WEBVTT - 23andMe Takes on Long Covid Impact 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.440 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovk. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:09.799 you the latest news from the world of business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.640 plus technology, politics, economics, all partnising the power of Business 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.119 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:19.640 analyst in more than one and twenty countries. You can 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.239 download Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.160 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.840 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio, or watch us on 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:32.480 YouTube search Bloomberg Global News her company. You might recall 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.360 a Business Week cover story back in November about how 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.479 twenty three and Me wants to use its customers genetic 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:41.880 data to beat cancer. It was a fascinating story when 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.199 we think about innovation disruption when it comes to treatments, 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:47.919 especially when it comes to cancer. We've got with us 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:51.320 and Wichiski, the co founder and the CEO of twenty 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:53.880 three and Me and joins us this afternoon via zoom 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:57.200 from Las Gatos, California. And how are you. I'm good? 0:00:57.360 --> 0:00:59.280 Are you? We're doing well? Thanks, it's really good to 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:01.080 have you with us. I want to get into everything 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:03.320 that you're understanding when it comes to COVID and long 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:05.560 covid via twenty three and me. But first I want 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:07.720 to just get your get your thoughts on what we're 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:11.280 seeing with the macro environment, with the volatility in the 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:13.840 stock market. We should note a year to date shares 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:16.920 of twenty three and me. Uh, down about give us 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:21.800 your take. Oh well, that's that's that's a big question. UM. 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:24.360 I mean, look, the markets are definitely complicated right now, 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:27.679 and I think that you know, it's as coming from 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:29.360 the Wall Street world and now being the CEO of 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:33.840 a publicly traded company, UM, it is. You know, it's 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.319 it's interesting that twenty three continues to execute UM. I'm 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.440 incredibly proud of the team. UM. We continue to move 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.720 programs through the pipeline. UM, you know, make drug discovery. 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:48.560 UM continue to UM you know, engage our customers on 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:51.360 you know, genomic medicine and where we can go with that. 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:54.240 We recently acquired a company called Lemonade, so it gives 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:58.040 us the ability to offer UM care to our customers 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.200 both through pharmacy as well as to access to care providers. 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.720 So UM the company has just continued to execute. But 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.720 obviously market conditions are are challenging. So we're very mindful 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:12.440 of the fact that market conditions have changed, and um, 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:14.760 you know, the future is more than certain. So we 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:17.000 take all that into consideration now and we want to 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:18.560 talk to more about what you're doing, because I feel 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:20.040 like we just came back from a conference it was 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.000 all about the financial world. Um. I was involved in 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.160 a panel that specifically about what the future of money is, 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.359 reimagining it, and I think when it comes to things 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:31.920 like financial services and certainly healthcare, it does feel like 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.320 we're on the cusp of doing things so different, especially 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:36.760 when it comes to treatment modalities. Having said that, I 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:39.080 just want to go back to the market environment because 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.040 we're asking all of our leaders this. I mean, when 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.359 you do have a stock that is down more than six, 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:46.240 I mean, what kind of pressure does that put on 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:48.520 you and your team who are working on things that 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:52.720 are going to take some time. Yeah, you know, I 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:54.880 was investing back in sort of when the market crash 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.880 back in two thousand, um, you know, two thousand one um, 0:02:57.919 --> 0:02:59.640 and it took a long time to recover. And I 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.600 think that there's the way we approach this is really 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:04.960 about making sure that we're doing things that are going 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.880 to um, you know, see see value within near term 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.680 and you know probably have to to you know, minimize 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:14.400 some of the projects that are going to focus on 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.720 some of the longer term initiatives, but really focus on 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.240 priorities and and you know, also making sure that you're 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:24.280 using cash and the wisest way, so um, all kinds 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:27.480 of things that we start to you know, reevaluate. But 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.440 you know, it's it's really about making sure that you 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.160 we you know, we have a very strong balanciet right 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.840 now and making sure that we um, you know, extend 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.600 that runway as long as possible, and making sure that 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:42.240 all the programs that we're focused on are really essential. Uh. 