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Speaker 1: All right, I hope you enjoyed part one of that

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Speaker 1: conversation that was very much focused on the military, we

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Speaker 1: delved into some larger issues. My second interview Herman Lopez.

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Speaker 1: He's actually a New York Times reporter that is now

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Speaker 1: part of the editorial board and actually at the end

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Speaker 1: of our conversation about policing in America, and he's been

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Speaker 1: on the criminal justice beat for decade in various news organizations.

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Speaker 1: So I think you'll really appreciate the expertise that he provides,

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Speaker 1: and frankly, a very sober and dispassionate explanation of you know,

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Speaker 1: what are the explanations as to why, as to why

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Speaker 1: we have so many unsolved murders. But I do want

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Speaker 1: to make one quick point about DC. There's an interesting

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Speaker 1: little various generational divides and the question is DC safer

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Speaker 1: today than ever.

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Speaker 2: Before or not?

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Speaker 1: Well, some of this, by the way, depends on how

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Speaker 1: old you are. So for instance, I moved here. I

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Speaker 1: moved to d C in nineteen ninety. That's when I

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Speaker 1: went to school. GW moved here in the June of

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety, and in fact, my first week was when

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Speaker 1: there was the whole Marion Barry, you know, the the

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Speaker 1: at the crack cocaine bust, and that was just consumed

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Speaker 1: the city's politics and was consuming and it was sort

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Speaker 1: of in the nineties in general, it was a low

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Speaker 1: point for d C as a community as a and

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Speaker 1: it was sort of really So, I look at d

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Speaker 1: C today and while if you compare d c's you know,

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Speaker 1: the security of d C today to say, ten years ago,

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Speaker 1: you feel as if things are not as good as

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Speaker 1: they were. If you're someone like me and you compared

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Speaker 1: to where d C was and to the nineties, you think,

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Speaker 1: what do you, guys, this is you don't understand more

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Speaker 1: parts of DC today are are are great places to

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Speaker 1: hang out and all of those things than ever before.

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Speaker 1: So if you're wondering in some ways why you're hearing

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Speaker 1: different descriptions of d C, do take note of how

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Speaker 1: old the person is that's telling you this. I think

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Speaker 1: if you're somebody who's who's been in DC for the

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Speaker 1: last fifteen or twenty years, you have won. You know,

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Speaker 1: It's all depends on where you where your baseline was, right,

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Speaker 1: and if that was your baseline, it feels as if

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Speaker 1: DC's a little less secure than it was fifteen or

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Speaker 1: twenty years ago. If you're someone like me and remembered

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Speaker 1: when the waterfront was not the best place to be

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Speaker 1: that where the Nationals Park is, and when you had

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Speaker 1: to go get your car inspected, you were you literally,

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Speaker 1: you know, you did so as in as sunny of

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Speaker 1: a day as possible. There wasn't It wasn't just that neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: There were lots of neighborhoods that felt that way.

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Speaker 2: And so.

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Speaker 1: The trajectory of DC in my lifetime has been safer

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Speaker 1: and better and more of the city more open to everybody,

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Speaker 1: more more, you know, just feels like a better place

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Speaker 1: to live. But so I think if you're wondering why

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Speaker 1: there's sometimes a disconnect, do take note, you know, are

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Speaker 1: those people like me who've been in d C since

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Speaker 1: the late eighties, early nineties, or is it people that

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Speaker 1: came to d C, say right after nine to eleven. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: just thought i'd make that little notation there. So with that,

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Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Herman Lopez. And

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Speaker 1: joining me now from The New York Times is Herman Lopez.

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Speaker 1: When I booked him, he was a reporter on the

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Speaker 1: reporter side and now he has joined the opinion section,

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Speaker 1: and we'll get to in a minute, but he was

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Speaker 1: the author of an article a few about a month

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Speaker 1: ago on some new data that was released about how

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Speaker 1: nearly half of all murders in America go unsolved. The

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Speaker 1: point is that essentially, if you murder someone in America,

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Speaker 1: you got a fifty to fifty chance to get away

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Speaker 1: with it. And that is not quite fifty to fifty.

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Speaker 1: But we're going to get into the reasons for this.

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Speaker 1: But I can't think of a more timely conversation given

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Speaker 1: suddenly the President is currently interested in crime that he

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Speaker 1: in the visuals that he can see, when if this

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Speaker 1: were the focus, that the real issue of criminal justice,

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Speaker 1: of the issue of crime in America arguably.

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Speaker 2: Might be this.

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Speaker 1: This is a nationwide problem that isn't something that can

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Speaker 1: be solved one jurisdiction at a time, and yet it's

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Speaker 1: something I thought this was one of those headlines and boy,

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Speaker 1: this should get people's attention, and it seemed to land

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Speaker 1: with crickets. So what happens when that happens, You do

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Speaker 1: your best to try to surface it. So I've invited

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Speaker 1: Herman onto the podcast because I really want to explore

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Speaker 1: this issue more, and because if we really want to

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Speaker 1: solve feel safe in America, perhaps, you know, we might

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Speaker 1: want to start with solving the most egregious crimes to

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Speaker 1: take place against humanity, like murder. Herman, Welcome to the podcast. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thanks for having me. So let's start with the piece.

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Speaker 1: You've been covering criminal justice issues for over a decade,

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Speaker 1: so this is obviously on your beat. I just found

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Speaker 1: this framing to be really clarifying and I real because

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Speaker 1: here's this one story that once you start to peel

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Speaker 1: the onion, you realize, oh, we don't have enough cops. Oh,

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Speaker 1: we don't have enough these resources. Oh we don't have

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Speaker 1: enough these resources. And so when you think about people's

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Speaker 1: complaints about law and order in general, that if you

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Speaker 1: actually began with this focus, perhaps everything else sort of

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Speaker 1: falls into place if you can crack this part of

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Speaker 1: the code. But it is, but you're the expert. This

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Speaker 1: is your beat, So tell me how you went about

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Speaker 1: this and what kind of why you framed it the

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Speaker 1: way you decided to frame it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So I've been fascinated by clearance rates. That's what

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Speaker 2: the statistic is called. Essentially, how many murders are cleared

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Speaker 2: means how many resultant in arrest. I've been fascinated by

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Speaker 2: this for years because the US has historically been very

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Speaker 2: behind rich countries like where we're talking about, like Japan

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Speaker 2: or Germany or Australia, those kinds of examples, like they

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Speaker 2: have clearance rates in the nineties like ninety plus percent.

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Speaker 2: Japan famously solves almost all of its murders. They have

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Speaker 2: fewer of them, so it's easier for them to do that,

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Speaker 2: but they have fewer of them. So the US historically

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Speaker 2: is usually around fifty to sixty percent, especially after COVID.

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Speaker 2: The most recent data suggests it's bumped up a little too,

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Speaker 2: around sixty percent. But I should say that even that's

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Speaker 2: a little misleading because that includes murders that happened in

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Speaker 2: previous years that were solved in the year where the

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Speaker 2: data was reported. So if you actually subtract those pre murders,

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Speaker 2: the clearance rate is more around forty percent depending on

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Speaker 2: the city, which is even obviously even more than half

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Speaker 2: of people who kill someone in that year will get

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Speaker 2: away with it, at least for that year. And for me,

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Speaker 2: this is just this is just arming that there's a

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Speaker 2: thing in criminal justices somewhere. There are three ways to

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Speaker 2: deter someone. One is the severity of the punishment. So

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Speaker 2: you know, if somebody thinks they're going to face long

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Speaker 2: prison punishment, they might decide, I'm not going to do

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Speaker 2: that crime. If they think they're going to get away

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Speaker 2: with it, then that's the other thing is a certainty

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Speaker 2: of punishment is important. So if somebody thinks they're going

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Speaker 2: to get away with it, then you know they might think,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do this crime anyway. I mean, a

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Speaker 2: long prison punishment penalty isn't going to matter if you

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Speaker 2: think you can get away with the crime. And the

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Speaker 2: third thing is the speed of punishment, because people not

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Speaker 2: only have to be certain, but it has to come fast.

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Speaker 2: Like I murdered someone and a few days later I

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Speaker 2: was arrested. That sends the signals to the rest of

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Speaker 2: the community that like, look, the police are taking this

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Speaker 2: very sore and you're gonna get caught exactly, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: how does this compare to thirty years ago?

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Speaker 1: Has this always been the case? Is this historically a

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Speaker 1: consistent pattern here of essentially unresolved murder cases.

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Speaker 2: Now it's clearance rates in general have gone down over

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Speaker 2: the past few decades. I should say that there's some

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Speaker 2: discussion among criminal justice experts about how much of this

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Speaker 2: was like, you know, police were just locking up anyone

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Speaker 2: they could pick up, Like you think about the level

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Speaker 2: of evidence that they gather now you know, DNA evidence,

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Speaker 2: the forensic stuff, like they and also generally they had

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Speaker 2: to clear a higher bar because like, courts no longer

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Speaker 2: accept just police picking up anyone off the street and

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Speaker 2: claiming that they're a murderer, and so prosecutors will send

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Speaker 2: back those cases and police know that, so they'll be

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Speaker 2: more careful with their arrest. So in general we've seen

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Speaker 2: a decline in clearance rates, but it's not clear how

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Speaker 2: much of that is that, Like you know, to some

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Speaker 2: it might be that police have gotten better at their

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Speaker 2: jobs because they're not being as abusive with criminal slice.

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Speaker 2: But to some degree, it probably is that police aren't

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Speaker 2: taking this as seriously as they once used to. It

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Speaker 2: used to be a big part of policing in the

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Speaker 2: US that they focused on clearance rates, and over time

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Speaker 2: we've transitioned to this model of more proactive policing, so

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Speaker 2: we try to stop crime before it happens. And as

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Speaker 2: we've done that, we've put less emphasis on actually solving

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Speaker 2: crimes once they do happen, and yet we have more

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Speaker 2: data than ever right DNA.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, between I look at two things, you know, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, let me frame it another way.

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Speaker 1: The perception of safety in America I think has gotten

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Speaker 1: better in my lifetime, not worse. And I think the

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Speaker 1: number one reason is this surveillance, meaning every you know,

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Speaker 1: the likelihood that you're going to be on camera doing

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Speaker 1: the crime, whether it's violent crime or petty crime, but

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Speaker 1: the idea that the likelihood the will be evidence that

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Speaker 1: you did it is never been higher. The ability to

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Speaker 1: use DNA evidence to find a particle that will connect

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Speaker 1: a suspect to the crime and make it possible to

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Speaker 1: get a conviction.

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Speaker 2: We've never had more tools at our disposal.

