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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob West's podcast. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is the one and only Tony Visconti, record

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Speaker 1: producer extraordinary. So Tony, how do you produce a record?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm the guy in charge of everything. I found

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Speaker 2: that out very early on. If anything goes rom I'm

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Speaker 2: to blame. So I have to do a lot of

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Speaker 2: planning before the group and myself actually sets foot in

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Speaker 2: the studio, which would require pre production, which means you

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Speaker 2: visit the band in their favorite space and you rehearse

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Speaker 2: the songs and learn the songs. And then when I

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Speaker 2: get into the studio, I have to be both a

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Speaker 2: technician and a creative director. I think I qualify for

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Speaker 2: the latter because I studied music I was like fifteen

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Speaker 2: years old, and I play several instruments. I write orchestrations,

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Speaker 2: and I understand how harmony and theory works. And I

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Speaker 2: also understand rock and roll people too, because I'm one myself.

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Speaker 2: I guess.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So generally speaking, do people find you or are

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Speaker 1: you looking for opportunities?

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Speaker 2: It comes from all different directions. I have a really

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Speaker 2: good manager who finds people for me and people contact him,

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Speaker 2: but just recently, I was in Hamburg, Germany for the

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Speaker 2: Ripabond Festival. It's like south By Southwest over there, and

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Speaker 2: I saw a group called Daisy the Great two front

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Speaker 2: female singers, and I thought they were fantastic. They played

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Speaker 2: in the RIPA band and I found that they were

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Speaker 2: from New York. They live in Brooklyn, So just yesterday

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Speaker 2: I made my first record with them. So that was

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Speaker 2: a direct face used to face contact with a group.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know, the world is totally different from when

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Speaker 1: you began your career. So if you're dealing with these

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Speaker 1: two women, A do they have a record company?

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Speaker 2: You know, they have an indie label, which could mean anything.

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Speaker 2: It's you know, I don't know what capital that label

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Speaker 2: has or anything, but I'm always attracted to the music.

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Speaker 2: It's that's where Mahart is. I love these girls. The

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Speaker 2: music really got to me when I was in Hamburg

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Speaker 2: and we had a writing session that started two days ago.

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Speaker 2: The one of the girls came in with her guitar

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Speaker 2: and just played about three chords and within an hour

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Speaker 2: we had the structure of a song, the melodic and

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Speaker 2: chord structure of a song, and then we chipped away

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Speaker 2: at it for the past two days, so now I've

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Speaker 2: actually recorded an entire song with them. It's just amazing

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Speaker 2: how it works.

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Speaker 1: So in this today's world, you can record the equipment

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Speaker 1: just to get basics down is much cheaper ie digital computer,

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Speaker 1: but it still requires a certain amount of money. So

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Speaker 1: in the old days you might have hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 1: of dollars to make a record, whereas today frequently, even

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Speaker 1: with acts that are well known, the budget's constricted relatively low.

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Speaker 1: So an act like this, how much is the budget

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Speaker 1: and how do you make it work?

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Speaker 2: I would say, if I was going to make an

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Speaker 2: album with them, we have some nice studios in Brooklyn

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Speaker 2: and Manhattan where I live, where you can get them

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Speaker 2: for about five hundred dollars a day. And I would

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Speaker 2: only need, say, two weeks in a proper studio like that,

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Speaker 2: just to record the drums. In my little place I've

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Speaker 2: got here, I'm sitting in the twentieth Street in Manhattan.

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Speaker 2: I could record vocals, guitars, saxophones, bass guitars, but not drums.

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Speaker 2: It's just no space that big. So it really I

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Speaker 2: make these albums more economical by having my own facility.

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Speaker 2: So what do we say, like twenty grand at the minimum,

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Speaker 2: I would say that, Yeah, okay, So you know you

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Speaker 2: talk about getting drums right, and certainly in the pre

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Speaker 2: internet era that was a big thing. In the big

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Speaker 2: studio could certainly take days just to get the sound right.

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Speaker 2: Many people today listen via earbuds. The goal in the

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Speaker 2: seventies was to have the biggest stereo you could possibly

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Speaker 2: have to get closer to the music, and now it's

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Speaker 2: kind of the opposite. So how do you feel about

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Speaker 2: this making records? Well, you know, I've got the Apple

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Speaker 2: EarPods and they sound really great. They have the high

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Speaker 2: end ones. You could hear a lot of low end

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Speaker 2: on it. You could hear the width of a big

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Speaker 2: stereo production. But you know a lot of kids can

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Speaker 2: only afford like cheap and nasty things with on them. Still,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're not Bluetooth, so I have to listen

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Speaker 2: to what I do on everything. I've got these big

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Speaker 2: expensive speakers in my studio. I've got smaller ones at home,

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Speaker 2: and I've got to hear the Apple buds and somewhere

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Speaker 2: you can make a mix that's going to sound great

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Speaker 2: on everything. In fact, that's the wholemark of a good mix.

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Speaker 2: It should sound great on everything. It might not sound

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Speaker 2: the same, but it has to sound great.

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Speaker 1: What are the speakers you listen to? What are the

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Speaker 1: brand names? I have.

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Speaker 2: A pair of genial X. I don't know. I think

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Speaker 2: they I think they're German or Swiss or something like that.

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Speaker 1: Actually they're Finish. I have upset myself.

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Speaker 2: There go finish right. And I've got a pair of

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Speaker 2: a bigger pair of Monetors from Barefoot. It's a company

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Speaker 2: that I think is in Washington State and they make phenomenal,

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Speaker 2: phenomenal speakers. That's what I listen to mainly.

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Speaker 1: And in terms of recording equipment, in terms of a board,

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Speaker 1: pro tools, how do you do it?

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Speaker 2: I'm in pro tools almost exclusively. I have no board anymore.

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Speaker 2: There's no need for it because I don't record drums.

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Speaker 2: But I've got preamplifiers for and I've got an amazing

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Speaker 2: set of microphones and so one two three phone. I

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Speaker 2: have about ten preamps, which means I could record up

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Speaker 2: to about one of them's got four inputs, so about

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Speaker 2: fourteen microphones at the same time. But there's no need

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Speaker 2: for a board anymore, not for my purposes since for.

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Speaker 1: This deep how big is your monitor and how many monitors?

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Speaker 2: How big is my Oh? What I'm looking at you

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Speaker 2: on now?

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Speaker 1: No, I'm talking about when you're recording, you get your

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Speaker 1: pro tools rig it's on a computer, but you're watching

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Speaker 1: a screen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm watching a screen.

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Speaker 1: And is it one screen? Is it twenty inches thirty inches?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: No, I've got two twenty six inch screens and I

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Speaker 2: stacked them one above the other really, yes, side by side,

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Speaker 2: because it gives me more room for my speakers. And

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Speaker 2: you know a lot of studios have their screens off

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Speaker 2: to the right, and that means you spend half the

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Speaker 2: session listening in your left ear. It's a ridiculous setup.

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Speaker 2: So I put my screens on top of each other.

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Speaker 2: They don't take up much space, and I have my

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Speaker 2: when i'm mixing. When I'm working, I'm always in between

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Speaker 2: the two speakers, always at all times.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Now, you know, once the union era ended in

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Speaker 1: the sixties, there were record producers and engineers. Everybody was

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Speaker 1: independent except for a few people like a Warner Brothers.

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Speaker 1: Then we hit an era where the engineers became producer. Personally,

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Speaker 1: I found a lot of those people, although they had success,

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Speaker 1: we're not as musically evolved or trained like you. So

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Speaker 1: do you do the engineering yourself? Do have preferred engineer?

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Speaker 1: How does it work?

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Speaker 2: When I record drums and perhaps a live band. I

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Speaker 2: do occasionally record a whole band in the studio, just

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Speaker 2: like the good old days, I need an engineer. I can't.

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Speaker 2: I have to concentrate on the music. I just can't

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Speaker 2: twiddle the knobs during those serious moments, you know, when

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Speaker 2: you're trying to get the best out of a band.

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Speaker 2: So then I'm a director in the studio, a big studio,

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Speaker 2: I'm a director. But when I come back to my studio,

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Speaker 2: I don't use an engineer. I do all my recording myself.

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Speaker 2: I'm always on one microphone, you know, with a singer

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Speaker 2: or maybe a stereo output from a keyboard. It's easily

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Speaker 2: manageable to do that and to give direction at the

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Speaker 2: same time, So I don't. I don't need an engineer

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Speaker 2: when I'm mixing, and I mix how they say inside

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Speaker 2: the box. In the box, explain to my audience what

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Speaker 2: that means. The means I do all the mixing in

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Speaker 2: the computer itself. It never leaves the computer. However, I

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Speaker 2: do have sixteen analog outputs to do that. If I

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Speaker 2: want to, if the project wants a more analog sound

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Speaker 2: which kind of has all the little bit of bits

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Speaker 2: of distortion and you know, overblown base, I could come

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Speaker 2: through sixteen channels of this thing called dangerous audio two bus.

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Speaker 2: It is a it's a real magic trick for anybody

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Speaker 2: who works inside the box, which is the computer, but

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Speaker 2: takes it out of the box just to get an

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Speaker 2: analog flavor and then it gets recorded back into the

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Speaker 2: box again. The nice thing about digital, I mean, people

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Speaker 2: say it's cold and all that, but digital is really true.

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Speaker 2: What you put in comes out, it's not It doesn't

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Speaker 2: color it in any way. So that's why we are

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Speaker 2: now after we ask for this kind of magical recording

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Speaker 2: all these years, now we'll finding we need all these

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Speaker 2: techniques to mess it up again, to make it sound

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Speaker 2: saturated and you know, blown out tape and all that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So the old days of the analogy hat all

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Speaker 1: this outboard gear. So you have digital replications in the

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Speaker 1: box of those sounds and effects you might want to use.

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Speaker 2: Sure, I've got I've got some effects in analog gear still.

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Speaker 2: And next door a friend of mine has this retro

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Speaker 2: tape machine that we can I could use at anytime

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Speaker 2: to get that real bad repeat echo, that slapback echo.

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Speaker 2: But in pro tools, there are a lot of virtual

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Speaker 2: apps that replicate the sound of a tape recorder or

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Speaker 2: any kind of reverb. I've got a reverb that emulates

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Speaker 2: Hansa Studios in Germany because I did my Bowie recordings

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Speaker 2: there and I I sent a team over there to

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Speaker 2: capture the reflections, make note of the wood panels. And

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Speaker 2: it's called t verb. So for all you recording enthusiasts

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Speaker 2: made by the company called Eventide and Teaset TV verb,

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Speaker 2: you know they named it. I didn't name it, but

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Speaker 2: it's called t verb in honor of me. And you

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Speaker 2: can get that Bowie's hero vocal sound with this app easily.

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Speaker 2: It's very easy to do.

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Speaker 1: Okay, a little bit slower. You sent your team over there,

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Speaker 1: then you made a deal with Eventide.

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Speaker 2: Well, my team was even Tide. We worked together. I

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Speaker 2: did a lot. I do a lot of things for them,

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Speaker 2: and they do a lot of things for me. I've

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Speaker 2: got all their new equipment, their old equipment. We're good friends.

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Speaker 2: And I grew up ten blocks away from the guy

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Speaker 2: who owns even Tide. Now Tony Aiello. We're both both

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Speaker 2: Brooklyn boys.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we live in an era of vinyl fetishism.

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Speaker 1: From my viewpoint, I'm eating up mature. It's one thing

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Speaker 1: if it's recorded analog, it makes no sense to me

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Speaker 1: to record at such a high res and pro tools

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Speaker 1: get it down to analog. You have all the issues

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Speaker 1: that we're aware of. What is the tracking angle, the

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Speaker 1: inside groove, the outside groove, all these other things. What's

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Speaker 1: your take on today's vinyl mania.

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Speaker 2: I'm very pleased with the way vinyl sounds now. Because

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Speaker 2: we could record, we could make vinyls louder than they

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Speaker 2: ever were, which was always a problem, especially with lengthy

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Speaker 2: sides like in the prog rock days. Groups you used

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Speaker 2: to like to make forty even fifty minute albums, which

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Speaker 2: you get, that's the law of diminishing returns. You only

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Speaker 2: have so many grooves from the label to the you know,

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Speaker 2: beginning of the record. So now, because of computer technology,

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Speaker 2: even the cutting lathes are working at speeds that a

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Speaker 2: human brain can't work at. Because in the old days,

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Speaker 2: when you wanted to widen the groove, you had a

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Speaker 2: little wheel and the engineer did it by hand to

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Speaker 2: open up the groove for a very loud passage, and

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Speaker 2: when it's quiet, he would close the groove by hand.

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Speaker 2: And now the computer does this about ten times quicker,

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Speaker 2: therefore optimizing the space between the beginning of a vinyl

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Speaker 2: and the end of a vinyl. So this is a

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Speaker 2: good thing that's happened. I like new vinyls. They sound

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Speaker 2: better than ever.

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Speaker 1: Let's say you cut something what at won ninety two

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Speaker 1: in pro tools, and then it is ultimately rendered to vinyl.

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Speaker 1: And let's see you're listening to the one ninety two version.

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Speaker 1: You haven't scaled it down. Are they just different listening

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Speaker 1: experiences or do you feel that one is superior?

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Speaker 2: They should be the same. One ninety two has got

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Speaker 2: so many bits in it that it's it's almost a

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Speaker 2: smooth curved analog sound, you know. And if you look

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Speaker 2: at these on an acilloscope you could see digital is.

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Speaker 2: It looks like steps in a Mario game, you know,

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Speaker 2: a Nintendo game. It looks like steps that you would climb.

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Speaker 2: Whereas a pure analog single is a curve, it's very smooth.

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Speaker 2: So one ninety two is got so many bits jammed

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Speaker 2: into per second that it resembles a curve, very closely,

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Speaker 2: so if you transfer one ninety two to vinyl, it'll

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Speaker 2: probably be the same. But vinyl has the one artifact

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Speaker 2: that it's a medium. It's got that plastic sound that

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Speaker 2: you're not very aware of all the time. But analog

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Speaker 2: sounds warm because of the vinyl itself. That's one of

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Speaker 2: the reasons vinyl has a warm, kind of loose kind

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Speaker 2: of sound to it. But if you listen to the

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Speaker 2: one nine two, it would sound incredible. I think from

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Speaker 2: forty eight Killer Hurts Up A mix sounds pretty good

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Speaker 2: if you're doing all the right things, if you're recording

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Speaker 2: fat you know, nice pre am and nice bass sounds

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Speaker 2: and all that. From forty a K, which is I

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Speaker 2: think uh DVDs of forty AK it sounds good. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't sound horrible. You know, who's got who's got these

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Speaker 2: big like you said, Bob, who's got these big speakers

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Speaker 2: in the living room anymore? Who gets a shit? Really? Yeah? Well,

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Speaker 2: even the older people are listening on on headphones and

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Speaker 2: in near earbods, EarPods.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you know there's so many takes out there.

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Speaker 1: There are some engineers who say the sound you like

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Speaker 1: from vinyl is actually distortion you're talking about the plastic itself.

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Speaker 1: Can you go a little deeper there?

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Speaker 2: The plastic itself adds the distortion. Uh, it's a physical process.

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Speaker 2: It it's it's gonna you're hearing something from outside the music.

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Speaker 2: It's the physical world, the groove and the vinyl. It's

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Speaker 2: a medium. Like if you just, you know, scratched a

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Speaker 2: chalk on a blackboard. It's a medium. You'll hear that

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Speaker 2: surface noise. That's what the word I'm looking for, which

264
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Speaker 2: everyone really talks about when they analyze a vinyl recording,

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Speaker 2: how much surface noise is there compared to how much

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Speaker 2: musical content is there. So that's the problem we have

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Speaker 2: with vinyl. And if you keep your sides short, you

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Speaker 2: will never hear surface noise. I recommend no more than

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Speaker 2: eighteen minutes per side, because beyond that you will be

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Speaker 2: losing a dB for every minute. That's actually a ratio,

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Speaker 2: it's a law in vinyl cutting.

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Speaker 1: So if we were at your house and it was

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Speaker 1: equally EASi or difficult, and I say I'm going to

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Speaker 1: play it on either vinyl or play it at one

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Speaker 1: ninety two, which would you prefer.

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Speaker 2: With absolutely no coloration, you would prefer the one ninety

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Speaker 2: two with the digital surface noise, et cetera. It still

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Speaker 2: sounds great. It's just slight. It will sound slightly different,

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Speaker 2: and maybe only I would Maybe if you gave me

280
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Speaker 2: a blind fall test, I couldn't tell the difference, except

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Speaker 2: I would. Maybe somebody putting the toe arm down on

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Speaker 2: the record might give it away. But I you know,

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Speaker 2: a well cut final that has an eighteen minute maximum

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Speaker 2: side and a one ninety two file, it's going to

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Speaker 2: sound pretty close to each other.

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Speaker 1: So have you always been a technology geek? Oh?

287
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Speaker 2: Yeah, from the good old days when I was a kid,

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Speaker 2: I used to take radios apart. And I had a

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Speaker 2: little radio once and it was like I took it

290
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Speaker 2: out of my mom's kitchen. But I bought a ten

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Speaker 2: inch speaker from Lafayette Street. Oh wow, Canal Street, Canal.

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Speaker 1: I thought you talking about the company Lafayette, which was

293
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Speaker 1: the whole thing long time ago.

294
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Speaker 2: It's actually Canal and Lafayette when there was all these

295
00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:00,000
Speaker 2: geeky electronic parts places. And I bought a ten inch speaker,

296
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Speaker 2: and I wanted to hook up my very naively, I

297
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,280
Speaker 2: wanted to hook up my mother's AM radio to those

298
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Speaker 2: ten inge speakers and I made a little box for

299
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:10,400
Speaker 2: it to put the speaker in. That was my first

300
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Speaker 2: speaker I ever built. And I was about fourteen years old.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is the dark, agers, there's no internet. How

302
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Speaker 1: did you know how to do this?

303
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Speaker 2: I had a good friend who went to Brooklyn Tech

304
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Speaker 2: High School. He was my best friend. He lived around

305
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,240
Speaker 2: the corner for me in bay Ridge, Brooklyn, and he

306
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,959
Speaker 2: could do He was good with the soldering iron and

307
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,080
Speaker 2: taught me how to do that. But what we actually

308
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,480
Speaker 2: did this. He said, you know, there's not much power

309
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,200
Speaker 2: in your mother's radio to power this tenange speaker. So

310
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Speaker 2: he built a little transistor circuit. At the time, they

311
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,359
Speaker 2: just came out, and he built a little amplifier that

312
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,919
Speaker 2: he put inside and it worked that. Actually, I was

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Speaker 2: in my room. I used to listen to the Alan

314
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Speaker 2: Freed Show, the Jocko Show on radio and all that,

315
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Speaker 2: and I could really crank that ten inch speaker. Because

316
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:04,399
Speaker 2: of Bruce's intovention, my mom, My mom flipped out. She says,

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Speaker 2: you broke my radio, you know, and in those days

318
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Speaker 2: a home only owned one radio. My home did anyway,

319
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Speaker 2: you know. But she was okay, she was happy I

320
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,159
Speaker 2: went into this career. So you know, I was okay

321
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Speaker 2: after that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know computers. The Apple Tube comes out at

323
00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:25,480
Speaker 1: the end of the seventies, the Mac comes out in

324
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,680
Speaker 1: the mid eighties, the Internet hits in the nineties. Were

325
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,600
Speaker 1: you an early adopter? Where did you come into the

326
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Speaker 1: computer world.

327
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Speaker 2: It's a good question. I got a what you call

328
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,359
Speaker 2: a desktop in the seventies. You know, it looks like

329
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 2: a big cheese grater there the first when they first

330
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,920
Speaker 2: one they brought out, and I wasn't on a laptop.

331
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 2: I was using this and I had a monitor which

332
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,639
Speaker 2: was extremely expensive in lo fi, and you know, a

333
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 2: visual monitored. And a friend came around and I had

334
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,640
Speaker 2: a rack full of gear from playing live and all that,

335
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 2: and that's when I began. It was a lot of fun.

336
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,920
Speaker 2: I don't think I started on pro Tools. They they

337
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 2: had only a four track thing called digit Design or

338
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,440
Speaker 2: something like that. They weren't they weren't pro Tools yet.

339
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,480
Speaker 2: And then there was this German company who made Logic.

340
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,200
Speaker 2: So Logic was the game changer from uh they went

341
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,720
Speaker 2: a track when pro Tools were still four track. So

342
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,119
Speaker 2: I switched over to the Logic brand and I started

343
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,920
Speaker 2: to make really good, good recordings at home and what

344
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,320
Speaker 2: I ended up doing was because I didn't have an

345
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,080
Speaker 2: analog tape machine. I would do a lot of tricky stuff,

346
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:47,160
Speaker 2: a lot of editing the in the UH in pro

347
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,919
Speaker 2: tools or logic, and then I would there were some

348
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 2: studios that already had it too. I would bring my

349
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 2: files there and we'd lock them up with the twenty

350
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,160
Speaker 2: four track tape or the sixteen track tape that we had,

351
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,360
Speaker 2: so I could do a lot of work at home,

352
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,679
Speaker 2: which was inexpensive on editing, and then go with the

353
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 2: edited files back and put it on the the tape

354
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,359
Speaker 2: that had the analog drums recorded on it and all that.

355
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,440
Speaker 2: So I did this really quite early in the game seventies.

356
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 2: I can't remember what year, but probably seventy nine around then,

357
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 2: seventy nine to eighty.

358
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Speaker 1: Okay, you have this external piece of equipment. Needless to say,

359
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 1: almost no one cuts on analog tape anymore, for no

360
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,680
Speaker 1: other reason. You can't really even get it. Yeah, if

361
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 1: you use your system, will it sound to a train deer?

362
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,159
Speaker 1: Will it sound just like tape?

363
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 2: Pretty much? So I have had so many people tell

364
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 2: me that you're an analog guy. I can hear it,

365
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,159
Speaker 2: you know, And I'm mixing in the box, you know.

366
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,920
Speaker 2: So that's that's good. It's a good thing that I could.

367
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,159
Speaker 2: I could capture that sound again by the way I do.

368
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,120
Speaker 2: When I have these clients who can afford it, we

369
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 2: do use twenty four and forty eight track. Going back

370
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 2: to to an analog studio. There are plenty of them

371
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: still in use, but the clients have to be quite

372
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 2: wealthy to use it. And at the end of maybe

373
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 2: two weeks of recording drums, et cetera and things like that,

374
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 2: then we'll have the engineer put everything into pro tools.

375
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,639
Speaker 2: But we could work for an analog for like the

376
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,920
Speaker 2: two weeks time, and then once it's in pro tools,

377
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 2: then I could do what I normally do.

378
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,400
Speaker 1: Okay, in the old days, if you were a big act,

379
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 1: you'd go through rezillion reels of tape, just if you

380
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: go into a studio when you're recording on a studo

381
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 1: or something. Since tape is expensive in not in volume,

382
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,199
Speaker 1: just use the tapes over and over again, or do

383
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 1: you do at old school record it.

384
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 2: Once we shelve it, you could use it over and

385
00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 2: over again. Tape has quite a long life. There's only

386
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 2: one brand now anyway, and thank god it's good, doesn't

387
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 2: shed as much. It used to be sickening to play

388
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 2: a tape all day long. And then you go and

389
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 2: take the tape off the machine and you see this

390
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 2: little mountain of oxide that was shedded from the tape

391
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 2: going past the heads for hours and hours on end.

392
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 2: And then you can actually sometimes hold the tape up

393
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 2: to a light and you could see through the tape.

394
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 2: It's a horrible medium, it really, it's archaic, But what

395
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 2: studios do nowadays, this is a really nice trick. And

396
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 2: you could do it with a machine called Stuoter. Because

397
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 2: it's got three heads instead of the traditional two heads.

398
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 2: You can actually record a session on tape and simultaneously

399
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 2: play it back into a computer. And as soon as

400
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 2: it comes off the record tape, it hits a playback

401
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 2: tape and it goes into pro Tools like within a

402
00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 2: split second. That is quite a modern day of ing now.

403
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 2: So after you've got the drums and all that done,

404
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 2: you could then open up pro Tools and listen to

405
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 2: it and it just sounds fantastic. You can't get it

406
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:17,360
Speaker 2: fresher than that, you know, Okay.

407
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: Let's go back to growing up. People may not realize

408
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 1: that a ten inch speaker is actually pretty big. It'd

409
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 1: be pretty loud. So what'd your parents say when you're

410
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: playing the radio through this amplified ten inch speaker?

411
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 2: Oh, everything you can think of, like shut that thing off,

412
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 2: turn it down, but it you know, I'd say, it

413
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 2: sounds so good loud mom, you know. And she was

414
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: more sympathetic. My dad. Dad just couldn't tolerate it, you know.

415
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 2: And he hated the music. He hated rock and roll.

416
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: And your parents did what for a living?

417
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 2: My father was many things. He was a shipwright in

418
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: the World War Two, so he built ships with the

419
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 2: in the navy yard, the Berkley Navy Yard. Then he

420
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,959
Speaker 2: afterwards found it was like a kind of all around

421
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 2: handyman guy. So he became a professional, sorry, a professional carpenter,

422
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 2: and he was a union member and built a lot

423
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: of houses on Long Island in those days. He would

424
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 2: just go off in his car. We lived in Brooklyn.

425
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,479
Speaker 2: He'd go off in his car and after the cement

426
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 2: work has put down the foundation, he would put the

427
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: timber and the lumber and start building the house. Quite

428
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 2: often he'd build a house single handedly. One day he

429
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 2: took me just he wanted me to hold up a

430
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 2: beam while he nailed it on the other end, you know,

431
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 2: and I had too. He wanted to make a man

432
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 2: of me, he said. So it took two weeks of

433
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 2: my life and my hands were full of splinters and

434
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: cuts and all that. And I said, Dad, I'm just

435
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 2: not going to be a carpenter. You got to get

436
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 2: used to it. But he was. He was a good guy.

437
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 2: He taught me music. He taught me how to play

438
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 2: mandolin and guitar, and he played accordion too, So we

439
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 2: used to jam together. And thanks to him, I knew

440
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 2: all the songs from the thirties and the forties, you know,

441
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: the music that he grew up with, the nineteen thirties

442
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: and forties.

443
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: Right right right, So he literally taught you. He would

444
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: get the instrument out and say this is how you do.

445
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 2: It, yes, and this is I got my first ukulele

446
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 2: at five years old, and it came with a book.

