WEBVTT - What Should Colleges Do about ChatGPT? 0:00:15.564 --> 0:00:28.804 Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 0:00:28.844 --> 0:00:31.404 better decisions. I'm Maria Kanigogo. 0:00:31.244 --> 0:00:32.204 And I'm Nate Silver. 0:00:32.724 --> 0:00:36.244 So today on the show, Nate, we're gonna first revisit 0:00:36.684 --> 0:00:40.324 our predictions about the conclave. They were wrong, as was 0:00:40.364 --> 0:00:44.164 basically everyone else's, and then talk a little Coker and 0:00:44.244 --> 0:00:45.764 my recent trip to Monte Carlo. 0:00:46.484 --> 0:00:48.404 And I'll try to slip in a few New York 0:00:48.444 --> 0:00:51.564 Knicks references you may notice on the show. But we'll 0:00:51.564 --> 0:00:55.404 also talk about the rampant use of chat GPT to 0:00:55.604 --> 0:00:58.844 cheat on college campuses, inspired by a recent article in 0:00:58.884 --> 0:01:02.804 New York Magazine. 0:01:07.044 --> 0:01:12.004 So with that, Nate, let's dive in. I'm so sorry 0:01:12.084 --> 0:01:16.284 that Pizza Bala did not end up becoming pope. That 0:01:16.284 --> 0:01:20.284 would have been fun. However, pizza is definitely on everyone's 0:01:20.324 --> 0:01:24.164 minds because the pope is from Chicago, and we all 0:01:24.204 --> 0:01:27.364 know that Chicago is famous for its deep dish pizza. 0:01:27.484 --> 0:01:29.124 In fact, Nate, the last time we had a meal 0:01:29.164 --> 0:01:30.804 together was over Chicago style people. 0:01:30.884 --> 0:01:32.644 You know, the last time we talked about Chicago, you 0:01:32.684 --> 0:01:35.724 actually encouraged me to get peaquads pizza, which I know 0:01:35.844 --> 0:01:38.604 and love and like, I had the whole it was 0:01:38.644 --> 0:01:42.244 a lunch sized pizza. Right. I have not had that 0:01:42.404 --> 0:01:46.964 accumulation of like that much dairy, I don't think in years. 0:01:47.044 --> 0:01:49.644 Pick Quads is amazing. You should visit it. 0:01:49.724 --> 0:01:54.844 This podcast is sponsored by Peaquad's Pizza use our affiliate length. 0:01:55.084 --> 0:01:59.244 I'm just kidding, No, I found this very interesting because, like, 0:01:59.284 --> 0:02:03.084 I lived in Chicago. The guy's a Chicago White Sox fan. 0:02:03.124 --> 0:02:05.604 He's a Villanova a basketball fan, and attended Villanova, has 0:02:05.604 --> 0:02:08.244 a mathematics degree. So it's like, you know, neither of 0:02:08.324 --> 0:02:10.204 us are Catholic. We're not going to shock you with that, 0:02:10.324 --> 0:02:13.684 I don't think, but like, it's very strange to have 0:02:13.724 --> 0:02:18.564 a pope that's kind of like memeable and relatable to Americans. 0:02:20.124 --> 0:02:24.164 And this was not well predicted at prediction markets. He 0:02:24.204 --> 0:02:28.164 had had around a one percent chance of becoming the pope. 0:02:28.164 --> 0:02:31.004 If you look at various shortlists and long lists published 0:02:31.004 --> 0:02:34.124 by various userganizations. You know, the New York Times mentions 0:02:34.204 --> 0:02:36.604 him in like the twentieth paragraph. The Washington Post doesn't 0:02:36.604 --> 0:02:39.324 mention him at all, for example, and yet he won, 0:02:40.884 --> 0:02:43.284 I believe after just the second day of the conclave. 0:02:43.324 --> 0:02:44.484 Do you know how many ballots there. 0:02:44.364 --> 0:02:47.724 Were we don't, but it was just over twenty four hours, 0:02:47.724 --> 0:02:50.324 so it could not have been more than four ballots. 0:02:50.684 --> 0:02:53.284 That would have been I think the maximum given the 0:02:53.324 --> 0:02:56.284 amount of time, if I remember correctly about how the 0:02:56.284 --> 0:02:57.364 ballot process works. 0:02:57.484 --> 0:03:00.644 So once this decision came quickly, markets assumed that one 0:03:00.684 --> 0:03:02.324 of the front runners is going to win, right, which 0:03:02.324 --> 0:03:06.004 is a dynamic we had talked about on the program beforehand, 0:03:07.244 --> 0:03:09.284 and that was you know, maybe he was a front runner, 0:03:09.324 --> 0:03:10.964 but nobody knew it. So I think it was a 0:03:10.964 --> 0:03:15.804 pretty big failure of both the conventional wisdom and crediction 0:03:15.964 --> 0:03:18.604 markets right where. I guess the conclave is pretty good 0:03:18.644 --> 0:03:21.444 at keeping secrets, maybe more than like, you know, than 0:03:21.444 --> 0:03:24.924 the United States Congresses for example. There weren't a lot 0:03:24.964 --> 0:03:27.164 of leaks, and I think it reflects the kind of 0:03:27.244 --> 0:03:31.404 changing global climate toward the United States, right. You know. 0:03:31.524 --> 0:03:33.244 One of the few outlets that did it in an 0:03:33.404 --> 0:03:34.964 article about him was Axios, and they're like, well, this 0:03:34.964 --> 0:03:37.404 would never happen because the Catholic Church doesn't want to 0:03:37.444 --> 0:03:39.844 give the US government more influence, or the United States 0:03:39.884 --> 0:03:41.924 and not the government, I guess, more influence. It's like, well, 0:03:41.924 --> 0:03:43.764 what do they want to influence the United States, right, 0:03:43.764 --> 0:03:47.604 and have some counterweight to President Trump. You know what's 0:03:47.604 --> 0:03:49.964 a good counterweight, you know, probably not the Speaker of 0:03:50.004 --> 0:03:52.244 the House. Maybe the pope is like the only person 0:03:52.324 --> 0:03:56.364 who can be like on a stage as a counterweight. 0:03:56.444 --> 0:04:00.564 And you know, Greemost had had an active Twitter account too, right, 0:04:00.604 --> 0:04:03.764 He had criticized mostly through retweets, not things he wrote himself, 0:04:04.324 --> 0:04:09.244 criticized JD. Vance criticized the deportation of Kilmar Abrego Garcia 0:04:09.564 --> 0:04:13.324 Marilyn Man who was accidentally sent to an l Salador 0:04:13.404 --> 0:04:17.644 in prison. And so it's making a. 0:04:17.604 --> 0:04:21.244 Statement, Yeah, And I think that I think that we 0:04:21.364 --> 0:04:26.924 see that psychologically something happened here and also something that 0:04:27.284 --> 0:04:28.844 you and I have talked about night that you write 0:04:28.884 --> 0:04:33.484 about in terms of kind of how betting and prediction 0:04:33.564 --> 0:04:36.364 markets work. So the first part of the psychology part, 0:04:36.404 --> 0:04:40.244 I think people had kind of bad priors, right, and 0:04:40.484 --> 0:04:45.164 let kind of their biases in an historical precedent influence 0:04:45.284 --> 0:04:48.164 this a little bit too much, saying oh, you know, well, 0:04:48.604 --> 0:04:52.364 an American could never be pope and you can't have 0:04:52.404 --> 0:04:56.244 that sort of blanket statement rights, that's a bias where 0:04:56.764 --> 0:05:01.804 you are you're actually kind of anchoring yourself to a 0:05:01.924 --> 0:05:05.324 really incorrect starting point, which gets into my second point 0:05:05.324 --> 0:05:07.884 that you've written about, which is that this is not 0:05:08.044 --> 0:05:12.124 an event where we have tons of data and statistics. Right, 0:05:12.164 --> 0:05:14.844 this isn't the super Bowl that happens every single year. 0:05:15.284 --> 0:05:17.724 Like the last time that we had a papal election 0:05:17.844 --> 0:05:21.004 was what twelve years ago? And you know, there have 0:05:21.484 --> 0:05:24.644 been decades where there haven't where there hasn't been one, 0:05:24.964 --> 0:05:28.364 and the world changes and different things change, and people 0:05:28.404 --> 0:05:32.444 don't know much about what happens inside the Vatican and 0:05:32.484 --> 0:05:35.084 all of that, and yet we think, right, we're a 0:05:35.124 --> 0:05:38.284 little bit overconfident in thinking that we know more than 0:05:38.324 --> 0:05:40.724 we do and that we have more data than we do. 0:05:40.924 --> 0:05:45.604 It's always incredibly incredibly risky to make predictions based on incomplete, 0:05:45.684 --> 0:05:46.484 faulty data. 0:05:46.604 --> 0:05:50.124 Yeah, and look, prediction markets can accentuate that when people 0:05:50.124 --> 0:05:53.164 are like, well they're pretty smart, someone must do something right, 0:05:53.204 --> 0:05:56.764 and they are smart in many circumstances. Right, In general, 0:05:56.964 --> 0:06:00.804 there is in markets various kinds of a long shot bias, 0:06:00.924 --> 0:06:03.404 meaning people are actually a little bit under confident relative 0:06:03.444 --> 0:06:05.724 to the favorite usually prevailing. But if you have no 0:06:05.804 --> 0:06:09.604 information to go off, right, you know, there are what 0:06:09.684 --> 0:06:12.724 a two hundred and fifty one cardinals in the College 0:06:12.844 --> 0:06:18.244 of Cardinals. Right. You know, technically speaking, any baptized Catholic 0:06:18.324 --> 0:06:21.204 male is eligible to become pope. Right. I'm not saying 0:06:21.244 --> 0:06:22.804 