their chest,

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Speaker 1: and these these floppy shaggy ears. I think that kind

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Speaker 1: of bear was the model for Blue from the Jungle,

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Speaker 1: but interesting because it fits his character to like very

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Speaker 1: laid back, kind of stoner vibe totally. Yeah. I mean

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Speaker 1: they do amble along in a very light, kind of sauntering,

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Speaker 1: lazy vibe, like in the way that I think Blue

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Speaker 1: was animated that kind of like, you know, like a

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Speaker 1: little loosey goosey kind of walk. They kind of flapped

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Speaker 1: their paws on the ground in this sort of dopey way.

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Speaker 1: They actually are despite looking kind of dopey and goofy.

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Speaker 1: They can run faster than a person can, and they

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Speaker 1: can climb trees very efficiently. The yeah, which is like

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Speaker 1: you can't it's hard to imagine blue like you know,

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Speaker 1: four twenty blaze it and then suddenly climbing a tree.

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Speaker 1: But that is what they do. Ate the last of

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Speaker 1: doritos and after you he's gone that dorrito high now yeah,

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Speaker 1: flame and hot cheetos energy that comes upon you. Yes,

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Speaker 1: very dangerous, but they have. The reason they're called sloth

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Speaker 1: bears is they have really long claws like a sloth,

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Speaker 1: which they can use in combat, but mostly it's used

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Speaker 1: to dig up their favorite food, which is termites, ants

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Speaker 1: and other insects. O mine too? Oh good? Yeah? You

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Speaker 1: have protein common, Yeah, a lot of protein. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's true that a lot of processed foods will have

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Speaker 1: some insect parts in it because of factories and how

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Speaker 1: just stuff is. You know, like if you make bread

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Speaker 1: and you gather a bunch of grain, chances are you're

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Speaker 1: going to have insects in it. And at first that

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Speaker 1: kind of disturbed me. Yeah, and now it's just like, hey,

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Speaker 1: free protein. You know, well, my life was forever change

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Speaker 1: when I found out like red velvet cupcakes because those

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Speaker 1: were my favorite. The red comes from like a certain

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Speaker 1: beetle in the die. Yeah, red die. Okay. So there's

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Speaker 1: there's a couple of different red dyes, and there's a

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Speaker 1: red dye that does not come from insects, but there

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Speaker 1: is another red dye that is is synthesized from I

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Speaker 1: think a type of beetle. It like it sounds like

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Speaker 1: it could be just an urban legend, like my mom

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Speaker 1: wanted me to stop eating. Okay, I don't think it is. Actually, no,

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Speaker 1: it's not. Okay. Yeah, So here's here's the straight up

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Speaker 1: facts about insect die that I definitely did not google.

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Speaker 1: Just now. The it's a it's called a cocineal insect.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure pronounced that good. Uh. The insect actually creates

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Speaker 1: a carmenic acid that is used to deter predation. But

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Speaker 1: that carminic, said, can also be used to make carmine die,

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Speaker 1: which is a red dye, and carmine is used in

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Speaker 1: food and lipstick. It's I guess it's natural red number

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Speaker 1: four Okay, Uh, I can actually, so it's interesting for me,

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Speaker 1: red dye taste nasty. Now I'm not sure if it's

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Speaker 1: this type of red die, but there is a of

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Speaker 1: flavor of red dye, uh, and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: can't taste it. Some people can taste it. I'm one

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Speaker 1: of the unfortunate people who can taste it. So red

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Speaker 1: velvet cupcakes, if it's made with that die taste like

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Speaker 1: ass to me, it's well probably saving yourself for you know,

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Speaker 1: those actual termites and beetles that are more healthier. Exactly

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Speaker 1: the healthier the given me a beetle cupcake over redde

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Speaker 1: cupcake any day. But yeah, so these slock bears, we'll

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Speaker 1: suck up termites and ants from their mounds. They actually have.

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Speaker 1: One of the reasons they look so doofy and dope,

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Speaker 1: they have really long lips, so their lower lip kind

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Speaker 1: of protrudes, and they make this really loud sucking noise

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Speaker 1: when vacuuming up the termines out of their mound, just

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Speaker 1: like that's how you know it's good. Yeah, yeah, And

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Speaker 1: they'll use their long claws to dig up and then

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Speaker 1: they suck and shove their nose in and snort and

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Speaker 1: suck and sometimes they'll you know, suck on their paws,

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Speaker 1: and there have been documented cases of them sucking on

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Speaker 1: certain other things that sus that are is a little

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Speaker 1: socially awkward for you. I mean, look, it's what would

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Speaker 1: you do if you were stuck in a zoo all day? Exactly? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Not not not not do that, yeah, not explore the

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Speaker 1: possibilities of things. We just we satisfied our appetite. Appetite,

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Speaker 1: Now we've got other appetites exactly like wash your hands saying. So,

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Speaker 1: the reason I bring up sloth bears is that they

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Speaker 1: actually have been researched about their ability to understand the

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Speaker 1: connection between symbols and like imagining a certain food and

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Speaker 1: that actual food. So researchers have presented sloth bears with

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Speaker 1: an assortment of two dimensional pictures that represent the food

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Speaker 1: that they like, So meal worms, nuts, raisins, kibble, oranges,

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Speaker 1: various like photos sort of simplified photos of these things,

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Speaker 1: high definition that are on this two D thing, and

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Speaker 1: they'll show it to the bear. The bear will look

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Speaker 1: at it and like snort at the food that they want,

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Speaker 1: and then they will receive that food. So they were

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Speaker 1: trained that when they like snort at it, then they

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Speaker 1: get that food and that snorting behavior is associated with,

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Speaker 1: like when they find a food that they want, they

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Speaker 1: snort and snuffle off. I guess it up, just like

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Speaker 1: they do with a yeah. And so zookeepers are hopeful

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Speaker 1: that this will help them did determine like give the

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Speaker 1: bears some more choice at at zoos, but like captive bears,

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Speaker 1: especially because one of the problems with keeping animals at

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Speaker 1: zoos in captivity. Even if it's a really humane zoo

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Speaker 1: like the San Diego Zoo where they are kept in

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Speaker 1: really nice environment, it's still a lack of space. It's

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Speaker 1: not ideal, and animals can get bored. And when they

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Speaker 1: get bored and have a lack of stimulation and a

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Speaker 1: lack of control over their environment, they can actually start

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Speaker 1: doing these kind of O c D like behaviors. Now

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Speaker 1: it's not I actually have O c D. It's not

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Speaker 1: quite o c D, but it's a similar thing where

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Speaker 1: they do these compulsive repetitive behaviors like compulsive grooming. They'll

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Speaker 1: like lick bald patches into their fur. But giving them

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Speaker 1: control over their environment has shown to be effective in

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Speaker 1: helping them in this way and making them less bored

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Speaker 1: and making them more psychologically healthy. So giving them a

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Speaker 1: choice in their food and their diet is thought to

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Speaker 1: perhaps give them healthier um or giving giving them a

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Speaker 1: better state of mind, keeping them in a better mood.

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Speaker 1: And it's really funny because these bears definitely have overall

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Speaker 1: preferences for food, so they seem to prefer meal, worms, nuts, prunes,

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Speaker 1: and raisins, which you know, makes those tasty stuff. And

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Speaker 1: they all basically hate kibble and oranges. I'm just gonna say,

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Speaker 1: like out of all of it, even the insects. Okay, yes,

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Speaker 1: because their bears, and it exists in nature. Where do

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Speaker 1: we get kibble? Like, hey, we're just throwing well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know that is it is an interesting thing to

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Speaker 1: show that these animals will often prefer these fresh, natural

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Speaker 1: foods versus kibble, and it is something to I guess

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Speaker 1: note when we're keeping these wild animals in captivity, of like,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of hard to keep them happy with just

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Speaker 1: you know, kibble and stuff. You can't just give them

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Speaker 1: sort of a tray of brown pellets and expect them

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Speaker 1: to necessarily be happy about it. Oh no, my dog,

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Speaker 1: he's just everyday same thing, so excited, cannot wait until

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Speaker 1: he has his dog food yeah, but he's also he's

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Speaker 1: also domesticated dog. Yeah, well, I mean and also I

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Speaker 1: mean my dog is not too much of a picky eater,

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Speaker 1: but definitely I will change. I've been chasing, chasing the

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Speaker 1: kibble to find her favorite brand, and I think I

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Speaker 1: finally found one that she goes nuts for because there

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Speaker 1: are other brands of kible that she's not so interested in.

