WEBVTT - Tony Visconti 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:13.160 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob West's podcast. My 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:17.720 guest today is the one and only Tony Visconti, record 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:22.400 producer extraordinary. So Tony, how do you produce a record? 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:25.360 Well, I'm the guy in charge of everything. I found 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:29.560 that out very early on. If anything goes rom I'm 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:33.080 to blame. So I have to do a lot of 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:36.680 planning before the group and myself actually sets foot in 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.920 the studio, which would require pre production, which means you 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:45.240 visit the band in their favorite space and you rehearse 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:49.360 the songs and learn the songs. And then when I 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:51.960 get into the studio, I have to be both a 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:57.280 technician and a creative director. I think I qualify for 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:01.960 the latter because I studied music I was like fifteen 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.840 years old, and I play several instruments. I write orchestrations, 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.720 and I understand how harmony and theory works. And I 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.160 also understand rock and roll people too, because I'm one myself. 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:13.840 I guess. 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:21.479 Okay. So generally speaking, do people find you or are 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:23.120 you looking for opportunities? 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:26.839 It comes from all different directions. I have a really 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:32.200 good manager who finds people for me and people contact him, 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.640 but just recently, I was in Hamburg, Germany for the 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:39.680 Ripabond Festival. It's like south By Southwest over there, and 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:43.400 I saw a group called Daisy the Great two front 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:48.040 female singers, and I thought they were fantastic. They played 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:52.160 in the RIPA band and I found that they were 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:56.200 from New York. They live in Brooklyn, So just yesterday 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:58.960 I made my first record with them. So that was 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.960 a direct face used to face contact with a group. 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:05.440 Okay, you know, the world is totally different from when 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.679 you began your career. So if you're dealing with these 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:13.680 two women, A do they have a record company? 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.880 You know, they have an indie label, which could mean anything. 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:22.320 It's you know, I don't know what capital that label 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:25.320 has or anything, but I'm always attracted to the music. 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:28.760 It's that's where Mahart is. I love these girls. The 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:31.480 music really got to me when I was in Hamburg 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:35.560 and we had a writing session that started two days ago. 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.079 The one of the girls came in with her guitar 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:42.480 and just played about three chords and within an hour 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:45.520 we had the structure of a song, the melodic and 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:49.239 chord structure of a song, and then we chipped away 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:51.200 at it for the past two days, so now I've 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:55.600 actually recorded an entire song with them. It's just amazing 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:56.200 how it works. 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:00.640 So in this today's world, you can record the equipment 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:06.040 just to get basics down is much cheaper ie digital computer, 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:09.760 but it still requires a certain amount of money. So 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:12.440 in the old days you might have hundreds of thousands 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:16.040 of dollars to make a record, whereas today frequently, even 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:21.280 with acts that are well known, the budget's constricted relatively low. 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.200 So an act like this, how much is the budget 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:25.240 and how do you make it work? 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:28.520 I would say, if I was going to make an 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:32.720 album with them, we have some nice studios in Brooklyn 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:37.560 and Manhattan where I live, where you can get them 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:40.040 for about five hundred dollars a day. And I would 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:44.320 only need, say, two weeks in a proper studio like that, 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.520 just to record the drums. In my little place I've 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:51.040 got here, I'm sitting in the twentieth Street in Manhattan. 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:57.600 I could record vocals, guitars, saxophones, bass guitars, but not drums. 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:02.240 It's just no space that big. So it really I 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.120 make these albums more economical by having my own facility. 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:08.880 So what do we say, like twenty grand at the minimum, 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:13.200 I would say that, Yeah, okay, So you know you 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:15.920 talk about getting drums right, and certainly in the pre 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:18.080 internet era that was a big thing. In the big 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:22.280 studio could certainly take days just to get the sound right. 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:28.400 Many people today listen via earbuds. The goal in the 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:31.280 seventies was to have the biggest stereo you could possibly 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:34.840 have to get closer to the music, and now it's 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:38.080 kind of the opposite. So how do you feel about 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:43.320 this making records? Well, you know, I've got the Apple 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:49.120 EarPods and they sound really great. They have the high 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:52.040 end ones. You could hear a lot of low end 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:54.240 on it. You could hear the width of a big 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:57.640 stereo production. But you know a lot of kids can 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.200 only afford like cheap and nasty things with on them. Still, 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:05.760 you know, they're not Bluetooth, so I have to listen 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.520 to what I do on everything. I've got these big 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:12.599 expensive speakers in my studio. I've got smaller ones at home, 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.599 and I've got to hear the Apple buds and somewhere 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.400 you can make a mix that's going to sound great 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:21.880 on everything. In fact, that's the wholemark of a good mix. 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.279 It should sound great on everything. It might not sound 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:27.320 the same, but it has to sound great. 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.000 What are the speakers you listen to? What are the 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.160 brand names? I have. 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:38.320 A pair of genial X. I don't know. I think 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.919 they I think they're German or Swiss or something like that. 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:42.960 Actually they're Finish. I have upset myself. 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:47.680 There go finish right. And I've got a pair of 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:52.640 a bigger pair of Monetors from Barefoot. It's a company 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:57.120 that I think is in Washington State and they make phenomenal, 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.520 phenomenal speakers. That's what I listen to mainly. 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:08.440 And in terms of recording equipment, in terms of a board, 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:10.440 pro tools, how do you do it? 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:16.320 I'm in pro tools almost exclusively. I have no board anymore. 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:19.080 There's no need for it because I don't record drums. 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:25.320 But I've got preamplifiers for and I've got an amazing 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:30.800 set of microphones and so one two three phone. I 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:33.960 have about ten preamps, which means I could record up 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:38.000 to about one of them's got four inputs, so about 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:41.400 fourteen microphones at the same time. But there's no need 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:46.080 for a board anymore, not for my purposes since for. 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:50.880 This deep how big is your monitor and how many monitors? 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:53.400 How big is my Oh? What I'm looking at you 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:53.919 on now? 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:55.840 No, I'm talking about when you're recording, you get your 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.839 pro tools rig it's on a computer, but you're watching 0:06:58.880 --> 0:06:59.360 a screen. 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:01.360 Yeah, I'm watching a screen. 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.560 And is it one screen? Is it twenty inches thirty inches? 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:05.960 You know? 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:10.040 No, I've got two twenty six inch screens and I 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:14.320 stacked them one above the other really, yes, side by side, 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:16.920 because it gives me more room for my speakers. And 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:19.880 you know a lot of studios have their screens off 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.720 to the right, and that means you spend half the 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.960 session listening in your left ear. It's a ridiculous setup. 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:28.880 So I put my screens on top of each other. 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.080 They don't take up much space, and I have my 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.920 when i'm mixing. When I'm working, I'm always in between 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.760 the two speakers, always at all times. 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:43.040 Okay, Now, you know, once the union era ended in 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:48.520 the sixties, there were record producers and engineers. Everybody was 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:51.080 independent except for a few people like a Warner Brothers. 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:56.560 Then we hit an era where the engineers became producer. Personally, 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:59.600 I found a lot of those people, although they had success, 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:04.360 we're not as musically evolved or trained like you. So 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.800 do you do the engineering yourself? Do have preferred engineer? 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:09.520 How does it work? 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:15.320 When I record drums and perhaps a live band. I 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:17.800 do occasionally record a whole band in the studio, just 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.960 like the good old days, I need an engineer. I can't. 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.320 I have to concentrate on the music. I just can't 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:27.480 twiddle the knobs during those serious moments, you know, when 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:29.679 you're trying to get the best out of a band. 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:33.040 So then I'm a director in the studio, a big studio, 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.280 I'm a director. But when I come back to my studio, 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.400 I don't use an engineer. I do all my recording myself. 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.000 I'm always on one microphone, you know, with a singer 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:46.160 or maybe a stereo output from a keyboard. It's easily 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.120 manageable to do that and to give direction at the 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.960 same time, So I don't. I don't need an engineer 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.880 when I'm mixing, and I mix how they say inside 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.880 the box. In the box, explain to my audience what 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:03.280 that means. The means I do all the mixing in 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:07.360 the computer itself. It never leaves the computer. However, I 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:11.640 do have sixteen analog outputs to do that. If I 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.840 want to, if the project wants a more analog sound 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.400 which kind of has all the little bit of bits 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:23.400 of distortion and you know, overblown base, I could come 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:31.120 through sixteen channels of this thing called dangerous audio two bus. 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.240 It is a it's a real magic trick for anybody 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.480 who works inside the box, which is the computer, but 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:39.760 takes it out of the box just to get an 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:43.120 analog flavor and then it gets recorded back into the 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.400 box again. The nice thing about digital, I mean, people 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.720 say it's cold and all that, but digital is really true. 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:53.320 What you put in comes out, it's not It doesn't 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:55.960 color it in any way. So that's why we are 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:59.120 now after we ask for this kind of magical recording 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:03.000 all these years, now we'll finding we need all these 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:05.640 techniques to mess it up again, to make it sound 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:10.000 saturated and you know, blown out tape and all that. 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:13.600 Okay, So the old days of the analogy hat all 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:17.640 this outboard gear. So you have digital replications in the 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.960 box of those sounds and effects you might want to use. 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:27.040 Sure, I've got I've got some effects in analog gear still. 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:33.000 And next door a friend of mine has this retro 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:35.840 tape machine that we can I could use at anytime 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.120 to get that real bad repeat echo, that slapback echo. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.880 But in pro tools, there are a lot of virtual 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:48.600 apps that replicate the sound of a tape recorder or 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:54.239 any kind of reverb. I've got a reverb that emulates 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:58.360 Hansa Studios in Germany because I did my Bowie recordings 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.400 there and I I sent a team over there to 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:06.160 capture the reflections, make note of the wood panels. And 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.320 it's called t verb. So for all you recording enthusiasts 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:14.680 made by the company called Eventide and Teaset TV verb, 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:18.160 you know they named it. I didn't name it, but 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:20.920 it's called t verb in honor of me. And you 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:25.240 can get that Bowie's hero vocal sound with this app easily. 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:26.120 It's very easy to do. 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:28.800 Okay, a little bit slower. You sent your team over there, 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.319 then you made a deal with Eventide. 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.000 Well, my team was even Tide. We worked together. I 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:36.679 did a lot. I do a lot of things for them, 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:38.719 and they do a lot of things for me. I've 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.440 got all their new equipment, their old equipment. We're good friends. 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.120 And I grew up ten blocks away from the guy 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:49.480 who owns even Tide. Now Tony Aiello. We're both both 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:50.720 Brooklyn boys. 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:58.040 Okay, so we live in an era of vinyl fetishism. 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.640 From my viewpoint, I'm eating up mature. It's one thing 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:05.320 if it's recorded analog, it makes no sense to me 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:07.880 to record at such a high res and pro tools 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.400 get it down to analog. You have all the issues 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.720 that we're aware of. What is the tracking angle, the 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:18.520 inside groove, the outside groove, all these other things. What's 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.360 your take on today's vinyl mania. 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:27.440 I'm very pleased with the way vinyl sounds now. Because 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.240 we could record, we could make vinyls louder than they 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:34.720 ever were, which was always a problem, especially with lengthy 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.600 sides like in the prog rock days. Groups you used 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.320 to like to make forty even fifty minute albums, which 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:43.880 you get, that's the law of diminishing returns. You only 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:48.160 have so many grooves from the label to the you know, 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:52.439 beginning of the record. So now, because of computer technology, 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:57.120 even the cutting lathes are working at speeds that a 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.840 human brain can't work at. Because in the old days, 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:02.800 when you wanted to widen the groove, you had a 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:05.440 little wheel and the engineer did it by hand to 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:08.240 open up the groove for a very loud passage, and 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:10.880 when it's quiet, he would close the groove by hand. 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:14.600 And now the computer does this about ten times quicker, 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:19.360 therefore optimizing the space between the beginning of a vinyl 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:21.640 and the end of a vinyl. So this is a 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.880 good thing that's happened. I like new vinyls. They sound 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:25.480 better than ever. 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:28.920 Let's say you cut something what at won ninety two 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:33.480 in pro tools, and then it is ultimately rendered to vinyl. 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.079 And let's see you're listening to the one ninety two version. 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:40.840 You haven't scaled it down. Are they just different listening 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.920 experiences or do you feel that one is superior? 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.320 They should be the same. One ninety two has got 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:50.679 so many bits in it that it's it's almost a 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:56.400 smooth curved analog sound, you know. And if you look 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.480 at these on an acilloscope you could see digital is. 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.320 It looks like steps in a Mario game, you know, 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.760 a Nintendo game. It looks like steps that you would climb. 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:11.439 Whereas a pure analog single is a curve, it's very smooth. 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:16.440 So one ninety two is got so many bits jammed 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.480 into per second that it resembles a curve, very closely, 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:24.480 so if you transfer one ninety two to vinyl, it'll 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:28.320 probably be the same. But vinyl has the one artifact 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.600 that it's a medium. It's got that plastic sound that 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:34.760 you're not very aware of all the time. But analog 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:38.080 sounds warm because of the vinyl itself. That's one of 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:43.200 the reasons vinyl has a warm, kind of loose kind 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.600 of sound to it. But if you listen to the 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:50.160 one nine two, it would sound incredible. I think from 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:55.280 forty eight Killer Hurts Up A mix sounds pretty good 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:57.400 if you're doing all the right things, if you're recording 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:01.840 fat you know, nice pre am and nice bass sounds 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.600 and all that. From forty a K, which is I 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:09.560 think uh DVDs of forty AK it sounds good. It 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.320 doesn't sound horrible. You know, who's got who's got these 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:14.560 big like you said, Bob, who's got these big speakers 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:19.000 in the living room anymore? Who gets a shit? Really? Yeah? Well, 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:24.720 even the older people are listening on on headphones and 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:26.440 in near earbods, EarPods. 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.680 Okay, so you know there's so many takes out there. 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.560 There are some engineers who say the sound you like 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:41.640 from vinyl is actually distortion you're talking about the plastic itself. 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:43.120 Can you go a little deeper there? 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:48.760 The plastic itself adds the distortion. Uh, it's a physical process. 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:54.520 It it's it's gonna you're hearing something from outside the music. 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.000 It's the physical world, the groove and the vinyl. It's 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:02.160 a medium. Like if you just, you know, scratched a 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.800 chalk on a blackboard. It's a medium. You'll hear that 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.800 surface noise. That's what the word I'm looking for, which 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.200 everyone really talks about when they analyze a vinyl recording, 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:16.000 how much surface noise is there compared to how much 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:22.200 musical content is there. So that's the problem we have 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.360 with vinyl. And if you keep your sides short, you 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:29.000 will never hear surface noise. I recommend no more than 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:32.480 eighteen minutes per side, because beyond that you will be 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:37.480 losing a dB for every minute. That's actually a ratio, 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:39.360 it's a law in vinyl cutting. 