you just want to spin a wheel one in two 0:06:22.884 --> 0:06:28.244 hundred and fifty one or whatever. But but you know, 0:06:28.444 --> 0:06:30.844 especially after the white smoke came out and people like, oh, 0:06:30.884 --> 0:06:33.684 now we know for sure, right, this is a case 0:06:33.724 --> 0:06:36.964 where the conditions were not in place for prediction markets 0:06:37.004 --> 0:06:38.364 to be particularly wise. 0:06:39.044 --> 0:06:42.284 Yeah, and you actually you write on the edge a 0:06:42.324 --> 0:06:46.044 little bit about how prediction markets and sports betting falters 0:06:46.084 --> 0:06:48.444 and certain events where there's dumb money as well, right, 0:06:48.484 --> 0:06:52.044 where there's a proliferation of people who don't know as 0:06:52.084 --> 0:06:54.284 much about it that some events are much easier to 0:06:54.324 --> 0:06:58.404 bet on than others, just depending on who the betters are. 0:06:58.564 --> 0:07:00.884 And I think from a psychological standpoint, you also get 0:07:00.884 --> 0:07:04.684 into these groups think echo chambers, where you start amplifying 0:07:04.804 --> 0:07:08.044 things that are already kind of front runners, et cetera, 0:07:08.124 --> 0:07:11.884 et cetera. Not for any good reason, right, but oh well, 0:07:11.884 --> 0:07:14.244 because he said so, I guess I think so. And 0:07:14.284 --> 0:07:16.604 then on and on it goes. It's like those psych 0:07:16.684 --> 0:07:19.564 studies right where there's a number of statistic that's been 0:07:19.604 --> 0:07:22.284 cited thousands of times, and then you actually try to 0:07:22.364 --> 0:07:24.764 unravel it and figure out, way, where did we get this? 0:07:24.844 --> 0:07:27.164 And you find the study from nineteen sixty four that 0:07:27.284 --> 0:07:29.644 was based on twelve people, and that's where the number 0:07:29.684 --> 0:07:31.844 came from, and you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This number 0:07:31.884 --> 0:07:35.884 that has now become gospel is actually incredibly suspect. That 0:07:35.924 --> 0:07:38.484 has happened to me so many times where I've actually 0:07:38.524 --> 0:07:40.804 tried to kind of retrace the steps of how it happens. 0:07:41.044 --> 0:07:43.444 But especially with social media and kind of the way 0:07:43.484 --> 0:07:46.684 information spreads these days, it's very easy to create those effects. 0:07:47.204 --> 0:07:49.604 And if you actually make sports bets, especially I'm betting 0:07:49.644 --> 0:07:53.324 the NBA playoffs a little bit go Nix, by the way, 0:07:54.124 --> 0:07:57.324 you'll sometimes see lines where you're like, this doesn't make 0:07:57.364 --> 0:08:00.884 any sense, right, So somebody must know something, or the 0:08:00.964 --> 0:08:05.484 market must be accounting for some psychological factor or some 0:08:05.684 --> 0:08:11.364 injury that like I'm not accounting for, right, And if 0:08:11.364 --> 0:08:13.604 that were always true, then you could say, Okay, even 0:08:13.644 --> 0:08:16.124 though my model says that Nick's have a forty percent chance, 0:08:16.604 --> 0:08:18.244 the market applug, you just have a twenty percent chance. 0:08:18.244 --> 0:08:20.004 So maybe the twenty percent actually of the good bet here, 0:08:20.044 --> 0:08:22.044 and if you're making our sports bets, you learn that 0:08:22.084 --> 0:08:24.724 it's not predictable when the market knows something and when 0:08:24.724 --> 0:08:27.604 it doesn't. Obviously, markets are tough to beat in general, 0:08:27.684 --> 0:08:29.644 but sometimes it is full of shit, right and many 0:08:29.684 --> 0:08:33.364 times it's not, And you're the one feeling embarrassed after all. 0:08:33.404 --> 0:08:36.084 Instead you say, boy, you know Vegas is so smart, 0:08:36.124 --> 0:08:37.684 but like it's not always smart? Right if it was 0:08:37.724 --> 0:08:42.404 always smart? Yeah, piggyback off it and you kind of can't. 0:08:42.804 --> 0:08:45.284 Dude, I have a question for you, what you know 0:08:45.444 --> 0:08:47.844 if if you were to say, okay, there's a skill 0:08:47.884 --> 0:08:50.204 set and maybe the answer is no to figuring out 0:08:50.244 --> 0:08:52.524 other than what we've already talked about, right events that 0:08:52.564 --> 0:08:55.524 happen frequently, versus not to figuring out, Okay, these are 0:08:55.564 --> 0:08:58.564 things that prediction markets are probably smarter on and these 0:08:58.564 --> 0:09:00.804 are where they're not right. Is there is there a 0:09:00.804 --> 0:09:03.124 way that you think about that, like how to figure 0:09:03.124 --> 0:09:05.324 out you know what, I shouldn't be listening to the 0:09:05.684 --> 0:09:08.844 experts in this particular case, I shouldn't be listening to 0:09:08.844 --> 0:09:11.164 the markets particular case, because I think that's actually a 0:09:11.204 --> 0:09:12.124 really interesting question. 0:09:12.444 --> 0:09:14.524 I mean, you've touched on some of this, right, Like, 0:09:14.684 --> 0:09:18.924 you know, question one is how much domain knowledge does 0:09:18.964 --> 0:09:21.924 the average trader have? I mean, the average person's betting 0:09:22.364 --> 0:09:25.724 on the NBA of the NFL probably knows more about 0:09:25.724 --> 0:09:28.084 the NBA and the NFL, And the average person betting 0:09:28.124 --> 0:09:30.484 at polymarket on the identity of the pope knows about 0:09:30.484 --> 0:09:32.364 the Catholic church. Frankly, I don't think the kind of 0:09:32.644 --> 0:09:35.244 church following personality type overlaps much with the you know, 0:09:35.324 --> 0:09:40.844 crypto adjacent prediction market startup betting type person Right. Next 0:09:40.924 --> 0:09:44.764 is is there are there institutional investors professional class of 0:09:44.764 --> 0:09:48.844 investors who are who are sucking up the week money 0:09:48.844 --> 0:09:50.164 to make the market balance? 0:09:50.284 --> 0:09:50.444 Right? 0:09:50.604 --> 0:09:57.044 Or you know, so for example for elections, investment banks 0:09:57.084 --> 0:10:00.724 and hedge funds and rich gamblers like all our betting 0:10:01.324 --> 0:10:04.084 serious money, there's a professional class. Certainly that's true for 0:10:05.044 --> 0:10:07.924 the Super Bowl or anything like that. Right. Again, the 0:10:07.964 --> 0:10:11.604 pope doesn't probably have action geopolitical consequences in the same way, 0:10:11.644 --> 0:10:13.964 so he probably don't have that. Right. Is it a 0:10:14.004 --> 0:10:16.484 repeated thing where people can calibrate their models? Is it 0:10:16.524 --> 0:10:21.564 even mathematically modelable by anything beyond like very naive methods? 0:10:21.644 --> 0:10:21.764 Right? 0:10:21.804 --> 0:10:23.564 And I mean, you know, models are hard for a 0:10:23.604 --> 0:10:26.604 lot of things, but that puts like some bumpers on 0:10:26.684 --> 0:10:30.284 how far unmored a prediction can get right. And so 0:10:30.324 --> 0:10:34.044 all these boxes are not checked for papal predictions, whereas 0:10:34.044 --> 0:10:36.444 they might be forbidding in the playoffs in the NBA. 0:10:36.844 --> 0:10:39.084 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And by the way, 0:10:39.124 --> 0:10:43.844 I saw someone was writing about kind of did anyone 0:10:43.844 --> 0:10:46.524 predict this? And there was one publication that actually had 0:10:46.604 --> 0:10:49.764 Robert Privost as one of the top contenders, and it 0:10:49.804 --> 0:10:52.484 was a Catholic like it was a niche Catholic publication, 0:10:52.604 --> 0:10:54.724 I don't remember which one it was. Didn't have them 0:10:54.764 --> 0:10:57.164 as the front runner, but it at least mentioned his name. 0:10:57.404 --> 0:10:59.524 You and I, by the way, didn't even mention his name. Right, 0:10:59.564 --> 0:11:01.524 he wasn't on our radar because he wasn't on the 0:11:01.604 --> 0:11:06.084 radar of any of the sources that we actually well. 0:11:06.284 --> 0:11:08.524 If anything, you think there might be a bias for 0:11:08.524 --> 0:11:10.764 we're saying, oh, there's just cogo guy might become pope, right, 0:11:10.764 --> 0:11:14.124 you think there might be more coverage and moves might be, 0:11:14.164 --> 0:11:15.684 Oh you got to short him, They're gonna, you know, 0:11:15.764 --> 0:11:18.964 not pick an American guy. But I he just kind 0:11:18.964 --> 0:11:23.404 of didn't really enter the conversation very much, except you know, 0:11:23.444 --> 0:11:25.004 I did be done a see article, you know for 0:11:25.044 --> 0:11:27.404 like a Catholic source. They kind of said, oh, it's 0:11:27.404 --> 0:11:29.924 interesting that people are betting on the pope. We're not 0:11:29.964 --> 0:11:32.124 sure how we feel about that as Catholics, but they're 0:11:32.164 --> 0:11:35.324 way over confident because nobody knows anything right and that 0:11:35.364 --> 0:11:36.204 proved to be prescient. 