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Speaker 1: And yet the counter point is here, we have all

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Speaker 1: of this, all of these extra tools that the police

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Speaker 1: didn't have.

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Speaker 2: So obviously it does.

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Speaker 1: Mean, oh my god, how many people got convicted for

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Speaker 1: crimes that they probably didn't commit. So that's one thing

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Speaker 1: you worry about when you look at the twentieth century

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Speaker 1: versus of twenty first. But why is it that these

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Speaker 1: new tools haven't been able to actually increase the likelihood

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Speaker 1: that police can solve these crimes.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a few things going on. In

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Speaker 2: some cases, police just haven't really caught up with a

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Speaker 2: modern era and are not using cares as much as

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Speaker 2: they could be. There's also like civil libertarians really take

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Speaker 2: issue with the idea of surveillance, and they have tried

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Speaker 2: to legally restrain police, and like, look, they have some

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Speaker 2: legitimate complaints. I'm not saying that like the police should

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Speaker 2: have access to like every new technology and abuse it accordingly,

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Speaker 2: but like there is some pushback there, and police have

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Speaker 2: to deal with that. They ultimately answer to you know,

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Speaker 2: city councils and mayors and governors and all that. But

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Speaker 2: another issue is frankly just just funding police. That there

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Speaker 2: are actually if you walk around a modern city. I

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Speaker 2: live in Cincinnati, So when I walk around, there are

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Speaker 2: these like polls of that old cameras and actually audio

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Speaker 2: devices at the top, and they can hear gunshots, they

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Speaker 2: record people on the street. People can actually see these

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Speaker 2: probably never modern city, and they become more popular recently,

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Speaker 2: but police haven't adopted them as widely as you would think.

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Speaker 2: So you know, when you think about like how people

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Speaker 2: are getting away with murder in this modern surveillance state.

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Speaker 2: That's part of it is that they can't necessarily access

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Speaker 2: all the cameras, and they really might not have cameras

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Speaker 2: around to begin with, depending on what you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: All right, but what about on the DNA side of things? Right?

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Speaker 1: In some ways, there's never been more ways to find

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Speaker 1: evidence that. Frankly, it was evidence that existed before, but

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Speaker 1: we didn't have the technology to.

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Speaker 2: Identify it.

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Speaker 1: Right now we have the technology to identify DNA evidence.

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Speaker 1: Is this another case of lack of adoption or is

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Speaker 1: this it's just not as easy as it as TV

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Speaker 1: makes it look.

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Speaker 2: I would say that it's not as easy as TV

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Speaker 2: makes it look. And the biggest thing you have to

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Speaker 2: consider is the proliferation of guns in the US. You

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Speaker 2: are just much less likely to leave behind the evidence

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Speaker 2: if you're if you're shooting someone, then if you're stabbing them.

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Speaker 2: So you think about, you know, if you think about

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Speaker 2: like a CSI episode, it's often like a husband killing

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Speaker 2: his wife or something along those lines, like people who

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Speaker 2: intimately know each other, and the episode's about uncovering that.

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Speaker 2: Those are usually crimes where you know they're they're up close.

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Speaker 2: There's physical evidence everywhere in a lot of these shootings,

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Speaker 2: I mean, people are just driving by a house and

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Speaker 2: gunning people down, and nobody even sees the face of

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Speaker 2: the shooter. Like they might still know who the shooter

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Speaker 2: was or have their suspicions, but they might not have

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Speaker 2: actually seen them. So so if you think about it

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Speaker 2: in that situation, that that makes it much much harder

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Speaker 2: to salt these crimes. Is it easy to classify the

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Speaker 2: unsolved cases? Is there a pattern here?

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Speaker 1: It's it's more of it's it's the murders that are

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Speaker 1: harder to are for our murders that take place where

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Speaker 1: the where it is a gunman and where the gunman

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Speaker 1: is you know, ten feet away or more like, is

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Speaker 1: there is it that can you can you divvy it

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Speaker 1: up that concrete?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so there are, Like I would say, there are layers. One,

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Speaker 2: if it's a shooter, then distance obviously matters as well,

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Speaker 2: and then gang related because if the crime gang related

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Speaker 2: crimes are more likely to be not necessarily anonymous, but

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Speaker 2: the victim and shooter might not know each other, at

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Speaker 2: least the victim's family might not know the shooter. That's

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Speaker 2: more likely to happen also gangs are just better at

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Speaker 2: covering up crimes since they have more experience with it,

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Speaker 2: so they might know how to avoid getting caught to

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Speaker 2: begin with. And so those I think those three factors

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Speaker 2: really play a big role. And the US does generally

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Speaker 2: have more shootings and more gang crime than other countries,

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Speaker 2: so that would explain some of the discrepancy when you

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Speaker 2: look at Japan, which has very few guns, very little

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Speaker 2: gang activity that results in murder, so that I think

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Speaker 2: that's one of the biggest things driving it is just

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Speaker 2: you know, the US has a lot of guns and

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Speaker 2: gangs are using them. So okay, that's another part of this.

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Speaker 1: If how many of these unst murders are likely gang related,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to.

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Speaker 2: Say because it depends on the city by city, and

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Speaker 2: the statistics frankly aren't that great. But in some cities

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Speaker 2: it's the vast majority of shootings are are gang related.

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Speaker 2: Well maybe not some cities, but at least in some neighborhoods,

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Speaker 2: the vast majority of shootings, I should say, our game related.

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Speaker 2: So when you're looking at that level of things, there

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Speaker 2: can be like, you know, your entire community might be

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Speaker 2: riddled by crime that's unsolved, And that's another thing that's

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Speaker 2: striking I should say about these clearance rate statistics is like,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're talking about national statistics, right, but when

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Speaker 2: you start looking at the city and neighborhood level, there

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Speaker 2: are some places where clearance rates can drop to like

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Speaker 2: single digits like nine percent and lower because there's so

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Speaker 2: few attention going to the issue.

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Speaker 1: Well, part it's that or is there fear like eyewitnesses

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Speaker 1: don't want to cooperate.

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Speaker 2: There's that aspect as well. That's absolutely part of it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's also just a vicious cycle. Right, If

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Speaker 2: you know that people are getting away with murder, you

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Speaker 2: are less likely to testify as a witness because you

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Speaker 2: have no confidence that the police can actually protect you

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Speaker 2: if you come forward, speak up, testifying court. Right, Like,

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Speaker 2: the criminal justice system fundamentally relies on our belief that

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Speaker 2: it is protecting us our trust, and if you don't

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Speaker 2: have that then pretty it starts fraying. And I think

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Speaker 2: that's what we see when we look at these clearance

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Speaker 2: rate numbers, especially in minority and poor neighborhoods. They have

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Speaker 2: lots of reasons, not just the clear low clearance rates

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Speaker 2: to not trust beliefs, and that leads to all sorts

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Speaker 2: of problems and solving murders.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think about I grew up in Miami

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Speaker 1: in the eighties, seventies and eighties, and in the eighties

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Speaker 1: we were the murder capital of the world. And I

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Speaker 1: will tell you I never fell unsafe, right because it

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Speaker 1: was there was a belief and I think over time

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Speaker 1: we learned this is that ninety percent of these murders

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Speaker 1: were both the victim and the shooter.

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Speaker 2: It was all part of the same world. Right.

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Speaker 1: It felt like as if, yes, this was happening in Miami,

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Speaker 1: but this was disputes between cartels. These days, we you know,

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Speaker 1: the difference between gang and a cartel is just the name, right,

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Speaker 1: Arguably it's the same thing. And you know, and there

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Speaker 1: was this feeling that, well, if you're not involved in

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Speaker 1: the various activities, you're going to be safe.

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Speaker 2: Is that still the case?

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Speaker 1: Is that how you would tell people that you know

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Speaker 1: they because you know it's you know, because.

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Speaker 2: I've always felt I felt that way when I was

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Speaker 2: here in d C. Too.

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Speaker 1: Is that I lived in DC when it was the

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Speaker 1: murder capital of the world in the early nineties, and

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Speaker 1: yet I never felt all right, I know, right, Well,

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Speaker 1: I remember I had had my grandfather's wife when I

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Speaker 1: went and decided to go to school in DC. This

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Speaker 1: is in nineteen eighty nine. She goes like, it's so

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Speaker 1: unsafe there, and I went and Ella, we live in Miami,

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Speaker 1: like we just like they made an entire television there's

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Speaker 1: a huge television show called Miami.

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Speaker 2: Vice that that is, you know. And yet I said,

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Speaker 2: do you feel unsafe? You know?

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Speaker 1: And it was sort of like having this conversation and

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Speaker 1: so and that's this sort of you know, and how concentrated.

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Speaker 1: I guess it goes back to it's always felt as

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Speaker 1: if these things are concentrated in these communities. Is that

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Speaker 1: still the case?

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Speaker 2: Yes, that is definitely the case that crime is just

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Speaker 2: super concentrated in general. I mean, some cities had programs

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Speaker 2: where they literally focus on like just dozens or even

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Speaker 2: hundreds of people within the city and demonstrably brought crime

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Speaker 2: down that There's a famous example in Boston called the

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Speaker 2: Boston Miracle, where they famously focus on just like these

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Speaker 2: slivers of offenders, like people they knew were doing certain crimes,

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Speaker 2: and crime just plummeted by fifty percent in the city

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Speaker 2: throughout the course of this program and it's that can

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Speaker 2: hide it from other people. But I think the reverse

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Speaker 2: of that is in those communities where there are all

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Speaker 2: these people committing crimes, it feels much much worse than

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Speaker 2: even the crime statistics might suggest.

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Speaker 1: So why, I mean, this seems like the obvious thing,

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Speaker 1: which is you surge law enforcement resources to your most

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Speaker 1: vulnerable neighborhoods. Why if it worked in Boston, why isn't

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Speaker 1: this replicated around the country.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of you know, political interests that go

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Speaker 2: into policing. I would say, so, you know, one thing

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Speaker 2: is actually solving crimes or deterring crimes, right, Like, we

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Speaker 2: have good evidence that if police are just in a block,

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Speaker 2: people are less likely to commit crime. Who's going to

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Speaker 2: be stupid enough to shoot someone else in front of

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Speaker 2: a police officer, right, It's called a scarecrow effect in criminology.

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Speaker 2: And so yes, you can just you can surge resources there.

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Speaker 2: But the other thing is a perception of crime, and

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Speaker 2: I think this is just as important. There are plenty

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Speaker 2: of neighborhoods. I see this in cincinn where there are

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Speaker 2: like police patrolling all these nice businesses because the business

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Speaker 2: owners in the area want to feel safe. And of

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Speaker 2: course they're entitled to feel safe, but the reality is

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Speaker 2: crime is probably not happening in those places where there

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Speaker 2: are lots of wealthier businesses, right like just in nature,

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Speaker 2: that's not how crime works. So I think police have

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Speaker 2: to deal with that conflict, and that limits their resources.