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Speaker 1: What kind of pup do you have? She's a she's

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Speaker 1: a an amalgamation of small dogs, kind of like all

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Speaker 1: shoved into one tiny unit of your fury. She's a

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Speaker 1: I think she's a terrier and a spaniel mixed with

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Speaker 1: a Chihuahua or something. Um, yeah, it was a. It's

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Speaker 1: a it's just a ball of kind of just intense energy. Uh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but she's she's not too picky, but she deaf only

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Speaker 1: enjoys the fancier kibble, which is great thanks for having

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Speaker 1: expensive taste stuff. And then of course she likes the

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Speaker 1: enrichment of having like different types of food in addition

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Speaker 1: to the kibble. Yeah. Well, my my pup, Charlie, he

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Speaker 1: just he's totally fine eating the same Rachel Ray dog

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Speaker 1: food over and over in just but he he only

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Speaker 1: likes to eat when I'm eating. Oh, that's interesting. He's

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Speaker 1: a social eater. Yeah, he won't eat until I have food,

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Speaker 1: and then he gets mad that I'm not eating it

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Speaker 1: right right, just s it's a huff. Yeah, yeah, I

401
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: mean you've got to join them, join in, put your

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Speaker 1: phone down, join him at the dinner table, and have

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Speaker 1: an actual conversation. Where does imagination happen in the brain? Well,

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Speaker 1: as you may know, things don't necessarily always live in

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Speaker 1: parts of the brain. You don't have a circle of

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Speaker 1: brain tissue that serves as your imagination palace, because the

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Speaker 1: brain is interconnected with parallel processes and patterns of neural activity.

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Speaker 1: But that's not to say we can't take a stab

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Speaker 1: at the question of where and how imagination is processed.

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Speaker 1: And it turns out that imagined events take a different

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Speaker 1: path from reality inside our heads. A study by Tononi

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Speaker 1: at All published in NeuroImage found that imagination flows differently

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Speaker 1: in the brain than reality. When you're looking at an image,

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Speaker 1: neural activity flows up from the occipital lobe at the

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Speaker 1: back of your brain towards the prietal lobe at the

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Speaker 1: top of your brain. When you're imagining something, neural activity

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Speaker 1: flows in the opposite direction, down from the prioral lobe

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Speaker 1: to the occipital lobe. This doesn't mean imagination originates in

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Speaker 1: the prietal lobe, simply that it seems to travel in

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Speaker 1: a certain path through the brain. But imagination isn't the

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Speaker 1: same for everyone. For me, imagination may mean thinking of

422
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 1: giant rainbow colored velvet worms who I'm best friends with.

423
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: But other folks actually have a more conceptual imagination, something

424
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: called a fantasia, which will discuss when we return. In

425
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: the meantime, I'll be hanging out with my imaginary We're friends.

426
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 1: This one's name is Rank. Let's take a trip to

427
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: imagination station too. Well, hang on what happens when we

428
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 1: go to imagination station. It's actually different for everyone. Do

429
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: you know how vivid your imagination is? Do you have

430
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: a highly detailed visual imagination or are you more conceptual

431
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: thinking and ideas. There's a test to see where you

432
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: lie on this scale, called the Vividness of Visual Imagery Questionnaire.

433
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: You can actually take this test on a University of

434
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: Exeter survey website, and I'll include a link to it

435
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: in the show notes. But in the meantime, let's go

436
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 1: on a very special imagination station tour of your imagination. So,

437
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: first of all, imagine one of your friends, someone you

438
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: see all the time. Now, really consider what picture is

439
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: forming in your mind. Can you see their face, the

440
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: color of their eyes, What about the pose they're in,

441
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: their hand gestures? Can you see the shirt they're wearing?

442
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: What color is it when they walk? What does their

443
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 1: gait look like? Now imagine the sun rising in a

444
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: hazy sky? Can you see this vividly? Can you see

445
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: the blue sky around the sun? Now, imagine a storm

446
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: is coming. Can you see the clouds form around the sun,

447
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: the light peeking through, maybe lightning illuminating the storm clouds

448
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: from within? Now imagine a giant, hairy tarantula about to

449
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: eat your butt. Now I'm just kidding. How vivid were

450
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 1: these images? Could you see them with clarity in your

451
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: mind's eye? Could you see vague shapes representing them? Or

452
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: could you see well, basically nothing but just the idea

453
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: of these concepts. If you fall under the latter category,

454
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 1: you may have a fantasia. So can where would you

455
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: say your mind's eye lies under? Like? Do you have

456
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: a very vivid imagination? Do you kind of have a

457
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 1: more representational imagination where you see kind of shapes, or

458
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: is it like purely conceptual where you don't actually see

459
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: the thing, but you understand the concept and you're thinking

460
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: of the concept. I think it's conceptual because I'll know

461
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: what I want to draw when it comes to the comic,

462
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: but it's not until I'm actually doing lines where I'm like,

463
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: I don't love that, Let's try it this way. I

464
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: would love to be more like visual in my head.

465
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: It just doesn't work that way, though, Well it doesn't,

466
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: and it's I don't think there's anything to feel bad about, necessarily,

467
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: because I think that, from what my research has told me,

468
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: is really created of people can have a fantasia. That

469
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you're not creative and not imaginative. It just

470
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: means that your brain works in a different way. It

471
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: doesn't visualize an object like it doesn't give you a

472
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: photo of that object in your brain. It just gives

473
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: you sort of the emotion and the concept, the intellectual

474
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,719
Speaker 1: concept of that thing, rather than that visual. For me,

475
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: I'm actually I think kind of at the other end

476
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: of the scale where I see very detailed I wouldn't

477
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: say like photographic representations, but very highly detailed things, and

478
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: that can be um it has its upsides, I guess,

479
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: like you can imagine stuff in vivid detail. It also

480
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: has its downsides because it can be anxiety in ducing.

481
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: And so I'm actually going to talk about hyper fantasia

482
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: as well and why that's not always such a great thing.

483
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: I don't think I have hyper fantasia, but I think

484
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: I'm kind of up there in terms of like like

485
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: seeing things in this like highly defined detail, and that

486
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: can be that can be interesting. It can also be

487
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: a little bit scary. I don't know if see that.

488
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: Like that never crossed my mind. Just being creative and

489
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: like having focused on detail personally, I always have thought

490
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: it's going to be a good thing. I'll use that

491
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: to my advantage. But you're totally right, like minute detail

492
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: and then concentrating on that, like I get anxiety too,

493
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: and now it's kind of like horrifying. It could also

494
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: be and it's not necessarily going to make you a

495
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: better artist, because if you have a very detailed image

496
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: of what something is supposed to look like in your head,

497
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,959
Speaker 1: it may actually be harder to draw it because you,

498
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: like say you're drawing from life or understanding the physics

499
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: of how you're supposed to draw something. If you have

500
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: an image that's in conflict with that and you're trying

501
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: to draw your mental image rather than what the thing

502
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: actually looks like, you can get this like conflict and

503
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: then it doesn't actually come out right. Not not to

504
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: say that it's like anyone who as a vivid imagination

505
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: can't do art. I just don't think it necessarily has

506
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: an impact on whether you can be artistic or creative.

507
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: And in fact, like, I mean, it's great to hear

508
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: from you because you're an artist in your you do

509
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: comic art and it's highly creative, and you are more

510
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not I'm not necessarily saying you have

511
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: a fantasia. I can't like diagnose you with that, but

512
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: you're maybe, well you're maybe more on that end of

513
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: I think it's a spectrum. It's like maybe you're more

514
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: on that end of the spectrum of more of a

515
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: conceptual thinker. So first let's talk about what a phantasia is,

516
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: how maybe it happens. So it's it actually might be

517
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: hard for people to understand, like who are highly visual,

518
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: like it might be actually kind of difficult to conceptualize

519
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: what that means. So, um, it's where your imagination works

520
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: such that it's not that you visualize the thing in

521
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: your mind. Um. So here's an example, and I've actually seen.

522
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: One of the reasons I wanted to do this episode

523
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: is there's this kind of viral thing going around on

524
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: Twitter where it's it's a picture where it's like a

525
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: bunch of different apples, and it's like imagine, it says,

526
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: imagine an apple, now which one of these apples represents

527
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: what you imagine? And then there's like a photo of

528
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: an apple, kind of a drawing of an apple, and

529
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: then a sort of blobby, like more cartoonish apple, and

530
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: then there's just sort of a vague apple like shape,

531
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: and then there's like a blank like you don't see

532
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: it at all. Where would you say you lie on

533
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: that kind of I mean, I can show let me

534
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: just show it to you. Twitter trends are just like

535
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: all over the place. Sometimes I'm right there, but I

536
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: can see, like I can see that being devolved into

537
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: a meme to like how I am my first glass

538
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: of wine versus I am on my eighth bottle of light. Yeah.

