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Speaker 1: We talk a lot about homelessness on the Armstrong and

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Speaker 1: Getty shown. Maybe we got an answer here. It's Armstrong

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Speaker 1: and Getty extra large because four hours, simply enough, this

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Speaker 1: is Armstrong and Getty extra large. Anthony Brown is a

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Speaker 1: former drug addict and drug dealer who is homeless for

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Speaker 1: twenty three years, incarcerated a bunch of times, got sober,

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Speaker 1: turned his life around, became an author, speaker, business owner,

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Speaker 1: college professor, counselor, registered nurse, and he says he knows

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Speaker 1: what needs to be done to get people off the streets,

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Speaker 1: which is an answer we're always looking for. We live

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Speaker 1: in California where there's a lot of homeless and it's

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Speaker 1: growing all across the country. Let's get to the answer. Anthony, welcome,

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Speaker 1: How are you, sir? I'm well, thank you excellent. It's

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Speaker 1: we're really glad you're spending a few minutes with us

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Speaker 1: because we are about solutions. You know, we certainly have

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Speaker 1: our beliefs. But if we're wrong about him, uh, we

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Speaker 1: stand ready to be corrected because the situation California, really

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Speaker 1: all over America can't continue. So why don't I hit

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Speaker 1: you with this? Jack, having given a brief version of

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Speaker 1: your back story, and I'm sure we could talk for

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Speaker 1: an hour about it easily. But if someone had, for instance,

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Speaker 1: gotten you an apartment, gotten new housing in the midst

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Speaker 1: of the drug abuse and the rest of it, would

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Speaker 1: that have turned your life around? Is that the answer? Um?

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Speaker 1: Just housing alone? Now, that wouldnt I would have probably

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Speaker 1: recreated the environment that I came from, exactly where I was. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So what did turn your story around? What did it take? Well? First,

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Speaker 1: I had to realize that I had a problem. That

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Speaker 1: was the first thing. Because the way I was living

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Speaker 1: it became my norm. So I didn't think I had

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Speaker 1: a problem. Even though I've been incarcerated several times and

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Speaker 1: I've been homeless for a long time. I didn't think

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Speaker 1: anything was wrong with that. So I had to become

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Speaker 1: aware of that issue first. Then from there got no

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Speaker 1: go ahead, finish your story okay, yeah? And then from

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Speaker 1: there I was brought into an environment, got sober, and

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Speaker 1: then started living in the environment that I was brought

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Speaker 1: into as I continue to stay sober. So when you

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Speaker 1: were on the street twenty three years homeless is a

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Speaker 1: long time. I imagine you ran into a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: Is there a um uh, a single quality or or

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Speaker 1: type of person or can you paint the homeless situation

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Speaker 1: with a broad brush at all? Or is everybody's situation different? Um?

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Speaker 1: My situation. I come from domestic violence and abused childhood.

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Speaker 1: So I I left when I was fourteen, and I

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Speaker 1: stopped a matt Is when I was thirty seven, So

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Speaker 1: that was my twenty three years. And I know, as

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Speaker 1: I got educated, I discovered that I had a lot

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Speaker 1: of repressed childhood issues that wasn't dealt with. That my

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Speaker 1: coping skills was drug abused, and I didn't have any

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Speaker 1: living skills without selling, and that led to incarceration and

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Speaker 1: all of that. And once I am in that environment,

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Speaker 1: I just grow and thrive. It's in a homeless environment. Interesting,

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Speaker 1: So I think what what Jack who's driving at is

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Speaker 1: is a lot of homeless advocates claim that all homeless

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Speaker 1: people just got hit with one more medical building they

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Speaker 1: could handle, or housing prices are are just high and

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Speaker 1: that's why people are homeless. Aren't there like separate groups?

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Speaker 1: For instance, the people who stay in shelters, Are they

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Speaker 1: different than the people in the tent camps? Yeah? I

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Speaker 1: think I'm there. There's different levels of homelessness. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if we're gonna categorize, I mean there's people who UM

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Speaker 1: are CouchSurfing so to speak. There's people that are living

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Speaker 1: in hotel rooms. You know, there's different levels, and as

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Speaker 1: you experience one more traumatic event or one more loss,

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Speaker 1: and you go one more level low, and so shelters

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Speaker 1: UM either people are on their way up or trying

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Speaker 1: to get up, or they're on their way down. Because

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Speaker 1: once you hit the streets, you pretty much have just

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Speaker 1: given up on UM. Any you want to change, but

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Speaker 1: you give up that UM that drive to make it happen.

