Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight. From Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: We are back with George Swimmer, the author of Oswald
Speaker 2: and Kennedy The Whole Story, and previous to that he
Speaker 2: published Doppelganger, The Legend of Lee Harvey Oswald. So I
Speaker 2: want to play a little I'll call it a little
Speaker 2: game here. George called which Oswald is which? So I'm
Speaker 2: just going to run by some sort of pivotal moments
Speaker 2: in the Oswald timeline and you just we don't have
Speaker 2: to get too deep into each one, but just tell
Speaker 2: so we can track, you know, who's who here. You
Speaker 2: mentioned this one already. We talked about Camp Pendleton in
Speaker 2: San Diego. Which Oswald is training as a marine at
Speaker 2: Camp Pendleton in San Diego in nineteen fifty seven? Is
Speaker 2: it Lee or Harvey?
Speaker 3: Harvey is the Marine Corps base. And based on some information,
Speaker 3: I believe that Lee was at the language school. I
Speaker 3: don't know which service runs at, but he was at
Speaker 3: this language school in southern California and learning Spanish. And
Speaker 3: the reason that I'm saying that is a deduction. But
Speaker 3: later on I found information that he was in he
Speaker 3: spoke fluent Spanish and so he didn't study Spanish in
Speaker 3: high school and he had no background in Spanish. So
Speaker 3: the only thing I can assume him is that he
Speaker 3: spent the last year in the Marine Corps learning how
Speaker 3: to speak Spanish because he was going to work with
Speaker 3: the anti Castro exiles in Florida and in Louisiana.
Speaker 2: So Harvey is at Camp Pendleton. Lee is at Langley, Okay?
Speaker 2: So which Oswald arrives in Japan in September fifty seven
Speaker 2: and stationed at Sugi Air Force Base Lee? That's Lee, Okay? Which?
Speaker 2: And do we know in September fifty seven? Where is
Speaker 2: Harvey at?
Speaker 3: Do we know? I'm not actually sure because there was
Speaker 3: a lot of material. Anybody who's interested in that, they
Speaker 3: can read John Armstone's Armstrong's book Harvey and Lee. What
Speaker 3: happened was Harvey joined the Marines the same time that
Speaker 3: Lee did, even though Harvey was a year younger. You
Speaker 3: look at his photograph and he looks like a little kid.
Speaker 3: But anyway, both she and Lee were trained in radar,
Speaker 3: and apparently basic training and training and radar triok about
Speaker 3: a year and then for some reason I can't figure
Speaker 3: out what they pulled them out of the Marines, and
Speaker 3: Harvey went back to New Orleans and he was working
Speaker 3: there for I don't know, eight or ten months, just
Speaker 3: an ordinary job. And then he came back into the
Speaker 3: Marines and he showed up around October of that year,
Speaker 3: and that's when he switched identities with lee Is after
Speaker 3: he finished a job in New Orleans and went back
Speaker 3: into the Marines. And that was in the fall of nineteen.
Speaker 3: I guess it was fifty eight.
Speaker 2: Okay, which Oswald departs the United States in nineteen fifty
Speaker 2: nine by way of I think he went from England
Speaker 2: to Helsinki to his final destination in the Soviet Union
Speaker 2: in fifty nine.
Speaker 3: I was, yeah, well that was Harvey and he was
Speaker 3: doing what he was told, which is being a so
Speaker 3: called defector and then positively double ash.
Speaker 2: And so Harvey marries Marina Oswald and Moscow in April
Speaker 2: of sixty one.
Speaker 3: Right, I don't think you've met her in Moscow. I
Speaker 3: think he married her in Minsk.
Speaker 2: Okay, right, right, you're right, Minsk. Sorry, So, and that.
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 2: Is there any point? I mean, obviously you found instances
Speaker 2: where there was a Harvey is one in one location
Speaker 2: and Lee's in another. I mean, you can't have too.
Speaker 2: Lee Harvey Oswald's in two different locations at the same time.