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:44.600 And I want to get to the research that you've 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:46.880 recently found at twenty three and me some really interesting 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:48.680 stuff when it comes to long COVID and I think, 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:51.040 you know, we're at the point in the pandemic where 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:53.520 Caroline I traveling yesterday, at some points I felt like 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:55.640 I was the only one wearing a mask on some 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:57.800 of those flights in the airport and even at this 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.280 conference that we were at. But Long CODE have my 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:03.880 mask go back you did too, Yeah, but but we 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.840 were it was like, yeah, that was it. Um, we 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:09.440 were in Texas to be fair, But I do want 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.040 to know and what you found when it comes to 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:13.960 long COVID, because that's something that I think about a 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:15.720 lot and one of the reasons why I don't want 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:19.520 to get COVID. Yeah. So there's a couple of things 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.680 that are really interesting thing for me about this. So 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:24.160 first and foremost, you know, the way part of what 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:26.520 we conceptualize when we started twenty three and me, and 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:28.360 it goes back to some of your earlier questions, was 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.040 really a whole new way of doing research, Like how 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:33.000 is it you can have millions and millions of people 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:36.760 engaged on a single platform with phenotypic data, with their 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:38.839 genetic information, and be able to go back to them 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:42.479 very quickly, easily ask more questions and make insights. And 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:44.760 so this long COVID research that we've done is really 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.200 a good example of how the twenty three model works. 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:49.680 That we could put out a survey to our customers, 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.039 collect a lot of information and make really interesting and 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.400 meaningful findings. So one of the things a couple of 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:58.719 things here that are are interesting and again being female. 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:01.520 It's obviously top of my mond mind. UM. Over seventy 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.120 eight percent of those diagnosed with long COVID were women, 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:10.200 so clearly disproportionately impacting women. UM. People with depression diagnosed 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:13.640 depression and anxiety are more than twice as likely uh 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:17.800 to have it, so twice twice increasing their risk. UM. 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.040 Half of those people are UM, you know, having persistent 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:24.960 symptoms for over six months UM, and about ten percent 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.360 or having it for over a year. UM. So it's 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.279 you know, all this data comes from about a hundred 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.960 thousand customers who reported that they had COVID, over twenty 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.880 six thousand that said that they had long COVID. So 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:39.239 we have a lot of data here, and it's definitely 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:43.000 concerning that it's again impact so many women. UM. Anxiety 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.240 being a risk factor is obviously quite interesting to to 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.080 follow up further on, and the fact that it's so persistent, 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:51.359 so similar to you and what you just said. I 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:53.400 was recently at Lego Land and nobody was wearing a 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.120 mask but me and I am. I'm sticking to my 0:05:56.200 --> 0:06:00.279 mask quite quite of my yeah pay airport yesterday, Carols, 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:02.760 I've wear this duck mask around and and all our listeners, 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:04.360 and this guy at the airport was like, what is 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:06.840 that mask? And I had to explain, this thing is 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:11.919 actually pretty comfortable. It's go ahead there. I love it. 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:13.800 I love it. No, I think it's just it's it's 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:16.719 just clear that there's you know, I this this clear 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.240 like long term impacts here and so understanding it. There's 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:21.360 a lot more to be followed up on with respect 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:23.360 to long COVID. We kept saying that milk and we're 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.360 at the Milk and Institute in April. Um, nobody had 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:29.200 masks on and what is the head of Mayo Clinic 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.080 comes up, comes up, and who's an m D. And 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:33.680 he was the only one having a mask, and he 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:35.200 kept it on to the interview, took it off for 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:36.760 the interview, and put it right back on. He's like, 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.640 why wouldn't I wear a mask? At this point? UM, 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:41.760 so much more to talk, Please come back soon. We 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:43.240 love to hear about the work you're doing because I 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:45.240 think it's so relevant to where we are going in 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.320 the world. Uh. And Sky she's co founder, chief executive 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:52.320 officer twenty three and me via Zoom from Los Gatos, California. 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:54.800 I did have a mask, and I also I do 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:56.120 like to wear it on the plane too, because it 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:58.520 keeps me warm. And then there was somebody like coughing 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:00.360 like crazy, and I was like, yeah, but when I 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:01.880 was hanging out by the pool, I wasn't wearing it. 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:03.560 Now you weren't. I don't wear it out, Can I 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.000 tell you? He looks so California. I wish I had 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.320 taken a picture. All right, lots more to come right 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:12.640 here on Bloomberg Radio. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:16.840 with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:20.080 Bloomberg Radio. So this story is among the most right 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:22.800 on the Bloomberg Today. It's also on the Bloomberg Big Take. 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:25.559 It is an excerpt from a new book that's also 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:27.880 featured in the new issue of Bloomberg Business Week, which 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:30.080 is out on newsstands. You can find it online at 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.920 Bloomberg dot com, slash Business Weekend on the Bloomberg terminal. 