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.560 So if we were at your house and it was 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:47.920 equally EASi or difficult, and I say I'm going to 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:50.960 play it on either vinyl or play it at one 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.920 ninety two, which would you prefer. 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:59.320 With absolutely no coloration, you would prefer the one ninety 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:03.600 two with the digital surface noise, et cetera. It still 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.800 sounds great. It's just slight. It will sound slightly different, 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.520 and maybe only I would Maybe if you gave me 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.080 a blind fall test, I couldn't tell the difference, except 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:14.720 I would. Maybe somebody putting the toe arm down on 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.399 the record might give it away. But I you know, 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:22.080 a well cut final that has an eighteen minute maximum 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.920 side and a one ninety two file, it's going to 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:26.320 sound pretty close to each other. 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.560 So have you always been a technology geek? Oh? 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:32.639 Yeah, from the good old days when I was a kid, 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:36.679 I used to take radios apart. And I had a 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.840 little radio once and it was like I took it 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.080 out of my mom's kitchen. But I bought a ten 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:47.399 inch speaker from Lafayette Street. Oh wow, Canal Street, Canal. 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:50.399 I thought you talking about the company Lafayette, which was 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:51.920 the whole thing long time ago. 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.560 It's actually Canal and Lafayette when there was all these 0:17:55.600 --> 0:18:00.000 geeky electronic parts places. And I bought a ten inch speaker, 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.440 and I wanted to hook up my very naively, I 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.280 wanted to hook up my mother's AM radio to those 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.679 ten inge speakers and I made a little box for 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:10.400 it to put the speaker in. That was my first 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.040 speaker I ever built. And I was about fourteen years old. 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:17.360 Well, this is the dark, agers, there's no internet. How 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:18.800 did you know how to do this? 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.040 I had a good friend who went to Brooklyn Tech 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:24.840 High School. He was my best friend. He lived around 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:28.240 the corner for me in bay Ridge, Brooklyn, and he 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:30.959 could do He was good with the soldering iron and 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.080 taught me how to do that. But what we actually 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:36.480 did this. He said, you know, there's not much power 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:40.200 in your mother's radio to power this tenange speaker. So 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.439 he built a little transistor circuit. At the time, they 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.359 just came out, and he built a little amplifier that 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:50.919 he put inside and it worked that. Actually, I was 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:52.600 in my room. I used to listen to the Alan 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.320 Freed Show, the Jocko Show on radio and all that, 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.800 and I could really crank that ten inch speaker. Because 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:04.399 of Bruce's intovention, my mom, My mom flipped out. She says, 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:07.520 you broke my radio, you know, and in those days 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:11.640 a home only owned one radio. My home did anyway, 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.639 you know. But she was okay, she was happy I 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.159 went into this career. So you know, I was okay 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:17.560 after that. 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:23.360 Okay, you know computers. The Apple Tube comes out at 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:25.480 the end of the seventies, the Mac comes out in 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:28.680 the mid eighties, the Internet hits in the nineties. Were 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.600 you an early adopter? Where did you come into the 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:32.480 computer world. 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:38.840 It's a good question. I got a what you call 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:43.359 a desktop in the seventies. You know, it looks like 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:45.920 a big cheese grater there the first when they first 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:48.920 one they brought out, and I wasn't on a laptop. 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:51.520 I was using this and I had a monitor which 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:54.639 was extremely expensive in lo fi, and you know, a 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:59.600 visual monitored. And a friend came around and I had 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:03.640 a rack full of gear from playing live and all that, 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.480 and that's when I began. It was a lot of fun. 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:10.920 I don't think I started on pro Tools. They they 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:14.040 had only a four track thing called digit Design or 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:17.440 something like that. They weren't they weren't pro Tools yet. 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.480 And then there was this German company who made Logic. 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:25.200 So Logic was the game changer from uh they went 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.720 a track when pro Tools were still four track. So 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:32.119 I switched over to the Logic brand and I started 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:35.920 to make really good, good recordings at home and what 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.320 I ended up doing was because I didn't have an 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:43.080 analog tape machine. I would do a lot of tricky stuff, 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:47.160 a lot of editing the in the UH in pro 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:49.919 tools or logic, and then I would there were some 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:51.920 studios that already had it too. I would bring my 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:55.560 files there and we'd lock them up with the twenty 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:58.160 four track tape or the sixteen track tape that we had, 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:00.360 so I could do a lot of work at home, 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:04.679 which was inexpensive on editing, and then go with the 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.760 edited files back and put it on the the tape 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:12.359 that had the analog drums recorded on it and all that. 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:16.440 So I did this really quite early in the game seventies. 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:23.399 I can't remember what year, but probably seventy nine around then, 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:24.600 seventy nine to eighty. 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:30.280 Okay, you have this external piece of equipment. Needless to say, 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:33.560 almost no one cuts on analog tape anymore, for no 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:36.680 other reason. You can't really even get it. Yeah, if 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:41.720 you use your system, will it sound to a train deer? 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.159 Will it sound just like tape? 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:48.240 Pretty much? So I have had so many people tell 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:51.560 me that you're an analog guy. I can hear it, 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:54.159 you know, And I'm mixing in the box, you know. 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:57.920 So that's that's good. It's a good thing that I could. 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.159 I could capture that sound again by the way I do. 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:04.120 When I have these clients who can afford it, we 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:07.560 do use twenty four and forty eight track. Going back 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:10.440 to to an analog studio. There are plenty of them 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:15.080 still in use, but the clients have to be quite 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:18.280 wealthy to use it. And at the end of maybe 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:21.000 two weeks of recording drums, et cetera and things like that, 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:25.760 then we'll have the engineer put everything into pro tools. 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:28.639 But we could work for an analog for like the 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:30.920 two weeks time, and then once it's in pro tools, 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:32.639 then I could do what I normally do. 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:35.400 Okay, in the old days, if you were a big act, 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:39.080 you'd go through rezillion reels of tape, just if you 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:41.560 go into a studio when you're recording on a studo 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:47.280 or something. Since tape is expensive in not in volume, 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:50.199 just use the tapes over and over again, or do 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:51.480 you do at old school record it. 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:56.080 Once we shelve it, you could use it over and 0:22:56.080 --> 0:23:00.520 over again. Tape has quite a long life. There's only 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:03.600 one brand now anyway, and thank god it's good, doesn't 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:07.200 shed as much. It used to be sickening to play 0:23:07.240 --> 0:23:09.080 a tape all day long. And then you go and 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:11.280 take the tape off the machine and you see this 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:16.240 little mountain of oxide that was shedded from the tape 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.200 going past the heads for hours and hours on end. 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:23.000 And then you can actually sometimes hold the tape up 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:24.639 to a light and you could see through the tape. 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:31.960 It's a horrible medium, it really, it's archaic, But what 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:35.359 studios do nowadays, this is a really nice trick. And 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:37.760 you could do it with a machine called Stuoter. Because 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:40.639 it's got three heads instead of the traditional two heads. 0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:46.240 You can actually record a session on tape and simultaneously 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:49.080 play it back into a computer. And as soon as 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:52.240 it comes off the record tape, it hits a playback 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:56.320 tape and it goes into pro Tools like within a 0:23:56.359 --> 0:24:00.600 split second. That is quite a modern day of ing now. 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:03.400 So after you've got the drums and all that done, 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:06.159 you could then open up pro Tools and listen to 0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:08.840 it and it just sounds fantastic. You can't get it 0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:17.360 fresher than that, you know, Okay. 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:20.600 Let's go back to growing up. People may not realize 0:24:20.640 --> 0:24:23.360 that a ten inch speaker is actually pretty big. It'd 0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:26.200 be pretty loud. So what'd your parents say when you're 0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:29.040 playing the radio through this amplified ten inch speaker? 0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:34.680 Oh, everything you can think of, like shut that thing off, 0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:38.960 turn it down, but it you know, I'd say, it 0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:42.359 sounds so good loud mom, you know. And she was 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:45.800 more sympathetic. My dad. Dad just couldn't tolerate it, you know. 0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:47.960 And he hated the music. He hated rock and roll. 0:24:50.040 --> 0:24:52.760 And your parents did what for a living? 0:24:53.160 --> 0:24:55.840 My father was many things. He was a shipwright in 0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:58.760 the World War Two, so he built ships with the 0:24:58.840 --> 0:25:02.560 in the navy yard, the Berkley Navy Yard. Then he 0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:05.959 afterwards found it was like a kind of all around 0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:11.639 handyman guy. So he became a professional, sorry, a professional carpenter, 0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:15.600 and he was a union member and built a lot 0:25:15.640 --> 0:25:19.600 of houses on Long Island in those days. He would 0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:21.639 just go off in his car. We lived in Brooklyn. 0:25:21.680 --> 0:25:24.479 He'd go off in his car and after the cement 0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:26.840 work has put down the foundation, he would put the 0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:32.240 timber and the lumber and start building the house. Quite 0:25:32.240 --> 0:25:35.840 often he'd build a house single handedly. One day he 0:25:35.920 --> 0:25:38.000 took me just he wanted me to hold up a 0:25:38.000 --> 0:25:40.080 beam while he nailed it on the other end, you know, 0:25:40.760 --> 0:25:42.560 and I had too. He wanted to make a man 0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:45.439 of me, he said. So it took two weeks of 0:25:45.440 --> 0:25:47.480 my life and my hands were full of splinters and 0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:50.320 cuts and all that. And I said, Dad, I'm just 0:25:50.680 --> 0:25:52.280 not going to be a carpenter. You got to get 0:25:52.359 --> 0:25:56.400 used to it. But he was. He was a good guy. 0:25:56.520 --> 0:25:58.800 He taught me music. He taught me how to play 0:25:58.840 --> 0:26:04.240 mandolin and guitar, and he played accordion too, So we 0:26:04.320 --> 0:26:07.240 used to jam together. And thanks to him, I knew 0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:09.439 all the songs from the thirties and the forties, you know, 0:26:09.520 --> 0:26:12.800 the music that he grew up with, the nineteen thirties 0:26:12.800 --> 0:26:13.720 and forties. 0:26:13.440 --> 0:26:17.639 Right right right, So he literally taught you. He would 0:26:17.640 --> 0:26:19.480 get the instrument out and say this is how you do. 0:26:19.480 --> 0:26:24.080 It, yes, and this is I got my first ukulele 0:26:24.240 --> 0:26:27.680 at five years old, and it came with a book. 0:26:27.760 --> 0:26:30.639 The strings were colored strings. The book had colored the 0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:33.679 colored strings equivalent in the book, and I would just 0:26:33.720 --> 0:26:37.200 put my finger where the dot was on the right 0:26:37.240 --> 0:26:40.399 colored string, and I was playing. By the end of 0:26:40.400 --> 0:26:42.840 the day, I was playing a few of the songs 0:26:42.840 --> 0:26:46.520 in the book and within a couple of weeks they 0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:48.959 got me a proper This is a plastic ukulele with 0:26:49.000 --> 0:26:54.199 the popeye and olive oil decops all over it. Real 0:26:54.440 --> 0:27:00.000 Woolworth's piece of dung. But anyway, about three months later 0:27:00.200 --> 0:27:02.639 they went out and got me a wooden ukulele and 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:06.160 I started really, you know, jamming on that thing. He 0:27:06.200 --> 0:27:08.200 was a good man, it was really. He knew I 0:27:08.520 --> 0:27:10.119 had talent, and he nurtured me. 0:27:11.080 --> 0:27:17.960 Okay, this is Brooklyn in the forties and fifties. There 0:27:17.960 --> 0:27:19.600 were a lot of how I've had to put this, 0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:21.760 you know, you gotta be wary of anything you say today. 0:27:21.760 --> 0:27:24.679 There were a lot of ethnicities. There were Jews, there 0:27:24.720 --> 0:27:28.560 were Italians. Was this well, you know, were you you 0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:31.320 have an Italian last name? Was this something that was 0:27:31.359 --> 0:27:32.400 part of your upbringing? 0:27:33.800 --> 0:27:37.760 Yes. I lived in what is now called Bourham Hill, 0:27:38.359 --> 0:27:42.040 which we used to just call it downtown downtown Brooklyn. 0:27:42.400 --> 0:27:46.280 So I lived on Warren Street between Hoyt and Smith Street, 0:27:46.760 --> 0:27:49.320 pretty close to the shopping area that was not too 0:27:49.400 --> 0:27:56.080 far away. And our building had basically all Italians in 0:27:56.119 --> 0:27:59.800 it because my grandfather owned it, So we had Italians 0:27:59.840 --> 0:28:02.200 on We lived on the ground floor and we had 0:28:02.200 --> 0:28:04.480 Italians in the middle floor and on the upper floor, 0:28:04.960 --> 0:28:08.320 and next door we had a Sicilian family who owned 0:28:08.320 --> 0:28:12.040 that house, and you know, we were Neapolitans, not that 0:28:12.080 --> 0:28:14.639 I could speak any Italian, but there was like a 0:28:14.680 --> 0:28:18.760 lot of love lost between Sicilians and Neapolitans, so we 0:28:19.080 --> 0:28:22.480 had that little battle going on, you know. But my 0:28:22.560 --> 0:28:25.560 mother made friends easily because on the other side of 0:28:25.600 --> 0:28:28.560 the street around the corner was Wykoff Street, which was 0:28:28.640 --> 0:28:32.199 all black, all black people, and my mother used to 0:28:32.200 --> 0:28:34.440 go to the end of the garden and she had 0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:36.480 a friend. I forget what her name was, but they 0:28:36.480 --> 0:28:40.640 addressed each other as you know, missus Smith and Missus Visconti, 0:28:41.320 --> 0:28:43.600 and they got on. They would chat for about an 0:28:43.600 --> 0:28:47.680 hour each time and wouldn't invite each other in each 0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:53.320 other's houses, but they became good friends. Across the street, 0:28:53.520 --> 0:29:00.200 we had this crazy guy who had a junkyard. He 0:29:00.720 --> 0:29:04.280 just like was dangerous if you got close to his 0:29:04.440 --> 0:29:06.880 junk yard and you wanted to like peek in. And 0:29:06.920 --> 0:29:08.840 at once I went in and sat on a tractor. 0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:12.040 He nearly killed me, you know, chased me off the 0:29:12.640 --> 0:29:14.520 tractor and I ran back across the street to my 0:29:14.560 --> 0:29:18.240 home down the street. We had Irish people all on 0:29:18.280 --> 0:29:22.640 us the same street, and we had Hispanic people, and 0:29:23.400 --> 0:29:26.400 we all got along kids in the street, you know, 0:29:26.560 --> 0:29:32.760 playing hopscotch, ring Aleivio, all these crazy street game. You 0:29:32.760 --> 0:29:34.240 can only play it in the middle of the street. 0:29:34.240 --> 0:29:37.200 And you needed a lot of chalk to make all 0:29:37.240 --> 0:29:39.640 the patterns. And all that. We weren't you know, I 0:29:39.920 --> 0:29:41.719 guess you can gather that we weren't wealthy. We were 0:29:41.760 --> 0:29:45.920 quite working class. But I got toys at Christmas. I 0:29:45.920 --> 0:29:49.360 got the ugulele. I got some fun stuff. And my 0:29:49.480 --> 0:29:53.959 mother was a fantastic Italian cook. She would cook and 0:29:54.040 --> 0:29:57.080 sing in the kitchen at the same time. And her 0:29:57.200 --> 0:30:00.480 sauce or gravy with depending on your ethnic what you 0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:05.400 want to call it started two days before Sunday because 0:30:05.400 --> 0:30:10.160 she reduced that those jars of tomatoes to just liquid gold. 0:30:10.480 --> 0:30:14.520 It was just delicious. And she would sing Italian songs 0:30:14.520 --> 0:30:17.720 in the kitchen. She was a fluent Italian singer, and 0:30:17.800 --> 0:30:21.440 she had a voice like an opera singer. I heard. 0:30:22.720 --> 0:30:24.720 We had a friend who had a disc cutter in 0:30:24.760 --> 0:30:27.640 those days, in the late fifties. He cut these little 0:30:27.680 --> 0:30:31.560 seven inch discs. So I heard my mother sing Italian 0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:36.000 songs on those discs in recent times, about twenty years ago, 0:30:37.400 --> 0:30:39.280 and I said to her on the phone, I said, Mom, 0:30:39.760 --> 0:30:43.280 you had an operatic voice. You are a contralto. Do 0:30:43.320 --> 0:30:47.120 you realize you could have sung an opera? And she goes, oh, 0:30:47.160 --> 0:30:52.760 she goes, all Italian women could sing. She was a 0:30:52.800 --> 0:30:55.200 great sobering influence on me. You know, I didn't grow 0:30:55.280 --> 0:30:57.840 up with any airs. The two of them kept me 0:30:57.880 --> 0:30:59.840 in check and themselves in check too. 0:31:00.280 --> 0:31:02.000 But they were both born in America. 0:31:03.000 --> 0:31:07.240 Yes, my father was born in New Jersey and to 0:31:07.680 --> 0:31:12.200 Italian immigrants, and my mother was born in Brooklyn to 0:31:13.320 --> 0:31:16.240 Italian immigrants as well. They were both both born in Naples. 0:31:16.920 --> 0:31:22.160 So what was your upbringing like? Were you popular? Were 0:31:22.160 --> 0:31:24.760 you good in school? Were you a loner? Were you 0:31:25.400 --> 0:31:29.600 exterior or into her? What kind of kid were you? Uh? 0:31:30.360 --> 0:31:32.800 I don't know. I remember the first day of kindergarten 0:31:32.840 --> 0:31:35.280 well because I cried my eyes out. My mother left 0:31:35.320 --> 0:31:37.840 me and went walked out the door. And that was 0:31:37.880 --> 0:31:40.280 the most traumatic day of my life up until that 0:31:40.360 --> 0:31:43.480 period to do without my mother, because I was by 0:31:43.560 --> 0:31:45.960 her side all the time until I went to kindergarten. 0:31:46.600 --> 0:31:50.160 And then I remember within an hour, we were supposed 0:31:50.200 --> 0:31:53.720 to sit down and clap hands and sing a song. 0:31:53.800 --> 0:31:55.600 And I didn't like the girl to the left of me, 0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:57.920 so I clapped. I opened up my hands so wide 0:31:57.960 --> 0:32:01.000 that I hit her in the head. I don't know 0:32:01.040 --> 0:32:03.200 what I was taking my anger out on, but you 0:32:03.240 --> 0:32:05.320 know why I was doing this. But I really did 0:32:05.360 --> 0:32:10.640 not like being separated from my mother. And after that year, 0:32:10.680 --> 0:32:13.560 which I don't remember anything more about it, it was just kindergarten. 0:32:13.600 --> 0:32:15.800 We just played on the floor and drew, you know, 0:32:15.880 --> 0:32:19.200 pictures and all that. But the first grade was quite interesting. 0:32:19.240 --> 0:32:22.800 I was very interested in learning how to read and write, 0:32:22.960 --> 0:32:26.040 and I was already my parents started me off. I 0:32:26.080 --> 0:32:28.480 could read basic words, I knew how the alphabet worked, 0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:32.880 and until I was about up until the third grade, 0:32:32.960 --> 0:32:37.520 I was a good scholar. I paid attention and it 0:32:37.600 --> 0:32:40.760 was good and kind of after that I lost interest. 0:32:42.640 --> 0:32:45.719 When I got up to fifth grade, I or sixth grade, 0:32:46.560 --> 0:32:49.520 I got a great teacher. He pulled me out of 0:32:49.560 --> 0:32:51.640 the doldrums of like, you know, just going to school 0:32:51.680 --> 0:32:55.160 and all that. His name was James Flanagan, and he 0:32:55.320 --> 0:32:59.800 was in World War maybe the Korean War. Probably maybe 0:32:59.840 --> 0:33:02.280 the Korean War could have been World War Two. I 0:33:02.280 --> 0:33:04.920 don't know, but he told me like lots of stories 0:33:04.960 --> 0:33:07.000 and he took me aside. He so that I was like, 0:33:07.000 --> 0:33:10.520 like after class, we'd chat for about fifteen minutes and 0:33:10.960 --> 0:33:14.040 he was really good to me. And one day he said, 0:33:15.080 --> 0:33:18.480 when I was in Japan, I saw men who could 0:33:18.560 --> 0:33:22.720 break wood with their bare hands, and I said, that's it. 0:33:22.880 --> 0:33:26.160 I got to learn how to break with with my bands. 0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:30.920 He got me like going. And there was early karate 0:33:31.040 --> 0:33:33.240 schools in New York City at the time, which I 0:33:33.280 --> 0:33:35.440 was too young to go to. But I bought a 0:33:35.480 --> 0:33:38.040 book and I did my own training in my backyard. 0:33:38.840 --> 0:33:41.880 And I have James Flanagan or Jim, you know, we 0:33:41.880 --> 0:33:43.880 could call him. He was cool. We could call him 0:33:43.880 --> 0:33:47.120 by his first name in the sixth grade, whereas before 0:33:47.160 --> 0:33:49.240 that you had to call the teachers by their surnames. 0:33:49.240 --> 0:33:51.840 You know, well for people who weren't around. You were 0:33:52.040 --> 0:33:55.800 really early on the karate thing that did not really 0:33:55.840 --> 0:34:00.320 go mainstream to like mid to late sixties. But you're 0:34:00.320 --> 0:34:04.600 an only child, correct, Yes, I am so any viewpoints 0:34:04.640 --> 0:34:05.000 on that. 0:34:06.280 --> 0:34:08.880 Oh, I love being an only child. I don't know 0:34:08.880 --> 0:34:10.960 how to be any other way. Like I look at 0:34:10.960 --> 0:34:13.680 brothers and sisters, and I see how they get along. 0:34:14.160 --> 0:34:16.920 And what I witnessed most of the time when I 0:34:16.920 --> 0:34:18.880 was growing up was that they were often fighting with 0:34:18.960 --> 0:34:21.640 each other over something like there's one toy to be 0:34:21.680 --> 0:34:24.080 shared between two kids, and all that. I didn't share 0:34:24.200 --> 0:34:28.040 anything with anybody. They were all my toys, and that's 0:34:28.040 --> 0:34:30.640 how I thought it was great. It was great being 0:34:30.680 --> 0:34:33.440 an only child. I had a cousin, a close cousin 0:34:33.480 --> 0:34:35.040 who used to come over to my house and we 0:34:35.120 --> 0:34:39.920 play for a while, and like around I guess twelve 0:34:40.000 --> 0:34:44.440 years old thirteen, we just kind of He became very religious. 