Speaker 2: Aren't they starting to I mean, aren't they risking tripping
Speaker 2: themselves up? Isn't someone gonna say, wait a minute, you
Speaker 2: said that Lee Harvey Oswald was or Harvey was in Minsk,
Speaker 2: and but he was over here, you know, in Fort
Speaker 2: Worth or New Orleans or wherever. Aren't they gonna aren't
Speaker 2: they risking tripping themselves up or exposing this operation?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: See, one on one. One of the characteristics of any
Speaker 3: intelligence service is to create confusion, and so they're perfectly
Speaker 3: happy to confuse people. And so a lot of times
Speaker 3: when the Warrant Commission would get contradictory facts, they'd say, oh, well,
Speaker 3: you know, that's just a witness who is a misidentifying
Speaker 3: this latter or other thing. I'll let me mention one
Speaker 3: thing to you that shows you what goes on Harvey
Speaker 3: with the New Orleans and one of the things he
Speaker 3: was tasked to do by the CIA, he was helping
Speaker 3: to develop a cancer. This is crazy, but the CIA
Speaker 3: wanted to create a cancer, fast acting cancer and use
Speaker 3: it to kill Castro. Now, this is one of those
Speaker 3: any ideas that the CIA had during the fifties and sixties. Anyway,
Speaker 3: he was a doctor called doctor Mary Sherman, and she
Speaker 3: was a very well known physician and she was in
Speaker 3: charge of doing this. So Harvey's a job wasn't very much,
Speaker 3: you know, we just he killed some mice to get
Speaker 3: the cancer cells and so on. Anyway, they did find
Speaker 3: out they did find a quick killing cancer, and so
Speaker 3: that Harvey supposedly he was tasked with taking these cancer
Speaker 3: cells and a special container to Mexico City. And now
Speaker 3: these cells are very delicate, and so he couldn't get
Speaker 3: on a bus and go to Mexico City. So I
Speaker 3: am assuming that he was flown there, and I'm making
Speaker 3: a guess he was flown there in some planes that
Speaker 3: were all owned by oil companies, because there's very clearly
Speaker 3: some millionaire oil and were involved one way or another
Speaker 3: with this thing. So Harvey he went to Mexico City
Speaker 3: supposedly to go and hand off these cancer cells to
Speaker 3: somebody who would take it to Cuba and then somehow
Speaker 3: they would inject it in Castro and he died of
Speaker 3: this cancer. I mean, it's a looney thing, but they
Speaker 3: were serious about it. Okay, Nobody knows about that except
Speaker 3: his lover. He had a lover in the New Orleans
Speaker 3: Judith Barry Baker. Yes, and she's the one who wrote
Speaker 3: in her book that he went to Mexico City by plane. Apparently.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is also covered in Sorry, George,
Speaker 2: I think it's also covered in Doctor Mary's Monkey by
Speaker 2: Edward Haslam.
Speaker 3: Okay, so, but on the record quote Lee, Harvey Oswald,
Speaker 3: which actually had to be Lee, went from I'm not
Speaker 3: sure if he started from Dallas, but anyway he went.
Speaker 3: He went to He went to mexic Pro City on
Speaker 3: two different buses. And while he was on that bus,
Speaker 3: the second bus, he started talking to a couple of
Speaker 3: young women and he told them he'd been in Russia,
Speaker 3: and then he pulled out a past passport with Russian
Speaker 3: stamps on it. Now, the only problem with that is
Speaker 3: that Harvey Oswald had gotten a new passport in New
Speaker 3: Orleans about a month before, so Hardy must have turned
Speaker 3: in his old passport and the CIA gave it to Lee. Now,
Speaker 3: if you go, if you look in my book, and
Speaker 3: then you can look online, there's a lot of other pictures.
Speaker 3: There are many pictures, including the IDs, A couple of
Speaker 3: IDs and so on that people claim was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Speaker 3: But people who have done a photo analysis say that
Speaker 3: the right side of the pictures is the right side
Speaker 3: of Lee's face and the left side of the picture
Speaker 3: is the left side of Harvey's face. And I have
Speaker 3: some of those photographs in my book. So anyway, Lee
Speaker 3: was on this bus and he had this Russian passport,
Speaker 3: so we know there are two different people, ones on
Speaker 3: a bus and oness on a plane.
Speaker 2: Fascinating back to which Oswald is which which Oswald is
Speaker 2: distributing Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets in New Orleans in
Speaker 2: sixty early sixty three.
Speaker 3: That was Harvey. And I once ran across a vague
Speaker 3: mention that Harvey had actually given out these pamphlets in
Speaker 3: Dallas for I don't know, it was just a very
Speaker 3: brief period, but I couldn't find anything more on that.
Speaker 3: It was just a mention somewhere by someone. But anyway,
Speaker 3: he did it in New Orleans. Now, this is where
Speaker 3: the thing gets very confusing but very interesting. When Harvey
Speaker 3: came back from Russia, he didn't do anything. He got
Speaker 3: a job paying a dollar twenty five cents an hour
Speaker 3: U and that was a very very medial job. Well,
Speaker 3: then then he was asked to come to Dallas by
Speaker 3: a Russian named George lawn Shilder. I don't want to
Speaker 3: get that about launch story. And then after he got
Speaker 3: to Dallas, eventually he was sent to New Orleans. As
Speaker 3: you mentioned. Now the thing about New Orleans is aren't
Speaker 3: interesting because he was doing a couple of legitimate intelligence
Speaker 3: intelligence work down in New Orleans and at the same
Speaker 3: time he was being set up by the conspirators to
Speaker 3: be a pants a patsy. Now the handing out the
Speaker 3: pamphlets want to set him up as a castro loving patsy.