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Speaker 1: How many of people you run into on the streets

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Speaker 1: are alcoholics or drug addicts? Quite a few, actually, UM,

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Speaker 1: I would say probably, yeah, maybe that's pretty high. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And would you agree that? I mean, the mere presence

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Speaker 1: of drug rehabilitation programs is not going to get somebody sober.

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Speaker 1: They have to really really want to be sober. Yes,

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Speaker 1: do you have to? In my case? And I remember

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Speaker 1: right the option the drugs. After a long period of

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Speaker 1: time doing drugs, you're not really getting high, you're just

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Speaker 1: doing them. It's just second nature. And basically I I

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Speaker 1: used them to escape UM and after that didn't happen anymore.

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Speaker 1: I just used it because that was just the thing

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Speaker 1: to do at the moment when. Um were you ever

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Speaker 1: a beggar? A beggar? Yeah? Panhandled? Yeah? Um, I did

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Speaker 1: whatever it took. I mean I I stole stuff, I

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Speaker 1: sold drugs, I asked for money. Um what whatever, whatever

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Speaker 1: it took for me to get whatever it is I

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Speaker 1: had to get at the moment. Yeah. Well, so what

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Speaker 1: did you usually do with the money you or anybody

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Speaker 1: else that was panhandling? Where'd the money go? My money

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Speaker 1: usually went towards getting drunks. Yeah, that's the assumption a

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Speaker 1: lot of us have. That's why I don't give money

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Speaker 1: to beggars generally, So, Anthony, the various governments, whether cities, counties,

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Speaker 1: or the state of California, UM, for instance, at are

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Speaker 1: talking about spending billions and billions of dollars to quote unquote,

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Speaker 1: you know, get people off the streets, help the homeless.

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Speaker 1: If you were in charge of, UM, finding a solution

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Speaker 1: to the growing homeless problem in California, for instance, where

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Speaker 1: would you start? I would start, We'll take in one

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Speaker 1: of these institutions that leaves close. Because I thought about this, UM,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of hospitals or prisons or um old

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Speaker 1: developmental centers that the state has shut down, and I

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Speaker 1: would take that and sort of recreate, for lack of

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Speaker 1: a better term, a homeless village. I would allow people

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Speaker 1: to stay there. I would teach them vocational skills, whether

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Speaker 1: it's cutting the grants around and facility um, culinary skills,

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Speaker 1: whether you're working in the kitchen. I would give them

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Speaker 1: some sort of vocation in their environment. And I would

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Speaker 1: even allow them to create some sort of small city

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Speaker 1: council so that they can have some ownership to their

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Speaker 1: environment and help promote their their software, staying in self worth.

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Speaker 1: That would be my solution. It seems pretty obvious us

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Speaker 1: to us that the places that have the most money

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Speaker 1: being spent on the homeless situation have the most homeless.

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Speaker 1: How do you avoid that catch twenty two? Well, we

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Speaker 1: we tend to um They say the definition of insanity

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Speaker 1: is doing the same thing over and over and expect

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Speaker 1: of different results. And we seemed to keep trying the

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Speaker 1: same methods that hasn't worked, but somehow we sold that

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Speaker 1: they're gonna work eventually. We need we knew we need

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Speaker 1: new thinking, and that's where I think the funding should go.

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Speaker 1: So did you did you stay where you grew up

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Speaker 1: or where you started your time being homeless, or did

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Speaker 1: you go to places that had more benefits and say

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Speaker 1: gentler laws about camping out? Well, when I was homeless,

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Speaker 1: I started when I was fourteen, and I'm from another state, Ohio,

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Speaker 1: And when I ran away from home, I was living

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Speaker 1: in the banding houses and I worked for carnival and

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Speaker 1: things of that nature. And then when I turned eighteen,

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Speaker 1: my friend said, well, let's just go to California. And

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Speaker 1: I thought, well, California was better than what I was

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Speaker 1: experiencing in Ohio. So I came out here and became homeless,

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Speaker 1: and we're in California. Um. I started out in um

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Speaker 1: Lynnwood and then I migrated down Orange County to Costa Mesa.