539
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: So this is from Twitter user at premium underscore heart

540
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: and she has this image of apples, So where would

541
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: you they're like, number one is like a photo of

542
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: an apple, Number two is like a cartoon, Three is

543
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: like a grayish image for is more of a blobbish shape,

544
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: and five is just like blank. I would say it

545
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: really depends on what kind of thing is going on

546
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,479
Speaker 1: in my head. So like today I didn't post a

547
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: new comic because I got stuck in the conception of

548
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: I want this to be done, but every time I

549
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: drew it out, it just it wasn't working. But in

550
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: my head it worked. So I would say, maybe the

551
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: grayish apple, like something's there, but it's not. It's not

552
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: the fully detailed apple, like right on it, right yeah,

553
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: And I would say I'm like, I also think there's

554
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: a range. And I think like even within like a

555
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: single person, even within like a single day, there's going

556
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: to be a range of stuff. So if I'm thinking

557
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: of someone I know, like I'm thinking of you know,

558
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: my boyfriend's, I can see something very clear. If I'm

559
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: trying to think of like I don't know, even a

560
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: celebrity that I don't I'm not too into, Like I

561
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: can't quite like I don't know. Well, now I can

562
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: imagine Reese Witherspoon really clearly actually, now that I think

563
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: of it, like she she's just right in there. But

564
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 1: I don't know a more obscure celebrity. Now again, Danny DeVito,

565
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: he's right there now, I'm see, I'm trying to think

566
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 1: of celebrity. I'm not always thinking of like Alton Brown.

567
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: I okay, yeah, that's extremely he's the cook. Yeah yeah, no,

568
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: I like is he does he wear glasses? Even? Yes, yeah,

569
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: it's very vague. I'm thinking of an apple with glasses now,

570
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 1: but yeah, so it's so I would say, I'm I'm

571
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: more of the like either the kind of detailed photographic

572
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: apple or cartoonish apple, kind of depending on where I'm at,

573
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: But it's usually like around there, and then you're on

574
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: towards sort of the middle end of the spectrum where

575
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 1: it's like the sort of grayish apple and then like

576
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: the more blobby one. Like I think a good example

577
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: is this happened a few years ago. Me and my

578
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: friends went to the Hollywood Bowl to see a show,

579
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: and I was newer to the area because I moved

580
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: to California from a very rural Nevada. But I was

581
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: always looking for famous people and you're not going to

582
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: see Tom Hanks walking down the street, right, But we

583
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: were crossing the street and there was I don't even

584
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: know his name, but um he was in in a

585
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: couple of movies. But I had to I had to

586
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: google bald comedian actor. No, you know Diesel none, the

587
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: Rock Johnson. Oh no, I can't. I'm just naming all

588
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: the like. I think he's he does Children's hospital on

589
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,959
Speaker 1: like Adults. Rob Cordry me Rock Cordry. Yeah, I saw

590
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: that guy. Yeah, but it was like I had the

591
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: idea of, like I connection, but it's not there. It

592
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: looks like an apple with sunglasses exactly, Alton Brown's like

593
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: twin exactly. Yeah, it's it's very interesting. And so for

594
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: people who don't imagine anything like, it's basically not they

595
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: don't see a visual representation at all. It's just the

596
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: concept of Rob Cordry. It's that's a fantasia and a

597
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 1: vividness of like I said before, vividness of mental imageries

598
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: on a spectrum going basically from hyper fantasia that's like

599
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 1: extremely vivid imagination to a fantasia where it's almost completely conceptual,

600
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,800
Speaker 1: and researchers are it's kind of a new field of study.

601
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: It's not super well understood. But there was a study

602
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: published in Cortex by Ko and Gerson who sought to

603
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: examine whether a fantasia was actually your brain not coming

604
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: up with the mental imagery or just that you're not

605
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: conscious of it. So your brain is forming the like

606
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,479
Speaker 1: our consciousness is weird. We can form things in our brain,

607
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: have information that is happening in our brain that we're

608
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: just not conscious of. But they did this, uh, it's

609
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 1: called the binocular rivalry test. So our eyes, if you

610
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: have information going into one eye and information going into

611
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: the other eye is processed in the brain like in

612
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: different parts. So like if your eyes are presented with

613
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: two different images and you're not seeing like you're not

614
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: seeing the shared image, Like say you have a wall

615
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: between those two images and you're just you're facing that wall.

616
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 1: There's the left image in the right image. Or another

617
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 1: way to do it is actually to have one image

618
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: b um be red and the other image b Cian

619
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: that that blue color, and then you wear the red

620
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: and Cian blue glas that are used in three D

621
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: and you're wearing that and so you can only see

622
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: the red one with the red side of the glasses

623
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: and the blue one with the blue side of the glasses.

624
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: Either way, essentially, you're presenting one image that only one

625
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: eye can see and the other image that only the

626
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: other I can see. And what happens in the brain

627
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: is actually your brain isn't necessarily combining these images. It

628
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: is flipping back and forth between them, so like animation, Yeah,

629
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 1: kind of okay, which is interesting, but it eventually your

630
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 1: brain will start to favor one image over the other,

631
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 1: and the other image will fade away and the one

632
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: image will become dominant. What happens is that for people

633
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: who can imagine images, and it's basically anyone who doesn't

634
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 1: have a fantasia, because these are very simple, like shapes

635
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: and patterns, and if you prime them by either showing

636
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: them a very faint image that's like barely consciously uh perceivable,

637
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: and then you you prime them with that, people will

638
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: be more likely to like, once your eyeballs are arguing

639
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: over which image your brain should be thinking about, it'll

640
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: tend to think about that image that you were primed with.

641
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: And it does that make sense? It does? And I'm

642
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 1: just like I'm absorbing this information and at the same

643
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: time thinking, thank God, like I'm not high because I

644
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: was just like just a random rabbit hole of like

645
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 1: conception and visualization. And what if our brain is just

646
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 1: an eyeball, man, Yeah, man, if we've never even seen

647
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: our own eyeballs, with our own eyeballs and my eyeballs

648
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: pick which one, it's just just slowly go into madnese. Well,

649
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: so you're so if you're also asked to imagine this

650
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: one of the shapes like that, also, you will be

651
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,399
Speaker 1: primed to pick that one as your your eyeballs are

652
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 1: taking It's not really your eyeballs that are arguing over

653
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: it's your brain that correspond the parts of your brain

654
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 1: that correspond with those visual fields that are arguing over

655
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: which image to decide on seeing. Essentially all right, So

656
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: just just to kind of do a quick recap summary.

657
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: So it's like you get one image in the left eye,

658
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 1: one image in the right eye, your brain argues over

659
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: which to see, and you end up seeing one like

660
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: say it's the right image, and you know, normally it

661
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: basically corresponds with chance. Once you've controlled for like the

662
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: dominant eye, we're not really going to get into that

663
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: too much. It just kind of complicates things. But yeah,

664
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: once you've controlled for that, it's basically random which image

665
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: you choose. And then when you're primed with an image,

666
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 1: it no longer is random. Your brain is like, oh, okay,

667
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 1: let's actually do that image. We decide to see that

668
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 1: one rather than the other one. With people with a fantasia,

669
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: that priming does not work. Oh, they remain at chance

670
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: in terms of which image they their brain decides on

671
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: seeing when they're having that eyeballs argument. And essentially what

672
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: that means is that people with a fantasia are not

673
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 1: The idea of why that test, that binocular rivalry test

674
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: works is that when that image is flashed in your brain,

675
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: that priming image, it creates a pattern of activation in

676
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: the brain, like you're a pattern of activation being your

677
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,720
Speaker 1: neurons firing in a certain way. And once that happens,

678
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,959
Speaker 1: it's actually lowered the threshold of that pattern being able

679
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 1: to being reignited, essentially, because your brain is consut your

680
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: brain is visualizing that, it's it's actually forming that image

681
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: in your head. And then like when you're trying to

682
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: argue over these which image to prefer later that kind

683
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: of image that has formed in your brain is still

684
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: there and it's like, okay, what about this one. Essentially,

685
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: so people with a fantasia cannot be primed to favor

686
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: one of these images, which basically that means that their

687
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: brain is not forming that image in there imagination, like

688
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: they can't. They aren't forming that image. So being primed

689
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: with it earlier and having that image being imagined like

690
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: by the other participants isn't really happening for the people

691
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: with a fantasia. So when they go through the test,

692
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: they are still at random chance over which image they prefer,

693
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: even when they're primed with one of the images. So

694
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: it's that's a really interesting test that shows like not

695
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: only I mean people with a fantasia probably are like

696
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 1: of course it's real, but obviously sometimes people are doubtful

697
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: of like are you are you sure? Are you? Just

698
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: like not thinking hard enough? But okay, going back to

699
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: being high, it's like because we can't conceptualize it, but

700
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: they can because they can't. Yes, yeah, yeah, but they

701
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 1: are not high like in the corner. Yes, yes, this

702
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: is a This is not the podcast to necessarily get

703
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: high on or to get very high on I'm not sure.