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:35.080 It is riveting. I read it in this week's issue 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:37.520 of Bloomberg Business Week. The story by Michael Smith and 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:40.400 Jonathan Franklin. It's an excerpt from the new book Cabin Fever, 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:43.720 and it describes the panic and despair aboard Holland America's 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:47.360 MS Zandem as COVID ripped through passengers and crew. Michael 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.240 Smith's Projects and investigations reporter for Bloomberg Business Week. He 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.560 joins us viasume from Miami. Joel Webber is the editor 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:55.000 of Bloomberg Business Week. He joins us on the access 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.120 line from Brooklyn. Joel, I gotta tell you reading this, 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:01.040 I felt like I was on the ship and I'm 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:02.960 I mean, there's no other way to put that. It 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.400 brought me back two years ago and just the terror 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:10.680 and horror these passengers felt, oh man, those early days 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:16.520 of the pandemic. And it still associates with the crew, 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.480 the story of the cruise industry and and Carnival and 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.880 especially the MS um zend MP. And you know this, 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:28.640 this book, which were so proud of Mike about Cavin Fever, 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:34.000 really began with a Business Week story. But when we 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:35.960 got to do the excerpt, we wanted him to to 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:38.080 revisit it and come up with something special. So so 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.280 Mike tell us about the book and and also the excerpt. Yeah, 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.360 like you said it, Um, it started with basically covering 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.040 this story. I was I was just fascinated by and 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.480 horrified by it as an unfolded um, you know, in 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.240 the news and on our screens, and then it turned 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.560 into the excellent UM feature story we did for Business Week, 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:02.520 and that basically led to uh, my friend Jonathan Franklin's 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:04.440 who I've known for a long time. His agent called 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:05.840 me up when he saw the story and he said, 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:08.160 you have to write a book about this. It's you know, 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:11.000 it's just an amazing story. It's it's it's COVID, but 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.280 it's also sort of a story of human survival on 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:16.920 the high seas, and it's filmk and all this stuff. 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:20.360 So he kind of convinced me to to go for it. 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:22.880 And luckily, uh, you know, I had Bloomberg behind me, 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:25.960 and they really accommodated me, starting with Joe Weber. Um, 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:28.960 So you know, it started with that, and I just 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:32.560 found it to be, uh a sort of a way 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.400 to tell the story of what we all went through 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:38.840 with COVID, but just to the extreme, because that's exactly 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.040 what it was. Um. You know, this particular ship left 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:47.440 South America on March eight, and about forty five minutes 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:51.679 before it left port in Buenos Aires, South America, UM, 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:55.080 the State Department put out a warning saying people, especially 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:59.360 older people, should not take cruises, and they left port 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:03.079 any and the world just started shutting down around them. 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:05.400 And then they discovered COVID was actually on the ship, 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:09.400 and we're just stuck out on the high seas as 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.319 far away as you can imagine from for most of 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:16.559 the world as this disease just started picking people off 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:20.719 one by one. Um and uh, and it's just it's 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:25.560 just really incredible the more we dug into the what happened, UM, 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.520 just the individual stories of heroism and part of these 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:32.320 crew members on this ship that are underpaid, overworked, and 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.240 we're really just risking their lives to take care of 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:39.199 what is basically like a shipload of everybody's grand grandparents, 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:43.480 you know, like really just vulnerable people, especially then, UM, 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.280 who were just stuck in their cabins, terrified and just 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:49.800 waiting for this disease to come in and kill them 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.560 by some unknown way. Well, Michael, Michael, let me jump 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:54.480 in for a second, because I think what is always 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:55.920 so good and it sounds like in your book, the 0:10:56.000 --> 0:11:00.120 very the specificity and the individuals telling their accounts what 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.560 they saw, and and this one excerpt that's in the book, Uh, 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:06.560 And in the magazine, I should say, you talk about 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:08.960 this individual George walking into the pack kitchen of the 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:12.160 cruise ship and asking a booming voice, what do you need? 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.120 And we obviously find out, as you detail, they needed 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.240 a lot. What was it in terms of the specifics 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.160 that really just jumped out for you, Well, what jumped 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:23.880 out for me was in that in that particular scene, 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:28.720 if you will, which is all real um, is that 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:34.640 he uh, was one of about a dozen volunteers who 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:39.160 were working on other ships and they put out a call, uh, 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:41.360 you know, we need people to come and help really 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:45.560 relieve this overworked and ever sickening crew on this other 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:48.400 ship and just helped him on the ship because if not, 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:50.360 it's just going to be a disaster and the ship 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.400 will not be able to function. And so he was 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.120 one of the ones who he did the call very courageously. 