0:11:37.004 --> 0:11:41.284 Yeah, absolutely, all right, so so let's let's see how 0:11:41.324 --> 0:11:44.244 he ends up doing and let's see how how this 0:11:44.324 --> 0:11:45.284 all ends up going. 0:11:45.604 --> 0:11:51.884 So America is winning, Maria. Uh the Knicks are winning. 0:11:52.884 --> 0:11:56.564 Which makes it I'm doubly happy because as an ex Bostonian, 0:11:56.724 --> 0:11:59.964 I hate Boston sports fans. Really, they just suck, and 0:12:00.044 --> 0:12:03.324 so I'm i anti sweat the Celtics, and as a 0:12:03.364 --> 0:12:07.524 New Yorker, I'm pro next. So I'm just I'm deliriously happy. 0:12:07.684 --> 0:12:10.364 I'm actually interested in the outcome of these games today. 0:12:11.444 --> 0:12:14.044 But you're winning too, So tell me about, uh our 0:12:14.084 --> 0:12:17.244 telling me and the audience about this win you had 0:12:17.244 --> 0:12:17.964 in Monte Carlo. 0:12:18.764 --> 0:12:22.684 Yeah, So I just came back from EPT Monte Carlo, 0:12:22.764 --> 0:12:25.924 which is the Poker Stars signature stop on the European 0:12:26.004 --> 0:12:29.084 Poker Tour. Beautiful venuinate. I hope you come next year. 0:12:30.444 --> 0:12:33.804 But I had not been having a good trip at all. 0:12:34.764 --> 0:12:36.844 I've never cashed in the main event there. I still 0:12:36.884 --> 0:12:39.284 did not cash in the main event, ended up playing 0:12:39.284 --> 0:12:42.324 a twenty five K, did not cash in that. When 0:12:42.404 --> 0:12:45.364 you don't cash those big events, it doesn't feel good, 0:12:46.044 --> 0:12:49.964 and just was running horribly right. I kept getting two 0:12:50.004 --> 0:12:52.124 out at three out and four outed. For our non 0:12:52.644 --> 0:12:57.204 poker playing fans, that means, you know, improbable combinations of 0:12:57.244 --> 0:12:59.684 cards kept getting there against me, and so I was 0:12:59.764 --> 0:13:03.684 just very discouraged. And I ended up winning the final event, 0:13:04.524 --> 0:13:07.884 which was a really really nice way to end the trip. 0:13:08.364 --> 0:13:12.044 And the final that was actually a turbo structure, which 0:13:12.244 --> 0:13:15.644 is very different from kind of your standard tournament. It 0:13:15.724 --> 0:13:19.884 means that the blind levels aren't increasing quite quickly, and 0:13:19.924 --> 0:13:23.964 so your strategy actually has to change a little bit, because, yes, 0:13:24.044 --> 0:13:26.444 you might start with two hundred big blinds, and whereas 0:13:26.644 --> 0:13:28.484 you know, in a normal tournament you might have that 0:13:28.684 --> 0:13:33.084 for forty minutes, half an hour, an hour, whatever it is. 0:13:33.444 --> 0:13:37.684 Here like suddenly, if you don't do stuff in twenty minutes, 0:13:37.724 --> 0:13:40.084 you look and you have thirty big blinds left, right, 0:13:40.084 --> 0:13:44.124 Because the blind structure is moving so quickly. It's such 0:13:44.164 --> 0:13:47.484 a dynamic tournament, and so in situations like this, you 0:13:47.604 --> 0:13:50.164 need to be first of all, more aggressive, right. You 0:13:50.284 --> 0:13:52.364 need to play. You can't just sit around waiting for 0:13:52.404 --> 0:13:55.324 good hands, because otherwise you will blind out. This is 0:13:55.364 --> 0:13:58.284 one of those cases where doing nothing is doing something, 0:13:58.564 --> 0:14:01.364 and it's not a good thing, and you have to 0:14:01.404 --> 0:14:06.804 actually be a little bit different with the hand combinations 0:14:06.844 --> 0:14:09.964 that you choose to play because very quickly, this is 0:14:10.004 --> 0:14:12.964 not deep stacked poker, this is short stacked poker. So 0:14:13.004 --> 0:14:15.204 the value of hands changes. So you need to play 0:14:15.244 --> 0:14:19.324 high card hands much more, low suited connectors much less, 0:14:19.724 --> 0:14:23.044 because you'll get into situations where people are going to 0:14:23.044 --> 0:14:26.204 get very short, especially people who didn't play correctly right 0:14:26.244 --> 0:14:28.764 and who now find themselves with very few chips, and 0:14:28.844 --> 0:14:31.124 they're going to shove on you, which means they're going 0:14:31.124 --> 0:14:32.964 to put all their chips in the middle. And you 0:14:33.124 --> 0:14:36.244 have to know that in advance and know how you're 0:14:36.244 --> 0:14:38.684 going to respond and be in a situation where you 0:14:38.804 --> 0:14:42.044 can have a hand that can call those shoves, because 0:14:42.084 --> 0:14:44.044 otherwise you're also going to bleed chips right if you 0:14:44.124 --> 0:14:47.284 open too much and then keep folding when people are 0:14:47.284 --> 0:14:51.164 aggressive against you, and so it's a slightly different mindset, 0:14:51.484 --> 0:14:53.444 and it does require I think a lot of preparation 0:14:53.724 --> 0:14:55.804 ahead of time because you don't have much time to think. 0:14:56.284 --> 0:14:58.204 You just need to know your range as well. You 0:14:58.244 --> 0:14:59.604 need to know your cards well, you need to know 0:14:59.644 --> 0:15:02.124 your response as well. We had a ten second shot 0:15:02.164 --> 0:15:04.684 clock in this tournament, so you had ten seconds to 0:15:04.684 --> 0:15:07.644 make every single decision, no matter what street you were on. 0:15:07.924 --> 0:15:09.884 And we had a few time banks, and each of 0:15:09.884 --> 0:15:12.244 those time banks and it was ten seconds. So it's 0:15:12.284 --> 0:15:15.364 actually kind of beautiful. It's a very it's fun because 0:15:15.524 --> 0:15:19.964 it's so dynamic and so much happens, but there's also 0:15:19.964 --> 0:15:21.964 an element of luck when you get into a fast 0:15:21.964 --> 0:15:22.724 structure like that. 0:15:23.044 --> 0:15:26.884 This is a one day tournament or yes, okay, yeah, Look. 0:15:26.884 --> 0:15:28.404 The other thing that's tricky about these events I want 0:15:28.404 --> 0:15:32.164 to ask you about is like, Okay, typically if you 0:15:32.244 --> 0:15:34.404 have a big tournament series, you're toward the end of 0:15:34.444 --> 0:15:37.684 the series and you have these turbos for people that 0:15:38.124 --> 0:15:40.364 you know have busted out of the big events they're 0:15:40.364 --> 0:15:44.604 hoping to play. There's also typically a lot of tilt, right, 0:15:44.764 --> 0:15:47.324 people are trying to place very high to make up 0:15:47.364 --> 0:15:50.324 for their entry fees. Right, we're getting the plane and 0:15:50.364 --> 0:15:54.564 go home. So how do you balance that? I mean, again, 0:15:54.724 --> 0:15:56.324 I'm not saying you have tilt. You can tell us 0:15:56.324 --> 0:15:58.044 about that if you do right. I'm saying the fact 0:15:58.044 --> 0:16:04.084 that like people are maybe calling down lighter and bluffing 0:16:04.324 --> 0:16:06.124 a little bit more. At the same time, with a 0:16:06.164 --> 0:16:09.604 turbo structure, you do need to widen your rain, which 0:16:09.644 --> 0:16:12.084 is quite a bit, right, So how do you how 0:16:12.124 --> 0:16:12.844 did you manage that? 0:16:13.884 --> 0:16:16.604 Yeah, so you have to widen your ranges, but also 0:16:17.484 --> 0:16:23.364 widen them correctly, so I you know, raggedy aces go 0:16:23.564 --> 0:16:26.684 up in value, et cetera, so you need to kind 0:16:26.724 --> 0:16:31.164 of know also what hands people will be undervaluing. So 0:16:31.204 --> 0:16:34.444 I got quite lucky early on where I ended up. 0:16:34.564 --> 0:16:38.644 Someone opened and I called a pocket pair. I call it, 0:16:38.684 --> 0:16:40.604 you know, it was a pair of deuces, a tiny 0:16:40.644 --> 0:16:44.404 pocket paar and someone else called and the flop came 0:16:44.444 --> 0:16:46.364 with a deuce in it, which means that I had 0:16:46.364 --> 0:16:48.844 flopped a set. But there was also an ace, and 0:16:49.004 --> 0:16:51.684 there was one guy who was clearly very tilted. Because 0:16:51.724 --> 0:16:55.244 this for older French gentleman who just wanted chips right, 0:16:55.324 --> 0:16:58.084 he clearly just was frustrated. This was very early on 0:16:58.164 --> 0:17:00.764 in the tournament, so we still had a lot of 0:17:00.844 --> 0:17:03.844 chips and no one had busted out yet, right, like 0:17:03.884 --> 0:17:06.004 this is how early we are. I think we're level one, 0:17:06.564 --> 0:17:11.164 maybe level two. And you could tell that like he 0:17:11.324 --> 0:17:13.964 just like he had been playing every hand, like he 0:17:14.084 --> 0:17:17.484 just really wanted chips, and so he bet, I raised, 0:17:17.524 --> 0:17:22.124 he called, and anyway, he ended up losing right and 0:17:22.644 --> 0:17:24.764 busting and was the first player to bust out of 0:17:24.764 --> 0:17:26.844 the tournament to me. And he had like I don't 0:17:26.844 --> 0:17:30.244 even remember, it was like ace three off suit, right, 0:17:30.444 --> 0:17:32.444 he didn't even have a good ace. It was a 0:17:32.444 --> 0:17:35.084 shitty ace, but he just didn't believe me, and I 0:17:35.084 --> 0:17:37.644 think he was tired of people picking on him. And 0:17:37.724 --> 0:17:40.644 he was definitely tilting. And I've played with him before, 0:17:40.724 --> 0:17:42.964 like he's not that bad of a player, but it 0:17:43.004 --> 0:17:45.004 was just an awful play and he just gave me 0:17:45.044 --> 0:17:48.284 all his chips, which was a great start obviously to 0:17:48.324 --> 0:17:50.564 the to the tournament. But I think that you need 0:17:50.604 --> 0:17:54.204 to look for spots like that and be willing to 0:17:54.444 --> 0:17:58.684 kind of take full advantage of them. So like, for instance, 0:17:58.884 --> 0:18:00.764 some people would say, oh, you know, don't get greedy 0:18:00.764 --> 0:18:02.724 on the river, don't go all in because he's not 0:18:02.764 --> 0:18:05.564 gonna call I was like, no, actually he will. You know, 0:18:06.204 --> 0:18:10.924 do get greedy because in those in those spots, you're 0:18:10.924 --> 0:18:14.484 going to get lucky against people who are just done 0:18:14.644 --> 0:18:16.524 right and they don't want you to bully them. And 0:18:16.564 --> 0:18:20.484 so especially because I'm female, that dynamic is very strong. 