Speaker 3: He handed out the leaflets, he got on radio, he
Speaker 3: got on television, he got arrested, and so he was.
Speaker 3: He was known in New Orleans as a quote castro unquote.
Speaker 3: That was his second personality. And the guy, the guy
Speaker 3: that was in charge Balls, his name was David Philip.
Speaker 3: David Philip I can't think it was last night for
Speaker 3: right now, but anyway, he was in charge of Harvey.
Speaker 3: And so what the original persona was a Russian Russian
Speaker 3: loving defector, and then he goes to New York and
Speaker 3: he adds to it a castro loving person. And actually
Speaker 3: when he was in the last year he was in
Speaker 3: the Marines, he told people that he was planning to
Speaker 3: go and join Castro's army. So anyway, those are the
Speaker 3: those are the things that he was being set up with.
Speaker 3: The legitimate things he was doing was he was doing
Speaker 3: this cancer helping with the cancer research. Then he was
Speaker 3: he was involved in some way or another with training
Speaker 3: the Cuban exiles. And I spoke back to the question you
Speaker 3: had of it is one day I met each other.
Speaker 3: There's a photograph. It's only something that somebody told about.
Speaker 3: I couldn't find that. Nobody, nobody knows what it is.
Speaker 3: But anyway, this photograph, which the government probably has, showed
Speaker 3: Harvey and Olshold and David Attlee Phillips.
Speaker 2: And the yeah that was the handler.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that time that both both Oswald's were at that
Speaker 3: particular camp helping him train. So by that time both
Speaker 3: of them knew each other.
Speaker 2: Oh wait a second, you're saying that somewhere there is
Speaker 2: in existence a photograph showing Harvey and Lee Oswald, the
Speaker 2: two doppel gangers in the same photograph.
Speaker 3: That's what That's what I read. You know, I haven't
Speaker 3: seen it. I can only tell you that somebody claimed
Speaker 3: that there was a photograph and the government has it.
Speaker 2: So let's talk about the Texas Book Depository building. Harvey
Speaker 2: is hired to work there.
Speaker 3: Or is it Lee Harvey is? And actually, you know
Speaker 3: he's hired in name only because Harvey had three jobs
Speaker 3: when he came back from Russia. Had the first job
Speaker 3: I mentioned earlier. Then he had a job in New Orleans,
Speaker 3: and then he had this job in Dallas, and all
Speaker 3: three jobs were arranged for him by the CIA, So
Speaker 3: you know, it was a normal hire, and that shout
Speaker 3: was very Baker said that Harvey told her that the
Speaker 3: so called superintendent of the Texas School but repository knew
Speaker 3: that Harvey was an informer for the FBI. So you know,
Speaker 3: if you want to get into that, there's a lot
Speaker 3: of funny stuff going on with the Texas School Books topauditory.
Speaker 2: Yeah, before that, I got one more, Which Oswald is which,
Speaker 2: and that has to do with that famous photograph in
Speaker 2: the backyard of well whichever. Oswald was living at two
Speaker 2: hundred and fourteen West Neely Street in Dallas, where he's
Speaker 2: holding the Manlika the Menlca carcano rifle in one hand
Speaker 2: and he's got the two communist or socialist newspapers in
Speaker 2: the other. Is that Harvey or is that Lee? It's
Speaker 2: an either one oh of the plot sickens.
Speaker 3: It's a phony picture. They superimposed the face of Harvey
Speaker 3: from the lifts up onto another figure, and the people
Speaker 3: who've analyze the photograph, I believe the figure is a
Speaker 3: police photographer, and you can tell there's something wrong with it.
Speaker 3: I don't want to get too all the technicogy details,
Speaker 3: but the shadows are all wrong. And what is the
Speaker 3: most obvious thing is when you enlarge the photographs, which
Speaker 3: I was able to do on my computer, I could
Speaker 3: see with the naked eye. You don't need to analyze anything.
Speaker 3: You can see that in Harvey's booking photo in Dallas,
Speaker 3: his chin is almost to a point, very narrow, narrow chin,
Speaker 3: and there's very little at the very bottom of the shin.
Speaker 3: And you look at the picture on the so called
Speaker 3: backyard photo and the chin is square and it's quite wide,
Speaker 3: so you can tell immediately that it's not the same chin.
Speaker 3: And there's lots of other things I didn't want to
Speaker 3: get into, but there are people of written articles and
Speaker 3: books about all the things that are wrong with a photograph,
Speaker 3: and I think every researcher agrees at this point that
Speaker 3: this is a pony photograph. I also theorized that this
Speaker 3: building where the photograph was taken was a CIA safehouse
Speaker 3: and it was used because they had a backyard which
Speaker 3: was protected and they could go and use the backyard
Speaker 3: to make the picture.
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