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Speaker 2: And you know, you often see this with like surges

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Speaker 2: of police in cities where they just start targeting what

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Speaker 2: are frankly the wrong neighborhoods. They're like the idea of

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Speaker 2: surging police officers in a block or neighborhood or whatever

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Speaker 2: that does a strong empirical evidence and it does have

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Speaker 2: some effect no matter where you are, but it could

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Speaker 2: have a bigger impact in the neighborhoods that frankly just

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Speaker 2: have less political capitals, so they can't really ask for

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Speaker 2: police help as easily as you know, wealthier businesses could.

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Speaker 1: So are we in a situation where we know what

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Speaker 1: would work, We just don't we don't have the political will,

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Speaker 1: or we're still trying to figure out best practices.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I would say it's a little bit of

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Speaker 2: both in the end, but I would mostly lean on

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Speaker 2: the first thing, which is we know what to do

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Speaker 2: and we just have not really used the resources for it.

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Speaker 2: You see this kind of thing all the time in politics.

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Speaker 2: So in his first term, for example, President Trump actually

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Speaker 2: his budgets repeatedly suggested cutting police funding. And I think

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Speaker 2: one thing that's interesting about that is not necessarily that

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Speaker 2: it led to police cuts, because Congress by and farded

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Speaker 2: but for the most are did not pass those budgets.

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Speaker 2: But there was no conversation about whether they should increase

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Speaker 2: funding in certain neighborhoods, right, Like, the conversation was like,

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Speaker 2: should we do Trump's budget or not? And the answer

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Speaker 2: was not okay, so like should we? There was never

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Speaker 2: really a conversation about this. And obviously you have the

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Speaker 2: defund the police movement, which which had a big effect

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Speaker 2: as well, And so I think in the end, the

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Speaker 2: conversation has been really focused on, like, you know, how

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Speaker 2: limited can we keep police resources? Like what's the least

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Speaker 2: we can spend on this? But I think that runs

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Speaker 2: into a bunch of problems. Number one, you can't solve

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Speaker 2: crimes easily detectives. You know, you want smart people on

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Speaker 2: those jobs, and smart people are going to demand higher

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Speaker 2: salaries and too, Like even if you're just worried about

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Speaker 2: the police accountability issue, that we've heard so much of

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Speaker 2: with Black Lives Matter and all that. Like, one way

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Speaker 2: that you make sure police officers are better is by

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Speaker 2: making sure that you know that they have higher education,

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Speaker 2: or go through certain training, or are just smarter better people.

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Speaker 2: And like, smarter better people are generally going to be

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Speaker 2: able to get jobs elsewhere with more competitive pay, So

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Speaker 2: why would they go to a police department? And like it,

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Speaker 2: I think in this way you can really think about, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's a dearth of resources going to these

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Speaker 2: department and a lot of them have dealt with shortfalls

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Speaker 2: in recent years, like staffing shortages where they cannot hire

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Speaker 2: nearly as many cops as they want to hire. Here

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Speaker 2: in Cincinnati, the police apartment is supposed to be staffed

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Speaker 2: at around one thousand, one thousand, one hundred cops. It's

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Speaker 2: missing one hundred to two hundred people in a history

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Speaker 2: in every major METROARREA. Yes, I was about to say,

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Speaker 2: that's the story in every major metro area. And some

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Speaker 2: of that is, you know, it's social, like liberals do

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Speaker 2: not want to become cops anymore because they do not

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Speaker 2: see it as a good profession, right, And some of

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Speaker 2: it is political. Is political in that sense, and then

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Speaker 2: some of it is just financial. They literally can't entice

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Speaker 2: enough cops to come in with proper pay. Well you

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Speaker 2: hear this.

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Speaker 1: You know, some police officers feel like they're not respected anymore,

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Speaker 1: So why bother? Right, you hear that conversation? And right,

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Speaker 1: you just talked about the divide. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think about Joe Biden and Bill Clinton in the

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Speaker 1: mid nineties and one hundred thousand cops the street and

437
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: the surge of that, and how that was universally popular,

438
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 1: and of course then it became a divisive issue inside

439
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party a generation later. Right, And because incarceration

440
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: rates seem to be rise among more vulnerable groups that

441
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: you know, it looks like a lot of profiling was

442
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: taking place. So you know, I guess that this is

443
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,199
Speaker 1: the problem. If you could take politics out of this

444
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: issue and just made it a hey, do you want

445
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: to solve this problem? And here are best practices to

446
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: do it. These are the funding levels we need, this

447
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 1: is the training levels we should have, and these are

448
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: the metrics police departments have to meet. And if you

449
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 1: don't meet it, you lose certain funding. I mean, it

450
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: seems like this isn't you know, like most things in

451
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: our political sphere of debate, the solution isn't that there's

452
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 1: seventeen solutions sitting on a shelf. You just got to

453
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: decide which one is politically viable in the moment, right.

454
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 2: And you know, I think one of the things that

455
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 2: makes it tricky is that the concerns and criticisms are

456
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,239
Speaker 2: legitimate to some degree. Right, A lot of a lot

457
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 2: of bad cops get away with things that they should

458
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 2: not be getting away with, and so it's understandable that

459
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 2: people feel the way they do. I mean, we've all

460
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 2: seen the police shooting videos of the last few years.

461
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: They're horrendous, and like.

462
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, if you're an African American male in this country,

463
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: you do have a lot I understand why you have

464
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: some distress to the cops because you feel singled out,

465
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: you feel profiled.

466
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 2: Well, not only do you feel profiled, but you feel

467
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 2: like they are not protecting you because of the clearance

468
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 2: rates stuff we're talking about, right, Like, I mean, I

469
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 2: think are a majority.

470
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: I was just going to say, do we know as

471
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 1: a majority of unsolved murders people of color?

472
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if it's a majority necessarily, Probably depends

473
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: on the year, but the clearance rates for black black victims,

474
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: like murders where there are black victims are much worse.

475
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 2: So in general, we do know that's the case, and

476
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 2: I think it's useful for people to just put themselves

477
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 2: in the shoes of someone living in that environment where

478
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 2: you know, police harass them for petty nonsense that that

479
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 2: doesn't really do much for for anyone's public safety. There

480
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 2: are murders all the time and shootings all the time.

481
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 2: They literally hear gunshots when they're just going to bed, and.

482
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: Byether, if there are gunshots in my community, there'd be

483
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: outrage and there'd be all sorts of politicians surging around.

484
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: And you sit there and you're like that happens in

485
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 1: the south part of the county. Everybody just says, oh, yeah,

486
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: it's just another night where I hear gunshots, right exactly.

487
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 2: And then on top of that, you know, whoever did

488
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 2: the shooting is probably going to get away with it.

489
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 2: Like I mean, just imagine living in that environment. What's

490
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: that tell you? You think I have there's no one

491
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 2: who can protect me here. I shouldn't. I can't trust

492
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: the police. It's understandable to have that sentiment and I

493
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 2: think that the fact that those criticisms, those complaints are valid,

494
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 2: just makes it much harder to, you know, as a politician,

495
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 2: argue that we should be spending more on police.

496
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: You grounded your story in Louisville, not too far from Cincinnati,

497
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: and in some ways they're very you could I guess

498
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: there's probably some similarities between the two cities. Louisville has

499
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: been a little bit more in the news for its

500
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 1: actions of its police department, and they've had they've had

501
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: some federal oversight and what they've done and haven't done,

502
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: et cetera. Brianna Taylor obviously, the incident, the murder of

503
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: Brianna Taylor being sort of a touchstone there so unpacked

504
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: Louisville's police department. You know, it was sort of your

505
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 1: It was your the example you led with what would

506
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: it take to make that a better police department?

507
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the first thing and they would

508
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: tell you this because because I asked them a lot

509
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: of questions and this is the one that they emphasized

510
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: is they just need to have full staffing. They are

511
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 2: there are The last time I look at the numbers

512
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: they were they were like severely understuffed, like by the

513
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: hundreds of police officers. It's a big city, so you

514
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 2: know that number might sound like big, but that's how few.

515
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: That's how many police officers they need to hire. I

516
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 2: think that's the first thing. That The second thing is

517
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 2: they really do need to rebuild trust with like the community,

518
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: trust that they've lost. I mean, they have losso for

519
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 2: very understandable reasons, like the community is upset for very

520
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 2: legitimate grounds, and now they need to work to show

521
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 2: the community that they're protecting them. That makes it difficult

522
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 2: to to actually get to the job of solving murders right,

523
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 2: Like the community doesn't trust you. You know, solving murders

524
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: requires witnesses, so they need those people. And the third

525
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 2: thing that I heard from a lot of experts is

526
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: just look, they should increase the use of modern technology.

527
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 2: You know, we talked about cameras like that that's a

528
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: big thing, and they've said that they've started to do

529
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,719
Speaker 2: some of that. They told me this much. But at

530
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 2: the end of the day, you know, there are still

531
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,959
Speaker 2: a lot of places where there are blind spots. There

532
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 2: are still a lot of shootings where they will tell

533
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: you they have no physical evidence or surveillance footage or whatever.

534
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 2: So that to me suggests they could be doing more

535
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 2: along those grounds, even if it's not like, you know,

536
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 2: how many people want a camera installed in the middle

537
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: of their street. But like you could try to work

538
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: with a community. People have cameras all over their houses nowadays, right,

539
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 2: So like you could try to work with the community

540
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 2: to like actually know that those things are there, that

541
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: you can access them and so forth. So those are

542
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: three big steps, but I think it would make a

543
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 2: tremendous difference. I would. I will say though, that the

544
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: hiring part of this is probably the most difficult, just

545
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 2: because you know, they simply cannot find enough officers, and

546
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 2: especially enough officers from Louisville in a community that does

547
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: not trust them, right.

548
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: I mean the biggest thing is, you know, you want

549
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: your police force to look like the community you're policing, right,

550
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: And that seems to be a challenge for many of

551
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: these forces, right.

552
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 2: I think you know, in other countries they've done like

553
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 2: reconciliation things like that when when there are the government

554
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 2: messes up and they want to rebuild trust and all that,

555
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: and they basically come forward admit their mistake. They do

556
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 2: these long reports, And I'm not sure how much that

557
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: stuff helps, but I doubt it can hurt. Like, at

558
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 2: this point, many police departments have seriously lost the trust

559
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: of their communities and they just they need to show

560
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: that they care. Hear them. I hear the officers too

561
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: all the time, who are very upset that, like, you know,

562
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 2: they feel underappreciated because many of them are doing good

563
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: job and still they're being lumped in with all these other.