0:34:44.440 --> 0:34:48.800 He became a religious Catholic and went to a parochial school, 0:34:48.800 --> 0:34:52.879 which I just couldn't handle it. I already knew something 0:34:53.000 --> 0:34:55.360 was wrong. I didn't want to learn any more religion. 0:34:55.440 --> 0:34:58.440 I didn't like it. I didn't like the nuns. I 0:34:58.440 --> 0:35:02.719 didn't like the priests. The masses were nice if they 0:35:02.719 --> 0:35:05.120 had a nice organ playing, and some of the hymns, 0:35:05.360 --> 0:35:10.040 you know that. I like the musical part, but it 0:35:10.120 --> 0:35:13.560 just wasn't for me. And when I was fifteen, I 0:35:13.600 --> 0:35:18.160 totally left the church. I had a chiropractor who was 0:35:18.640 --> 0:35:22.040 a very modern thinker, and he was again like a 0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:25.600 father figure, like mister Flanagan was, and we were talking 0:35:25.600 --> 0:35:27.680 about religion one day. He goes, how do you feel 0:35:27.719 --> 0:35:29.600 about it? And I go, I don't know. I said, 0:35:29.880 --> 0:35:33.400 it's kind of simple, and yet there's nothing there that 0:35:33.640 --> 0:35:36.000 entices me, like wants me to go to church. He goes, 0:35:36.320 --> 0:35:40.120 I stopped going to church too, and yah, he made 0:35:40.160 --> 0:35:45.120 me the atheist that I am today. I'm actually in 0:35:45.160 --> 0:35:47.560 touch with his sons now, who are like in their forties. 0:35:47.680 --> 0:35:50.560 You know, he's still alive, that guy. 0:35:51.200 --> 0:35:54.680 Okay, you learn how to play the ukulele. That is 0:35:54.880 --> 0:35:58.200 pre rock and roll. You know, there's so many definitions. 0:35:58.239 --> 0:36:00.800 What the first rock and roll wreck was? Was it 0:36:01.000 --> 0:36:04.520 Rocket eighty eight? Rock around the clock? When did you 0:36:04.760 --> 0:36:07.279 hear rock and roll? When did you become infected? 0:36:08.600 --> 0:36:11.759 That would be about ten or eleven. I heard these 0:36:11.880 --> 0:36:16.919 early radio shows that Alan Freed did in New York. 0:36:17.000 --> 0:36:19.680 He was on once a week, and that's the main 0:36:19.719 --> 0:36:22.320 reason why I wanted to build this Frankenstein Radio was 0:36:22.360 --> 0:36:23.880 to hear it a little bit better. I wanted to 0:36:23.960 --> 0:36:27.680 hear some bass coming out of the speakers, and Alan 0:36:27.800 --> 0:36:31.719 Freed just played fantastic music. He was mainly playing R 0:36:31.719 --> 0:36:35.040 and B, and he played a lot of black artists, 0:36:35.120 --> 0:36:38.160 you know, like Little Richard and the Moon Glows, Harvey 0:36:38.160 --> 0:36:40.920 and the Moon Glows, all those old doop groups. And 0:36:41.040 --> 0:36:45.399 then I discovered Jocko, who was a DJ. I don't 0:36:45.440 --> 0:36:47.239 know his full name. He just used to go like, 0:36:48.160 --> 0:36:52.399 I am your engineer, ooh, bop do, how do you do? 0:36:52.840 --> 0:36:56.399 This is your engineer Jocko. And I used to listen 0:36:56.480 --> 0:36:58.680 to him like one morning a week, and he would 0:36:58.719 --> 0:37:01.920 play the most insane he'd go much further with the 0:37:02.040 --> 0:37:04.799 R and B. He would find some music from the 0:37:04.800 --> 0:37:08.680 Deep South that Alan Freed wouldn't play because Alan Fee 0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:12.760 was catering mainly to a white teenage crowd and Jocko 0:37:12.920 --> 0:37:16.920 was catering to a black crowd, black audience. So I 0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:19.080 had the best of both worlds. I can't complain. Was 0:37:19.760 --> 0:37:22.920 that so? Anyway? Alan Freed started the first rock and 0:37:23.000 --> 0:37:27.560 roll shows ever, like at the Brooklyn Paramount Theater, where 0:37:27.600 --> 0:37:30.960 you would have on one bill you would have Buddy Holly, 0:37:31.280 --> 0:37:36.200 Little Richard, Harvey and the Moon Glows, the Cleftones, Shirley 0:37:36.239 --> 0:37:40.440 and Lee, all singing two songs each and they would 0:37:40.440 --> 0:37:43.000 work from morning to night. The first show was like 0:37:43.120 --> 0:37:46.719 ten am and the last show ended at midnight, and 0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:49.080 I would pay for the I would go in in Brooklyn. 0:37:49.520 --> 0:37:52.759 I would take the train to the Brooklyn Paramount, pay 0:37:52.800 --> 0:37:54.719 for the to get in, and then hide in the 0:37:54.760 --> 0:37:58.600 bathroom in between shows and go back. And I'd stay 0:37:58.680 --> 0:38:01.560 till at least eight o'clock at night and see three 0:38:01.600 --> 0:38:05.360 shows and to see the people that I was hearing 0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:08.120 Alan Freed play on the radio, to see them live 0:38:08.960 --> 0:38:13.400 in color, you know, like the Cleftones would wear double 0:38:13.440 --> 0:38:18.520 breasted suits in shaw truce, you know, and shar truce loafers, 0:38:19.480 --> 0:38:21.120 you know, and they were the cool They would have 0:38:21.200 --> 0:38:23.680 the coolest dand steps. You know. While the guy was 0:38:23.680 --> 0:38:25.920 singing lead, the other four guys would just drop down 0:38:25.960 --> 0:38:29.360 into a split and you can't see that on the radio, 0:38:29.480 --> 0:38:33.440 you know. To see these people actually perform these songs 0:38:33.480 --> 0:38:37.399 live was incredible. The other thing I remember from this, Bob, 0:38:37.560 --> 0:38:41.080 is that they had one guitar amplifier in the middle 0:38:41.080 --> 0:38:43.560 of the stage, and that was to suffice for all 0:38:43.560 --> 0:38:47.120 the guitar players in the show, and the lead the 0:38:47.440 --> 0:38:51.040 guitar chord went all the way to the side of 0:38:51.080 --> 0:38:54.040 the stage, like it was about, you know, thirty feet 0:38:54.120 --> 0:38:59.360 thirty five feet maybe forty feet long, and only about 0:38:59.520 --> 0:39:02.120 half the had a guitar player. The rest was an 0:39:02.160 --> 0:39:04.479 in house band. But all of a sudden you would 0:39:04.480 --> 0:39:07.879 hear the buzz of, say, somebody plugging it in, and 0:39:07.960 --> 0:39:11.680 that had to be either Chuck Berry or Buddy Holly 0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:14.319 or somebody like the I think the moon Glows had 0:39:14.360 --> 0:39:17.319 an electric guitarist in their band, and that's my heart 0:39:17.320 --> 0:39:19.279 would start beating. I said, who is it going to be? 0:39:19.360 --> 0:39:20.640 Is it going to be Buddy or is it going 0:39:20.719 --> 0:39:24.160 to be you know, Chuck Berry? And that was even 0:39:24.200 --> 0:39:28.000 The buzz of that guitar being plugged in was exciting 0:39:28.040 --> 0:39:30.000 for me. It made my heart beat quicker. 0:39:31.640 --> 0:39:34.600 Okay, are you an Elvis guy? 0:39:35.600 --> 0:39:41.040 Oh yeah, definitely. I have a picture of me singing 0:39:41.040 --> 0:39:44.359 Elvis songs. It's just a photograph on my baritone yuke 0:39:44.440 --> 0:39:47.040 because I was still too young to have a proper 0:39:47.080 --> 0:39:50.520 sized guitar. But I could sing Love Me Tender, playing 0:39:50.560 --> 0:39:53.680 accompany myself on a baritone ukulele, which is a slightly 0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:58.759 bigger ukulele than the little guy. And I could never 0:39:58.760 --> 0:40:00.960 see him in person. I don't think he ever played 0:40:01.000 --> 0:40:04.640 New York. No he didn't. That would have been that 0:40:04.680 --> 0:40:07.480 would have been you know, that would amaze, be amazing. 0:40:07.520 --> 0:40:10.799 But he, you know, had Colonel Tom Parker, who if 0:40:10.840 --> 0:40:13.440 the money wasn't right, like he would want the money 0:40:13.600 --> 0:40:16.239 from the whole show if Elvis was to appear. So 0:40:16.320 --> 0:40:19.640 he never did shows like that, and I never saw 0:40:19.719 --> 0:40:22.360 him in person, Bowie said. He met Elvis in person, 0:40:22.440 --> 0:40:23.439 but I never did. 0:40:24.160 --> 0:40:28.320 Okay, you learn how to play the ukulele at age five, 0:40:29.360 --> 0:40:32.759 you become infected with rock and roll. What's your musical 0:40:33.640 --> 0:40:37.040 life span after that? When do you start playing other things? 0:40:37.080 --> 0:40:39.160 When do you decide you want to play in a band. 0:40:39.200 --> 0:40:40.680 When do you decide this is what you want to 0:40:40.719 --> 0:40:41.400 do for a living. 0:40:42.680 --> 0:40:46.840 Okay? So by when my parents saw that I was 0:40:46.880 --> 0:40:50.160 outgrowing the ukulele, they got me a guitar and a 0:40:50.320 --> 0:40:53.279 friend of theirs who sold it to them, who was 0:40:53.320 --> 0:40:57.960 his secondhand guitar. He said, your son should take lessons. 0:40:57.960 --> 0:41:00.560 And I've got this great friend the mine. He's a 0:41:00.840 --> 0:41:04.440 guitar teacher who lived in Eastern Parkway, so it was 0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:06.760 quite a trick for me. But his name was Leon Block, 0:41:07.480 --> 0:41:10.640 and he wrote some great books, great guitar books. And 0:41:11.719 --> 0:41:14.640 I went the bus ride from my house to his 0:41:14.960 --> 0:41:17.239 and I would do this all four seasons I went. 0:41:17.280 --> 0:41:20.239 I studied with him for three years until I was 0:41:20.400 --> 0:41:23.280 fifteen fifteen and a half. That would take an hour 0:41:23.400 --> 0:41:26.000 both ways, and I would go in the middle of 0:41:26.080 --> 0:41:28.560 the winter if it was snowing, I would not miss 0:41:28.600 --> 0:41:30.479 a lesson. And it was all It was like three 0:41:30.480 --> 0:41:33.120 bus rides, you know, three bus changes, you get you 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:37.520 what do you call it? Transfer? And after the three years, 0:41:37.600 --> 0:41:40.160 he said he taught me how to read and write music. 0:41:40.640 --> 0:41:44.160 He taught me how to play jazz guitar, classical guitar. 0:41:44.760 --> 0:41:49.400 He pulled out some Bach duets. He would take a 0:41:49.440 --> 0:41:52.720 Bach two part invention and he would play the bass 0:41:52.840 --> 0:41:56.080 line on a guitar and I would I could already 0:41:56.080 --> 0:41:58.279 read travel Cleft, so I would play the top line 0:41:58.680 --> 0:42:01.879 and they were difficult gault. But you know, by after 0:42:01.960 --> 0:42:05.360 about two years, I was pretty good. And then he 0:42:05.440 --> 0:42:07.279 surprised me. He said, now we're going to swap. We've 0:42:07.320 --> 0:42:09.319 gone through the book. Now you play the bass line 0:42:09.360 --> 0:42:11.919 and I'll play the top line. I couldn't have asked 0:42:11.960 --> 0:42:14.480 for a better teacher than him. That was three years 0:42:14.520 --> 0:42:17.760 of bliss, and I always loved him, and any assignment 0:42:17.800 --> 0:42:19.680 he gave me was never too hard. I would just 0:42:19.760 --> 0:42:23.360 practice because I wanted to impress him. But by fifteen 0:42:23.400 --> 0:42:28.279 and a half I started meeting local musicians who lived 0:42:28.320 --> 0:42:31.600 around me and from school and all that, and that's 0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:34.800 when I formed my first band. It was actually a 0:42:34.840 --> 0:42:37.920 little earlier, but maybe fourteen, and that was with a 0:42:38.080 --> 0:42:44.080 sax player who was Mike Di Stefano and his cousin 0:42:45.040 --> 0:42:47.520 who was I forget his cousin's name, but he was 0:42:47.560 --> 0:42:50.800 a blind drummer and I was the guitarist. So it 0:42:50.920 --> 0:42:54.400 was guitar, sax and the drummer and we called ourselves 0:42:54.440 --> 0:42:58.320 Mike d and the Dukes. That was my first band. 0:42:58.400 --> 0:43:02.720 I was a duke, obviously. So we went and started 0:43:02.719 --> 0:43:07.440 playing parish dances, like you know, Saint Bernadette's would have 0:43:07.600 --> 0:43:12.160 dance night for the kids, heavily supervised by priests and nuns. 0:43:12.640 --> 0:43:15.560 But we'd get up there and we'd play rock and roll, 0:43:16.360 --> 0:43:19.680 and then if we played a slow dance, they would 0:43:19.719 --> 0:43:22.439 start dancing cheek to cheek and the priest would say, 0:43:22.520 --> 0:43:25.279 stop the music. Stop the music. That's enough to get 0:43:25.480 --> 0:43:28.439 you know, kids who would fourteen and fifteen really get 0:43:28.480 --> 0:43:30.239 into it, you know, if you give him a half 0:43:30.239 --> 0:43:35.440 a chance and from there. I played that for a 0:43:35.480 --> 0:43:37.600 while and I couldn't it was too young for nightclubs. 0:43:38.239 --> 0:43:41.920 But when I was seventeen, the most amazing thing happened 0:43:41.920 --> 0:43:44.719 to me. And I can't remember exactly how, but through 0:43:44.800 --> 0:43:48.560 a friend, there was this nightclub at the far end 0:43:48.560 --> 0:43:52.520 of Brooklyn called Ben Maxick's Town and Country. It was 0:43:52.600 --> 0:43:56.560 very close to Floyd Bennett Airfield, and Ben Maxick had 0:43:56.560 --> 0:43:59.799 this vision. He loved Las Vegas and he wanted his 0:44:00.400 --> 0:44:03.440 was to bring Las Vegas to New York. And he 0:44:03.440 --> 0:44:07.000 couldn't find a space like those enormous you know places 0:44:07.000 --> 0:44:10.560 that you can build in the desert in Las Vegas. 0:44:11.400 --> 0:44:13.759 It couldn't build in Manhattan. But in Brooklyn there was 0:44:13.840 --> 0:44:16.000 real estate where he built like a I don't know, 0:44:16.560 --> 0:44:21.719 it's probably a six acre nightclub. He could have a 0:44:21.960 --> 0:44:25.960 capacity with two thousand people, and he pulled in acts 0:44:26.120 --> 0:44:31.279 like Milton Burle, Robert Goulay, Sophie Tucker, the last of 0:44:31.320 --> 0:44:34.880 the Red Hot Mammas. I played for all these people. 0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:38.320 So through a friend I got the job. The bass 0:44:38.320 --> 0:44:40.560 player just quit his wife had a baby or something, 0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:43.239 and I was already another instrument I play is you 0:44:43.280 --> 0:44:48.440 know double bass? The upright bass, and Ned Harvey, the 0:44:48.480 --> 0:44:50.600 leader of the band, wanted a kid in the band. 0:44:50.640 --> 0:44:53.320 He wanted a young person in the band. My job 0:44:53.480 --> 0:44:57.120 was to play the bass for the dance band and 0:44:57.160 --> 0:44:59.560 play the bass for the acts like Robert Gulay and 0:44:59.600 --> 0:45:04.000 people that, and then when it was dancing time, I 0:45:04.000 --> 0:45:06.520 would have to bring my guitar and play some rock 0:45:06.560 --> 0:45:09.480 and roll songs like Elvia songs so the kids could 0:45:09.560 --> 0:45:11.719 dance to it, and the kids and their parents could 0:45:11.800 --> 0:45:15.560 dance to it. It was a gig from heaven. I 0:45:15.600 --> 0:45:18.680 had that job for three years, and I made so 0:45:18.920 --> 0:45:21.280 much money I bought That's when I got my own instruments. 0:45:21.320 --> 0:45:24.719 I didn't have to have my parents by instruments for 0:45:24.840 --> 0:45:29.279 me anymore. And I kind of you know, I was 0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:33.560 working till three am. So often my father would come 0:45:33.600 --> 0:45:36.560 home and find me. He come over from work, say 0:45:36.560 --> 0:45:39.160 at four thirty, and I would have my feet up 0:45:39.200 --> 0:45:43.000 watching television, and it made him so angry that I 0:45:43.040 --> 0:45:46.080 could just work seven nights a week and make all 0:45:46.080 --> 0:45:47.920 this money and he had to work like a dog, 0:45:48.080 --> 0:45:50.880 you know. He would often come home at four thirty, 0:45:51.200 --> 0:45:53.920 have dinner, and then go out to someone's house and 0:45:53.960 --> 0:45:57.000 put up cabinets for them, you know, And one day 0:45:57.040 --> 0:46:00.560 he had we had a big fight about this. I said, Dad, 0:46:00.600 --> 0:46:02.399 I can't. What do you want me to do? Work 0:46:02.440 --> 0:46:04.440 during the day as well as six hours at night. 0:46:04.520 --> 0:46:05.520 I can't do it, you know. 0:46:05.840 --> 0:46:09.279 Okay, A couple of quick questions, were you ever Anthony 0:46:10.000 --> 0:46:10.840 Anthony junior? 0:46:11.040 --> 0:46:13.760 Yeah? So I get on the I'd answer the phone, 0:46:13.840 --> 0:46:16.359 and by that time, as fifteen, we had my father 0:46:16.440 --> 0:46:19.080 and I had the same voice, the same accent, and 0:46:19.120 --> 0:46:23.160 they go hello Anthony, and I go, yeah, you go, oh, okay, Anthony, 0:46:23.200 --> 0:46:24.680 I want to tell you about a job. I've got 0:46:24.719 --> 0:46:27.000 few and this would be a carpentry job. I go, 0:46:27.160 --> 0:46:31.680 wait a minute, you want Anthony senior. This is Anthony junior. Yeah. 0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:35.640 So then they would start calling up I want Anthony 0:46:35.719 --> 0:46:38.600 Junior or I want Anthony Senior and all that. So 0:46:38.719 --> 0:46:40.720 we had a little problem with that, but it was fun. 0:46:40.760 --> 0:46:47.320 It was funny. 0:46:48.480 --> 0:46:52.799 Okay, do you finish high school? And is there ever 0:46:52.880 --> 0:46:53.920 a thought of college? 0:46:54.400 --> 0:46:56.760 No? I knew I wasn't going to go to college. 0:46:56.840 --> 0:47:02.080 I was in college material. I couldn't wait being in 0:47:02.120 --> 0:47:05.840 this band until I was seventeen or eighteen. That just 0:47:05.960 --> 0:47:10.239 ledged for more great work. And there was no if 0:47:10.680 --> 0:47:13.560 you know, I wanted to go to Juilliard. I knew 0:47:13.560 --> 0:47:16.960 about Juilliard in Manhattan School of Music, but you could 0:47:17.040 --> 0:47:20.959 tell from all these late nights. And I wasn't doing good. 0:47:21.440 --> 0:47:23.520 My marks were horrible. In high school, I didn't get 0:47:23.520 --> 0:47:26.200 good grades. My only two subjects where I got good 0:47:26.239 --> 0:47:30.440 grades were music department grades and English. My English was good. 0:47:30.480 --> 0:47:32.440 I was always a good reader, a good speller. I 0:47:32.520 --> 0:47:36.200 like poetry, I like novels. I read Charles Dickens and 0:47:36.239 --> 0:47:39.920 all that. Had no problem with that stuff. But mathematics, 0:47:40.160 --> 0:47:42.520 forget about it. I was the worst, you know, and 0:47:42.760 --> 0:47:45.960 algebra I could barely understand. Then when it got up 0:47:46.000 --> 0:47:49.960 to trigonometry, I just totally flunked. And I couldn't wait 0:47:50.160 --> 0:47:55.319 till I hit sixteen because I could leave school, and 0:47:55.400 --> 0:47:58.279 I did. I left school as soon as possible. I 0:47:58.360 --> 0:48:01.239 just kept getting gigs after gigs after that, and I 0:48:01.440 --> 0:48:02.120 never looked back. 0:48:02.440 --> 0:48:04.400 Okay, so what kind of gigs were you getting? 0:48:05.400 --> 0:48:08.560 Well, mostly club dates where you would play in a 0:48:08.600 --> 0:48:11.359 either a catered hal for a wedding or a bar 0:48:11.480 --> 0:48:14.719 mitzter or it's something that those are the only two 0:48:14.719 --> 0:48:17.400 gigs available. Actually, a wedding or a bar mitzter or 0:48:17.520 --> 0:48:20.120 you sometimes get a Jewish wedding where you had to 0:48:20.160 --> 0:48:23.640 know how to play the horror and because shee was 0:48:23.680 --> 0:48:26.640 have their own dances, you know. So I was so 0:48:26.760 --> 0:48:29.520 well versed I could do anything. I don't know. I 0:48:29.560 --> 0:48:32.760 played Greek weddings too, which back basically it's the same music. 0:48:33.080 --> 0:48:35.640 If you play Hava Nagila at a Greek wedding, they'll 0:48:35.719 --> 0:48:39.960 dance to it. It's amazing, but it's the same beat. 0:48:41.920 --> 0:48:43.640 So I was doing club dates, club. 0:48:43.440 --> 0:48:47.080 Dates in the music world by time we hit the 0:48:47.160 --> 0:48:53.040 late fifties early sixties. Although we have Bobby Darren who 0:48:53.120 --> 0:48:56.319 has gotten a renaissance in terms of his reputation, we 0:48:56.360 --> 0:49:00.520 had Fabean, we had a lot of other stuff. Ultimately 0:49:00.560 --> 0:49:03.640 in the sixties had the Four Seeds of the Beach Boys. 0:49:03.680 --> 0:49:06.600 There was also a big folk scene. Where were you 0:49:06.719 --> 0:49:07.720 at on all that. 0:49:09.400 --> 0:49:13.959 At the time In my late teens, I definitely wanted 0:49:14.000 --> 0:49:18.000 to jump on that bandwagon. And growing up in New York, 0:49:18.280 --> 0:49:21.400 it's not really difficult to find a manager or people 0:49:21.440 --> 0:49:23.840 who work in the music business. They either live in 0:49:23.840 --> 0:49:27.040 Manhattan or they live in Brooklyn, and they actually did 0:49:27.080 --> 0:49:30.879 talent scouting in those days, and at one gig, this 0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:33.480 guy came up to me, Jay Fishman, and he said, 0:49:33.840 --> 0:49:36.799 I was singing this time. I was singing duets with 0:49:36.840 --> 0:49:40.200 a guy called Carl, and we were singing like Everly 0:49:40.239 --> 0:49:42.920 Brothers songs, and he said, I'm going to make a 0:49:42.960 --> 0:49:45.120 record with you, guys. I can get you a deal, 0:49:45.320 --> 0:49:48.360 And he actually did get us a record deal, which 0:49:48.960 --> 0:49:52.000 got local airplay. In those days, there was not too 0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:56.680 much national radio. Everything was basically local. So he didn't 0:49:56.719 --> 0:49:58.960 work out, and I just went through a series of 0:50:00.000 --> 0:50:03.520 managers who I guess, you know, in reflection, they want 0:50:03.520 --> 0:50:06.399 to be managers. We didn't get a big manager who 0:50:06.400 --> 0:50:09.440 could actually get us on a big label, but I 0:50:09.560 --> 0:50:12.120 ended up through these managers. I ended up doing a 0:50:12.120 --> 0:50:15.240 lot of recording sessions. So I stepped into the recording 0:50:15.280 --> 0:50:19.560 studio is early is like probably my sixteenth year, and 0:50:19.760 --> 0:50:24.000 started playing for demo sessions. They were quite lucrative, so 0:50:24.080 --> 0:50:26.200 a songwriter would come in and just say I've written 0:50:26.239 --> 0:50:28.960 four songs. I need you guys to just give me 0:50:29.000 --> 0:50:31.520 some backing, and we could get that done in maybe 0:50:31.560 --> 0:50:34.600 two three hours, and I'd walk away with about you know, 0:50:34.680 --> 0:50:36.759 twenty five dollars in my hand, which was good in 0:50:36.800 --> 0:50:38.319 those days. Good pay. 0:50:39.600 --> 0:50:42.719 Okay, the Beatles hit What does that mean to you? 0:50:44.600 --> 0:50:48.560 The Beatles changed everything. I keep telling younger people. I said, 0:50:48.640 --> 0:50:51.640 the world was black and white, and then when we 0:50:51.719 --> 0:50:54.920 heard She Loves You, Yeah, yeah, yeah, the world suddenly 0:50:54.920 --> 0:50:58.399 became technicolor. They did that in music, and they did 0:50:58.440 --> 0:51:01.560 that in lifestyle. You know, kids actually started looking like 0:51:01.760 --> 0:51:06.600 kids instead of you know, young adults wearing your your 0:51:06.600 --> 0:51:08.719 bar Mitz for suit all the time when you went out. 0:51:08.800 --> 0:51:12.160 You know, we started wearing buying these hip clothes that 0:51:12.200 --> 0:51:14.799 were being imported from from England and they were inspired 0:51:14.840 --> 0:51:17.759 by the Beatles. With the Beatles wore you know, collarless 0:51:17.840 --> 0:51:23.040 jackets and all that stuff. And I said to myself, 0:51:23.160 --> 0:51:25.399 somehow I'm going to get over to London. I don't 0:51:25.440 --> 0:51:27.000 know how I'm going to do it, but somehow I'm 0:51:27.040 --> 0:51:29.880 going to do that. And that took a while, but 0:51:30.239 --> 0:51:33.400 it happened. It really it happened. At one point. It 0:51:33.520 --> 0:51:35.640 was a keeper, another key person who came into my 0:51:35.680 --> 0:51:40.800 life and I had to learn how. I said, okay, 0:51:40.920 --> 0:51:43.680 here's how it happened. I had a publishing deal. A 0:51:44.320 --> 0:51:47.879 talent scout saw me and my wife, who were doing 0:51:47.920 --> 0:51:51.320 a duet act by that time. We called ourselves Toni 0:51:51.360 --> 0:51:54.000 and Sigrid, and we were playing at the in the village, 0:51:54.040 --> 0:51:56.600 like at the Cafe Wi and all those village kind 0:51:56.640 --> 0:52:01.600 of cool hippie places to perform at. And as a 0:52:01.600 --> 0:52:04.560 result of a talent scout seeing us there, he got 0:52:04.600 --> 0:52:08.120 a publishing deal with the Richmond Organization, which is a 0:52:08.160 --> 0:52:11.719 big publishing house in Manhattan and they've got branches all 0:52:11.760 --> 0:52:17.120 over the world. So Howie Richmond listened to my songs 0:52:17.120 --> 0:52:22.400 for weeks on end and brought me into his office 0:52:22.440 --> 0:52:24.360 one day and he said, Tony, I've got to have 0:52:24.400 --> 0:52:27.799 a serious talk with you. And I got terrified. He 0:52:27.920 --> 0:52:32.000 was the CEO. I got terrified, and I said, okay. 0:52:32.840 --> 0:52:36.040 So I went to his office and he said, Tony, 0:52:36.840 --> 0:52:39.120 I've got to tell you you've put in a lot 0:52:39.120 --> 0:52:41.600 of songs. I've listened to everything. I've listened to your tapes. 0:52:41.600 --> 0:52:47.480 He goes, I don't like your songs. Got to tell 0:52:47.480 --> 0:52:50.480 you the truth, and I go and my face talk 0:52:50.520 --> 0:52:53.840 about crestfallen. I nearly my jaw dropped. I never was 0:52:53.880 --> 0:52:57.319 expecting that. So in the next breath he says, but 0:52:57.400 --> 0:52:59.920 I like your tape recordings. He says, I like you 0:53:00.080 --> 0:53:03.440 recordings very much. He goes, I would like you to 0:53:03.480 --> 0:53:07.040 make the house record producer. I have all these kids 0:53:07.080 --> 0:53:09.200 here who write music and all that, but we don't 0:53:09.200 --> 0:53:12.440 have good recording facilities. I can't get decent demos. They 0:53:12.440 --> 0:53:15.040 sound horrible because your demos, what do you do? And 0:53:15.080 --> 0:53:17.040 all that? And I go, well, I've got two machines 0:53:17.080 --> 0:53:19.280 at home, and I do all this bouncing like Les Paul, 0:53:19.360 --> 0:53:23.640 does you know I have five guitars and two basses 0:53:23.680 --> 0:53:26.000 and things like that. I hit a pillow for a 0:53:26.080 --> 0:53:28.279 kick drum and things like that. So he set me 0:53:28.360 --> 0:53:31.120 up with the studio in the Richmond Organization. This is 0:53:31.160 --> 0:53:35.600 a fifty ninth street in Columbus Circle. And I worked 0:53:35.600 --> 0:53:37.600 there for about a year. I was getting paid to 0:53:37.640 --> 0:53:40.600 do all this and not making any records of my 0:53:40.640 --> 0:53:44.840 own anymore. But at the water fountain, the water cooler, 0:53:44.840 --> 0:53:47.960 one day I happen to be there at the same 0:53:48.000 --> 0:53:52.040 time as this very tall, distinguished gentleman was. He had 0:53:52.760 --> 0:53:55.320 silvery curly hair. He was wearing a jacket and a 0:53:55.400 --> 0:53:59.440 soup and no tie. And he said, she said one thing. 0:53:59.480 --> 0:54:05.760 He said, Hellaire an English accent, and I go, you're English. 0:54:05.960 --> 0:54:08.239 I was like, the first english person I ever met 0:54:08.239 --> 0:54:11.200 my life. He goes, oh, yes, I am. My name 0:54:11.239 --> 0:54:14.520 is Danny Cordell. I work in England. And I said, 0:54:14.880 --> 0:54:18.160 my gosh. He said what's your name? I go Tony Visconti, 0:54:18.360 --> 0:54:20.640 I said, and he says, what do you do here? 0:54:20.680 --> 0:54:23.320 I go, well, I'm Tony Visconti and I'm the house 0:54:23.320 --> 0:54:27.840 record producer. And he goes, ah, my American cousin. I go, 0:54:27.920 --> 0:54:29.439 what do you mean by that? He goes, well, I'm 0:54:29.440 --> 0:54:33.319 the house record producer for this company in London. Same thing. 0:54:33.360 --> 0:54:37.319 It's the same job. And I went, that's fantastic, you know. 0:54:37.719 --> 0:54:41.320 And we sipped a few more cups of water and 0:54:41.360 --> 0:54:42.920 I said to him what are you doing here? And 0:54:43.200 --> 0:54:47.880 he goes, I'm recording a track for Georgie Fame. It's 0:54:47.920 --> 0:54:50.279 a big, big British artist at the time, very jazz 0:54:50.320 --> 0:54:54.439 orientated artist. And he said, I'm going to record at 0:54:54.680 --> 0:54:56.920 I've got a session book at A and R studios. 0:54:57.719 --> 0:55:01.160 The R was Phil ramon phil Ramone Studio, which was 0:55:01.200 --> 0:55:03.880 Hallowed Ground. I had never been in there, but this 0:55:04.040 --> 0:55:07.040 is cool. I go, well, that's fantastic. Can I see 0:55:07.040 --> 0:55:09.440 the charts, you know. He told me he had Clark 0:55:09.560 --> 0:55:13.160 Terry on trumpet. I adored Clock Terry, one of the 0:55:13.160 --> 0:55:18.040 greatest jazz musicians ever, trumpeters who ever lived. And I said, 0:55:18.040 --> 0:55:20.719 can I see the music? And he said, I don't 0:55:20.719 --> 0:55:22.960 have any charts. I don't have any music. And I go, 0:55:23.880 --> 0:55:26.880 how do you do it in the UK UK? And 0:55:26.920 --> 0:55:29.200 he says, well, we booked the studio for three in 0:55:29.239 --> 0:55:33.800 the afternoon. I hire a bunch of musicians and we 0:55:34.400 --> 0:55:37.719 play a demo and then we'd start rolling some spliffs, 0:55:38.200 --> 0:55:42.000 and we smoke some weed, you know, and we just 0:55:42.080 --> 0:55:44.600 work all day until maybe by eleven o'clock at night, 0:55:44.640 --> 0:55:47.120 we've got it, you know, we've got the track. And 0:55:47.160 --> 0:55:50.239 I said, Denny, this is New York City. We have 0:55:50.320 --> 0:55:53.920 the local eight oh two Musicians Union. You will be 0:55:54.120 --> 0:55:57.279 crucified if you ask Clark Terry to write down these 0:55:57.320 --> 0:55:59.640 trumpet parts that you're playing to me on this tape. 0:56:00.080 --> 0:56:01.920 He'll do it, but you get it. You'll get a 0:56:01.960 --> 0:56:03.960 thousand dollar bill for it. You know, you can't ask 0:56:04.040 --> 0:56:06.799 Clock Terry to write the charts, because what am I 0:56:06.840 --> 0:56:09.440 going to do? I said, I can read and write music. 