704
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: Don't you drugs kids? This has been a production of

705
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: Katie Golden crap. Now, I don't know. So people with

706
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: a fantasia when they do tests that are measuring like

707
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: how can you visualize this object, they're obviously not visualizing

708
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 1: it like other people do. But when they're tested on

709
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: spatial understanding and rotating objects in three D space they

710
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: have they're just as good as anyone else, which is

711
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: really interesting. So it's not it's not that they're unable

712
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: to understand physical concepts like this is something different. This

713
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 1: is thought to maybe be a difference between the where

714
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 1: and what pathways of the brain. So the two stream

715
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: process of visual perception is the hypothesis that your visual

716
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: cortex processes what and where information along two different pathways.

717
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: So what information is like what an apple looks like?

718
00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: What is an apple? Even who even likes apples is

719
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: in the what pathway? And then where is like where

720
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: is the apple? Why is it being thrown towards my face? Brown? Stop?

721
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: Where where is Alton Brown? And where where did this

722
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: apple come from? So the two stream process isn't as

723
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: clean cut as it sounds. Probably, so recent research suggests

724
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 1: that um that what and where pathways in the brain

725
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: aren't completely separate processes. There's some cross pollination, there's some

726
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: like you know, communication going on, and things aren't just

727
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 1: neatly segmented into these different like pathways of the brain.

728
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: But it's still a good heuristic to kind of understand like, um,

729
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: how visual process sort of work. So now if I'm

730
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: totally off, like this just does not make sense for

731
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: someone that needed glasses, would that change like how they

732
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 1: would have, um a fantation like I didn't get glasses

733
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: until I was about seventeen, and then when I did,

734
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: holy like sorry, I was blind. But with that like

735
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: theoretically mess with my my ideas on conception. That's a

736
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: really interesting question. I don't know the answer to that,

737
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: but that is a really really interesting idea, which is that, like,

738
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: because we do know that as babies to young childhood

739
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: or your brain is going under massive developmental changes, so

740
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: they're certainly could be an environmental cause in the kind

741
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 1: of different maybe the way that the brain develops, like

742
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: the the what pathway of the brain and the ability

743
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 1: to visualize things made in fact developed differently if you're

744
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: site is different. I don't actually know if that's the case.

745
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: But I think that's a really interesting question that you

746
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: bring up. Well, I just because you're taking it in visually,

747
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: you have aid now, and is it even possible to

748
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: make that chemical change in the trail like it you mean, like, well,

749
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: it's our brains. So as we're developing, our brains grow

750
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: and develop, and it is that growth of our neural

751
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: pathways and the way our brains work essentially is definitely

752
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 1: shaped by environment. And this specific instance, I don't know

753
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: if like eyesight change in childhood would have an impact

754
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: on a fantasia. I don't know one way or the other.

755
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: But it's not a crazy idea at all, Like the

756
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: idea that I think I want to do a whole

757
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: episode on, like on stuff like that, where how the

758
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 1: brain can change throughout development depending on different environmental factors,

759
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: especially when you're say you experience blindness or or hearing

760
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 1: impairment or something, and how that causes changes in the

761
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 1: development of the brain, because it certainly does. Well, you

762
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 1: see like all those viral videos of um either a

763
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: deaf child or a blind person or a color blind

764
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 1: let's put it that way, So guy's never seen color

765
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: finally got these special glasses tusey color and then he cries,

766
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: I cry, We all cry. Everyone's sobbing. Yeah, but fally

767
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 1: change how like what do you mean the sky's the

768
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: same color as water? Right? It just right? Well, no,

769
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: I certainly, I certainly think that must have a an

770
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: effect on brain development. I don't know what that effect

771
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: necessarily is and how that that shakes out. It's not

772
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily that's not to say like someone who

773
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: has color blindness or visual impairment from a young age,

774
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: that's gonna, you know, quote unquote mess up your brain

775
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 1: or anything like that. I know you're not. I know

776
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: you're not saying that. I'm just clarifying that, but like that,

777
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: it's it's it is interesting like our sort of the

778
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: I guess, like our outer shells, which is like our

779
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: eyeballs and stuff, is outer our sensory equipment. If that changes,

780
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: if that's like different, it will affect like what's happening

781
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: in our brains and it will probably have an impact

782
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 1: on development. Um. Yeah, no, that's a very interesting point, right.

783
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: So like that to stream process that we were talking about,

784
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: let me get into kind of the anatomy of that.

785
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 1: You have the what pathway, which is processed in the

786
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: ventral stream. So that's basically along sort of the undercarriage

787
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 1: of the brain roughly speaking, and the wherein formation um,

788
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 1: like where where is a thing is processed on the

789
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 1: dorsal stream, So that's around the top of that. I

790
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: mean think of like a dorsal fin like around the

791
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: sort of like you know, like if your brain had

792
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 1: a big dorsal fin on it, but it doesn't. That's

793
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: my brain has a blow hole, and so that's the

794
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 1: that's the wear pathway. Like I said earlier, it's not

795
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: as super segmented, like it's not like everything to do

796
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 1: with location is in that dorsal stream and everything to

797
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: do with what a thing is and that there's not

798
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,320
Speaker 1: like cross parallel activation going on. That's not there certainly

799
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: is that, but generally speaking, you have more activity in

800
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 1: those parts of the brain. So for people with a fantasia,

801
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 1: there's this theory that the what pathway that that u

802
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 1: ventral stream under the brain is different from the general

803
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: population without a fantasia UM, whereas the wear pathway UM,

804
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 1: the dorsal stream at the top of the brain is

805
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 1: probably functioning in the same way. And that's why they

806
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: can do tests where they are able to do spatial

807
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: reasoning and you know, rotating three D objects and all

808
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:15,959
Speaker 1: of that perfectly fine. But that they're they're um, they're

809
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,240
Speaker 1: what is the item is functioning differently, not functioning worse,

810
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 1: but functioning differently. To that point, I want to talk

811
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 1: about that a fantasia sounds like, oh, it's the opposite

812
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: of fantasia, and therefore people with a fantasia have no imagination.

813
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,479
Speaker 1: Totally not true. I mean, first of all, Kim, you

814
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 1: are not You're maybe on I wouldn't say you have

815
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: a fantasia based on what you said, but you are

816
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 1: definitely like more conceptual in your thinking. Is that is

817
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 1: that fair to say, oh, yeah, I'll have a great idea,

818
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: but tell me to put it together. Well, you probably

819
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: are similar to some famous animators. So, um, your brain

820
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 1: thinking in concepts doesn't mean you're not thinking with clarity

821
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: or with detail. You're just thinking in conceptual and emotional detail. Um. So, like,

822
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 1: here's the difference between like visual detail like an image,

823
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 1: and a concept. So, like a visual thing would be

824
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: a picture of a house and you can see the bricks,

825
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:26,439
Speaker 1: you can see the doors, the dorners and the buttresses

826
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 1: and other archaeology or architectural popping out everywhere or what

827
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 1: they don't have bones in your bodies in the wall

828
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: is a true crime. But then a concept would be home.

829
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 1: That's a more vague thing. That's like that's where you

830
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 1: feel comfortable, that's where you can kick back. Maybe a

831
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 1: house doesn't just pop in your head, but your family.

832
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 1: The idea of being with family, of being able to

833
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 1: relax and like pick your nose and nobody judges you.