0:11:56.200 --> 0:12:00.000 He knew or he suspected that he was getting into 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:01.920 a situation where there's covid although he didn't really know. 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.240 I think he sort of hoped it wasn't covid um, 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.400 but he just went for it. And it's quite remarkable 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:12.959 and the fact that the reason people sort of were 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:15.520 just sort of overwhelmed by joy when he came in 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:19.000 and said, what you need, UM, is that they were 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:20.960 at a point of desperation. I'm talking about the people 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:23.120 who are working on the zan Dam had been fighting 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.720 this for for you know, for for many days by then, UM, 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.000 and the fact that someone from the outside world was 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:33.000 actually coming on board a great risk to help them 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.480 was just emotionally more than any of them could take. UM. 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:38.480 And of course when he got on and realized how 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.720 bad it was, he started saying, you know, I should 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.679 have listened to my wife because his wife, he's from Romania. 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:46.880 His job on this other ship called Austro Dam was 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.760 to run the shops on board, you know, like selling 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:53.960 jewelry and overpriced uh you know, scarves and stuff, and 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.480 he has, you know, has he has his little kids 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:58.600 at home back in Romania, and his wife said, are 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:00.640 you crazy? Why are you doing this? And he's like, 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:02.720 I just got to do it. And so, you know, 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:04.400 one of the first things he thought of when he 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:06.319 realized how bad it was was I should listen to 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:09.160 my wife. But but he stuck with it, UM. And 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:12.079 that's just that's what's so striking about the story to 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.040 me is that UM, you had so many people like 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.800 that who were working that ship, who really risked their lives, 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:21.760 and we're you know, we just plunge themselves into a 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:27.200 chaotic um situation that was COVID at that time in 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:28.880 the world. You know, we were all going through this, 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:31.959 you know, I what I what I think. One thing, 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.040 the reason I think that the book sort of resonates 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:37.480 with almost everybody, is that it takes you back to 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.480 those days when you were like scrubbing your groceries with 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.439 with you know, with antiseptic wipes, or like you know, 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:45.040 putting him the garage for a couple of days, which 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:46.920 you're afraid you would get COVID from the you know, 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:50.960 your your box cereal or something. UM. It says, which 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.120 now seems almost ridiculous because we kind of we know 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.240 so much now and we were all vaccinated or most 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:58.560 of us are. UM. But to me, it just like 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.880 it was like that at on Turbo Charged. You know, 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.560 it just takes you back to that time and how 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.920 dangerous things were, but it also takes you to a 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:11.760 place where you're really happy you survived UM. And that's 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:13.720 the way, Mike. You know. The other element that I 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:15.440 just want to touch on because it's so central to 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:17.839 the excerpt, and it sort of last question here we 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:20.040 wrap up and only have a few more seconds. But 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:24.480 you know, really the penultimate tension here is is Panama, right, 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:26.280 like the ship makes it all an all the way 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.320 around uh south South America, and then uh, you know 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:34.120 it culminates with this idea of the canal, right, and 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:38.680 and how did that play out quickly? Well, if you're right, 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:42.240 the Panama did not want to let the ship through because, uh, 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.120 when they publicly announced that there was COVID a board, 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.520 which is in this in this exert um, that triggered 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.400 a basically prohibition on any ship going through the canal 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.520 with the COVID case on board, because the Panamenians were 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:59.840 rightfully worried that um, you know, the disease with somehow 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:04.520 ump off the ship onto land or more critically, the 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.240 canal pilots, which there are only a few that have 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:09.240 to take every ship through the canal, would all get 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.040 sick and they would have to shut down the Panama 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:14.560 Canal with Mike, we gotta run. This is a great read. 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.000 Check out the magazine. Check out the book. Michael Smith 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:23.880 and Joel Weber a Bloomer Business Week. This is Bloomberg 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.640 Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:31.320 Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. We've been covering a lot of 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.440 the crypto headlines as well our own ogre career, writing 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.560 about how crypto traders are turney against each other, Tim 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:41.360 in a collapsing market. Yeah, we mentioned the challenges that 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:44.320 the crypto community said this week when it comes to Celsius, 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.960 we got three arrows as well, Babel, as Movie Shan 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:50.680 wrote for the Bloomberg Terminal. Let's get to someone in 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:52.960 the crypto community who can help shed some light on this. 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:55.720 Noah Buxton as a partner in practice leader of blockchain 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.440 and digital assets at Armanino. He joins us on the 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.280 phone from San Francisco. It's good to have you with us. 