564
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: Criticis welcome to every industry, right, Like in the middle

565
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: of journalism, right, you're like, yes, they're bad actors, but

566
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: like they're in the minority, I swear right, right, I

567
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: mean we talk about this in so many walks of

568
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: life and that the you know, the five percent of

569
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: bad apples end up defining ninety percent of the actors,

570
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: and that that doesn't help anybody, right, But I.

571
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: Think frankly, like if you're an officer, I mean you

572
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 2: should know your your public accountable. Like that's just how

573
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: things work, right, This is a job serving the public,

574
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: and sometimes you're going to hear things that you don't like,

575
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 2: and like it's just somehow police departments have to figure

576
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,719
Speaker 2: out how to build that resilience and I think sometimes

577
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 2: the messaging back and forth, I will say, like from

578
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 2: from critics and from their supporters just does not help.

579
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 2: It seems to escalate the conflict rather than toning it down.

580
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: Well, because the politicians are weaponizing it. They're exploding if

581
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: they're exploiting the anger among cops. We see politicians do that.

582
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: They don't people don't care about cops. Thin blue line, right,

583
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: you know, back to the blue and we don't. And

584
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: then you know, you see it. You see it with

585
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: those who feel as if the cops have been abusive

586
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: and all of that. So you this is a I

587
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: feel like the politicians have made the conversation between the

588
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: actual police and community and the communities themselves harder to

589
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: have because of the political I don't know if we

590
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: call them overtones or undertones in this case, but right, I.

591
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 2: Think that's exactly right framing though, because it is basically

592
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 2: Paul to if you talk to like actual people on

593
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: the ground, they have much more i would say, moderate views,

594
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 2: but the conversation is dominated by extremists. I think a

595
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 2: classic example of this is in around twenty twenty, when

596
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: it was a height of defund the police. If you

597
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 2: went into community meetings with police officers. Very often, what

598
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 2: you would see it was white progressives saying defund the police,

599
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: and then it was black mom saying no, no, no,

600
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: I want my cops on my street. Yeah right, I

601
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: want my son to be protected. Please get these drug

602
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 2: dealers out, et cetera. And like, I think, to me,

603
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: that's really because those those are the stories I heard.

604
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I talked to a bunch of family members

605
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 2: of victims, and they were all black, because they are

606
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: the disproportionate victims of these murders, and all of them

607
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: said the same thing, like, look, I know that cops

608
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: do a lot of wrong things things, but ultimately I

609
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: want them to have my back when something this bad

610
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 2: happens to me, when I lose a family member and

611
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 2: so forth. And I think, you know, I mean, we

612
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: say that's of all sorts of political issues, right, that

613
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 2: the extremist kind of take over the conversation. But I

614
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: just don't think that that is not really representative of

615
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 2: the everyday American, And I think it's important to keep

616
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 2: that in mind.

617
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the puzzle solvers themselves, meaning the actual

618
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: homicide detectives. I would think that to recruit in that

619
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: is actually is that also difficult that specific part of

620
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: the law enforcement community, or is that actually seen as

621
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: sort of a more prestigious, prestigious gig in the world

622
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: of policing.

623
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: I mean, it's certainly seen as more prestigious, But I

624
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 2: guess it depends on some cops. You know, some cops

625
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 2: really revel in the idea of like being a patrol

626
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: officer and their bid and their neighborhood and all that.

627
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 2: But I think generally police departments to treat as like

628
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 2: a higher, prestigious, more position. But the thing is that

629
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: it requires a lot a lot of work, right, Like

630
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: you might be called odd hours because a murder just happened,

631
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: and as we know, murders are much or any really

632
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: any prime is much easier to solve if you're on

633
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 2: the scene fast. So that's one thing. It requires a

634
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 2: lot of training and intellectual work that you might not

635
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 2: do in day to day policing. And it's just and

636
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 2: then on top so once you start stacking those requirements,

637
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 2: I come back to the issue of pay. Right, Like,

638
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: somebody who is really well equipped to be a detective,

639
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 2: you know, they might also choose to do other investigative work.

640
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: They could work for authentk tic, they could be a journalist,

641
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 2: they could do all sorts of things, and those jobs

642
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: generally pay higher than a police detective might make, especially

643
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 2: when we're talking about you know, smaller towns and so forth.

644
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: I mean, is it as simple as police departments if

645
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: you hit a certain funding level, you get bonus money.

646
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: Is that an incentive that's worth pursuing or would that

647
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: be the equivalent of putting bounties out there that might

648
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: actually backfire right where there's an incentive to just find

649
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: to just close the case.

650
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: And you know, yeah, I guess that would worry The

651
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 2: thing I would worry me about something like that is

652
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 2: like it would basically help the winners, you know, you

653
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 2: know what I mean. Like, if you're already hitting a

654
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 2: seventy percent clearance, right, let's say, do you really need

655
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 2: the more funny than somebody's struggling at forty percent? Like

656
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 2: that would be my concern with it. But I mean,

657
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 2: in general, I'm not totally sure how to do it,

658
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 2: but I think we need to figure out a way

659
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 2: to fund, like funnel resources into places that are solving

660
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: or struggling the most with solving murders and dealing with

661
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 2: more murders is the FBI at all?

662
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I don't want to get into the

663
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: current leadership of the FBI because I really fear what

664
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 1: we've done, and politicizing the leadership of the FBI is

665
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: a very dangerous course. But let's let's let's pretend we

666
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: live in this neutral world right now and the FBI

667
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: is sort of the FBI you and I have been

668
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: used to dealing with, which is functionally has tried to

669
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: be a political right up up until this most recent

670
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,720
Speaker 1: set of leaders this most current leadership.

671
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 2: Are they too you know?

672
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 1: I get the sense that we've that in some ways

673
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: the FBI is less and less helpful to local police

674
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 1: because we've now asked the FBI to do so many

675
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: other things, whether it's having to do with terror, counter terrorism, UH,

676
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: domestic intelligence and things like this. But is there a

677
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: better role for the FBI in helping increase the possibility

678
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 1: that we solve more murders?

679
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 2: I mean, police departments can ask for FBI to succumb

680
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 2: in and help them sometimes when they do, but you

681
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 2: are right that to some degree, and all police departments,

682
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 2: including the FBI, have suffered this from the past few

683
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 2: years where we just asked them to do more and

684
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: more and more. So on the FBI level. You know

685
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 2: you mentioned counter terrorism, they also just drug trafficking in general,

686
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 2: and dealing with like all those kinds of.

687
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: Cyber They're dealing with CYBERBRT right in a way that

688
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: I think domestic police forces just I mean, I look

689
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: at it everyone to get to cyber because that's a

690
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,439
Speaker 1: whole separate conversation. But I'm going to assume that neither

691
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: the Cincinnati or Louisville police departments know what they're doing

692
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: on cyber And I don't mean that in any criticism.

693
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: That's just not what they were designed to do.

694
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 2: No, And at the same time, the local and state

695
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 2: police departments are dealing with their own like over right,

696
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 2: they're asked to like response to these mental health care cases,

697
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 2: where what do they do. They're not psychologists, they're not psychiatrists,

698
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: And they have to be on the scene in some

699
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 2: cases because if people are acting violently or might have

700
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 2: guns or whatever it might be. But like they don't

701
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 2: know how to deal with that person, and like you know,

702
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 2: it's in the end. You see a lot of police

703
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,439
Speaker 2: officers say this, like I took this job to become

704
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 2: a police officer, not a social worker, and often the

705
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 2: work can feel like like you're doing social work. But

706
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 2: in terms of the FBI, I think, you know, it

707
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 2: can play positivele. I think one of the biggest things

708
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 2: that can do is just lead by example, Like it

709
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 2: can show like the country what exactly the federal government

710
00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 2: is prioritizing. And I would say not just the FBI,

711
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 2: really all federal law enforcement agencies can play that role.

712
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 2: And you know, we haven't, at least in the last

713
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 2: under this administration, we haven't really had proof of that

714
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: that they're like taking this issue seriously by any means.

715
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 2: And frankly, crime only seems to come up when it's

716
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 2: like politically convenient for the president more than when it

717
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,800
Speaker 2: he's actually taking as seriously as an issue. So I

718
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 2: think that that makes it difficult. Like you know, the

719
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 2: ultimately a lot of policing work, a lot of criminal

720
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 2: justice work happens at the state and local level. The

721
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 2: vast majority of it happens there. But one thing the

722
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 2: federal government can do is like tell you where what

723
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 2: you should be prioritizing. And because to put it charitably,

724
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 2: we're getting mixed messages from the federal government over the

725
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 2: last year. It's really difficult for police departments to do that,

726
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 2: and they're not getting clear messages on what the priorities are.

727
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: Big picture here, let's talk about the issue of the

728
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: crime rate. Is in the news right what to believe,

729
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 1: what not to believe? I sort of look at it.

730
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: I feel like the further away we get from COVID,

731
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: the more obvious it is that, yes, there was a

732
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: spike in COVID in all sorts of crimes, right, violent

733
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 1: ones and nonviolent ones, and now that we're back sort

734
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: of engaging in the society that we had on February first,

735
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, that we're back to sort of typical crime rates.

736
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 2: I hate to put them in.

737
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: Those terms, but essentially, you know, yes, that might be

738
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: a spike here there in a specific incident or a

739
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: specific gang war, things like this, but for the most part,

740
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: what we've experienced in the first two decades of the

741
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: twenty first century is where we are today.

742
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 2: Is that a fair way of putting it. I would

743
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 2: put up optimistic and pessimistic spin on it. The optimistic

744
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 2: spin is it's actually the murder rate this year is

745
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 2: on track to be much lower than it has been

746
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: for at least sixty five years. That's when the FBI

747
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: started tracking national data. So on a national level, the

748
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 2: murder rate has really collapsed, and that's that's great news.

749
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 2: The pessimistic spin on it is that, like the murder rate,

750
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: based on this year's numbers, will probably come at four

751
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: per one hundred thousand. I don't expect anybody to know

752
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 2: off the top of their head what that means. But

753
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 2: if you compare that to like European or like Japan

754
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 2: or Australia, like other countries, wealthy countries, that's not great.

755
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 2: And like that's really the fundamental problem in the US

756
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 2: is that like, even when crime is coming down, it's

757
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: still at a at a at a default baseline much

758
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: higher than it is, particularly murders, than there is in

759
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 2: other places.

760
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 1: Just by curiosity, would you was this that also true

761
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: thirty five and forty years ago, that our baseline was

762
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 1: higher than the baseline of the rest of the western world.

763
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: Oh, especially if you're looking at thirty five years ago.