0:56:10.400 --> 0:56:13.040 So I wrote the chart. I wrote the chord changes 0:56:13.719 --> 0:56:17.279 indicated in which bar like in bar number thirty drum fill. 0:56:17.360 --> 0:56:19.160 I just wrote the words drum fill. I'm not going 0:56:19.160 --> 0:56:21.040 to write a drum fill. I'll leave it to the 0:56:21.080 --> 0:56:23.680 clever drummer who we booked. But I had to write 0:56:23.719 --> 0:56:27.040 Clark Terry's parts out. It was a very strict written thing. 0:56:27.520 --> 0:56:30.480 This took me a good part of an hour. We 0:56:30.880 --> 0:56:33.960 slammed it on the Xerox. We had these new Xerox 0:56:34.000 --> 0:56:38.279 machines and ran down forty eighth Street in Manhattan with 0:56:39.040 --> 0:56:41.719 about eight eight parts, put them in front of all 0:56:41.719 --> 0:56:45.879 the musicians, and right away I saw clock Terry right away. 0:56:45.880 --> 0:56:48.759 He starts going up up, but he starts playing it 0:56:48.800 --> 0:56:51.080 off the sheet music, and I look at Danny, and 0:56:51.120 --> 0:56:53.840 Danny looks at me. Danny's got this big grin on 0:56:53.880 --> 0:56:56.799 his face. This isn't going to be like London. This 0:56:56.880 --> 0:56:58.960 is we're going to get this done. When I told 0:56:59.040 --> 0:57:02.279 him he'd be crucified, he was very, very worried by 0:57:02.280 --> 0:57:04.520 the way. He had just produced a wider shade of 0:57:04.560 --> 0:57:08.719 pale and he was rolling, you know, pop success. But 0:57:08.719 --> 0:57:11.600 he didn't have a lot of money. So this session 0:57:11.719 --> 0:57:16.160 took all of forty five minutes and we had this 0:57:16.360 --> 0:57:20.520 fantastic tracts. The song was because I Love You. It's 0:57:20.560 --> 0:57:24.400 an early Georgie fame hit, and clock Terry was cool. 0:57:24.440 --> 0:57:27.640 Everybody was cool. They liked the fact that it was 0:57:27.760 --> 0:57:32.080 well prepared. So a week two weeks later, he goes 0:57:32.120 --> 0:57:35.280 back to London and he phones me up and says, 0:57:35.880 --> 0:57:41.680 how soon could you get here? I go, Now, I'm 0:57:41.720 --> 0:57:46.360 not doing anything, so he said, okay, He goes, well, 0:57:46.720 --> 0:57:51.080 I'm gonna after I spoke to you, I went to 0:57:51.240 --> 0:57:54.200 I met a few other people, record producers, and I 0:57:54.520 --> 0:57:57.400 even spoke to Phil Specterer asking him to come and 0:57:57.440 --> 0:57:59.800 work for me. I said, oh, you'd be lucky. You've 0:57:59.840 --> 0:58:02.280 got Phil Specks that to work for you. He's not 0:58:02.400 --> 0:58:04.560 that kind of guy, you know, but anyway, he says, 0:58:04.600 --> 0:58:06.320 you're the guy I want. He says, the way you 0:58:06.360 --> 0:58:09.200 work you did that session was great. I need someone 0:58:09.240 --> 0:58:12.160 to translate what I hear in my head into music 0:58:12.240 --> 0:58:16.200 into musical notes. And two weeks later I was in 0:58:16.240 --> 0:58:19.840 London and went to the studio, but my very first 0:58:19.920 --> 0:58:23.600 day I was terribly jet lagged. But then he took 0:58:23.680 --> 0:58:26.480 me to a Manfred Man session which he was producing. 0:58:27.040 --> 0:58:29.320 He was producing too many people, and he really did 0:58:29.440 --> 0:58:33.959 need an assistant, and after about two hours he left 0:58:34.000 --> 0:58:37.240 me with Manfred Man on my own. Bob, I had 0:58:37.240 --> 0:58:42.240 no experience, no experience dealing with especially with British people 0:58:42.520 --> 0:58:48.840 who spoke a different language basically, so they hated me. 0:58:51.720 --> 0:58:54.800 They didn't like my American accent. So I thought I'll 0:58:54.840 --> 0:58:56.640 be a little cheerful. So I was in the studio 0:58:56.760 --> 0:58:58.880 and we did a lot of takes. We did up 0:58:58.880 --> 0:59:02.640 to six takes, and they were already in misery, these guys. 0:59:02.640 --> 0:59:06.320 They wanted Denny and they got this young American punk instead. 0:59:07.000 --> 0:59:09.120 So I said, okay, here we go. We're going to 0:59:09.160 --> 0:59:14.160 do take seven, Lucky take seven, and they went oh, 0:59:14.200 --> 0:59:17.800 they all audibly groaned. I was like being a DJ, 0:59:18.080 --> 0:59:22.200 you know, Lucky takes seven. And so when Denny come back, 0:59:22.360 --> 0:59:24.960 came back, we finally got a good take and he 0:59:25.080 --> 0:59:28.240 listened to what we had done, and they did as well. 0:59:28.280 --> 0:59:30.160 They warmed up to me at the very very end, 0:59:30.960 --> 0:59:34.280 but that was was It was horrible. My first day 0:59:34.360 --> 0:59:37.760 was so horrible. And the ability not to understand them, like, 0:59:37.800 --> 0:59:40.040 you know, they've got different words, like if they're happy 0:59:40.040 --> 0:59:43.440 about something, they're chuffed. I didn't know that word chuffed. 0:59:44.000 --> 0:59:47.280 I didn't know what chuffed meant. Sounds like a chimney 0:59:47.360 --> 0:59:52.080 going what the hell does that mean? You know? So 0:59:53.200 --> 0:59:55.600 that was it. That's how I got there, and that's 0:59:55.680 --> 0:59:58.960 basically the beginning of my career as what I do today. 1:00:00.320 --> 1:00:02.360 Okay, so play it out. You're in London, now you 1:00:02.440 --> 1:00:04.760 work with man from Man, You're working with Denny. What 1:00:04.960 --> 1:00:06.000 comes next? 1:00:06.760 --> 1:00:09.120 Well with Denny I played. I went onto all kinds 1:00:09.160 --> 1:00:13.800 of sessions, including more another Georgie Fame session two. I 1:00:13.840 --> 1:00:18.520 tagged along on his Parcol Harrem sessions and helped again. 1:00:18.600 --> 1:00:21.439 He left me in charge one day, which went down 1:00:21.440 --> 1:00:23.920 a little bit better. They they knew me already. They 1:00:23.960 --> 1:00:26.439 I came to a few before he left me with them, 1:00:26.480 --> 1:00:28.640 and they they knew I was on their side, and 1:00:28.680 --> 1:00:32.200 I knew what I was talking about. So I remember 1:00:32.240 --> 1:00:35.520 I produced a whole track from scratch called Magdalene my 1:00:35.640 --> 1:00:40.560 regal Zonophone, all in one day. Denny was in awe 1:00:40.600 --> 1:00:41.960 of that. He came back, he goes, you did this 1:00:42.000 --> 1:00:43.920 all in one day? He was He was slow and 1:00:43.960 --> 1:00:47.280 I was fast. So after that I worked with his 1:00:47.320 --> 1:00:51.720 group called the Move, which was Birmingham's answer answer to 1:00:51.720 --> 1:00:55.720 the Beatles, like Birmingham was called the Birmingham Beatles at 1:00:55.760 --> 1:00:58.880 one point because they wanted they emulated everything the Beatles did, 1:00:59.360 --> 1:01:02.600 and I had had quite a few hit records with them, 1:01:02.640 --> 1:01:06.760 both as a co producer and an arranger. The first 1:01:06.800 --> 1:01:09.800 record I did for them was a song called Flowers 1:01:09.800 --> 1:01:14.440 in the Rain, and I recorded, you know, everybody was 1:01:14.440 --> 1:01:17.200 doing Elden or Rigby. They wanted strings and all that stuff, 1:01:17.320 --> 1:01:19.520 and I thought it's time we got off the strings 1:01:19.520 --> 1:01:22.680 and onto some other classical instruments. So because it was 1:01:22.720 --> 1:01:26.160 Flowers in the Rain, I thought of Mendelssohn and I thought, 1:01:26.160 --> 1:01:29.440 I'm going to write something pastoral and for that you 1:01:29.520 --> 1:01:32.360 need a flute, you need an obo, a clarinet and 1:01:32.440 --> 1:01:36.480 a French horn. That's that's a win combination that normally 1:01:36.680 --> 1:01:41.360 plays pastoral music. So it was a wacky arrangement I wrote. 1:01:41.960 --> 1:01:45.840 It was reached number two in the charts and when 1:01:46.120 --> 1:01:48.360 Radio one in England opened, you know they had these 1:01:48.440 --> 1:01:51.120 this corny radio before, but Radio One was the pop station. 1:01:52.000 --> 1:01:53.760 I listened to it at eight o'clock in the morning. 1:01:53.760 --> 1:01:56.360 I wanted to hear that this station opening up. The 1:01:56.560 --> 1:02:00.280 DJ Tony Blackburn the first record he played It was 1:02:00.320 --> 1:02:03.760 Flowers in the Rain by the Move, and I nearly 1:02:04.080 --> 1:02:07.360 screamed and jumped off my couch. You know, it was 1:02:07.960 --> 1:02:09.360 just a fantastic experience. 1:02:09.400 --> 1:02:11.560 Well, just to stop there for a second. That was 1:02:11.600 --> 1:02:14.000 an interesting band. They used to come to America, they 1:02:14.040 --> 1:02:17.520 canceled tours, they broke up, whatever. But roy Wood was 1:02:17.640 --> 1:02:22.960 seen as the talent and jeff Lynn was a secondary character, 1:02:23.040 --> 1:02:25.680 even though we sang a certain amount. Then there was 1:02:25.720 --> 1:02:28.320 the first Elo, then they split apart. There was roy 1:02:28.360 --> 1:02:31.800 Wood's Wizard, and then ultimately jeff Lynn goes on to 1:02:31.920 --> 1:02:35.400 this incredible career with Elo and more. Did you have 1:02:35.440 --> 1:02:37.960 any idea at that point in time? Was he just 1:02:38.000 --> 1:02:39.120 another guy in the band? 1:02:39.760 --> 1:02:44.160 Well, when they formed Not Yellow, what did you say? Wizard? 1:02:45.200 --> 1:02:48.919 Roy wanted me to play keyboards in the band, and 1:02:49.600 --> 1:02:54.000 he was dead serious. And I said, Roy, he thought 1:02:54.080 --> 1:02:57.920 I played keyboards because I wrote arrangements. I had already 1:02:58.080 --> 1:03:00.760 written three arrangements for them by that time. I said, no, 1:03:00.840 --> 1:03:04.920 I actually write them on the classical guitar. And he says, well, 1:03:04.960 --> 1:03:08.880 we've got enough guitar players in the band. Sure, so 1:03:08.960 --> 1:03:11.880 you're sure you can't play keyboards? They go, no, I 1:03:11.920 --> 1:03:14.280 have to give up on that. So Jeff Lynn came 1:03:14.280 --> 1:03:17.600 in around that time, and you know they did a 1:03:17.600 --> 1:03:21.200 great job. Well that worked, but I gave birth to 1:03:21.240 --> 1:03:23.280 some of that. Some of my soul is in the 1:03:23.360 --> 1:03:26.320 In the subsequent things that Roy did, we always got 1:03:26.360 --> 1:03:28.040 on really great. He's a great guy. 1:03:28.640 --> 1:03:31.680 Okay, So from the move, keep telling, let's what happened. 1:03:32.880 --> 1:03:37.200 Well, from the move, my boss said it's time you 1:03:37.320 --> 1:03:40.280 got a band of your own. He goes, you know 1:03:40.280 --> 1:03:42.600 how to do it? Conduct a session on your own. Now, 1:03:42.640 --> 1:03:44.600 you know, I was with him by his side for 1:03:44.640 --> 1:03:50.320 a whole year, and so he tried me out with 1:03:50.360 --> 1:03:53.560 a guy called Bedo. First all, he walked into our offices. 1:03:53.600 --> 1:03:58.160 Bid is a famous Bollywood composer, but he came to London, 1:03:59.000 --> 1:04:02.840 as he called himself the Indian Elvis, and in truth 1:04:02.880 --> 1:04:05.760 he had a voice just like Elvis Presley, but he 1:04:05.840 --> 1:04:07.520 had a bit of an accent. So I made one 1:04:07.560 --> 1:04:10.320 record with Bido and I said, and then he said, 1:04:10.320 --> 1:04:13.040 well I'm not going to It didn't do anything, and 1:04:13.600 --> 1:04:16.040 we didn't leave acrimoniously. It just didn't do anything. So 1:04:16.200 --> 1:04:19.200 David dropped Bido and he said, you pick your band. 1:04:19.240 --> 1:04:20.960 You go out and pick your band. Who you want 1:04:21.000 --> 1:04:23.600 to work with? I said, okay. So I heard this 1:04:23.680 --> 1:04:28.000 band called Tyrannosaurus Rex played every weekend on John Peel's 1:04:28.080 --> 1:04:31.800 radio show, and I happened to see the Underground. I 1:04:31.800 --> 1:04:34.080 got a copy of the underground newspaper. I forget what 1:04:34.120 --> 1:04:37.320 it was called now and Tyrannosaurus Rex we're playing right 1:04:37.320 --> 1:04:40.800 around the corner from my office on Tottenham Court Road 1:04:40.840 --> 1:04:44.200 in England. So after work, I noted the time it 1:04:44.280 --> 1:04:47.560 was seven pm. I left work at six pm, went 1:04:47.600 --> 1:04:50.560 to the corner pub, a pub called a Tutor. I 1:04:50.720 --> 1:04:53.960 fortified myself with a big pint of ale, and then 1:04:54.000 --> 1:04:56.440 I walked down to Tottenham Court Road and went to 1:04:56.480 --> 1:05:01.640 that nightclub where Tyrannosaurus Rex was playing. And I walked 1:05:01.640 --> 1:05:04.960 down the steps. It was like red light, dim light dim, 1:05:05.000 --> 1:05:08.200 red lighted steps, and I hear the band playing coming 1:05:08.280 --> 1:05:12.240 up through the stairwell and it was dead quiet. And 1:05:12.440 --> 1:05:14.800 I'm used to going to gigs where the band the 1:05:15.120 --> 1:05:18.200 audience is clapping, singing along and all that, and I thought, 1:05:18.480 --> 1:05:21.640 no one's there. I walk in that room and there 1:05:21.640 --> 1:05:26.120 were about seventy five kids sitting on the floor, cross legged, 1:05:26.680 --> 1:05:32.280 listening attentively to Mark and Steve sing these songs. I 1:05:32.320 --> 1:05:35.120 have never seen that in my life. They weren't singing along, 1:05:35.200 --> 1:05:40.520 they were just worshiping him. So I approached the group afterwards, 1:05:40.600 --> 1:05:43.520 and I approached the drummer first, because I didn't even 1:05:43.520 --> 1:05:46.240 know if Mark was like an alien. Mark Bowling was 1:05:46.320 --> 1:05:49.400 weird and he sang in this very affected voice, which 1:05:49.960 --> 1:05:52.400 I thought, maybe he's French. You know, I didn't know 1:05:52.400 --> 1:05:56.560 how to approach him anyway. Steve said, just don't talk 1:05:56.600 --> 1:05:59.160 to me, man, talk to him. He's the leader. So 1:05:59.240 --> 1:06:03.520 I gave Mark my business card and Mark followed up. 1:06:03.560 --> 1:06:06.840 The next day. He came to our offices and he 1:06:06.920 --> 1:06:09.600 phoned from the street. He said, I just happened to 1:06:09.640 --> 1:06:12.440 be passing your offices and I'd like to come up 1:06:12.640 --> 1:06:16.360 an audition for Denny Cordell. So that's how it began. 1:06:16.440 --> 1:06:20.400 With my very first talent scouting produced came up with 1:06:20.560 --> 1:06:22.520 Mark Bolan and Tyrannosaurus Rex. 1:06:23.040 --> 1:06:26.920 Okay, but they were an acoustic act. Then how did 1:06:26.920 --> 1:06:30.040 it end up becoming an electric act? And called t Rex? 1:06:30.720 --> 1:06:33.000 Well, that was about all I could handle. You know, 1:06:33.480 --> 1:06:37.120 two people I could handle. I could play the psychology 1:06:37.160 --> 1:06:42.280 games with two people. They had like percussion in the band, 1:06:42.440 --> 1:06:49.040 bongo drums, conga drums and all that, and they Denny said, okay, 1:06:49.080 --> 1:06:50.640 we'll tell you I like them, we'll take them on 1:06:50.680 --> 1:06:57.040 as our token underground group. That was exact words, token 1:06:57.120 --> 1:07:00.120 underground group. And already there was a very popular or 1:07:00.120 --> 1:07:03.160 in England, a band in England called the Incredible String Band, 1:07:03.720 --> 1:07:06.600 and Torontosaurus Rex were not unlike them, so there was 1:07:07.080 --> 1:07:10.640 a big market for this kind of rock folk early 1:07:10.680 --> 1:07:14.160 you know, psychedelic folk people will call it. So we 1:07:14.200 --> 1:07:19.320 made these kind of psychedelic rock folk records for three 1:07:19.360 --> 1:07:23.040 albums with the acoustic instruments, and then by the end 1:07:23.040 --> 1:07:25.440 of the second album, Mark used to come around to 1:07:25.480 --> 1:07:27.520 my apartment and he would always pick up my Fender 1:07:27.560 --> 1:07:31.240 Stratocaster guitar and play it, and he ended up borrowing 1:07:31.240 --> 1:07:34.000 it on the third album, and then that's when we 1:07:34.160 --> 1:07:38.080 started going electric, but not the drum kit yet, except 1:07:38.480 --> 1:07:41.680 everything had to be like miniature. So they did get 1:07:41.680 --> 1:07:45.000 a drum kit for the next album, where it was 1:07:45.080 --> 1:07:48.960 a toy drum set from Hamley's Toy Shop in London, 1:07:49.360 --> 1:07:52.320 so it's actually a drum kit for like an eight 1:07:52.360 --> 1:07:57.080 year old. But we detuned the drums and Steve played 1:07:57.120 --> 1:08:00.640 the hell out of these drums. So it's on especially 1:08:00.680 --> 1:08:04.120 on a song called Cat Black the Wizard's Hat, you 1:08:04.160 --> 1:08:06.200 can hear this full drum kit, but it's actually a 1:08:06.200 --> 1:08:09.160 toy drum kit called from a company called Chet, from 1:08:09.160 --> 1:08:10.600 a company called Chad Valley. 1:08:12.280 --> 1:08:15.560 Okay, in America, the incredible stream band I think was 1:08:15.560 --> 1:08:18.400 on Warner Brothers. They had a certain amount of a presence. 1:08:19.000 --> 1:08:22.000 T Rex was almost nothing. You saw write a White 1:08:22.080 --> 1:08:26.280 Swan in the bins? What was the profile of the 1:08:26.479 --> 1:08:27.519 group in the UK? 1:08:29.040 --> 1:08:31.240 By the time they did right a White Swan they 1:08:31.240 --> 1:08:34.280 were Mark was quite famous because he was so cute 1:08:34.360 --> 1:08:37.800 and he was a teenage He noticed that the girl 1:08:38.000 --> 1:08:40.639 the audience was made mainly of girls who was screaming 1:08:40.680 --> 1:08:43.599 while he was on stage. This is towards the fourth 1:08:43.640 --> 1:08:48.479 album and with the electric guitar, and he borrowed my bass. 1:08:49.320 --> 1:08:52.000 Uh this is this is very funny because wider White 1:08:52.080 --> 1:08:54.640 Swan is an a flat which means he had to 1:08:54.680 --> 1:08:58.320 play it with the capo on the fourth fret of 1:08:58.360 --> 1:09:01.400 the guitar. And then when he borrowed my bass to 1:09:01.600 --> 1:09:04.719 play the bass part, he had to put the capo 1:09:04.840 --> 1:09:07.519 on the fourth fret of the bass, which I never 1:09:07.600 --> 1:09:09.240 saw a bass player do in my life, put a 1:09:09.280 --> 1:09:12.360 capo on a bass, but he played all the guitar 1:09:12.439 --> 1:09:17.080 and the bass. And by this time we had Mickey 1:09:17.160 --> 1:09:21.440 Finn in the band. Steve Peregrine took was fired unceremoniously 1:09:21.479 --> 1:09:26.040 fired and that record took about two hours to make, 1:09:26.200 --> 1:09:30.080 Right a White Swan, and we put it out. You know, 1:09:30.080 --> 1:09:33.720 we always put out singles as Tyrannosaurus Rex, but they 1:09:33.840 --> 1:09:36.400 didn't do very well. It never did very well. We 1:09:36.479 --> 1:09:38.759 did a name change. We called a band t Rex. 1:09:39.800 --> 1:09:42.720 John Peel reluctantly played it. He thought that they had 1:09:42.760 --> 1:09:45.559 sold out and he was ready to discard them quickly 1:09:45.600 --> 1:09:49.520 because he defeated the underdog and now Mark was becoming popular. 1:09:49.840 --> 1:09:53.120 That was like, you know, an eth to John Field. 1:09:53.960 --> 1:09:56.400 But he played it and then Radio one took it 1:09:56.479 --> 1:10:00.040 up and that record was played night and day, and 1:10:00.200 --> 1:10:04.280 we sold We was selling upwards of about six thousand 1:10:04.439 --> 1:10:07.799 a day. In those days. You know, there was no internet, 1:10:08.439 --> 1:10:10.439 so you had to go out and buy a record 1:10:10.439 --> 1:10:12.840 if you liked it, and maybe you taped it off 1:10:12.880 --> 1:10:16.839 your friend's record player. But basically record sales were enormous 1:10:16.840 --> 1:10:21.160 in those days. He was now he was a megastar overnight. 1:10:27.200 --> 1:10:31.200 People don't understand how big he really was. He was 1:10:31.280 --> 1:10:33.360 as big as they get. 1:10:33.680 --> 1:10:35.920 He was as big as the Beatles, and Ringo said 1:10:35.920 --> 1:10:39.799 so himself when he made the movie with him, he said, 1:10:40.520 --> 1:10:43.639 he said when, And then Mark went four piece as well. 1:10:43.640 --> 1:10:46.559 By then they were drawing the same crowds and the 1:10:46.600 --> 1:10:50.320 same reactions, probably even bigger crowds than the Beatles. Because 1:10:50.320 --> 1:10:53.519 the Beatles never really played arenas apart from the say 1:10:53.640 --> 1:10:56.559 stadium or something like that. Mark was playing arenas by 1:10:56.640 --> 1:11:01.280 nineteen seventy two in the UK, not so good in 1:11:01.320 --> 1:11:04.880 America though he never quite broke the back of that one. 1:11:05.200 --> 1:11:07.800 So how did you feel having this incredible success? 1:11:08.439 --> 1:11:10.680 I loved it. You know, now all my dreams are 1:11:10.680 --> 1:11:13.080 coming true. I wanted to be a successful record producer. 1:11:13.520 --> 1:11:16.400 I'm also singing backups on these records. I'm very much 1:11:16.400 --> 1:11:18.240 a part of the band. When they're in the studio, 1:11:19.320 --> 1:11:23.800 we get on, we get along as friends. It was 1:11:23.960 --> 1:11:26.400 the dream everybody wants to happen when they get into 1:11:26.439 --> 1:11:27.200 the music business. 1:11:27.200 --> 1:11:27.360 You know. 1:11:27.479 --> 1:11:31.360 I had about three solid years of t rextasy. It 1:11:31.439 --> 1:11:34.840 was called by the press, and Mark was controversial. He 1:11:34.920 --> 1:11:38.439 used to do the wickedest interviews. He would really be 1:11:38.520 --> 1:11:42.280 insulting to the journalists and just to get controversy. You know, 1:11:42.360 --> 1:11:45.160 they try to tear him apart, but they were actually 1:11:45.160 --> 1:11:49.840 giving him more ink than the normal rock star because 1:11:49.840 --> 1:11:51.800 because they wanted to tear him down. You know, it 1:11:51.920 --> 1:11:53.240 was so cool. You knew what to do. 1:11:54.400 --> 1:11:57.360 And how did Bengagong get it on come together? 1:11:58.840 --> 1:12:03.160 That was on a trip to America that we both 1:12:03.400 --> 1:12:06.760 coincidentally went on at the same time. He got a 1:12:06.800 --> 1:12:11.360 mini tour planned for him and it was to start 1:12:11.400 --> 1:12:15.720 in New York and then they would fly to LA 1:12:16.040 --> 1:12:18.800 to work with Flow and Eddie from the Turtles, and 1:12:18.840 --> 1:12:21.640 they got flowin Eddie got a studio and I just 1:12:21.680 --> 1:12:23.599 happened to be there to see my parents. I came 1:12:23.640 --> 1:12:25.519 home for a trip to Brooklyn to see my parents, 1:12:26.000 --> 1:12:28.519 but Mark knew I was there and he said, let's 1:12:28.560 --> 1:12:32.120 make a record you're here. So we hired Media Media 1:12:32.240 --> 1:12:35.280 Sound in Manhattan. It was like a jazz studio, but 1:12:35.360 --> 1:12:38.160 we did Jeepster and Monolith. We did a couple of 1:12:38.200 --> 1:12:41.640 tracks that would later appear on Electric Warrior. Then the 1:12:41.720 --> 1:12:43.840 trip to La came up, because do you want to 1:12:43.880 --> 1:12:45.640 go with us? You want to go to La, I go. 1:12:45.840 --> 1:12:49.120 Of course I do. So we flew out to La 1:12:49.520 --> 1:12:52.760 Flowin Eddie arranged Wali Hyder's studio for us, which was 1:12:52.840 --> 1:12:55.439 like one of the best studios in La at the time, 1:12:55.960 --> 1:12:59.200 and that's how we recorded Get It on Bangagong and 1:12:59.240 --> 1:13:03.080 I got some lovely photos from there. And they made 1:13:03.080 --> 1:13:05.720 the Jewish connection too. When Flo and Eddi, who were 1:13:05.720 --> 1:13:08.679 both Jewish, found out that Mark was Jewish, there's something 1:13:08.800 --> 1:13:12.800 deeper about that relationship took place, you know, it was 1:13:12.840 --> 1:13:15.880 really great. And then they started making Yiddish jokes. You know, 1:13:15.920 --> 1:13:19.320 I couldn't believe it. They grew up. Mark grew up 1:13:19.360 --> 1:13:20.960 with you know, he heard these words when he was 1:13:21.000 --> 1:13:22.800 growing up, and so did Flow and Eddie, you know. 1:13:23.040 --> 1:13:24.880 And if you live in New York, no matter if 1:13:24.920 --> 1:13:28.559 your Italian friend or Jewish, you learn Yiddish. That's one 1:13:28.560 --> 1:13:31.840 of the languages you pick up the words. So we 1:13:31.960 --> 1:13:35.160 had sessions that were so funny and I left the 1:13:35.200 --> 1:13:37.960 tape running, you know, just cracking jokes all the time. 1:13:38.840 --> 1:13:42.000 And that's how we re recorded about four or five 1:13:42.080 --> 1:13:45.160 more songs at Wally Hiders studios with Flowin Eddi at 1:13:45.160 --> 1:13:47.439 their auspices because they made it really easy for us 1:13:47.520 --> 1:13:50.799 to work there, and then the rest of the tracks 1:13:50.880 --> 1:13:54.400 were on the flight back to London. We took up 1:13:54.439 --> 1:13:57.640 in Tried Studios in which was a great studio in 1:13:57.840 --> 1:14:00.960 Soho and finished the rest of the album. It was 1:14:01.000 --> 1:14:04.759 like a Frankenstein album, all different consoles, all different sounds. 1:14:05.600 --> 1:14:08.800 But I mixed it in Tridon Studios so that in 1:14:08.800 --> 1:14:12.879 that way I made it a more cohesive, cohesive sounding record. 1:14:13.520 --> 1:14:16.080 But that was we were in Seventh HEAVENO. 1:14:16.160 --> 1:14:20.599 Okay. But the sound of the guitar on Bang of Gong, 1:14:20.840 --> 1:14:23.040 can you tell us anything about getting it? It just 1:14:23.080 --> 1:14:24.719 has an incredible sound. 1:14:25.479 --> 1:14:31.160 Yes, he had a two pedals. One was a wah 1:14:31.240 --> 1:14:33.599 wah and the other ones. You know what a wah 1:14:33.640 --> 1:14:38.160 wah is that it goes so and another one was 1:14:38.240 --> 1:14:41.680 a treble booster which had had had a distortion and 1:14:41.880 --> 1:14:45.639 crunch to the sound and he had that almost maxed out. 1:14:45.760 --> 1:14:48.360 So between the wah wah, which if you don't move 1:14:48.439 --> 1:14:50.320 the wah wah, you could move it to a certain 1:14:50.360 --> 1:14:53.960 position and get a certain tone, but when you move 1:14:54.000 --> 1:14:56.040 it up and down you get the wow effect. So 1:14:56.160 --> 1:14:59.320 between positioning the pedal in a certain way and having 1:14:59.320 --> 1:15:02.600 the screaming bird put in the circuit. He got this 1:15:02.720 --> 1:15:05.960 crunchy sound, and then I would go up and you know, 1:15:06.040 --> 1:15:08.120 like let's make it loud, OR'd turn up the Marshall 1:15:08.200 --> 1:15:11.519 lamp and all that, and basically that was the sound. 1:15:12.160 --> 1:15:16.639 What I did add in the mixing, which he loved, 1:15:16.880 --> 1:15:20.200 was slapback. He was so keen on the you know, 1:15:20.240 --> 1:15:23.800 the Elvis Presley slap back, a Wop Boba loom up, 1:15:23.800 --> 1:15:26.599 the Little Richard's slap back and all that stuff, and 1:15:27.000 --> 1:15:29.960 he wanted on both his guitar and his voice, and 1:15:30.040 --> 1:15:34.320 it became a signature sound. Having the kick drum to 1:15:34.400 --> 1:15:37.040 the four was another sound. We were one of the 1:15:37.080 --> 1:15:40.680 early doers of that, you know kick You listen to 1:15:40.840 --> 1:15:43.080 early R and B you can barely hear the kick drum. 1:15:43.560 --> 1:15:46.640 But suddenly in the seventies people were saying, what what 1:15:46.880 --> 1:15:48.680 what the kick drums a great thing? Why is it 1:15:48.720 --> 1:15:51.320 so quiet in the mix. So we had the drums 1:15:51.400 --> 1:15:53.560 up pretty loud. We even put slap back on the 1:15:53.680 --> 1:15:57.599 drums too, for the tom phills. And I said, after 1:15:57.640 --> 1:15:59.479 about two years of this, I said, you can get 1:15:59.479 --> 1:16:00.960 me out of bed at five in the morning and 1:16:01.000 --> 1:16:03.360 put me behind a console. I'll get you that sound 1:16:03.640 --> 1:16:06.439 in half an hour. You know, it was a formula. 1:16:06.520 --> 1:16:10.240 We invented a formula and we were accused of formulizing 1:16:10.280 --> 1:16:12.400 the sound and I said, yep, that's what we're doing. 1:16:12.640 --> 1:16:15.680 You're absolutely Did you know. 1:16:17.280 --> 1:16:19.639 Get It On was gonna be a gigantic kit when 1:16:19.680 --> 1:16:20.320 you finished it? 1:16:21.200 --> 1:16:24.320 No, we honestly didn't. We were doing everything the same 1:16:24.360 --> 1:16:27.800 we always did, Bob, and we put singles out. They 1:16:27.800 --> 1:16:31.600 weren't hits, minor hits, but not major hits. Something was 1:16:31.720 --> 1:16:34.920 right about this one. It was more brevity in the 1:16:35.000 --> 1:16:37.800 lyrics that helped. You know, Mark was writing these sagas 1:16:38.000 --> 1:16:41.000 in his earlier work. They were based on Tolkien and 1:16:41.080 --> 1:16:45.160 you know, full of dwarfs, elves and things like that, 1:16:45.880 --> 1:16:50.960 and he just did the right stuff. There's couplets and 1:16:51.000 --> 1:16:53.960 then the chorus, get it on, Banga gong, get it on. 1:16:54.120 --> 1:16:56.360 That's the chorus. That's the shortest chorus he had written 1:16:56.360 --> 1:17:00.400 in his life. And that was the secret brevity. And 1:17:00.479 --> 1:17:03.120 the strings that was another thing. He got very superstitious 1:17:03.160 --> 1:17:06.920 about the strings. When we did our next single, gosh, 1:17:06.920 --> 1:17:11.000 I can't remember what it was, oh metal Guru, he said, 1:17:11.400 --> 1:17:15.439 let's go in, let's just mix it and I go, Mark, 1:17:16.360 --> 1:17:19.240 the strings, we've had the strings on ride a white 1:17:19.240 --> 1:17:22.360 Swan and get it on. I think it's part of 1:17:22.400 --> 1:17:26.519 our good luck. And he turned pale. He goes, you're right, 1:17:26.840 --> 1:17:30.160 let's have strings on hot hot love. It was hot love. 1:17:30.240 --> 1:17:33.800 Let's have strings on hot love. So that was it 1:17:33.880 --> 1:17:38.839 from then to the very end. I did eight albums 1:17:38.840 --> 1:17:41.600 with him. I had to get down and write some 1:17:41.680 --> 1:17:44.240 pretty nifty strings every time we made an album. 