447
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 2: The strings were colored strings. The book had colored the

448
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 2: colored strings equivalent in the book, and I would just

449
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 2: put my finger where the dot was on the right

450
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 2: colored string, and I was playing. By the end of

451
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 2: the day, I was playing a few of the songs

452
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: in the book and within a couple of weeks they

453
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,959
Speaker 2: got me a proper This is a plastic ukulele with

454
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 2: the popeye and olive oil decops all over it. Real

455
00:26:54,440 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 2: Woolworth's piece of dung. But anyway, about three months later

456
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 2: they went out and got me a wooden ukulele and

457
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 2: I started really, you know, jamming on that thing. He

458
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 2: was a good man, it was really. He knew I

459
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 2: had talent, and he nurtured me.

460
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: Okay, this is Brooklyn in the forties and fifties. There

461
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: were a lot of how I've had to put this,

462
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: you know, you gotta be wary of anything you say today.

463
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: There were a lot of ethnicities. There were Jews, there

464
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: were Italians. Was this well, you know, were you you

465
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: have an Italian last name? Was this something that was

466
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: part of your upbringing?

467
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: Yes. I lived in what is now called Bourham Hill,

468
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 2: which we used to just call it downtown downtown Brooklyn.

469
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: So I lived on Warren Street between Hoyt and Smith Street,

470
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: pretty close to the shopping area that was not too

471
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 2: far away. And our building had basically all Italians in

472
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: it because my grandfather owned it, So we had Italians

473
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 2: on We lived on the ground floor and we had

474
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 2: Italians in the middle floor and on the upper floor,

475
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 2: and next door we had a Sicilian family who owned

476
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 2: that house, and you know, we were Neapolitans, not that

477
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 2: I could speak any Italian, but there was like a

478
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 2: lot of love lost between Sicilians and Neapolitans, so we

479
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: had that little battle going on, you know. But my

480
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: mother made friends easily because on the other side of

481
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 2: the street around the corner was Wykoff Street, which was

482
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 2: all black, all black people, and my mother used to

483
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 2: go to the end of the garden and she had

484
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 2: a friend. I forget what her name was, but they

485
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: addressed each other as you know, missus Smith and Missus Visconti,

486
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: and they got on. They would chat for about an

487
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: hour each time and wouldn't invite each other in each

488
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 2: other's houses, but they became good friends. Across the street,

489
00:28:53,520 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: we had this crazy guy who had a junkyard. He

490
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 2: just like was dangerous if you got close to his

491
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 2: junk yard and you wanted to like peek in. And

492
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 2: at once I went in and sat on a tractor.

493
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 2: He nearly killed me, you know, chased me off the

494
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 2: tractor and I ran back across the street to my

495
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: home down the street. We had Irish people all on

496
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 2: us the same street, and we had Hispanic people, and

497
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: we all got along kids in the street, you know,

498
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: playing hopscotch, ring Aleivio, all these crazy street game. You

499
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 2: can only play it in the middle of the street.

500
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: And you needed a lot of chalk to make all

501
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 2: the patterns. And all that. We weren't you know, I

502
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,719
Speaker 2: guess you can gather that we weren't wealthy. We were

503
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: quite working class. But I got toys at Christmas. I

504
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 2: got the ugulele. I got some fun stuff. And my

505
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,959
Speaker 2: mother was a fantastic Italian cook. She would cook and

506
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 2: sing in the kitchen at the same time. And her

507
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 2: sauce or gravy with depending on your ethnic what you

508
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: want to call it started two days before Sunday because

509
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 2: she reduced that those jars of tomatoes to just liquid gold.

510
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 2: It was just delicious. And she would sing Italian songs

511
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 2: in the kitchen. She was a fluent Italian singer, and

512
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 2: she had a voice like an opera singer. I heard.

513
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 2: We had a friend who had a disc cutter in

514
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 2: those days, in the late fifties. He cut these little

515
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: seven inch discs. So I heard my mother sing Italian

516
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: songs on those discs in recent times, about twenty years ago,

517
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: and I said to her on the phone, I said, Mom,

518
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 2: you had an operatic voice. You are a contralto. Do

519
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 2: you realize you could have sung an opera? And she goes, oh,

520
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: she goes, all Italian women could sing. She was a

521
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 2: great sobering influence on me. You know, I didn't grow

522
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 2: up with any airs. The two of them kept me

523
00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: in check and themselves in check too.

524
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: But they were both born in America.

525
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: Yes, my father was born in New Jersey and to

526
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: Italian immigrants, and my mother was born in Brooklyn to

527
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 2: Italian immigrants as well. They were both both born in Naples.

528
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: So what was your upbringing like? Were you popular? Were

529
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: you good in school? Were you a loner? Were you

530
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: exterior or into her? What kind of kid were you? Uh?

531
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 2: I don't know. I remember the first day of kindergarten

532
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 2: well because I cried my eyes out. My mother left

533
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: me and went walked out the door. And that was

534
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 2: the most traumatic day of my life up until that

535
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 2: period to do without my mother, because I was by

536
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 2: her side all the time until I went to kindergarten.

537
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 2: And then I remember within an hour, we were supposed

538
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 2: to sit down and clap hands and sing a song.

539
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 2: And I didn't like the girl to the left of me,

540
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: so I clapped. I opened up my hands so wide

541
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: that I hit her in the head. I don't know

542
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: what I was taking my anger out on, but you

543
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 2: know why I was doing this. But I really did

544
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: not like being separated from my mother. And after that year,

545
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 2: which I don't remember anything more about it, it was just kindergarten.

546
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 2: We just played on the floor and drew, you know,

547
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: pictures and all that. But the first grade was quite interesting.

548
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 2: I was very interested in learning how to read and write,

549
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: and I was already my parents started me off. I

550
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: could read basic words, I knew how the alphabet worked,

551
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 2: and until I was about up until the third grade,

552
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 2: I was a good scholar. I paid attention and it

553
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 2: was good and kind of after that I lost interest.

554
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,719
Speaker 2: When I got up to fifth grade, I or sixth grade,

555
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 2: I got a great teacher. He pulled me out of

556
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: the doldrums of like, you know, just going to school

557
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: and all that. His name was James Flanagan, and he

558
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: was in World War maybe the Korean War. Probably maybe

559
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 2: the Korean War could have been World War Two. I

560
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: don't know, but he told me like lots of stories

561
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 2: and he took me aside. He so that I was like,

562
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: like after class, we'd chat for about fifteen minutes and

563
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: he was really good to me. And one day he said,

564
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: when I was in Japan, I saw men who could

565
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: break wood with their bare hands, and I said, that's it.

566
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 2: I got to learn how to break with with my bands.

567
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 2: He got me like going. And there was early karate

568
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: schools in New York City at the time, which I

569
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: was too young to go to. But I bought a

570
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 2: book and I did my own training in my backyard.

571
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: And I have James Flanagan or Jim, you know, we

572
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 2: could call him. He was cool. We could call him

573
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 2: by his first name in the sixth grade, whereas before

574
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: that you had to call the teachers by their surnames.

575
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: You know, well for people who weren't around. You were

576
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: really early on the karate thing that did not really

577
00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: go mainstream to like mid to late sixties. But you're

578
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: an only child, correct, Yes, I am so any viewpoints

579
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: on that.

580
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 2: Oh, I love being an only child. I don't know

581
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: how to be any other way. Like I look at

582
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: brothers and sisters, and I see how they get along.

583
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 2: And what I witnessed most of the time when I

584
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 2: was growing up was that they were often fighting with

585
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: each other over something like there's one toy to be

586
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 2: shared between two kids, and all that. I didn't share

587
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 2: anything with anybody. They were all my toys, and that's

588
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 2: how I thought it was great. It was great being

589
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 2: an only child. I had a cousin, a close cousin

590
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 2: who used to come over to my house and we

591
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 2: play for a while, and like around I guess twelve

592
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 2: years old thirteen, we just kind of He became very religious.

593
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,800
Speaker 2: He became a religious Catholic and went to a parochial school,

594
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 2: which I just couldn't handle it. I already knew something

595
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 2: was wrong. I didn't want to learn any more religion.

596
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 2: I didn't like it. I didn't like the nuns. I

597
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 2: didn't like the priests. The masses were nice if they

598
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 2: had a nice organ playing, and some of the hymns,

599
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 2: you know that. I like the musical part, but it

600
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 2: just wasn't for me. And when I was fifteen, I

601
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 2: totally left the church. I had a chiropractor who was

602
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: a very modern thinker, and he was again like a

603
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 2: father figure, like mister Flanagan was, and we were talking

604
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 2: about religion one day. He goes, how do you feel

605
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: about it? And I go, I don't know. I said,

606
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 2: it's kind of simple, and yet there's nothing there that

607
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 2: entices me, like wants me to go to church. He goes,

608
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 2: I stopped going to church too, and yah, he made

609
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 2: me the atheist that I am today. I'm actually in

610
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 2: touch with his sons now, who are like in their forties.

611
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 2: You know, he's still alive, that guy.

612
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: Okay, you learn how to play the ukulele. That is

613
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: pre rock and roll. You know, there's so many definitions.

614
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 1: What the first rock and roll wreck was? Was it

615
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: Rocket eighty eight? Rock around the clock? When did you

616
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: hear rock and roll? When did you become infected?

617
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 2: That would be about ten or eleven. I heard these

618
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,919
Speaker 2: early radio shows that Alan Freed did in New York.

619
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 2: He was on once a week, and that's the main

620
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 2: reason why I wanted to build this Frankenstein Radio was

621
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 2: to hear it a little bit better. I wanted to

622
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: hear some bass coming out of the speakers, and Alan

623
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 2: Freed just played fantastic music. He was mainly playing R

624
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: and B, and he played a lot of black artists,

625
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 2: you know, like Little Richard and the Moon Glows, Harvey

626
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 2: and the Moon Glows, all those old doop groups. And

627
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 2: then I discovered Jocko, who was a DJ. I don't

628
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 2: know his full name. He just used to go like,

629
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 2: I am your engineer, ooh, bop do, how do you do?

630
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 2: This is your engineer Jocko. And I used to listen

631
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 2: to him like one morning a week, and he would

632
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 2: play the most insane he'd go much further with the

633
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 2: R and B. He would find some music from the

634
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: Deep South that Alan Freed wouldn't play because Alan Fee

635
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 2: was catering mainly to a white teenage crowd and Jocko

636
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: was catering to a black crowd, black audience. So I

637
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: had the best of both worlds. I can't complain. Was

638
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 2: that so? Anyway? Alan Freed started the first rock and

639
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 2: roll shows ever, like at the Brooklyn Paramount Theater, where

640
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 2: you would have on one bill you would have Buddy Holly,

641
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: Little Richard, Harvey and the Moon Glows, the Cleftones, Shirley

642
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: and Lee, all singing two songs each and they would

643
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: work from morning to night. The first show was like

644
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 2: ten am and the last show ended at midnight, and

645
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 2: I would pay for the I would go in in Brooklyn.

646
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 2: I would take the train to the Brooklyn Paramount, pay

647
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 2: for the to get in, and then hide in the

648
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 2: bathroom in between shows and go back. And I'd stay

649
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 2: till at least eight o'clock at night and see three

650
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 2: shows and to see the people that I was hearing

651
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: Alan Freed play on the radio, to see them live

652
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 2: in color, you know, like the Cleftones would wear double

653
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 2: breasted suits in shaw truce, you know, and shar truce loafers,

654
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: you know, and they were the cool They would have

655
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: the coolest dand steps. You know. While the guy was

656
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 2: singing lead, the other four guys would just drop down

657
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 2: into a split and you can't see that on the radio,

658
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 2: you know. To see these people actually perform these songs

659
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 2: live was incredible. The other thing I remember from this, Bob,

660
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 2: is that they had one guitar amplifier in the middle

661
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 2: of the stage, and that was to suffice for all

662
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: the guitar players in the show, and the lead the

663
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 2: guitar chord went all the way to the side of

664
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: the stage, like it was about, you know, thirty feet

665
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 2: thirty five feet maybe forty feet long, and only about

666
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 2: half the had a guitar player. The rest was an

667
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,479
Speaker 2: in house band. But all of a sudden you would

668
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 2: hear the buzz of, say, somebody plugging it in, and

669
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 2: that had to be either Chuck Berry or Buddy Holly

670
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 2: or somebody like the I think the moon Glows had

671
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 2: an electric guitarist in their band, and that's my heart

672
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 2: would start beating. I said, who is it going to be?

673
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 2: Is it going to be Buddy or is it going

674
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: to be you know, Chuck Berry? And that was even

675
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: The buzz of that guitar being plugged in was exciting

676
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: for me. It made my heart beat quicker.

677
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: Okay, are you an Elvis guy?

678
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely. I have a picture of me singing

679
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 2: Elvis songs. It's just a photograph on my baritone yuke

680
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 2: because I was still too young to have a proper

681
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 2: sized guitar. But I could sing Love Me Tender, playing

682
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 2: accompany myself on a baritone ukulele, which is a slightly

683
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 2: bigger ukulele than the little guy. And I could never

684
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: see him in person. I don't think he ever played

685
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: New York. No he didn't. That would have been that

686
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: would have been you know, that would amaze, be amazing.

687
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 2: But he, you know, had Colonel Tom Parker, who if

688
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 2: the money wasn't right, like he would want the money

689
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 2: from the whole show if Elvis was to appear. So

690
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 2: he never did shows like that, and I never saw

691
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 2: him in person, Bowie said. He met Elvis in person,

692
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:23,439
Speaker 2: but I never did.

693
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: Okay, you learn how to play the ukulele at age five,

694
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: you become infected with rock and roll. What's your musical

695
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: life span after that? When do you start playing other things?

696
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 1: When do you decide you want to play in a band.

697
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: When do you decide this is what you want to

698
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 1: do for a living.

699
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 2: Okay? So by when my parents saw that I was

700
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: outgrowing the ukulele, they got me a guitar and a

701
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 2: friend of theirs who sold it to them, who was

702
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 2: his secondhand guitar. He said, your son should take lessons.

703
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 2: And I've got this great friend the mine. He's a

704
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: guitar teacher who lived in Eastern Parkway, so it was

705
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 2: quite a trick for me. But his name was Leon Block,

706
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 2: and he wrote some great books, great guitar books. And

707
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: I went the bus ride from my house to his

708
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 2: and I would do this all four seasons I went.

709
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 2: I studied with him for three years until I was

710
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 2: fifteen fifteen and a half. That would take an hour

711
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 2: both ways, and I would go in the middle of

712
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 2: the winter if it was snowing, I would not miss

713
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,479
Speaker 2: a lesson. And it was all It was like three

714
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 2: bus rides, you know, three bus changes, you get you

715
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 2: what do you call it? Transfer? And after the three years,

716
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 2: he said he taught me how to read and write music.

717
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: He taught me how to play jazz guitar, classical guitar.

718
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 2: He pulled out some Bach duets. He would take a

719
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 2: Bach two part invention and he would play the bass

720
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: line on a guitar and I would I could already

721
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 2: read travel Cleft, so I would play the top line

722
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 2: and they were difficult gault. But you know, by after

723
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 2: about two years, I was pretty good. And then he

724
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 2: surprised me. He said, now we're going to swap. We've

725
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 2: gone through the book. Now you play the bass line

726
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,919
Speaker 2: and I'll play the top line. I couldn't have asked

727
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 2: for a better teacher than him. That was three years

728
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 2: of bliss, and I always loved him, and any assignment

729
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: he gave me was never too hard. I would just

730
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 2: practice because I wanted to impress him. But by fifteen

731
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 2: and a half I started meeting local musicians who lived

732
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 2: around me and from school and all that, and that's

733
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 2: when I formed my first band. It was actually a

734
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 2: little earlier, but maybe fourteen, and that was with a

735
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 2: sax player who was Mike Di Stefano and his cousin

736
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 2: who was I forget his cousin's name, but he was

737
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 2: a blind drummer and I was the guitarist. So it

738
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 2: was guitar, sax and the drummer and we called ourselves

739
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 2: Mike d and the Dukes. That was my first band.

740
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 2: I was a duke, obviously. So we went and started

741
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 2: playing parish dances, like you know, Saint Bernadette's would have

742
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: dance night for the kids, heavily supervised by priests and nuns.

743
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 2: But we'd get up there and we'd play rock and roll,

744
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 2: and then if we played a slow dance, they would

745
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 2: start dancing cheek to cheek and the priest would say,

746
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 2: stop the music. Stop the music. That's enough to get

747
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,439
Speaker 2: you know, kids who would fourteen and fifteen really get

748
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 2: into it, you know, if you give him a half

749
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 2: a chance and from there. I played that for a

750
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 2: while and I couldn't it was too young for nightclubs.

751
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 2: But when I was seventeen, the most amazing thing happened

752
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 2: to me. And I can't remember exactly how, but through

753
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: a friend, there was this nightclub at the far end

754
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 2: of Brooklyn called Ben Maxick's Town and Country. It was

755
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 2: very close to Floyd Bennett Airfield, and Ben Maxick had

756
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 2: this vision. He loved Las Vegas and he wanted his

757
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 2: was to bring Las Vegas to New York. And he

758
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: couldn't find a space like those enormous you know places

759
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 2: that you can build in the desert in Las Vegas.

760
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 2: It couldn't build in Manhattan. But in Brooklyn there was

761
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 2: real estate where he built like a I don't know,

762
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 2: it's probably a six acre nightclub. He could have a

763
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 2: capacity with two thousand people, and he pulled in acts

764
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 2: like Milton Burle, Robert Goulay, Sophie Tucker, the last of

765
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 2: the Red Hot Mammas. I played for all these people.

766
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 2: So through a friend I got the job. The bass

767
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 2: player just quit his wife had a baby or something,

768
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 2: and I was already another instrument I play is you

769
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 2: know double bass? The upright bass, and Ned Harvey, the

770
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: leader of the band, wanted a kid in the band.

771
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 2: He wanted a young person in the band. My job

772
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 2: was to play the bass for the dance band and

773
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 2: play the bass for the acts like Robert Gulay and

774
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: people that, and then when it was dancing time, I

775
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 2: would have to bring my guitar and play some rock

776
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 2: and roll songs like Elvia songs so the kids could

777
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 2: dance to it, and the kids and their parents could

778
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: dance to it. It was a gig from heaven. I

779
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: had that job for three years, and I made so

780
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 2: much money I bought That's when I got my own instruments.

781
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 2: I didn't have to have my parents by instruments for

782
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 2: me anymore. And I kind of you know, I was

783
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 2: working till three am. So often my father would come

784
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 2: home and find me. He come over from work, say

785
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 2: at four thirty, and I would have my feet up

786
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: watching television, and it made him so angry that I

787
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 2: could just work seven nights a week and make all

788
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 2: this money and he had to work like a dog,

789
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 2: you know. He would often come home at four thirty,

790
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 2: have dinner, and then go out to someone's house and

791
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: put up cabinets for them, you know, And one day

792
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 2: he had we had a big fight about this. I said, Dad,

793
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 2: I can't. What do you want me to do? Work

794
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 2: during the day as well as six hours at night.

795
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: I can't do it, you know.

796
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: Okay, A couple of quick questions, were you ever Anthony

797
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 1: Anthony junior?

798
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I get on the I'd answer the phone,

799
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 2: and by that time, as fifteen, we had my father

800
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 2: and I had the same voice, the same accent, and

801
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 2: they go hello Anthony, and I go, yeah, you go, oh, okay, Anthony,

802
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 2: I want to tell you about a job. I've got

803
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: few and this would be a carpentry job. I go,

804
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: wait a minute, you want Anthony senior. This is Anthony junior. Yeah.

805
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 2: So then they would start calling up I want Anthony

806
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 2: Junior or I want Anthony Senior and all that. So

807
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 2: we had a little problem with that, but it was fun.

808
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 2: It was funny.

809
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 1: Okay, do you finish high school? And is there ever

810
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 1: a thought of college?

811
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,760
Speaker 2: No? I knew I wasn't going to go to college.

812
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 2: I was in college material. I couldn't wait being in

813
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 2: this band until I was seventeen or eighteen. That just

814
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 2: ledged for more great work. And there was no if

815
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 2: you know, I wanted to go to Juilliard. I knew

816
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 2: about Juilliard in Manhattan School of Music, but you could

817
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,959
Speaker 2: tell from all these late nights. And I wasn't doing good.

818
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 2: My marks were horrible. In high school, I didn't get

819
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: good grades. My only two subjects where I got good

820
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 2: grades were music department grades and English. My English was good.

821
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 2: I was always a good reader, a good speller. I

822
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 2: like poetry, I like novels. I read Charles Dickens and

823
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 2: all that. Had no problem with that stuff. But mathematics,

824
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 2: forget about it. I was the worst, you know, and

825
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 2: algebra I could barely understand. Then when it got up

826
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 2: to trigonometry, I just totally flunked. And I couldn't wait

827
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 2: till I hit sixteen because I could leave school, and

828
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 2: I did. I left school as soon as possible. I

829
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 2: just kept getting gigs after gigs after that, and I

830
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 2: never looked back.

831
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: Okay, so what kind of gigs were you getting?

832
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 2: Well, mostly club dates where you would play in a

833
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 2: either a catered hal for a wedding or a bar

834
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 2: mitzter or it's something that those are the only two

835
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 2: gigs available. Actually, a wedding or a bar mitzter or

836
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 2: you sometimes get a Jewish wedding where you had to

837
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 2: know how to play the horror and because shee was

838
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 2: have their own dances, you know. So I was so

839
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 2: well versed I could do anything. I don't know. I

840
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 2: played Greek weddings too, which back basically it's the same music.

841
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: If you play Hava Nagila at a Greek wedding, they'll

842
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 2: dance to it. It's amazing, but it's the same beat.

843
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 2: So I was doing club dates, club.

844
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: Dates in the music world by time we hit the

845
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: late fifties early sixties. Although we have Bobby Darren who

846
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 1: has gotten a renaissance in terms of his reputation, we

847
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: had Fabean, we had a lot of other stuff. Ultimately

848
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: in the sixties had the Four Seeds of the Beach Boys.

849
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: There was also a big folk scene. Where were you

850
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:07,720
Speaker 1: at on all that.

851
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,959
Speaker 2: At the time In my late teens, I definitely wanted

852
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 2: to jump on that bandwagon. And growing up in New York,

853
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 2: it's not really difficult to find a manager or people

854
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 2: who work in the music business. They either live in

855
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 2: Manhattan or they live in Brooklyn, and they actually did

856
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,879
Speaker 2: talent scouting in those days, and at one gig, this

857
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 2: guy came up to me, Jay Fishman, and he said,

858
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 2: I was singing this time. I was singing duets with

859
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 2: a guy called Carl, and we were singing like Everly

860
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 2: Brothers songs, and he said, I'm going to make a

861
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 2: record with you, guys. I can get you a deal,

862
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 2: And he actually did get us a record deal, which

863
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 2: got local airplay. In those days, there was not too

864
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 2: much national radio. Everything was basically local. So he didn't

865
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 2: work out, and I just went through a series of

866
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 2: managers who I guess, you know, in reflection, they want

867
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 2: to be managers. We didn't get a big manager who

868
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 2: could actually get us on a big label, but I

869
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 2: ended up through these managers. I ended up doing a

870
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,240
Speaker 2: lot of recording sessions. So I stepped into the recording

871
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 2: studio is early is like probably my sixteenth year, and

872
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 2: started playing for demo sessions. They were quite lucrative, so

873
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 2: a songwriter would come in and just say I've written

874
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 2: four songs. I need you guys to just give me

875
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 2: some backing, and we could get that done in maybe

876
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 2: two three hours, and I'd walk away with about you know,

877
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 2: twenty five dollars in my hand, which was good in

878
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 2: those days. Good pay.

879
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: Okay, the Beatles hit What does that mean to you?

880
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 2: The Beatles changed everything. I keep telling younger people. I said,

881
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: the world was black and white, and then when we

882
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 2: heard She Loves You, Yeah, yeah, yeah, the world suddenly

883
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,399
Speaker 2: became technicolor. They did that in music, and they did

884
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 2: that in lifestyle. You know, kids actually started looking like

885
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 2: kids instead of you know, young adults wearing your your

886
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 2: bar Mitz for suit all the time when you went out.

887
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 2: You know, we started wearing buying these hip clothes that

888
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 2: were being imported from from England and they were inspired

889
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 2: by the Beatles. With the Beatles wore you know, collarless

890
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 2: jackets and all that stuff. And I said to myself,

891
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,399
Speaker 2: somehow I'm going to get over to London. I don't

892
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 2: know how I'm going to do it, but somehow I'm

893
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 2: going to do that. And that took a while, but

894
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 2: it happened. It really it happened. At one point. It

895
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 2: was a keeper, another key person who came into my

896
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 2: life and I had to learn how. I said, okay,

897
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 2: here's how it happened. I had a publishing deal. A

898
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,879
Speaker 2: talent scout saw me and my wife, who were doing

899
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:51,320
Speaker 2: a duet act by that time. We called ourselves Toni

900
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 2: and Sigrid, and we were playing at the in the village,

901
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: like at the Cafe Wi and all those village kind

902
00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 2: of cool hippie places to perform at. And as a

903
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 2: result of a talent scout seeing us there, he got

904
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 2: a publishing deal with the Richmond Organization, which is a

905
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 2: big publishing house in Manhattan and they've got branches all

906
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 2: over the world. So Howie Richmond listened to my songs

907
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 2: for weeks on end and brought me into his office

908
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 2: one day and he said, Tony, I've got to have

909
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 2: a serious talk with you. And I got terrified. He

910
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 2: was the CEO. I got terrified, and I said, okay.

911
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 2: So I went to his office and he said, Tony,

912
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 2: I've got to tell you you've put in a lot

913
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 2: of songs. I've listened to everything. I've listened to your tapes.

914
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 2: He goes, I don't like your songs. Got to tell

915
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 2: you the truth, and I go and my face talk

916
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 2: about crestfallen. I nearly my jaw dropped. I never was

917
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 2: expecting that. So in the next breath he says, but

918
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 2: I like your tape recordings. He says, I like you

919
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 2: recordings very much. He goes, I would like you to

920
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 2: make the house record producer. I have all these kids

921
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 2: here who write music and all that, but we don't

922
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 2: have good recording facilities. I can't get decent demos. They

923
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 2: sound horrible because your demos, what do you do? And

924
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 2: all that? And I go, well, I've got two machines

925
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,280
Speaker 2: at home, and I do all this bouncing like Les Paul,

926
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 2: does you know I have five guitars and two basses

927
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 2: and things like that. I hit a pillow for a

928
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 2: kick drum and things like that. So he set me

929
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 2: up with the studio in the Richmond Organization. This is

930
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 2: a fifty ninth street in Columbus Circle. And I worked

931
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 2: there for about a year. I was getting paid to

932
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 2: do all this and not making any records of my

933
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 2: own anymore. But at the water fountain, the water cooler,

934
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 2: one day I happen to be there at the same

935
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 2: time as this very tall, distinguished gentleman was. He had

936
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 2: silvery curly hair. He was wearing a jacket and a

937
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 2: soup and no tie. And he said, she said one thing.

938
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:05,760
Speaker 2: He said, Hellaire an English accent, and I go, you're English.