764
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 2: Pretty much everybody saw like murders rise and fall after

765
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 2: starting around the seventies and eighties.

766
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: But the US, it's pretty clear now that was all

767
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: drug trafficking related, right, the spike it well, you know,

768
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: the cocaine stuff and crack.

769
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 2: I think that's a big part of it. There are

770
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 2: also other theories, like there's honestly like a billion theories

771
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: about it. One is that you know, lead and gasoline

772
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: was making people more aggressive, because we have good evidence

773
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 2: that like lead is warps people's minds, right, and like

774
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 2: leaded gasoline took off around the era preceding that, and

775
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: then we got rid of it. Asked crime started talking

776
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 2: about that.

777
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: I've heard that view too. I get it right the whole,

778
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: you know.

779
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the thing I find persuas about that is

780
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 2: that it would explain of global drop since that was

781
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 2: a global attin. But it's also true, you know, we

782
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: saw drug trafficking obviously take off in the US with crack,

783
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 2: cocaine and so on and so forth. I also think

784
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,479
Speaker 2: there was a lot of social discord at the time.

785
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 2: So you know, you had Watergate, you had the Vietnam War,

786
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:58,760
Speaker 2: you had the Cold War in general.

787
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: In the background, you had civil rights movement, which was

788
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: a civil truths right we were becoming that was I

789
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: always remind people we've only been a multi racial democracy

790
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 1: for about fifty five sixty years r right exactly, And

791
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: what you're describing is the first decade of US as

792
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: a multiracial democracy, and you could argue that maybe that

793
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: also created tension.

794
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is something that's just much harder to measure empirically.

795
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 2: But when you have periods of like you know, the

796
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: social fabric kind of collapsing, and we saw this with COVID,

797
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,359
Speaker 2: it seems like crime just spikes, and like you know, again,

798
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 2: the criminal justice sim relies on trust, so does our

799
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 2: government in general. Right, So when it makes sense intuitively

800
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 2: that if people don't trust the government, they might bring

801
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 2: the laws more.

802
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,959
Speaker 3: Okay, trust is down, and yet crime is down. Yes,

803
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 3: So that is another thing. You pointed to phones earlier.

804
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 3: I think it's an understated aspect of this. And I

805
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 3: wouldn't just say phones, I'd say screens in general are

806
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 3: keeping kids inside, right, Like, that's that's a big thing.

807
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 3: The other thing is in the nineties especially, we did

808
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 3: a lot to improve policing in the US, Like you

809
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 3: talked about Bill Clinton's measures to like flood streets with

810
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 3: police officers.

811
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 2: I was a big thing. But also they learned how

812
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 2: to use like all sorts of new technologies to actually

813
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 2: track crime, see where it's happening on a map, flood

814
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 2: police officers in the area. The New York City Police

815
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 2: Department in particular, is really good at this, and it's

816
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 2: one of the It's well, it's the safest city in

817
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: the country, but even when you compare to like other countries,

818
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: it's it's relatively safe. It's interesting with the NYPD.

819
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: Right, here's here's a law enforcement agency that fifty years

820
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,720
Speaker 1: ago didn't have the best reputation, and now it's considered

821
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: the crown jewel, isn't it.

822
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean obviously they still have problems. Like anytime

823
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 2: you say something like you just said, you're going to

824
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 2: get people saying out, how about this, this, and it's

825
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 2: like there's plenty of this, this and this. Yeah, true,

826
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 2: it's true. Also, it's just a giant city. When you

827
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 2: with a lot of police officers, some of them are

828
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 2: bound to be doing stupid, bad things all the time.

829
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: But yes, it really is. And I think the the

830
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 2: other thing I would add is just like you know

831
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: that even though trust and government didn't improve, the end

832
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 2: of the Cold War really brought this like whole America

833
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 2: and America is good. It's like sense of patriotism that

834
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 2: didn't really exist. And I don't know, I don't have

835
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 2: a study telling you that that's probably but my that

836
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 2: that caused the decline crime, But my hunt is that

837
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: probably helped. I mean, it was just a moment where

838
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: Americans were more united in general because they felt that

839
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 2: they had just won this long, ongoing conflict. Before we go,

840
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 2: tell me about your journey to become.

841
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 1: A criminal justice reporter.

842
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,399
Speaker 2: You know, it's always right. This is literally the the the.

843
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: You always you know, they say the first, the best

844
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 1: first job you should have vice be the you know,

845
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: is to be the beat cop journalist, right to walk

846
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: the streets in here. You've made it. You've made it

847
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 1: a beat for quite some time. How'd you get there?

848
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 2: Well? Often when I started a workplace, I figure out, like,

849
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: what is the niche that's missing. I'm generally I'm a

850
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 2: generalist reporter, so I could really cover anything. I love

851
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 2: learning about new things, all reporting and telling people what

852
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 2: I've learned, And.

853
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: So I tell people about journalism. It's the you get

854
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,800
Speaker 1: to go to grad school every day exactly because you

855
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: don't know that, right?

856
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, Like I'm always thrilled to be I know

857
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 2: a lot of reporters are not like this, but I'm

858
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 2: usually thrilled to be assigned a new topic because I

859
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 2: get to learn about something new.

860
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: So I'm a big fan of the I think one

861
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: of the things we have too much of a journalism is,

862
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: you know, people atrophy and their beats because I've been

863
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: there done. I call it been there, done that disease.

864
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: I worry about it in politics. I think about it

865
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: all the time. Oh that that kind of candidate can

866
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: never win until that candidate wins. Right, that's been there,

867
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: done that disease. And you can get it on any

868
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 1: beat that you're on, which then actually can make you

869
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: miss a story.

870
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 2: Right, And there's a little tangential to the point. But

871
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 2: often going on other beats helps you and your original beat, right,

872
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: like you figure out like if you're covering politics, I

873
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 2: mean covering literally anything else at any point will give

874
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 2: you new insight into politics and how they want it, right, like,

875
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 2: because it's the everything issue. So that's so Anyway, when

876
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 2: I started at City Beat, a local alt weekly here

877
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 2: in Cincinnati, I was always I was just interested in

878
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 2: crime because I thought that, like at City Beat, it

879
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 2: was underserved because I mean I was literally the only

880
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 2: news reporter at city Beat, so like, I just wanted

881
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 2: to cover they did gossip at city Hall.

882
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 1: Right, that was probably the you know, look, I love

883
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: my alt weeklies around the country and a lot of

884
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,399
Speaker 1: times or you might get one investigative piece, right, Right,

885
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: that's all they had the resources for.

886
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, it's just a limited resource problem. So I

887
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 2: always thought like that was an important issue. Then at Vox,

888
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 2: I saw the same thing where I was like, you

889
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 2: know that they had one other criminal distance reporter. When

890
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 2: Vox launched. I was there at the launch and I

891
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I could probably contribute to this, especially

892
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 2: when the Ferguson Missouri protests happened. It was an all

893
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 2: hands on deck effort, and I was like, yes, this

894
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 2: is what I'm interested in, the topping, and I should

895
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 2: cover it. I just kind of went from there. I mean,

896
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 2: but it is striking to me. I have found this

897
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 2: consistently that in national media they often you know, obviously,

898
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 2: in local and state news like outlooks, you have to

899
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 2: cover crime, like it's usually a bigger deal. But at

900
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 2: the national level, I think it gets less attention. I

901
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 2: think it's seen as US prestigious and for me it

902
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: is I don't know, it's the issue that one of

903
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 2: the issues that affects people on their day to day

904
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 2: lives and most so I've always tried to just keep

905
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 2: an eye and find interesting frames to get people's attention,

906
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 2: including by writing headlines like nearly half of murderers get

907
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 2: away with it. So look, I love the fact, by

908
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 2: the way I think the most.

909
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: And this is this is why I feel like The

910
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: Times is thriving in an era where a lot of

911
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: news organizations are not.

912
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 2: I love that you're based in Cincinnati. You're not in

913
00:47:59,280 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 2: New York.

914
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: Can I don't my My sort of my cheap talking

915
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: point these days about about about journalism is we have

916
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: too many reporters in Washington and not enough everywhere else, right,

917
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: you know, and and and not enough in other topics.

918
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 1: And you just sort of have given a pretty good

919
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 1: insight of of you know, for various reasons. Right, the

920
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 1: prestigious speed is the White House beat, you know. And

921
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: I would always say, yeah, the best stories are on

922
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: Capitol Hill, you know. And that's just in the world

923
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: of public policy and politics, right, you know that that

924
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: and frankly, if you really want to understand healthcare policy.

925
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: You're better off going to a rural clinic, uh in

926
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,839
Speaker 1: pick any state in the middle of the country than

927
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: you are covering the Department of Health and Human Services, right,

928
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: So it is sort of one of those you know,

929
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 1: So it is I'm curious, is it a Was it

930
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:50,760
Speaker 1: important to The New York Times that you were based

931
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: not in New York or in the East Coast? Was

932
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 1: that an asset or was that was that at times

933
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: of liability? No?

934
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 2: Actually, the day the Katie Keeksburry, who who heads the

935
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 2: opinion department at the time, she was excited about it.

936
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 2: So I think it's great. I think they like that.

937
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 2: I would say too. I always tell this story because

938
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:14,359
Speaker 2: when I when I actually lived in DC for a while,

939
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 2: when I was working at Box, and I moved to

940
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 2: Cincinnati where where my family is, and that's why I

941
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: moved back, just where you grew up. You grew up

942
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 2: in sentience. Yeah, I moved here from Venezuela when I

943
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 2: was six, and yeah, my family is based here and

944
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,959
Speaker 2: my husband's family is here as well, so so yeah,

945
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 2: but I remember at the time I was I told

946
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 2: my bosses at Box, like, look, we need geographical diversity

947
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 2: and to be frank, I was kind of bsing. I

948
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 2: didn't really know how much it mattered, but once I

949
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 2: moved here it is. It is really crazy. I mean,

950
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 2: just going from DC to here. In d C, people

951
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 2: have an easy time imagining not talking talking to a

952
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 2: Trump voter right like they can. They can go through

953
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 2: their day to day lives literally never conversing with anyone

954
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:58,439
Speaker 2: who supports Trump.

955
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: How about New York, you actually bore, Like I always say,

956
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: DC are more likely to run into somebody, at least

957
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 1: that's for Trump in New York. Good luck ever running

958
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 1: into a Trump support right here. You can't live here

959
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: and socialize here without knowing how to talk to Trump supporters.

960
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 1: And like my in law is, some of my in

961
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 1: laws are Trump supporters.

962
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 2: Like I'm not gonna if I don't want to ruin

963
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: Thanksgiving every time because I might disagree with something Trump did,

964
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 2: like I have to learn how to talk about it

965
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 2: in like.