1:17:44.280 --> 1:17:49.719 Afterwards, Okay, the Slider Summer of seventy two, I believe 1:17:50.360 --> 1:17:54.720 in the UK gigantic Banya Goong is delayed as a 1:17:54.760 --> 1:17:56.760 hit in the US, and it is a big hit, 1:17:56.880 --> 1:18:01.400 certainly on FM radio formats were changing. The Slider meant 1:18:01.640 --> 1:18:05.680 nothing in America and meant everything in the UK. Do 1:18:05.680 --> 1:18:08.000 you have any insight on that? 1:18:08.000 --> 1:18:11.040 That's interesting. I wasn't aware of that. I know a 1:18:11.040 --> 1:18:14.120 lot of Americans now like the Slider. You know, looking back, 1:18:14.520 --> 1:18:17.479 it is a fantastic album. It's the best of the three, 1:18:17.600 --> 1:18:20.280 the first three. The next one would be an album 1:18:20.320 --> 1:18:25.920 called Tanks, which tanked. But the Slider was phenomenal, and 1:18:27.560 --> 1:18:30.320 I think Mark was at his best. His guitar playing 1:18:30.400 --> 1:18:32.759 was at his best, his writing was at its best, 1:18:33.560 --> 1:18:37.439 and we took a little more time on it. Another 1:18:37.520 --> 1:18:40.320 funny thing happened on that he stopped using Flow and Eddie. 1:18:40.400 --> 1:18:44.000 We originally had them on one or two tracks, and 1:18:44.040 --> 1:18:48.280 then we went in on another day and he said, 1:18:48.280 --> 1:18:50.639 we're going to do backing vocals. I go, what happened 1:18:50.640 --> 1:18:53.760 to Flow and Eddie? He goes, they copped in attitude 1:18:53.760 --> 1:18:55.960 with me? I go, what happened? What did they say? 1:18:56.000 --> 1:19:02.400 He goes, they wanted to get paid honestly, so I'm 1:19:02.439 --> 1:19:04.719 looking at him. I am getting paid as the producer, 1:19:04.760 --> 1:19:07.800 but you know, not as a backing singer. So that 1:19:07.960 --> 1:19:11.360 was a shame, a real, real shame. I think later on, 1:19:11.560 --> 1:19:14.479 when he in his late late seventies before he died, 1:19:14.720 --> 1:19:16.680 he got back. He got them on one of his 1:19:16.760 --> 1:19:19.200 self produced albums. He got them back again. I hope 1:19:19.200 --> 1:19:20.439 he paid him. I think he did. 1:19:21.439 --> 1:19:28.560 Okay. He ultimately dies in this car accident and Gigantic 1:19:28.640 --> 1:19:31.639 in England. You were the producer. How big a talent 1:19:31.880 --> 1:19:32.719 was Mark Bowlin? 1:19:34.439 --> 1:19:41.040 He was great. His songwriting abilities were enviable, even David said. 1:19:41.880 --> 1:19:45.400 David Bowie said, Mark writes the greatest lyrics and there 1:19:46.360 --> 1:19:52.679 his imagery was incredible, like you know, diamond star halo. 1:19:52.800 --> 1:19:55.360 You wear a diamond star halo. It's beautiful. David wouldn't 1:19:55.360 --> 1:19:57.439 come up with diamond star halo, but then he would 1:19:57.479 --> 1:19:59.920 go on in the same song more metaphors like that, 1:20:00.040 --> 1:20:04.360 you know, crazy ones. And his guitar playing was primitive. 1:20:05.520 --> 1:20:07.400 I worked it out one day. He's got a knowledge 1:20:07.439 --> 1:20:12.599 of seven chords. But oh boy, what he did to 1:20:12.640 --> 1:20:15.080 some people say, oh but oh boy, what he did 1:20:15.080 --> 1:20:17.559 with those seven chords. But you know, he would slide 1:20:17.600 --> 1:20:20.000 his guitar up, his capo up and down the fret. 1:20:20.040 --> 1:20:24.559 He could play in any key he wanted. And some 1:20:24.720 --> 1:20:27.519 chords he obviously didn't know. And I wondered why he 1:20:27.520 --> 1:20:29.320 couldn't even figure that out. And I tried to teach 1:20:29.400 --> 1:20:31.720 him these chords. He wouldn't want to learn. He just 1:20:31.920 --> 1:20:36.760 had this. He was formulaic himself, and his records were 1:20:36.800 --> 1:20:40.200 still sounding the same. But why not, because it was 1:20:40.240 --> 1:20:43.360 a really good formula we had going. But I'd say 1:20:43.400 --> 1:20:46.599 his talent was in the songwriting. He must have written 1:20:46.640 --> 1:20:50.120 over two hundred songs, maybe even more than that. 1:20:50.439 --> 1:20:53.560 Okay, you're working for the company when you find Taranosaurus 1:20:53.640 --> 1:20:58.759 Rex today, Well, let's talk pre internet. A record producer 1:20:58.800 --> 1:21:01.719 would get four or five per saying, either from record 1:21:01.760 --> 1:21:05.040 one or when we coop, is it you getting paid 1:21:05.040 --> 1:21:07.720 a producer's fee on every record? What's going on with you? 1:21:09.000 --> 1:21:11.760 So everything up to at the up to the end 1:21:11.800 --> 1:21:14.760 of Electric Warrior, I was getting a royalty and till 1:21:14.840 --> 1:21:17.160 this day, Bob, it's the gift that keeps on giving. 1:21:17.680 --> 1:21:20.320 I get royalties three times a year from that company 1:21:21.000 --> 1:21:24.840 and I recorded a few other acts for them as well. 1:21:25.479 --> 1:21:30.519 But from the Slider they wanted to we had a 1:21:30.600 --> 1:21:36.920 deal and Mark said, I don't know. We had a 1:21:37.000 --> 1:21:40.880 royalty situation for a while. Then his company stopped paying it. 1:21:40.920 --> 1:21:43.920 They said, we feel you've had enough. You know, the 1:21:43.960 --> 1:21:48.960 record's long been paid for. You know, it's sold, and 1:21:49.000 --> 1:21:52.320 we're not selling those those amounts of records anymore. Then 1:21:52.400 --> 1:21:57.880 the next album, Tanks, I worked without a contract. He 1:21:59.560 --> 1:22:04.040 his wife came to me and she said, you know, 1:22:04.840 --> 1:22:07.639 we feel We spoke to Mark's lawyer and we feel 1:22:07.680 --> 1:22:11.800 that you don't need a contract anymore. You don't need 1:22:11.800 --> 1:22:14.280 a royalty anymore. We're going to make a deal with you. 1:22:14.720 --> 1:22:19.880 We'll pay you ten pounds per annum something like for 1:22:19.920 --> 1:22:21.640 the rest of your life. But maybe it wasn't. It 1:22:21.680 --> 1:22:23.800 was like for the next five years or something like that. 1:22:24.640 --> 1:22:27.559 So I did. I made the next album, zinc Alloy, 1:22:28.160 --> 1:22:31.719 under those conditions, the fourth album that was the big 1:22:31.840 --> 1:22:36.000 t Rex hit, and it did well. But then Mark 1:22:36.080 --> 1:22:39.519 started the cocaine and alcohol abuse started getting out of 1:22:39.520 --> 1:22:43.200 control and he was being really unkind to everyone. He 1:22:43.280 --> 1:22:46.120 was like he was a drunk, you know. He was 1:22:46.160 --> 1:22:51.600 like cursing everyone out, being a very, very unruly. So 1:22:52.160 --> 1:22:53.519 I had a little talk to them at the end. 1:22:53.520 --> 1:22:55.200 I said, we're going to part company. I don't like 1:22:55.240 --> 1:22:57.519 the way you're treating people. And that was it. We 1:22:57.560 --> 1:22:59.400 parted under those conditions. 1:23:00.000 --> 1:23:02.360 How long did you get the ten thousand dollars? 1:23:02.640 --> 1:23:05.679 I never got it. I think I got the ten 1:23:05.720 --> 1:23:10.080 thousand for that fourth album, the zinc Allo album, and 1:23:10.120 --> 1:23:13.680 that was it. And it was you know, it's a 1:23:13.680 --> 1:23:16.080 little foggy in my brain because I don't really want 1:23:16.120 --> 1:23:19.760 to think about it that much. How David was the 1:23:19.800 --> 1:23:22.680 complete opposite. He was a gentleman of his word. He 1:23:22.720 --> 1:23:26.240 would always honor his contracts, even if it was just 1:23:26.360 --> 1:23:29.000 a handshake. He would always honor what he said. Mark 1:23:29.120 --> 1:23:32.920 was the opposite. He would just hope you would conveniently 1:23:33.000 --> 1:23:34.240 forget about it, you know. 1:23:35.439 --> 1:23:37.639 Okay, so you're working with t Rex over a period 1:23:37.640 --> 1:23:40.280 of years. You're a record producer. You're not in the band, 1:23:40.360 --> 1:23:42.439 so you're working on other stuff. What are you working on? 1:23:43.360 --> 1:23:47.160 Well? I went through many period different periods. 1:23:46.920 --> 1:23:49.599 In the eighties, no no, no, no, no no. Back 1:23:49.640 --> 1:23:53.720 in the seventies, seventies, late sixties. When how do you 1:23:54.400 --> 1:23:56.799 ultimately get hooked up with David Bowie? 1:23:57.880 --> 1:24:04.400 That was really easy was Mark Bolan's publisher, and my 1:24:04.479 --> 1:24:07.439 offices were in the same house as the publishing house. 1:24:08.000 --> 1:24:12.479 So Gus Dudgeons. Gus Dudgeon produced Elton John. He was 1:24:12.840 --> 1:24:16.479 one house producer. I was another house producer, Denny Cordell 1:24:16.920 --> 1:24:19.880 and Don Paul. We were four house producers for that 1:24:20.000 --> 1:24:24.840 company who had a label called New Breed at first 1:24:24.920 --> 1:24:30.640 and then Good New Breed Productions. Oh, I forget what 1:24:30.680 --> 1:24:33.720 else it was called. But David Plattz, who was the 1:24:33.720 --> 1:24:39.120 publisher who owned all these companies, including our contracts, had 1:24:39.280 --> 1:24:42.479 all these writers. One of his main writers was Anthony Newley. 1:24:43.240 --> 1:24:46.080 And when he heard David Bowie sing, he saw a 1:24:46.080 --> 1:24:48.760 young Anthony Newley. He hired him on the spot. He 1:24:48.800 --> 1:24:51.920 signed him up for a publishing contract, and David had 1:24:51.960 --> 1:24:54.840 already made a record for d Ram Records, which is 1:24:55.000 --> 1:24:58.880 a Decca company, which tanked. It really didn't do very well, 1:25:00.439 --> 1:25:03.920 although it showed off his skills and it was all 1:25:03.960 --> 1:25:07.000 over the place. So one day David Plattz calls me 1:25:07.439 --> 1:25:10.800 into his office after I had all these Tyrannosaur these, yeah, 1:25:10.800 --> 1:25:13.160 the Tyrannosaurus rex hits, and you know, I'm making money 1:25:13.160 --> 1:25:16.439 for the label. He said, I've got an artist I 1:25:16.920 --> 1:25:20.080 think would be a good match for you. And I said, okay, 1:25:20.600 --> 1:25:22.840 I'm listening. He goes, so he put on the d 1:25:23.000 --> 1:25:26.479 Ram album when he's saying like when I Live My Dream, 1:25:26.560 --> 1:25:30.280 which sounded exactly like Anthony Nuley. Then he did another 1:25:30.400 --> 1:25:33.880 played Another song was the Laughing Postman, which was he 1:25:33.920 --> 1:25:36.439 did this chipmunk voice, you know, half speed voice where 1:25:36.439 --> 1:25:39.840 he started laughing like a postman but with a chipmunk. 1:25:40.320 --> 1:25:44.519 And then all the other songs bore no uh, there 1:25:44.520 --> 1:25:48.040 was no continuity in styles. So he said, what do 1:25:48.120 --> 1:25:51.080 you think. I said, he's great, He's got a great voice, 1:25:51.120 --> 1:25:53.599 he's a great writer, but he's all over the place. 1:25:54.479 --> 1:25:56.360 If I were to work with him, I would have 1:25:56.400 --> 1:25:58.880 to focus him he'd have to do one thing, and 1:25:59.360 --> 1:26:01.640 I think the op obviously obvious thing for him to 1:26:01.680 --> 1:26:04.400 do would be to be a rock singer. He's got 1:26:04.400 --> 1:26:06.080 the chops, he can do it. I'm sure he can 1:26:06.120 --> 1:26:09.760 do it. He goes, okay, I was thinking along those lines. 1:26:09.760 --> 1:26:11.920 He goes, would you like to meet him? I go yeah. 1:26:12.000 --> 1:26:16.160 He goes, step right this way, and he opened the door. 1:26:16.200 --> 1:26:18.880 It was a setup. He asked David to come in 1:26:18.880 --> 1:26:21.120 that day to meet me. He opens the door to 1:26:21.160 --> 1:26:24.519 his like inner sanctum there and David's waiting for the meeting, 1:26:25.280 --> 1:26:29.799 and I the first thing I noticed were his eyes. 1:26:30.560 --> 1:26:32.040 You know, I thought he's a good looking boy, But 1:26:32.080 --> 1:26:34.640 what's he got these two different colored eyes for? You know, 1:26:34.640 --> 1:26:37.720 what's all that about? So he shakes my hand and 1:26:37.760 --> 1:26:42.160 he's very, very like excited to meet me. And I 1:26:42.280 --> 1:26:45.519 found out that he was a like I don't know 1:26:45.560 --> 1:26:48.360 how you said, he equivalent an Anglo file, an American file. 1:26:48.439 --> 1:26:48.640 You know. 1:26:48.760 --> 1:26:51.200 He he loved American music. He grew up on R 1:26:51.240 --> 1:26:54.599 and B records, same as I did. We loved we 1:26:54.680 --> 1:26:58.479 loved the odd person out, like the legendary star dust cowboy. 1:26:58.920 --> 1:27:01.000 We both were in love with those kind of records 1:27:01.240 --> 1:27:05.679 Nervous Norvis who sang Transfusion, he had all those records 1:27:05.680 --> 1:27:08.040 that I had, and we found that out in that 1:27:08.200 --> 1:27:12.880 interview outside of David Plattz's office, and we got on 1:27:13.000 --> 1:27:16.799 like brothers, and by six, when six o'clock rolled around, 1:27:17.520 --> 1:27:20.280 we said, oh wet, they were locking up. They kicked 1:27:20.360 --> 1:27:23.880 us out, so we walked down Oxford Street, which is 1:27:24.200 --> 1:27:27.880 one part of town, and we walked and talked for 1:27:28.080 --> 1:27:31.080 another hour until we got to King's Road in London 1:27:31.800 --> 1:27:34.160 and we were looking at all the windows of clothes 1:27:34.240 --> 1:27:38.559 we couldn't afford yet, and we came to the art 1:27:38.640 --> 1:27:41.519 theater they had there. Forget the name of the street, 1:27:41.520 --> 1:27:44.479 but they had They only played scratchy black and white films, 1:27:44.479 --> 1:27:47.719 which we said, we like scratchy black and white films. 1:27:47.720 --> 1:27:50.160 Both of us liked those. And they had a Knife 1:27:50.200 --> 1:27:53.960 in the Water playing at one of these cinemas, and 1:27:54.600 --> 1:27:56.200 we said, shall we go in and watch it? So 1:27:56.360 --> 1:27:58.960 this is about eight eight in the evening, so we 1:27:59.000 --> 1:28:01.760 bought two tickets, sat down, we watched the Knife in 1:28:01.800 --> 1:28:04.719 the Water and we eventually said good night at about 1:28:04.720 --> 1:28:08.400 eleven thirty at night. From say three point thirty in 1:28:08.439 --> 1:28:11.840 the afternoon, that's We were such good friends by the 1:28:11.920 --> 1:28:14.639 end of the day. And then we started seeing each 1:28:14.680 --> 1:28:19.120 other socially for quite a while. And then he said, 1:28:19.120 --> 1:28:21.559 Deco wants me to make one more record, and I 1:28:21.640 --> 1:28:24.680 made this record with him. It's kind of a It's 1:28:24.720 --> 1:28:27.040 a record called London by Tata. It was as close 1:28:27.080 --> 1:28:28.880 as it was pop record. It wasn't a rock record, 1:28:28.920 --> 1:28:33.519 it was a pop record. And they had another male artist. 1:28:33.560 --> 1:28:35.679 It was either they wanted to drop one of them. 1:28:36.080 --> 1:28:39.040 It was going to be Bowie or Kat Stevens. So 1:28:39.200 --> 1:28:43.840 when I I produced this less than you know, this 1:28:43.920 --> 1:28:46.800 less than kind of production, they kept Cat Stevens and 1:28:46.880 --> 1:28:50.400 dropped David. But actually it freed him from that label. 1:28:50.439 --> 1:28:52.920 He would have they would never have seen him as 1:28:52.960 --> 1:28:55.800 a future rock star. I always did. I knew he 1:28:55.840 --> 1:28:59.439 was going to go places. So we kind of rambled 1:28:59.479 --> 1:29:01.599 around over the next couple of years. We never really 1:29:01.640 --> 1:29:05.360 did anything great until the Space Oddity album, which we 1:29:05.760 --> 1:29:08.200 worked on together, and then The Man Who Sold the World, 1:29:08.240 --> 1:29:10.519 which was the next one. Now he was a rock star. 1:29:11.080 --> 1:29:15.880 Okay, Space Oddity, that's Gus, right, Are you involved in 1:29:15.960 --> 1:29:17.120 Space Oddity? The track? 1:29:18.080 --> 1:29:22.240 No? So when David played it to me, I said 1:29:22.240 --> 1:29:26.760 to him, I know what you're doing. There's a guy 1:29:26.840 --> 1:29:29.160 up in space. Now, you know, the NASA just put 1:29:29.200 --> 1:29:31.680 a guy in space in his tin can. I know 1:29:31.720 --> 1:29:34.920 what you mean by the tin can. And I said, 1:29:34.920 --> 1:29:37.200 but it's a cheap shot, you know, if it's it's 1:29:37.240 --> 1:29:41.120 based on a special event, it's not based on like, 1:29:41.479 --> 1:29:43.080 what are you gonna do? Write an album full of 1:29:43.120 --> 1:29:47.680 science fiction songs? Which he eventually right. He goes, he 1:29:47.680 --> 1:29:50.639 says yeah, but he goes everyone's saying it's a hit record. 1:29:50.720 --> 1:29:53.240 I go, I think it is a hit record. But 1:29:53.400 --> 1:29:56.040 I said, in good conscience, I can't go this route 1:29:56.040 --> 1:29:58.400 with you. You know, go go it some Gus loves you, 1:29:58.479 --> 1:30:00.920 he adores you, and he he had already worked with 1:30:01.439 --> 1:30:04.479 When David used to be on Decka, the Deca label, 1:30:04.520 --> 1:30:07.760 Gus already had worked with him. So I went to 1:30:08.200 --> 1:30:10.240 Gus and I said, you like this? He goes, yeah, 1:30:10.320 --> 1:30:13.080 He goes, why don't you do it? He goes, you're crazy, Tony. 1:30:13.200 --> 1:30:15.840 I go, no, I don't like it. I can't rook. 1:30:15.960 --> 1:30:19.040 I can't produce something I don't like. And he said, 1:30:19.200 --> 1:30:21.160 you're sure you're okay with this? I go, you got 1:30:21.160 --> 1:30:24.840 my blessings. So he finds Paul Buckmaster, who was also 1:30:25.080 --> 1:30:27.960 published by David Platz. It was all kind of in house, 1:30:28.880 --> 1:30:33.280 and when I heard it, I changed my mind. I said, shit, 1:30:33.840 --> 1:30:36.920 I should have produced that record, but I don't think 1:30:36.960 --> 1:30:41.400 I could have done Gus's job. He he threw the 1:30:41.479 --> 1:30:44.040 kitchen sink in it, and I wasn't yet a kitchen 1:30:44.080 --> 1:30:45.880 sink producer. I would have it would have been a 1:30:45.880 --> 1:30:50.120 more subtle piece of work. But since then, with all 1:30:50.160 --> 1:30:53.519 these atmosts and all these surround sound mixing things, Gus 1:30:53.560 --> 1:30:56.280 Gus has passed away, had passed away years ago. I 1:30:56.320 --> 1:30:59.600 have been mixing Space Odyssey over and over again in 1:30:59.680 --> 1:31:02.479 new formats. So I'm quite familiar with the song. 1:31:03.400 --> 1:31:05.719 Okay, but you work on the album after you hear the. 1:31:05.640 --> 1:31:09.320 Song, definitely yet so that surprised me. This is where 1:31:09.320 --> 1:31:14.360 our friendship came in. So after the song was made, 1:31:14.439 --> 1:31:18.040 I met David back in the office and I go, well, 1:31:18.080 --> 1:31:19.800 I suppose you're going to be working with gust from 1:31:19.880 --> 1:31:22.760 now on. You guys did great together. He goes, oh no, no, 1:31:23.120 --> 1:31:24.720 I had to get out. I had to get that 1:31:24.800 --> 1:31:28.640 out of the way. Now let's make the album. So 1:31:28.720 --> 1:31:31.040 he invited me back to make the rest of the album, 1:31:31.439 --> 1:31:34.280 which was good. You know, it's not a bad album. 1:31:34.280 --> 1:31:37.320 It's got some really good tracks on great songs. And 1:31:37.360 --> 1:31:39.840 then Space Out Audity sticks out like a sore thumb. 1:31:39.920 --> 1:31:42.320 You know, it's clearly the best track on the album 1:31:43.479 --> 1:31:45.400 that you know, you live and you learn. 1:31:46.240 --> 1:31:49.120 Okay, then The Man Who Sold the World, which means 1:31:49.200 --> 1:31:52.120 nothing when it comes out, nor does Space Oddity in 1:31:52.160 --> 1:31:54.960 the US, but I know it had some impact in 1:31:55.000 --> 1:31:56.920 the UK. So tell me about that album. 1:31:58.520 --> 1:32:02.080 But okay. By this time David was coming around to 1:32:02.160 --> 1:32:05.360 my flat with Mark Bolin. Sometimes David would would miss 1:32:05.360 --> 1:32:07.880 his last train to Beckenham and he would sleep over. 1:32:08.640 --> 1:32:11.200 Sometimes he would bring girls back to my flat to 1:32:11.240 --> 1:32:13.800 have sex with them. But it was clear that he 1:32:13.880 --> 1:32:16.519 had to have a flat of a house of his own, 1:32:16.720 --> 1:32:21.479 you know, he was like living between friends apartments and 1:32:21.520 --> 1:32:24.080 his go back to his parents now and then to 1:32:24.120 --> 1:32:27.000 get the laundry done, things like that. So he found 1:32:27.040 --> 1:32:30.679 this big house in Beckenham, Kent, which is hat In Hall, 1:32:30.760 --> 1:32:33.559 which is you know everyone knows about had In Hall now. 1:32:33.760 --> 1:32:37.360 It's an old Victorian house. It was beautiful. It was 1:32:37.400 --> 1:32:39.800 like a film set from Hammer Films. It was just 1:32:39.920 --> 1:32:44.559 absolutely beautiful and eerie. It felt haunted, I believe it was. 1:32:45.680 --> 1:32:48.320 So he lives there, and he and Angie, his wife, 1:32:48.800 --> 1:32:50.560 felt that it was just too big just for the 1:32:50.600 --> 1:32:54.800 both of them, and they asked myself and my girlfriend Liz, 1:32:54.840 --> 1:32:57.439 would they like to come and share the place with them. 1:32:58.160 --> 1:33:00.920 And we took one look at it and the real 1:33:01.040 --> 1:33:04.360 estate was huge. You know, there's a lot of apartment there. 1:33:04.520 --> 1:33:07.200 There was a wine cellar where we could set up 1:33:07.520 --> 1:33:11.040 a band, a drum kit and rehearse. So Liz and 1:33:11.040 --> 1:33:15.519 I moved into Haddon Hall and it was like really 1:33:15.520 --> 1:33:18.479 great for a while until it became a kind of 1:33:18.560 --> 1:33:21.320 meeting place for all the young kids in the neighborhood. 1:33:22.000 --> 1:33:24.880 And there would be knights that'd come home from work exhausted. 1:33:25.160 --> 1:33:27.479 There'd be about twenty people in that apartment, you know, 1:33:27.640 --> 1:33:31.120 just hanging off the There was a beautiful balcony around 1:33:31.240 --> 1:33:34.960 around the apartment, you know, hanging out doors, smoking dope. 1:33:36.120 --> 1:33:40.000 People would disappear into a bedroom upstairs. It was just like, 1:33:40.640 --> 1:33:42.920 this is getting like too hedonistic for me, you know, 1:33:43.320 --> 1:33:45.120 for a guy who just wanted to come home from 1:33:45.160 --> 1:33:49.559 work and chill, you know, So we still kept we 1:33:49.600 --> 1:33:52.400 still made the Mansoul the world. Under those conditions, I 1:33:52.479 --> 1:33:57.280 moved to a nearby town called Penge and we went down. 1:33:57.320 --> 1:34:00.920 We finally got Woody in the band. We had Mick 1:34:01.000 --> 1:34:04.880 Ronson in the band. He was heaven sent and Mick 1:34:04.960 --> 1:34:09.200 slowly got rid of everyone in the band that he 1:34:09.400 --> 1:34:12.439 had friends up in Hull, that he wanted to bring 1:34:12.520 --> 1:34:14.599 them down. So the first thing was he replaced all 1:34:14.800 --> 1:34:19.639 London drummer with Woody Woodmansey, who was in his band 1:34:19.680 --> 1:34:23.160 called the Rats back up in Hull, and I was 1:34:23.160 --> 1:34:26.599 the bass player. So Mick, Woody and myself and David 1:34:26.640 --> 1:34:29.920 on twelve string guitar formed a group which we went 1:34:29.960 --> 1:34:32.400 through many names, but one of the names that stuck 1:34:32.400 --> 1:34:35.920 with us was called the Hype. We were called Joe 1:34:35.920 --> 1:34:41.040 the Butcher at one point, and so we went into 1:34:41.080 --> 1:34:47.320 the studio and we said let's we liked. Mick Ronson 1:34:47.360 --> 1:34:49.719 loved Cream and he said, if you're going to play 1:34:49.720 --> 1:34:51.760 bass with me, he goes, I want you to listen 1:34:51.800 --> 1:34:54.800 to Jack Bruce and Cream. He goes, I want you 1:34:54.840 --> 1:34:56.760 to just that's the kind of bass player I want 1:34:56.800 --> 1:34:58.880 to work with. Because I was, up until that point 1:34:58.880 --> 1:35:01.880 of meat and potatoes bass player. I played funky stuff, 1:35:02.520 --> 1:35:04.719 but then I listened to Jack Bruce and he's playing 1:35:04.800 --> 1:35:07.759 bass like a lead guitar. He's bending all the notes 1:35:07.760 --> 1:35:10.840 and he's playing fast scales and going all over the place. 1:35:10.880 --> 1:35:13.000 I said, I went back to make I said, oh, 1:35:13.120 --> 1:35:15.000 I get it. You want me to play lead bass, 1:35:15.520 --> 1:35:17.720 which wasn't a thing yet. I mean, Jack Bruce was 1:35:17.760 --> 1:35:20.960 the only one doing that. So I started showing off. 1:35:21.000 --> 1:35:23.280 And I was also a guitar player, so this was 1:35:23.400 --> 1:35:26.519 easy to do this for me, just to play all 1:35:26.520 --> 1:35:30.120 over the place and play complicated stuff, and some of 1:35:30.120 --> 1:35:34.080 those parts like are iconic, like you hear Neirvada playing 1:35:34.160 --> 1:35:36.360 the Manusola World and playing my bass part, you know, 1:35:37.360 --> 1:35:39.840 and other people who ventured to play the title track 1:35:39.920 --> 1:35:45.080 that is some complicated bass part. I'm in a tribute 1:35:45.080 --> 1:35:47.080 band now where we do it play some of those 1:35:47.120 --> 1:35:50.479 songs on stage, and it takes me about two or 1:35:50.520 --> 1:35:52.759 three months to get back into shape again and remember 1:35:52.800 --> 1:35:56.600 all those notes again. But the Manusolda World didn't do 1:35:56.680 --> 1:35:58.160 what we thought it would do. We thought we were 1:35:58.240 --> 1:36:02.479 going to be the next We thought we were gonna be, 1:36:02.680 --> 1:36:06.840 you know, a really big prog rock band, but they 1:36:06.880 --> 1:36:08.559 didn't like us. You know, we did a big gig 1:36:08.560 --> 1:36:13.719 at the Roundhouse, and we were booed off the stage. 1:36:14.479 --> 1:36:16.639 Not off the stage, but we were you know, some 1:36:16.720 --> 1:36:19.200 of the some of the songs went down great, but 1:36:19.360 --> 1:36:21.960 some people were just booing us through throughout the songs 1:36:21.960 --> 1:36:25.679 and they couldn't get that basis he already had Space 1:36:25.720 --> 1:36:28.240 Oddity as a hit. They just wanted to, like, hear 1:36:28.320 --> 1:36:31.559 more Space Oddity. But he never did write those songs, 1:36:32.080 --> 1:36:40.680 those more than Space Ardity songs until maybe Ziggy started us. 1:36:43.280 --> 1:36:47.479 Okay, you part ways. He makes a somewhat acoustic album 1:36:47.560 --> 1:36:52.280 Hunky Dory, which is phenomenal, but the real breakthrough comes 1:36:52.320 --> 1:36:55.840 in seventy two, the same time as the Slider with 1:36:56.000 --> 1:37:00.559 Ziggy Stardust. You were not involved in those records. Yet, 1:37:00.720 --> 1:37:02.880 you're not involved with a Laddin scene, which I thought 1:37:02.880 --> 1:37:04.679 was a little bit of a disappointment, but you come 1:37:04.760 --> 1:37:09.519 back with Diamond Dogs. So what's your relationship with David 1:37:09.640 --> 1:37:12.040 and what's your observation of him during that period? 1:37:13.160 --> 1:37:16.679 Well, during his Ziggy days he made contact with me again, 1:37:16.920 --> 1:37:19.840 there was a little we didn't speak to each other 1:37:19.880 --> 1:37:23.439 for about a year after I left the Hype you know, 1:37:23.640 --> 1:37:26.280 the mansoulta world because it wasn't a hit, there was 1:37:26.360 --> 1:37:29.400 no point in staying together. He had to rethink his plan. 1:37:29.880 --> 1:37:31.840 I had to go back to Mark Bowling and make 1:37:31.880 --> 1:37:35.599 records like the Slider and get gainfully employed again. It 1:37:35.680 --> 1:37:38.720 wasn't making a lot of money and becking him. And 1:37:39.840 --> 1:37:43.920 suddenly then he said to me once like we should 1:37:43.960 --> 1:37:47.200 have dinner together, and I said, well, have dinner at 1:37:47.240 --> 1:37:51.080 my house. My mother's here and she's made, like these girls, 1:37:52.200 --> 1:37:55.680 great Italian food. So he comes in in all his 1:37:56.080 --> 1:38:02.000 ziggy regalia. He was ziggy off stage and when I 1:38:02.040 --> 1:38:04.720 say that, he had the like six inch heels, the 1:38:05.240 --> 1:38:08.559 spiked orange red hair and all that, and he's wearing 1:38:08.600 --> 1:38:12.479 you know, epaulets on his shoulders and he's iggy starred us. 1:38:12.920 --> 1:38:16.599 And we have this babysitter who was a Bowie fan, 1:38:16.760 --> 1:38:20.040 he later found out, and she's in the kitchen with 1:38:20.200 --> 1:38:23.880 holding a saucepan that had boiling water in it with 1:38:23.960 --> 1:38:26.439 the baby's bottle in it. We had an infant son 1:38:26.479 --> 1:38:30.120 at this time, and David walks into the kitchen and 1:38:29.560 --> 1:38:33.880 she sees it's David Bowie and she screams and drops 1:38:33.880 --> 1:38:37.519 the boiling water on the floor. And he had that 1:38:37.680 --> 1:38:42.320 impact on people. But anyway, she managed to recover and 1:38:42.520 --> 1:38:44.800 we had a lovely get together and then from then 1:38:44.840 --> 1:38:47.439 on we saw each other socially a lot and had 1:38:47.760 --> 1:38:51.479 dinners and restaurants. So by the time Diamond Dogs came around, 1:38:52.160 --> 1:38:55.040 he was, you know, working with other people, but he 1:38:55.120 --> 1:38:58.160 said he was making an album. He had been all 1:38:58.160 --> 1:39:02.360 over town with every engineer, every recording studio, and he 1:39:02.560 --> 1:39:05.640 just can't get a good mix out of the record. 