939
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 2: I was like, the first english person I ever met

940
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 2: my life. He goes, oh, yes, I am. My name

941
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 2: is Danny Cordell. I work in England. And I said,

942
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 2: my gosh. He said what's your name? I go Tony Visconti,

943
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 2: I said, and he says, what do you do here?

944
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 2: I go, well, I'm Tony Visconti and I'm the house

945
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 2: record producer. And he goes, ah, my American cousin. I go,

946
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:29,439
Speaker 2: what do you mean by that? He goes, well, I'm

947
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,319
Speaker 2: the house record producer for this company in London. Same thing.

948
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 2: It's the same job. And I went, that's fantastic, you know.

949
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:41,320
Speaker 2: And we sipped a few more cups of water and

950
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 2: I said to him what are you doing here? And

951
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 2: he goes, I'm recording a track for Georgie Fame. It's

952
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 2: a big, big British artist at the time, very jazz

953
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:54,439
Speaker 2: orientated artist. And he said, I'm going to record at

954
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 2: I've got a session book at A and R studios.

955
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 2: The R was Phil ramon phil Ramone Studio, which was

956
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 2: Hallowed Ground. I had never been in there, but this

957
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 2: is cool. I go, well, that's fantastic. Can I see

958
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 2: the charts, you know. He told me he had Clark

959
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 2: Terry on trumpet. I adored Clock Terry, one of the

960
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: greatest jazz musicians ever, trumpeters who ever lived. And I said,

961
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 2: can I see the music? And he said, I don't

962
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 2: have any charts. I don't have any music. And I go,

963
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 2: how do you do it in the UK UK? And

964
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 2: he says, well, we booked the studio for three in

965
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:33,800
Speaker 2: the afternoon. I hire a bunch of musicians and we

966
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 2: play a demo and then we'd start rolling some spliffs,

967
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 2: and we smoke some weed, you know, and we just

968
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 2: work all day until maybe by eleven o'clock at night,

969
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 2: we've got it, you know, we've got the track. And

970
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 2: I said, Denny, this is New York City. We have

971
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 2: the local eight oh two Musicians Union. You will be

972
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 2: crucified if you ask Clark Terry to write down these

973
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 2: trumpet parts that you're playing to me on this tape.

974
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 2: He'll do it, but you get it. You'll get a

975
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 2: thousand dollar bill for it. You know, you can't ask

976
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 2: Clock Terry to write the charts, because what am I

977
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 2: going to do? I said, I can read and write music.

978
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 2: So I wrote the chart. I wrote the chord changes

979
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 2: indicated in which bar like in bar number thirty drum fill.

980
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 2: I just wrote the words drum fill. I'm not going

981
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 2: to write a drum fill. I'll leave it to the

982
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 2: clever drummer who we booked. But I had to write

983
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 2: Clark Terry's parts out. It was a very strict written thing.

984
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 2: This took me a good part of an hour. We

985
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 2: slammed it on the Xerox. We had these new Xerox

986
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 2: machines and ran down forty eighth Street in Manhattan with

987
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 2: about eight eight parts, put them in front of all

988
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:45,879
Speaker 2: the musicians, and right away I saw clock Terry right away.

989
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,759
Speaker 2: He starts going up up, but he starts playing it

990
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 2: off the sheet music, and I look at Danny, and

991
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 2: Danny looks at me. Danny's got this big grin on

992
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 2: his face. This isn't going to be like London. This

993
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 2: is we're going to get this done. When I told

994
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 2: him he'd be crucified, he was very, very worried by

995
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 2: the way. He had just produced a wider shade of

996
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 2: pale and he was rolling, you know, pop success. But

997
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 2: he didn't have a lot of money. So this session

998
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 2: took all of forty five minutes and we had this

999
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 2: fantastic tracts. The song was because I Love You. It's

1000
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 2: an early Georgie fame hit, and clock Terry was cool.

1001
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 2: Everybody was cool. They liked the fact that it was

1002
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 2: well prepared. So a week two weeks later, he goes

1003
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 2: back to London and he phones me up and says,

1004
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 2: how soon could you get here? I go, Now, I'm

1005
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 2: not doing anything, so he said, okay, He goes, well,

1006
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 2: I'm gonna after I spoke to you, I went to

1007
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 2: I met a few other people, record producers, and I

1008
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 2: even spoke to Phil Specterer asking him to come and

1009
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 2: work for me. I said, oh, you'd be lucky. You've

1010
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 2: got Phil Specks that to work for you. He's not

1011
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 2: that kind of guy, you know, but anyway, he says,

1012
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 2: you're the guy I want. He says, the way you

1013
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 2: work you did that session was great. I need someone

1014
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 2: to translate what I hear in my head into music

1015
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 2: into musical notes. And two weeks later I was in

1016
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 2: London and went to the studio, but my very first

1017
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 2: day I was terribly jet lagged. But then he took

1018
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 2: me to a Manfred Man session which he was producing.

1019
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 2: He was producing too many people, and he really did

1020
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:33,959
Speaker 2: need an assistant, and after about two hours he left

1021
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 2: me with Manfred Man on my own. Bob, I had

1022
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 2: no experience, no experience dealing with especially with British people

1023
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 2: who spoke a different language basically, so they hated me.

1024
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 2: They didn't like my American accent. So I thought I'll

1025
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 2: be a little cheerful. So I was in the studio

1026
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 2: and we did a lot of takes. We did up

1027
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 2: to six takes, and they were already in misery, these guys.

1028
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 2: They wanted Denny and they got this young American punk instead.

1029
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 2: So I said, okay, here we go. We're going to

1030
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 2: do take seven, Lucky take seven, and they went oh,

1031
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 2: they all audibly groaned. I was like being a DJ,

1032
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 2: you know, Lucky takes seven. And so when Denny come back,

1033
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 2: came back, we finally got a good take and he

1034
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 2: listened to what we had done, and they did as well.

1035
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 2: They warmed up to me at the very very end,

1036
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 2: but that was was It was horrible. My first day

1037
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 2: was so horrible. And the ability not to understand them, like,

1038
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 2: you know, they've got different words, like if they're happy

1039
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 2: about something, they're chuffed. I didn't know that word chuffed.

1040
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 2: I didn't know what chuffed meant. Sounds like a chimney

1041
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 2: going what the hell does that mean? You know? So

1042
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 2: that was it. That's how I got there, and that's

1043
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 2: basically the beginning of my career as what I do today.

1044
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 1: Okay, so play it out. You're in London, now you

1045
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: work with man from Man, You're working with Denny. What

1046
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 1: comes next?

1047
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 2: Well with Denny I played. I went onto all kinds

1048
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 2: of sessions, including more another Georgie Fame session two. I

1049
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 2: tagged along on his Parcol Harrem sessions and helped again.

1050
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,439
Speaker 2: He left me in charge one day, which went down

1051
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 2: a little bit better. They they knew me already. They

1052
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,439
Speaker 2: I came to a few before he left me with them,

1053
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 2: and they they knew I was on their side, and

1054
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 2: I knew what I was talking about. So I remember

1055
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 2: I produced a whole track from scratch called Magdalene my

1056
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:40,560
Speaker 2: regal Zonophone, all in one day. Denny was in awe

1057
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:41,960
Speaker 2: of that. He came back, he goes, you did this

1058
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 2: all in one day? He was He was slow and

1059
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 2: I was fast. So after that I worked with his

1060
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 2: group called the Move, which was Birmingham's answer answer to

1061
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 2: the Beatles, like Birmingham was called the Birmingham Beatles at

1062
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 2: one point because they wanted they emulated everything the Beatles did,

1063
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 2: and I had had quite a few hit records with them,

1064
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 2: both as a co producer and an arranger. The first

1065
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 2: record I did for them was a song called Flowers

1066
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 2: in the Rain, and I recorded, you know, everybody was

1067
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 2: doing Elden or Rigby. They wanted strings and all that stuff,

1068
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 2: and I thought it's time we got off the strings

1069
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 2: and onto some other classical instruments. So because it was

1070
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 2: Flowers in the Rain, I thought of Mendelssohn and I thought,

1071
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:29,440
Speaker 2: I'm going to write something pastoral and for that you

1072
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 2: need a flute, you need an obo, a clarinet and

1073
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 2: a French horn. That's that's a win combination that normally

1074
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 2: plays pastoral music. So it was a wacky arrangement I wrote.

1075
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 2: It was reached number two in the charts and when

1076
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 2: Radio one in England opened, you know they had these

1077
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 2: this corny radio before, but Radio One was the pop station.

1078
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:53,760
Speaker 2: I listened to it at eight o'clock in the morning.

1079
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 2: I wanted to hear that this station opening up. The

1080
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 2: DJ Tony Blackburn the first record he played It was

1081
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:03,760
Speaker 2: Flowers in the Rain by the Move, and I nearly

1082
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 2: screamed and jumped off my couch. You know, it was

1083
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 2: just a fantastic experience.

1084
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: Well, just to stop there for a second. That was

1085
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 1: an interesting band. They used to come to America, they

1086
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 1: canceled tours, they broke up, whatever. But roy Wood was

1087
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 1: seen as the talent and jeff Lynn was a secondary character,

1088
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 1: even though we sang a certain amount. Then there was

1089
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 1: the first Elo, then they split apart. There was roy

1090
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 1: Wood's Wizard, and then ultimately jeff Lynn goes on to

1091
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 1: this incredible career with Elo and more. Did you have

1092
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:37,960
Speaker 1: any idea at that point in time? Was he just

1093
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 1: another guy in the band?

1094
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 2: Well, when they formed Not Yellow, what did you say? Wizard?

1095
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:48,919
Speaker 2: Roy wanted me to play keyboards in the band, and

1096
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:54,000
Speaker 2: he was dead serious. And I said, Roy, he thought

1097
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 2: I played keyboards because I wrote arrangements. I had already

1098
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 2: written three arrangements for them by that time. I said, no,

1099
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:04,920
Speaker 2: I actually write them on the classical guitar. And he says, well,

1100
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 2: we've got enough guitar players in the band. Sure, so

1101
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 2: you're sure you can't play keyboards? They go, no, I

1102
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 2: have to give up on that. So Jeff Lynn came

1103
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 2: in around that time, and you know they did a

1104
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 2: great job. Well that worked, but I gave birth to

1105
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 2: some of that. Some of my soul is in the

1106
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 2: In the subsequent things that Roy did, we always got

1107
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:28,040
Speaker 2: on really great. He's a great guy.

1108
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:31,680
Speaker 1: Okay, So from the move, keep telling, let's what happened.

1109
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 2: Well, from the move, my boss said it's time you

1110
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 2: got a band of your own. He goes, you know

1111
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 2: how to do it? Conduct a session on your own. Now,

1112
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 2: you know, I was with him by his side for

1113
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 2: a whole year, and so he tried me out with

1114
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 2: a guy called Bedo. First all, he walked into our offices.

1115
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 2: Bid is a famous Bollywood composer, but he came to London,

1116
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:02,840
Speaker 2: as he called himself the Indian Elvis, and in truth

1117
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 2: he had a voice just like Elvis Presley, but he

1118
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 2: had a bit of an accent. So I made one

1119
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 2: record with Bido and I said, and then he said,

1120
01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 2: well I'm not going to It didn't do anything, and

1121
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 2: we didn't leave acrimoniously. It just didn't do anything. So

1122
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:19,200
Speaker 2: David dropped Bido and he said, you pick your band.

1123
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 2: You go out and pick your band. Who you want

1124
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 2: to work with? I said, okay. So I heard this

1125
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 2: band called Tyrannosaurus Rex played every weekend on John Peel's

1126
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:31,800
Speaker 2: radio show, and I happened to see the Underground. I

1127
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,080
Speaker 2: got a copy of the underground newspaper. I forget what

1128
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 2: it was called now and Tyrannosaurus Rex we're playing right

1129
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 2: around the corner from my office on Tottenham Court Road

1130
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 2: in England. So after work, I noted the time it

1131
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 2: was seven pm. I left work at six pm, went

1132
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 2: to the corner pub, a pub called a Tutor. I

1133
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 2: fortified myself with a big pint of ale, and then

1134
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 2: I walked down to Tottenham Court Road and went to

1135
01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:01,640
Speaker 2: that nightclub where Tyrannosaurus Rex was playing. And I walked

1136
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:04,960
Speaker 2: down the steps. It was like red light, dim light dim,

1137
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 2: red lighted steps, and I hear the band playing coming

1138
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 2: up through the stairwell and it was dead quiet. And

1139
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 2: I'm used to going to gigs where the band the

1140
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 2: audience is clapping, singing along and all that, and I thought,

1141
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 2: no one's there. I walk in that room and there

1142
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:26,120
Speaker 2: were about seventy five kids sitting on the floor, cross legged,

1143
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:32,280
Speaker 2: listening attentively to Mark and Steve sing these songs. I

1144
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 2: have never seen that in my life. They weren't singing along,

1145
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 2: they were just worshiping him. So I approached the group afterwards,

1146
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:43,520
Speaker 2: and I approached the drummer first, because I didn't even

1147
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 2: know if Mark was like an alien. Mark Bowling was

1148
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:49,400
Speaker 2: weird and he sang in this very affected voice, which

1149
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 2: I thought, maybe he's French. You know, I didn't know

1150
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 2: how to approach him anyway. Steve said, just don't talk

1151
01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:59,160
Speaker 2: to me, man, talk to him. He's the leader. So

1152
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 2: I gave Mark my business card and Mark followed up.

1153
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 2: The next day. He came to our offices and he

1154
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 2: phoned from the street. He said, I just happened to

1155
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:12,440
Speaker 2: be passing your offices and I'd like to come up

1156
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 2: an audition for Denny Cordell. So that's how it began.

1157
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 2: With my very first talent scouting produced came up with

1158
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 2: Mark Bolan and Tyrannosaurus Rex.

1159
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:26,920
Speaker 1: Okay, but they were an acoustic act. Then how did

1160
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 1: it end up becoming an electric act? And called t Rex?

1161
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 2: Well, that was about all I could handle. You know,

1162
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 2: two people I could handle. I could play the psychology

1163
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 2: games with two people. They had like percussion in the band,

1164
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 2: bongo drums, conga drums and all that, and they Denny said, okay,

1165
01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 2: we'll tell you I like them, we'll take them on

1166
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 2: as our token underground group. That was exact words, token

1167
01:06:57,120 --> 01:07:00,120
Speaker 2: underground group. And already there was a very popular or

1168
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 2: in England, a band in England called the Incredible String Band,

1169
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 2: and Torontosaurus Rex were not unlike them, so there was

1170
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:10,640
Speaker 2: a big market for this kind of rock folk early

1171
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 2: you know, psychedelic folk people will call it. So we

1172
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:19,320
Speaker 2: made these kind of psychedelic rock folk records for three

1173
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:23,040
Speaker 2: albums with the acoustic instruments, and then by the end

1174
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:25,440
Speaker 2: of the second album, Mark used to come around to

1175
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 2: my apartment and he would always pick up my Fender

1176
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:31,240
Speaker 2: Stratocaster guitar and play it, and he ended up borrowing

1177
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:34,000
Speaker 2: it on the third album, and then that's when we

1178
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:38,080
Speaker 2: started going electric, but not the drum kit yet, except

1179
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 2: everything had to be like miniature. So they did get

1180
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 2: a drum kit for the next album, where it was

1181
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:48,960
Speaker 2: a toy drum set from Hamley's Toy Shop in London,

1182
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:52,320
Speaker 2: so it's actually a drum kit for like an eight

1183
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 2: year old. But we detuned the drums and Steve played

1184
01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:00,640
Speaker 2: the hell out of these drums. So it's on especially

1185
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 2: on a song called Cat Black the Wizard's Hat, you

1186
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:06,200
Speaker 2: can hear this full drum kit, but it's actually a

1187
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 2: toy drum kit called from a company called Chet, from

1188
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:10,600
Speaker 2: a company called Chad Valley.

1189
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 1: Okay, in America, the incredible stream band I think was

1190
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:18,400
Speaker 1: on Warner Brothers. They had a certain amount of a presence.

1191
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:22,000
Speaker 1: T Rex was almost nothing. You saw write a White

1192
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:26,280
Speaker 1: Swan in the bins? What was the profile of the

1193
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:27,519
Speaker 1: group in the UK?

1194
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 2: By the time they did right a White Swan they

1195
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 2: were Mark was quite famous because he was so cute

1196
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:37,800
Speaker 2: and he was a teenage He noticed that the girl

1197
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:40,639
Speaker 2: the audience was made mainly of girls who was screaming

1198
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 2: while he was on stage. This is towards the fourth

1199
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:48,479
Speaker 2: album and with the electric guitar, and he borrowed my bass.

1200
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:52,000
Speaker 2: Uh this is this is very funny because wider White

1201
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:54,640
Speaker 2: Swan is an a flat which means he had to

1202
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 2: play it with the capo on the fourth fret of

1203
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 2: the guitar. And then when he borrowed my bass to

1204
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:04,719
Speaker 2: play the bass part, he had to put the capo

1205
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:07,519
Speaker 2: on the fourth fret of the bass, which I never

1206
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:09,240
Speaker 2: saw a bass player do in my life, put a

1207
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 2: capo on a bass, but he played all the guitar

1208
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 2: and the bass. And by this time we had Mickey

1209
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:21,440
Speaker 2: Finn in the band. Steve Peregrine took was fired unceremoniously

1210
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 2: fired and that record took about two hours to make,

1211
01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:30,080
Speaker 2: Right a White Swan, and we put it out. You know,

1212
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:33,720
Speaker 2: we always put out singles as Tyrannosaurus Rex, but they

1213
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,400
Speaker 2: didn't do very well. It never did very well. We

1214
01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:38,759
Speaker 2: did a name change. We called a band t Rex.

1215
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:42,720
Speaker 2: John Peel reluctantly played it. He thought that they had

1216
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:45,559
Speaker 2: sold out and he was ready to discard them quickly

1217
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:49,520
Speaker 2: because he defeated the underdog and now Mark was becoming popular.

1218
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:53,120
Speaker 2: That was like, you know, an eth to John Field.

1219
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:56,400
Speaker 2: But he played it and then Radio one took it

1220
01:09:56,479 --> 01:10:00,040
Speaker 2: up and that record was played night and day, and

1221
01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:04,280
Speaker 2: we sold We was selling upwards of about six thousand

1222
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:07,799
Speaker 2: a day. In those days. You know, there was no internet,

1223
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:10,439
Speaker 2: so you had to go out and buy a record

1224
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:12,840
Speaker 2: if you liked it, and maybe you taped it off

1225
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:16,839
Speaker 2: your friend's record player. But basically record sales were enormous

1226
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:21,160
Speaker 2: in those days. He was now he was a megastar overnight.

1227
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 1: People don't understand how big he really was. He was

1228
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:33,360
Speaker 1: as big as they get.

1229
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 2: He was as big as the Beatles, and Ringo said

1230
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:39,799
Speaker 2: so himself when he made the movie with him, he said,

1231
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:43,639
Speaker 2: he said when, And then Mark went four piece as well.

1232
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:46,559
Speaker 2: By then they were drawing the same crowds and the

1233
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:50,320
Speaker 2: same reactions, probably even bigger crowds than the Beatles. Because

1234
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:53,519
Speaker 2: the Beatles never really played arenas apart from the say

1235
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:56,559
Speaker 2: stadium or something like that. Mark was playing arenas by

1236
01:10:56,640 --> 01:11:01,280
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two in the UK, not so good in

1237
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:04,880
Speaker 2: America though he never quite broke the back of that one.

1238
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 1: So how did you feel having this incredible success?

1239
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:10,680
Speaker 2: I loved it. You know, now all my dreams are

1240
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:13,080
Speaker 2: coming true. I wanted to be a successful record producer.

1241
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 2: I'm also singing backups on these records. I'm very much

1242
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:18,240
Speaker 2: a part of the band. When they're in the studio,

1243
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 2: we get on, we get along as friends. It was

1244
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:26,400
Speaker 2: the dream everybody wants to happen when they get into

1245
01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:27,200
Speaker 2: the music business.

1246
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:27,360
Speaker 1: You know.

1247
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:31,360
Speaker 2: I had about three solid years of t rextasy. It

1248
01:11:31,439 --> 01:11:34,840
Speaker 2: was called by the press, and Mark was controversial. He

1249
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:38,439
Speaker 2: used to do the wickedest interviews. He would really be

1250
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:42,280
Speaker 2: insulting to the journalists and just to get controversy. You know,

1251
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:45,160
Speaker 2: they try to tear him apart, but they were actually

1252
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:49,840
Speaker 2: giving him more ink than the normal rock star because

1253
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:51,800
Speaker 2: because they wanted to tear him down. You know, it

1254
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:53,240
Speaker 2: was so cool. You knew what to do.

1255
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:57,360
Speaker 1: And how did Bengagong get it on come together?

1256
01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 2: That was on a trip to America that we both

1257
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:06,760
Speaker 2: coincidentally went on at the same time. He got a

1258
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:11,360
Speaker 2: mini tour planned for him and it was to start

1259
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:15,720
Speaker 2: in New York and then they would fly to LA

1260
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:18,800
Speaker 2: to work with Flow and Eddie from the Turtles, and

1261
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:21,640
Speaker 2: they got flowin Eddie got a studio and I just

1262
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:23,599
Speaker 2: happened to be there to see my parents. I came

1263
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:25,519
Speaker 2: home for a trip to Brooklyn to see my parents,

1264
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:28,519
Speaker 2: but Mark knew I was there and he said, let's

1265
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:32,120
Speaker 2: make a record you're here. So we hired Media Media

1266
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:35,280
Speaker 2: Sound in Manhattan. It was like a jazz studio, but

1267
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:38,160
Speaker 2: we did Jeepster and Monolith. We did a couple of

1268
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,640
Speaker 2: tracks that would later appear on Electric Warrior. Then the

1269
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 2: trip to La came up, because do you want to

1270
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:45,640
Speaker 2: go with us? You want to go to La, I go.

1271
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:49,120
Speaker 2: Of course I do. So we flew out to La

1272
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:52,760
Speaker 2: Flowin Eddie arranged Wali Hyder's studio for us, which was

1273
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:55,439
Speaker 2: like one of the best studios in La at the time,

1274
01:12:55,960 --> 01:12:59,200
Speaker 2: and that's how we recorded Get It on Bangagong and

1275
01:12:59,240 --> 01:13:03,080
Speaker 2: I got some lovely photos from there. And they made

1276
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:05,720
Speaker 2: the Jewish connection too. When Flo and Eddi, who were

1277
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:08,679
Speaker 2: both Jewish, found out that Mark was Jewish, there's something

1278
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:12,800
Speaker 2: deeper about that relationship took place, you know, it was

1279
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:15,880
Speaker 2: really great. And then they started making Yiddish jokes. You know,

1280
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:19,320
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it. They grew up. Mark grew up

1281
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:20,960
Speaker 2: with you know, he heard these words when he was

1282
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:22,800
Speaker 2: growing up, and so did Flow and Eddie, you know.

1283
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:24,880
Speaker 2: And if you live in New York, no matter if

1284
01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:28,559
Speaker 2: your Italian friend or Jewish, you learn Yiddish. That's one

1285
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:31,840
Speaker 2: of the languages you pick up the words. So we

1286
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:35,160
Speaker 2: had sessions that were so funny and I left the

1287
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:37,960
Speaker 2: tape running, you know, just cracking jokes all the time.

1288
01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:42,000
Speaker 2: And that's how we re recorded about four or five

1289
01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:45,160
Speaker 2: more songs at Wally Hiders studios with Flowin Eddi at

1290
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:47,439
Speaker 2: their auspices because they made it really easy for us

1291
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:50,799
Speaker 2: to work there, and then the rest of the tracks

1292
01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 2: were on the flight back to London. We took up

1293
01:13:54,439 --> 01:13:57,640
Speaker 2: in Tried Studios in which was a great studio in

1294
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:00,960
Speaker 2: Soho and finished the rest of the album. It was

1295
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:04,759
Speaker 2: like a Frankenstein album, all different consoles, all different sounds.

1296
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:08,800
Speaker 2: But I mixed it in Tridon Studios so that in

1297
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:12,879
Speaker 2: that way I made it a more cohesive, cohesive sounding record.

1298
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:16,080
Speaker 2: But that was we were in Seventh HEAVENO.

1299
01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:20,599
Speaker 1: Okay. But the sound of the guitar on Bang of Gong,

1300
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:23,040
Speaker 1: can you tell us anything about getting it? It just

1301
01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:24,719
Speaker 1: has an incredible sound.

1302
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:31,160
Speaker 2: Yes, he had a two pedals. One was a wah

1303
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:33,599
Speaker 2: wah and the other ones. You know what a wah

1304
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:38,160
Speaker 2: wah is that it goes so and another one was

1305
01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:41,680
Speaker 2: a treble booster which had had had a distortion and

1306
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:45,639
Speaker 2: crunch to the sound and he had that almost maxed out.

1307
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:48,360
Speaker 2: So between the wah wah, which if you don't move

1308
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:50,320
Speaker 2: the wah wah, you could move it to a certain

1309
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:53,960
Speaker 2: position and get a certain tone, but when you move

1310
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:56,040
Speaker 2: it up and down you get the wow effect. So

1311
01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:59,320
Speaker 2: between positioning the pedal in a certain way and having

1312
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:02,600
Speaker 2: the screaming bird put in the circuit. He got this

1313
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:05,960
Speaker 2: crunchy sound, and then I would go up and you know,

1314
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:08,120
Speaker 2: like let's make it loud, OR'd turn up the Marshall

1315
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:11,519
Speaker 2: lamp and all that, and basically that was the sound.

1316
01:15:12,160 --> 01:15:16,639
Speaker 2: What I did add in the mixing, which he loved,

1317
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 2: was slapback. He was so keen on the you know,

1318
01:15:20,240 --> 01:15:23,800
Speaker 2: the Elvis Presley slap back, a Wop Boba loom up,

1319
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:26,599
Speaker 2: the Little Richard's slap back and all that stuff, and

1320
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:29,960
Speaker 2: he wanted on both his guitar and his voice, and

1321
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 2: it became a signature sound. Having the kick drum to

1322
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:37,040
Speaker 2: the four was another sound. We were one of the

1323
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:40,680
Speaker 2: early doers of that, you know kick You listen to

1324
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:43,080
Speaker 2: early R and B you can barely hear the kick drum.

1325
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:46,640
Speaker 2: But suddenly in the seventies people were saying, what what

1326
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:48,680
Speaker 2: what the kick drums a great thing? Why is it

1327
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:51,320
Speaker 2: so quiet in the mix. So we had the drums

1328
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:53,560
Speaker 2: up pretty loud. We even put slap back on the

1329
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:57,599
Speaker 2: drums too, for the tom phills. And I said, after

1330
01:15:57,640 --> 01:15:59,479
Speaker 2: about two years of this, I said, you can get

1331
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 2: me out of bed at five in the morning and

1332
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:03,360
Speaker 2: put me behind a console. I'll get you that sound

1333
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:06,439
Speaker 2: in half an hour. You know, it was a formula.