834
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: Here's another one, like a picture of like a fat

835
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,760
Speaker 1: stack of cash, like a bunch of dollar bills stacked together,

836
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:06,240
Speaker 1: you know, just like I don't know, like several bills,

837
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: fat stacks of more cash than you can imagine, or

838
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 1: versus like the concept of success is that's like a concept,

839
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: that's an idea. Um, So people with a fantasia when

840
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: you say imagine stacks of cash, they're not thinking of

841
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: a picture of stacks of cash. They're thinking of the

842
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 1: concept of stacks of cash. That is that kind of

843
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah, that well, it's all about one's perception.

844
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: Like success to me would have been going to my

845
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: high school reunion and be like sucking people doing great.

846
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: That is success. Success to me would be absolutely covered

847
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 1: in velvet worms. They're so cute. It's my most recent

848
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: They're very cute group of worms called velvet worms, and

849
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: we actually talk about them in my previous episode love Bugs.

850
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I tried, like bugs. Great, just

851
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: over there, just stay in your line. I got I

852
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,359
Speaker 1: get you, I get you. Well, let's talk about animation then,

853
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: because I have a feeling you'll enjoy that more so. Uh,

854
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: Like I said, people with a fantasia can be in

855
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: and often are in creative fields. So x Pixar president

856
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: ed Catmill had a fantasia. Yeah. Um, actually don't know

857
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 1: why I said had. I think he's still he's cured,

858
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: and so he reportedly has a fantasia where he says, yeah,

859
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 1: I don't visualize things in my head. It only is

860
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: like once I put it out there on paper that

861
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: it exists. Ed, hit me up. We could chat and

862
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 1: it doesn't stop there. Glenn Keene, the character doesn't Little Mermaid,

863
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin and more. He's the character

864
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: designer and super using animator. He also has a fantasia.

865
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: Do that makes so much sense because I'm obviously a

866
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 1: Disney um. So, like all on the DVDs of the

867
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: anime movies, I would watch the bonus content like religiously,

868
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: but there's always the segment of coming up with Ariel

869
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 1: or Jasmine, and it's always like my cousin's sister or

870
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 1: that's your cousin. But you know what I mean. They

871
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:32,320
Speaker 1: would take references and then piece it together to find Ariel.

872
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:37,760
Speaker 1: You know that it's all come together. Also, his initial

873
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 1: sketches of Ariel are not even really human. It's just

874
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 1: like like these big strokes that are very expressive, vaguely

875
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:50,479
Speaker 1: human shaped or I guess human fish shaped, um, And

876
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: they are extremely expressive, but they don't have a face.

877
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: And then he just kind of works on it, works

878
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,359
Speaker 1: on it until he gets Ariel as you know her.

879
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: So he working from and I think it's actually probably

880
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: his strength. He's not working from a photographic image of

881
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: what he sees Aerial to be. He's working from this concept,

882
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: this emotional concept of what her personality is. And then

883
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 1: he's putting that in the strokes. And then because you

884
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: can still be an artist and have a fantasia, because

885
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 1: you know how like the technical skill of art um,

886
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,800
Speaker 1: you know, then he can create her from that first

887
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: expressive thing, and it's really I think it you know,

888
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 1: you can view it as not necessarily a weakness to

889
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 1: have that. No, I would definitely say it's worked out

890
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 1: for him, and it is really neat to take something

891
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:45,439
Speaker 1: broad and condensed, condensed, condensed, Yeah, that's yeah, exactly. So

892
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 1: on the other end of that sort of visualization scale

893
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 1: is hyper fantasia. So hyper fantasia is extremely vivid imagination,

894
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 1: to the point where one person who had alf reported

895
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:04,720
Speaker 1: having hyper hyper fantasia said she passed out after reading

896
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 1: a story in which someone steps on a nail because

897
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 1: she visualized it in such vivid detail. Yeah. Yeah, So

898
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: it's not always great to to be able to imagine

899
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 1: in such vivid detail. It can actually be anxiety inducing.

900
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: Hyperfantasia hasn't actually been studied all that much, so it's

901
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 1: relatively mysterious. Um And I want to make it clear though.

902
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 1: Hyper fantasia is different from hallucination. You're not seeing something

903
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 1: before your eyes. You're you're seeing something in your imagination.

904
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:39,439
Speaker 1: You know, what's your imagination? Yeah, it's I think it's

905
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 1: a very interesting thing. I know that, like I was

906
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,879
Speaker 1: of an extremely strong day dreamer when I was a kid,

907
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 1: and I would visualize things in very precise detail. One

908
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: of my favorite things to do when I was born

909
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,800
Speaker 1: in class was to imagine, like some kind of monster

910
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,919
Speaker 1: come in and just like throw chairs and tables around,

911
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: not hurt anyone. I wasn't know, an evil kid, but

912
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 1: just like cause chaos. And it was fun to imagine

913
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 1: like a monster crawling on the ceiling and like you know,

914
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 1: tossing chairs around and tearing into the white board and

915
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:15,720
Speaker 1: things like that. Homework, no homework. But hallucination is different.

916
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: And I do want to talk about hallucination just because

917
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 1: I think that there's some misconceptions about what qualifies as

918
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: hallucination and what it is, because it's not it's not

919
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 1: necessarily imagination and overactive imagination. That's not really what a

920
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 1: hallucination is. But it's also not always associated with psychosis.

921
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 1: So UM, hallucinations obviously you are seeing visually something that

922
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 1: isn't there, and you're processing it as visual information, but

923
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: it's actually not existing. UM, it's often associated with schizophrenia,

924
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 1: substance abuse, psychosis, or dementia, but it's not always the

925
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: case that someone who experiences hallucination has experiences any of

926
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 1: those conditions. So people who have hallu sucinations aren't always delusional,

927
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 1: meaning that they understand that they're having hallucinations. So a

928
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 1: good example of this is Charles Bonnet syndrome. Um, this

929
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 1: is uh condition when your eyesight is failing and your brain.

930
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: So the condition isn't that your eyesight is failing. Maybe

931
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 1: your eyesight is failing because of macular generation just from

932
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 1: normal aging, but your brain is filling in the missing

933
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 1: information with visual hallucinations. UM. So people with Charles's Bonnet

934
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 1: syndrome are often aware that these hallucinations aren't real. But

935
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: they can be as simple as just sort of floating

936
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: shapes and patterns to being as complex as a person

937
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 1: standing there or like a landscape. Uh. And probably it

938
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 1: depends on like how um detailed people's visual imaginations are

939
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: and how that that might tie into Child's Bonnet syndrome.

940
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 1: That just sounds honestly very frustrating. Yeah, I mean people

941
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 1: who have it's not always a frightening experience, although it

942
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 1: can be very disorienting when you first start to experience it.

943
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 1: It's I think that one of the treatment plans for

944
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 1: it is being able to understand, like just having that

945
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: meta awareness of like what's happening, that these are hallucinations

946
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 1: that you're not you know, quote unquote crazy. Um, you

947
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 1: know not to say that people who have um mental

948
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 1: illness that causes the hallucinations. I still don't. I wouldn't

949
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 1: call that quote unquote crazy, but um, but it's not.

950
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: It's that you are basically your brain is like, okay,

951
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 1: usually like I would be able to see this whole scene,

952
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 1: but there's a big chunk missing, so I'm going to

953
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: add in what is there? What should be there? And

954
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: we actually do this all the time, Like and you

955
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 1: have a blind spot right now that you don't see

956
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 1: as being a blind spot because your brain is filling

957
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 1: in all that information and it's like, no, there's probably

958
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 1: more wall going this way, so you see it. That

959
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 1: wall isn't there. Technically speaking, that's hallucination, but it's you

960
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 1: know already, you already told me that you're not high,

961
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,959
Speaker 1: so you have no excuses. No, it's just now it's

962
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 1: I don't know that that was just kind of a

963
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,479
Speaker 1: trip in itself. You're right, I'm not looking at a wall,

964
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 1: but there is a wall behind. Oh my gosh, getting

965
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: high on knowledge, high on light can animals hallucinate. Do

966
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 1: you think scientists would give rats and monkeys cocaine to

967
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 1: find out? Do you think these studies would have happened

968
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 1: in the seventies, Well, if you answered yes to all

969
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 1: these questions, congratulations. In the nineties seventies, a number of

970
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 1: studies examined cocaine and amphetamine use in humans, rats, and monkeys.

971
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 1: Measuring hallucinations and humans is more straightforward than in animals

972
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 1: because the people taking the drugs, either in laboratory settings

973
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 1: or on their own, are able to report their own hallucinations.