1:39:06.040 --> 1:39:09.000 It was made under kind of horrible conditions. I won't 1:39:09.040 --> 1:39:11.160 go into the engineer who made the album, but it 1:39:11.280 --> 1:39:13.720 wasn't a well recorded album. You needed to do some 1:39:14.320 --> 1:39:18.160 serious repair jobs on the album. So I said, okay, 1:39:18.200 --> 1:39:20.600 And I had just built my first home studio. I 1:39:20.600 --> 1:39:24.320 had a sixteen track studio in an area called Shepherd's Bush, 1:39:24.600 --> 1:39:27.120 and I said, try out my studio. You haven't tried 1:39:27.120 --> 1:39:29.760 every studio in town because you haven't tried this one. 1:39:30.439 --> 1:39:33.400 So I do the first mix of Diamond Dogs with him, 1:39:34.080 --> 1:39:37.080 and he takes it home and phones me up at 1:39:37.080 --> 1:39:39.840 like five in the morning and says he thought I 1:39:39.880 --> 1:39:42.559 stayed up all night like he did, and he said, 1:39:42.680 --> 1:39:45.679 it sounds fantastic. Let's finish the album in your studio. 1:39:46.040 --> 1:39:48.479 So that's how he got back together again after all 1:39:48.520 --> 1:39:49.040 those years. 1:39:50.680 --> 1:39:54.960 Okay, Diamond Dogs, he's finally playing arenas in America. Rebel 1:39:55.040 --> 1:40:01.080 Rebel is a huge hit. But the critics start to him. 1:40:01.960 --> 1:40:05.000 They say, this is a little obvious. He's giving the 1:40:05.040 --> 1:40:10.280 people what they want. This comes a complete left turn 1:40:10.400 --> 1:40:13.960 with young Americans. Tell us how that happens. 1:40:16.400 --> 1:40:22.680 Oh, okay, He's always start with a phone call from him, 1:40:23.040 --> 1:40:26.559 and after not hearing from him for ages, and he 1:40:26.680 --> 1:40:34.559 said that he's down in Philadelphia at Sigma Studios and 1:40:34.640 --> 1:40:37.400 they just started working on a new album. He goes, 1:40:37.439 --> 1:40:39.960 I want to make a soul album. He goes, but not, 1:40:40.080 --> 1:40:41.840 you know, it's not going to be like a sol album. 1:40:41.880 --> 1:40:44.000 It's going to be David Bowie singing soul. You know. 1:40:44.240 --> 1:40:47.360 I said, Okay, I'm game. You know, we knew, we 1:40:47.560 --> 1:40:50.479 knew our backgrounds. We knew I would fit in, and 1:40:51.160 --> 1:40:53.920 he knew I would fit in. And about two days later, 1:40:53.960 --> 1:40:57.559 I'm flying to Philadelphia from London and I had to 1:40:57.600 --> 1:40:59.719 show up for work. I just couldn't go to the hotel, 1:41:00.200 --> 1:41:03.120 not go straight to the hotel. The limo driver said, 1:41:03.160 --> 1:41:06.360 I have instructions to take you directly to the studio 1:41:06.760 --> 1:41:11.120 Sigma Studios in Philly. So I walk in there and 1:41:11.160 --> 1:41:15.479 it's about eleven at night, midnight something like that, and 1:41:15.600 --> 1:41:19.759 he's flying high, you know, little Peruvian marching powder was involved. 1:41:20.280 --> 1:41:25.040 And then the band is Carlos Alomar uh Andy Duncan, 1:41:25.439 --> 1:41:28.479 Andy Newmark on drums from Sly and the Family Stone, 1:41:28.720 --> 1:41:30.720 who I was supposed. I was surprised to find out 1:41:30.720 --> 1:41:33.040 he was a white guy because he's in the funkiest 1:41:33.080 --> 1:41:36.599 band on earth at that time. And the bass player 1:41:36.800 --> 1:41:40.960 was a bass player from Heaven, Willie Weeks, who played 1:41:41.000 --> 1:41:46.320 with Donny Hathaway and I had a band of Willie Weeks. 1:41:46.760 --> 1:41:49.360 He played on a song called Everything Is Everything where 1:41:49.400 --> 1:41:52.439 Willy Willy Willie Weeks takes about a five minute bass 1:41:52.439 --> 1:41:56.920 solo on that. So I said, Willy, I love you man, 1:41:57.120 --> 1:42:00.400 and he was like really playing it Dan. He wasn't smarting, 1:42:00.479 --> 1:42:03.240 he wasn't going out. He had this like kind of 1:42:03.280 --> 1:42:08.160 repressive personality at the time. So we started working immediately 1:42:08.200 --> 1:42:12.240 on the title track Young Americans. We start working on 1:42:12.320 --> 1:42:16.040 that and Willie's playing really simple. He's playing like one 1:42:16.240 --> 1:42:20.799 in five boom boo boom boo, boom boo, boom boo boom, 1:42:20.800 --> 1:42:23.280 like that, and I'm here, I know he can shred, 1:42:23.960 --> 1:42:27.800 so we let that go. It was too late, I think. 1:42:28.120 --> 1:42:30.080 The next day we wanted to move on to another 1:42:30.160 --> 1:42:34.479 song and he continues to to play this pedestrian these 1:42:34.520 --> 1:42:38.400 pedestrian bass parts, and he said, I said, Willie, I 1:42:38.479 --> 1:42:41.479 heard you play everything is everything on the Donnie Hathaway album. 1:42:41.720 --> 1:42:43.599 He said, why aren't you playing that way for us? 1:42:44.120 --> 1:42:46.200 And he just crossed his arms and he said, because 1:42:46.240 --> 1:42:51.559 you didn't ask me to. I said, well, I'm asking 1:42:51.600 --> 1:42:55.479 you you. I'm asking you now. I said, you can shred, man, 1:42:55.520 --> 1:42:57.519 you can. So you could hear the difference on the 1:42:57.720 --> 1:43:00.120 rest of the tracks on the album. He starts bouncing 1:43:00.160 --> 1:43:03.320 around and he's taken all kinds of you know, playing 1:43:03.360 --> 1:43:06.400 all kinds of tricky stuff. Oh, he's a genius and 1:43:06.439 --> 1:43:10.320 genius bass player. I so much enjoyed working with him. 1:43:10.640 --> 1:43:13.160 And we were a mixed, racially mixed band too, which 1:43:13.200 --> 1:43:16.519 worked perfectly. You know, at first we were going to 1:43:16.600 --> 1:43:19.920 get those guys if they get gambling huff maybe who 1:43:20.080 --> 1:43:23.280 well they owned that. They that was their studio which 1:43:23.479 --> 1:43:25.240 they did a lot of R and B stuff in there, 1:43:25.560 --> 1:43:30.559 and David approached them first, I think, and they said, 1:43:30.560 --> 1:43:33.719 we don't want no blue eyed white boy stealing our music. 1:43:34.080 --> 1:43:36.519 They told him that it was an insult, you know. 1:43:37.320 --> 1:43:39.960 So when he hired the studio anyway, he brought in 1:43:40.000 --> 1:43:42.639 his own band, and it was we were a mixed band. 1:43:42.680 --> 1:43:45.040 That's the way you know, music should be played. You know, 1:43:45.840 --> 1:43:48.320 you don't have to be a certain race to place 1:43:48.400 --> 1:43:51.240 any kind of music. It's it's a different world now, 1:43:51.240 --> 1:43:53.799 and it was then too well, it was just turning. 1:43:53.800 --> 1:43:56.280 It was changing. Times were changing then. 1:43:56.880 --> 1:43:59.200 So how does John Lennon get involved? 1:44:00.120 --> 1:44:04.160 That was freaking, That was really freaking. This is a 1:44:04.240 --> 1:44:06.679 kind of not I could I could make a short 1:44:06.680 --> 1:44:10.360 story out of it. So we move operations. We do 1:44:10.439 --> 1:44:14.040 young Americans, We do as mess as we can in Philadelphia, 1:44:14.439 --> 1:44:17.679 and then we move operations to New York. He puts 1:44:17.720 --> 1:44:21.880 me up into like Sheraton Hotel Pierre or something like that, 1:44:21.960 --> 1:44:24.640 really expensive hotel and all that he had. He was 1:44:24.680 --> 1:44:28.400 just throwing money away in those days. And he hires 1:44:28.439 --> 1:44:32.680 a studio there and to do some further work in 1:44:32.760 --> 1:44:36.680 that studio. So we cut a couple of tracks there. 1:44:36.680 --> 1:44:39.840 We didn't cut fame, but one night he left the 1:44:39.880 --> 1:44:42.120 studio early. He says I'm going to go back to 1:44:42.160 --> 1:44:45.240 my suite. He was in a Hotel Pierre, and he said, 1:44:45.360 --> 1:44:48.479 Lenin is coming by tonight. He goes, I'm a bit 1:44:48.600 --> 1:44:50.960 I'm a bit frightened of him, a bit scared of him. 1:44:51.000 --> 1:44:54.040 He goes, would you mind coming after work, after you 1:44:54.040 --> 1:44:56.840 finish all your tidying ups and all that, would you 1:44:56.880 --> 1:45:00.479 mind coming over and kind of buffer the meeting? Exactly 1:45:00.520 --> 1:45:02.360 the word he used to buffer the meeting. I said, 1:45:03.360 --> 1:45:04.960 I would love to meet John Lennon. 1:45:06.320 --> 1:45:07.280 I will be there. 1:45:09.200 --> 1:45:12.639 So I finished. At about midnight, Limo takes me over 1:45:12.680 --> 1:45:15.799 to the Hotel Pierre. I go up to David's sweet 1:45:16.479 --> 1:45:19.240 and I knock on the door a lot and nobody answers. 1:45:19.280 --> 1:45:21.280 But I hear a lot of scuffling behind the door, 1:45:21.880 --> 1:45:26.240 and finally I don't know who answered, but I think 1:45:26.280 --> 1:45:29.439 it was Neil Aspinall, one of the minders of the Beatles. 1:45:29.479 --> 1:45:33.400 It was Neil Aspinall, and I said, it's Tony, Tony WISCONTI. 1:45:33.680 --> 1:45:36.360 David asked me to come by tonight. He goes, yeah, okay, 1:45:36.400 --> 1:45:38.240 we were just a bit worried you might be the police. 1:45:38.960 --> 1:45:41.360 And I go, oh, well, no, it's me. So he 1:45:41.439 --> 1:45:44.519 invited me in and I walk into the main room 1:45:44.640 --> 1:45:48.040 and I saw a sight I'll never forget. On the 1:45:48.080 --> 1:45:53.760 floor was David and a beautiful Hispanic woman, really really beautiful, 1:45:54.200 --> 1:45:57.480 and between them there was like a mountain of cocaine. 1:45:58.040 --> 1:46:02.280 It was mount everst but about six inches high, you know, 1:46:03.280 --> 1:46:07.000 and with ski slopes, it was like the real deal. 1:46:07.560 --> 1:46:11.479 And on the couch is my idol, John Lennon. You know, 1:46:12.000 --> 1:46:14.920 I couldn't believe it. And I go hello, John, and 1:46:14.960 --> 1:46:17.240 he goes hello. And next to him was this Asian 1:46:17.320 --> 1:46:22.040 girl who I found out was Maypang and she's with 1:46:22.160 --> 1:46:25.599 sitting with him. And then there's Neil aspinall sitting next 1:46:25.600 --> 1:46:29.480 to John. And I snuggle into between Neil and John 1:46:29.680 --> 1:46:33.320 and I'm watching David and the girl chopping out lines 1:46:33.720 --> 1:46:36.760 and John and I said to John, I said, do 1:46:36.760 --> 1:46:39.600 you mind if I ask you some Beatles questions? You 1:46:39.640 --> 1:46:42.400 know like? He goes, no, go right ahead, you know, 1:46:42.680 --> 1:46:46.080 ask me anything you like. And I go, okay, that 1:46:46.320 --> 1:46:50.000 first chord on a hard day's night, What what how 1:46:50.040 --> 1:46:53.120 do you play that chord? He goes, well, I know 1:46:53.200 --> 1:46:56.200 what I played. You know, George played the other guitar. 1:46:56.320 --> 1:46:58.240 I played this chord and he picks up a guitar 1:46:58.560 --> 1:47:01.280 and he goes and I think George played this chord, 1:47:01.360 --> 1:47:04.160 and what you hear is these two chords together. He says, 1:47:04.160 --> 1:47:07.120 it's a good clash. It works, It really works. They go, oh, yeah, 1:47:07.160 --> 1:47:10.519 it works very much. And then I got into like 1:47:10.720 --> 1:47:14.360 lyrics and I had him for a good hour. And 1:47:14.400 --> 1:47:16.920 then he's like looking over at David. You know, now 1:47:17.040 --> 1:47:20.400 David's being absolutely rude. He's not even he's so frightened 1:47:20.400 --> 1:47:23.040 of John. He's not even looking up at John. He's 1:47:23.080 --> 1:47:26.120 just in with this girl. They're chopping lines away. John 1:47:26.160 --> 1:47:30.880 had a few. And then David picks up a pad, 1:47:30.960 --> 1:47:34.280 a sketch pad, and he's got some charcoal pencils or 1:47:34.320 --> 1:47:36.360 something like that, and he starts, you know, he's a 1:47:36.360 --> 1:47:38.760 great David was a great artist, and so is John. 1:47:39.240 --> 1:47:42.719 So David starts sketching a lenin of a portrait of John, 1:47:42.840 --> 1:47:46.600 like a caricature, and John says, hey, give us a 1:47:46.600 --> 1:47:49.200 piece of paper and give me a pencil, and John 1:47:50.000 --> 1:47:51.960 puts it on like a tea tray or something like that, 1:47:52.040 --> 1:47:55.040 and he starts doing David. And from this point onwards, 1:47:55.080 --> 1:47:58.960 it broke the ice that I couldn't buffer anything. The 1:47:59.360 --> 1:48:01.880 drawing of each was very funny, and they picked it 1:48:01.960 --> 1:48:04.200 up and they showed each other the drawings and have 1:48:04.240 --> 1:48:06.479 a good laugh, and they'd start a few and then 1:48:06.560 --> 1:48:10.680 eventually David and John started talking to each other. And 1:48:10.720 --> 1:48:13.599 then like I realized that the hour was getting really 1:48:13.640 --> 1:48:18.080 really late. It was getting to about six pm, seven pm, 1:48:18.520 --> 1:48:22.280 and I said, you know, I got to go. It's 1:48:22.360 --> 1:48:24.280 like really late. I had a hard, long day. And 1:48:24.640 --> 1:48:27.640 John said yeah. He says, we can't go until the 1:48:27.680 --> 1:48:31.519 sun rises, and I go, why is that? He goes, well, 1:48:31.560 --> 1:48:34.559 he says, you know, I was busted, and I don't 1:48:34.600 --> 1:48:36.720 want to I want to stay here. I feel safe here, 1:48:37.120 --> 1:48:39.120 and I feel it'd be easier if I leave in 1:48:39.160 --> 1:48:41.479 the daylight. They'll think I'm just coming out of a 1:48:41.479 --> 1:48:44.559 hotel instead of staying up all night. If I leave now, 1:48:44.880 --> 1:48:47.320 I'll look suspicious and all that. So it was horrible 1:48:47.360 --> 1:48:50.080 to hear him say that. You know, from you know, 1:48:50.160 --> 1:48:53.640 his prior bust. He was a victim. He could have 1:48:53.680 --> 1:48:57.320 been victimized. So that was really sad that he had 1:48:57.320 --> 1:48:59.920 to leave under those situations. But at least I had him, 1:49:00.360 --> 1:49:03.720 I don't know, six seven hours. He was all mine. 1:49:04.160 --> 1:49:06.639 So how did he end up co writing Fame? 1:49:07.280 --> 1:49:09.439 Well, that's it. I went back. The idea was I 1:49:09.439 --> 1:49:12.479 would go back with the master tapes to London to 1:49:12.560 --> 1:49:14.840 start mixing it. That's where my home base was then, 1:49:15.400 --> 1:49:18.759 and David would later join me there. So he phones 1:49:18.800 --> 1:49:26.240 me up about he doesn't phone me, No, he did. 1:49:26.439 --> 1:49:28.880 He did because there was another incident like this where 1:49:28.920 --> 1:49:31.400 his assistant phoned me. He phones me up there after 1:49:31.520 --> 1:49:35.720 three days and he said, Tony, I did something like amazing, 1:49:35.800 --> 1:49:39.080 but I'm afraid it excluded you. He goes, John and 1:49:39.120 --> 1:49:41.080 I would just you know. He came back the next 1:49:41.200 --> 1:49:43.640 night and we started jamming. We had the guitars and 1:49:43.680 --> 1:49:45.840 all that, and then the next night he goes, we 1:49:45.960 --> 1:49:48.599 hired a studio and we wrote this song called Fame, 1:49:49.640 --> 1:49:51.960 and he says, I put it down. It didn't you know. 1:49:52.000 --> 1:49:54.080 We hired a drummer in New York. It wasn't even 1:49:54.080 --> 1:49:58.000 the Philly group of musicians anymore. I think they got 1:49:58.000 --> 1:50:00.720 Carlos because Carlos lived in Manhattan, or he lived in 1:50:00.760 --> 1:50:04.439 the Bronx, so they got Carlos in there and he said, 1:50:04.479 --> 1:50:06.800 it sounds really good, but but I wrote it with 1:50:06.920 --> 1:50:09.160 John and I have to put it on the album. 1:50:09.160 --> 1:50:11.640 I have to take something off young Americans put it 1:50:11.680 --> 1:50:15.519 on the album, I said, I said, David, I would 1:50:15.560 --> 1:50:19.800 have bought my own ticket on the concord if you 1:50:19.840 --> 1:50:21.679 had told I would have been there in five hours, 1:50:21.840 --> 1:50:25.960 you know. He says, well, it's done, and we did it. 1:50:26.000 --> 1:50:28.360 And he said, then while we were there, I felt 1:50:28.360 --> 1:50:31.559 we had to record another. We had to record one 1:50:31.560 --> 1:50:34.240 of John's songs. So we did Across the Universe. And 1:50:34.320 --> 1:50:36.679 I later met up with John Lennon at some event 1:50:36.760 --> 1:50:40.240 or something and and we were talking about then he goes, because, yeah, 1:50:40.280 --> 1:50:42.679 because it was good. It was fun recording fame. He goes, 1:50:42.840 --> 1:50:46.519 but Across the Universe was never one of my favorite songs. 1:50:47.680 --> 1:50:49.639 He says. It was a drag doing that one. You're 1:50:49.640 --> 1:50:51.479 singing that one, he goes, But it turned out okay, 1:50:51.560 --> 1:50:53.800 you know, very gregarious, very nice. 1:50:54.040 --> 1:50:55.559 Okay, those two are on the album. Did you have 1:50:55.640 --> 1:50:57.000 to take stuff off the album? 1:50:57.720 --> 1:51:00.639 Sure? Oh my god, it took They took off two songs. 1:51:00.640 --> 1:51:03.599 Somebody up there Likes Me was taken off the album, 1:51:04.080 --> 1:51:08.280 and let It Be Me, which was a funky seven 1:51:08.320 --> 1:51:12.240 minute ballad which later when they reissued box sets, you 1:51:12.360 --> 1:51:14.720 now can hear those songs like let It Be Me 1:51:15.040 --> 1:51:17.800 is like a classic, like sounds like a Ray chall song. 1:51:18.360 --> 1:51:21.920 It's very slow and dirgy, and I wrote my best 1:51:22.040 --> 1:51:26.200 Quincy Jones arrangement for it as well. But you can 1:51:26.240 --> 1:51:27.639 now hear all those tracks. 1:51:27.640 --> 1:51:29.680 But oh, okay, but I have to I hate to 1:51:29.720 --> 1:51:32.200 correct you. You were there. But Somebody Up There Likes 1:51:32.240 --> 1:51:34.760 Me is the opening track on the album on the 1:51:34.840 --> 1:51:35.519 second side. 1:51:36.000 --> 1:51:38.360 Okay, you're absolutely right, so it's another track. 1:51:38.479 --> 1:51:41.760 The only reason I mentioned that is that's my favorite 1:51:41.760 --> 1:51:46.080 song on the album. Staying on the album, you ultimately 1:51:46.160 --> 1:51:49.840 hear and mix Fame, it becomes a gigantic kit. Did 1:51:49.880 --> 1:51:51.280 you expect that to be a hit? 1:51:52.320 --> 1:51:55.240 I I it likes Space Oddity. I knew it was 1:51:55.280 --> 1:51:57.800 a hit and I on the but you know, I 1:51:57.840 --> 1:52:00.320 could have done Space Oddity, like I said, you know, 1:52:00.439 --> 1:52:02.519 but I think Gus did a great job. I could 1:52:02.560 --> 1:52:07.720 have recorded Fame. It's like really simple and I don't know. 1:52:07.760 --> 1:52:11.360 Well, the only thing about that album is Fame is 1:52:11.400 --> 1:52:15.360 not one of my favorites young Americans. Okay, but my 1:52:15.439 --> 1:52:18.440 two favorites are Somebody up There Likes Me in Fascination. 1:52:19.080 --> 1:52:20.080 Those two they're great. 1:52:20.360 --> 1:52:24.200 Never burnout on. Yeah, so and how did this is 1:52:24.240 --> 1:52:29.040 before Luther Vandrose is Luther Van Rose? I know, how 1:52:29.080 --> 1:52:31.360 does he end up? He's just in Philadelphia and he 1:52:31.439 --> 1:52:33.040 shows up. How does he get involved? 1:52:34.120 --> 1:52:37.400 Uh? Carlos and Robin went to high school with Luther. 1:52:38.439 --> 1:52:41.479 That's how he showed up. And they said, they said, 1:52:41.520 --> 1:52:44.559 you're gonna like Luther because they were looking for backup vocalists. 1:52:44.840 --> 1:52:48.960 Robin was already in. She was going to sing backing vocals. 1:52:49.280 --> 1:52:52.880 Ava Cherry, who was David's mistress at the time, was 1:52:52.920 --> 1:52:55.519 going to sing backing vocals. But we needed we needed 1:52:55.600 --> 1:52:59.519 more people. And so Luther comes in one day like 1:52:59.520 --> 1:53:03.920 like wide eyed, really innocent. You know, this tall, lovely 1:53:04.000 --> 1:53:06.800 man walks in like looking around. I know he had 1:53:06.840 --> 1:53:09.360 some experience in the studio, but this is big time, 1:53:09.439 --> 1:53:13.720 big star and all that. And he takes over as 1:53:13.840 --> 1:53:17.280 choir master almost immediately. When he hears how sluggish we 1:53:17.280 --> 1:53:20.720 were writing backing vocals, he goes, how about trying to this? 1:53:21.120 --> 1:53:24.040 How about trying this? Because young Americans didn't have the hook, 1:53:24.400 --> 1:53:27.479 He wrote the hook. So David wrote that whole song, 1:53:27.520 --> 1:53:30.240 but there was no chorus. There was just a musical interlude, 1:53:30.640 --> 1:53:34.280 and Luther could sing he's singing over he goes young Americans, 1:53:34.360 --> 1:53:38.160 young Americans, She got the young American. That was Luther's input, 1:53:38.520 --> 1:53:43.720 and David was gobsmacked. That would not have been a 1:53:43.760 --> 1:53:46.680 single if Luther did not come up with that. So 1:53:46.880 --> 1:53:51.639 Fascination was Luther's song called funky Music. So Luther said, 1:53:51.680 --> 1:53:53.600 I've got David said, let me hear your music. So 1:53:53.720 --> 1:53:56.759 Luther played him funky Music and he goes, how about? 1:53:57.000 --> 1:53:58.720 He said, I love the whole song, and I love 1:53:58.800 --> 1:54:00.800 most of the lyrics, but would you allow me to 1:54:00.800 --> 1:54:04.080 rewrite a few things about it. Luther couldn't believe his love, 1:54:04.880 --> 1:54:06.680 and he said, of course, you ken, David. So he 1:54:06.800 --> 1:54:13.240 changed Funky Music to Fascination, same melody. And it's so 1:54:13.400 --> 1:54:17.320 great to see all these young people for first time experiences, 1:54:17.400 --> 1:54:20.960 and you know, we're all kind of young ourselves, you know. 1:54:21.000 --> 1:54:23.320 And David making a solo album took a lot of balls, 1:54:23.360 --> 1:54:25.960 really it did, and especially in Philadelphia, he was on 1:54:26.000 --> 1:54:26.479 their turf. 1:54:27.479 --> 1:54:31.200 But then he's the so called thin white duke. And 1:54:31.280 --> 1:54:35.320 you DeCamp to Berlin. You're really the first act that 1:54:35.480 --> 1:54:42.839 does that. And you make Low, which is with Eno 1:54:43.200 --> 1:54:45.640 is considered to be an electronic album. How does that 1:54:45.760 --> 1:54:47.880 left turn happen and how does it end up? In Berlin? 1:54:48.880 --> 1:54:53.520 So David went to the Honky Chateau to do an 1:54:53.560 --> 1:54:56.640 album and he said, I've been Brian and I have 1:54:56.720 --> 1:54:59.840 been working for a couple of weeks writing some music 1:55:00.120 --> 1:55:02.680 this album, and he told me the concept. He said, 1:55:02.840 --> 1:55:05.680 the A side is going to be short songs, kind 1:55:05.680 --> 1:55:08.080 of brief songs, you know, like it's not going to 1:55:08.120 --> 1:55:10.400 be my usual set of lyrics. He goes, and the 1:55:10.480 --> 1:55:12.840 B side is going to be what Brian does best, 1:55:12.880 --> 1:55:16.880 his ambient music, And he said, would you He says, 1:55:16.920 --> 1:55:19.360 it's going to be very experimental and we might never 1:55:19.800 --> 1:55:24.080 release this album. He goes, but he says, so, I 1:55:24.080 --> 1:55:26.040 can't promise you that it's even going to be released, 1:55:26.040 --> 1:55:29.480 But are you willing to spend four weeks in France 1:55:29.960 --> 1:55:33.520 in the Chateau d'arraville with Brian and myself? He goes. 1:55:33.680 --> 1:55:36.560 I said, are you kidding? Four weeks with you and Brian? 1:55:36.600 --> 1:55:40.200 That's a holiday, that's a vacation. I said, I'll happily 1:55:40.240 --> 1:55:44.840 do that. So we sequested ourselves. It was very far 1:55:44.880 --> 1:55:47.080 from Paris. We really couldn't go out at night and 1:55:47.120 --> 1:55:49.040 get into trouble you know, we couldn't go to bars 1:55:49.040 --> 1:55:53.280 and clubs, and we just had you know, food brought in. 1:55:53.360 --> 1:55:55.880 It was at first the food was very bad. We 1:55:55.880 --> 1:55:58.760 were getting sick, sick of you know. We Cheese would 1:55:58.760 --> 1:56:01.520 be left out out and I would eat it and 1:56:01.560 --> 1:56:04.800 I'd get food poisoning for three days. Things like that 1:56:04.840 --> 1:56:09.240 were happening the past. Sometimes the power would go off 1:56:09.240 --> 1:56:13.400 at unexpected times, and the studio wasn't really it didn't 1:56:13.440 --> 1:56:15.880 have a lot of microphones in outboard gear. It hardly 1:56:15.880 --> 1:56:18.680 had any outboard gear. But it was perfect for us. 1:56:18.680 --> 1:56:22.840 It was like making music in a monastery. And it 1:56:22.960 --> 1:56:26.040 was a great experience to wake up every day, have 1:56:26.120 --> 1:56:28.480 a bit of breakfast, and go and work all day 1:56:28.520 --> 1:56:32.480 long on getting the most far out songs sounds we 1:56:32.480 --> 1:56:35.960 could think of. And Brian was really like working that 1:56:36.040 --> 1:56:41.840 little beast. That that synthesizer in a briefcase. It's called 1:56:41.880 --> 1:56:46.160 the EMS SYNTHI and I David bought one. I got one. 1:56:46.200 --> 1:56:48.360 In the end. It was very complicated to work because 1:56:48.400 --> 1:56:51.960 it had no keyboard. You really just you really just 1:56:51.960 --> 1:56:54.480 sat there and twiddl knobs and made it go wowow 1:56:54.640 --> 1:56:57.280 wow wow. Like things like that and buzz and all that. 1:56:58.440 --> 1:57:02.040 So with that we went to We did this experimental album. 1:57:02.080 --> 1:57:05.800 It was completely panned by the critics at first, but 1:57:05.960 --> 1:57:08.840 fans went even fans were worried about what's this B 1:57:09.080 --> 1:57:12.320 side business, But in the end it took. It was 1:57:12.320 --> 1:57:15.560 a long cell, a long hard sell. Ossier rejected it 1:57:15.600 --> 1:57:18.320 at first, they said, this is not a David Bowie album. 1:57:18.320 --> 1:57:21.280 There are not enough David Bowie songs on it. And 1:57:21.960 --> 1:57:24.360 you know they wanted they were always He says, yeah, 1:57:24.400 --> 1:57:26.440 they want another Ziggy Star us. They've been wanting me 1:57:26.480 --> 1:57:30.040 to make a Ziggy Star this album for years. So 1:57:30.760 --> 1:57:32.840 that's how we got stuck into this thing. But then, 1:57:33.520 --> 1:57:36.520 you know, just to prove everyone that he was doing 1:57:36.520 --> 1:57:38.960 what he wanted, then it was a clever thing. We 1:57:39.000 --> 1:57:41.960 moved to Berlin next and do a similar kind of album, 1:57:42.400 --> 1:57:45.680 except we had a good leadoff song on that album 1:57:45.720 --> 1:57:48.760 we had didn't have really We had sound and Vision 1:57:48.920 --> 1:57:51.400 on Low that was kind of a hit, but it 1:57:51.440 --> 1:57:54.800 wasn't a world wide hit. But Heroes, My God, we 1:57:55.200 --> 1:57:56.600 hit all the good points on that. 1:57:56.760 --> 1:58:01.400 Okay, before we get the heroes Breaking Glass. I always 1:58:01.400 --> 1:58:04.680 thought that was a commentary on Nick Lowe's I Love 1:58:04.760 --> 1:58:08.080 the Sound of Breaking Glass any insight there. 1:58:14.120 --> 1:58:17.400 I think it was a reaction to that song. I 1:58:17.440 --> 1:58:19.680 think David was going to having some fun with that 1:58:19.720 --> 1:58:23.200 song by calling that be calling, by writing a song 1:58:23.240 --> 1:58:24.120 called Breaking Glass. 1:58:25.560 --> 1:58:28.600 And then my favorite song on the album is always 1:58:28.600 --> 1:58:31.120 Crashing in the Same Car. Any story there? 1:58:31.800 --> 1:58:33.840 Oh, I love that. I love that song and it 1:58:33.880 --> 1:58:37.120 really did happen. He was in a hotel. He lived 1:58:37.120 --> 1:58:39.640 in a hotel in Berlin for a while, I think 1:58:39.640 --> 1:58:42.120 it was Berlin, and they was in the He kept 1:58:42.160 --> 1:58:44.280 his car in a sub basement, you know, in a 1:58:44.280 --> 1:58:49.240 car park, and he he couldn't see very well in 1:58:49.320 --> 1:58:52.360 dim light, and every time he decided to take the 1:58:52.400 --> 1:58:56.280 car out, he'd always always have a bumper accident with 1:58:56.480 --> 1:59:00.160 He'd hit another car in the in the uh in 1:59:00.200 --> 1:59:03.160 the garage, and he said he was sick and tired 1:59:03.200 --> 1:59:05.440 of it. He just stopped you. He just started parking 1:59:05.480 --> 1:59:07.760 the car in the street because he was always crashing. 1:59:08.000 --> 1:59:09.920 He was always crashing when he got his car out 1:59:09.960 --> 1:59:13.400 of that garage. But it became a metaphor for always 1:59:13.400 --> 1:59:15.960 doing the same thing and expecting different results. 1:59:16.000 --> 1:59:21.440 I guess, okay, you're in Berlin. Berlin, of course is 1:59:21.480 --> 1:59:26.040 a divided city. Then the wall doesn't fall for another 1:59:26.280 --> 1:59:28.040 you know, twelve years. 1:59:28.960 --> 1:59:34.240 What was Berlin like? It was scary, honestly. When we 1:59:34.240 --> 1:59:38.080 were there, the streets were full of these huge, black 1:59:38.320 --> 1:59:46.320 armored tanks and I think they belonged to the American Yeah, 1:59:46.360 --> 1:59:48.880 they belonged to the Americans. They were not your World 1:59:48.920 --> 1:59:51.760 War two tanks. These were big, but twice as big, 1:59:52.280 --> 1:59:54.720 all black and with that paint that you can't detect. 1:59:54.760 --> 1:59:56.400 It didn't shine, you know. It was the first time 1:59:56.480 --> 1:59:59.920 it was matte paint. And the turrets, the gun start 2:00:00.160 --> 2:00:02.440 turrets were sticking right in the air and you feel 2:00:02.520 --> 2:00:05.320 you felt like they could shoot a huge missile out 2:00:05.360 --> 2:00:08.720 of it at any second if they wanted to. And 2:00:09.400 --> 2:00:11.920 that was hard. It was hard to see that every day. 2:00:12.000 --> 2:00:14.240 That was a hard thing to live with. David had 2:00:14.280 --> 2:00:16.400 been there for six months, but when I saw it, 2:00:16.400 --> 2:00:18.720 it freaked me out. When I first moved there to 2:00:19.040 --> 2:00:22.760 make the album. The second thing was which was weird 2:00:22.880 --> 2:00:28.720 was Checkpoint Charlie because we were in the the British. 