0:18:20.524 --> 0:18:22.364 People don't want me to bully them. 0:18:23.604 --> 0:18:27.564 Yeah. Look, and to the older frenchmen out there, I'd say, 0:18:27.764 --> 0:18:30.364 you know, we understand that you're not always going to 0:18:30.364 --> 0:18:32.564 play your A game and when you're tired in a 0:18:32.564 --> 0:18:35.204 long series, even the B game can be asking a 0:18:35.204 --> 0:18:38.924 lot avoiding the f game right where you you know, look, 0:18:39.604 --> 0:18:41.244 I'll be honest, right, you know, I think I know 0:18:41.284 --> 0:18:42.764 my range is pretty well in a lot of spots, and 0:18:42.804 --> 0:18:45.724 I'll know when I can like loosen up just slightly, 0:18:45.844 --> 0:18:47.524 you know, be a little bit more aggressive. You can 0:18:47.524 --> 0:18:51.604 bluff sometimes, but like the multi street desperate call downs 0:18:52.844 --> 0:18:58.404 are like the most easy way to like literally burn money. 0:18:58.444 --> 0:19:00.844 And you know, by that stage in the in the 0:19:00.884 --> 0:19:02.644 tournament series, when it is kind of one of the 0:19:02.724 --> 0:19:05.404 last events this happened to be the last event, but 0:19:05.524 --> 0:19:07.284 when it is kind of one of the last events, 0:19:07.284 --> 0:19:09.644 people are tired and a lot of people are playing 0:19:09.644 --> 0:19:12.524 their C game their D game, and if you're one 0:19:12.564 --> 0:19:15.044 of the people who's not and who can actually take 0:19:15.044 --> 0:19:17.164 advantage of that, I think that can be a huge 0:19:17.204 --> 0:19:20.044 advantage if you're willing to be aggressive in the right 0:19:20.084 --> 0:19:22.404 spots and also don't have ego and willing to fold 0:19:22.684 --> 0:19:25.724 right in the right spots. So like be willing. I 0:19:26.044 --> 0:19:27.964 did this as well to kind of throw your cards 0:19:27.964 --> 0:19:31.364 away in a heartbeat. So I had a few very 0:19:31.364 --> 0:19:34.404 successful bluffs that got through, and then I got very 0:19:34.484 --> 0:19:37.444 lucky at the final table. When we got to the 0:19:37.444 --> 0:19:41.724 final table, I had a good amount of chips, but 0:19:41.804 --> 0:19:44.004 the chip leader, so the person with the most chips 0:19:44.084 --> 0:19:47.844 was to my immediate left, and we got into a 0:19:47.844 --> 0:19:51.244 big hand. So this was it's not good ICM. So 0:19:51.564 --> 0:19:53.604 ICM is we've talked about this on the show. It's 0:19:53.644 --> 0:19:57.004 the independent chip model. So basically, you know when they're 0:19:57.044 --> 0:19:59.884 big pay jumps and when you're down to the final table, 0:20:00.604 --> 0:20:03.124 you don't really want to tangle with the chip leader 0:20:03.124 --> 0:20:05.044 when there are lots of people who are shorter than you, 0:20:05.084 --> 0:20:09.124 because you could be committing ICM suicide. But in this 0:20:09.404 --> 0:20:12.924 particular case, someone had opened, someone else had flatted, and 0:20:13.044 --> 0:20:16.164 I had pocket jacks and like thirty big blinds something 0:20:16.204 --> 0:20:18.844 like that, and so I jammed right because there was 0:20:18.924 --> 0:20:21.924 dead money in the pot and I had you know, 0:20:22.204 --> 0:20:25.004 I had a very strong hand, and I didn't want 0:20:25.044 --> 0:20:27.444 that many people in the in the pot because pocket 0:20:27.564 --> 0:20:30.124 jacks are a strong hand. But you don't want it 0:20:30.284 --> 0:20:33.604 five way pot with pocket jacks because you know, Ace 0:20:33.724 --> 0:20:35.964 King queen. There are lots of things that can happen. 0:20:36.524 --> 0:20:40.084 And then the chip leader rejammed over me and I 0:20:40.124 --> 0:20:43.044 was like, oh no, right, that's the one person that 0:20:43.084 --> 0:20:46.684 you want to fold, and he had Ace King and 0:20:46.724 --> 0:20:49.444 I ended up holding and winning that race, and so 0:20:49.604 --> 0:20:51.884 he was still in, but that put me into the 0:20:51.964 --> 0:20:55.644 chip lead and that's huge, right that hand. 0:20:55.444 --> 0:20:57.324 You're praying for the ace King there. You're not going 0:20:57.404 --> 0:20:59.844 to see pocket tens. I don't think or anything anything. 0:20:59.884 --> 0:21:02.124 No, no, I'm praying for the ace King once he 0:21:02.404 --> 0:21:04.844 once he went all in, I was like, oh no, 0:21:05.244 --> 0:21:07.804 I am going to be out and whatever it is, 0:21:07.844 --> 0:21:13.324 you know, eighth place and I that would have been horrible, 0:21:13.404 --> 0:21:16.444 but yeah, the Ace King is the best case scenario. 0:21:16.964 --> 0:21:21.284 And luckily my handheld. So I think that that's those 0:21:21.324 --> 0:21:23.684 spots like you have to get lucky right, and I 0:21:23.804 --> 0:21:25.844 was technically a little bit ahead. But it's really a 0:21:25.884 --> 0:21:28.724 flip when you have a pocket pair against ace King. 0:21:29.484 --> 0:21:30.404 So how much did you win? 0:21:31.364 --> 0:21:33.084 So I didn't you know, it wasn't it. It wasn't 0:21:33.084 --> 0:21:37.324 a huge win. It was around twenty thousand, so not 0:21:37.444 --> 0:21:39.884 definitely not one of my you know, biggest scores, but 0:21:39.964 --> 0:21:41.404 it was a small buy in and it was a 0:21:41.484 --> 0:21:46.124 really nice way to uh to end the end the week. Well, 0:21:46.124 --> 0:21:50.404 congratulations Maria, Thank you so much, Nate, And yeah, I 0:21:50.484 --> 0:21:53.644 look forward to uh playing with you in the world 0:21:53.724 --> 0:21:55.644 series that's coming up in just a few weeks. 0:21:55.804 --> 0:21:59.644 It's shockingly soon. I mean I'm not playing until like 0:21:59.684 --> 0:22:01.244 the second or third week of the series. 0:22:01.364 --> 0:22:03.404 There am I Neither am I? But I hope that 0:22:03.444 --> 0:22:05.524 I hope that we both win all of our flips, 0:22:05.804 --> 0:22:08.324 or at least most of our flips, that we run 0:22:08.364 --> 0:22:12.444 better than music a less. Yeah, let's take a quick 0:22:12.444 --> 0:22:15.244 break and then let's talk a little bit about chat GPT. 0:22:30.484 --> 0:22:30.724 Nate. 0:22:30.924 --> 0:22:34.444 So, there was a big piece in New York magazine 0:22:34.484 --> 0:22:37.964 last week about cheating on college campuses and chat GPT, 0:22:38.444 --> 0:22:41.364 and I know that you are writing about this for 0:22:41.724 --> 0:22:45.204 your Substack Silver bulletin. So do you want to just 0:22:46.044 --> 0:22:49.204 set the scene a little bit and tell us kind 0:22:49.204 --> 0:22:50.804 of about some of the concerns here. 0:22:52.244 --> 0:22:55.644 Yeah. I mean, look, if you have any friends who 0:22:55.644 --> 0:22:57.924 are college professors of any kind, they'll probably tell you 0:22:57.964 --> 0:23:01.644 the same concerns, right, which is that, you know, a 0:23:01.764 --> 0:23:05.644 lot of classes rely on a model where students have 0:23:06.084 --> 0:23:08.044 homework they can do at home. And for a long time, 0:23:08.044 --> 0:23:09.964 obviously you can, you know, you can go on the 0:23:09.964 --> 0:23:12.604 internet and look up information that way. There have always 0:23:12.644 --> 0:23:17.044 been services that would offer to do your homework for you. 0:23:17.124 --> 0:23:21.164 Right there are you know, ancient and modern versions of 0:23:21.244 --> 0:23:24.404 cliffs notes and things like that, if you uh, you know, 0:23:24.484 --> 0:23:26.644 the line between working with a friend on a problem 0:23:26.804 --> 0:23:30.044 set and copying your friend's answers has always been blurry, 0:23:30.084 --> 0:23:33.484 I think, but like but now chat chipetem makes it 0:23:33.764 --> 0:23:40.484 very very tempting to cheat, and especially for like written essays, 0:23:40.484 --> 0:23:44.164 but also you know problem sets for economic classes and 0:23:44.204 --> 0:23:46.204 things like that, and and so yeah, I tried to 0:23:46.244 --> 0:23:50.044 actually I imagine that I had given myself an assignment. 