974
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: One of the more common ones is that of bugs

975
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 1: or parasites on your skin, and those suffering these hallucinations

976
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,920
Speaker 1: can even scratch wounds or scars into their own skin.

977
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 1: When rats and monkeys were given doses of amphetamines and

978
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 1: cocaine over the course of several days, though they can't

979
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 1: self report having hallucinations, they showed behavioral signs. They engaged

980
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: in increased grooming behavior, apparently trying to rid themselves of

981
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 1: imaginary parasites or trying to shake them off. I guess

982
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 1: the real lesson to be learned here is don't deal

983
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:40,440
Speaker 1: drugs to rats anyways. When we return, we're going to

984
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 1: explore how real life can be more incredible than what

985
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 1: your imagination can come up with. For those who have

986
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 1: highly vivid visual imaginations are highly conceptual imaginations. The interesting

987
01:01:57,880 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 1: thing about the human mind is that we can eat

988
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 1: they're visualized or conceptualized things that don't exist in reality.

989
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 1: For instance, if I told you to imagine a giraffe

990
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 1: with a beacon wings, you could do it. Or if

991
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 1: I told you to imagine a turtle the size of

992
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:16,360
Speaker 1: a car, it's a piece of cake. Now here's the

993
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 1: fun part. Both of these things actually exist, well existed.

994
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 1: The cats a quotalist north Ropy, was a giant pterodactyl

995
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:27,479
Speaker 1: like pterosaur the size of a giraffe who could fly.

996
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 1: It's extinct now, as is the giant turtle the stupendomized Geographicus,

997
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 1: who was the size of a car, as evidenced by

998
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 1: its huge fossilized shell recently found in Venezuela's Rumaco region.

999
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 1: So any kind of absurd imaginary animal you concoct, I

1000
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 1: may have a real example for you. So okay, I

1001
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 1: don't know if this game is gonna work or not,

1002
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 1: but try to imagine a ridiculous animal and let me

1003
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:01,640
Speaker 1: see if I can think of a real and that's similar, man,

1004
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 1: a ridiculous animal. Okay your no, those aren't real no,

1005
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 1: um okay, so put on the spot. Sorry, we can

1006
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:21,960
Speaker 1: You know I like this game. Um, I would say

1007
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 1: body of a hippo okay, but with a head like

1008
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 1: a cow. Okay, it just sounds like a cow at

1009
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:39,520
Speaker 1: this point, but with feathers, with feathers, okay. Let me

1010
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 1: think this is probably going to be a dinosaur of

1011
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 1: some kind because they did have feathers and they have

1012
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 1: really interesting heads. So I'm going to say I don't

1013
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 1: know dinosaurs that well, but let me try to think

1014
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 1: of this guy. Quick answer my mother in law. No,

1015
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 1: she's lovely, but she doesn't listen to podcast. Sort. See,

1016
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:12,479
Speaker 1: when you were talking about the draft with a beak,

1017
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 1: I was thinking of like a squid speak on a

1018
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:19,480
Speaker 1: draft that would be that's far out there. Like that

1019
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:23,680
Speaker 1: kind of imagination thought process I kind of associate with

1020
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: Monty Python and that kind of art. Just almost obscene, obscure,

1021
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 1: but very Actually, you know what, the answer to this

1022
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 1: is extremely easy. I just realized, But probably what you're

1023
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 1: thinking of is a triceratops because they probably had feathers.

1024
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:47,160
Speaker 1: They were big and thick like a hippo. And they

1025
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 1: have a head that's kind of like a cow because

1026
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 1: they've got horns like a steer and their herbivores, and

1027
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 1: they've got sort of a cow like head with an

1028
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 1: added sort of squidbeak like things. Yeah, oh, sure made

1029
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 1: made that a little bit more creative, quick, kim, be

1030
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:10,600
Speaker 1: creative a cow? Well what if I told you that

1031
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:14,880
Speaker 1: there is you have? You? You can imagine a manta ray? Right?

1032
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 1: Oh yeah? What about a pink one, like an albino one. Nope,

1033
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 1: like a bright hot Lisa Frank pink manneray, that would

1034
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 1: be sick. But it's hard to think of an animal

1035
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 1: that's bright pink in my mind. Well then why don't

1036
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:36,200
Speaker 1: I just show you this is a real, real guy.

1037
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:42,840
Speaker 1: So here's the bright pink manta ray. Now why is that? Like?

1038
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 1: Are they venomous? Nope? Nope. And in fact, most Manta

1039
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 1: rays are not pink like that. In fact, I would

1040
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:54,960
Speaker 1: say nine of manna rays are not going to be

1041
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 1: that color of bright few ship pink. But this Manna

1042
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:02,760
Speaker 1: ray is real. It's not a photoshop. Just so happens

1043
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:07,320
Speaker 1: that this individual man ray has a genetic condition that

1044
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 1: makes it bright pink. So this guy's name is Inspector Clusseau.

1045
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 1: The mantaray, the reef manta ray, which is named after

1046
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 1: the detective in the Pink Panther movies. Uh. It was

1047
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 1: found off the coast of Australia and it's actually been

1048
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:29,200
Speaker 1: observed and photographed numerous times and it is completely naturally pink.

1049
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 1: There's no dyes, no pollution or anything causing this. Uh.

1050
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 1: It's thought to be caused by a genetic condition called

1051
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 1: ari is um wait nope ere ere thrism. So that's

1052
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:46,720
Speaker 1: similar to being albino where you lack pigment, or melanistic

1053
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:50,600
Speaker 1: where you have darker pigment. So like the melanistic squirrels

1054
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 1: that live in northern California and on the East Coast

1055
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 1: have that those black coats or an albino crow will

1056
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:02,680
Speaker 1: be have white feathers. But this this uh, this reef

1057
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 1: manta ray has um a rithrism which causes that pink

1058
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 1: pigment to be more prevalent. Even though he's so brightly

1059
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:15,800
Speaker 1: unnaturally pink, biologists aren't too worried about his survival chances.

1060
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:20,440
Speaker 1: Reef manta raise are huge adult reef manta raise can

1061
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:24,400
Speaker 1: grow from nine to eighteen feet wide and way up

1062
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 1: to a ton. Yeah, so he's a big pink boy.

1063
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 1: I mean it's like that episode of The Simpsons where

1064
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 1: where Homewer wears the pink shirt to work and he's

1065
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 1: where everyone will make fun of him, but instead everyone's

1066
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 1: super into it. Also, like if he gets made fun of,

1067
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 1: I mean, like he's so big, like he can just

1068
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:45,360
Speaker 1: like slappy with his big old flappy body exactly. I

1069
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:48,960
Speaker 1: was just thinking like, either he owns the crap out

1070
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 1: of that, like he's I'm pink, excuse me, or he

1071
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 1: just like abhors the color and just blends into the

1072
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 1: natural environment, you know, possible. I'm going to hope that

1073
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:05,200
Speaker 1: he owns it, honestly. Same here and personally, I like

1074
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:09,480
Speaker 1: a guy in a pink shirt, yes, you know, confidence, confidence,

1075
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 1: you know. I think pink is a great color. It's

1076
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 1: actually funny because back in the olden times, like in

1077
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:19,719
Speaker 1: the seventeen hundreds, pink was considered to be a boy's

1078
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:23,120
Speaker 1: color and blue as a girl's color with like children,

1079
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 1: so like a boy would wear pink because that was

1080
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:28,599
Speaker 1: considered to be sort of a lighter version of baby

1081
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 1: version of red and riders the color of moon because

1082
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 1: it's mammally and bloodshed and and blue is like blue

1083
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:37,479
Speaker 1: is the color of virgin mary. So of course we

1084
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 1: wanted on our baby girls. That's not weird at all, um,

1085
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:46,840
Speaker 1: so just switched that. Everybody whoever wants to wear pink

1086
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 1: wear pink. I think it's awesome, including Manta Raise. So

1087
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:53,320
Speaker 1: I do kind of want to talk about Mantareis a

1088
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:58,040
Speaker 1: little bit. They are gentle giants who feed on zooplankton um.

1089
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 1: They look super alien. Uh so they almost I mean

1090
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:05,519
Speaker 1: I feel like they don't even register as fish, although

1091
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 1: they are fish, but they don't look like a normal fish,

1092
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 1: so they kind of registers like a different type of animal,

1093
01:09:12,320 --> 01:09:16,120
Speaker 1: like almost like a jellyfish or something that wouldn't have

1094
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 1: a brain. But they do have brains, and in fact

1095
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 1: they are complex with developed social intelligence. Actually they're the

1096
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:28,559
Speaker 1: reef Manta Ray's cousin, the giant Mantarey has the biggest

1097
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:31,840
Speaker 1: brain of all fish. Now that doesn't mean they're the smartest.