1334
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:10,240
Speaker 2: We invented a formula and we were accused of formulizing

1335
01:16:10,280 --> 01:16:12,400
Speaker 2: the sound and I said, yep, that's what we're doing.

1336
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:15,680
Speaker 2: You're absolutely Did you know.

1337
01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:19,639
Speaker 1: Get It On was gonna be a gigantic kit when

1338
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:20,320
Speaker 1: you finished it?

1339
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:24,320
Speaker 2: No, we honestly didn't. We were doing everything the same

1340
01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:27,800
Speaker 2: we always did, Bob, and we put singles out. They

1341
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:31,600
Speaker 2: weren't hits, minor hits, but not major hits. Something was

1342
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:34,920
Speaker 2: right about this one. It was more brevity in the

1343
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:37,800
Speaker 2: lyrics that helped. You know, Mark was writing these sagas

1344
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:41,000
Speaker 2: in his earlier work. They were based on Tolkien and

1345
01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:45,160
Speaker 2: you know, full of dwarfs, elves and things like that,

1346
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:50,960
Speaker 2: and he just did the right stuff. There's couplets and

1347
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:53,960
Speaker 2: then the chorus, get it on, Banga gong, get it on.

1348
01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:56,360
Speaker 2: That's the chorus. That's the shortest chorus he had written

1349
01:16:56,360 --> 01:17:00,400
Speaker 2: in his life. And that was the secret brevity. And

1350
01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:03,120
Speaker 2: the strings that was another thing. He got very superstitious

1351
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:06,920
Speaker 2: about the strings. When we did our next single, gosh,

1352
01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:11,000
Speaker 2: I can't remember what it was, oh metal Guru, he said,

1353
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:15,439
Speaker 2: let's go in, let's just mix it and I go, Mark,

1354
01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 2: the strings, we've had the strings on ride a white

1355
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:22,360
Speaker 2: Swan and get it on. I think it's part of

1356
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:26,519
Speaker 2: our good luck. And he turned pale. He goes, you're right,

1357
01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:30,160
Speaker 2: let's have strings on hot hot love. It was hot love.

1358
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:33,800
Speaker 2: Let's have strings on hot love. So that was it

1359
01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:38,839
Speaker 2: from then to the very end. I did eight albums

1360
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:41,600
Speaker 2: with him. I had to get down and write some

1361
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:44,240
Speaker 2: pretty nifty strings every time we made an album.

1362
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:49,719
Speaker 1: Afterwards, Okay, the Slider Summer of seventy two, I believe

1363
01:17:50,360 --> 01:17:54,720
Speaker 1: in the UK gigantic Banya Goong is delayed as a

1364
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:56,760
Speaker 1: hit in the US, and it is a big hit,

1365
01:17:56,880 --> 01:18:01,400
Speaker 1: certainly on FM radio formats were changing. The Slider meant

1366
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:05,680
Speaker 1: nothing in America and meant everything in the UK. Do

1367
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:08,000
Speaker 1: you have any insight on that?

1368
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:11,040
Speaker 2: That's interesting. I wasn't aware of that. I know a

1369
01:18:11,040 --> 01:18:14,120
Speaker 2: lot of Americans now like the Slider. You know, looking back,

1370
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:17,479
Speaker 2: it is a fantastic album. It's the best of the three,

1371
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:20,280
Speaker 2: the first three. The next one would be an album

1372
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:25,920
Speaker 2: called Tanks, which tanked. But the Slider was phenomenal, and

1373
01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:30,320
Speaker 2: I think Mark was at his best. His guitar playing

1374
01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:32,759
Speaker 2: was at his best, his writing was at its best,

1375
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:37,439
Speaker 2: and we took a little more time on it. Another

1376
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:40,320
Speaker 2: funny thing happened on that he stopped using Flow and Eddie.

1377
01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:44,000
Speaker 2: We originally had them on one or two tracks, and

1378
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:48,280
Speaker 2: then we went in on another day and he said,

1379
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:50,639
Speaker 2: we're going to do backing vocals. I go, what happened

1380
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:53,760
Speaker 2: to Flow and Eddie? He goes, they copped in attitude

1381
01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:55,960
Speaker 2: with me? I go, what happened? What did they say?

1382
01:18:56,000 --> 01:19:02,400
Speaker 2: He goes, they wanted to get paid honestly, so I'm

1383
01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:04,719
Speaker 2: looking at him. I am getting paid as the producer,

1384
01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:07,800
Speaker 2: but you know, not as a backing singer. So that

1385
01:19:07,960 --> 01:19:11,360
Speaker 2: was a shame, a real, real shame. I think later on,

1386
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:14,479
Speaker 2: when he in his late late seventies before he died,

1387
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:16,680
Speaker 2: he got back. He got them on one of his

1388
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 2: self produced albums. He got them back again. I hope

1389
01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:20,439
Speaker 2: he paid him. I think he did.

1390
01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:28,560
Speaker 1: Okay. He ultimately dies in this car accident and Gigantic

1391
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:31,639
Speaker 1: in England. You were the producer. How big a talent

1392
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:32,719
Speaker 1: was Mark Bowlin?

1393
01:19:34,439 --> 01:19:41,040
Speaker 2: He was great. His songwriting abilities were enviable, even David said.

1394
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:45,400
Speaker 2: David Bowie said, Mark writes the greatest lyrics and there

1395
01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:52,679
Speaker 2: his imagery was incredible, like you know, diamond star halo.

1396
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:55,360
Speaker 2: You wear a diamond star halo. It's beautiful. David wouldn't

1397
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:57,439
Speaker 2: come up with diamond star halo, but then he would

1398
01:19:57,479 --> 01:19:59,920
Speaker 2: go on in the same song more metaphors like that,

1399
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:04,360
Speaker 2: you know, crazy ones. And his guitar playing was primitive.

1400
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:07,400
Speaker 2: I worked it out one day. He's got a knowledge

1401
01:20:07,439 --> 01:20:12,599
Speaker 2: of seven chords. But oh boy, what he did to

1402
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:15,080
Speaker 2: some people say, oh but oh boy, what he did

1403
01:20:15,080 --> 01:20:17,559
Speaker 2: with those seven chords. But you know, he would slide

1404
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:20,000
Speaker 2: his guitar up, his capo up and down the fret.

1405
01:20:20,040 --> 01:20:24,559
Speaker 2: He could play in any key he wanted. And some

1406
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:27,519
Speaker 2: chords he obviously didn't know. And I wondered why he

1407
01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:29,320
Speaker 2: couldn't even figure that out. And I tried to teach

1408
01:20:29,400 --> 01:20:31,720
Speaker 2: him these chords. He wouldn't want to learn. He just

1409
01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:36,760
Speaker 2: had this. He was formulaic himself, and his records were

1410
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:40,200
Speaker 2: still sounding the same. But why not, because it was

1411
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:43,360
Speaker 2: a really good formula we had going. But I'd say

1412
01:20:43,400 --> 01:20:46,599
Speaker 2: his talent was in the songwriting. He must have written

1413
01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:50,120
Speaker 2: over two hundred songs, maybe even more than that.

1414
01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:53,560
Speaker 1: Okay, you're working for the company when you find Taranosaurus

1415
01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:58,759
Speaker 1: Rex today, Well, let's talk pre internet. A record producer

1416
01:20:58,800 --> 01:21:01,719
Speaker 1: would get four or five per saying, either from record

1417
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:05,040
Speaker 1: one or when we coop, is it you getting paid

1418
01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:07,720
Speaker 1: a producer's fee on every record? What's going on with you?

1419
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:11,760
Speaker 2: So everything up to at the up to the end

1420
01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:14,760
Speaker 2: of Electric Warrior, I was getting a royalty and till

1421
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:17,160
Speaker 2: this day, Bob, it's the gift that keeps on giving.

1422
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:20,320
Speaker 2: I get royalties three times a year from that company

1423
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:24,840
Speaker 2: and I recorded a few other acts for them as well.

1424
01:21:25,479 --> 01:21:30,519
Speaker 2: But from the Slider they wanted to we had a

1425
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:36,920
Speaker 2: deal and Mark said, I don't know. We had a

1426
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:40,880
Speaker 2: royalty situation for a while. Then his company stopped paying it.

1427
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:43,920
Speaker 2: They said, we feel you've had enough. You know, the

1428
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:48,960
Speaker 2: record's long been paid for. You know, it's sold, and

1429
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:52,320
Speaker 2: we're not selling those those amounts of records anymore. Then

1430
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:57,880
Speaker 2: the next album, Tanks, I worked without a contract. He

1431
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:04,040
Speaker 2: his wife came to me and she said, you know,

1432
01:22:04,840 --> 01:22:07,639
Speaker 2: we feel We spoke to Mark's lawyer and we feel

1433
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:11,800
Speaker 2: that you don't need a contract anymore. You don't need

1434
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:14,280
Speaker 2: a royalty anymore. We're going to make a deal with you.

1435
01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:19,880
Speaker 2: We'll pay you ten pounds per annum something like for

1436
01:22:19,920 --> 01:22:21,640
Speaker 2: the rest of your life. But maybe it wasn't. It

1437
01:22:21,680 --> 01:22:23,800
Speaker 2: was like for the next five years or something like that.

1438
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:27,559
Speaker 2: So I did. I made the next album, zinc Alloy,

1439
01:22:28,160 --> 01:22:31,719
Speaker 2: under those conditions, the fourth album that was the big

1440
01:22:31,840 --> 01:22:36,000
Speaker 2: t Rex hit, and it did well. But then Mark

1441
01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:39,519
Speaker 2: started the cocaine and alcohol abuse started getting out of

1442
01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:43,200
Speaker 2: control and he was being really unkind to everyone. He

1443
01:22:43,280 --> 01:22:46,120
Speaker 2: was like he was a drunk, you know. He was

1444
01:22:46,160 --> 01:22:51,600
Speaker 2: like cursing everyone out, being a very, very unruly. So

1445
01:22:52,160 --> 01:22:53,519
Speaker 2: I had a little talk to them at the end.

1446
01:22:53,520 --> 01:22:55,200
Speaker 2: I said, we're going to part company. I don't like

1447
01:22:55,240 --> 01:22:57,519
Speaker 2: the way you're treating people. And that was it. We

1448
01:22:57,560 --> 01:22:59,400
Speaker 2: parted under those conditions.

1449
01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:02,360
Speaker 1: How long did you get the ten thousand dollars?

1450
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:05,679
Speaker 2: I never got it. I think I got the ten

1451
01:23:05,720 --> 01:23:10,080
Speaker 2: thousand for that fourth album, the zinc Allo album, and

1452
01:23:10,120 --> 01:23:13,680
Speaker 2: that was it. And it was you know, it's a

1453
01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:16,080
Speaker 2: little foggy in my brain because I don't really want

1454
01:23:16,120 --> 01:23:19,760
Speaker 2: to think about it that much. How David was the

1455
01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:22,680
Speaker 2: complete opposite. He was a gentleman of his word. He

1456
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:26,240
Speaker 2: would always honor his contracts, even if it was just

1457
01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:29,000
Speaker 2: a handshake. He would always honor what he said. Mark

1458
01:23:29,120 --> 01:23:32,920
Speaker 2: was the opposite. He would just hope you would conveniently

1459
01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:34,240
Speaker 2: forget about it, you know.

1460
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:37,639
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're working with t Rex over a period

1461
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:40,280
Speaker 1: of years. You're a record producer. You're not in the band,

1462
01:23:40,360 --> 01:23:42,439
Speaker 1: so you're working on other stuff. What are you working on?

1463
01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:47,160
Speaker 2: Well? I went through many period different periods.

1464
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:49,599
Speaker 1: In the eighties, no no, no, no, no no. Back

1465
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:53,720
Speaker 1: in the seventies, seventies, late sixties. When how do you

1466
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:56,799
Speaker 1: ultimately get hooked up with David Bowie?

1467
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:04,400
Speaker 2: That was really easy was Mark Bolan's publisher, and my

1468
01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:07,439
Speaker 2: offices were in the same house as the publishing house.

1469
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:12,479
Speaker 2: So Gus Dudgeons. Gus Dudgeon produced Elton John. He was

1470
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:16,479
Speaker 2: one house producer. I was another house producer, Denny Cordell

1471
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:19,880
Speaker 2: and Don Paul. We were four house producers for that

1472
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:24,840
Speaker 2: company who had a label called New Breed at first

1473
01:24:24,920 --> 01:24:30,640
Speaker 2: and then Good New Breed Productions. Oh, I forget what

1474
01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:33,720
Speaker 2: else it was called. But David Plattz, who was the

1475
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:39,120
Speaker 2: publisher who owned all these companies, including our contracts, had

1476
01:24:39,280 --> 01:24:42,479
Speaker 2: all these writers. One of his main writers was Anthony Newley.

1477
01:24:43,240 --> 01:24:46,080
Speaker 2: And when he heard David Bowie sing, he saw a

1478
01:24:46,080 --> 01:24:48,760
Speaker 2: young Anthony Newley. He hired him on the spot. He

1479
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:51,920
Speaker 2: signed him up for a publishing contract, and David had

1480
01:24:51,960 --> 01:24:54,840
Speaker 2: already made a record for d Ram Records, which is

1481
01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:58,880
Speaker 2: a Decca company, which tanked. It really didn't do very well,

1482
01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:03,920
Speaker 2: although it showed off his skills and it was all

1483
01:25:03,960 --> 01:25:07,000
Speaker 2: over the place. So one day David Plattz calls me

1484
01:25:07,439 --> 01:25:10,800
Speaker 2: into his office after I had all these Tyrannosaur these, yeah,

1485
01:25:10,800 --> 01:25:13,160
Speaker 2: the Tyrannosaurus rex hits, and you know, I'm making money

1486
01:25:13,160 --> 01:25:16,439
Speaker 2: for the label. He said, I've got an artist I

1487
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:20,080
Speaker 2: think would be a good match for you. And I said, okay,

1488
01:25:20,600 --> 01:25:22,840
Speaker 2: I'm listening. He goes, so he put on the d

1489
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:26,479
Speaker 2: Ram album when he's saying like when I Live My Dream,

1490
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:30,280
Speaker 2: which sounded exactly like Anthony Nuley. Then he did another

1491
01:25:30,400 --> 01:25:33,880
Speaker 2: played Another song was the Laughing Postman, which was he

1492
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:36,439
Speaker 2: did this chipmunk voice, you know, half speed voice where

1493
01:25:36,439 --> 01:25:39,840
Speaker 2: he started laughing like a postman but with a chipmunk.

1494
01:25:40,320 --> 01:25:44,519
Speaker 2: And then all the other songs bore no uh, there

1495
01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:48,040
Speaker 2: was no continuity in styles. So he said, what do

1496
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:51,080
Speaker 2: you think. I said, he's great, He's got a great voice,

1497
01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:53,599
Speaker 2: he's a great writer, but he's all over the place.

1498
01:25:54,479 --> 01:25:56,360
Speaker 2: If I were to work with him, I would have

1499
01:25:56,400 --> 01:25:58,880
Speaker 2: to focus him he'd have to do one thing, and

1500
01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:01,640
Speaker 2: I think the op obviously obvious thing for him to

1501
01:26:01,680 --> 01:26:04,400
Speaker 2: do would be to be a rock singer. He's got

1502
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:06,080
Speaker 2: the chops, he can do it. I'm sure he can

1503
01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:09,760
Speaker 2: do it. He goes, okay, I was thinking along those lines.

1504
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:11,920
Speaker 2: He goes, would you like to meet him? I go yeah.

1505
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:16,160
Speaker 2: He goes, step right this way, and he opened the door.

1506
01:26:16,200 --> 01:26:18,880
Speaker 2: It was a setup. He asked David to come in

1507
01:26:18,880 --> 01:26:21,120
Speaker 2: that day to meet me. He opens the door to

1508
01:26:21,160 --> 01:26:24,519
Speaker 2: his like inner sanctum there and David's waiting for the meeting,

1509
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:29,799
Speaker 2: and I the first thing I noticed were his eyes.

1510
01:26:30,560 --> 01:26:32,040
Speaker 2: You know, I thought he's a good looking boy, But

1511
01:26:32,080 --> 01:26:34,640
Speaker 2: what's he got these two different colored eyes for? You know,

1512
01:26:34,640 --> 01:26:37,720
Speaker 2: what's all that about? So he shakes my hand and

1513
01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:42,160
Speaker 2: he's very, very like excited to meet me. And I

1514
01:26:42,280 --> 01:26:45,519
Speaker 2: found out that he was a like I don't know

1515
01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:48,360
Speaker 2: how you said, he equivalent an Anglo file, an American file.

1516
01:26:48,439 --> 01:26:48,640
Speaker 1: You know.

1517
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:51,200
Speaker 2: He he loved American music. He grew up on R

1518
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:54,599
Speaker 2: and B records, same as I did. We loved we

1519
01:26:54,680 --> 01:26:58,479
Speaker 2: loved the odd person out, like the legendary star dust cowboy.

1520
01:26:58,920 --> 01:27:01,000
Speaker 2: We both were in love with those kind of records

1521
01:27:01,240 --> 01:27:05,679
Speaker 2: Nervous Norvis who sang Transfusion, he had all those records

1522
01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:08,040
Speaker 2: that I had, and we found that out in that

1523
01:27:08,200 --> 01:27:12,880
Speaker 2: interview outside of David Plattz's office, and we got on

1524
01:27:13,000 --> 01:27:16,799
Speaker 2: like brothers, and by six, when six o'clock rolled around,

1525
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:20,280
Speaker 2: we said, oh wet, they were locking up. They kicked

1526
01:27:20,360 --> 01:27:23,880
Speaker 2: us out, so we walked down Oxford Street, which is

1527
01:27:24,200 --> 01:27:27,880
Speaker 2: one part of town, and we walked and talked for

1528
01:27:28,080 --> 01:27:31,080
Speaker 2: another hour until we got to King's Road in London

1529
01:27:31,800 --> 01:27:34,160
Speaker 2: and we were looking at all the windows of clothes

1530
01:27:34,240 --> 01:27:38,559
Speaker 2: we couldn't afford yet, and we came to the art

1531
01:27:38,640 --> 01:27:41,519
Speaker 2: theater they had there. Forget the name of the street,

1532
01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:44,479
Speaker 2: but they had They only played scratchy black and white films,

1533
01:27:44,479 --> 01:27:47,719
Speaker 2: which we said, we like scratchy black and white films.

1534
01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:50,160
Speaker 2: Both of us liked those. And they had a Knife

1535
01:27:50,200 --> 01:27:53,960
Speaker 2: in the Water playing at one of these cinemas, and

1536
01:27:54,600 --> 01:27:56,200
Speaker 2: we said, shall we go in and watch it? So

1537
01:27:56,360 --> 01:27:58,960
Speaker 2: this is about eight eight in the evening, so we

1538
01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:01,760
Speaker 2: bought two tickets, sat down, we watched the Knife in

1539
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:04,719
Speaker 2: the Water and we eventually said good night at about

1540
01:28:04,720 --> 01:28:08,400
Speaker 2: eleven thirty at night. From say three point thirty in

1541
01:28:08,439 --> 01:28:11,840
Speaker 2: the afternoon, that's We were such good friends by the

1542
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:14,639
Speaker 2: end of the day. And then we started seeing each

1543
01:28:14,680 --> 01:28:19,120
Speaker 2: other socially for quite a while. And then he said,

1544
01:28:19,120 --> 01:28:21,559
Speaker 2: Deco wants me to make one more record, and I

1545
01:28:21,640 --> 01:28:24,680
Speaker 2: made this record with him. It's kind of a It's

1546
01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:27,040
Speaker 2: a record called London by Tata. It was as close

1547
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:28,880
Speaker 2: as it was pop record. It wasn't a rock record,

1548
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:33,519
Speaker 2: it was a pop record. And they had another male artist.

1549
01:28:33,560 --> 01:28:35,679
Speaker 2: It was either they wanted to drop one of them.

1550
01:28:36,080 --> 01:28:39,040
Speaker 2: It was going to be Bowie or Kat Stevens. So

1551
01:28:39,200 --> 01:28:43,840
Speaker 2: when I I produced this less than you know, this

1552
01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:46,800
Speaker 2: less than kind of production, they kept Cat Stevens and

1553
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:50,400
Speaker 2: dropped David. But actually it freed him from that label.

1554
01:28:50,439 --> 01:28:52,920
Speaker 2: He would have they would never have seen him as

1555
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:55,800
Speaker 2: a future rock star. I always did. I knew he

1556
01:28:55,840 --> 01:28:59,439
Speaker 2: was going to go places. So we kind of rambled

1557
01:28:59,479 --> 01:29:01,599
Speaker 2: around over the next couple of years. We never really

1558
01:29:01,640 --> 01:29:05,360
Speaker 2: did anything great until the Space Oddity album, which we

1559
01:29:05,760 --> 01:29:08,200
Speaker 2: worked on together, and then The Man Who Sold the World,

1560
01:29:08,240 --> 01:29:10,519
Speaker 2: which was the next one. Now he was a rock star.

1561
01:29:11,080 --> 01:29:15,880
Speaker 1: Okay, Space Oddity, that's Gus, right, Are you involved in

1562
01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 1: Space Oddity? The track?

1563
01:29:18,080 --> 01:29:22,240
Speaker 2: No? So when David played it to me, I said

1564
01:29:22,240 --> 01:29:26,760
Speaker 2: to him, I know what you're doing. There's a guy

1565
01:29:26,840 --> 01:29:29,160
Speaker 2: up in space. Now, you know, the NASA just put

1566
01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:31,680
Speaker 2: a guy in space in his tin can. I know

1567
01:29:31,720 --> 01:29:34,920
Speaker 2: what you mean by the tin can. And I said,

1568
01:29:34,920 --> 01:29:37,200
Speaker 2: but it's a cheap shot, you know, if it's it's

1569
01:29:37,240 --> 01:29:41,120
Speaker 2: based on a special event, it's not based on like,

1570
01:29:41,479 --> 01:29:43,080
Speaker 2: what are you gonna do? Write an album full of

1571
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:47,680
Speaker 2: science fiction songs? Which he eventually right. He goes, he

1572
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:50,639
Speaker 2: says yeah, but he goes everyone's saying it's a hit record.

1573
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:53,240
Speaker 2: I go, I think it is a hit record. But

1574
01:29:53,400 --> 01:29:56,040
Speaker 2: I said, in good conscience, I can't go this route

1575
01:29:56,040 --> 01:29:58,400
Speaker 2: with you. You know, go go it some Gus loves you,

1576
01:29:58,479 --> 01:30:00,920
Speaker 2: he adores you, and he he had already worked with

1577
01:30:01,439 --> 01:30:04,479
Speaker 2: When David used to be on Decka, the Deca label,

1578
01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:07,760
Speaker 2: Gus already had worked with him. So I went to

1579
01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:10,240
Speaker 2: Gus and I said, you like this? He goes, yeah,

1580
01:30:10,320 --> 01:30:13,080
Speaker 2: He goes, why don't you do it? He goes, you're crazy, Tony.

1581
01:30:13,200 --> 01:30:15,840
Speaker 2: I go, no, I don't like it. I can't rook.

1582
01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:19,040
Speaker 2: I can't produce something I don't like. And he said,

1583
01:30:19,200 --> 01:30:21,160
Speaker 2: you're sure you're okay with this? I go, you got

1584
01:30:21,160 --> 01:30:24,840
Speaker 2: my blessings. So he finds Paul Buckmaster, who was also

1585
01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:27,960
Speaker 2: published by David Platz. It was all kind of in house,

1586
01:30:28,880 --> 01:30:33,280
Speaker 2: and when I heard it, I changed my mind. I said, shit,

1587
01:30:33,840 --> 01:30:36,920
Speaker 2: I should have produced that record, but I don't think

1588
01:30:36,960 --> 01:30:41,400
Speaker 2: I could have done Gus's job. He he threw the

1589
01:30:41,479 --> 01:30:44,040
Speaker 2: kitchen sink in it, and I wasn't yet a kitchen

1590
01:30:44,080 --> 01:30:45,880
Speaker 2: sink producer. I would have it would have been a

1591
01:30:45,880 --> 01:30:50,120
Speaker 2: more subtle piece of work. But since then, with all

1592
01:30:50,160 --> 01:30:53,519
Speaker 2: these atmosts and all these surround sound mixing things, Gus

1593
01:30:53,560 --> 01:30:56,280
Speaker 2: Gus has passed away, had passed away years ago. I

1594
01:30:56,320 --> 01:30:59,600
Speaker 2: have been mixing Space Odyssey over and over again in

1595
01:30:59,680 --> 01:31:02,479
Speaker 2: new formats. So I'm quite familiar with the song.

1596
01:31:03,400 --> 01:31:05,719
Speaker 1: Okay, but you work on the album after you hear the.

1597
01:31:05,640 --> 01:31:09,320
Speaker 2: Song, definitely yet so that surprised me. This is where

1598
01:31:09,320 --> 01:31:14,360
Speaker 2: our friendship came in. So after the song was made,

1599
01:31:14,439 --> 01:31:18,040
Speaker 2: I met David back in the office and I go, well,

1600
01:31:18,080 --> 01:31:19,800
Speaker 2: I suppose you're going to be working with gust from

1601
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:22,760
Speaker 2: now on. You guys did great together. He goes, oh no, no,

1602
01:31:23,120 --> 01:31:24,720
Speaker 2: I had to get out. I had to get that

1603
01:31:24,800 --> 01:31:28,640
Speaker 2: out of the way. Now let's make the album. So

1604
01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:31,040
Speaker 2: he invited me back to make the rest of the album,

1605
01:31:31,439 --> 01:31:34,280
Speaker 2: which was good. You know, it's not a bad album.

1606
01:31:34,280 --> 01:31:37,320
Speaker 2: It's got some really good tracks on great songs. And

1607
01:31:37,360 --> 01:31:39,840
Speaker 2: then Space Out Audity sticks out like a sore thumb.

1608
01:31:39,920 --> 01:31:42,320
Speaker 2: You know, it's clearly the best track on the album

1609
01:31:43,479 --> 01:31:45,400
Speaker 2: that you know, you live and you learn.

1610
01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:49,120
Speaker 1: Okay, then The Man Who Sold the World, which means

1611
01:31:49,200 --> 01:31:52,120
Speaker 1: nothing when it comes out, nor does Space Oddity in

1612
01:31:52,160 --> 01:31:54,960
Speaker 1: the US, but I know it had some impact in

1613
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:56,920
Speaker 1: the UK. So tell me about that album.