966
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 1: A nice you know, cordial man, well dispassionate is I

967
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: always say, I've always thought that our problem in mainstream

968
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: media and the national level was our tone sometimes was wrong,

969
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: our facts were correct, right.

970
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 2: Yes, I think there's there's really this. There's a way

971
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 2: you can tell someone that you think they are wrong

972
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 2: without insulting them, and that, I think is what really

973
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 2: you suffer. You lose that a bit when you live

974
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 2: in a place where you are living in a bubble essentially.

975
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think when I moved here, it just,

976
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:55,839
Speaker 2: you know, it helped me see issues in a different light,

977
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 2: like like anything from crime to immigration to whatever it's

978
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of.

979
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: I've always said that the one piece of diversity newsrooms

980
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: never focus on is geographic.

981
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 2: Yes, And I honestly think it's a big deal. Again,

982
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 2: I was basic at first when I want to I

983
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,879
Speaker 2: wanted to move, but now I'm I totally believe it.

984
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 2: It's it's definitely the case. All right, let me get

985
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 2: you out in here. In this Bengals are reds.

986
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,959
Speaker 1: Like what's the what's the what's the obsession in your household?

987
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 2: Definitely the Bengals, if not not. I mean we don't

988
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 2: watch sports much, but I do not like baseball at all.

989
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 2: I can I can watch.

990
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: Wow, you're Venezuelan and you don't like baseball, You're not

991
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: going to be allowed back in.

992
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 2: I am I fem the Dodgers photo behind you and

993
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 2: like I'm sorry to say this, Chuck, but I'm just

994
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 2: not a fan of baseball but Bengals, and I will

995
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 2: also add, you know, Cincinnati soccer team is great. It's

996
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 2: actually one of the best in the country. And I

997
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 2: love soccer so well.

998
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:54,879
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, Cincinnati is you know, I'm

999
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: sorry that they lost the Cincinnati Royals, which goes way

1000
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 1: back when it comes to the NBA. One of the

1001
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: greatest players of all time played for Cincinnati, Oscar Robertson.

1002
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 2: But it's interesting about soccer. I feel like the state.

1003
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 1: Of Ohio and general between Columbus, Crew Beclean Cincinnati that

1004
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: there really is a uh it's it's it's a really

1005
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: fast growing fan base, isn't it.

1006
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't think I'm allowed to say anything nice

1007
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 2: about Columbus and living in Cincinnati. It's a real rivalry.

1008
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 2: It's a real Actually, I think there was a game

1009
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 2: recently people were yelling at each other in the street.

1010
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: I was eating outside, and yeah, it was great. Let

1011
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: me that's the other dumb Cincinnati question. How do you

1012
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 1: what's that chili you're supposed to like? Is it okay

1013
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 1: if I say I.

1014
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 2: Don't love it? Yeah, it's book I think what everyone

1015
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,439
Speaker 2: gets wrong about Skyline Chili, which is amazing, is that

1016
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,400
Speaker 2: it's it's spaghetti sauce. It's not really chili.

1017
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 1: Like, thank you, okay, and I'm good with spaghetti sauce.

1018
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 2: Call it that, right, Yeah, you can also put it

1019
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 2: on on like Chief Coney's right, like that, that's fine.

1020
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 2: But like, it's just that I think that's a big

1021
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 2: thing people wrong. It's a sauce. It's not a true

1022
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 2: chili in any sense.

1023
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 1: Well, look enjoyed Joe Burrowy and not every fan base

1024
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 1: gets to have a quarterback like that. So even if

1025
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 1: you even if you guys don't get get another get

1026
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 1: a super Bowl with them.

1027
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 2: It's a joy to watch him play football. Yeah, hopefully

1028
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 2: it delivers this year. We'll see.

1029
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 1: Are you fired up about being opinion What does that mean?

1030
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 1: How does that change you change your beat?

1031
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 2: Well? Before I had zero opinions, chuck, and now I do.

1032
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 2: But now I think I am fired up about it.

1033
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 2: I'm working. I'm actually a member of the editorial board,

1034
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 2: so we're like, I'm doing a lot of the editorial

1035
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 2: board work right now.

1036
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 1: But yeah, by the way, not a lot of people

1037
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: know what that means.

1038
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 2: Just very quickly. You remember the editorial board.

1039
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 1: What does that? I know what it means, but I

1040
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: think people hear that. Do you write the op edge?

1041
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: Do you write the editorials? What does that mean? Specifically?

1042
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 2: Basically? When when whenever you see the New York Times,

1043
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 2: is the editorial board is telling you something. There's like

1044
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 2: a group of five people. We talk together, and we

1045
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,359
Speaker 2: we decide on like you know, what things we agree

1046
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 2: with and whatnot, including our publisher. He also chimes in,

1047
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 2: I shouldn't say times in he is more of a

1048
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 2: mister Salzburger gets to say what he wants to say.

1049
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 2: He got to say, what's his newspaper?

1050
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 1: Right?

1051
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 2: Yes? And it's so, And then usually one of us

1052
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 2: writes it, so you won't see our byline necessarily on there,

1053
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,319
Speaker 2: but it was. It was written by one of the

1054
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:28,760
Speaker 2: members of the board.

1055
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: Who do you guys vote, Like, if you guys are

1056
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: divided on an issue, it's three to two, say, do

1057
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 1: you note that division in the editorial itself?

1058
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 2: Or do you pick another topic?

1059
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 1: No?

1060
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 2: I think, uh, that's an interesting question. I think we

1061
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 2: would generally. This has not happened during my time at

1062
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 2: the editorial board yet, so I can't tell you that

1063
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 2: this from experience, But I think generally we would try

1064
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,280
Speaker 2: to find some consensus. I mean, I think with basically

1065
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:57,720
Speaker 2: any topic you can, you know, you can find some

1066
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 2: sort of agreement and make the editor about that while

1067
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 2: acknowledging that like people are divided on other aspects of

1068
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 2: the issue.

1069
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: You are a New York Times reporter, and I'm sure

1070
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 1: many at times you would say, hey, the editorial page

1071
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 1: is the editorial page.

1072
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 2: I'm I'm reporting. How mindful are you of that?

1073
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: Now you're going to be on the other side, right,

1074
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: and you know your editorial could make the beat reporter's

1075
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 1: job a little bit harder.

1076
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 2: I mean, it's definitely something that I think The Times

1077
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 2: has publicly discussed over the past few years. I Mean

1078
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 2: you've seen a lot of journalists come out and be like, like,

1079
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 2: should we be endorsing presidential candidates for example, and like

1080
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 2: obviously with the Washington Posts that led to a lot

1081
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 2: of you know, backlash, But I think it's it's a

1082
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 2: general conversation because at the end of the day, like,

1083
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 2: if you endorse Kamala Harris, like all the people covering

1084
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 2: her campaign, they are going to look unfairly or not

1085
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 2: like like they're biased, right, and because people just do

1086
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 2: not know. I mean, we try really hard to put

1087
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,359
Speaker 2: a pain at theatah and all that, but like most

1088
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 2: people just are not aware of those divisions, and like

1089
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:03,359
Speaker 2: it makes it much more difficult. So it is something

1090
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 2: that we we're definitely very very mondful. I lived it.

1091
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 1: We used to say, the cable channel a second, let's

1092
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: tell our op ed page.

1093
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:10,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it didn't always.

1094
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 1: You know, if the logos in the same place, right,

1095
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: the same person signs our checks, right, the same person

1096
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 1: it is, I understand why somebody who's not in our

1097
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: industry goes I don't get the difference.

1098
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 2: Well, especially a lot of people get their news through

1099
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 2: social media, TikTok whatever, they legitimately do not see like

1100
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 2: you know, if you go to the New York Times

1101
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 2: own page right now, it is very clearly divided between

1102
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 2: opinion and news. But you're not seeing that on social media.

1103
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 2: When you click a link, you just know, and it's

1104
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 2: so easy to just scroll pass like it's saying opening

1105
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 2: and whatever, and like look like at the end of

1106
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 2: the day, I think it is important for newspapers to

1107
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 2: have both opinion and news sides. So like and we

1108
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 2: do our best to like present those differences. But but yeah,

1109
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 2: it is something that I think every news solid is

1110
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 2: grappling with harm on. This is great. I appreciate you

1111
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 2: coming on.

1112
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,439
Speaker 1: I just thought, you know, sometimes you see a piece

1113
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 1: and you're like, why isn't this this is the type

1114
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 1: a headline that some politicians should be exploiting for the

1115
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,239
Speaker 1: right reasons, right right, And we did every single thing

1116
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:08,360
Speaker 1: I write, of course, no no, no, no, I.

1117
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 2: Feel that about every monologue I do. At the beginning.

1118
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:15,359
Speaker 1: This should really fire people up. Luck with that, but look,

1119
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 1: it's it's that's the job of a journalist. It's it's

1120
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 1: one story at a time, and if you get one

1121
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:23,439
Speaker 1: person to think about something differently, you've done your job.

1122
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 1: So look, I thought it was a great piece so

1123
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 1: and well framed and well reported and sort of well explained, right,

1124
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 1: which is what made it so compelling.

1125
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 2: And you were a terrific guest here, So I appreciate it.

1126
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 2: I love to hear that, and also like you just

1127
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:38,120
Speaker 2: kind of suggest that one of the ways you actually

1128
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 2: make an impact is by doing follow ups. You don't

1129
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 2: just report a story once and leave. So you know,

1130
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 2: just being on here, it's it's great that you're getting

1131
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 2: the story out.

1132
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: So I appreciate it, all right, her appreciate it, TUXI

1133
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,959
Speaker 1: all right, So it was, you know, like everything these days,

1134
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 1: everything feels heavier, right, everything feels so consequential, And I

1135
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 1: do wonder what kind of precedents are being set, and

1136
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: I think we're all concerned with that. But in many ways,

1137
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 1: you know, you look at the conversation I had with Herman,

1138
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 1: and you realize, my god, we have the tools and

1139
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 1: we have the playbooks on how to do this. We

1140
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 1: just have to have the political will.

1141
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 2: Right.

1142
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: We all want more security in our neighborhoods, and we

1143
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 1: want better training of our police officers.

1144
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 2: Is that so hard?

1145
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 1: Is that so hard to create a bipartisan agreement on

1146
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: something like that?

1147
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 2: All right, let's take a few questions, ask Chuck.

1148
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: This comes from Tim in Springfield, Illinois, and he says, Hey,

1149
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: I'm a longtime listener back to the Daily Rundown days. Hey,

1150
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 1: soup of the day. I'm loving the continuation of the podcast.