1098
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 1: Like we've talked about on the show before, brain sides

1099
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:38,519
Speaker 1: doesn't correlate absolutely to intelligence, but they do have a

1100
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 1: brain and it's a big en so reef Manta's recently

1101
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:45,840
Speaker 1: have been discovered to form close friendships and bonds with

1102
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:49,200
Speaker 1: each other. Females will often hang out in clicks and

1103
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:52,000
Speaker 1: just like hanging out. Oh my god, I was just thinking,

1104
01:09:52,080 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 1: like mean girls Wednesdays, we wear pink girl, I am pink. Trump.

1105
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:03,679
Speaker 1: Stop trying to make help happen. It's not going to happen.

1106
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:07,800
Speaker 1: There are other clicks that consist of females, males, and juveniles.

1107
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:11,960
Speaker 1: The idea is that females often congregate together because like,

1108
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:14,080
Speaker 1: when you have a big group of females, they can

1109
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:17,040
Speaker 1: like if they're not in the mood for like receiving

1110
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:20,840
Speaker 1: mating rituals from males, then like they basically intimidate the

1111
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 1: males from approaching them, just like the buddy system at

1112
01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:27,720
Speaker 1: bars works or at nightclubs, where it's like you want

1113
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:30,479
Speaker 1: to like kind of intimidate the creep boids. You hang

1114
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:33,360
Speaker 1: out with a big group of girls. Dude in the

1115
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 1: paint has been staring at me for next I'd be

1116
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:41,680
Speaker 1: into it. I don't know. Just yeah, no, just settle lives. Yeah.

1117
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:46,360
Speaker 1: So they also seem to remember companions and hang out

1118
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:49,640
Speaker 1: with them. They're not at the same level of dolphins,

1119
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:53,080
Speaker 1: who can remember their companions for years. In fact, some

1120
01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 1: dolphins have been found to have friendships that last their

1121
01:10:56,160 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 1: entire lifetime, but the manta rays can at least aim

1122
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:03,200
Speaker 1: to hang out with certain individuals over the course of

1123
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:06,680
Speaker 1: a few weeks to months. So there are social butterflies.

1124
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:09,559
Speaker 1: But they are social butterflies, so they'll move on from

1125
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 1: you eventually, all right, I'm not as popular as They

1126
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 1: can also communicate through brightening the white patches on their

1127
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:22,400
Speaker 1: back when interacting with each other, and it's not quite

1128
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:26,040
Speaker 1: understood what this means. It could just be like excitement,

1129
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:30,639
Speaker 1: like a dog wagging its tail, uh, blushing maybe blushing? Yeah,

1130
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:34,840
Speaker 1: maybe Yeah. They look so incredibly alien. They look like

1131
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:38,200
Speaker 1: a spaceship, so it's hard to imagine them having like

1132
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 1: a personality, but they do. Yeah, like saying, put a

1133
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:47,800
Speaker 1: face on this animal. Where there's several places that all

1134
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:51,280
Speaker 1: look wrong, Well, the face if if you really want

1135
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:53,760
Speaker 1: to know, like, its eyes are kind of here, and

1136
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:56,439
Speaker 1: then it's usually got a little mouth here. And sometimes

1137
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:59,200
Speaker 1: when I when a ray, well if you can see

1138
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:01,599
Speaker 1: its belly especial like baby rays, they have a cute

1139
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:05,800
Speaker 1: little little face down there. Actually what looks like it's

1140
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: eyeballs are not are not eyeballs down there, but they are. Yeah,

1141
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:13,920
Speaker 1: it makes it look like it's a little smiley faxed right. Yeah,

1142
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:17,240
Speaker 1: So I want to play that game again of like

1143
01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:20,280
Speaker 1: you imagine an animal and I try to match it

1144
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:22,519
Speaker 1: with an animal of my own, but this time, think

1145
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 1: of just the craziest insect you can think of. I

1146
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:29,639
Speaker 1: can do that. They're kind of scary to me, so

1147
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 1: it's easier to be more um detailed, I guess, like

1148
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 1: fear does drive detail. Yeah, what I don't like, just

1149
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:42,840
Speaker 1: times it by ten. So uh, I think of a

1150
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 1: bug that has fifteen ish legs, not like a centipede

1151
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 1: or a millipede, but that and then eyes on the

1152
01:12:52,479 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 1: bottom of those legs, plus having hair, and then like

1153
01:12:58,479 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 1: the war shacked test where it's face should be. You

1154
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 1: know what, I think the closest thing I can think

1155
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:10,400
Speaker 1: of is not necessarily an insect, but an arthur pod

1156
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:16,679
Speaker 1: and that would be a lobster with but a lobster

1157
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:21,639
Speaker 1: that has a uh sort of a colouration abnormality where

1158
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:24,519
Speaker 1: it's actually they're called calco lobsters. Let me show you

1159
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:27,439
Speaker 1: a picture of it. Now. Admittedly, it's eyeballs aren't all

1160
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:29,320
Speaker 1: on the end of its legs, but they do have

1161
01:13:29,439 --> 01:13:35,160
Speaker 1: like the eyes talks. Uh So, here's a here's a calico. Okay,

1162
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:40,040
Speaker 1: it kind of works, and that does work. You need

1163
01:13:40,080 --> 01:13:43,559
Speaker 1: to get that blue lobster. Hook it up with the

1164
01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:48,799
Speaker 1: pink ray and then we've got to find like bright orange.

1165
01:13:49,160 --> 01:13:53,640
Speaker 1: Well that's Nemo Nemo, the pink Man array and the

1166
01:13:53,680 --> 01:14:00,160
Speaker 1: blue lobster. Pixar ed ed tell it. There is a

1167
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:04,160
Speaker 1: a bug that is called the troll haired mystery bug,

1168
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:07,440
Speaker 1: which is a real thing, although it doesn't necessarily describe

1169
01:14:07,439 --> 01:14:10,720
Speaker 1: a real species. Okay, let me explain. So this is

1170
01:14:10,760 --> 01:14:13,280
Speaker 1: a bug that looks like a party horn or an

1171
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 1: alien with like a rainbow iridescent makeup brush or like

1172
01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:22,200
Speaker 1: or like fiber optic cable sticking out of its but

1173
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:28,160
Speaker 1: let me just show you sounds extra. Oh, it's like

1174
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:32,920
Speaker 1: someone went to a rave and vomited. I think, like

1175
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:35,479
Speaker 1: having all those glow sticks because it does look like

1176
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:38,559
Speaker 1: the fiber optics kind of thing. But yeah, it looks

1177
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:41,639
Speaker 1: like fiber optic cable glow sticks coming out of its butt.

1178
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:45,519
Speaker 1: Um so the butt part, yeah it is. It's the

1179
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:51,000
Speaker 1: rear aptomen it's not the anus, but it is the

1180
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:55,559
Speaker 1: butt area. So this is a photographed by Tron Larson

1181
01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:59,640
Speaker 1: which is depicting what could potentially be a new species

1182
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:03,800
Speaker 1: of plant hopper insect. This was found in Surinam, but

1183
01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:07,240
Speaker 1: this could also be the juvenile form of an already

1184
01:15:07,280 --> 01:15:10,000
Speaker 1: documented species. We just don't know. There's so many dang

1185
01:15:10,120 --> 01:15:14,320
Speaker 1: insects species out there. Sometimes, yeah, sometimes you find when

1186
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:16,200
Speaker 1: that looks like a new species, but then it's just

1187
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:18,920
Speaker 1: like a juvenile or in a weird phase of its

1188
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:24,240
Speaker 1: molting um. But the plant hoppers in general are really interesting.