0:23:50.404 --> 0:23:55.484 You know, the philosopher Michelle Fuco. Of course, French guy 0:23:55.844 --> 0:24:00.204 weird into s and m into lots of stuff ball 0:24:00.364 --> 0:24:03.644 you know, but like very famous philosopher. My whole mo 0:24:03.884 --> 0:24:08.244 in college was to always mention, always named up Fuco right, 0:24:08.244 --> 0:24:09.964 And every time I named up put then I would 0:24:09.964 --> 0:24:12.164 get at least an a minus on the paper. Right, 0:24:12.164 --> 0:24:15.484 But like I gave myself an assignment to compare the 0:24:15.524 --> 0:24:19.164 concept of the panopticon, which is this all seeing prison 0:24:19.204 --> 0:24:21.524 where there's like a guard tower in the center. Right, 0:24:21.684 --> 0:24:24.324 it was Bentham's idea who co wrote a lot about 0:24:24.364 --> 0:24:27.684 this is a metaphor for modern surveillance states. And to say, 0:24:27.684 --> 0:24:30.724 how does this apply to like modern day China? Right, 0:24:30.764 --> 0:24:34.524 it seems like the kind of prompt that a student 0:24:34.644 --> 0:24:37.404 might be asked in a class about China or a 0:24:37.444 --> 0:24:40.684 class about pukou or whatever else. Right, And like, you know, 0:24:40.764 --> 0:24:44.884 first of all, if you ask chat ChiPT to cheat 0:24:44.924 --> 0:24:47.644 for you, it doesn't push back at all, Right, and 0:24:47.724 --> 0:24:49.564 you can say things, can you like, please remove any 0:24:49.604 --> 0:24:52.484 traces of this is GPT, you know, please make the 0:24:52.604 --> 0:24:55.124 essay a little reugh around the margin, but have one 0:24:55.204 --> 0:24:56.644 or two good points of insight. 0:24:56.724 --> 0:24:56.884 Right. 0:24:57.004 --> 0:24:59.924 At one point in the version I eventually ended up with, Right, 0:24:59.964 --> 0:25:02.124 it's like, you know, my Chinese friend, so it made 0:25:02.244 --> 0:25:05.404 up a fake Chinese friend to testify to a point 0:25:05.724 --> 0:25:10.364 that it was making, and I have no idea da 0:25:10.804 --> 0:25:14.044 quite how detectable this would be. But you know, but 0:25:14.084 --> 0:25:16.244 the students can kind of take that as an intermediate 0:25:16.284 --> 0:25:19.084 point and then remove further traces of it. But anyway, 0:25:19.124 --> 0:25:22.324 it's it's very hard to have an assignment now that 0:25:22.404 --> 0:25:25.244 you can confidently predict was not written by chat GPD, 0:25:25.364 --> 0:25:29.604 any type of written homework assignment that's not kind of 0:25:29.644 --> 0:25:34.564 done with active supervision, and the article is very gloomy. 0:25:34.644 --> 0:25:38.324 A lot of students are pretty open about their cheating 0:25:38.324 --> 0:25:40.124 and say, hey, this is great, right now, I can 0:25:40.164 --> 0:25:42.764 save a lot of time. Right. A lot of professors 0:25:42.804 --> 0:25:45.804 are very despairing of it. Right, you know, you were 0:25:45.804 --> 0:25:48.124 in an era where because it's hard to prove, like 0:25:48.164 --> 0:25:52.204 you might be ninety percent sure that a student cheated, 0:25:52.564 --> 0:25:55.204 but ninety percent is probably not good enough to flunk 0:25:55.284 --> 0:25:58.404 similar to kick them out of college or things like that. 0:25:58.484 --> 0:26:01.564 But like I will say to me, it seems like 0:26:01.604 --> 0:26:04.724 there are some methods that you could use to prevent this, 0:26:04.884 --> 0:26:07.004 which require more work. So you know, you know, when 0:26:07.004 --> 0:26:09.004 I went, I took my junior year abroad at one 0:26:09.124 --> 0:26:12.164 school economics in the UKSES, and you just take one 0:26:12.204 --> 0:26:14.404 big exam at the end of the year and that's 0:26:14.404 --> 0:26:16.604 your whole grand and that's in person. Back then, we 0:26:16.724 --> 0:26:19.564 use notebooks. I'm sure you can use you know, iPads 0:26:19.644 --> 0:26:22.564 or something like that now, right, but that's quite hard 0:26:22.644 --> 0:26:24.324 to cheat. If you want. Students have the internet. You 0:26:24.324 --> 0:26:25.764 could say you can have the Internet, but we're monitoring 0:26:25.764 --> 0:26:28.564 you're internet access, right and so, like if you use chatchipt, 0:26:28.764 --> 0:26:32.884 we will know, right. Or you can say, okay, well 0:26:32.884 --> 0:26:35.324 we're going to have you submit a paper and I'm 0:26:35.324 --> 0:26:39.284 going to have a fifteen minute conversation with you about 0:26:39.284 --> 0:26:41.964 the paper. I imagine it'd be hard to fake your 0:26:42.124 --> 0:26:44.804 way through even like five or ten minutes if you 0:26:44.844 --> 0:26:46.844 really didn't know the subject matter at all, if you're 0:26:46.844 --> 0:26:50.404 being quizzed about your own paper, right and so, But 0:26:50.444 --> 0:26:52.204 professors don't seem to want to do it in anyway. 0:26:52.204 --> 0:26:54.764 What are your thoughts here, Maria, Yeah. 0:26:54.524 --> 0:26:57.164 Well I have I have a number of thoughts. First 0:26:57.164 --> 0:26:59.804 of all, I mean, obviously you know students have been 0:26:59.924 --> 0:27:03.204 cheating for a long time, and that you were saying 0:27:03.284 --> 0:27:05.884 ninety percent isn't enough. And I will actually go further 0:27:06.044 --> 0:27:09.004 and say one hundred percent isn't enough to fail someone 0:27:09.164 --> 0:27:13.044 off times. So when I was when I was teaching 0:27:13.844 --> 0:27:17.204 back in my grad school days, I had a student 0:27:17.924 --> 0:27:22.524 hand in a paper that just looked suspicious, and it 0:27:22.564 --> 0:27:25.284 was a word document that was kind of scrolling down 0:27:25.324 --> 0:27:28.524 and all of a sudden, my, you know, the cursor 0:27:28.644 --> 0:27:31.684 changes to kind of a you know, the way that 0:27:31.684 --> 0:27:34.724 the cursor changes when there's a hyperlink. And so he 0:27:34.844 --> 0:27:38.484 had copied and pasted directly from Wikipedia, and he had 0:27:38.524 --> 0:27:42.484 removed the visual hyperlink, but he hadn't actually removed the hyperlink, 0:27:42.644 --> 0:27:45.164 so I could actually click on the text to get 0:27:45.204 --> 0:27:48.764 to the Wikipedia article. And I was like, wow, right, 0:27:49.324 --> 0:27:52.484 like that that is uh, that is like the people 0:27:52.524 --> 0:27:56.044 who these days hand in essays that start with as 0:27:56.084 --> 0:28:01.404 an ai I And I brought this, you know, to 0:28:01.484 --> 0:28:06.084 the department and said, you know this, this kid cheated. 0:28:06.364 --> 0:28:08.004 I want to fail him. And they didn't let me 0:28:08.364 --> 0:28:11.404 because they said that, you know, there were parent issues 0:28:11.444 --> 0:28:13.124 and all these things. And I was allowed to give 0:28:13.204 --> 0:28:15.084 him a D minus, but I could not give him 0:28:15.084 --> 0:28:18.524 an F because that's not how Columbia did things. And 0:28:18.604 --> 0:28:20.484 it was very disparaiting to me. Right. It was one 0:28:20.484 --> 0:28:22.804 of the things that one of the reasons there were 0:28:22.844 --> 0:28:24.764 lots of reasons I didn't want to go into academia, 0:28:24.804 --> 0:28:26.764 but I was like, fuck this, right, like, you need 0:28:26.804 --> 0:28:29.964 to have consequences for cheating, so that it has happened 0:28:30.004 --> 0:28:33.244 for a long time and it's obviously only getting worse. 0:28:33.484 --> 0:28:37.244 But I completely agree with you, Nate, that you should 0:28:37.404 --> 0:28:41.644 change in response to this, how you grade and how 0:28:41.684 --> 0:28:45.604 you create assignments. When I went even kind of as 0:28:45.764 --> 0:28:49.924 an undergrad, we had so many in class exams right 0:28:49.924 --> 0:28:52.844 where you had to write essays in class. And then 0:28:52.844 --> 0:28:54.804 when I was a grad student, we had oral exams 0:28:55.164 --> 0:28:58.364 where you know, as part of your degree you have 0:28:58.404 --> 0:29:02.004 to pass orals where you are interviews. It's very stressful 0:29:02.004 --> 0:29:04.324 for a lot of people. Right. There are people who 0:29:04.404 --> 0:29:07.124 ask you questions. When you defend your dissertation. You have 0:29:07.164 --> 0:29:11.204 an entire committee, right who's pepper you with questions about 0:29:11.244 --> 0:29:13.964 your work and about your research. And if you're not 0:29:14.044 --> 0:29:16.084 the one who knows the data and who knows what 0:29:16.124 --> 0:29:18.484 you did, then you're going to get screwed, right, You're 0:29:18.524 --> 0:29:20.684 not going to pass. And people have failed, by the way, 0:29:20.764 --> 0:29:25.764 different dissertation defenses. People have failed oral exams. People you know, 0:29:25.844 --> 0:29:28.604 fail these types of assessments all the time, and so 0:29:28.684 --> 0:29:31.164 I think what we need if we want to actually 0:29:31.524 --> 0:29:34.004 first of all, like what's the point of higher education? 