1151
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: I have a follow up question on your proposed constitutional

1152
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 1: amendment that could add two new states.

1153
00:58:58,800 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, you like that.

1154
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 1: Democrat's been more aggressive about pushing for statehood for the

1155
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 1: District of Columbia and Puerto Rico State could help to

1156
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 1: address some of the systemic policy issues both locations face. Politically,

1157
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: these two new states would likely make it easier for

1158
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:13,919
Speaker 1: the Party to hold the Senate majority. Oh and fully

1159
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: enfranchising four million of our fellow Americans is morally the

1160
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 1: right thing to do. It seems like a much better

1161
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 1: solution than embracing gerrymandering. Sincerely, Tim from Springfield. Look, you know,

1162
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 1: the Democrats have always been hot and cold on that,

1163
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 1: and I don't know why either. Every Democrat has the

1164
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 1: correct position on the District of Columbia, which is yes,

1165
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 1: I'm for statehood is usually the answer you get. But

1166
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 1: how right there are some There's still always been some

1167
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 1: disagreements about whether you know, I think no, But I

1168
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 1: think there's general agreement that it is unfair that district

1169
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: residents have fewer rights than the resident than Americans everywhere else.

1170
00:59:58,200 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 1: The question is how do you resolve that?

1171
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 2: Right?

1172
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: There's some that argue, well, make d C part of Maryland,

1173
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 1: make DC part of Virginia, right, you know, one way

1174
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: or another, so that they can have proper representation. But

1175
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 1: the fact is it would be a bigger state than

1176
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:16,920
Speaker 1: I think what six or seven other states on that

1177
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 1: front already. And you know, look, I ultimately, when your

1178
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 1: motivation is political power, you're going to have a harder

1179
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 1: time selling things. When your motivation is giving people rights,

1180
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: you have an easier time selling it. And I think

1181
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 1: all you know, at the end of the day, you know,

1182
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:44,840
Speaker 1: this is all a compromise, right, and that's why you

1183
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 1: know you're not going to get DC by itself. And

1184
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 1: you know, we have a whole group of people in

1185
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 1: the Caribbean, not just Puerto Rico, but the Virgin Islands

1186
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 1: as well. Who are you know, basically are American citizens

1187
01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: with second class rights and like those in the district

1188
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 1: are American citizens with second class rights.

1189
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 2: That's not fair.

1190
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 1: And I think that if you're a political party, you know,

1191
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 1: it goes to you know, it's why I hate this

1192
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 1: whole jerremyanering thing. Go run a campaign, you know, I

1193
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 1: don't think any you know, most states eventually that start

1194
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 1: as one party states do eventually there is an opposition

1195
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 1: that develops. I also think that Puerto Rico has elected

1196
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 1: quite a few Republican governors over the years, including I

1197
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 1: think most recently, so I think that's why if you

1198
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,560
Speaker 1: do it as a pair so that it feels as

1199
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 1: if you're not you're not trying to do it as

1200
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:39,520
Speaker 1: a power grab, but you're doing it more as a

1201
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 1: way to give every American citizen equal rights.

1202
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 2: Right.

1203
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 1: I think that it's pretty clear that if you don't,

1204
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 1: you know, if you don't have statehood, you have less

1205
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 1: rights than you're a fellow American citizen. So I think

1206
01:01:55,960 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 1: that's the best argument. But I think that that for I,

1207
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:05,919
Speaker 1: you know, like I said, I don't know why it's

1208
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 1: not been a bigger issue. Maybe this triggers it, right,

1209
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,960
Speaker 1: the fact that there's this federal takeover, there was some

1210
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 1: thought about, hey, do you do it at least change

1211
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:17,960
Speaker 1: some of the rules that give marye make the mayor

1212
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 1: sort of have the same powers as governors do when

1213
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 1: it comes to the National Guard, you know, do you

1214
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 1: do things like that? Do you carve out like I

1215
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 1: also think, you know, we could create a federal you know,

1216
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: there's been the other compromises. You create an actual federal district,

1217
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 1: which would be essentially the government buildings. Think, you know,

1218
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 1: for those of you geographically, I think essentially you know,

1219
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania Avenue to to through you know, through the southwest

1220
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 1: going that way right from Pennsylvania Avenue northwest, say between

1221
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 1: oh Foggy Bottom and the Arena, and that you know,

1222
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 1: you make that federal district all the way through the

1223
01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:00,280
Speaker 1: mall and the capital and then the actual the rest

1224
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 1: of the neighborhoods or are part of its own state rights.

1225
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 1: There's all sorts of ways to I think, I think

1226
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 1: do this, but ultimately the reason should do it would

1227
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 1: be to make sure every American citizen is treated the same.

1228
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 1: And it's it's pretty clear if you're in the Caribbean,

1229
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 1: in an American territory, you're in the District of Columbia,

1230
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 1: you're an American citizen with second class rights, and that's

1231
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 1: that's that's wrong. Right doesn't matter if you're a dn R,

1232
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 1: you should view that as wrong. Our next question comes

1233
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 1: from Bill W. Hey, Chuck, just finished your podcast with Rocana.

1234
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Well, I appreciate keep catching up. We'll take

1235
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 1: the downloads. Very insightful and refreshing. Your question about what

1236
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 1: type of presidential candidate Democrats should look for got me

1237
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:47,680
Speaker 1: thinking about Bobby Kennedy. He wasn't shy about using political power,

1238
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 1: yet had a heart for the poor and working class

1239
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:51,640
Speaker 1: and knew how to connect with people, like a speech

1240
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:54,680
Speaker 1: in Indianapolis after Mlk's assassination. What are your thoughts? Is

1241
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 1: this the kind of candidate voters are hungry for? Best

1242
01:03:56,680 --> 01:04:01,440
Speaker 1: regards Bill W Go Detroit Liones. Yeah, good luck to

1243
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 1: your lines. I hope they finished second place. And yes,

1244
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 1: my son and I are are are sort of very

1245
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 1: upset and nervous about this Jordan Love thumb surgery. Let's

1246
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 1: just say it was the news alert that truly upset

1247
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 1: my household earlier today. But I digress. Look, I go

1248
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 1: back to something I said earlier in this podcast. I

1249
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 1: think the country needs a pastor for patriotism, and I

1250
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,919
Speaker 1: think in many ways, the Bobby Kennedy campaign of sixty eight,

1251
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, and we can have larger discussions about, you know,

1252
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:43,800
Speaker 1: what he did in office, like you know, by sixty eight,

1253
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 1: I think, you know, Bobby Kennedy of sixty eight may

1254
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 1: have may have been uncomfortable with the Bobby Kennedy that

1255
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: worked for Joe McCarthy, right, So you know, it's it's

1256
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 1: a reminder that everybody has their flaws or certainly learns

1257
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 1: along the way. But I think that that is you know,

1258
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:05,280
Speaker 1: that's constant. It is always what democrats are looking for.

1259
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:09,840
Speaker 1: They're looking for that sort of that larger than life

1260
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:13,800
Speaker 1: figure that is a bit you know, is the Great Hope,

1261
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 1: right John Kennedy. And in some ways we do this

1262
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:20,480
Speaker 1: when when leaders are slain, we almost see more in

1263
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:22,520
Speaker 1: them than maybe they ever could be right if they

1264
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 1: remained alive. Like I'm one of those who thinks that

1265
01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 1: James Garfield might have been the president that had you know,

1266
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 1: given us a civil rights Act that might have made

1267
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:38,160
Speaker 1: us a multiracial democracy in the eighteen eighties and might

1268
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 1: have finished reconstruction and been able to and instead of

1269
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 1: having to wait till nineteen sixty five to finally give

1270
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 1: equal rights to all Americans, equal voting rights to all Americans.

1271
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:51,560
Speaker 1: And so but you know, we all have that luxury

1272
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 1: because his life was taken too quickly as president. But ultimately,

1273
01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 1: you know, I was a big advocate of Bill mcgrave,

1274
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 1: and I think some and this is why I think

1275
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:05,440
Speaker 1: it may take somebody with military experience, who is you know,

1276
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 1: when you're overseas, it's just you know, it's Team America.

1277
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 1: And I think somebody needs to be able to realize that, hey,

1278
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 1: disagreement is part of being on Team America. You know,

1279
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 1: being in the loyal opposition is part.

1280
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:20,280
Speaker 2: Of being on Team America.

1281
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 1: Speaking out against your president is is patriotic of a

1282
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: thing to do is speaking out in support of your president.

1283
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 1: And our president is our president, even when we disagree

1284
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:34,560
Speaker 1: with that president vehemently, right. I just think we need

1285
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 1: somebody that wants. Like I said, it's sort of I'm

1286
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,560
Speaker 1: not a religious person, as many of you know, and

1287
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 1: yet I think about the tone and tenor of a

1288
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 1: pastor or a rabbi that just knows how to de

1289
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:55,800
Speaker 1: escalate and sort of speak to a speak to our

1290
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: better angels, right, speak to but in many ways reteach

1291
01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 1: about about the idea. You know, America is an idea.

1292
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 1: America is not a was not meant to be an

1293
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:12,680
Speaker 1: ethnic based democracy, or a white Christian nationalist movement or

1294
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 1: a Judeo Christian country.

1295
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 2: It is it is.

1296
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:21,360
Speaker 1: It is an idea, and it's unique of any other

1297
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:24,640
Speaker 1: country around the world. Right, it is not supposed to

1298
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 1: be based in anything to be you know, when we're

1299
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:30,960
Speaker 1: at our best right as a as a country and

1300
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 1: when when when do we really get to flex our muscles?

1301
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 1: That America is different than it's always at the Olympics, right,

1302
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:41,600
Speaker 1: because we are a destination for those that want freedom. Right,

1303
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 1: we accept it. You know, anybody can become an American. Right,

1304
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what race you are, what ethnicity, what

1305
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 1: religion you hold, and that diversity of where people have

1306
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:56,720
Speaker 1: you know, come from all ends of the earth to

1307
01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:00,440
Speaker 1: be to choose to become Americans. Right, That's why we're

1308
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:01,480
Speaker 1: a power in the Olympics.

1309
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 2: Right.

1310
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 1: We come now in all shapes and sizes, and so

1311
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 1: we can dominate any Olympic sport you name it, Right,

1312
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:10,440
Speaker 1: We've got somebody, somebody who can do it.

1313
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 2: And you know that that's it's.

1314
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:20,280
Speaker 1: Sort of it's embracing America as an idea rather than

1315
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 1: trying to remake America into something it never was that

1316
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:27,439
Speaker 1: the founders never intended, even if they didn't quite get

1317
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 1: it right at the start, right, which is why I

1318
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:33,719
Speaker 1: think the most important phrase that comes from the Founding

1319
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:37,639
Speaker 1: documents is more perfect Union, because the implication is we're

1320
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 1: not perfect and we should always strive to get better.