2:00:28.960 --> 2:00:32.920 Wait a minute, we were in the American zone. Yeah, 2:00:33.240 --> 2:00:37.440 And the checkpoint went into the into East Berlin, where 2:00:37.480 --> 2:00:41.280 I think the British had headquarters there. I'm not sure. 2:00:41.400 --> 2:00:42.200 It was it just. 2:00:43.760 --> 2:00:47.160 Was it just the the communist Germans in that side 2:00:47.200 --> 2:00:49.400 the Russians. I know, Russians were in there. It was 2:00:49.480 --> 2:00:50.360 Russian occupied. 2:00:50.680 --> 2:00:53.120 Well East Germany was tied up with Russia, however you 2:00:53.120 --> 2:00:53.760 want to put it. 2:00:54.000 --> 2:00:56.120 Yeah, so we had a couple of experiences with them 2:00:56.160 --> 2:00:59.720 as well. So we would go in there and it 2:00:59.720 --> 2:01:02.880 was a different world. Everything was because it was a 2:01:02.880 --> 2:01:06.720 communist country. All their billboards had slogans on them, but 2:01:06.760 --> 2:01:11.520 it didn't advertise like a BMW car or Camel's cigarettes 2:01:11.600 --> 2:01:14.680 something like that. It was slogans like they like eat 2:01:14.840 --> 2:01:17.480 fish and they would have a big they would have 2:01:17.520 --> 2:01:20.800 a big picture of a fish and drink milk and 2:01:20.800 --> 2:01:22.960 they have a big glass of milk and somebody with 2:01:23.120 --> 2:01:25.360 a mustache, you know, a milk mustache on their face. 2:01:25.640 --> 2:01:28.760 But they couldn't sell products like they were driving around 2:01:28.800 --> 2:01:34.680 these little Russian cars, cars called Vatborg's and scoters. The 2:01:35.200 --> 2:01:38.520 cars came from Russia. Whereas on this decide the west 2:01:38.560 --> 2:01:41.800 side of Berlin people were driving Mercedes, Benzes and you know, 2:01:41.880 --> 2:01:45.640 all the German cars. So that was freaky to go 2:01:45.720 --> 2:01:49.800 into westo East Berlin and then when you came back 2:01:50.680 --> 2:01:54.360 your car was searched by Russian Russian guards and they'd 2:01:54.400 --> 2:01:57.320 put a panel a mirror under your car to make 2:01:57.360 --> 2:02:01.160 sure you weren't smuggling anyone's, any peaceeople who wanted to escape, 2:02:02.160 --> 2:02:05.280 and they had people who made special shoes and clamps. 2:02:05.320 --> 2:02:09.400 They could actually hold themselves underneath the car while they 2:02:09.480 --> 2:02:11.960 drove across the bridge into West Berlin, and then they 2:02:12.280 --> 2:02:16.360 released themselves. So people were actually smuggling bodies that way 2:02:16.480 --> 2:02:20.400 into West Berlin. And then then when they went through 2:02:20.480 --> 2:02:25.160 your stuff at customs, you'd, you know, they just throw 2:02:25.240 --> 2:02:27.800 everything out on the counter and everything you had, anything 2:02:27.840 --> 2:02:31.000 in your knapsack or anything like that. And then they 2:02:31.480 --> 2:02:33.840 when we went through the first time, Iggy Pop had 2:02:33.920 --> 2:02:37.760 platinum h blonde hair, and David's passport had him with 2:02:37.840 --> 2:02:41.080 the curly perm. He had his hair, had a PERM 2:02:41.120 --> 2:02:43.680 and he looked very weird. Now both of them looked different, 2:02:43.760 --> 2:02:46.520 completely different. But they looked at the passports and they 2:02:46.560 --> 2:02:50.120 looked at Iggy's passport had the actual blonde hair and 2:02:50.240 --> 2:02:53.120 now Iggy had dark hair. David had the PERM but 2:02:53.240 --> 2:02:55.920 now he had darker hair. So they would hold the 2:02:55.960 --> 2:02:58.680 passports up in the air and they'd yell, hey, Fritz 2:02:58.800 --> 2:03:01.560 come here, they get another god to come over, and 2:03:01.720 --> 2:03:05.120 suddenly all the gods would gather around the passports and 2:03:05.400 --> 2:03:09.040 die laughing. They'd be laughing in our faces, you know. 2:03:09.160 --> 2:03:10.680 Then they give that they have a good laugh, and 2:03:10.720 --> 2:03:12.640 then they gave the passports back and we could get 2:03:12.680 --> 2:03:16.120 back into West Berlin. But things like that have the 2:03:16.160 --> 2:03:19.280 weirdest things happened every day. Another one was we're making 2:03:19.360 --> 2:03:22.880 heroes in the studio which faced the Berlin Wall, so 2:03:23.040 --> 2:03:26.240 we're looking at East Berlin from our studio in West Berlin, 2:03:26.760 --> 2:03:32.160 and there was a big kind of like a castle, 2:03:32.200 --> 2:03:34.640 you know, there was a kind of a big turret. 2:03:34.640 --> 2:03:36.640 I don't know, maybe you'd call it a turret. And 2:03:36.880 --> 2:03:40.480 in there every day there was a Russian god watching 2:03:40.640 --> 2:03:44.280 us with big binoculars. He was watching us make records 2:03:45.120 --> 2:03:47.360 and they would have you know, and we could see 2:03:47.440 --> 2:03:50.080 from our side. They were so close. We could see 2:03:50.120 --> 2:03:54.240 the red star on his fuzzy gray helmet that he had, 2:03:54.600 --> 2:03:58.560 and he's wearing that big Russian overcoat for like Siberian winters, 2:03:59.160 --> 2:04:02.760 and he's watching us. So we asked our engineer, who 2:04:02.880 --> 2:04:05.320 is a lovely man, we said, doesn't this freak you out? 2:04:05.360 --> 2:04:07.560 With Russian gods like looking at every day. It's freaking 2:04:07.680 --> 2:04:10.280 us out. He goes, nah, doesn't, doesn't freak me out. 2:04:10.680 --> 2:04:13.680 And he took the overhead light that was hanging from 2:04:13.720 --> 2:04:16.160 a wire and he aimed it right at the Russian 2:04:16.200 --> 2:04:18.880 God and he started sticking his tongue out and sticking 2:04:18.960 --> 2:04:22.440 up the middle finger. That's the Russian God. So David 2:04:22.520 --> 2:04:25.600 and I dove underneath the recording console. Who he said, 2:04:26.080 --> 2:04:30.640 don't fucking do that, you know, don't do it. And 2:04:30.960 --> 2:04:33.240 he said, ah, it's okay. They can't shoot us. If 2:04:33.320 --> 2:04:35.800 you know, if they did, it would be World War three. 2:04:36.160 --> 2:04:39.920 You couldn't exchange fire. If anything like that happened to 2:04:40.000 --> 2:04:43.240 Checkpoint Charlie, we would have been at war again in 2:04:43.360 --> 2:04:48.080 the seventies. So they could restrain themselves. And the other 2:04:48.160 --> 2:04:51.080 funny thing was David one night went by the wall 2:04:51.160 --> 2:04:54.520 on the west side West Berlinside. He was dating a 2:04:54.640 --> 2:04:57.320 girl and he just decided he dropped her off and 2:04:57.400 --> 2:05:00.800 he took his car right by the wall and the 2:05:00.840 --> 2:05:03.240 other side of where all the Russians are, and he 2:05:03.600 --> 2:05:06.400 lights up a cigarette and somebody taps on his window. 2:05:07.000 --> 2:05:10.120 It was a Red Guard from the from East Berlin. 2:05:11.760 --> 2:05:14.920 David found out there were other tunnels that nobody knew about. 2:05:15.280 --> 2:05:17.640 The Red Guard came into the west just for a 2:05:17.720 --> 2:05:20.520 little stroll. This is about three in the morning, and 2:05:20.600 --> 2:05:23.480 he said, do you have a light? He ysked David 2:05:23.560 --> 2:05:28.760 for a light, freaked David out. He soon got out 2:05:28.800 --> 2:05:30.960 of there. He never went back to that spot again. 2:05:32.120 --> 2:05:36.880 And so next comes Heroes, Yeah, which ultimately is a 2:05:37.040 --> 2:05:40.280 success then, but becomes legendary over the decades. 2:05:41.600 --> 2:05:44.520 Right, Well, that was taking Berlin for a place to 2:05:44.600 --> 2:05:46.800 live that was really good. He and Niggy had been 2:05:46.840 --> 2:05:49.000 living there for at least almost a good part of 2:05:49.040 --> 2:05:51.640 a year and they were used to this going back 2:05:51.680 --> 2:05:54.680 and forth. They knew all the local drink they knew 2:05:54.680 --> 2:05:58.640 all the local drinking spots, and we went out there. 2:05:58.720 --> 2:06:02.080 They would often dress with as working men, so they all, 2:06:02.280 --> 2:06:04.240 the two of them, had scarfs and they would wear 2:06:04.280 --> 2:06:08.040 these andy cap you know, these these hats that workers 2:06:09.600 --> 2:06:12.160 in the fruit markets where to keep that top of 2:06:12.200 --> 2:06:14.920 their head warm. So they thought they could pass as Berliners, 2:06:14.960 --> 2:06:17.600 and that they actually did, you know, until they spoke English. 2:06:18.280 --> 2:06:20.800 But we often ordered in German. It was easy to order, 2:06:20.880 --> 2:06:23.840 you know, si beer, you know, and then when you 2:06:23.920 --> 2:06:26.560 wanted to pay you would say, v feel how much 2:06:27.360 --> 2:06:28.920 things like that? We learned that, We learned a few 2:06:29.160 --> 2:06:32.040 good words. So maybe the Germans knew we were in German, 2:06:32.160 --> 2:06:34.600 but you know, they were trying definitely to blend in. 2:06:35.880 --> 2:06:39.960 So you continue to work with Bowie until all of 2:06:39.960 --> 2:06:43.200 a sudden there's a schism in his sound and he 2:06:43.320 --> 2:06:47.880 works with now Rogers on Legs Dance. How did that happen? 2:06:48.080 --> 2:06:50.080 How did you end up not being involved? 2:06:51.280 --> 2:06:56.080 Well, before that happened, we did an incredible album called 2:06:56.120 --> 2:06:59.800 Scary Monsters Right, which which was number one and most 2:07:00.240 --> 2:07:04.600 of the world. So that was I thought, well, we're 2:07:04.640 --> 2:07:07.000 going to make a great record after this. The next 2:07:07.040 --> 2:07:10.080 one's going to be killer. The next record was Let's Dance, 2:07:10.800 --> 2:07:15.440 and his instead of him phoning me, Coco phoned me 2:07:15.600 --> 2:07:19.720 his assistant and she said, David's very sorry, but he 2:07:20.040 --> 2:07:23.920 just met Nile and they got on really really well 2:07:24.640 --> 2:07:26.840 and they're going to make an album together. So he's 2:07:26.920 --> 2:07:29.240 very very He said, you know, you'll make the next one, 2:07:29.280 --> 2:07:32.520 he says, but he wants he wants to work with Nile. 2:07:32.600 --> 2:07:34.640 It's very important to him. They got on really really well. 2:07:34.680 --> 2:07:40.040 So I said, okay, and I was really crestfallen. I 2:07:40.160 --> 2:07:43.920 really was, but it turned out great. You know, Let's 2:07:44.000 --> 2:07:46.320 Dance is a big hit, and he said, that's why 2:07:46.440 --> 2:07:49.280 I did it. I wanted that sound, and I knew 2:07:49.280 --> 2:07:50.640 I was going to get a hit record with him. 2:07:50.680 --> 2:07:54.000 I needed another international hit, which Nile gave him. And 2:07:54.120 --> 2:07:55.600 I take my hat off to him. 2:07:56.280 --> 2:07:59.440 You know, although I do like modern love. If I 2:07:59.560 --> 2:08:03.040 never hear Let's Dance again, that's okay with me. Seemed 2:08:03.040 --> 2:08:05.960 a little obvious, but brought him back then he worked 2:08:06.000 --> 2:08:09.120 with you, pagem before he goes back to you. What's 2:08:09.160 --> 2:08:10.280 his explanation there? 2:08:11.920 --> 2:08:17.200 He we had a thing like we came together and 2:08:17.480 --> 2:08:21.440 we worked a part many times, and I by then 2:08:21.560 --> 2:08:23.440 I couldn't blame him. He's, oh, he's looking for a 2:08:23.560 --> 2:08:25.480 new sound. He thought, maybe when he works with me, 2:08:25.600 --> 2:08:27.800 it's going to be predictable, it's going to be another 2:08:27.880 --> 2:08:30.200 the man who sold the world or heroes and all that. 2:08:30.800 --> 2:08:34.160 So he would love to like pay a producer to 2:08:35.200 --> 2:08:37.520 get a new fresh set of sounds. I think you 2:08:37.600 --> 2:08:39.680 page him worked with the Police or something. I don't know, 2:08:40.320 --> 2:08:42.840 the other great band. You know, he wanted a bit 2:08:42.880 --> 2:08:46.040 of the modern sound, but he'd always come back to 2:08:46.160 --> 2:08:49.960 me and for another record, Like you know, Diamond Dogs 2:08:50.040 --> 2:08:56.040 was a comeback record. Heathen was a comeback record after 2:08:56.120 --> 2:08:58.360 he worked, Like after we didn't speak to each other 2:08:58.440 --> 2:09:01.520 for ten years, he comes back one day and he says, 2:09:01.760 --> 2:09:04.280 how'd you like to get together and make another record together? 2:09:04.400 --> 2:09:06.640 You know? So I ended up making his last four 2:09:06.680 --> 2:09:09.280 albums with no right other producer in between. 2:09:09.880 --> 2:09:15.160 But before we get there, he is legendary for changing direction. 2:09:16.160 --> 2:09:19.200 Was that very conscious you were? 2:09:19.320 --> 2:09:19.560 There? 2:09:20.480 --> 2:09:22.400 Was he saying I did this, I need to do 2:09:22.520 --> 2:09:25.839 something different, or it's just in retrospect, it was different. 2:09:26.920 --> 2:09:29.600 Well, you know, he didn't get that name chameleon for nothing. 2:09:29.960 --> 2:09:33.400 It also referred to his change of musical tastes and styles. 2:09:34.240 --> 2:09:37.080 He constantly listened to new music. He would bring a 2:09:37.160 --> 2:09:40.720 stack of records with him whenever we we'd meet up, 2:09:40.760 --> 2:09:43.880 and we would go through the latest releases, and he'd 2:09:43.920 --> 2:09:45.480 want to make sure that I was up to date. 2:09:46.160 --> 2:09:50.640 And I would be with him and he could take 2:09:50.720 --> 2:09:54.720 someone's sound like oh what was that other one? Oh gosh, 2:09:56.080 --> 2:09:58.920 nine inch nails. He blatantly said, you know, I'll make 2:09:58.960 --> 2:10:00.640 a record with you and I I'm going to take 2:10:00.640 --> 2:10:02.400 your sound and I'll be your lead singer, so he 2:10:02.400 --> 2:10:05.680 would be Nile Rodgers's lead singer. That's he kind of 2:10:05.720 --> 2:10:08.760 spent that period being other group's lead singer, and he 2:10:08.920 --> 2:10:12.520 copped their sound. He'd steal their sound, but with their blessings. 2:10:12.520 --> 2:10:14.760 Because you know that by then, to work with David 2:10:14.800 --> 2:10:17.160 Bowie was like one of the greatest achievements in a 2:10:17.760 --> 2:10:20.480 producer's life or another rock star's life. 2:10:22.000 --> 2:10:26.400 And you you know, you talk about the last four records, Okay, 2:10:26.480 --> 2:10:30.720 we have The Next Day in two thy thirteen. Then 2:10:30.800 --> 2:10:34.560 of course the final album Blackstar. At this point in 2:10:34.680 --> 2:10:38.040 time was so much changing. Is he just want to 2:10:38.360 --> 2:10:40.040 lay down what he wants to lay down or is 2:10:40.080 --> 2:10:43.640 he still conscious of what's going on in charts, et cetera. 2:10:44.200 --> 2:10:47.200 Oh, he was forever interested in the charts. And the 2:10:47.320 --> 2:10:50.720 Next Day was on purpose. It was a retro look 2:10:50.800 --> 2:10:53.720 back at his other styles. So The Next Day is 2:10:53.920 --> 2:10:56.640 done in a lot of different David Bowie styles. But 2:10:56.760 --> 2:11:00.160 for Blackstar, he wanted to do his dream record that 2:11:00.280 --> 2:11:02.880 he never really achieved. He made a few attempts in 2:11:02.960 --> 2:11:06.040 the past, but he wanted to make a jazz based album. 2:11:07.120 --> 2:11:09.800 It had to he wanted to make it with jazz musicians, 2:11:10.960 --> 2:11:14.720 so he met this guy called Donnie McCaslin, who's an 2:11:14.800 --> 2:11:18.040 incredible sax player, and Donnie had a four piece band 2:11:18.920 --> 2:11:22.280 and he said, come, I want you to see this 2:11:22.480 --> 2:11:24.920 band because I'm thinking of using them. So we went 2:11:25.040 --> 2:11:28.280 down to the Blue Note in New York together, and 2:11:28.440 --> 2:11:33.160 I thought Donnie was fantastic. He just great. I loved him, 2:11:33.480 --> 2:11:37.520 loved all his players in the band, And when we 2:11:37.600 --> 2:11:42.640 got closer to Black Star, we had a couple of 2:11:43.120 --> 2:11:48.839 experiences with them. We recorded with Forget her Name again. Anyway, 2:11:48.880 --> 2:11:51.760 we had a session we worked with Donnie prior to 2:11:52.360 --> 2:11:54.920 Black Star, and we knew he was going to work. Also, 2:11:55.080 --> 2:11:59.840 Mark Juliana, the drummer in his band, was absolutely unbelievable 2:12:00.120 --> 2:12:02.840 and like him, this guy was a loop master. You 2:12:02.960 --> 2:12:05.200 thought it was a drum loop, but it's a real 2:12:05.280 --> 2:12:07.640 musician playing the same pattern over and over again for 2:12:08.240 --> 2:12:12.080 seven minutes. He was just a genius. So we had 2:12:12.160 --> 2:12:16.200 a pre production, was just one little rehearsal, and then 2:12:16.680 --> 2:12:19.280 David seeing me the day before and telling me that 2:12:20.480 --> 2:12:25.240 he was he was getting chemo treatment. So he said, 2:12:25.520 --> 2:12:27.400 I can't start this album with letting you know that, 2:12:27.480 --> 2:12:30.120 without letting you know that, And then the next day 2:12:30.160 --> 2:12:33.320 we started the album with the band, and he did 2:12:33.360 --> 2:12:35.280 the same thing. He gathered them all together in the 2:12:35.320 --> 2:12:38.160 studio and then he said, he told them the same 2:12:38.240 --> 2:12:41.480 thing he told me the day before. So he wasn't 2:12:41.560 --> 2:12:43.760 dead beat about it. He was quite upbeat about it. 2:12:43.800 --> 2:12:45.960 He says, but we're going to make the best album ever. 2:12:46.080 --> 2:12:47.920 We're gonna just you know, I want you guys to 2:12:48.000 --> 2:12:52.320 do your thing, don't hold back. And he gave them. 2:12:52.400 --> 2:12:56.440 He gave Danny. He gave Donnie a handful of demos, 2:12:56.440 --> 2:12:58.680 which is the first time he never gave me a demo. 2:12:59.360 --> 2:13:02.440 I always had the demos before we started. But his 2:13:02.760 --> 2:13:05.560 idea was to not have my influence at all on 2:13:06.400 --> 2:13:09.880 the creative part. At that level. He wanted this to 2:13:10.000 --> 2:13:12.920 be purely an album between him and Donnie and the 2:13:13.040 --> 2:13:16.440 band Donnie's band. So that's why it sounds so different 2:13:17.160 --> 2:13:23.000 and really really interesting and he's fulfilling his dream. He 2:13:23.160 --> 2:13:27.360 always recorded live in the room with them, and I 2:13:27.480 --> 2:13:29.400 have the master tapes and at the end you could 2:13:29.440 --> 2:13:32.640 hear him like laughing and cracking up talking to the band. 2:13:32.720 --> 2:13:35.480 These were his kind of people that he wanted to 2:13:35.520 --> 2:13:38.440 work with. At last, his other musicians that he made 2:13:38.480 --> 2:13:41.160 albums with prior to this, they some of them could 2:13:41.160 --> 2:13:44.120 play jazz, but it would be rock musicians playing jazz. 2:13:44.640 --> 2:13:47.080 But he felt, let's get the real thing, Let's get 2:13:47.120 --> 2:13:49.720 real jazz musicians, and instead it would have been a 2:13:49.760 --> 2:13:52.520 different album. But the songs that he wrote for Black Star, 2:13:52.640 --> 2:13:54.600 which just broke my heart, some of them, they were 2:13:54.640 --> 2:13:58.680 so beautiful and telltale. I mean, he's telling you, he's 2:13:58.680 --> 2:14:00.320 wearing his heart on his sleeve on that album. 2:14:01.320 --> 2:14:04.360 You know, he tells everybody involved that he has is 2:14:04.480 --> 2:14:08.600 being treeated. Was he optimistic at that point and then 2:14:08.680 --> 2:14:11.080 had to face the fact that it was terminal or 2:14:11.240 --> 2:14:12.440 was he hiding it from you? 2:14:14.600 --> 2:14:17.800 He was optimistic because he was going for the treatments. 2:14:17.960 --> 2:14:21.160 He wouldn't have gone if if he wasn't optimistic, and 2:14:21.600 --> 2:14:23.840 it happened. You know, his death was almost a year 2:14:23.920 --> 2:14:30.120 later from from that, and you know, he was good. 2:14:30.160 --> 2:14:31.720 Sometimes he had to leave early because he was a 2:14:31.760 --> 2:14:35.879 little tired, and so our days would end around five o'clock. 2:14:35.920 --> 2:14:37.640 But there were there were always things to do in 2:14:37.720 --> 2:14:42.680 his absence. So Donnie would play four saxophones and build 2:14:42.760 --> 2:14:45.040 up a sack section, things like that, and we'd play 2:14:45.080 --> 2:14:46.880 it to David the next day and he'd like what 2:14:46.960 --> 2:14:51.120 we had done. But he never never wore a gloomy face. 2:14:51.240 --> 2:14:54.360 He was absolutely smiling from ear to ear whenever he 2:14:54.520 --> 2:14:56.760 came to the sessions. He was in a great mood. 2:14:57.800 --> 2:15:01.160 And when the record was done. You know, interesting thing 2:15:01.280 --> 2:15:04.720 is it was released serendipitously just about when he died. 2:15:05.560 --> 2:15:08.360 Were you in contact with him in the ensuing months 2:15:08.400 --> 2:15:11.080 subsequent to the completion of the album, and how did 2:15:11.160 --> 2:15:12.600 you find out that he passed? 2:15:13.200 --> 2:15:16.280 Well? When the album ended, he was in great health. 2:15:16.600 --> 2:15:21.120 He was really fit. He was doing exercises. I didn't 2:15:21.320 --> 2:15:23.520 I stopped asking whether he was doing chemo or not. 2:15:24.520 --> 2:15:27.320 And because it was just such a regular thing. I mean, 2:15:27.960 --> 2:15:30.160 you know that was interesting. At the beginning of the album, 2:15:30.160 --> 2:15:31.560 at the end of the album, we were just a 2:15:31.640 --> 2:15:36.600 bunch of musicians making records. I saw him for lunches again, 2:15:36.760 --> 2:15:40.280 things like that. And then closer we got to Christmas, 2:15:40.800 --> 2:15:44.200 he had his family over and he was so pleased 2:15:44.200 --> 2:15:45.880 to her. He phoned me up and he said that 2:15:46.000 --> 2:15:50.800 he was He said he was going to become a grandfather. 2:15:51.440 --> 2:15:53.800 He's very proud of that. And I kept that secret. 2:15:53.840 --> 2:15:55.480 He said, this is a secret. Don't tell anyone. I 2:15:55.600 --> 2:16:00.160 kept that secret, and that he said he was going 2:16:00.200 --> 2:16:03.320 to resume some therapy. Afterwards, he says, everything's going great. 2:16:03.320 --> 2:16:07.240 I'll be fine, everything's going great. But you know, it 2:16:07.400 --> 2:16:10.400 wasn't going great. And he phoned up a lot of 2:16:10.480 --> 2:16:13.120 people in that month, so he was kind. It was 2:16:13.240 --> 2:16:15.480 kind of a goodbye. I heard from a lot of 2:16:15.560 --> 2:16:17.720 my friends. He was making phone calls to everyone he 2:16:17.840 --> 2:16:22.200 worked with, old friends, and he never actually said anything. 2:16:22.280 --> 2:16:24.480 He was just like getting up to date, probably telling 2:16:24.520 --> 2:16:26.600 them the same thing. He was going to become a grandfather. 2:16:26.720 --> 2:16:29.920 Don't tell anybody things like that. So I went on 2:16:30.080 --> 2:16:32.760 tour with my band, Holy Holy. We were doing a 2:16:32.800 --> 2:16:39.240 Bowie tribute tour and I was in Toronto and something. 2:16:40.480 --> 2:16:42.640 My alarm went off at eight in the morning and 2:16:43.440 --> 2:16:47.360 my watch, I didn't see my clock my iPhone and 2:16:47.480 --> 2:16:49.959 I looked at it and I saw David Bowie passed 2:16:50.879 --> 2:16:52.879 at eight o'clock in the morning. I saw he passed. 2:16:53.040 --> 2:16:57.280 And this is December tenth. And later there's a knock 2:16:57.360 --> 2:16:59.440 on my door. In the group. They come in my room. 2:16:59.520 --> 2:17:02.480 They say, Tony, I'm sorry to tell you something terrible 2:17:02.520 --> 2:17:06.480 has happened. I go, I know, And we had another 2:17:06.560 --> 2:17:10.960 show to play in Toronto that night, and said we 2:17:11.080 --> 2:17:12.680 had to have a group meeting. What are we going 2:17:12.720 --> 2:17:16.120 to do about this? And I said, I don't know. 2:17:16.400 --> 2:17:18.800 I think David, you know, without sending code, I think 2:17:18.840 --> 2:17:20.760 the show must go on. We have this is our 2:17:20.840 --> 2:17:25.119 last date. These fans are going to want to mourn 2:17:25.240 --> 2:17:27.760 his death. They're going to and we're going to celebrate 2:17:27.840 --> 2:17:30.400 his life. Let's go and do the show. And even 2:17:30.480 --> 2:17:32.960 the promoterst begged, I just would I hope you're not 2:17:33.000 --> 2:17:34.840 going to cancel the show. I said, no, we'll do it. 2:17:34.920 --> 2:17:37.760 We'll do it. So we played seven of us. We 2:17:37.840 --> 2:17:41.480 played to you know, a rows and rows of people 2:17:41.680 --> 2:17:44.560 crying their eyes out, and then it was infectious. You know, 2:17:44.879 --> 2:17:48.640 I'm playing I'm crying my eyes out, playing bass, lead singers, 2:17:48.760 --> 2:17:52.200 choking on the words. And finally it's settled down. By 2:17:52.240 --> 2:17:54.840 the second half of the show, we all calm down 2:17:54.959 --> 2:17:58.080 with saying nice things about David. What else can you do? 2:17:58.320 --> 2:18:01.040 You know? And that was the end of the tour 2:18:01.080 --> 2:18:04.920 and I went back and none of us, nobody, there 2:18:04.959 --> 2:18:07.040 was no funeral that I knew of, you know, it 2:18:07.160 --> 2:18:11.560 was just a family thing. I have no idea how 2:18:11.680 --> 2:18:16.520 it went after he died, but he said it's goodbye 2:18:16.560 --> 2:18:16.720 to me. 2:18:17.640 --> 2:18:22.600 Subsequent to his passing, there been you're let's just use 2:18:22.680 --> 2:18:26.160 the term Bowie tribute tour, but there's been another Bowie 2:18:26.400 --> 2:18:29.680 tribute tour with Adrian Blue. Are you fine with that 2:18:29.840 --> 2:18:34.200 or are you unhappy with that? Here's the difference. There's 2:18:34.240 --> 2:18:36.199 a tour now with all of them that the Bowie 2:18:36.320 --> 2:18:40.680 people who came at the afterwards, they Adrian actually played 2:18:40.760 --> 2:18:43.440 on an album, he played on larger, but a lot 2:18:43.480 --> 2:18:46.320 of the people were just his live people, his live 2:18:46.400 --> 2:18:49.520 show people, and some of them played on their albums 2:18:49.560 --> 2:18:51.720 and all that. It's just an alumn that's called an 2:18:51.720 --> 2:18:56.000 alumni tour. The reason I did that tribute Ben Woody 2:18:56.080 --> 2:18:58.640 Woodmansey and I played on The Man Who Sold the World. 2:18:58.760 --> 2:19:00.840 It started as a Man Who Saw the World tour. 2:19:01.280 --> 2:19:05.240 We are the original musicians and we felt that we 2:19:05.400 --> 2:19:08.680 had the right to do this to form this band. 2:19:09.160 --> 2:19:12.960 We always the tribute was to David, and we always 2:19:13.000 --> 2:19:15.040 had a pause in the middle of the show saying 2:19:15.080 --> 2:19:18.480 a nice little anecdote about David. And we felt that 2:19:18.680 --> 2:19:21.120 it was our right to do this without feeling bad 2:19:21.200 --> 2:19:23.600 about it, that we're just capitalizing on his death. 2:19:24.640 --> 2:19:28.080 He actually didn't. He died after we started this tour. 2:19:29.240 --> 2:19:31.760 We started it as a Bowie tribute show, and he 2:19:32.200 --> 2:19:35.080 asked me, he said, why are you doing this? And 2:19:35.160 --> 2:19:37.400 I said, because when we finished The Man of Soul 2:19:37.480 --> 2:19:40.600 the World, you split up the group. We went four 2:19:40.640 --> 2:19:44.880 different ways. Mick and Woody went back to Hull and you, 2:19:45.360 --> 2:19:47.200 you know, did your thing. You were doing your thing. 2:19:47.560 --> 2:19:53.280 He goes, oh, that's right, I said, he forgot. I said, 2:19:53.440 --> 2:19:54.960 that's why we're doing this. We do you feel we 2:19:55.040 --> 2:19:57.360 could do this? And we got a guy who sings 2:19:57.480 --> 2:19:59.280 very well. Would you like to see a video of 2:19:59.400 --> 2:20:01.960 one song? So I played the width of a Circle 2:20:02.000 --> 2:20:04.760 to him and he sat just behind where I'm sitting 2:20:04.840 --> 2:20:07.840 now and he said that's really good. At the end 2:20:07.840 --> 2:20:09.720 of he gouse, that's really great. You guys did a 2:20:09.800 --> 2:20:12.480 great job, because he says, if we stuck together, we 2:20:12.560 --> 2:20:17.000 would we would have sounded that good. You know, you're 2:20:17.240 --> 2:20:19.600 better rehearsed than we were at the time. I said, 2:20:19.760 --> 2:20:22.400 would you put that in writing? He says, no, absolutely not. 2:20:24.440 --> 2:20:26.880 It would have been nice if you endorsed the tour. 2:20:27.000 --> 2:20:27.880 But he died after this. 2:20:29.000 --> 2:20:32.360 You have these incredible highlights with David Bowie and t Rex. 2:20:32.440 --> 2:20:36.240 But you also did records with General Giant, the Moody 2:20:36.400 --> 2:20:40.080 Blues Bad Finger when it was still called the Ivy's. 2:20:40.160 --> 2:20:42.120 There's a lot of stuff there. But before we go, 2:20:43.240 --> 2:20:46.760 one thing you mentioned. You said you were writing songs 2:20:46.840 --> 2:20:50.800 with your wife. So when did you get married and 2:20:50.920 --> 2:20:52.960 did that wife go to England with you? 2:20:54.280 --> 2:20:57.480 That was nineteen sixty seven. That was her name was 2:20:57.560 --> 2:21:01.760 Sigrid and she was in a German America. That was 2:21:01.800 --> 2:21:03.879 the wife. Then I was married to Mary Hopkin. 