0:29:34.084 --> 0:29:37.204 I would say, you know, to create critical thinkers and 0:29:37.244 --> 0:29:41.244 people who actually are educated human beings and have well 0:29:41.324 --> 0:29:44.564 rounded who know about you know, history and all of 0:29:44.604 --> 0:29:46.964 these different things. How do you make sure that they're 0:29:47.004 --> 0:29:50.604 actually learning what? You change the You change the way 0:29:50.644 --> 0:29:53.884 that you that you have your class. You change the 0:29:53.924 --> 0:29:57.924 incentives right so that they can't cheat their way through it, 0:29:58.084 --> 0:29:59.684 because it's not going to go away. It's only going 0:29:59.764 --> 0:30:02.764 to get worse. And so you can't just pretend that 0:30:02.844 --> 0:30:05.644 it doesn't happen. And you can't rely on cheating detection 0:30:05.804 --> 0:30:08.644 software because it doesn't matter anyway. Instead, you need to 0:30:08.724 --> 0:30:13.364 kind of create an environment where your students learn and 0:30:13.404 --> 0:30:15.844 I would say, you know, are motivated to learn, right, 0:30:16.004 --> 0:30:19.244 So make it worth their while, like make them understand 0:30:19.284 --> 0:30:22.804 why this is important. One of the students, Nay, in 0:30:22.844 --> 0:30:26.124 that New York magpiece. He first he got into Harvard, 0:30:26.164 --> 0:30:28.884 then he said they rescinded his admission and he ended 0:30:28.964 --> 0:30:33.044 up transferring to Columbia and was kicked out within a 0:30:33.124 --> 0:30:36.684 year because he cheated on everything and he openly admitted 0:30:36.724 --> 0:30:41.044 it and created cheating software and said, well, I don't care, Like, 0:30:41.844 --> 0:30:43.924 I don't care about actually any of this. The only 0:30:43.964 --> 0:30:45.364 reason I want to go to a good school is 0:30:45.404 --> 0:30:47.364 to meet my future spouse and co founder. 0:30:48.444 --> 0:30:52.164 Yeah, look, I mean students learn from well, anyone learns from, 0:30:52.204 --> 0:30:54.724 like to Terrence, right that if you do see a 0:30:54.764 --> 0:30:57.884 student who was kicked out of college for cheating, then 0:30:58.084 --> 0:31:00.964 as going to have a much bigger deterrent effect. Right, 0:31:01.004 --> 0:31:02.764 But like, yeah, look, I mean I was going to say, 0:31:03.364 --> 0:31:06.124 you know, is the purpose of higher education really learning? 0:31:06.164 --> 0:31:10.204 Because you can obviously take a much more cynical approach, right, 0:31:10.204 --> 0:31:14.084 which is that it's a factory to produce degrees and 0:31:14.164 --> 0:31:17.084 to kind of, you know, make a lot of money 0:31:17.164 --> 0:31:20.684 running these very expensive institutions that have now very large 0:31:20.804 --> 0:31:24.324 non academic stabs. A lot of the time that the 0:31:24.404 --> 0:31:28.044 kids are coddle, that there is a ton of great inflation, 0:31:29.324 --> 0:31:33.484 that during the pandemic, that colleges were so concerned about 0:31:33.524 --> 0:31:37.244 angering highly neurotic moms and dads and maybe professors to 0:31:37.244 --> 0:31:41.684 some extent, right, and so they're totally undermining the educational experience, right, 0:31:41.724 --> 0:31:44.604 But like, it doesn't stop the factory from like churning 0:31:44.604 --> 0:31:47.404 out degrees, even if classes are easier and easier to gain, 0:31:47.524 --> 0:31:50.444 and so, yeah, I don't know. I also think that 0:31:50.564 --> 0:31:53.844 like you wind up with students in a kind of 0:31:54.044 --> 0:31:57.964 prisoner's dilemma type situation where it's a really pretty rational 0:31:58.084 --> 0:32:02.084 to cheat if everyone else is cheating and it can't 0:32:02.124 --> 0:32:04.444 really be detected. And by the way, like I think that, 0:32:04.604 --> 0:32:07.084 you know, when I write essays for Silver Bulletin, then 0:32:07.244 --> 0:32:11.844 I ask chech GPT question, right, I will run my 0:32:11.924 --> 0:32:13.604 copy through j just P and say do you correct 0:32:13.604 --> 0:32:18.284 any typos or errors? Right? And things like that. Right, 0:32:18.764 --> 0:32:20.684 Sometimes it all flag errors that are fake because I 0:32:20.684 --> 0:32:23.644 can't believe how dumb things are. It's like we can't 0:32:23.644 --> 0:32:25.924 really have one hundred and third percent tariff on China, right. 0:32:25.964 --> 0:32:29.244 People might take that exaggeration seriously, Nate, So you have 0:32:29.284 --> 0:32:31.044 to remove that from your estley. I'm like, no, things 0:32:31.044 --> 0:32:34.764 are really that dumb. But like so and working with 0:32:34.884 --> 0:32:36.764 AI is important. I mean, it's kind of intrude to 0:32:36.804 --> 0:32:40.324 I mean, I'll stay that like interpersonal skills become more 0:32:41.044 --> 0:32:44.244 important in a world where CHECHPD do is kind of 0:32:44.244 --> 0:32:48.804 like the cognitive tasks easier. It's probably more about sales, right, 0:32:48.804 --> 0:32:50.524 who are you going to hire to be the nice 0:32:50.564 --> 0:32:52.364 person to brought you the services that you could probably 0:32:52.404 --> 0:32:55.604 do yourself with chet GPT, your group assignments and things. 0:32:55.764 --> 0:32:59.364 People feel charmed by humans. So but yeah, I think 0:32:59.364 --> 0:33:02.924 colleges are on the way to being less relevant and 0:33:02.964 --> 0:33:06.404 that they seem not to have particularly much urgency for 0:33:06.684 --> 0:33:09.724 This is kind of lame. But like I said, if 0:33:09.804 --> 0:33:11.644 you were a student, would you use chet cheapet if 0:33:11.684 --> 0:33:13.284 you Let's say you let me set this up for you. Right, 0:33:13.844 --> 0:33:15.844 Let's say you know for a fact that eighty percent 0:33:15.844 --> 0:33:19.484 of the students in your class are using chat cheapt. 0:33:19.564 --> 0:33:21.724 I'm trying to make a sympathetic set of facts. Right, 0:33:22.444 --> 0:33:26.444 Let's say you don't think the class is well taught, 0:33:26.604 --> 0:33:30.124 and so you don't think you're really getting that much 0:33:30.444 --> 0:33:32.404 out of it. Let's even say that you kind of 0:33:32.444 --> 0:33:36.364 done half the reading and so you're kind of using 0:33:36.444 --> 0:33:39.924 cheapt chechpeeding way. It's like clearly over the line, but 0:33:39.964 --> 0:33:43.644 you're adding some original inputs and insight yourself. But it 0:33:43.684 --> 0:33:46.764 goes against the nominal recommendations of the professor. Would you 0:33:46.884 --> 0:33:49.044 cheat in that circumstance or use chec ChiPT or not? 0:33:50.684 --> 0:33:53.604 I would like to think no, because I never I 0:33:53.684 --> 0:33:57.404 was someone who could have always took that pretty seriously. 0:33:58.044 --> 0:34:01.724 And for me, like my incentives were like most of 0:34:01.724 --> 0:34:04.284 my classes I was really interested in, Like I wanted 0:34:04.324 --> 0:34:06.684 to learn, right, Like I went to a school that 0:34:06.804 --> 0:34:10.124 I thought would teach me things that I realized. You know, 0:34:10.164 --> 0:34:14.124 I sound like a very you know, uh do ie 0:34:14.684 --> 0:34:18.284 bushy tailed student, but like to me, that was that 0:34:18.404 --> 0:34:21.044 was the whole point. Like I wanted to read these books. 0:34:21.364 --> 0:34:24.124 I want to think through you know, I wanted to 0:34:24.204 --> 0:34:28.204 be kind of a better, you know, a better person, 0:34:29.004 --> 0:34:33.724 someone who who has that knowledge, you know. I wanted 0:34:33.764 --> 0:34:36.004 to kind of have it in my head, like if 0:34:36.004 --> 0:34:39.324 you're on a desert island right with no CHATPT and 0:34:39.364 --> 0:34:41.604 you just have kind of the stuff that's in your head. 0:34:42.084 --> 0:34:46.204 I wanted to kind of have good things in there. 0:34:46.284 --> 0:34:49.364 And so I never I mean I never even like 0:34:49.724 --> 0:34:52.004 gray Zone cheated when I was in college, Like I 0:34:52.044 --> 0:34:56.204 didn't collaborate on assignments. I didn't do anything like that. 0:34:56.204 --> 0:34:59.084 That said, like I never told on anyone either, right, 0:34:59.244 --> 0:35:02.444 Like I was not someone who would be like Nate 0:35:02.564 --> 0:35:05.964 use chat GPT, right, Like, if you want to use 0:35:06.044 --> 0:35:08.884 chat rept, fine, but even if everyone was using it, 0:35:08.924 --> 0:35:14.004 like I I think I wouldn't I wouldn't feel right 0:35:14.204 --> 0:35:18.124 about myself if the teacher actually said, do not use 0:35:18.284 --> 0:35:21.244 chat GPT. And like I said, for most of the 0:35:21.284 --> 0:35:23.844 classes I took, a huge chunk of the grade was 0:35:23.964 --> 0:35:29.004 in class, in class, exams and assignments, and so that 0:35:29.164 --> 0:35:31.804 was something where you know, chat GPT wouldn't be helpful. 