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Speaker 1: Why did you make that move? Because in in Lynnwood, UM,

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Speaker 1: I had got a job working at a fast food

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Speaker 1: place and I was still eat money and the heat

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Speaker 1: was on, so I just get transferred to a different

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Speaker 1: place to still money. Oh wow, Okay, so you personally

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Speaker 1: didn't like go to the softest, cushiest place for homeless people. No,

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Speaker 1: I just went wherever the wind blew me. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna kind of ask about that, Like, how

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Speaker 1: much thought dude, when you're sitting around with other homeless people,

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Speaker 1: do you talk much about how we're going to get

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Speaker 1: out of this situation? Or is it more of a

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Speaker 1: just like getting through today? You don't think ahead. There's

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Speaker 1: there's moments when you're sitting around and you're sad and

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Speaker 1: you know you want something different, but you don't know

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Speaker 1: how to get something different. It's it's one of those situations,

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Speaker 1: one of those situations where you know you know something

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Speaker 1: isn't right, but you don't know exactly what's wrong. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you were a mayor of a city, I'll go ahead.

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Speaker 1: If you have more thoughts on that, go ahead. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: got got that's that's I was just gonna say, if

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Speaker 1: you were the mayor of a city, would you perfor

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Speaker 1: would you permit tent encampments in your city? Uh? Tents

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Speaker 1: not necessarily because they're not really sanitary and they're temporary.

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Speaker 1: I would. I would try to find a location um

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Speaker 1: like said, one of these um old prisons or something

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Speaker 1: and refurbish that and turn that into a small environment. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you can understand people who have say they're their

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Speaker 1: kid's favorite park is now full of tents with people

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Speaker 1: doing drugs and pooping and leaving needles or or whatever.

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Speaker 1: You understand the frustration that people here have rather seeing

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Speaker 1: their neighborhood go that route. I understand the frustration. But

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Speaker 1: just saying that, I think people lose track is all

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Speaker 1: of those people in those tents are are somebody's others, brothers, daughters,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's somebody's child. I mean, they're just like me.

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Speaker 1: And yes, it can get frustrating seeing what you see,

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Speaker 1: but what are we gonna do about it? And we

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Speaker 1: could talk about it, we can get mad about it,

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Speaker 1: but what are we actually willing to do about it?

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Speaker 1: What do you think? So one thing that's different about

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Speaker 1: you versus homeless people that haven't escaped that what what

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Speaker 1: what's different about you? Or what did you do different?

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. What I did different was I just got

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Speaker 1: to the point where I was tired and I think

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Speaker 1: I was given I've been given many opportunities. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people ask me if I wanted some help, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to help at that time, and I

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Speaker 1: just hit a bottom in which I was willing to

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Speaker 1: do anything. And it was a struggle. It was it

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Speaker 1: was a struggle but people around me understood that it

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Speaker 1: is a struggle, and it was more supportive of nurturing

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Speaker 1: as I grew and tried out on my own feet

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Speaker 1: and then just flourished. Okay, I don't I don't mean

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Speaker 1: to be at all insensitive in this. I just we

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Speaker 1: we around here have the philosophy that people are responsible

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Speaker 1: for their own lives, and that if you enable people

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Speaker 1: to be drug addicts, they will be drug addicts for

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Speaker 1: a longer time. And if you have a set of

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Speaker 1: policies that enable drug addiction, you will get more drug

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Speaker 1: drug addicts in your town. Is that not right? Is

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Speaker 1: the sympathetic, soft approach really the way to go? Do

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Speaker 1: you think? Well? Drug addiction is, in my opinion, a disease,

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Speaker 1: and I think we can it's it's easy to get

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Speaker 1: somebody sober. I mean there streatment centers all over the place.

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Speaker 1: The same thing with mental illness. The thing is is

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Speaker 1: what happens? Want somebody to decide they want treatment? Is

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Speaker 1: it available? Um? As far as one fanatic always fanatic,

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Speaker 1: I I myself I consider myself an alcohol canatic. I

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Speaker 1: will always be an alcoholic canatic, and I cannot safely

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Speaker 1: ingest anything. But I had to learn that, and I've

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Speaker 1: done it from trial and error throughout my whole history.