1614
01:31:58,520 --> 01:32:02,080
Speaker 2: But okay. By this time David was coming around to

1615
01:32:02,160 --> 01:32:05,360
Speaker 2: my flat with Mark Bolin. Sometimes David would would miss

1616
01:32:05,360 --> 01:32:07,880
Speaker 2: his last train to Beckenham and he would sleep over.

1617
01:32:08,640 --> 01:32:11,200
Speaker 2: Sometimes he would bring girls back to my flat to

1618
01:32:11,240 --> 01:32:13,800
Speaker 2: have sex with them. But it was clear that he

1619
01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:16,519
Speaker 2: had to have a flat of a house of his own,

1620
01:32:16,720 --> 01:32:21,479
Speaker 2: you know, he was like living between friends apartments and

1621
01:32:21,520 --> 01:32:24,080
Speaker 2: his go back to his parents now and then to

1622
01:32:24,120 --> 01:32:27,000
Speaker 2: get the laundry done, things like that. So he found

1623
01:32:27,040 --> 01:32:30,679
Speaker 2: this big house in Beckenham, Kent, which is hat In Hall,

1624
01:32:30,760 --> 01:32:33,559
Speaker 2: which is you know everyone knows about had In Hall now.

1625
01:32:33,760 --> 01:32:37,360
Speaker 2: It's an old Victorian house. It was beautiful. It was

1626
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:39,800
Speaker 2: like a film set from Hammer Films. It was just

1627
01:32:39,920 --> 01:32:44,559
Speaker 2: absolutely beautiful and eerie. It felt haunted, I believe it was.

1628
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:48,320
Speaker 2: So he lives there, and he and Angie, his wife,

1629
01:32:48,800 --> 01:32:50,560
Speaker 2: felt that it was just too big just for the

1630
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:54,800
Speaker 2: both of them, and they asked myself and my girlfriend Liz,

1631
01:32:54,840 --> 01:32:57,439
Speaker 2: would they like to come and share the place with them.

1632
01:32:58,160 --> 01:33:00,920
Speaker 2: And we took one look at it and the real

1633
01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:04,360
Speaker 2: estate was huge. You know, there's a lot of apartment there.

1634
01:33:04,520 --> 01:33:07,200
Speaker 2: There was a wine cellar where we could set up

1635
01:33:07,520 --> 01:33:11,040
Speaker 2: a band, a drum kit and rehearse. So Liz and

1636
01:33:11,040 --> 01:33:15,519
Speaker 2: I moved into Haddon Hall and it was like really

1637
01:33:15,520 --> 01:33:18,479
Speaker 2: great for a while until it became a kind of

1638
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:21,320
Speaker 2: meeting place for all the young kids in the neighborhood.

1639
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:24,880
Speaker 2: And there would be knights that'd come home from work exhausted.

1640
01:33:25,160 --> 01:33:27,479
Speaker 2: There'd be about twenty people in that apartment, you know,

1641
01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:31,120
Speaker 2: just hanging off the There was a beautiful balcony around

1642
01:33:31,240 --> 01:33:34,960
Speaker 2: around the apartment, you know, hanging out doors, smoking dope.

1643
01:33:36,120 --> 01:33:40,000
Speaker 2: People would disappear into a bedroom upstairs. It was just like,

1644
01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:42,920
Speaker 2: this is getting like too hedonistic for me, you know,

1645
01:33:43,320 --> 01:33:45,120
Speaker 2: for a guy who just wanted to come home from

1646
01:33:45,160 --> 01:33:49,559
Speaker 2: work and chill, you know, So we still kept we

1647
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:52,400
Speaker 2: still made the Mansoul the world. Under those conditions, I

1648
01:33:52,479 --> 01:33:57,280
Speaker 2: moved to a nearby town called Penge and we went down.

1649
01:33:57,320 --> 01:34:00,920
Speaker 2: We finally got Woody in the band. We had Mick

1650
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:04,880
Speaker 2: Ronson in the band. He was heaven sent and Mick

1651
01:34:04,960 --> 01:34:09,200
Speaker 2: slowly got rid of everyone in the band that he

1652
01:34:09,400 --> 01:34:12,439
Speaker 2: had friends up in Hull, that he wanted to bring

1653
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:14,599
Speaker 2: them down. So the first thing was he replaced all

1654
01:34:14,800 --> 01:34:19,639
Speaker 2: London drummer with Woody Woodmansey, who was in his band

1655
01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:23,160
Speaker 2: called the Rats back up in Hull, and I was

1656
01:34:23,160 --> 01:34:26,599
Speaker 2: the bass player. So Mick, Woody and myself and David

1657
01:34:26,640 --> 01:34:29,920
Speaker 2: on twelve string guitar formed a group which we went

1658
01:34:29,960 --> 01:34:32,400
Speaker 2: through many names, but one of the names that stuck

1659
01:34:32,400 --> 01:34:35,920
Speaker 2: with us was called the Hype. We were called Joe

1660
01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:41,040
Speaker 2: the Butcher at one point, and so we went into

1661
01:34:41,080 --> 01:34:47,320
Speaker 2: the studio and we said let's we liked. Mick Ronson

1662
01:34:47,360 --> 01:34:49,719
Speaker 2: loved Cream and he said, if you're going to play

1663
01:34:49,720 --> 01:34:51,760
Speaker 2: bass with me, he goes, I want you to listen

1664
01:34:51,800 --> 01:34:54,800
Speaker 2: to Jack Bruce and Cream. He goes, I want you

1665
01:34:54,840 --> 01:34:56,760
Speaker 2: to just that's the kind of bass player I want

1666
01:34:56,800 --> 01:34:58,880
Speaker 2: to work with. Because I was, up until that point

1667
01:34:58,880 --> 01:35:01,880
Speaker 2: of meat and potatoes bass player. I played funky stuff,

1668
01:35:02,520 --> 01:35:04,719
Speaker 2: but then I listened to Jack Bruce and he's playing

1669
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:07,759
Speaker 2: bass like a lead guitar. He's bending all the notes

1670
01:35:07,760 --> 01:35:10,840
Speaker 2: and he's playing fast scales and going all over the place.

1671
01:35:10,880 --> 01:35:13,000
Speaker 2: I said, I went back to make I said, oh,

1672
01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:15,000
Speaker 2: I get it. You want me to play lead bass,

1673
01:35:15,520 --> 01:35:17,720
Speaker 2: which wasn't a thing yet. I mean, Jack Bruce was

1674
01:35:17,760 --> 01:35:20,960
Speaker 2: the only one doing that. So I started showing off.

1675
01:35:21,000 --> 01:35:23,280
Speaker 2: And I was also a guitar player, so this was

1676
01:35:23,400 --> 01:35:26,519
Speaker 2: easy to do this for me, just to play all

1677
01:35:26,520 --> 01:35:30,120
Speaker 2: over the place and play complicated stuff, and some of

1678
01:35:30,120 --> 01:35:34,080
Speaker 2: those parts like are iconic, like you hear Neirvada playing

1679
01:35:34,160 --> 01:35:36,360
Speaker 2: the Manusola World and playing my bass part, you know,

1680
01:35:37,360 --> 01:35:39,840
Speaker 2: and other people who ventured to play the title track

1681
01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:45,080
Speaker 2: that is some complicated bass part. I'm in a tribute

1682
01:35:45,080 --> 01:35:47,080
Speaker 2: band now where we do it play some of those

1683
01:35:47,120 --> 01:35:50,479
Speaker 2: songs on stage, and it takes me about two or

1684
01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:52,759
Speaker 2: three months to get back into shape again and remember

1685
01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:56,600
Speaker 2: all those notes again. But the Manusolda World didn't do

1686
01:35:56,680 --> 01:35:58,160
Speaker 2: what we thought it would do. We thought we were

1687
01:35:58,240 --> 01:36:02,479
Speaker 2: going to be the next We thought we were gonna be,

1688
01:36:02,680 --> 01:36:06,840
Speaker 2: you know, a really big prog rock band, but they

1689
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:08,559
Speaker 2: didn't like us. You know, we did a big gig

1690
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:13,719
Speaker 2: at the Roundhouse, and we were booed off the stage.

1691
01:36:14,479 --> 01:36:16,639
Speaker 2: Not off the stage, but we were you know, some

1692
01:36:16,720 --> 01:36:19,200
Speaker 2: of the some of the songs went down great, but

1693
01:36:19,360 --> 01:36:21,960
Speaker 2: some people were just booing us through throughout the songs

1694
01:36:21,960 --> 01:36:25,679
Speaker 2: and they couldn't get that basis he already had Space

1695
01:36:25,720 --> 01:36:28,240
Speaker 2: Oddity as a hit. They just wanted to, like, hear

1696
01:36:28,320 --> 01:36:31,559
Speaker 2: more Space Oddity. But he never did write those songs,

1697
01:36:32,080 --> 01:36:40,680
Speaker 2: those more than Space Ardity songs until maybe Ziggy started us.

1698
01:36:43,280 --> 01:36:47,479
Speaker 1: Okay, you part ways. He makes a somewhat acoustic album

1699
01:36:47,560 --> 01:36:52,280
Speaker 1: Hunky Dory, which is phenomenal, but the real breakthrough comes

1700
01:36:52,320 --> 01:36:55,840
Speaker 1: in seventy two, the same time as the Slider with

1701
01:36:56,000 --> 01:37:00,559
Speaker 1: Ziggy Stardust. You were not involved in those records. Yet,

1702
01:37:00,720 --> 01:37:02,880
Speaker 1: you're not involved with a Laddin scene, which I thought

1703
01:37:02,880 --> 01:37:04,679
Speaker 1: was a little bit of a disappointment, but you come

1704
01:37:04,760 --> 01:37:09,519
Speaker 1: back with Diamond Dogs. So what's your relationship with David

1705
01:37:09,640 --> 01:37:12,040
Speaker 1: and what's your observation of him during that period?

1706
01:37:13,160 --> 01:37:16,679
Speaker 2: Well, during his Ziggy days he made contact with me again,

1707
01:37:16,920 --> 01:37:19,840
Speaker 2: there was a little we didn't speak to each other

1708
01:37:19,880 --> 01:37:23,439
Speaker 2: for about a year after I left the Hype you know,

1709
01:37:23,640 --> 01:37:26,280
Speaker 2: the mansoulta world because it wasn't a hit, there was

1710
01:37:26,360 --> 01:37:29,400
Speaker 2: no point in staying together. He had to rethink his plan.

1711
01:37:29,880 --> 01:37:31,840
Speaker 2: I had to go back to Mark Bowling and make

1712
01:37:31,880 --> 01:37:35,599
Speaker 2: records like the Slider and get gainfully employed again. It

1713
01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:38,720
Speaker 2: wasn't making a lot of money and becking him. And

1714
01:37:39,840 --> 01:37:43,920
Speaker 2: suddenly then he said to me once like we should

1715
01:37:43,960 --> 01:37:47,200
Speaker 2: have dinner together, and I said, well, have dinner at

1716
01:37:47,240 --> 01:37:51,080
Speaker 2: my house. My mother's here and she's made, like these girls,

1717
01:37:52,200 --> 01:37:55,680
Speaker 2: great Italian food. So he comes in in all his

1718
01:37:56,080 --> 01:38:02,000
Speaker 2: ziggy regalia. He was ziggy off stage and when I

1719
01:38:02,040 --> 01:38:04,720
Speaker 2: say that, he had the like six inch heels, the

1720
01:38:05,240 --> 01:38:08,559
Speaker 2: spiked orange red hair and all that, and he's wearing

1721
01:38:08,600 --> 01:38:12,479
Speaker 2: you know, epaulets on his shoulders and he's iggy starred us.

1722
01:38:12,920 --> 01:38:16,599
Speaker 2: And we have this babysitter who was a Bowie fan,

1723
01:38:16,760 --> 01:38:20,040
Speaker 2: he later found out, and she's in the kitchen with

1724
01:38:20,200 --> 01:38:23,880
Speaker 2: holding a saucepan that had boiling water in it with

1725
01:38:23,960 --> 01:38:26,439
Speaker 2: the baby's bottle in it. We had an infant son

1726
01:38:26,479 --> 01:38:30,120
Speaker 2: at this time, and David walks into the kitchen and

1727
01:38:29,560 --> 01:38:33,880
Speaker 2: she sees it's David Bowie and she screams and drops

1728
01:38:33,880 --> 01:38:37,519
Speaker 2: the boiling water on the floor. And he had that

1729
01:38:37,680 --> 01:38:42,320
Speaker 2: impact on people. But anyway, she managed to recover and

1730
01:38:42,520 --> 01:38:44,800
Speaker 2: we had a lovely get together and then from then

1731
01:38:44,840 --> 01:38:47,439
Speaker 2: on we saw each other socially a lot and had

1732
01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:51,479
Speaker 2: dinners and restaurants. So by the time Diamond Dogs came around,

1733
01:38:52,160 --> 01:38:55,040
Speaker 2: he was, you know, working with other people, but he

1734
01:38:55,120 --> 01:38:58,160
Speaker 2: said he was making an album. He had been all

1735
01:38:58,160 --> 01:39:02,360
Speaker 2: over town with every engineer, every recording studio, and he

1736
01:39:02,560 --> 01:39:05,640
Speaker 2: just can't get a good mix out of the record.

1737
01:39:06,040 --> 01:39:09,000
Speaker 2: It was made under kind of horrible conditions. I won't

1738
01:39:09,040 --> 01:39:11,160
Speaker 2: go into the engineer who made the album, but it

1739
01:39:11,280 --> 01:39:13,720
Speaker 2: wasn't a well recorded album. You needed to do some

1740
01:39:14,320 --> 01:39:18,160
Speaker 2: serious repair jobs on the album. So I said, okay,

1741
01:39:18,200 --> 01:39:20,600
Speaker 2: And I had just built my first home studio. I

1742
01:39:20,600 --> 01:39:24,320
Speaker 2: had a sixteen track studio in an area called Shepherd's Bush,

1743
01:39:24,600 --> 01:39:27,120
Speaker 2: and I said, try out my studio. You haven't tried

1744
01:39:27,120 --> 01:39:29,760
Speaker 2: every studio in town because you haven't tried this one.

1745
01:39:30,439 --> 01:39:33,400
Speaker 2: So I do the first mix of Diamond Dogs with him,

1746
01:39:34,080 --> 01:39:37,080
Speaker 2: and he takes it home and phones me up at

1747
01:39:37,080 --> 01:39:39,840
Speaker 2: like five in the morning and says he thought I

1748
01:39:39,880 --> 01:39:42,559
Speaker 2: stayed up all night like he did, and he said,

1749
01:39:42,680 --> 01:39:45,679
Speaker 2: it sounds fantastic. Let's finish the album in your studio.

1750
01:39:46,040 --> 01:39:48,479
Speaker 2: So that's how he got back together again after all

1751
01:39:48,520 --> 01:39:49,040
Speaker 2: those years.

1752
01:39:50,680 --> 01:39:54,960
Speaker 1: Okay, Diamond Dogs, he's finally playing arenas in America. Rebel

1753
01:39:55,040 --> 01:40:01,080
Speaker 1: Rebel is a huge hit. But the critics start to him.

1754
01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:05,000
Speaker 1: They say, this is a little obvious. He's giving the

1755
01:40:05,040 --> 01:40:10,280
Speaker 1: people what they want. This comes a complete left turn

1756
01:40:10,400 --> 01:40:13,960
Speaker 1: with young Americans. Tell us how that happens.

1757
01:40:16,400 --> 01:40:22,680
Speaker 2: Oh, okay, He's always start with a phone call from him,

1758
01:40:23,040 --> 01:40:26,559
Speaker 2: and after not hearing from him for ages, and he

1759
01:40:26,680 --> 01:40:34,559
Speaker 2: said that he's down in Philadelphia at Sigma Studios and

1760
01:40:34,640 --> 01:40:37,400
Speaker 2: they just started working on a new album. He goes,

1761
01:40:37,439 --> 01:40:39,960
Speaker 2: I want to make a soul album. He goes, but not,

1762
01:40:40,080 --> 01:40:41,840
Speaker 2: you know, it's not going to be like a sol album.

1763
01:40:41,880 --> 01:40:44,000
Speaker 2: It's going to be David Bowie singing soul. You know.

1764
01:40:44,240 --> 01:40:47,360
Speaker 2: I said, Okay, I'm game. You know, we knew, we

1765
01:40:47,560 --> 01:40:50,479
Speaker 2: knew our backgrounds. We knew I would fit in, and

1766
01:40:51,160 --> 01:40:53,920
Speaker 2: he knew I would fit in. And about two days later,

1767
01:40:53,960 --> 01:40:57,559
Speaker 2: I'm flying to Philadelphia from London and I had to

1768
01:40:57,600 --> 01:40:59,719
Speaker 2: show up for work. I just couldn't go to the hotel,

1769
01:41:00,200 --> 01:41:03,120
Speaker 2: not go straight to the hotel. The limo driver said,

1770
01:41:03,160 --> 01:41:06,360
Speaker 2: I have instructions to take you directly to the studio

1771
01:41:06,760 --> 01:41:11,120
Speaker 2: Sigma Studios in Philly. So I walk in there and

1772
01:41:11,160 --> 01:41:15,479
Speaker 2: it's about eleven at night, midnight something like that, and

1773
01:41:15,600 --> 01:41:19,759
Speaker 2: he's flying high, you know, little Peruvian marching powder was involved.

1774
01:41:20,280 --> 01:41:25,040
Speaker 2: And then the band is Carlos Alomar uh Andy Duncan,

1775
01:41:25,439 --> 01:41:28,479
Speaker 2: Andy Newmark on drums from Sly and the Family Stone,

1776
01:41:28,720 --> 01:41:30,720
Speaker 2: who I was supposed. I was surprised to find out

1777
01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:33,040
Speaker 2: he was a white guy because he's in the funkiest

1778
01:41:33,080 --> 01:41:36,599
Speaker 2: band on earth at that time. And the bass player

1779
01:41:36,800 --> 01:41:40,960
Speaker 2: was a bass player from Heaven, Willie Weeks, who played

1780
01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:46,320
Speaker 2: with Donny Hathaway and I had a band of Willie Weeks.

1781
01:41:46,760 --> 01:41:49,360
Speaker 2: He played on a song called Everything Is Everything where

1782
01:41:49,400 --> 01:41:52,439
Speaker 2: Willy Willy Willie Weeks takes about a five minute bass

1783
01:41:52,439 --> 01:41:56,920
Speaker 2: solo on that. So I said, Willy, I love you man,

1784
01:41:57,120 --> 01:42:00,400
Speaker 2: and he was like really playing it Dan. He wasn't smarting,

1785
01:42:00,479 --> 01:42:03,240
Speaker 2: he wasn't going out. He had this like kind of

1786
01:42:03,280 --> 01:42:08,160
Speaker 2: repressive personality at the time. So we started working immediately

1787
01:42:08,200 --> 01:42:12,240
Speaker 2: on the title track Young Americans. We start working on

1788
01:42:12,320 --> 01:42:16,040
Speaker 2: that and Willie's playing really simple. He's playing like one

1789
01:42:16,240 --> 01:42:20,799
Speaker 2: in five boom boo boom boo, boom boo, boom boo boom,

1790
01:42:20,800 --> 01:42:23,280
Speaker 2: like that, and I'm here, I know he can shred,

1791
01:42:23,960 --> 01:42:27,800
Speaker 2: so we let that go. It was too late, I think.

1792
01:42:28,120 --> 01:42:30,080
Speaker 2: The next day we wanted to move on to another

1793
01:42:30,160 --> 01:42:34,479
Speaker 2: song and he continues to to play this pedestrian these

1794
01:42:34,520 --> 01:42:38,400
Speaker 2: pedestrian bass parts, and he said, I said, Willie, I

1795
01:42:38,479 --> 01:42:41,479
Speaker 2: heard you play everything is everything on the Donnie Hathaway album.

1796
01:42:41,720 --> 01:42:43,599
Speaker 2: He said, why aren't you playing that way for us?

1797
01:42:44,120 --> 01:42:46,200
Speaker 2: And he just crossed his arms and he said, because

1798
01:42:46,240 --> 01:42:51,559
Speaker 2: you didn't ask me to. I said, well, I'm asking

1799
01:42:51,600 --> 01:42:55,479
Speaker 2: you you. I'm asking you now. I said, you can shred, man,

1800
01:42:55,520 --> 01:42:57,519
Speaker 2: you can. So you could hear the difference on the

1801
01:42:57,720 --> 01:43:00,120
Speaker 2: rest of the tracks on the album. He starts bouncing

1802
01:43:00,160 --> 01:43:03,320
Speaker 2: around and he's taken all kinds of you know, playing

1803
01:43:03,360 --> 01:43:06,400
Speaker 2: all kinds of tricky stuff. Oh, he's a genius and

1804
01:43:06,439 --> 01:43:10,320
Speaker 2: genius bass player. I so much enjoyed working with him.

1805
01:43:10,640 --> 01:43:13,160
Speaker 2: And we were a mixed, racially mixed band too, which

1806
01:43:13,200 --> 01:43:16,519
Speaker 2: worked perfectly. You know, at first we were going to

1807
01:43:16,600 --> 01:43:19,920
Speaker 2: get those guys if they get gambling huff maybe who

1808
01:43:20,080 --> 01:43:23,280
Speaker 2: well they owned that. They that was their studio which

1809
01:43:23,479 --> 01:43:25,240
Speaker 2: they did a lot of R and B stuff in there,

1810
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:30,559
Speaker 2: and David approached them first, I think, and they said,

1811
01:43:30,560 --> 01:43:33,719
Speaker 2: we don't want no blue eyed white boy stealing our music.

1812
01:43:34,080 --> 01:43:36,519
Speaker 2: They told him that it was an insult, you know.

1813
01:43:37,320 --> 01:43:39,960
Speaker 2: So when he hired the studio anyway, he brought in

1814
01:43:40,000 --> 01:43:42,639
Speaker 2: his own band, and it was we were a mixed band.

1815
01:43:42,680 --> 01:43:45,040
Speaker 2: That's the way you know, music should be played. You know,

1816
01:43:45,840 --> 01:43:48,320
Speaker 2: you don't have to be a certain race to place

1817
01:43:48,400 --> 01:43:51,240
Speaker 2: any kind of music. It's it's a different world now,

1818
01:43:51,240 --> 01:43:53,799
Speaker 2: and it was then too well, it was just turning.

1819
01:43:53,800 --> 01:43:56,280
Speaker 2: It was changing. Times were changing then.

1820
01:43:56,880 --> 01:43:59,200
Speaker 1: So how does John Lennon get involved?

1821
01:44:00,120 --> 01:44:04,160
Speaker 2: That was freaking, That was really freaking. This is a

1822
01:44:04,240 --> 01:44:06,679
Speaker 2: kind of not I could I could make a short

1823
01:44:06,680 --> 01:44:10,360
Speaker 2: story out of it. So we move operations. We do

1824
01:44:10,439 --> 01:44:14,040
Speaker 2: young Americans, We do as mess as we can in Philadelphia,

1825
01:44:14,439 --> 01:44:17,679
Speaker 2: and then we move operations to New York. He puts

1826
01:44:17,720 --> 01:44:21,880
Speaker 2: me up into like Sheraton Hotel Pierre or something like that,

1827
01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:24,640
Speaker 2: really expensive hotel and all that he had. He was

1828
01:44:24,680 --> 01:44:28,400
Speaker 2: just throwing money away in those days. And he hires

1829
01:44:28,439 --> 01:44:32,680
Speaker 2: a studio there and to do some further work in

1830
01:44:32,760 --> 01:44:36,680
Speaker 2: that studio. So we cut a couple of tracks there.

1831
01:44:36,680 --> 01:44:39,840
Speaker 2: We didn't cut fame, but one night he left the

1832
01:44:39,880 --> 01:44:42,120
Speaker 2: studio early. He says I'm going to go back to

1833
01:44:42,160 --> 01:44:45,240
Speaker 2: my suite. He was in a Hotel Pierre, and he said,

1834
01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:48,479
Speaker 2: Lenin is coming by tonight. He goes, I'm a bit

1835
01:44:48,600 --> 01:44:50,960
Speaker 2: I'm a bit frightened of him, a bit scared of him.

1836
01:44:51,000 --> 01:44:54,040
Speaker 2: He goes, would you mind coming after work, after you

1837
01:44:54,040 --> 01:44:56,840
Speaker 2: finish all your tidying ups and all that, would you

1838
01:44:56,880 --> 01:45:00,479
Speaker 2: mind coming over and kind of buffer the meeting? Exactly

1839
01:45:00,520 --> 01:45:02,360
Speaker 2: the word he used to buffer the meeting. I said,

1840
01:45:03,360 --> 01:45:04,960
Speaker 2: I would love to meet John Lennon.

1841
01:45:06,320 --> 01:45:07,280
Speaker 1: I will be there.

1842
01:45:09,200 --> 01:45:12,639
Speaker 2: So I finished. At about midnight, Limo takes me over

1843
01:45:12,680 --> 01:45:15,799
Speaker 2: to the Hotel Pierre. I go up to David's sweet

1844
01:45:16,479 --> 01:45:19,240
Speaker 2: and I knock on the door a lot and nobody answers.

1845
01:45:19,280 --> 01:45:21,280
Speaker 2: But I hear a lot of scuffling behind the door,

1846
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:26,240
Speaker 2: and finally I don't know who answered, but I think

1847
01:45:26,280 --> 01:45:29,439
Speaker 2: it was Neil Aspinall, one of the minders of the Beatles.

1848
01:45:29,479 --> 01:45:33,400
Speaker 2: It was Neil Aspinall, and I said, it's Tony, Tony WISCONTI.

1849
01:45:33,680 --> 01:45:36,360
Speaker 2: David asked me to come by tonight. He goes, yeah, okay,

1850
01:45:36,400 --> 01:45:38,240
Speaker 2: we were just a bit worried you might be the police.

1851
01:45:38,960 --> 01:45:41,360
Speaker 2: And I go, oh, well, no, it's me. So he

1852
01:45:41,439 --> 01:45:44,519
Speaker 2: invited me in and I walk into the main room

1853
01:45:44,640 --> 01:45:48,040
Speaker 2: and I saw a sight I'll never forget. On the

1854
01:45:48,080 --> 01:45:53,760
Speaker 2: floor was David and a beautiful Hispanic woman, really really beautiful,

1855
01:45:54,200 --> 01:45:57,480
Speaker 2: and between them there was like a mountain of cocaine.

1856
01:45:58,040 --> 01:46:02,280
Speaker 2: It was mount everst but about six inches high, you know,

1857
01:46:03,280 --> 01:46:07,000
Speaker 2: and with ski slopes, it was like the real deal.