1321
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:43,240
Speaker 2: So you know who is that?

1322
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:46,040
Speaker 1: You know, I thought a guy like Bill McRaven, who

1323
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:48,439
Speaker 1: is you know, who was the head of the Joint

1324
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:54,160
Speaker 1: Special Forces and sort of essentially led helped lead lead

1325
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:56,519
Speaker 1: the mission. He wasn't physically on the mission, but sort

1326
01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:58,800
Speaker 1: of was the command and control of the mission that

1327
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:01,240
Speaker 1: got in laden. You know, here's somebody that worked for

1328
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:04,160
Speaker 1: Democratic president, worked for Republican president. You know, in his

1329
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 1: mind he just worked for a president and him without

1330
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:10,479
Speaker 1: political party rights as an independent. That sort of sobers

1331
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 1: up red and Blue. Right. I think we're probably destined

1332
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:15,800
Speaker 1: to stay at two party system, whether we like it

1333
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:18,519
Speaker 1: or not. But sometimes the parties might need a time

1334
01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:21,720
Speaker 1: out and we need somebody to sort of help teach

1335
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:25,839
Speaker 1: us again of what patriotism really is and what America

1336
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:30,880
Speaker 1: is supposed to be. So who best represents that? Right,

1337
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 1: let's just say that's a test I'm looking for going

1338
01:09:34,120 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 1: into twenty eight. All right, Next question, Joshua would be

1339
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,160
Speaker 1: if you were a twenty eight DEM strategist and you

1340
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 1: had to pick one of the DEM fighters to represent

1341
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:45,520
Speaker 1: the party, who would you pick between AOC, Gavin or Beto.

1342
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:48,760
Speaker 2: Oh.

1343
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:51,679
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, it's sort of like who.

1344
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 1: I think it's a AOC between the three of them.

1345
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:55,880
Speaker 1: I think that.

1346
01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:00,800
Speaker 2: I think she's the savviest of the three. I think

1347
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 2: she's the one.

1348
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:04,799
Speaker 1: I just think about it just tactically, I think she's

1349
01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:09,120
Speaker 1: would make the least amount of mistakes. Now, you know, perhaps,

1350
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:11,360
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not sure any of them could get elected.

1351
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:13,360
Speaker 2: I think that I don't.

1352
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:16,080
Speaker 1: Know if we're going to want to replace Trump with

1353
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:19,720
Speaker 1: you know, a more combative progressive right, you know, sort

1354
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 1: of the in what some might view as a mirror

1355
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:30,599
Speaker 1: image in that sense, right sort of. So I don't

1356
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:33,559
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's where the country is going

1357
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,720
Speaker 1: to be looking for. Perhaps they will, maybe maybe that

1358
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:40,840
Speaker 1: is where we end up if things if things deteriorate

1359
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 1: in different aspects, right, deteriorate and economy and things like that.

1360
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 1: But if you're asking me just who those three do

1361
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 1: you think would would be the probably run the best campaign,

1362
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:59,120
Speaker 1: make the least amount of mistakes, you know, between those three, right,

1363
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:08,000
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I'd probably go with AOC because

1364
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:10,880
Speaker 1: I think that she's the most genuine working class of

1365
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:11,320
Speaker 1: the three.

1366
01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:11,679
Speaker 2: Right.

1367
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:15,920
Speaker 1: Gavin, while he wasn't raised rich, sort of came you know,

1368
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 1: sort of there's always a product of the elites. I

1369
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 1: think Beto of course was was sort of had his

1370
01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:27,360
Speaker 1: you know, sort of came from some wealth. AOC really

1371
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:30,599
Speaker 1: in that sense, I think she is the best chance

1372
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:33,719
Speaker 1: of connecting with working class in America if you're gonna

1373
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:38,640
Speaker 1: pick those three. But I'm I'm skeptical any of them

1374
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:41,280
Speaker 1: could win a national race for president. I'll be I'll

1375
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:45,040
Speaker 1: be honest, but but but I do respect the skills

1376
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:48,639
Speaker 1: of AOC, probably more so than than than any of us. Look,

1377
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 1: and I got to give to Avin new some this

1378
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:53,200
Speaker 1: the I've written, you know, I think we've all written

1379
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:58,080
Speaker 1: him off plenty of times when he briefly ran against

1380
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:00,000
Speaker 1: Jerry Brown for governor and then lost and all this stuff.

1381
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:07,559
Speaker 1: You know, So he is. He is certainly no shrinking Violet.

1382
01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:11,160
Speaker 1: I just don't know if America is going to elect

1383
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 1: a former mayor of San Francisco president. I think that

1384
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:16,599
Speaker 1: is that that the symbolism of San Francisco is just

1385
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:20,000
Speaker 1: culturally too far out for swing voters in a Michigan

1386
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:21,519
Speaker 1: right at the end of the day. And maybe you

1387
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 1: could make the same argument at AOC. But in some

1388
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 1: ways I think her working class roots might might be

1389
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:30,160
Speaker 1: more of an asset, uh than if you're making me

1390
01:12:30,160 --> 01:12:35,800
Speaker 1: pick between those three. All right, last question, I'm going

1391
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 1: to take cares from Christina, so like I've contacted members

1392
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:41,840
Speaker 1: of Congress requesting impeachment proceedings against RFK Junior. But I

1393
01:12:41,880 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 1: also have a question as head of CMS, would doctor

1394
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:46,880
Speaker 1: memet Os be allowed to override some of OURFK Junior's

1395
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:49,719
Speaker 1: policy changes to keep Medicare and medicate more in line

1396
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:52,840
Speaker 1: with science. That's an interesting question, and I probably should

1397
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:54,720
Speaker 1: have read it first and tried to do some I

1398
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:57,600
Speaker 1: think there's some things that he can do. He is

1399
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 1: in a Senate confirmed position, and so yes, I think

1400
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:05,040
Speaker 1: that they're But the real issue is, you know, it

1401
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:07,880
Speaker 1: is with some of the you know what what Kennedy

1402
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:12,160
Speaker 1: did so by by pulling back a recommendation on a

1403
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:15,559
Speaker 1: vaccine all of a sudden, insurance companies won't cover. The

1404
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:17,479
Speaker 1: question is what if medical you know, does Medicaid and

1405
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:21,240
Speaker 1: Medicare follow suit or does he make sure that Medicare

1406
01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:25,200
Speaker 1: and Medicaid will still cover preventative vaccines for COVID and

1407
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:29,280
Speaker 1: for pregnant women, et cetera. So I believe in that

1408
01:13:29,400 --> 01:13:33,280
Speaker 1: sense he still has that authority and that and that

1409
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:34,960
Speaker 1: Kennedy wouldn't.

1410
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 2: Be able to have that impact.

1411
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:41,960
Speaker 1: But look, I think it's pretty clear in this response,

1412
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:45,800
Speaker 1: by the way, what I mean, I singled out the

1413
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:50,680
Speaker 1: whole lack of federal response to the CDC attack, But

1414
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:54,720
Speaker 1: my goodness, it's getting short shrift, right. I mean, you know,

1415
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:57,760
Speaker 1: if you want to play partisan here, you know, here

1416
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:03,200
Speaker 1: here President Trump seems to care about care about crime

1417
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:04,960
Speaker 1: in d C, but he doesn't care about crime at

1418
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,880
Speaker 1: the CDC. That that federal government workers were targeted by

1419
01:14:08,920 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 1: a crazy man who was inspired with fringe conspiracy theories

1420
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 1: that were that that Robert F. Kennedy Junior consistently trafficked,

1421
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:22,280
Speaker 1: then that's alarming, uh, And that that should be something

1422
01:14:22,320 --> 01:14:25,960
Speaker 1: that that should worry this White House. And again I

1423
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 1: go back I the silence of Republican elected officials about

1424
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:35,080
Speaker 1: Kennedy in general and specifically the lack of you know this,

1425
01:14:35,600 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 1: I think the lack of attention that this CDC shooting

1426
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:41,679
Speaker 1: has gotten. Part of it is that it was in Atlanta,

1427
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:44,839
Speaker 1: not d C. So maybe the the d C media,

1428
01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:51,120
Speaker 1: uh world didn't cover it is extensively. Perhaps you know,

1429
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:53,960
Speaker 1: Trump is the shiny object right now, and he he

1430
01:14:54,040 --> 01:14:56,559
Speaker 1: decided to focus on d c's crime, and there was somehow,

1431
01:14:56,560 --> 01:15:00,280
Speaker 1: But I just I do think we've we've left that

1432
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:05,120
Speaker 1: cd sort collectively traditional media left that CDC story way

1433
01:15:05,160 --> 01:15:08,360
Speaker 1: too soon. This is a much bigger problem. This is

1434
01:15:08,520 --> 01:15:15,080
Speaker 1: a problem that is that the person who's who's largely

1435
01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:18,439
Speaker 1: responsible for the atmosphere that we have about vaccines and

1436
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:22,320
Speaker 1: COVID in general is actually, you know, the call is

1437
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:26,200
Speaker 1: coming from inside the house, right is sitting there at HHS.

1438
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:30,200
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a head scratcher to me. I

1439
01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 1: think at some point Kennedy becomes a political liability for

1440
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:36,800
Speaker 1: all Republicans. The question is when do Republicans realize he's

1441
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:38,840
Speaker 1: going to become a political liability.

1442
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:40,599
Speaker 2: Anyway.

1443
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:43,599
Speaker 1: So with that, I appreciate the questions this week. Look

1444
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:48,240
Speaker 1: tomorrow's episode. Normally I do my sort of political update

1445
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:51,640
Speaker 1: on the midterms. I do that wednesdays. This is a

1446
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:55,200
Speaker 1: special day. This is a two parter, So coming tomorrow,

1447
01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 1: I will update you on some of the interesting developments

1448
01:15:58,040 --> 01:16:01,120
Speaker 1: and campaign twenty twenty six, including what the heck is

1449
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:03,960
Speaker 1: going on in the California governor's race. Is there a

1450
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:07,520
Speaker 1: front runner? Let me just tell you this, the potential

1451
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:11,240
Speaker 1: front runner has yet to announce. That's my teas for you,

1452
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:13,680
Speaker 1: And when we come back tomorrow, I'll let you know

1453
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:16,080
Speaker 1: who I think the new front runner for governor of

1454
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:19,559
Speaker 1: California may very well be. And with that I'll see

1455
01:16:19,560 --> 01:16:21,280
Speaker 1: in twenty four hours until we upload again.