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Speaker 1: I could, I could never start and stop. And so

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Speaker 1: to be sympathetic, yes, to be compassionate, yes, to be firm,

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Speaker 1: absolutely yeah, but once once you tell us hey stop, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what's the alternative? Right? So let me hit you with this.

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Speaker 1: If if there were absolutely treatment options available, but the

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Speaker 1: cops ran you out of where you were like sleeping

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Speaker 1: in a tent every night, to the point that it

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Speaker 1: was just no way to live, do you think more

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Speaker 1: people would go for treatment sooner? I think? Um. One

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Speaker 1: of my turning points was a police officer that continued

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Speaker 1: to arrest me because I didn't know that cops worked

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Speaker 1: a certain beat and I just went got to start

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Speaker 1: in place, and so I continue to get arrested by

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Speaker 1: the same officer over and over and over again. And

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Speaker 1: then one day he just asked me, is like, don't

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Speaker 1: you think you want to do something different? And at

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Speaker 1: that point I said yes, And then he had connections

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Speaker 1: to treatment sent there. That scholarship makes that no money

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Speaker 1: and the rest in its history. But as far as

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Speaker 1: UM constantly having your property thrown away and all of that,

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Speaker 1: if there's no alternative, then you're just gonna return back

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Speaker 1: to what you know. Yeah. Interesting, Hey Anthony, we really

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Speaker 1: appreciate the time and enjoy the chat. Like we said,

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Speaker 1: we're just trying to dig into the question and deal

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Speaker 1: with reality as opposed to you know, slogans and throwing

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Speaker 1: money around, right, And I think that's what we need.

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Speaker 1: We need reality. We need to be able to look

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Speaker 1: at this because I think about this all the time

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Speaker 1: because I've been there and I've done that. I'm doing

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Speaker 1: my best to try to help other people. We need

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Speaker 1: to have a collect of a group of individuals rather

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Speaker 1: as sociologists to see what's going on in that environment,

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Speaker 1: behavioral list to see how we can change the way

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Speaker 1: we active think. Whether it's a psychologist, psychiatrist, um addiction counselors.

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Speaker 1: We need the whole group, not just one person said

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Speaker 1: my way is better. Do this because homelessness is not

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Speaker 1: a one size fit all solution. Right, all right, good

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Speaker 1: to talk to you, Thanks Anthony. So one of the

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Speaker 1: problems where the rubber meets the road I think a

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Speaker 1: lot is you know it worked for Anthony because for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason, and this is the magic or miracle or

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Speaker 1: whatever of people who do get sober. Nobody knows what

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Speaker 1: causes some people to do that, but most people don't.

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Speaker 1: And the success rate of these places is very, very low.

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Speaker 1: And I don't, I don't. I just dot how you

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Speaker 1: deal with the reality of that. Yeah, and I will

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Speaker 1: I will continue to stay partly because I know me,

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Speaker 1: and I know what the devil on the one shoulder

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Speaker 1: is saying, and I know what the angel on the

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Speaker 1: other shoulder is saying and has been saying to me

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Speaker 1: my entire life. I continue to believe that that cop

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Speaker 1: saved Anthony's life because he made it impossible to be

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Speaker 1: comfortable as a junkie. And and you know, it's always

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Speaker 1: a combination of push and pull factors I think that

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Speaker 1: get people to make the right decision and and go

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Speaker 1: the right route in life, whether you're talking about you know,

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Speaker 1: just motivation in general, or or substances or whatever excess

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Speaker 1: you're involved in. Um, it's it's never just pull factors.

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Speaker 1: You realize this sucks, and I don't want it anymore,

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Speaker 1: and so I I just I will continue to maintain.

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Speaker 1: If you make it effortless for people to be junkies,

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Speaker 1: you will get more junkies, and they will be junkies

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Speaker 1: for a longer time, and then practically unanswerable question of

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Speaker 1: how many shots do you give some at a rehab

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Speaker 1: and continue to let them hang out on your streets? Well,

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Speaker 1: I liked his his idea of having some sort of

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Speaker 1: centers somewhere, but you know, and and none other than

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Speaker 1: London breed the way left Mayor of San Francisco said, Look,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have all sorts of places and all sorts

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Speaker 1: of programs, and one place you're not gonna be is

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Speaker 1: on the street in a tent. Can't have it anymore,

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Speaker 1: and good for her. Extra large