1858
01:46:07,560 --> 01:46:11,479
Speaker 2: And on the couch is my idol, John Lennon. You know,

1859
01:46:12,000 --> 01:46:14,920
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it. And I go hello, John, and

1860
01:46:14,960 --> 01:46:17,240
Speaker 2: he goes hello. And next to him was this Asian

1861
01:46:17,320 --> 01:46:22,040
Speaker 2: girl who I found out was Maypang and she's with

1862
01:46:22,160 --> 01:46:25,599
Speaker 2: sitting with him. And then there's Neil aspinall sitting next

1863
01:46:25,600 --> 01:46:29,480
Speaker 2: to John. And I snuggle into between Neil and John

1864
01:46:29,680 --> 01:46:33,320
Speaker 2: and I'm watching David and the girl chopping out lines

1865
01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:36,760
Speaker 2: and John and I said to John, I said, do

1866
01:46:36,760 --> 01:46:39,600
Speaker 2: you mind if I ask you some Beatles questions? You

1867
01:46:39,640 --> 01:46:42,400
Speaker 2: know like? He goes, no, go right ahead, you know,

1868
01:46:42,680 --> 01:46:46,080
Speaker 2: ask me anything you like. And I go, okay, that

1869
01:46:46,320 --> 01:46:50,000
Speaker 2: first chord on a hard day's night, What what how

1870
01:46:50,040 --> 01:46:53,120
Speaker 2: do you play that chord? He goes, well, I know

1871
01:46:53,200 --> 01:46:56,200
Speaker 2: what I played. You know, George played the other guitar.

1872
01:46:56,320 --> 01:46:58,240
Speaker 2: I played this chord and he picks up a guitar

1873
01:46:58,560 --> 01:47:01,280
Speaker 2: and he goes and I think George played this chord,

1874
01:47:01,360 --> 01:47:04,160
Speaker 2: and what you hear is these two chords together. He says,

1875
01:47:04,160 --> 01:47:07,120
Speaker 2: it's a good clash. It works, It really works. They go, oh, yeah,

1876
01:47:07,160 --> 01:47:10,519
Speaker 2: it works very much. And then I got into like

1877
01:47:10,720 --> 01:47:14,360
Speaker 2: lyrics and I had him for a good hour. And

1878
01:47:14,400 --> 01:47:16,920
Speaker 2: then he's like looking over at David. You know, now

1879
01:47:17,040 --> 01:47:20,400
Speaker 2: David's being absolutely rude. He's not even he's so frightened

1880
01:47:20,400 --> 01:47:23,040
Speaker 2: of John. He's not even looking up at John. He's

1881
01:47:23,080 --> 01:47:26,120
Speaker 2: just in with this girl. They're chopping lines away. John

1882
01:47:26,160 --> 01:47:30,880
Speaker 2: had a few. And then David picks up a pad,

1883
01:47:30,960 --> 01:47:34,280
Speaker 2: a sketch pad, and he's got some charcoal pencils or

1884
01:47:34,320 --> 01:47:36,360
Speaker 2: something like that, and he starts, you know, he's a

1885
01:47:36,360 --> 01:47:38,760
Speaker 2: great David was a great artist, and so is John.

1886
01:47:39,240 --> 01:47:42,719
Speaker 2: So David starts sketching a lenin of a portrait of John,

1887
01:47:42,840 --> 01:47:46,600
Speaker 2: like a caricature, and John says, hey, give us a

1888
01:47:46,600 --> 01:47:49,200
Speaker 2: piece of paper and give me a pencil, and John

1889
01:47:50,000 --> 01:47:51,960
Speaker 2: puts it on like a tea tray or something like that,

1890
01:47:52,040 --> 01:47:55,040
Speaker 2: and he starts doing David. And from this point onwards,

1891
01:47:55,080 --> 01:47:58,960
Speaker 2: it broke the ice that I couldn't buffer anything. The

1892
01:47:59,360 --> 01:48:01,880
Speaker 2: drawing of each was very funny, and they picked it

1893
01:48:01,960 --> 01:48:04,200
Speaker 2: up and they showed each other the drawings and have

1894
01:48:04,240 --> 01:48:06,479
Speaker 2: a good laugh, and they'd start a few and then

1895
01:48:06,560 --> 01:48:10,680
Speaker 2: eventually David and John started talking to each other. And

1896
01:48:10,720 --> 01:48:13,599
Speaker 2: then like I realized that the hour was getting really

1897
01:48:13,640 --> 01:48:18,080
Speaker 2: really late. It was getting to about six pm, seven pm,

1898
01:48:18,520 --> 01:48:22,280
Speaker 2: and I said, you know, I got to go. It's

1899
01:48:22,360 --> 01:48:24,280
Speaker 2: like really late. I had a hard, long day. And

1900
01:48:24,640 --> 01:48:27,640
Speaker 2: John said yeah. He says, we can't go until the

1901
01:48:27,680 --> 01:48:31,519
Speaker 2: sun rises, and I go, why is that? He goes, well,

1902
01:48:31,560 --> 01:48:34,559
Speaker 2: he says, you know, I was busted, and I don't

1903
01:48:34,600 --> 01:48:36,720
Speaker 2: want to I want to stay here. I feel safe here,

1904
01:48:37,120 --> 01:48:39,120
Speaker 2: and I feel it'd be easier if I leave in

1905
01:48:39,160 --> 01:48:41,479
Speaker 2: the daylight. They'll think I'm just coming out of a

1906
01:48:41,479 --> 01:48:44,559
Speaker 2: hotel instead of staying up all night. If I leave now,

1907
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:47,320
Speaker 2: I'll look suspicious and all that. So it was horrible

1908
01:48:47,360 --> 01:48:50,080
Speaker 2: to hear him say that. You know, from you know,

1909
01:48:50,160 --> 01:48:53,640
Speaker 2: his prior bust. He was a victim. He could have

1910
01:48:53,680 --> 01:48:57,320
Speaker 2: been victimized. So that was really sad that he had

1911
01:48:57,320 --> 01:48:59,920
Speaker 2: to leave under those situations. But at least I had him,

1912
01:49:00,360 --> 01:49:03,720
Speaker 2: I don't know, six seven hours. He was all mine.

1913
01:49:04,160 --> 01:49:06,639
Speaker 1: So how did he end up co writing Fame?

1914
01:49:07,280 --> 01:49:09,439
Speaker 2: Well, that's it. I went back. The idea was I

1915
01:49:09,439 --> 01:49:12,479
Speaker 2: would go back with the master tapes to London to

1916
01:49:12,560 --> 01:49:14,840
Speaker 2: start mixing it. That's where my home base was then,

1917
01:49:15,400 --> 01:49:18,759
Speaker 2: and David would later join me there. So he phones

1918
01:49:18,800 --> 01:49:26,240
Speaker 2: me up about he doesn't phone me, No, he did.

1919
01:49:26,439 --> 01:49:28,880
Speaker 2: He did because there was another incident like this where

1920
01:49:28,920 --> 01:49:31,400
Speaker 2: his assistant phoned me. He phones me up there after

1921
01:49:31,520 --> 01:49:35,720
Speaker 2: three days and he said, Tony, I did something like amazing,

1922
01:49:35,800 --> 01:49:39,080
Speaker 2: but I'm afraid it excluded you. He goes, John and

1923
01:49:39,120 --> 01:49:41,080
Speaker 2: I would just you know. He came back the next

1924
01:49:41,200 --> 01:49:43,640
Speaker 2: night and we started jamming. We had the guitars and

1925
01:49:43,680 --> 01:49:45,840
Speaker 2: all that, and then the next night he goes, we

1926
01:49:45,960 --> 01:49:48,599
Speaker 2: hired a studio and we wrote this song called Fame,

1927
01:49:49,640 --> 01:49:51,960
Speaker 2: and he says, I put it down. It didn't you know.

1928
01:49:52,000 --> 01:49:54,080
Speaker 2: We hired a drummer in New York. It wasn't even

1929
01:49:54,080 --> 01:49:58,000
Speaker 2: the Philly group of musicians anymore. I think they got

1930
01:49:58,000 --> 01:50:00,720
Speaker 2: Carlos because Carlos lived in Manhattan, or he lived in

1931
01:50:00,760 --> 01:50:04,439
Speaker 2: the Bronx, so they got Carlos in there and he said,

1932
01:50:04,479 --> 01:50:06,800
Speaker 2: it sounds really good, but but I wrote it with

1933
01:50:06,920 --> 01:50:09,160
Speaker 2: John and I have to put it on the album.

1934
01:50:09,160 --> 01:50:11,640
Speaker 2: I have to take something off young Americans put it

1935
01:50:11,680 --> 01:50:15,519
Speaker 2: on the album, I said, I said, David, I would

1936
01:50:15,560 --> 01:50:19,800
Speaker 2: have bought my own ticket on the concord if you

1937
01:50:19,840 --> 01:50:21,679
Speaker 2: had told I would have been there in five hours,

1938
01:50:21,840 --> 01:50:25,960
Speaker 2: you know. He says, well, it's done, and we did it.

1939
01:50:26,000 --> 01:50:28,360
Speaker 2: And he said, then while we were there, I felt

1940
01:50:28,360 --> 01:50:31,559
Speaker 2: we had to record another. We had to record one

1941
01:50:31,560 --> 01:50:34,240
Speaker 2: of John's songs. So we did Across the Universe. And

1942
01:50:34,320 --> 01:50:36,679
Speaker 2: I later met up with John Lennon at some event

1943
01:50:36,760 --> 01:50:40,240
Speaker 2: or something and and we were talking about then he goes, because, yeah,

1944
01:50:40,280 --> 01:50:42,679
Speaker 2: because it was good. It was fun recording fame. He goes,

1945
01:50:42,840 --> 01:50:46,519
Speaker 2: but Across the Universe was never one of my favorite songs.

1946
01:50:47,680 --> 01:50:49,639
Speaker 2: He says. It was a drag doing that one. You're

1947
01:50:49,640 --> 01:50:51,479
Speaker 2: singing that one, he goes, But it turned out okay,

1948
01:50:51,560 --> 01:50:53,800
Speaker 2: you know, very gregarious, very nice.

1949
01:50:54,040 --> 01:50:55,559
Speaker 1: Okay, those two are on the album. Did you have

1950
01:50:55,640 --> 01:50:57,000
Speaker 1: to take stuff off the album?

1951
01:50:57,720 --> 01:51:00,639
Speaker 2: Sure? Oh my god, it took They took off two songs.

1952
01:51:00,640 --> 01:51:03,599
Speaker 2: Somebody up there Likes Me was taken off the album,

1953
01:51:04,080 --> 01:51:08,280
Speaker 2: and let It Be Me, which was a funky seven

1954
01:51:08,320 --> 01:51:12,240
Speaker 2: minute ballad which later when they reissued box sets, you

1955
01:51:12,360 --> 01:51:14,720
Speaker 2: now can hear those songs like let It Be Me

1956
01:51:15,040 --> 01:51:17,800
Speaker 2: is like a classic, like sounds like a Ray chall song.

1957
01:51:18,360 --> 01:51:21,920
Speaker 2: It's very slow and dirgy, and I wrote my best

1958
01:51:22,040 --> 01:51:26,200
Speaker 2: Quincy Jones arrangement for it as well. But you can

1959
01:51:26,240 --> 01:51:27,639
Speaker 2: now hear all those tracks.

1960
01:51:27,640 --> 01:51:29,680
Speaker 1: But oh, okay, but I have to I hate to

1961
01:51:29,720 --> 01:51:32,200
Speaker 1: correct you. You were there. But Somebody Up There Likes

1962
01:51:32,240 --> 01:51:34,760
Speaker 1: Me is the opening track on the album on the

1963
01:51:34,840 --> 01:51:35,519
Speaker 1: second side.

1964
01:51:36,000 --> 01:51:38,360
Speaker 2: Okay, you're absolutely right, so it's another track.

1965
01:51:38,479 --> 01:51:41,760
Speaker 1: The only reason I mentioned that is that's my favorite

1966
01:51:41,760 --> 01:51:46,080
Speaker 1: song on the album. Staying on the album, you ultimately

1967
01:51:46,160 --> 01:51:49,840
Speaker 1: hear and mix Fame, it becomes a gigantic kit. Did

1968
01:51:49,880 --> 01:51:51,280
Speaker 1: you expect that to be a hit?

1969
01:51:52,320 --> 01:51:55,240
Speaker 2: I I it likes Space Oddity. I knew it was

1970
01:51:55,280 --> 01:51:57,800
Speaker 2: a hit and I on the but you know, I

1971
01:51:57,840 --> 01:52:00,320
Speaker 2: could have done Space Oddity, like I said, you know,

1972
01:52:00,439 --> 01:52:02,519
Speaker 2: but I think Gus did a great job. I could

1973
01:52:02,560 --> 01:52:07,720
Speaker 2: have recorded Fame. It's like really simple and I don't know.

1974
01:52:07,760 --> 01:52:11,360
Speaker 1: Well, the only thing about that album is Fame is

1975
01:52:11,400 --> 01:52:15,360
Speaker 1: not one of my favorites young Americans. Okay, but my

1976
01:52:15,439 --> 01:52:18,440
Speaker 1: two favorites are Somebody up There Likes Me in Fascination.

1977
01:52:19,080 --> 01:52:20,080
Speaker 2: Those two they're great.

1978
01:52:20,360 --> 01:52:24,200
Speaker 1: Never burnout on. Yeah, so and how did this is

1979
01:52:24,240 --> 01:52:29,040
Speaker 1: before Luther Vandrose is Luther Van Rose? I know, how

1980
01:52:29,080 --> 01:52:31,360
Speaker 1: does he end up? He's just in Philadelphia and he

1981
01:52:31,439 --> 01:52:33,040
Speaker 1: shows up. How does he get involved?

1982
01:52:34,120 --> 01:52:37,400
Speaker 2: Uh? Carlos and Robin went to high school with Luther.

1983
01:52:38,439 --> 01:52:41,479
Speaker 2: That's how he showed up. And they said, they said,

1984
01:52:41,520 --> 01:52:44,559
Speaker 2: you're gonna like Luther because they were looking for backup vocalists.

1985
01:52:44,840 --> 01:52:48,960
Speaker 2: Robin was already in. She was going to sing backing vocals.

1986
01:52:49,280 --> 01:52:52,880
Speaker 2: Ava Cherry, who was David's mistress at the time, was

1987
01:52:52,920 --> 01:52:55,519
Speaker 2: going to sing backing vocals. But we needed we needed

1988
01:52:55,600 --> 01:52:59,519
Speaker 2: more people. And so Luther comes in one day like

1989
01:52:59,520 --> 01:53:03,920
Speaker 2: like wide eyed, really innocent. You know, this tall, lovely

1990
01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:06,800
Speaker 2: man walks in like looking around. I know he had

1991
01:53:06,840 --> 01:53:09,360
Speaker 2: some experience in the studio, but this is big time,

1992
01:53:09,439 --> 01:53:13,720
Speaker 2: big star and all that. And he takes over as

1993
01:53:13,840 --> 01:53:17,280
Speaker 2: choir master almost immediately. When he hears how sluggish we

1994
01:53:17,280 --> 01:53:20,720
Speaker 2: were writing backing vocals, he goes, how about trying to this?

1995
01:53:21,120 --> 01:53:24,040
Speaker 2: How about trying this? Because young Americans didn't have the hook,

1996
01:53:24,400 --> 01:53:27,479
Speaker 2: He wrote the hook. So David wrote that whole song,

1997
01:53:27,520 --> 01:53:30,240
Speaker 2: but there was no chorus. There was just a musical interlude,

1998
01:53:30,640 --> 01:53:34,280
Speaker 2: and Luther could sing he's singing over he goes young Americans,

1999
01:53:34,360 --> 01:53:38,160
Speaker 2: young Americans, She got the young American. That was Luther's input,

2000
01:53:38,520 --> 01:53:43,720
Speaker 2: and David was gobsmacked. That would not have been a

2001
01:53:43,760 --> 01:53:46,680
Speaker 2: single if Luther did not come up with that. So

2002
01:53:46,880 --> 01:53:51,639
Speaker 2: Fascination was Luther's song called funky Music. So Luther said,

2003
01:53:51,680 --> 01:53:53,600
Speaker 2: I've got David said, let me hear your music. So

2004
01:53:53,720 --> 01:53:56,759
Speaker 2: Luther played him funky Music and he goes, how about?

2005
01:53:57,000 --> 01:53:58,720
Speaker 2: He said, I love the whole song, and I love

2006
01:53:58,800 --> 01:54:00,800
Speaker 2: most of the lyrics, but would you allow me to

2007
01:54:00,800 --> 01:54:04,080
Speaker 2: rewrite a few things about it. Luther couldn't believe his love,

2008
01:54:04,880 --> 01:54:06,680
Speaker 2: and he said, of course, you ken, David. So he

2009
01:54:06,800 --> 01:54:13,240
Speaker 2: changed Funky Music to Fascination, same melody. And it's so

2010
01:54:13,400 --> 01:54:17,320
Speaker 2: great to see all these young people for first time experiences,

2011
01:54:17,400 --> 01:54:20,960
Speaker 2: and you know, we're all kind of young ourselves, you know.

2012
01:54:21,000 --> 01:54:23,320
Speaker 2: And David making a solo album took a lot of balls,

2013
01:54:23,360 --> 01:54:25,960
Speaker 2: really it did, and especially in Philadelphia, he was on

2014
01:54:26,000 --> 01:54:26,479
Speaker 2: their turf.

2015
01:54:27,479 --> 01:54:31,200
Speaker 1: But then he's the so called thin white duke. And

2016
01:54:31,280 --> 01:54:35,320
Speaker 1: you DeCamp to Berlin. You're really the first act that

2017
01:54:35,480 --> 01:54:42,839
Speaker 1: does that. And you make Low, which is with Eno

2018
01:54:43,200 --> 01:54:45,640
Speaker 1: is considered to be an electronic album. How does that

2019
01:54:45,760 --> 01:54:47,880
Speaker 1: left turn happen and how does it end up? In Berlin?

2020
01:54:48,880 --> 01:54:53,520
Speaker 2: So David went to the Honky Chateau to do an

2021
01:54:53,560 --> 01:54:56,640
Speaker 2: album and he said, I've been Brian and I have

2022
01:54:56,720 --> 01:54:59,840
Speaker 2: been working for a couple of weeks writing some music

2023
01:55:00,120 --> 01:55:02,680
Speaker 2: this album, and he told me the concept. He said,

2024
01:55:02,840 --> 01:55:05,680
Speaker 2: the A side is going to be short songs, kind

2025
01:55:05,680 --> 01:55:08,080
Speaker 2: of brief songs, you know, like it's not going to

2026
01:55:08,120 --> 01:55:10,400
Speaker 2: be my usual set of lyrics. He goes, and the

2027
01:55:10,480 --> 01:55:12,840
Speaker 2: B side is going to be what Brian does best,

2028
01:55:12,880 --> 01:55:16,880
Speaker 2: his ambient music, And he said, would you He says,

2029
01:55:16,920 --> 01:55:19,360
Speaker 2: it's going to be very experimental and we might never

2030
01:55:19,800 --> 01:55:24,080
Speaker 2: release this album. He goes, but he says, so, I

2031
01:55:24,080 --> 01:55:26,040
Speaker 2: can't promise you that it's even going to be released,

2032
01:55:26,040 --> 01:55:29,480
Speaker 2: But are you willing to spend four weeks in France

2033
01:55:29,960 --> 01:55:33,520
Speaker 2: in the Chateau d'arraville with Brian and myself? He goes.

2034
01:55:33,680 --> 01:55:36,560
Speaker 2: I said, are you kidding? Four weeks with you and Brian?

2035
01:55:36,600 --> 01:55:40,200
Speaker 2: That's a holiday, that's a vacation. I said, I'll happily

2036
01:55:40,240 --> 01:55:44,840
Speaker 2: do that. So we sequested ourselves. It was very far

2037
01:55:44,880 --> 01:55:47,080
Speaker 2: from Paris. We really couldn't go out at night and

2038
01:55:47,120 --> 01:55:49,040
Speaker 2: get into trouble you know, we couldn't go to bars

2039
01:55:49,040 --> 01:55:53,280
Speaker 2: and clubs, and we just had you know, food brought in.

2040
01:55:53,360 --> 01:55:55,880
Speaker 2: It was at first the food was very bad. We

2041
01:55:55,880 --> 01:55:58,760
Speaker 2: were getting sick, sick of you know. We Cheese would

2042
01:55:58,760 --> 01:56:01,520
Speaker 2: be left out out and I would eat it and

2043
01:56:01,560 --> 01:56:04,800
Speaker 2: I'd get food poisoning for three days. Things like that

2044
01:56:04,840 --> 01:56:09,240
Speaker 2: were happening the past. Sometimes the power would go off

2045
01:56:09,240 --> 01:56:13,400
Speaker 2: at unexpected times, and the studio wasn't really it didn't

2046
01:56:13,440 --> 01:56:15,880
Speaker 2: have a lot of microphones in outboard gear. It hardly

2047
01:56:15,880 --> 01:56:18,680
Speaker 2: had any outboard gear. But it was perfect for us.

2048
01:56:18,680 --> 01:56:22,840
Speaker 2: It was like making music in a monastery. And it

2049
01:56:22,960 --> 01:56:26,040
Speaker 2: was a great experience to wake up every day, have

2050
01:56:26,120 --> 01:56:28,480
Speaker 2: a bit of breakfast, and go and work all day

2051
01:56:28,520 --> 01:56:32,480
Speaker 2: long on getting the most far out songs sounds we

2052
01:56:32,480 --> 01:56:35,960
Speaker 2: could think of. And Brian was really like working that

2053
01:56:36,040 --> 01:56:41,840
Speaker 2: little beast. That that synthesizer in a briefcase. It's called

2054
01:56:41,880 --> 01:56:46,160
Speaker 2: the EMS SYNTHI and I David bought one. I got one.

2055
01:56:46,200 --> 01:56:48,360
Speaker 2: In the end. It was very complicated to work because

2056
01:56:48,400 --> 01:56:51,960
Speaker 2: it had no keyboard. You really just you really just

2057
01:56:51,960 --> 01:56:54,480
Speaker 2: sat there and twiddl knobs and made it go wowow

2058
01:56:54,640 --> 01:56:57,280
Speaker 2: wow wow. Like things like that and buzz and all that.

2059
01:56:58,440 --> 01:57:02,040
Speaker 2: So with that we went to We did this experimental album.

2060
01:57:02,080 --> 01:57:05,800
Speaker 2: It was completely panned by the critics at first, but

2061
01:57:05,960 --> 01:57:08,840
Speaker 2: fans went even fans were worried about what's this B

2062
01:57:09,080 --> 01:57:12,320
Speaker 2: side business, But in the end it took. It was

2063
01:57:12,320 --> 01:57:15,560
Speaker 2: a long cell, a long hard sell. Ossier rejected it

2064
01:57:15,600 --> 01:57:18,320
Speaker 2: at first, they said, this is not a David Bowie album.

2065
01:57:18,320 --> 01:57:21,280
Speaker 2: There are not enough David Bowie songs on it. And

2066
01:57:21,960 --> 01:57:24,360
Speaker 2: you know they wanted they were always He says, yeah,

2067
01:57:24,400 --> 01:57:26,440
Speaker 2: they want another Ziggy Star us. They've been wanting me

2068
01:57:26,480 --> 01:57:30,040
Speaker 2: to make a Ziggy Star this album for years. So

2069
01:57:30,760 --> 01:57:32,840
Speaker 2: that's how we got stuck into this thing. But then,

2070
01:57:33,520 --> 01:57:36,520
Speaker 2: you know, just to prove everyone that he was doing

2071
01:57:36,520 --> 01:57:38,960
Speaker 2: what he wanted, then it was a clever thing. We

2072
01:57:39,000 --> 01:57:41,960
Speaker 2: moved to Berlin next and do a similar kind of album,

2073
01:57:42,400 --> 01:57:45,680
Speaker 2: except we had a good leadoff song on that album

2074
01:57:45,720 --> 01:57:48,760
Speaker 2: we had didn't have really We had sound and Vision

2075
01:57:48,920 --> 01:57:51,400
Speaker 2: on Low that was kind of a hit, but it

2076
01:57:51,440 --> 01:57:54,800
Speaker 2: wasn't a world wide hit. But Heroes, My God, we

2077
01:57:55,200 --> 01:57:56,600
Speaker 2: hit all the good points on that.

2078
01:57:56,760 --> 01:58:01,400
Speaker 1: Okay, before we get the heroes Breaking Glass. I always

2079
01:58:01,400 --> 01:58:04,680
Speaker 1: thought that was a commentary on Nick Lowe's I Love

2080
01:58:04,760 --> 01:58:08,080
Speaker 1: the Sound of Breaking Glass any insight there.

2081
01:58:14,120 --> 01:58:17,400
Speaker 2: I think it was a reaction to that song. I

2082
01:58:17,440 --> 01:58:19,680
Speaker 2: think David was going to having some fun with that

2083
01:58:19,720 --> 01:58:23,200
Speaker 2: song by calling that be calling, by writing a song

2084
01:58:23,240 --> 01:58:24,120
Speaker 2: called Breaking Glass.

2085
01:58:25,560 --> 01:58:28,600
Speaker 1: And then my favorite song on the album is always

2086
01:58:28,600 --> 01:58:31,120
Speaker 1: Crashing in the Same Car. Any story there?

2087
01:58:31,800 --> 01:58:33,840
Speaker 2: Oh, I love that. I love that song and it

2088
01:58:33,880 --> 01:58:37,120
Speaker 2: really did happen. He was in a hotel. He lived

2089
01:58:37,120 --> 01:58:39,640
Speaker 2: in a hotel in Berlin for a while, I think

2090
01:58:39,640 --> 01:58:42,120
Speaker 2: it was Berlin, and they was in the He kept

2091
01:58:42,160 --> 01:58:44,280
Speaker 2: his car in a sub basement, you know, in a

2092
01:58:44,280 --> 01:58:49,240
Speaker 2: car park, and he he couldn't see very well in

2093
01:58:49,320 --> 01:58:52,360
Speaker 2: dim light, and every time he decided to take the

2094
01:58:52,400 --> 01:58:56,280
Speaker 2: car out, he'd always always have a bumper accident with

2095
01:58:56,480 --> 01:59:00,160
Speaker 2: He'd hit another car in the in the uh in

2096
01:59:00,200 --> 01:59:03,160
Speaker 2: the garage, and he said he was sick and tired

2097
01:59:03,200 --> 01:59:05,440
Speaker 2: of it. He just stopped you. He just started parking

2098
01:59:05,480 --> 01:59:07,760
Speaker 2: the car in the street because he was always crashing.

2099
01:59:08,000 --> 01:59:09,920
Speaker 2: He was always crashing when he got his car out

2100
01:59:09,960 --> 01:59:13,400
Speaker 2: of that garage. But it became a metaphor for always

2101
01:59:13,400 --> 01:59:15,960
Speaker 2: doing the same thing and expecting different results.