2:21:04.520 --> 2:21:07.120 Well before we get to marry Hopkin. Yeah, your first wife. 2:21:07.160 --> 2:21:08.240 Did she go to London with you? 2:21:08.640 --> 2:21:12.560 Yes, she did, and she left after about seven months 2:21:13.480 --> 2:21:15.320 without me knowing it. I got home from work in 2:21:15.400 --> 2:21:17.480 the apartment, all her clothes were gone. 2:21:18.320 --> 2:21:23.040 Whoaha, whoa whoa, whoa, whoa who Did you have any 2:21:23.160 --> 2:21:24.640 idea and what did that feel like? 2:21:25.080 --> 2:21:29.480 Well, we were a singing duo and in New York, 2:21:29.720 --> 2:21:33.200 but that never continued when we moved to London. All 2:21:33.200 --> 2:21:36.480 of a sudden, my career was taking off and Segur 2:21:36.720 --> 2:21:38.800 was a stay at home wife and I didn't know 2:21:39.280 --> 2:21:43.640 how to deal with that. I invited her to come 2:21:43.680 --> 2:21:46.640 to the recording sessions and sit in but there was 2:21:46.720 --> 2:21:49.440 nothing for her to do, so she left me. She 2:21:49.520 --> 2:21:52.120 went back to her to live with her mother for 2:21:52.200 --> 2:21:56.000 a while. And by the way, like today, she's a tycoon. 2:21:56.200 --> 2:21:59.960 She builds, she builds office buildings in Manhattan. 2:22:01.280 --> 2:22:04.879 She Wow, did she get remarried? 2:22:06.040 --> 2:22:09.039 Yeah, a couple of times. But you know I met 2:22:09.040 --> 2:22:10.680 I met up with her a few years ago, and 2:22:11.240 --> 2:22:14.160 she's dressed to the nines. You know, she's dressed so beautifully, 2:22:14.600 --> 2:22:17.120 just for a chat. It was her idea. So she 2:22:17.240 --> 2:22:20.680 looks at me, and I'm already a successful record producers. 2:22:21.000 --> 2:22:22.640 So she looks at me and says the first thing 2:22:22.680 --> 2:22:25.320 out of her mouth, so do you need any money? 2:22:27.879 --> 2:22:28.400 First thing? 2:22:29.000 --> 2:22:31.520 There was the one upman ship. She just had to do. 2:22:31.920 --> 2:22:32.800 She just had to do that. 2:22:34.200 --> 2:22:39.360 Okay, you're making record with the ivs, become bad Finger, Magic, Christian, etcetera. 2:22:39.720 --> 2:22:41.400 How do you meet Mary Hopkins? 2:22:42.680 --> 2:22:45.800 That was interesting because I did work with the Ivy's 2:22:45.920 --> 2:22:48.519 and I was in and out of the Apple offices 2:22:48.760 --> 2:22:51.280 all the time. You know, you could anyone could walk 2:22:51.320 --> 2:22:53.720 in off the street. You've heard about this, whether Hell's 2:22:53.760 --> 2:22:57.360 angels could walk in anything, you know, And so I 2:22:57.480 --> 2:23:00.160 met a lot of people around the offices and they 2:23:00.240 --> 2:23:03.080 knew me, they knew I was working with t Rex, 2:23:03.720 --> 2:23:06.680 things like that. And I just got a call out 2:23:06.680 --> 2:23:12.760 of the blue from Mary's manager who said, we like 2:23:14.480 --> 2:23:18.080 Mary wants to make a folk album. She's doesn't want 2:23:18.080 --> 2:23:20.240 to be a pop star anymore. She doesn't she had 2:23:20.280 --> 2:23:22.040 the big hit with Paul McCartney and all that, and 2:23:22.080 --> 2:23:25.560 then she feels like people used her voice in the 2:23:25.600 --> 2:23:27.880 wrong way. She wants to make a folk album and 2:23:28.000 --> 2:23:30.520 she loves the music that you made with Ralph mctel 2:23:31.000 --> 2:23:35.400 and the Strawbes, to two folk artists that I've worked with. 2:23:36.080 --> 2:23:39.280 She says, I want that sound. So I said, well, 2:23:40.120 --> 2:23:42.280 I can do that for her. I can get Ralph 2:23:42.320 --> 2:23:45.039 mctel playing one guitar and Dave Cousin's playing the other 2:23:46.080 --> 2:23:49.160 and Danny Thompson in the middle on a double bass 2:23:49.560 --> 2:23:54.480 who played with Pentangle. And so I met Mary and 2:23:54.879 --> 2:23:56.880 told her all this, and she looked at me like 2:23:58.160 --> 2:24:00.680 I was like Jesus or something like that. This is 2:24:00.840 --> 2:24:03.400 exactly what she wanted to do. And she was thrilled 2:24:03.440 --> 2:24:08.039 as somebody was listening to her, you know, because Paul 2:24:08.120 --> 2:24:10.440 McCartney just thought she was going to be a pop star, 2:24:10.720 --> 2:24:13.080 you know, like he thought that was everyone's goal. But 2:24:13.200 --> 2:24:16.400 her roots were always folk music. She played in folk 2:24:16.440 --> 2:24:19.680 clubs in Wales and she was bilingual. She used to 2:24:19.760 --> 2:24:23.800 sing in Welsh to all these men's clubs. You know, 2:24:23.959 --> 2:24:27.039 they'd be drinking, knocking back pints of ale and singing 2:24:27.120 --> 2:24:30.040 in Welsh and all that. She was great, you know, 2:24:30.160 --> 2:24:33.120 but she wasn't a pop singer. So that's how it happened. 2:24:33.160 --> 2:24:37.720 I made her this album, Earth Song, Ocean Song. I 2:24:37.840 --> 2:24:40.959 spent at least two or three months looking for music 2:24:41.120 --> 2:24:44.960 she wasn't writing. Then I found some good songs for 2:24:45.040 --> 2:24:47.480 her in New York and brought him back to London 2:24:47.959 --> 2:24:50.800 and she was so thrilled. I mean, that was for her. 2:24:50.879 --> 2:24:52.119 It was the best thing she ever did. 2:24:53.080 --> 2:24:54.640 So how did it turn into a romance? 2:24:55.840 --> 2:25:00.320 That happened during the making of the album to get 2:25:00.320 --> 2:25:04.080 a lift home with her one night? And she had 2:25:04.120 --> 2:25:07.200 a limo in those days, a big Bentley limo, and 2:25:08.160 --> 2:25:10.240 you know, would you come in for like would you 2:25:10.320 --> 2:25:13.000 like to come in for a cup of tea? That's 2:25:13.040 --> 2:25:13.760 how it happened. 2:25:15.760 --> 2:25:19.760 Okay, you get married. She does not have another hit, 2:25:20.480 --> 2:25:23.560 does she care? Or is she done? Now? 2:25:23.760 --> 2:25:26.680 She did what she wanted to do. She didn't have 2:25:26.760 --> 2:25:30.200 another hit, because that would mean the public wanted her 2:25:30.280 --> 2:25:32.280 to be that Mary Hopkin, the one who sang those 2:25:32.360 --> 2:25:35.720 were the days. And she was eighteen when she did that. 2:25:35.920 --> 2:25:38.160 Now you know, she's a twenty two year old woman 2:25:38.440 --> 2:25:43.160 married to me. She has kids. And she said, you know, 2:25:43.640 --> 2:25:45.400 I said, are you going to go back on the 2:25:45.480 --> 2:25:47.840 road or what are you going to do? Do you? 2:25:48.320 --> 2:25:51.840 You know, we did a few gigs together with Dave 2:25:51.959 --> 2:25:56.440 Cousins and Danny Thompson and the Royal Albert Hall, and 2:25:56.760 --> 2:25:59.039 the audience you could see them float up in the air. 2:25:59.760 --> 2:26:02.160 She saying like an angel, you know she had, there's 2:26:02.200 --> 2:26:04.720 no voice like hers. And she said no. She says, 2:26:04.959 --> 2:26:07.000 what's the use of having children if you're just going 2:26:07.040 --> 2:26:09.080 to go out and work and do gigs. She says, 2:26:09.120 --> 2:26:11.680 I'm finished, I'm done. I don't want to do it anymore. 2:26:12.160 --> 2:26:14.959 So she used our kids. But you know, quite rightly, 2:26:15.040 --> 2:26:17.200 I think she did that made the right decision because 2:26:17.240 --> 2:26:19.760 she turned out to be the best mother to my 2:26:19.879 --> 2:26:22.960 two oldest children. You know who I am still in 2:26:23.080 --> 2:26:25.879 touch with constantly, and Mary and I are friends. 2:26:25.959 --> 2:26:28.160 Now. By the way, well how did it end with 2:26:28.240 --> 2:26:28.840 you and Mary? 2:26:30.959 --> 2:26:34.720 I cheated on her. She would to stay at home. 2:26:34.800 --> 2:26:37.520 Mom was not what I married. You know, I was 2:26:37.600 --> 2:26:41.240 this wild guy. I was a wild, crazy young man 2:26:42.120 --> 2:26:46.320 and I wasn't a very good husband. That's it. I 2:26:46.400 --> 2:26:47.800 have nothing to say in my defense. 2:26:49.560 --> 2:26:51.400 I think that kind of says it all. Then you 2:26:51.520 --> 2:26:54.160 get involved with me. Pang, who came up earlier in 2:26:54.240 --> 2:26:56.120 the podcast, how did that happen? 2:26:56.800 --> 2:27:00.240 Well, that was under the friendliest circumstances. I'm I met 2:27:00.280 --> 2:27:04.360 her when she left John. After she left, I met 2:27:04.400 --> 2:27:08.520 her at some kind of do and we went out 2:27:08.560 --> 2:27:10.920 on a date. I was single. I didn't cheat on 2:27:11.000 --> 2:27:13.360 any wife to go out with me. Pang, I was single, 2:27:14.120 --> 2:27:18.280 and we had a little romance in New York and 2:27:18.400 --> 2:27:23.880 then when I went back to England, she phoned me 2:27:23.959 --> 2:27:29.680 up one day after that little romance and said, how 2:27:29.720 --> 2:27:35.080 do you feel about babies? And I said, I like babies. 2:27:35.080 --> 2:27:39.400 I've got two kids already. I love babies. Because how 2:27:39.400 --> 2:27:41.320 would you like to be a father? Again? I go, 2:27:42.280 --> 2:27:45.400 what are you trying to tell me? She says, you're 2:27:45.440 --> 2:27:47.480 going to be a father. If you don't want to 2:27:47.520 --> 2:27:49.880 be a father, let me know, I'll get rid of it. 2:27:50.760 --> 2:27:53.640 But what do you want to do? And I thought 2:27:53.680 --> 2:27:56.280 for a minute, and this is now. I didn't live 2:27:56.360 --> 2:27:58.960 with kids for at least a decade by this point, 2:27:59.720 --> 2:28:01.960 and I made up my mind on the spot. I said, 2:28:02.720 --> 2:28:07.880 have the baby. And she goes and I said, and 2:28:08.080 --> 2:28:11.360 everything that goes with it. What do you mean by that? 2:28:12.080 --> 2:28:16.320 I said, will you marry me? I was in a session. 2:28:16.360 --> 2:28:19.640 I was in a recording session, and then I come 2:28:19.720 --> 2:28:21.960 out of the wherever I was taking the phone call 2:28:22.440 --> 2:28:24.120 and I told everyone I was working with, I'm going 2:28:24.200 --> 2:28:28.240 to be a father. It sounds flippant, but it was 2:28:28.320 --> 2:28:30.640 really romantic in a way. I mean the way she 2:28:30.800 --> 2:28:34.320 asked me, the way she kept rephrasing it and rephrasing 2:28:34.360 --> 2:28:37.280 it was very interesting, but it was. It was a 2:28:37.360 --> 2:28:39.720 great you know, I think all my marriages were great 2:28:39.840 --> 2:28:42.640 up to a point. I'm not a good husband. That's 2:28:42.680 --> 2:28:43.680 a conclusion I came to. 2:28:44.160 --> 2:28:45.560 So how did it end with me? Pang? 2:28:48.920 --> 2:28:54.080 Well, how do I put this? We started arguing a lot, 2:28:54.240 --> 2:29:00.960 and she was reliving her life again in the John 2:29:01.040 --> 2:29:06.000 Lennon Years a lot. She wrote that one book, Loving 2:29:06.120 --> 2:29:08.040 John or something like that, and started going out on 2:29:08.680 --> 2:29:11.800 a book. You when you promote a book, you know, 2:29:11.879 --> 2:29:15.080 going to different towns, and all that, and I felt like, 2:29:15.200 --> 2:29:18.199 at one point, I said, we had John Lennon's photos 2:29:18.240 --> 2:29:21.480 all over the wall. She said, one by one, I 2:29:21.600 --> 2:29:23.320 come home from work and there'd be another photo of 2:29:23.400 --> 2:29:25.120 John Lennon on the wall, or a photo of her 2:29:25.240 --> 2:29:28.080 and John Lennon on the wall. And I said, may 2:29:28.240 --> 2:29:30.400 you know this is a little bit ridiculous. I feel 2:29:30.480 --> 2:29:33.520 like there three of us in bed. And she goes, 2:29:34.000 --> 2:29:36.560 she said, well, you should have known this when you 2:29:36.640 --> 2:29:38.240 took it on, when you married me, you should have 2:29:38.320 --> 2:29:40.880 known this would happen. I go, no, I thought you 2:29:41.040 --> 2:29:45.800 married me, you know, and then we split, you know, 2:29:45.879 --> 2:29:47.680 I lived, We lived apart for a while and we 2:29:47.800 --> 2:29:50.240 never got back together again, and finally got divorced. 2:29:50.640 --> 2:29:52.560 So how many kids do you have and what are 2:29:52.600 --> 2:29:53.000 they up to? 2:29:53.560 --> 2:29:56.440 Oh? I've got great kids. My two oldest kids are 2:29:56.520 --> 2:30:00.760 from Mary Hopkin. My son, Morgan is Morgan Visconty. He's 2:30:00.760 --> 2:30:04.160 a film composer and he owns this company I'm sitting 2:30:04.200 --> 2:30:06.840 in right now. This is a whole bunch of recording 2:30:06.920 --> 2:30:10.800 studios where the people write jingles and film scores. And 2:30:11.440 --> 2:30:15.600 Morgan doesn't come in anymore. He's kind of semi retired 2:30:16.000 --> 2:30:19.160 at fifty one years old, but he likes to keep 2:30:19.200 --> 2:30:23.160 his hand in and write film scores. My oldest daughter, 2:30:23.280 --> 2:30:28.120 Jessica is living near Mary in England and she and 2:30:28.280 --> 2:30:31.560 Mary just made a duets album. They sound like sisters. 2:30:31.640 --> 2:30:35.080 They have the identical voice. My daughter has a voice 2:30:35.120 --> 2:30:39.119 from heaven just like Mary has. And she does gigs 2:30:39.320 --> 2:30:41.880 got She and her man who plays bass, they go 2:30:41.959 --> 2:30:46.240 out and do regular gigs all over England and they 2:30:46.280 --> 2:30:50.080 write songs, they release records. So that's side of the 2:30:50.160 --> 2:30:55.920 family is very musical. Now I'll move on to May. 2:30:56.879 --> 2:31:00.760 My two children with May are gifted as graphic artists. 2:31:02.160 --> 2:31:06.400 My daughter Lara is the youngest child. She's about thirty 2:31:06.879 --> 2:31:10.440 two or thirty three now, and I should know her 2:31:10.520 --> 2:31:14.440 rage really, but she does graphic work for many, many 2:31:14.480 --> 2:31:19.000 different companies, from designing their websites to actually if they 2:31:19.080 --> 2:31:22.920 have a new brand of talcum powder, she'll design the 2:31:23.000 --> 2:31:25.640 box and all the artwork that goes in. You know, 2:31:25.720 --> 2:31:28.160 this is a big job, you know, to make an 2:31:28.400 --> 2:31:31.480 iconic thing that'll catch the eye in a shop that'll sell. 2:31:31.600 --> 2:31:35.359 So she loves graphic art. And then my son Sebastian 2:31:35.520 --> 2:31:39.360 does his. He's got like the only one who does 2:31:39.600 --> 2:31:43.279 a normal nine to five job, but he does also 2:31:44.200 --> 2:31:48.400 he's into maga manga the Japanese are from and he 2:31:48.480 --> 2:31:50.840 does little comic books like that for his friends and 2:31:51.440 --> 2:31:54.800 sells them and stuff like that. But they're all autistic kids, 2:31:56.480 --> 2:31:58.080 and I love them all. I'm in touch with all 2:31:58.120 --> 2:31:58.360 of them. 2:31:59.440 --> 2:32:03.720 Okay, you started in Brooklyn, you ended up in London. 2:32:04.760 --> 2:32:06.680 Why are you in Manhattan now? 2:32:10.160 --> 2:32:15.760 Good question. In eighty nine, there was a huge recession worldwide, 2:32:15.840 --> 2:32:19.120 but it was very, very bad in the UK, and 2:32:20.400 --> 2:32:23.560 the studios were dropping like flies. And I had a 2:32:23.640 --> 2:32:27.760 really big studio. I had a responsible business that I 2:32:27.879 --> 2:32:33.320 was running, and I was in a neighborhood that had 2:32:33.360 --> 2:32:36.320 about maybe eight or nine recording studios and I saw 2:32:36.400 --> 2:32:39.199 them one by one. They were just closing shop forever. 2:32:39.280 --> 2:32:42.640 They just couldn't get any any clients. And then there 2:32:42.680 --> 2:32:45.040 was a guy called doctor Death who came around to 2:32:45.200 --> 2:32:48.160 my studio tried to get me to close my studio 2:32:48.200 --> 2:32:51.280 because he he did close the others. And he says, well, 2:32:51.480 --> 2:32:54.120 how about sell me some of your gear instead? You know, 2:32:54.360 --> 2:32:56.640 maybe do you need all your gear? I can, I'll 2:32:56.680 --> 2:32:59.640 take your microphones from you and things like that. And 2:32:59.720 --> 2:33:02.400 I told him to get lost. But the writing was 2:33:02.480 --> 2:33:06.880 on the wall. I knew that I had about bookings 2:33:06.920 --> 2:33:09.760 for the next two months. Besides myself, I would use 2:33:09.800 --> 2:33:13.119 it for my own productions, but I didn't work world, 2:33:13.360 --> 2:33:16.080 I didn't produce all the time, so I had other 2:33:16.120 --> 2:33:18.720 people come in and use a studio. Quite a few 2:33:18.800 --> 2:33:20.920 hit records. We made this in Lizzie and people like that. 2:33:21.800 --> 2:33:24.880 And I found a buyer who wanted to buy the 2:33:24.920 --> 2:33:28.400 whole studio, lock stock and barrel. He was a jingle guy, 2:33:28.800 --> 2:33:32.360 jingle house guy, and they called it Joe and Co. 2:33:33.160 --> 2:33:36.480 I just learned yesterday that Joe passed away. But they 2:33:36.560 --> 2:33:39.119 bought the studio for me and they turned it into 2:33:39.200 --> 2:33:41.880 the one of the biggest jingle houses in London. In fact, 2:33:41.920 --> 2:33:45.280 it was the big biggest jingle house in London. And 2:33:45.680 --> 2:33:49.200 even my son Morgan started working with them first and 2:33:49.320 --> 2:33:52.200 he got into the rhythm of writing jingles and what 2:33:52.360 --> 2:33:55.680 it takes to do that. But the studio still lives today. 2:33:55.760 --> 2:34:01.480 The studio that was came perilously close to closing. It's 2:34:01.560 --> 2:34:06.560 now owned by the Alvin Lee family. Alvin Lee blues guitarist, 2:34:07.320 --> 2:34:10.640 his daughter, his daughter and his wife owned the studio 2:34:10.760 --> 2:34:12.680 now and they run it like a really good business, 2:34:13.120 --> 2:34:15.840 and I'm entitled to use it anytime I want. Anytime 2:34:15.879 --> 2:34:17.400 I go to London, I can go in that place 2:34:17.840 --> 2:34:19.640 and it's it's walking through my history. 2:34:19.720 --> 2:34:20.120 Believe it. 2:34:20.160 --> 2:34:23.800 When I walk down those steps, I'm like hearing hazy 2:34:23.879 --> 2:34:26.920 fantasy thin Lizzie, all the things I recorded, all the 2:34:26.959 --> 2:34:29.960 great records I made. And the name of the studio 2:34:30.040 --> 2:34:33.800 when you owned it, it was called good Earth. And 2:34:33.920 --> 2:34:37.120 you know, Good Earth is a pearless buck pearlss buck 2:34:37.200 --> 2:34:41.880 book about China. And ironically I lived my studio was 2:34:41.879 --> 2:34:44.720 a block away from Chinatown in London, so we got 2:34:44.720 --> 2:34:46.240 a lot of calls at one in the morning for 2:34:46.320 --> 2:34:50.879 people wanting a late Chinese meal. There was another Chinese restaurant. 2:34:51.440 --> 2:34:53.360 You know, there were's quite a few Good Earths in 2:34:53.400 --> 2:34:56.760 the world, restaurants that call themselves good Earth, the Good Earth. 2:34:57.560 --> 2:34:59.320 So how do you end up back in the US? 2:35:00.000 --> 2:35:02.480 Well that was because of the recession. I sold my 2:35:02.600 --> 2:35:05.400 studio and got out and I went back. I was 2:35:05.440 --> 2:35:09.240 with May then. She always was good with money, and 2:35:09.680 --> 2:35:12.000 she realized, she says, that's the best thing you could do, 2:35:12.560 --> 2:35:15.440 because you'll be broken six months. You're not going to 2:35:15.480 --> 2:35:18.080 get any more clients, that studio is going to shut down. 2:35:18.440 --> 2:35:20.520 But for a jingle house, it was perfect. He didn't 2:35:20.560 --> 2:35:24.039 rely on clients like musicians, you know, he just wanted 2:35:24.120 --> 2:35:28.920 people who wanted adverts made. And we got on a plane. 2:35:29.440 --> 2:35:33.240 I said goodbye to my house, my studio and moved 2:35:33.280 --> 2:35:36.800 to New York. At first in her place, she had 2:35:36.840 --> 2:35:41.320 a controlled rent place in Manhattan on eighty ninth Street 2:35:41.959 --> 2:35:45.800 between Third and Second Avenue, Manhattan, So we lived there 2:35:45.840 --> 2:35:48.800 for a while until children started to come from that marriage, 2:35:48.800 --> 2:35:51.600 and then we had to move to other places. But 2:35:51.959 --> 2:35:53.520 it was great. It was great to be back. I 2:35:53.600 --> 2:35:56.920 had to literally start all over again because most people 2:35:57.040 --> 2:36:00.720 didn't know who I was with whatever great reputation I 2:36:00.800 --> 2:36:05.039 had made in London and the rest of the world. 2:36:05.160 --> 2:36:09.280 Americans just you know, oh oh you did Bangagong that one, 2:36:09.480 --> 2:36:13.560 you know, that was it, you know, And so that's 2:36:13.600 --> 2:36:15.280 how I ended up back there, and you know, my 2:36:15.760 --> 2:36:19.920 career did pick up afterwards. I'm still making records all 2:36:19.959 --> 2:36:23.560 the time, working with some great people, discovering new artists. 2:36:24.200 --> 2:36:25.560 Did you know about my box set? 2:36:27.360 --> 2:36:30.760 Yes? I did. That's what inspired me to do this podcast. 2:36:31.000 --> 2:36:34.640 But you can do a little commercial, Oh well, I've 2:36:34.720 --> 2:36:39.160 got a box set of six vinyls or four CDs, 2:36:39.200 --> 2:36:41.960 whichever one's you want to buy. But I was approached 2:36:41.959 --> 2:36:45.240 by Demon Records about a year ago saying they would 2:36:45.320 --> 2:36:48.080 like to do this, and I had this idea about 2:36:48.120 --> 2:36:51.080 five or ten years ago. But the time is right now. 2:36:51.120 --> 2:36:55.360 It actually never came off before, but by now I'm 2:36:55.480 --> 2:36:59.920 seventy nine years old. I had to have a pretty 2:37:00.200 --> 2:37:04.040 dense history behind me. I've worked with I must have 2:37:04.120 --> 2:37:07.760 made about five hundred albums. I've must have produced over 2:37:07.840 --> 2:37:12.160 two thousand songs, individual songs, and now's the time. I'm 2:37:12.200 --> 2:37:17.359 really proud of this album. It's got some iconic records 2:37:17.400 --> 2:37:20.360 that Americans might not have heard. But I had a 2:37:20.480 --> 2:37:23.160 big spate of hits in the eighties in Britain with 2:37:23.280 --> 2:37:29.520 Adamant Altered Images, a lot of British and my studio 2:37:29.560 --> 2:37:33.280 we turned into a literally a hit factory. I was 2:37:33.320 --> 2:37:37.280 there every day, new group, every day, Dexi's Midnight Runners like. 2:37:37.400 --> 2:37:39.600 I did a lot of stuff in the eighties and 2:37:39.720 --> 2:37:43.560 that's well represented on this box set. And then someone 2:37:43.640 --> 2:37:46.320 pointed out to me, but you left this off, you 2:37:46.440 --> 2:37:48.720 left that off, you left that off, and one group 2:37:48.800 --> 2:37:53.160 I'm very proud of was Ossi Bisa. It's the first 2:37:53.680 --> 2:37:59.440 Anglo African group ever. It came from Kenya and we 2:37:59.600 --> 2:38:02.240 made the first two albums we made were massive hits 2:38:02.320 --> 2:38:05.000 for them in the UK and also in America. There's 2:38:05.080 --> 2:38:08.000 not one Osibisas song on this album. So now I 2:38:08.080 --> 2:38:09.800 have to go back to demon Now they don't know this, 2:38:09.920 --> 2:38:12.039 but I want to do a volume two and make 2:38:12.120 --> 2:38:14.480 sure you know. There's plenty of other records to get 2:38:14.520 --> 2:38:16.720 on there, but I want to make sure Osibisa gets 2:38:16.760 --> 2:38:18.960 on the next one because I'm very, very proud of 2:38:19.040 --> 2:38:22.280 that work. It was groundbreaking work. You never heard of 2:38:22.520 --> 2:38:26.360 an African rock band before until Osibisa. 2:38:27.040 --> 2:38:29.440 Well, they have the covers by Roger Dean, the same 2:38:29.480 --> 2:38:30.680 guy who did the Yes covers. 2:38:31.400 --> 2:38:35.720 Yeah, those are great, those covers. They are iconic covers. 2:38:37.040 --> 2:38:40.680 Okay, So you have this long history, but you have 2:38:40.800 --> 2:38:44.560 a similar perspective that I have, except even more information 2:38:44.760 --> 2:38:48.600 from the fifties and early sixties. You're excited about these 2:38:48.640 --> 2:38:52.760 women you met at Weeperbond, But are as you as 2:38:52.920 --> 2:38:56.320 excited about the music as ever? And what do you 2:38:56.440 --> 2:38:59.440 think about music and its power and influence and where 2:38:59.480 --> 2:39:00.320 it's going today? 2:39:02.560 --> 2:39:06.600 Well, Back in my day, music was a culture and 2:39:07.200 --> 2:39:10.320 record labels they couldn't wait to be invited to the 2:39:10.400 --> 2:39:13.879 recording session and sit in and watching a hit being made, 2:39:13.959 --> 2:39:17.040 watching an album being made. Even you know, even though 2:39:17.640 --> 2:39:21.520 money was to be made by these records, even the 2:39:21.640 --> 2:39:25.920 executives felt like they they would be attending ay a 2:39:26.040 --> 2:39:28.560 history making recording session. They used to come to the 2:39:28.640 --> 2:39:31.760 sessions and then when the record it came time to 2:39:31.840 --> 2:39:34.680 promote it, they would put a huge budget in the promotion. 2:39:34.920 --> 2:39:38.039 And that's just the way things were in those days. 2:39:39.600 --> 2:39:42.520 And the freakier album you can make, the better. The 2:39:42.600 --> 2:39:45.920 freaky of the album was, the better. They wanted new sounds, 2:39:46.080 --> 2:39:49.600 different things. Bowie could be as radical as he could, 2:39:49.840 --> 2:39:53.360 and you know, Mark Bowling could do say outrageous things 2:39:53.400 --> 2:39:56.120 in the press. They loved all that stuff because it 2:39:56.320 --> 2:40:01.360 was a culture move. Speed up these days. The difference 2:40:01.360 --> 2:40:04.640 between these days is the bottom line is money right now, 2:40:04.959 --> 2:40:09.360 it's really money, money, money, and they have to make 2:40:09.640 --> 2:40:12.840 a sound alike records to get that money. So the 2:40:13.080 --> 2:40:17.440 hire producers very very clever young people who work from 2:40:17.560 --> 2:40:21.920 laptops mainly. And everything's in the everything's in the box now, 2:40:22.000 --> 2:40:26.280 like you would probably The only human being on today's 2:40:26.320 --> 2:40:30.560 records might be just the singer. Everything else is programmed, 2:40:30.640 --> 2:40:33.720 you know, a fake guitar, a fake bass, fake drums, 2:40:34.360 --> 2:40:38.400 a swirling synthesizer sounds, and a chorus that goes on 2:40:39.160 --> 2:40:45.039 forever until you're sick of it. You know, Oh my god, 2:40:45.120 --> 2:40:45.720 what can I say? 2:40:45.879 --> 2:40:45.920 So? 2:40:46.080 --> 2:40:49.200 I mean, I kind of within this climate, I still 2:40:49.240 --> 2:40:51.280 have people who want to work with me. I wish 2:40:51.360 --> 2:40:53.920 I could tell you the name of this famous jazz 2:40:54.000 --> 2:40:57.320 pianist player that I'm making a record with. She swore 2:40:57.440 --> 2:41:01.040 me to secrecy, but I just gave away thee to you. 2:41:01.200 --> 2:41:05.440 But I'm making a fantastic record with this person. And 2:41:06.240 --> 2:41:09.039 there's still that market. There's people who love great music, 2:41:09.520 --> 2:41:12.560 and people who are true artists are still being supported 2:41:12.600 --> 2:41:15.320 by their fans and by labels too, because you know, 2:41:15.400 --> 2:41:17.560 a great artist can sell a lot of records. It 2:41:17.640 --> 2:41:20.480 doesn't have to be a Beyonce kind of record or 2:41:20.600 --> 2:41:22.920 a Taylor Swift kind of record. It could be a 2:41:23.040 --> 2:41:27.320 record of extreme autistic merit and it could sell. And 2:41:27.440 --> 2:41:30.160 I'm that kind of a producer. I'm this is my 2:41:30.360 --> 2:41:33.800 sixth decade and I learned a lot of shit in 2:41:33.879 --> 2:41:39.080 my life By six decade, I could still pull rabbits 2:41:39.080 --> 2:41:40.080 out of the hat for people. 2:41:42.800 --> 2:41:45.120 This has been utterly fantastic. I could talk to you 2:41:45.240 --> 2:41:46.360 for another three hours. 2:41:46.560 --> 2:41:46.760 I know. 2:41:48.000 --> 2:41:51.440 I can see why you're successful. You're a very charming guy, 2:41:51.720 --> 2:41:54.320 very friendly. It's funny you just see a name on 2:41:54.440 --> 2:41:57.400 a record cover, you have no idea who the person is. 2:41:58.240 --> 2:42:04.240 And you're great rock and tour. Really, you're just fucking great, Tony. 2:42:04.320 --> 2:42:06.640 I mean, I'm not blowing smoke up your ass because 2:42:06.640 --> 2:42:08.840 you never really know. And I said, you know, like 2:42:08.920 --> 2:42:12.120 after like five bits ago, this guy is great. It's like, 2:42:12.280 --> 2:42:14.680 well it stay this good, and it did. So I 2:42:14.800 --> 2:42:16.720 want to thank you for taking the time to talk 2:42:16.760 --> 2:42:17.520 to my audience. 2:42:18.120 --> 2:42:19.880 Well, if you're a sweetheart, I love you. 2:42:21.600 --> 2:42:25.080 It's all true. That's one reputation I have. I speak 2:42:25.120 --> 2:42:25.600 by truth. 2:42:26.000 --> 2:42:28.280 They said, be careful what you tell him. He's going 2:42:28.360 --> 2:42:30.120 to ask you these questions. I said, well, I've got 2:42:30.200 --> 2:42:30.840 nothing to hide. 2:42:31.600 --> 2:42:35.080 You know this is you know, Mike, the whole thing 2:42:35.160 --> 2:42:37.320 with this is not gotcha anyway, not that I would 2:42:37.480 --> 2:42:39.760 I would even know what gotcha to ask you? As 2:42:39.800 --> 2:42:42.400 you say, you have nothing to hide, but you know 2:42:42.560 --> 2:42:46.320 you were there and you've told some of those stories 2:42:46.360 --> 2:42:49.320 that people don't know. Not to mention your history. 2:42:49.800 --> 2:42:50.640 People need to know. 2:42:51.160 --> 2:42:53.960 I mean, I can see why you connect with BOYD. 2:42:53.959 --> 2:42:55.959 People want to work with You're a good guy, good hang, 2:42:56.280 --> 2:42:59.040 irrelevant of your talent. Yeah, that guy is fun to 2:42:59.120 --> 2:43:02.400 have around. And he's not like a Sicka fan either. 2:43:02.640 --> 2:43:04.880 I always love your podcast. I listened to you you bought. 2:43:04.959 --> 2:43:08.640 Podcasts are great. You know they're so different from others. 2:43:08.800 --> 2:43:11.520 You know that you don't have one. You're the only 2:43:11.640 --> 2:43:15.240 string running through everything you know, and you do great interviews. Bob, 2:43:15.400 --> 2:43:15.920 I'm a fan. 2:43:16.760 --> 2:43:21.600 I appreciate it. I'll just leave it at that, So Tony, 2:43:21.879 --> 2:43:25.600 I want to thank you again. Till next time. This 2:43:25.800 --> 2:43:26.920 is Bob left Sets