0:35:32.004 --> 0:35:34.244 But I also I wanted to be a writer, Nate, like, 0:35:34.644 --> 0:35:36.724 I wanted to learn how to write well, and I 0:35:36.804 --> 0:35:38.924 wanted one of the reasons that I wanted to go 0:35:38.964 --> 0:35:41.364 to Harvard was to study with very specific writers. I 0:35:41.404 --> 0:35:44.804 wanted their feedback on my writing. It would just completely 0:35:44.844 --> 0:35:47.364 defeat the purpose, right if I took a fiction writing 0:35:47.404 --> 0:35:50.484 seminar and had chat GPT write my short story, Like, 0:35:51.124 --> 0:35:53.004 what am I even doing? Well? 0:35:53.004 --> 0:35:55.004 What if you sound stupid? What if it's a let's 0:35:55.044 --> 0:35:59.204 say that you're taking a physics class and it's part 0:35:59.244 --> 0:36:01.604 of a requirement for some hard sciences, right, and the 0:36:01.644 --> 0:36:07.964 professor is unintelligible and boring, and these assignments are unnecessarily 0:36:08.804 --> 0:36:12.644 hard for students who are not going into the science concentration. Right. 0:36:14.084 --> 0:36:17.244 Yeah, So I think that I can see using chat 0:36:17.244 --> 0:36:20.684 GPT to help me explain to help explain stuff, right, 0:36:21.084 --> 0:36:24.444 use other aids outside of class to try to get 0:36:24.644 --> 0:36:27.044 to try to get oriented and try to figure it out. 0:36:27.364 --> 0:36:29.964 But I would still, I think, do my own final 0:36:30.004 --> 0:36:32.604 assignment in the end, like there was one class. This 0:36:32.764 --> 0:36:36.604 is one of my biggest regrets, and so I don't 0:36:36.604 --> 0:36:38.844 want students to have regrets like this. One of my 0:36:38.884 --> 0:36:43.844 biggest regrets from undergrad was I took this course AX ten, 0:36:43.964 --> 0:36:48.004 which was you know, your introductory economics class my senior year, 0:36:48.044 --> 0:36:50.964 because I needed it as a requirement, and I took 0:36:50.964 --> 0:36:55.444 a pass fail because I could write and I didn't. 0:36:55.524 --> 0:36:57.284 At that point, I thought that I didn't really care 0:36:57.284 --> 0:37:00.364 about economics, want to know any of this. And it 0:37:00.404 --> 0:37:01.964 was really early in the morning. I think it was 0:37:02.004 --> 0:37:04.764 like at nine am or something, you know, a time 0:37:04.804 --> 0:37:07.524 that was just ungodly for me even today, but as 0:37:07.564 --> 0:37:10.684 a college student like, no, no way, And so I 0:37:10.764 --> 0:37:14.484 ended up skipping a ton of lectures and almost fail 0:37:14.564 --> 0:37:17.324 the class. I really regret that because, first of all, 0:37:17.404 --> 0:37:22.164 the class was taught by legendary professor, and the speakers 0:37:22.204 --> 0:37:25.124 we had in that class were insane, right, We had 0:37:25.204 --> 0:37:28.204 like secretaries of State, We had the things that I 0:37:28.364 --> 0:37:31.164 missed right now, when I look at our syllabus, I'm like, 0:37:31.724 --> 0:37:32.484 what an idiot? 0:37:32.604 --> 0:37:32.764 Right? 0:37:32.804 --> 0:37:35.924 I wish I could go back in time and actually 0:37:36.404 --> 0:37:39.924 learn this information. So the one time where like I 0:37:40.004 --> 0:37:43.524 obviously wasn't cheating or using chat gibta, I almost failed, 0:37:43.524 --> 0:37:45.564 for God's sake, the one time I tried to like 0:37:45.964 --> 0:37:48.044 glide through a class because I didn't think it was 0:37:48.044 --> 0:37:52.284 irrelevant or interesting. I really really regret it because I 0:37:52.324 --> 0:37:55.364 realized now just how relevant and interesting it was and 0:37:55.404 --> 0:37:58.444 how much I missed. So kind of looking back at 0:37:58.524 --> 0:38:01.044 college me, I want to shake myself and say, hey, 0:38:01.444 --> 0:38:03.804 you know, take advantage of this. There is not going 0:38:03.844 --> 0:38:06.644 to be another time where you get like an hour 0:38:07.164 --> 0:38:09.364 one on one with Larry Summers to ask him quite 0:38:09.724 --> 0:38:11.684 about the economy. 0:38:11.724 --> 0:38:14.724 You know. I asked my Twitter followers did they cheat 0:38:14.764 --> 0:38:18.004 even a little tiny bit in college? And it was 0:38:18.044 --> 0:38:22.724 almost exactly fifty fifty yes and no, which means on 0:38:22.764 --> 0:38:26.564 the show, if you are avowing Maria never to have 0:38:26.764 --> 0:38:31.524 even a tiny bit cheated, does that imply that I 0:38:31.604 --> 0:38:32.644 therefore did cheat. 0:38:34.684 --> 0:38:37.004 I wouldn't. I wouldn't say that. I would say that 0:38:37.084 --> 0:38:38.004 you probably did not. 0:38:38.764 --> 0:38:41.324 I think I did. I think this counts. So I 0:38:42.684 --> 0:38:47.844 was in an econometrics class, and ironically, econometrics is like 0:38:47.884 --> 0:38:50.524 actually pretty relevant to my day to day work now, right, 0:38:50.964 --> 0:38:55.444 But the class was taught terribly. The professor was a 0:38:55.444 --> 0:38:58.724 good scholar who was very disengaged in University of Chicago 0:38:59.004 --> 0:39:02.964 was maybe more tolerant of that than they should have been, right, 0:39:03.044 --> 0:39:05.204 and you know, my very good friend, I mean, I would, 0:39:05.324 --> 0:39:08.324 you know, ask to copy off a couple of those 0:39:08.364 --> 0:39:11.564 problem sets with his mission sometimes? Right, that's cheating, isn't it, 0:39:12.364 --> 0:39:14.604 I think, Solia, Yeah, it's funny because like if you're 0:39:14.604 --> 0:39:17.004 doing the homework together, it's probably not. But like I 0:39:17.004 --> 0:39:19.204 think it's cheating. And I don't regret it because the 0:39:19.204 --> 0:39:23.924 class sucked and and still most of the grades based on 0:39:23.924 --> 0:39:26.204 on the end of the year, right you still, I mean, 0:39:26.284 --> 0:39:29.324 you know, so if I fucked myself over, then that's fine, 0:39:29.364 --> 0:39:31.564 But I don't I think that was a rational decision. 0:39:32.204 --> 0:39:34.004 You know what, now that you say that, I realized 0:39:34.044 --> 0:39:35.284 that I did cheat. 0:39:35.564 --> 0:39:36.044 There you go. 0:39:36.164 --> 0:39:39.964 If in school, so when I was in eighth grade, 0:39:40.684 --> 0:39:46.404 I had this science teacher who liked to basically we 0:39:46.444 --> 0:39:49.444 had our science curriculum and then he also taught birds 0:39:49.524 --> 0:39:53.724 and stars, so basically we would get pop quizzes all 0:39:53.724 --> 0:39:56.604 the time where he would play bird calls and we'd 0:39:56.644 --> 0:39:59.444 have to say what bird it was. However, as part 0:39:59.564 --> 0:40:03.724 of the bird stuff, he would give us these basically 0:40:03.804 --> 0:40:08.804 you know, like coloring book sketches of birds, and we 0:40:09.044 --> 0:40:12.924 had color them in for homework and we were graded 0:40:13.124 --> 0:40:15.644 on how well we colored them in. And I was like, 0:40:15.764 --> 0:40:19.524 this is bullshit. I have zero artistic ability, like I 0:40:19.564 --> 0:40:22.684 hate you know, I can't draw, stick figure, I can't color. 0:40:22.844 --> 0:40:25.124 I was like, this has nothing to do with science, right, 0:40:25.164 --> 0:40:27.324 this has nothing to do with what I'm learning. This 0:40:27.404 --> 0:40:30.244 is insane. And my sister is a beautiful artist. So 0:40:30.844 --> 0:40:34.324 she actually, first of all, I had she had taken 0:40:34.324 --> 0:40:36.684 the class, you know, six years before I did, so 0:40:36.724 --> 0:40:39.564 she gave me her birds to like help me figure 0:40:39.564 --> 0:40:41.684 out how to how to color them in, and then 0:40:41.724 --> 0:40:43.684 when she had time, she would color them for me. 0:40:44.004 --> 0:40:46.404 And then I had another friend who was who loved drawing, 0:40:46.684 --> 0:40:48.724 and she would color my birds for me. And I 0:40:48.764 --> 0:40:52.604 hardly ever did my bird coloring in myself because I 0:40:52.644 --> 0:40:53.364 just thought it was the. 0:40:53.324 --> 0:40:55.724 Most too cheaters mister business here. 0:40:56.204 --> 0:40:58.524 So now that you now that I think about it, 0:40:58.924 --> 0:41:03.044 that was that was definitely problem not above board, but 0:41:03.164 --> 0:41:05.724 it was just because I made the decision that this 0:41:05.844 --> 0:41:08.324 was an incredibly bad use of my time. And I 0:41:08.364 --> 0:41:10.644 stand by that just like thank you. I have no regrets. 