2102
01:59:16,000 --> 01:59:21,440
Speaker 1: I guess, okay, you're in Berlin. Berlin, of course is

2103
01:59:21,480 --> 01:59:26,040
Speaker 1: a divided city. Then the wall doesn't fall for another

2104
01:59:26,280 --> 01:59:28,040
Speaker 1: you know, twelve years.

2105
01:59:28,960 --> 01:59:34,240
Speaker 2: What was Berlin like? It was scary, honestly. When we

2106
01:59:34,240 --> 01:59:38,080
Speaker 2: were there, the streets were full of these huge, black

2107
01:59:38,320 --> 01:59:46,320
Speaker 2: armored tanks and I think they belonged to the American Yeah,

2108
01:59:46,360 --> 01:59:48,880
Speaker 2: they belonged to the Americans. They were not your World

2109
01:59:48,920 --> 01:59:51,760
Speaker 2: War two tanks. These were big, but twice as big,

2110
01:59:52,280 --> 01:59:54,720
Speaker 2: all black and with that paint that you can't detect.

2111
01:59:54,760 --> 01:59:56,400
Speaker 2: It didn't shine, you know. It was the first time

2112
01:59:56,480 --> 01:59:59,920
Speaker 2: it was matte paint. And the turrets, the gun start

2113
02:00:00,160 --> 02:00:02,440
Speaker 2: turrets were sticking right in the air and you feel

2114
02:00:02,520 --> 02:00:05,320
Speaker 2: you felt like they could shoot a huge missile out

2115
02:00:05,360 --> 02:00:08,720
Speaker 2: of it at any second if they wanted to. And

2116
02:00:09,400 --> 02:00:11,920
Speaker 2: that was hard. It was hard to see that every day.

2117
02:00:12,000 --> 02:00:14,240
Speaker 2: That was a hard thing to live with. David had

2118
02:00:14,280 --> 02:00:16,400
Speaker 2: been there for six months, but when I saw it,

2119
02:00:16,400 --> 02:00:18,720
Speaker 2: it freaked me out. When I first moved there to

2120
02:00:19,040 --> 02:00:22,760
Speaker 2: make the album. The second thing was which was weird

2121
02:00:22,880 --> 02:00:28,720
Speaker 2: was Checkpoint Charlie because we were in the the British.

2122
02:00:28,960 --> 02:00:32,920
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, we were in the American zone. Yeah,

2123
02:00:33,240 --> 02:00:37,440
Speaker 2: And the checkpoint went into the into East Berlin, where

2124
02:00:37,480 --> 02:00:41,280
Speaker 2: I think the British had headquarters there. I'm not sure.

2125
02:00:41,400 --> 02:00:42,200
Speaker 1: It was it just.

2126
02:00:43,760 --> 02:00:47,160
Speaker 2: Was it just the the communist Germans in that side

2127
02:00:47,200 --> 02:00:49,400
Speaker 2: the Russians. I know, Russians were in there. It was

2128
02:00:49,480 --> 02:00:50,360
Speaker 2: Russian occupied.

2129
02:00:50,680 --> 02:00:53,120
Speaker 1: Well East Germany was tied up with Russia, however you

2130
02:00:53,120 --> 02:00:53,760
Speaker 1: want to put it.

2131
02:00:54,000 --> 02:00:56,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we had a couple of experiences with them

2132
02:00:56,160 --> 02:00:59,720
Speaker 2: as well. So we would go in there and it

2133
02:00:59,720 --> 02:01:02,880
Speaker 2: was a different world. Everything was because it was a

2134
02:01:02,880 --> 02:01:06,720
Speaker 2: communist country. All their billboards had slogans on them, but

2135
02:01:06,760 --> 02:01:11,520
Speaker 2: it didn't advertise like a BMW car or Camel's cigarettes

2136
02:01:11,600 --> 02:01:14,680
Speaker 2: something like that. It was slogans like they like eat

2137
02:01:14,840 --> 02:01:17,480
Speaker 2: fish and they would have a big they would have

2138
02:01:17,520 --> 02:01:20,800
Speaker 2: a big picture of a fish and drink milk and

2139
02:01:20,800 --> 02:01:22,960
Speaker 2: they have a big glass of milk and somebody with

2140
02:01:23,120 --> 02:01:25,360
Speaker 2: a mustache, you know, a milk mustache on their face.

2141
02:01:25,640 --> 02:01:28,760
Speaker 2: But they couldn't sell products like they were driving around

2142
02:01:28,800 --> 02:01:34,680
Speaker 2: these little Russian cars, cars called Vatborg's and scoters. The

2143
02:01:35,200 --> 02:01:38,520
Speaker 2: cars came from Russia. Whereas on this decide the west

2144
02:01:38,560 --> 02:01:41,800
Speaker 2: side of Berlin people were driving Mercedes, Benzes and you know,

2145
02:01:41,880 --> 02:01:45,640
Speaker 2: all the German cars. So that was freaky to go

2146
02:01:45,720 --> 02:01:49,800
Speaker 2: into westo East Berlin and then when you came back

2147
02:01:50,680 --> 02:01:54,360
Speaker 2: your car was searched by Russian Russian guards and they'd

2148
02:01:54,400 --> 02:01:57,320
Speaker 2: put a panel a mirror under your car to make

2149
02:01:57,360 --> 02:02:01,160
Speaker 2: sure you weren't smuggling anyone's, any peaceeople who wanted to escape,

2150
02:02:02,160 --> 02:02:05,280
Speaker 2: and they had people who made special shoes and clamps.

2151
02:02:05,320 --> 02:02:09,400
Speaker 2: They could actually hold themselves underneath the car while they

2152
02:02:09,480 --> 02:02:11,960
Speaker 2: drove across the bridge into West Berlin, and then they

2153
02:02:12,280 --> 02:02:16,360
Speaker 2: released themselves. So people were actually smuggling bodies that way

2154
02:02:16,480 --> 02:02:20,400
Speaker 2: into West Berlin. And then then when they went through

2155
02:02:20,480 --> 02:02:25,160
Speaker 2: your stuff at customs, you'd, you know, they just throw

2156
02:02:25,240 --> 02:02:27,800
Speaker 2: everything out on the counter and everything you had, anything

2157
02:02:27,840 --> 02:02:31,000
Speaker 2: in your knapsack or anything like that. And then they

2158
02:02:31,480 --> 02:02:33,840
Speaker 2: when we went through the first time, Iggy Pop had

2159
02:02:33,920 --> 02:02:37,760
Speaker 2: platinum h blonde hair, and David's passport had him with

2160
02:02:37,840 --> 02:02:41,080
Speaker 2: the curly perm. He had his hair, had a PERM

2161
02:02:41,120 --> 02:02:43,680
Speaker 2: and he looked very weird. Now both of them looked different,

2162
02:02:43,760 --> 02:02:46,520
Speaker 2: completely different. But they looked at the passports and they

2163
02:02:46,560 --> 02:02:50,120
Speaker 2: looked at Iggy's passport had the actual blonde hair and

2164
02:02:50,240 --> 02:02:53,120
Speaker 2: now Iggy had dark hair. David had the PERM but

2165
02:02:53,240 --> 02:02:55,920
Speaker 2: now he had darker hair. So they would hold the

2166
02:02:55,960 --> 02:02:58,680
Speaker 2: passports up in the air and they'd yell, hey, Fritz

2167
02:02:58,800 --> 02:03:01,560
Speaker 2: come here, they get another god to come over, and

2168
02:03:01,720 --> 02:03:05,120
Speaker 2: suddenly all the gods would gather around the passports and

2169
02:03:05,400 --> 02:03:09,040
Speaker 2: die laughing. They'd be laughing in our faces, you know.

2170
02:03:09,160 --> 02:03:10,680
Speaker 2: Then they give that they have a good laugh, and

2171
02:03:10,720 --> 02:03:12,640
Speaker 2: then they gave the passports back and we could get

2172
02:03:12,680 --> 02:03:16,120
Speaker 2: back into West Berlin. But things like that have the

2173
02:03:16,160 --> 02:03:19,280
Speaker 2: weirdest things happened every day. Another one was we're making

2174
02:03:19,360 --> 02:03:22,880
Speaker 2: heroes in the studio which faced the Berlin Wall, so

2175
02:03:23,040 --> 02:03:26,240
Speaker 2: we're looking at East Berlin from our studio in West Berlin,

2176
02:03:26,760 --> 02:03:32,160
Speaker 2: and there was a big kind of like a castle,

2177
02:03:32,200 --> 02:03:34,640
Speaker 2: you know, there was a kind of a big turret.

2178
02:03:34,640 --> 02:03:36,640
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe you'd call it a turret. And

2179
02:03:36,880 --> 02:03:40,480
Speaker 2: in there every day there was a Russian god watching

2180
02:03:40,640 --> 02:03:44,280
Speaker 2: us with big binoculars. He was watching us make records

2181
02:03:45,120 --> 02:03:47,360
Speaker 2: and they would have you know, and we could see

2182
02:03:47,440 --> 02:03:50,080
Speaker 2: from our side. They were so close. We could see

2183
02:03:50,120 --> 02:03:54,240
Speaker 2: the red star on his fuzzy gray helmet that he had,

2184
02:03:54,600 --> 02:03:58,560
Speaker 2: and he's wearing that big Russian overcoat for like Siberian winters,

2185
02:03:59,160 --> 02:04:02,760
Speaker 2: and he's watching us. So we asked our engineer, who

2186
02:04:02,880 --> 02:04:05,320
Speaker 2: is a lovely man, we said, doesn't this freak you out?

2187
02:04:05,360 --> 02:04:07,560
Speaker 2: With Russian gods like looking at every day. It's freaking

2188
02:04:07,680 --> 02:04:10,280
Speaker 2: us out. He goes, nah, doesn't, doesn't freak me out.

2189
02:04:10,680 --> 02:04:13,680
Speaker 2: And he took the overhead light that was hanging from

2190
02:04:13,720 --> 02:04:16,160
Speaker 2: a wire and he aimed it right at the Russian

2191
02:04:16,200 --> 02:04:18,880
Speaker 2: God and he started sticking his tongue out and sticking

2192
02:04:18,960 --> 02:04:22,440
Speaker 2: up the middle finger. That's the Russian God. So David

2193
02:04:22,520 --> 02:04:25,600
Speaker 2: and I dove underneath the recording console. Who he said,

2194
02:04:26,080 --> 02:04:30,640
Speaker 2: don't fucking do that, you know, don't do it. And

2195
02:04:30,960 --> 02:04:33,240
Speaker 2: he said, ah, it's okay. They can't shoot us. If

2196
02:04:33,320 --> 02:04:35,800
Speaker 2: you know, if they did, it would be World War three.

2197
02:04:36,160 --> 02:04:39,920
Speaker 2: You couldn't exchange fire. If anything like that happened to

2198
02:04:40,000 --> 02:04:43,240
Speaker 2: Checkpoint Charlie, we would have been at war again in

2199
02:04:43,360 --> 02:04:48,080
Speaker 2: the seventies. So they could restrain themselves. And the other

2200
02:04:48,160 --> 02:04:51,080
Speaker 2: funny thing was David one night went by the wall

2201
02:04:51,160 --> 02:04:54,520
Speaker 2: on the west side West Berlinside. He was dating a

2202
02:04:54,640 --> 02:04:57,320
Speaker 2: girl and he just decided he dropped her off and

2203
02:04:57,400 --> 02:05:00,800
Speaker 2: he took his car right by the wall and the

2204
02:05:00,840 --> 02:05:03,240
Speaker 2: other side of where all the Russians are, and he

2205
02:05:03,600 --> 02:05:06,400
Speaker 2: lights up a cigarette and somebody taps on his window.

2206
02:05:07,000 --> 02:05:10,120
Speaker 2: It was a Red Guard from the from East Berlin.

2207
02:05:11,760 --> 02:05:14,920
Speaker 2: David found out there were other tunnels that nobody knew about.

2208
02:05:15,280 --> 02:05:17,640
Speaker 2: The Red Guard came into the west just for a

2209
02:05:17,720 --> 02:05:20,520
Speaker 2: little stroll. This is about three in the morning, and

2210
02:05:20,600 --> 02:05:23,480
Speaker 2: he said, do you have a light? He ysked David

2211
02:05:23,560 --> 02:05:28,760
Speaker 2: for a light, freaked David out. He soon got out

2212
02:05:28,800 --> 02:05:30,960
Speaker 2: of there. He never went back to that spot again.

2213
02:05:32,120 --> 02:05:36,880
Speaker 1: And so next comes Heroes, Yeah, which ultimately is a

2214
02:05:37,040 --> 02:05:40,280
Speaker 1: success then, but becomes legendary over the decades.

2215
02:05:41,600 --> 02:05:44,520
Speaker 2: Right, Well, that was taking Berlin for a place to

2216
02:05:44,600 --> 02:05:46,800
Speaker 2: live that was really good. He and Niggy had been

2217
02:05:46,840 --> 02:05:49,000
Speaker 2: living there for at least almost a good part of

2218
02:05:49,040 --> 02:05:51,640
Speaker 2: a year and they were used to this going back

2219
02:05:51,680 --> 02:05:54,680
Speaker 2: and forth. They knew all the local drink they knew

2220
02:05:54,680 --> 02:05:58,640
Speaker 2: all the local drinking spots, and we went out there.

2221
02:05:58,720 --> 02:06:02,080
Speaker 2: They would often dress with as working men, so they all,

2222
02:06:02,280 --> 02:06:04,240
Speaker 2: the two of them, had scarfs and they would wear

2223
02:06:04,280 --> 02:06:08,040
Speaker 2: these andy cap you know, these these hats that workers

2224
02:06:09,600 --> 02:06:12,160
Speaker 2: in the fruit markets where to keep that top of

2225
02:06:12,200 --> 02:06:14,920
Speaker 2: their head warm. So they thought they could pass as Berliners,

2226
02:06:14,960 --> 02:06:17,600
Speaker 2: and that they actually did, you know, until they spoke English.

2227
02:06:18,280 --> 02:06:20,800
Speaker 2: But we often ordered in German. It was easy to order,

2228
02:06:20,880 --> 02:06:23,840
Speaker 2: you know, si beer, you know, and then when you

2229
02:06:23,920 --> 02:06:26,560
Speaker 2: wanted to pay you would say, v feel how much

2230
02:06:27,360 --> 02:06:28,920
Speaker 2: things like that? We learned that, We learned a few

2231
02:06:29,160 --> 02:06:32,040
Speaker 2: good words. So maybe the Germans knew we were in German,

2232
02:06:32,160 --> 02:06:34,600
Speaker 2: but you know, they were trying definitely to blend in.

2233
02:06:35,880 --> 02:06:39,960
Speaker 1: So you continue to work with Bowie until all of

2234
02:06:39,960 --> 02:06:43,200
Speaker 1: a sudden there's a schism in his sound and he

2235
02:06:43,320 --> 02:06:47,880
Speaker 1: works with now Rogers on Legs Dance. How did that happen?

2236
02:06:48,080 --> 02:06:50,080
Speaker 1: How did you end up not being involved?

2237
02:06:51,280 --> 02:06:56,080
Speaker 2: Well, before that happened, we did an incredible album called

2238
02:06:56,120 --> 02:06:59,800
Speaker 2: Scary Monsters Right, which which was number one and most

2239
02:07:00,240 --> 02:07:04,600
Speaker 2: of the world. So that was I thought, well, we're

2240
02:07:04,640 --> 02:07:07,000
Speaker 2: going to make a great record after this. The next

2241
02:07:07,040 --> 02:07:10,080
Speaker 2: one's going to be killer. The next record was Let's Dance,

2242
02:07:10,800 --> 02:07:15,440
Speaker 2: and his instead of him phoning me, Coco phoned me

2243
02:07:15,600 --> 02:07:19,720
Speaker 2: his assistant and she said, David's very sorry, but he

2244
02:07:20,040 --> 02:07:23,920
Speaker 2: just met Nile and they got on really really well

2245
02:07:24,640 --> 02:07:26,840
Speaker 2: and they're going to make an album together. So he's

2246
02:07:26,920 --> 02:07:29,240
Speaker 2: very very He said, you know, you'll make the next one,

2247
02:07:29,280 --> 02:07:32,520
Speaker 2: he says, but he wants he wants to work with Nile.

2248
02:07:32,600 --> 02:07:34,640
Speaker 2: It's very important to him. They got on really really well.

2249
02:07:34,680 --> 02:07:40,040
Speaker 2: So I said, okay, and I was really crestfallen. I

2250
02:07:40,160 --> 02:07:43,920
Speaker 2: really was, but it turned out great. You know, Let's

2251
02:07:44,000 --> 02:07:46,320
Speaker 2: Dance is a big hit, and he said, that's why

2252
02:07:46,440 --> 02:07:49,280
Speaker 2: I did it. I wanted that sound, and I knew

2253
02:07:49,280 --> 02:07:50,640
Speaker 2: I was going to get a hit record with him.

2254
02:07:50,680 --> 02:07:54,000
Speaker 2: I needed another international hit, which Nile gave him. And

2255
02:07:54,120 --> 02:07:55,600
Speaker 2: I take my hat off to him.

2256
02:07:56,280 --> 02:07:59,440
Speaker 1: You know, although I do like modern love. If I

2257
02:07:59,560 --> 02:08:03,040
Speaker 1: never hear Let's Dance again, that's okay with me. Seemed

2258
02:08:03,040 --> 02:08:05,960
Speaker 1: a little obvious, but brought him back then he worked

2259
02:08:06,000 --> 02:08:09,120
Speaker 1: with you, pagem before he goes back to you. What's

2260
02:08:09,160 --> 02:08:10,280
Speaker 1: his explanation there?

2261
02:08:11,920 --> 02:08:17,200
Speaker 2: He we had a thing like we came together and

2262
02:08:17,480 --> 02:08:21,440
Speaker 2: we worked a part many times, and I by then

2263
02:08:21,560 --> 02:08:23,440
Speaker 2: I couldn't blame him. He's, oh, he's looking for a

2264
02:08:23,560 --> 02:08:25,480
Speaker 2: new sound. He thought, maybe when he works with me,

2265
02:08:25,600 --> 02:08:27,800
Speaker 2: it's going to be predictable, it's going to be another

2266
02:08:27,880 --> 02:08:30,200
Speaker 2: the man who sold the world or heroes and all that.

2267
02:08:30,800 --> 02:08:34,160
Speaker 2: So he would love to like pay a producer to

2268
02:08:35,200 --> 02:08:37,520
Speaker 2: get a new fresh set of sounds. I think you

2269
02:08:37,600 --> 02:08:39,680
Speaker 2: page him worked with the Police or something. I don't know,

2270
02:08:40,320 --> 02:08:42,840
Speaker 2: the other great band. You know, he wanted a bit

2271
02:08:42,880 --> 02:08:46,040
Speaker 2: of the modern sound, but he'd always come back to

2272
02:08:46,160 --> 02:08:49,960
Speaker 2: me and for another record, Like you know, Diamond Dogs

2273
02:08:50,040 --> 02:08:56,040
Speaker 2: was a comeback record. Heathen was a comeback record after

2274
02:08:56,120 --> 02:08:58,360
Speaker 2: he worked, Like after we didn't speak to each other

2275
02:08:58,440 --> 02:09:01,520
Speaker 2: for ten years, he comes back one day and he says,

2276
02:09:01,760 --> 02:09:04,280
Speaker 2: how'd you like to get together and make another record together?

2277
02:09:04,400 --> 02:09:06,640
Speaker 2: You know? So I ended up making his last four

2278
02:09:06,680 --> 02:09:09,280
Speaker 2: albums with no right other producer in between.

2279
02:09:09,880 --> 02:09:15,160
Speaker 1: But before we get there, he is legendary for changing direction.

2280
02:09:16,160 --> 02:09:19,200
Speaker 1: Was that very conscious you were?

2281
02:09:19,320 --> 02:09:19,560
Speaker 2: There?

2282
02:09:20,480 --> 02:09:22,400
Speaker 1: Was he saying I did this, I need to do

2283
02:09:22,520 --> 02:09:25,839
Speaker 1: something different, or it's just in retrospect, it was different.

2284
02:09:26,920 --> 02:09:29,600
Speaker 2: Well, you know, he didn't get that name chameleon for nothing.

2285
02:09:29,960 --> 02:09:33,400
Speaker 2: It also referred to his change of musical tastes and styles.

2286
02:09:34,240 --> 02:09:37,080
Speaker 2: He constantly listened to new music. He would bring a

2287
02:09:37,160 --> 02:09:40,720
Speaker 2: stack of records with him whenever we we'd meet up,

2288
02:09:40,760 --> 02:09:43,880
Speaker 2: and we would go through the latest releases, and he'd

2289
02:09:43,920 --> 02:09:45,480
Speaker 2: want to make sure that I was up to date.

2290
02:09:46,160 --> 02:09:50,640
Speaker 2: And I would be with him and he could take

2291
02:09:50,720 --> 02:09:54,720
Speaker 2: someone's sound like oh what was that other one? Oh gosh,

2292
02:09:56,080 --> 02:09:58,920
Speaker 2: nine inch nails. He blatantly said, you know, I'll make

2293
02:09:58,960 --> 02:10:00,640
Speaker 2: a record with you and I I'm going to take

2294
02:10:00,640 --> 02:10:02,400
Speaker 2: your sound and I'll be your lead singer, so he

2295
02:10:02,400 --> 02:10:05,680
Speaker 2: would be Nile Rodgers's lead singer. That's he kind of

2296
02:10:05,720 --> 02:10:08,760
Speaker 2: spent that period being other group's lead singer, and he

2297
02:10:08,920 --> 02:10:12,520
Speaker 2: copped their sound. He'd steal their sound, but with their blessings.

2298
02:10:12,520 --> 02:10:14,760
Speaker 2: Because you know that by then, to work with David

2299
02:10:14,800 --> 02:10:17,160
Speaker 2: Bowie was like one of the greatest achievements in a

2300
02:10:17,760 --> 02:10:20,480
Speaker 2: producer's life or another rock star's life.

2301
02:10:22,000 --> 02:10:26,400
Speaker 1: And you you know, you talk about the last four records, Okay,

2302
02:10:26,480 --> 02:10:30,720
Speaker 1: we have The Next Day in two thy thirteen. Then

2303
02:10:30,800 --> 02:10:34,560
Speaker 1: of course the final album Blackstar. At this point in

2304
02:10:34,680 --> 02:10:38,040
Speaker 1: time was so much changing. Is he just want to

2305
02:10:38,360 --> 02:10:40,040
Speaker 1: lay down what he wants to lay down or is

2306
02:10:40,080 --> 02:10:43,640
Speaker 1: he still conscious of what's going on in charts, et cetera.

2307
02:10:44,200 --> 02:10:47,200
Speaker 2: Oh, he was forever interested in the charts. And the

2308
02:10:47,320 --> 02:10:50,720
Speaker 2: Next Day was on purpose. It was a retro look

2309
02:10:50,800 --> 02:10:53,720
Speaker 2: back at his other styles. So The Next Day is

2310
02:10:53,920 --> 02:10:56,640
Speaker 2: done in a lot of different David Bowie styles. But

2311
02:10:56,760 --> 02:11:00,160
Speaker 2: for Blackstar, he wanted to do his dream record that

2312
02:11:00,280 --> 02:11:02,880
Speaker 2: he never really achieved. He made a few attempts in

2313
02:11:02,960 --> 02:11:06,040
Speaker 2: the past, but he wanted to make a jazz based album.

2314
02:11:07,120 --> 02:11:09,800
Speaker 2: It had to he wanted to make it with jazz musicians,

2315
02:11:10,960 --> 02:11:14,720
Speaker 2: so he met this guy called Donnie McCaslin, who's an

2316
02:11:14,800 --> 02:11:18,040
Speaker 2: incredible sax player, and Donnie had a four piece band

2317
02:11:18,920 --> 02:11:22,280
Speaker 2: and he said, come, I want you to see this

2318
02:11:22,480 --> 02:11:24,920
Speaker 2: band because I'm thinking of using them. So we went

2319
02:11:25,040 --> 02:11:28,280
Speaker 2: down to the Blue Note in New York together, and

2320
02:11:28,440 --> 02:11:33,160
Speaker 2: I thought Donnie was fantastic. He just great. I loved him,

2321
02:11:33,480 --> 02:11:37,520
Speaker 2: loved all his players in the band, And when we

2322
02:11:37,600 --> 02:11:42,640
Speaker 2: got closer to Black Star, we had a couple of

2323
02:11:43,120 --> 02:11:48,839
Speaker 2: experiences with them. We recorded with Forget her Name again. Anyway,

2324
02:11:48,880 --> 02:11:51,760
Speaker 2: we had a session we worked with Donnie prior to

2325
02:11:52,360 --> 02:11:54,920
Speaker 2: Black Star, and we knew he was going to work. Also,

2326
02:11:55,080 --> 02:11:59,840
Speaker 2: Mark Juliana, the drummer in his band, was absolutely unbelievable

2327
02:12:00,120 --> 02:12:02,840
Speaker 2: and like him, this guy was a loop master. You

2328
02:12:02,960 --> 02:12:05,200
Speaker 2: thought it was a drum loop, but it's a real

2329
02:12:05,280 --> 02:12:07,640
Speaker 2: musician playing the same pattern over and over again for

2330
02:12:08,240 --> 02:12:12,080
Speaker 2: seven minutes. He was just a genius. So we had

2331
02:12:12,160 --> 02:12:16,200
Speaker 2: a pre production, was just one little rehearsal, and then

2332
02:12:16,680 --> 02:12:19,280
Speaker 2: David seeing me the day before and telling me that

2333
02:12:20,480 --> 02:12:25,240
Speaker 2: he was he was getting chemo treatment. So he said,

2334
02:12:25,520 --> 02:12:27,400
Speaker 2: I can't start this album with letting you know that,

2335
02:12:27,480 --> 02:12:30,120
Speaker 2: without letting you know that, And then the next day

2336
02:12:30,160 --> 02:12:33,320
Speaker 2: we started the album with the band, and he did

2337
02:12:33,360 --> 02:12:35,280
Speaker 2: the same thing. He gathered them all together in the

2338
02:12:35,320 --> 02:12:38,160
Speaker 2: studio and then he said, he told them the same

2339
02:12:38,240 --> 02:12:41,480
Speaker 2: thing he told me the day before. So he wasn't

2340
02:12:41,560 --> 02:12:43,760
Speaker 2: dead beat about it. He was quite upbeat about it.

2341
02:12:43,800 --> 02:12:45,960
Speaker 2: He says, but we're going to make the best album ever.

2342
02:12:46,080 --> 02:12:47,920
Speaker 2: We're gonna just you know, I want you guys to

2343
02:12:48,000 --> 02:12:52,320
Speaker 2: do your thing, don't hold back. And he gave them.