1189
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:28,280
Speaker 1: So the nymph forms of these plant hoppers actually have

1190
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:32,599
Speaker 1: these biological gears in their legs that allow that allow

1191
01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:35,719
Speaker 1: their legs to basically snap in a really powerful spring

1192
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:40,120
Speaker 1: loaded jump. That oh scary bugs. I don't think they're

1193
01:15:40,120 --> 01:15:42,680
Speaker 1: too scary because they're very small. A lot of them

1194
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:46,679
Speaker 1: actually look like leaves. I know I had some of these,

1195
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:48,960
Speaker 1: I think in San Diego. They kind of looked a

1196
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:51,479
Speaker 1: little bit leaf shaped and if you'd hold one and

1197
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:53,360
Speaker 1: like it is this teeny tiny bug and then like

1198
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:55,160
Speaker 1: you could only hold it for a little while before

1199
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:57,720
Speaker 1: it like basically just vanished because it was jumping and

1200
01:15:57,880 --> 01:15:59,960
Speaker 1: it jumped so hard you could feel like a little

1201
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:03,080
Speaker 1: at a pressure even though they were so tiny. Crazy. Yeah,

1202
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:08,800
Speaker 1: But to explain the the butt confetti. Um, many species

1203
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:13,400
Speaker 1: of plant hoppers have abdominal filaments, which are these broomlike

1204
01:16:13,439 --> 01:16:17,599
Speaker 1: hairs that are actually made of keto ester wax, which

1205
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:24,679
Speaker 1: they produce by converting plant juices that they eat. Sounds

1206
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:29,040
Speaker 1: like me a taco bell. You just it's just like this,

1207
01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:32,200
Speaker 1: like rainbow. So like if you ate like taco bell

1208
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:36,360
Speaker 1: and then immediately had one of those unicorn latte's or

1209
01:16:36,400 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 1: what is it like the unicorn frappe from Starbucks? Yeah,

1210
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:47,120
Speaker 1: some from Chino. Bright paint and sparkles. Yeah. Yeah. Horrorful, horror, horrorful,

1211
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 1: awful flying, Yeah, horrorful and awful flying. I don't hate

1212
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:57,919
Speaker 1: myself that much. Um. But the this plume of waxy

1213
01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:01,920
Speaker 1: hairs that do look like an troll doll head protects

1214
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:06,160
Speaker 1: them from predators who don't want a mouthful of hairy

1215
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:11,080
Speaker 1: ass wax and parasitoids, which are parasites that try to

1216
01:17:11,439 --> 01:17:15,719
Speaker 1: get inside your body. Um, but they can't navigate around

1217
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:20,439
Speaker 1: all that hairy wax and get inside the the plant

1218
01:17:20,479 --> 01:17:23,400
Speaker 1: hopper and a lot of different species of plant hopper

1219
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:27,639
Speaker 1: do this and it's like the shape that they're they're weird.

1220
01:17:27,760 --> 01:17:31,320
Speaker 1: Butt wax takes can be variable. So let me show

1221
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:33,519
Speaker 1: you if you now, I think this is awesome looking,

1222
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:37,040
Speaker 1: you may find it a little bit weird. Okay, Like

1223
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:43,320
Speaker 1: that's that seems a bit more traditional traditional as would

1224
01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:48,360
Speaker 1: you like to go with new age ass wax or traditional? Um? Yeah,

1225
01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:51,240
Speaker 1: this is like it. They look sort of like it

1226
01:17:51,240 --> 01:17:54,200
Speaker 1: looks like a bug, but then it's all screwed up

1227
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:57,640
Speaker 1: in the back. Yeah, like a bug that partially exploded

1228
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:01,880
Speaker 1: into what's that like like that phone, like cocking foam

1229
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:07,000
Speaker 1: or something. Yeah. And then here's another one. This one

1230
01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:10,200
Speaker 1: just more has a broom, but it looks like it's

1231
01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:13,120
Speaker 1: in pain. It looks like someone pushed it in. Someone

1232
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:15,720
Speaker 1: shoved a broom up. It's but that was a date night,

1233
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:23,280
Speaker 1: like no safety word was very embarrassing. Trip to the

1234
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:27,439
Speaker 1: emergency room. Man, not needed. Here's another one with a

1235
01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:31,320
Speaker 1: sort of brushy brushy butt ah. This one more looks

1236
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:33,240
Speaker 1: like a paint brush but to me, but like a

1237
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:35,680
Speaker 1: paint brush that you haven't been taken care of. I

1238
01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:39,120
Speaker 1: guess it's Yeah. That one almost kind of looks like

1239
01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:42,880
Speaker 1: a shrimp. I don't. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah,

1240
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:45,520
Speaker 1: it's kind of shrimp shaped, yeah, but with a very

1241
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:49,920
Speaker 1: fluffy But I think I have one more. Yeah, here's one.

1242
01:18:50,240 --> 01:18:52,920
Speaker 1: This looks like an adult because it's got wings, and

1243
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:55,080
Speaker 1: then it just has these butt fronds that don't they

1244
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:59,720
Speaker 1: almost look like bird feathers. They do like or kind

1245
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:05,559
Speaker 1: of twigs because it has the pieces coming out. Yeah,

1246
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:08,720
Speaker 1: ye are better like plant roots coming out of it.

1247
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:13,000
Speaker 1: Oh that's awesome and not horrifying at all, not at all.

1248
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:17,599
Speaker 1: Definitely all include pictures of all these these graphs there, sorry,

1249
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:20,680
Speaker 1: all of these plant hoppers in the description. But if

1250
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:25,040
Speaker 1: you want to google it, if you, I think if

1251
01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 1: you just google Harry plant hopper, that should be safe. Yeah,

1252
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:34,719
Speaker 1: I think safe search on for sure. Definitely room stick

1253
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:37,559
Speaker 1: up the butt is one thing don't do. Don't don't

1254
01:19:37,560 --> 01:19:47,080
Speaker 1: do a Google of that. Please. Well, thank you so

1255
01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:50,320
Speaker 1: much for joining me. You got anything to plug? You

1256
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:52,240
Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit about your comics and

1257
01:19:52,280 --> 01:19:56,719
Speaker 1: where people can find them? Sure? Um? Oh wow, totally

1258
01:19:56,760 --> 01:20:02,080
Speaker 1: mind blank Instagram, Twitter plantation. Yea, I can conceptualize that

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01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:07,080
Speaker 1: I have accounting. Um, the red dot h D underscore

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01:20:07,160 --> 01:20:11,720
Speaker 1: underscore red dot Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, Red dot comics. I'm

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01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:18,200
Speaker 1: on Reddit, browsing, lurking, getting down boats, I'm around. So yeah,

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01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:21,040
Speaker 1: this was fun. Yeah, thank you so much for joining me.

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01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:23,520
Speaker 1: This is a this is a fun one in exploring

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01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:29,880
Speaker 1: the imagination. Lend you looked visibly frightened that I was

1265
01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:33,800
Speaker 1: about to sing. I don't sing, I don't talk well,

1266
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:38,400
Speaker 1: and yet here I am. It's I'm evolving backwards, I guess.

1267
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:44,160
Speaker 1: So you can find us where can't I'm drawing a

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01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:48,240
Speaker 1: blank to Creature feet Pod on Twitter, Creature feature Pod

1269
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:51,880
Speaker 1: on Instagram. Wait no, I did that backwards. Let's try

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01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:55,479
Speaker 1: this again. Creature Feature Pod on Instagram, Creature feet Pod

1271
01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:58,519
Speaker 1: on Twitter. That's f A T F E T. That's

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01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:01,840
Speaker 1: something very different. On the internet. You can find us

1273
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:04,679
Speaker 1: on the i heeart website. Just search for Creature Feature

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01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:09,519
Speaker 1: and you can find me at Katie Golden. And as always,

1275
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:12,400
Speaker 1: I am pro bird rights, where I am fighting for

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01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:15,719
Speaker 1: the rites of birds to take over as the dominant

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01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:23,439
Speaker 1: species of the planet. Yes, yes, so yeah. If you're

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01:21:23,520 --> 01:21:28,120
Speaker 1: enjoying the show, please leave a rating, subscribe, download, leave

1279
01:21:28,160 --> 01:21:31,200
Speaker 1: a review. All those things. It actually really really helps

1280
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:35,080
Speaker 1: me out, gets us, gets us up in that algorithm,

1281
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:38,679
Speaker 1: so please, thank you so much for listening, and I'll

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01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:42,200
Speaker 1: see you next Wednesday. Thanks to the Space Classics for

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01:21:42,240 --> 01:21:45,840
Speaker 1: their super imaginative song. X Aluminum Creature Future is a

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01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:48,880
Speaker 1: production of I heart Radio. To listen to more podcasts

1285
01:21:48,880 --> 01:21:50,880
Speaker 1: like the one you just heard, visit i heart radio

1286
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:53,479
Speaker 1: dot com, the iHeart Radio app, or wherever you get

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01:21:53,520 --> 01:21:54,439
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.