0:41:10.964 --> 0:41:13.564 I do not care that I don't know how to 0:41:14.884 --> 0:41:19.844 color in a downy woodpecker or whatever. It was toughted mouse. 0:41:22.324 --> 0:41:36.884 And we'll be right back after this break. I mean, 0:41:36.924 --> 0:41:42.284 there's an argument against assigned homework in general, and do 0:41:42.324 --> 0:41:44.684 the readings you can participate in class right and or 0:41:44.764 --> 0:41:47.324 past your final at the end of the year. Right. 0:41:47.444 --> 0:41:51.524 Yeah, I'm actually I'm actually very sympathetic to the no 0:41:51.684 --> 0:41:56.324 homework type of thing because you know, if you, I 0:41:56.364 --> 0:42:01.564 think homework often incentivizes cheating, right when people feel like 0:42:01.564 --> 0:42:03.924 like the homework assignment is stupid or dumb, or you 0:42:03.964 --> 0:42:06.484 have too much of it, like there the incentives for 0:42:07.004 --> 0:42:11.444 homework are not often the correct incentives. And when you 0:42:11.484 --> 0:42:13.804 have those exams so I had, I took a lot 0:42:13.804 --> 0:42:16.924 of seminars where class participation was a huge part in it, right, 0:42:17.004 --> 0:42:19.044 and if you are one of the people who did 0:42:19.044 --> 0:42:21.444 not do the reading that week, it becomes very clear 0:42:22.564 --> 0:42:26.684 pretty or pretty soon in the discussion that, like you, 0:42:27.124 --> 0:42:30.764 you are not adding much value and that like this 0:42:30.964 --> 0:42:34.564 was just this is a week that you were mentally 0:42:34.604 --> 0:42:37.284 not there. And if the purpose of learning is to 0:42:37.364 --> 0:42:42.724 create individuals who have deeper knowledge, critical thinking abilities, kind 0:42:42.724 --> 0:42:48.244 of the ability to synthesize information, to analyze information, the 0:42:48.284 --> 0:42:52.364 types of skills that we want right in our citizens, 0:42:52.404 --> 0:42:56.404 I would hope then homework assignments are much worse at 0:42:56.444 --> 0:42:58.884 assessing those than your ability to kind of have a 0:42:58.884 --> 0:43:02.124 class discussion, your ability to kind of think through things 0:43:02.204 --> 0:43:04.444 and reason through things. So I think that we need 0:43:04.484 --> 0:43:07.084 to figure out how do you kind of create an 0:43:07.204 --> 0:43:11.164 education system that incentivizes the sorts of thinking and behaviors 0:43:11.524 --> 0:43:13.564 that you want your students to emerge with. 0:43:13.964 --> 0:43:16.804 Yeah, look, I think you know maybe as solicials, you 0:43:16.804 --> 0:43:21.684 actually need more actual classroom hours. Right. I had a 0:43:21.684 --> 0:43:24.924 friend who used to work at Amazon, and the culture 0:43:24.964 --> 0:43:27.244 there is that if there's a meeting where there's a 0:43:27.284 --> 0:43:31.404 briefing to read, right, they assume that you did not 0:43:31.764 --> 0:43:34.284 take the time out to read that briefing, right, So like, 0:43:34.564 --> 0:43:37.004 take twelve minutes now and read this briefing and then 0:43:37.004 --> 0:43:38.364 we'll talk about it, right, And it's like kind of 0:43:38.404 --> 0:43:40.364 a part of the meeting, you know, obviously, like I'm 0:43:40.364 --> 0:43:43.764 a big fan of reading in general, but maybe it 0:43:43.764 --> 0:43:45.364 doesn't have to be as Zidak to like prove that 0:43:45.404 --> 0:43:47.004 you read this, Like no, I mean, look, can you 0:43:47.004 --> 0:43:49.924 hold intelligent discussion in class? And then I don't know. 0:43:50.004 --> 0:43:52.004 People always talk about the EDU cases of students who 0:43:52.044 --> 0:43:56.564 are introverted or neurodiversient or English is a second language, 0:43:56.604 --> 0:43:59.804 and yeah, it sucks, but life isn't always fairer, you 0:43:59.844 --> 0:44:04.364 know what I mean? And if colleges become less effective 0:44:04.404 --> 0:44:09.164 at differentiating which students were more effective and when we're 0:44:09.164 --> 0:44:10.844 on it, I mean, you know, then the whole signal 0:44:10.844 --> 0:44:14.764 becomes less valuable and college degrees become worth less, particularly 0:44:14.844 --> 0:44:17.844 the most elite degrees. Right, all of a sudden's just 0:44:17.884 --> 0:44:21.004 now basically like a signal that four years ago you 0:44:21.004 --> 0:44:25.044 were considered a talented student by an emissions committee. Right, yep, 0:44:25.244 --> 0:44:26.324 I completely agree with you. 0:44:26.644 --> 0:44:29.284 I think that this is a very very urgent question 0:44:29.844 --> 0:44:32.124 and one that has huge implications for the future of 0:44:32.164 --> 0:44:35.204 our society, right, because what kind of adults are we 0:44:35.244 --> 0:44:38.564 creating with? What kinds of skills, what kinds of ability, 0:44:38.844 --> 0:44:42.924 what kinds of actual background and knowledge? I think these 0:44:42.964 --> 0:44:45.964 are really important questions we do not want to be 0:44:46.004 --> 0:44:49.964 creating a functionally illiterate society, which is what's going to happen. 0:44:50.004 --> 0:44:53.004 By the way, if you don't actually do any learning 0:44:53.124 --> 0:44:56.764 and instead outsource everything all the time and using. 0:44:56.564 --> 0:44:59.604 Chat, GPT or other LM's other AI tools, well, is 0:44:59.644 --> 0:45:02.244 actually a pretty important life skill. I can imagine some 0:45:02.284 --> 0:45:06.204 assignments where and say yes, we not only you know, allow, 0:45:06.404 --> 0:45:09.324 but maybe encourage you for this particular assignment to do 0:45:09.524 --> 0:45:11.244 this right. And so I mean the other irony I 0:45:11.244 --> 0:45:13.364 think this is becoming true and more and more domains 0:45:13.404 --> 0:45:16.404 evolving AI is that like, if you are pretty smart, 0:45:17.004 --> 0:45:19.644 then your productivity is enhanced by the AI, Whereas if 0:45:19.644 --> 0:45:22.244 you don't know what you're doing then and maybe you 0:45:22.284 --> 0:45:24.404 can kind of fake your way through it up to 0:45:24.484 --> 0:45:27.324 a point, but you may be more fooled by the hallucinations, 0:45:27.484 --> 0:45:30.764 You may be susceptible to misinformation, you may just not 0:45:30.804 --> 0:45:32.604 have any retention for the things that you're having it 0:45:32.684 --> 0:45:35.284 do right. And so, like, you know, if I were 0:45:35.364 --> 0:45:38.324 using chat schipt to write a paper or I could 0:45:39.484 --> 0:45:40.724 I don't know. I think I can write better than 0:45:40.764 --> 0:45:42.644 chet chip Bet by a long shot still, but like, 0:45:42.764 --> 0:45:44.404 but I could figure out ways if I were allowed 0:45:44.444 --> 0:45:47.324 to that to make my work to summarize long reading 0:45:47.484 --> 0:45:52.684 like that seems like a potentially legitimate use for a student. Right, 0:45:53.044 --> 0:45:55.924 here's this very long reading that you have to pay 0:45:56.004 --> 0:45:59.564 way too much for the fucking textbook anyway, Right, can 0:45:59.644 --> 0:46:04.044 you extract the important parts from this? And guess what 0:46:04.044 --> 0:46:05.644 you can do if you're Chinese, Nat, and now you 0:46:05.684 --> 0:46:08.804 can have it translate to Chinese. Right, you can up 0:46:08.884 --> 0:46:12.524 and down the world level of complexity. Right, you can 0:46:12.564 --> 0:46:15.364 say this point might seem obvious to you. Can you 0:46:15.404 --> 0:46:18.204 explain this point another way? Right? So, like, you know, 0:46:18.364 --> 0:46:21.404 there are a lot of ways that llm's II tools 0:46:21.444 --> 0:46:23.644 could be quite helpful for the educational process. But I 0:46:23.684 --> 0:46:26.884 just think academia is moving too slow. You know, the 0:46:26.884 --> 0:46:30.444 opportunity costs of four years in college given how the 0:46:30.444 --> 0:46:32.484 world is changing. I mean, there's a cohort of students 0:46:32.524 --> 0:46:33.964 for which it might not be the right decision. 0:46:34.844 --> 0:46:37.204 I completely agree with that, and I do think that 0:46:37.244 --> 0:46:40.964 academia needs to just wake up to what's happening and 0:46:41.244 --> 0:46:49.244 figure out how to stay relevant. Risky Business is hosted 0:46:49.284 --> 0:46:51.644 by me Maria Kanakova. 0:46:50.964 --> 0:46:53.324 And by me Nate Silver. The show is a co 0:46:53.404 --> 0:46:57.484 production of Pushkin Industries, and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced 0:46:57.524 --> 0:47:01.284 by Isabelle Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya Gerwitz. Sally 0:47:01.324 --> 0:47:04.324 Helm is our editor, and our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. 0:47:04.844 --> 0:47:06.044 Mixing by Sarah Bruger. 0:47:06.444 --> 0:47:08.844 If you like the show, please rate and review us 0:47:08.844 --> 0:47:11.204 to other people can find us too. Thanks so much 0:47:11.244 --> 0:47:11.764 for tuning in.