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.760 No uh I mentioned some of the big headlines just 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:06.000 from the last few days. At this point, not to 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:10.480 mention coin base layoffs close of the firm. My question 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:14.160 for you is about adoption. When consumers who haven't dipped 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:18.160 their toes into crypto see stories like these, and then 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:22.040 consumers who have gotten burned on crypto with declining asset prices, 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.320 what does that do for widespread adoption of the of 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:30.240 the digital asset. Yeah, Tim, thanks with a question, and Carol, 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:34.240 thanks for having me. Yes, certainly, Uh this this puts 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:38.520 caution right in people's minds. It puts additional skepticism as well. 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.360 The headlines right now are certainly not great. If you're 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:43.920 thinking about, hey, what is this new technology? How do 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:46.360 I get my mind around it? What are the investment 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.960 of potentials or opportunities in here? And then then all 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:53.000 you hear is bad things? Right, So of course it 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:56.480 puts puts a temper. You know, it chills the market 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.400 when it comes to new entrance, that's for sure, UM. 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:01.800 And and that happens in every crypto downturn. Right, we 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:04.200 have sort of the new entrance, the wheat is separated 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:08.159 from the chaff, and UM. You know, unfortunately, yes, some 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.080 people get hurt in these investments. UM. But what we see, 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:13.360 is what I see on a daily basis, is a 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:18.200 core set of UM companies that are innovating, that are 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:22.639 truly doing UM good work in terms of democratizing finance, 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:26.840 opening up additional opportunities, interesting financial products that I think 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.640 will be important for our future UM. And so there's 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.800 a lot of good innovation that's still happening behind the scenes, 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:36.359 and self to say nasent innovation, I mean for the 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:38.240 folks that we keep talking to. And I mentioned a 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:41.399 crypto panel I did out at b and Y malon 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:46.040 Pershing Inside this week with two individuals who are very 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:49.880 well versed in the crypto space and being very realistic 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.360 that this is like the early early days of the Internet, 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:54.920 and that the timeline on this and there's going to 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.320 be a lot of fallout, which we're seeing right now 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.399 that Noah, the timeline is probably a lot longer than 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:05.400 we all realize. When there comes to the credibility. Sure, yeah, 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.040 I don't think that's an unfair assessment by any means, right. 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:10.960 I think us, those of us that work in this 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.879 every day had gotten pretty comfortable being at a you know, 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.920 two and three trillion dollar market gap. Hey, we feel 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:19.800 like a real market now. Look at you know, look 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:22.199 at look at us UM and bitcoin itself was a 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:25.159 trillion dollar asset class, you know, and we saw institutional 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:27.520 players in the space, you know, start to treat it 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.640 that way, right, this is an institutional quality asset. It's 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:34.320 a digital commodity um and you know, when that value 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:38.320 is stripped out very quickly. Um. Yes, you realize that, Wow, 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:41.159 we actually have a very very shallow market. Um. And 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:44.119 so uh, these things move very quickly. And also the 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:49.199 credit moves differently in crypto as as compared to traditional markets. 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.960 And so that's why we see these these very very 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.800 fast bottoming outs that can happen. Yeah, I want to 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:56.440 I want to build on that a little bit because 0:18:56.440 --> 0:19:00.399 I think about what our markets, bloomer markets, uh. Alice 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:03.959 have a guilty little said earlier today about the idea 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:07.360 of seeing looking to bitcoin is a sign of capitulation, 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:09.639 and it reminds me of what Scott minded Over Kugenheim 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.880 said on Bloomberg TV just a few days ago after 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:17.679 fed here J Powell uh spoke the idea that cryptos 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:21.800 canary in the coal mine for risk assets like equities. No, 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.959 and I'm wondering what the crypto market can tell us 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:30.160 about the way that other asset classes are going to move. Yeah, 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:32.920 that's an interesting perspective. I do see cryptos are very 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:36.560 free market. Honestly. I think that, Um, yeah, when we 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.720 see uh, as I just mentioned the for instance of 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.880 credit credit tightening quickly, So I do think that there's 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.600 a canary in the coal mine aspect. And I think 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:47.840 it's also fair to to look at the you know, 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:51.560 equities markets today and say, wow, look at the ratios. 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:55.600 This seems a bit disconnected from reality. Um but why 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:57.760 does that move slower? Why are we not seeing downturns? 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.680 There are many reasons, of course, but I do think 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:04.320 that some of those reasons are there's um an infrastructure 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.600 of credit facilities, there's a lender of last resort. There's 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.280 a whole infrastructure of sort of trust and transparency in 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:13.840 those markets. Right public companies do reporting, um you know, 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:16.879 there's a rich market of analysts that that analyze all 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:20.199