2344
02:12:52,400 --> 02:12:56,440
Speaker 2: He gave Danny. He gave Donnie a handful of demos,

2345
02:12:56,440 --> 02:12:58,680
Speaker 2: which is the first time he never gave me a demo.

2346
02:12:59,360 --> 02:13:02,440
Speaker 2: I always had the demos before we started. But his

2347
02:13:02,760 --> 02:13:05,560
Speaker 2: idea was to not have my influence at all on

2348
02:13:06,400 --> 02:13:09,880
Speaker 2: the creative part. At that level. He wanted this to

2349
02:13:10,000 --> 02:13:12,920
Speaker 2: be purely an album between him and Donnie and the

2350
02:13:13,040 --> 02:13:16,440
Speaker 2: band Donnie's band. So that's why it sounds so different

2351
02:13:17,160 --> 02:13:23,000
Speaker 2: and really really interesting and he's fulfilling his dream. He

2352
02:13:23,160 --> 02:13:27,360
Speaker 2: always recorded live in the room with them, and I

2353
02:13:27,480 --> 02:13:29,400
Speaker 2: have the master tapes and at the end you could

2354
02:13:29,440 --> 02:13:32,640
Speaker 2: hear him like laughing and cracking up talking to the band.

2355
02:13:32,720 --> 02:13:35,480
Speaker 2: These were his kind of people that he wanted to

2356
02:13:35,520 --> 02:13:38,440
Speaker 2: work with. At last, his other musicians that he made

2357
02:13:38,480 --> 02:13:41,160
Speaker 2: albums with prior to this, they some of them could

2358
02:13:41,160 --> 02:13:44,120
Speaker 2: play jazz, but it would be rock musicians playing jazz.

2359
02:13:44,640 --> 02:13:47,080
Speaker 2: But he felt, let's get the real thing, Let's get

2360
02:13:47,120 --> 02:13:49,720
Speaker 2: real jazz musicians, and instead it would have been a

2361
02:13:49,760 --> 02:13:52,520
Speaker 2: different album. But the songs that he wrote for Black Star,

2362
02:13:52,640 --> 02:13:54,600
Speaker 2: which just broke my heart, some of them, they were

2363
02:13:54,640 --> 02:13:58,680
Speaker 2: so beautiful and telltale. I mean, he's telling you, he's

2364
02:13:58,680 --> 02:14:00,320
Speaker 2: wearing his heart on his sleeve on that album.

2365
02:14:01,320 --> 02:14:04,360
Speaker 1: You know, he tells everybody involved that he has is

2366
02:14:04,480 --> 02:14:08,600
Speaker 1: being treeated. Was he optimistic at that point and then

2367
02:14:08,680 --> 02:14:11,080
Speaker 1: had to face the fact that it was terminal or

2368
02:14:11,240 --> 02:14:12,440
Speaker 1: was he hiding it from you?

2369
02:14:14,600 --> 02:14:17,800
Speaker 2: He was optimistic because he was going for the treatments.

2370
02:14:17,960 --> 02:14:21,160
Speaker 2: He wouldn't have gone if if he wasn't optimistic, and

2371
02:14:21,600 --> 02:14:23,840
Speaker 2: it happened. You know, his death was almost a year

2372
02:14:23,920 --> 02:14:30,120
Speaker 2: later from from that, and you know, he was good.

2373
02:14:30,160 --> 02:14:31,720
Speaker 2: Sometimes he had to leave early because he was a

2374
02:14:31,760 --> 02:14:35,879
Speaker 2: little tired, and so our days would end around five o'clock.

2375
02:14:35,920 --> 02:14:37,640
Speaker 2: But there were there were always things to do in

2376
02:14:37,720 --> 02:14:42,680
Speaker 2: his absence. So Donnie would play four saxophones and build

2377
02:14:42,760 --> 02:14:45,040
Speaker 2: up a sack section, things like that, and we'd play

2378
02:14:45,080 --> 02:14:46,880
Speaker 2: it to David the next day and he'd like what

2379
02:14:46,960 --> 02:14:51,120
Speaker 2: we had done. But he never never wore a gloomy face.

2380
02:14:51,240 --> 02:14:54,360
Speaker 2: He was absolutely smiling from ear to ear whenever he

2381
02:14:54,520 --> 02:14:56,760
Speaker 2: came to the sessions. He was in a great mood.

2382
02:14:57,800 --> 02:15:01,160
Speaker 1: And when the record was done. You know, interesting thing

2383
02:15:01,280 --> 02:15:04,720
Speaker 1: is it was released serendipitously just about when he died.

2384
02:15:05,560 --> 02:15:08,360
Speaker 1: Were you in contact with him in the ensuing months

2385
02:15:08,400 --> 02:15:11,080
Speaker 1: subsequent to the completion of the album, and how did

2386
02:15:11,160 --> 02:15:12,600
Speaker 1: you find out that he passed?

2387
02:15:13,200 --> 02:15:16,280
Speaker 2: Well? When the album ended, he was in great health.

2388
02:15:16,600 --> 02:15:21,120
Speaker 2: He was really fit. He was doing exercises. I didn't

2389
02:15:21,320 --> 02:15:23,520
Speaker 2: I stopped asking whether he was doing chemo or not.

2390
02:15:24,520 --> 02:15:27,320
Speaker 2: And because it was just such a regular thing. I mean,

2391
02:15:27,960 --> 02:15:30,160
Speaker 2: you know that was interesting. At the beginning of the album,

2392
02:15:30,160 --> 02:15:31,560
Speaker 2: at the end of the album, we were just a

2393
02:15:31,640 --> 02:15:36,600
Speaker 2: bunch of musicians making records. I saw him for lunches again,

2394
02:15:36,760 --> 02:15:40,280
Speaker 2: things like that. And then closer we got to Christmas,

2395
02:15:40,800 --> 02:15:44,200
Speaker 2: he had his family over and he was so pleased

2396
02:15:44,200 --> 02:15:45,880
Speaker 2: to her. He phoned me up and he said that

2397
02:15:46,000 --> 02:15:50,800
Speaker 2: he was He said he was going to become a grandfather.

2398
02:15:51,440 --> 02:15:53,800
Speaker 2: He's very proud of that. And I kept that secret.

2399
02:15:53,840 --> 02:15:55,480
Speaker 2: He said, this is a secret. Don't tell anyone. I

2400
02:15:55,600 --> 02:16:00,160
Speaker 2: kept that secret, and that he said he was going

2401
02:16:00,200 --> 02:16:03,320
Speaker 2: to resume some therapy. Afterwards, he says, everything's going great.

2402
02:16:03,320 --> 02:16:07,240
Speaker 2: I'll be fine, everything's going great. But you know, it

2403
02:16:07,400 --> 02:16:10,400
Speaker 2: wasn't going great. And he phoned up a lot of

2404
02:16:10,480 --> 02:16:13,120
Speaker 2: people in that month, so he was kind. It was

2405
02:16:13,240 --> 02:16:15,480
Speaker 2: kind of a goodbye. I heard from a lot of

2406
02:16:15,560 --> 02:16:17,720
Speaker 2: my friends. He was making phone calls to everyone he

2407
02:16:17,840 --> 02:16:22,200
Speaker 2: worked with, old friends, and he never actually said anything.

2408
02:16:22,280 --> 02:16:24,480
Speaker 2: He was just like getting up to date, probably telling

2409
02:16:24,520 --> 02:16:26,600
Speaker 2: them the same thing. He was going to become a grandfather.

2410
02:16:26,720 --> 02:16:29,920
Speaker 2: Don't tell anybody things like that. So I went on

2411
02:16:30,080 --> 02:16:32,760
Speaker 2: tour with my band, Holy Holy. We were doing a

2412
02:16:32,800 --> 02:16:39,240
Speaker 2: Bowie tribute tour and I was in Toronto and something.

2413
02:16:40,480 --> 02:16:42,640
Speaker 2: My alarm went off at eight in the morning and

2414
02:16:43,440 --> 02:16:47,360
Speaker 2: my watch, I didn't see my clock my iPhone and

2415
02:16:47,480 --> 02:16:49,959
Speaker 2: I looked at it and I saw David Bowie passed

2416
02:16:50,879 --> 02:16:52,879
Speaker 2: at eight o'clock in the morning. I saw he passed.

2417
02:16:53,040 --> 02:16:57,280
Speaker 2: And this is December tenth. And later there's a knock

2418
02:16:57,360 --> 02:16:59,440
Speaker 2: on my door. In the group. They come in my room.

2419
02:16:59,520 --> 02:17:02,480
Speaker 2: They say, Tony, I'm sorry to tell you something terrible

2420
02:17:02,520 --> 02:17:06,480
Speaker 2: has happened. I go, I know, And we had another

2421
02:17:06,560 --> 02:17:10,960
Speaker 2: show to play in Toronto that night, and said we

2422
02:17:11,080 --> 02:17:12,680
Speaker 2: had to have a group meeting. What are we going

2423
02:17:12,720 --> 02:17:16,120
Speaker 2: to do about this? And I said, I don't know.

2424
02:17:16,400 --> 02:17:18,800
Speaker 2: I think David, you know, without sending code, I think

2425
02:17:18,840 --> 02:17:20,760
Speaker 2: the show must go on. We have this is our

2426
02:17:20,840 --> 02:17:25,119
Speaker 2: last date. These fans are going to want to mourn

2427
02:17:25,240 --> 02:17:27,760
Speaker 2: his death. They're going to and we're going to celebrate

2428
02:17:27,840 --> 02:17:30,400
Speaker 2: his life. Let's go and do the show. And even

2429
02:17:30,480 --> 02:17:32,960
Speaker 2: the promoterst begged, I just would I hope you're not

2430
02:17:33,000 --> 02:17:34,840
Speaker 2: going to cancel the show. I said, no, we'll do it.

2431
02:17:34,920 --> 02:17:37,760
Speaker 2: We'll do it. So we played seven of us. We

2432
02:17:37,840 --> 02:17:41,480
Speaker 2: played to you know, a rows and rows of people

2433
02:17:41,680 --> 02:17:44,560
Speaker 2: crying their eyes out, and then it was infectious. You know,

2434
02:17:44,879 --> 02:17:48,640
Speaker 2: I'm playing I'm crying my eyes out, playing bass, lead singers,

2435
02:17:48,760 --> 02:17:52,200
Speaker 2: choking on the words. And finally it's settled down. By

2436
02:17:52,240 --> 02:17:54,840
Speaker 2: the second half of the show, we all calm down

2437
02:17:54,959 --> 02:17:58,080
Speaker 2: with saying nice things about David. What else can you do?

2438
02:17:58,320 --> 02:18:01,040
Speaker 2: You know? And that was the end of the tour

2439
02:18:01,080 --> 02:18:04,920
Speaker 2: and I went back and none of us, nobody, there

2440
02:18:04,959 --> 02:18:07,040
Speaker 2: was no funeral that I knew of, you know, it

2441
02:18:07,160 --> 02:18:11,560
Speaker 2: was just a family thing. I have no idea how

2442
02:18:11,680 --> 02:18:16,520
Speaker 2: it went after he died, but he said it's goodbye

2443
02:18:16,560 --> 02:18:16,720
Speaker 2: to me.

2444
02:18:17,640 --> 02:18:22,600
Speaker 1: Subsequent to his passing, there been you're let's just use

2445
02:18:22,680 --> 02:18:26,160
Speaker 1: the term Bowie tribute tour, but there's been another Bowie

2446
02:18:26,400 --> 02:18:29,680
Speaker 1: tribute tour with Adrian Blue. Are you fine with that

2447
02:18:29,840 --> 02:18:34,200
Speaker 1: or are you unhappy with that? Here's the difference. There's

2448
02:18:34,240 --> 02:18:36,199
Speaker 1: a tour now with all of them that the Bowie

2449
02:18:36,320 --> 02:18:40,680
Speaker 1: people who came at the afterwards, they Adrian actually played

2450
02:18:40,760 --> 02:18:43,440
Speaker 1: on an album, he played on larger, but a lot

2451
02:18:43,480 --> 02:18:46,320
Speaker 1: of the people were just his live people, his live

2452
02:18:46,400 --> 02:18:49,520
Speaker 1: show people, and some of them played on their albums

2453
02:18:49,560 --> 02:18:51,720
Speaker 1: and all that. It's just an alumn that's called an

2454
02:18:51,720 --> 02:18:56,000
Speaker 1: alumni tour. The reason I did that tribute Ben Woody

2455
02:18:56,080 --> 02:18:58,640
Speaker 1: Woodmansey and I played on The Man Who Sold the World.

2456
02:18:58,760 --> 02:19:00,840
Speaker 1: It started as a Man Who Saw the World tour.

2457
02:19:01,280 --> 02:19:05,240
Speaker 1: We are the original musicians and we felt that we

2458
02:19:05,400 --> 02:19:08,680
Speaker 1: had the right to do this to form this band.

2459
02:19:09,160 --> 02:19:12,960
Speaker 1: We always the tribute was to David, and we always

2460
02:19:13,000 --> 02:19:15,040
Speaker 1: had a pause in the middle of the show saying

2461
02:19:15,080 --> 02:19:18,480
Speaker 1: a nice little anecdote about David. And we felt that

2462
02:19:18,680 --> 02:19:21,120
Speaker 1: it was our right to do this without feeling bad

2463
02:19:21,200 --> 02:19:23,600
Speaker 1: about it, that we're just capitalizing on his death.

2464
02:19:24,640 --> 02:19:28,080
Speaker 2: He actually didn't. He died after we started this tour.

2465
02:19:29,240 --> 02:19:31,760
Speaker 2: We started it as a Bowie tribute show, and he

2466
02:19:32,200 --> 02:19:35,080
Speaker 2: asked me, he said, why are you doing this? And

2467
02:19:35,160 --> 02:19:37,400
Speaker 2: I said, because when we finished The Man of Soul

2468
02:19:37,480 --> 02:19:40,600
Speaker 2: the World, you split up the group. We went four

2469
02:19:40,640 --> 02:19:44,880
Speaker 2: different ways. Mick and Woody went back to Hull and you,

2470
02:19:45,360 --> 02:19:47,200
Speaker 2: you know, did your thing. You were doing your thing.

2471
02:19:47,560 --> 02:19:53,280
Speaker 2: He goes, oh, that's right, I said, he forgot. I said,

2472
02:19:53,440 --> 02:19:54,960
Speaker 2: that's why we're doing this. We do you feel we

2473
02:19:55,040 --> 02:19:57,360
Speaker 2: could do this? And we got a guy who sings

2474
02:19:57,480 --> 02:19:59,280
Speaker 2: very well. Would you like to see a video of

2475
02:19:59,400 --> 02:20:01,960
Speaker 2: one song? So I played the width of a Circle

2476
02:20:02,000 --> 02:20:04,760
Speaker 2: to him and he sat just behind where I'm sitting

2477
02:20:04,840 --> 02:20:07,840
Speaker 2: now and he said that's really good. At the end

2478
02:20:07,840 --> 02:20:09,720
Speaker 2: of he gouse, that's really great. You guys did a

2479
02:20:09,800 --> 02:20:12,480
Speaker 2: great job, because he says, if we stuck together, we

2480
02:20:12,560 --> 02:20:17,000
Speaker 2: would we would have sounded that good. You know, you're

2481
02:20:17,240 --> 02:20:19,600
Speaker 2: better rehearsed than we were at the time. I said,

2482
02:20:19,760 --> 02:20:22,400
Speaker 2: would you put that in writing? He says, no, absolutely not.

2483
02:20:24,440 --> 02:20:26,880
Speaker 2: It would have been nice if you endorsed the tour.

2484
02:20:27,000 --> 02:20:27,880
Speaker 2: But he died after this.

2485
02:20:29,000 --> 02:20:32,360
Speaker 1: You have these incredible highlights with David Bowie and t Rex.

2486
02:20:32,440 --> 02:20:36,240
Speaker 1: But you also did records with General Giant, the Moody

2487
02:20:36,400 --> 02:20:40,080
Speaker 1: Blues Bad Finger when it was still called the Ivy's.

2488
02:20:40,160 --> 02:20:42,120
Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff there. But before we go,

2489
02:20:43,240 --> 02:20:46,760
Speaker 1: one thing you mentioned. You said you were writing songs

2490
02:20:46,840 --> 02:20:50,800
Speaker 1: with your wife. So when did you get married and

2491
02:20:50,920 --> 02:20:52,960
Speaker 1: did that wife go to England with you?

2492
02:20:54,280 --> 02:20:57,480
Speaker 2: That was nineteen sixty seven. That was her name was

2493
02:20:57,560 --> 02:21:01,760
Speaker 2: Sigrid and she was in a German America. That was

2494
02:21:01,800 --> 02:21:03,879
Speaker 2: the wife. Then I was married to Mary Hopkin.

2495
02:21:04,520 --> 02:21:07,120
Speaker 1: Well before we get to marry Hopkin. Yeah, your first wife.

2496
02:21:07,160 --> 02:21:08,240
Speaker 1: Did she go to London with you?

2497
02:21:08,640 --> 02:21:12,560
Speaker 2: Yes, she did, and she left after about seven months

2498
02:21:13,480 --> 02:21:15,320
Speaker 2: without me knowing it. I got home from work in

2499
02:21:15,400 --> 02:21:17,480
Speaker 2: the apartment, all her clothes were gone.

2500
02:21:18,320 --> 02:21:23,040
Speaker 1: Whoaha, whoa whoa, whoa, whoa who Did you have any

2501
02:21:23,160 --> 02:21:24,640
Speaker 1: idea and what did that feel like?

2502
02:21:25,080 --> 02:21:29,480
Speaker 2: Well, we were a singing duo and in New York,

2503
02:21:29,720 --> 02:21:33,200
Speaker 2: but that never continued when we moved to London. All

2504
02:21:33,200 --> 02:21:36,480
Speaker 2: of a sudden, my career was taking off and Segur

2505
02:21:36,720 --> 02:21:38,800
Speaker 2: was a stay at home wife and I didn't know

2506
02:21:39,280 --> 02:21:43,640
Speaker 2: how to deal with that. I invited her to come

2507
02:21:43,680 --> 02:21:46,640
Speaker 2: to the recording sessions and sit in but there was

2508
02:21:46,720 --> 02:21:49,440
Speaker 2: nothing for her to do, so she left me. She

2509
02:21:49,520 --> 02:21:52,120
Speaker 2: went back to her to live with her mother for

2510
02:21:52,200 --> 02:21:56,000
Speaker 2: a while. And by the way, like today, she's a tycoon.

2511
02:21:56,200 --> 02:21:59,960
Speaker 2: She builds, she builds office buildings in Manhattan.

2512
02:22:01,280 --> 02:22:04,879
Speaker 1: She Wow, did she get remarried?

2513
02:22:06,040 --> 02:22:09,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple of times. But you know I met

2514
02:22:09,040 --> 02:22:10,680
Speaker 2: I met up with her a few years ago, and

2515
02:22:11,240 --> 02:22:14,160
Speaker 2: she's dressed to the nines. You know, she's dressed so beautifully,

2516
02:22:14,600 --> 02:22:17,120
Speaker 2: just for a chat. It was her idea. So she

2517
02:22:17,240 --> 02:22:20,680
Speaker 2: looks at me, and I'm already a successful record producers.

2518
02:22:21,000 --> 02:22:22,640
Speaker 2: So she looks at me and says the first thing

2519
02:22:22,680 --> 02:22:25,320
Speaker 2: out of her mouth, so do you need any money?

2520
02:22:27,879 --> 02:22:28,400
Speaker 1: First thing?

2521
02:22:29,000 --> 02:22:31,520
Speaker 2: There was the one upman ship. She just had to do.

2522
02:22:31,920 --> 02:22:32,800
Speaker 2: She just had to do that.

2523
02:22:34,200 --> 02:22:39,360
Speaker 1: Okay, you're making record with the ivs, become bad Finger, Magic, Christian, etcetera.

2524
02:22:39,720 --> 02:22:41,400
Speaker 1: How do you meet Mary Hopkins?

2525
02:22:42,680 --> 02:22:45,800
Speaker 2: That was interesting because I did work with the Ivy's

2526
02:22:45,920 --> 02:22:48,519
Speaker 2: and I was in and out of the Apple offices

2527
02:22:48,760 --> 02:22:51,280
Speaker 2: all the time. You know, you could anyone could walk

2528
02:22:51,320 --> 02:22:53,720
Speaker 2: in off the street. You've heard about this, whether Hell's

2529
02:22:53,760 --> 02:22:57,360
Speaker 2: angels could walk in anything, you know, And so I

2530
02:22:57,480 --> 02:23:00,160
Speaker 2: met a lot of people around the offices and they

2531
02:23:00,240 --> 02:23:03,080
Speaker 2: knew me, they knew I was working with t Rex,

2532
02:23:03,720 --> 02:23:06,680
Speaker 2: things like that. And I just got a call out

2533
02:23:06,680 --> 02:23:12,760
Speaker 2: of the blue from Mary's manager who said, we like

2534
02:23:14,480 --> 02:23:18,080
Speaker 2: Mary wants to make a folk album. She's doesn't want

2535
02:23:18,080 --> 02:23:20,240
Speaker 2: to be a pop star anymore. She doesn't she had

2536
02:23:20,280 --> 02:23:22,040
Speaker 2: the big hit with Paul McCartney and all that, and

2537
02:23:22,080 --> 02:23:25,560
Speaker 2: then she feels like people used her voice in the

2538
02:23:25,600 --> 02:23:27,880
Speaker 2: wrong way. She wants to make a folk album and

2539
02:23:28,000 --> 02:23:30,520
Speaker 2: she loves the music that you made with Ralph mctel

2540
02:23:31,000 --> 02:23:35,400
Speaker 2: and the Strawbes, to two folk artists that I've worked with.

2541
02:23:36,080 --> 02:23:39,280
Speaker 2: She says, I want that sound. So I said, well,

2542
02:23:40,120 --> 02:23:42,280
Speaker 2: I can do that for her. I can get Ralph

2543
02:23:42,320 --> 02:23:45,039
Speaker 2: mctel playing one guitar and Dave Cousin's playing the other

2544
02:23:46,080 --> 02:23:49,160
Speaker 2: and Danny Thompson in the middle on a double bass

2545
02:23:49,560 --> 02:23:54,480
Speaker 2: who played with Pentangle. And so I met Mary and

2546
02:23:54,879 --> 02:23:56,880
Speaker 2: told her all this, and she looked at me like

2547
02:23:58,160 --> 02:24:00,680
Speaker 2: I was like Jesus or something like that. This is

2548
02:24:00,840 --> 02:24:03,400
Speaker 2: exactly what she wanted to do. And she was thrilled

2549
02:24:03,440 --> 02:24:08,039
Speaker 2: as somebody was listening to her, you know, because Paul

2550
02:24:08,120 --> 02:24:10,440
Speaker 2: McCartney just thought she was going to be a pop star,

2551
02:24:10,720 --> 02:24:13,080
Speaker 2: you know, like he thought that was everyone's goal. But

2552
02:24:13,200 --> 02:24:16,400
Speaker 2: her roots were always folk music. She played in folk

2553
02:24:16,440 --> 02:24:19,680
Speaker 2: clubs in Wales and she was bilingual. She used to

2554
02:24:19,760 --> 02:24:23,800
Speaker 2: sing in Welsh to all these men's clubs. You know,

2555
02:24:23,959 --> 02:24:27,039
Speaker 2: they'd be drinking, knocking back pints of ale and singing

2556
02:24:27,120 --> 02:24:30,040
Speaker 2: in Welsh and all that. She was great, you know,

2557
02:24:30,160 --> 02:24:33,120
Speaker 2: but she wasn't a pop singer. So that's how it happened.

2558
02:24:33,160 --> 02:24:37,720
Speaker 2: I made her this album, Earth Song, Ocean Song. I

2559
02:24:37,840 --> 02:24:40,959
Speaker 2: spent at least two or three months looking for music

2560
02:24:41,120 --> 02:24:44,960
Speaker 2: she wasn't writing. Then I found some good songs for

2561
02:24:45,040 --> 02:24:47,480
Speaker 2: her in New York and brought him back to London

2562
02:24:47,959 --> 02:24:50,800
Speaker 2: and she was so thrilled. I mean, that was for her.

2563
02:24:50,879 --> 02:24:52,119
Speaker 2: It was the best thing she ever did.

2564
02:24:53,080 --> 02:24:54,640
Speaker 1: So how did it turn into a romance?

2565
02:24:55,840 --> 02:25:00,320
Speaker 2: That happened during the making of the album to get

2566
02:25:00,320 --> 02:25:04,080
Speaker 2: a lift home with her one night? And she had

2567
02:25:04,120 --> 02:25:07,200
Speaker 2: a limo in those days, a big Bentley limo, and

2568
02:25:08,160 --> 02:25:10,240
Speaker 2: you know, would you come in for like would you

2569
02:25:10,320 --> 02:25:13,000
Speaker 2: like to come in for a cup of tea? That's

2570
02:25:13,040 --> 02:25:13,760
Speaker 2: how it happened.

2571
02:25:15,760 --> 02:25:19,760
Speaker 1: Okay, you get married. She does not have another hit,

2572
02:25:20,480 --> 02:25:23,560
Speaker 1: does she care? Or is she done? Now?

2573
02:25:23,760 --> 02:25:26,680
Speaker 2: She did what she wanted to do. She didn't have

2574
02:25:26,760 --> 02:25:30,200
Speaker 2: another hit, because that would mean the public wanted her

2575
02:25:30,280 --> 02:25:32,280
Speaker 2: to be that Mary Hopkin, the one who sang those

2576
02:25:32,360 --> 02:25:35,720
Speaker 2: were the days. And she was eighteen when she did that.

2577
02:25:35,920 --> 02:25:38,160
Speaker 2: Now you know, she's a twenty two year old woman

2578
02:25:38,440 --> 02:25:43,160
Speaker 2: married to me. She has kids. And she said, you know,

2579
02:25:43,640 --> 02:25:45,400
Speaker 2: I said, are you going to go back on the

2580
02:25:45,480 --> 02:25:47,840
Speaker 2: road or what are you going to do? Do you?

2581
02:25:48,320 --> 02:25:51,840
Speaker 2: You know, we did a few gigs together with Dave

2582
02:25:51,959 --> 02:25:56,440
Speaker 2: Cousins and Danny Thompson and the Royal Albert Hall, and

2583
02:25:56,760 --> 02:25:59,039
Speaker 2: the audience you could see them float up in the air.

2584
02:25:59,760 --> 02:26:02,160
Speaker 2: She saying like an angel, you know she had, there's

2585
02:26:02,200 --> 02:26:04,720
Speaker 2: no voice like hers. And she said no. She says,

2586
02:26:04,959 --> 02:26:07,000
Speaker 2: what's the use of having children if you're just going

2587
02:26:07,040 --> 02:26:09,080
Speaker 2: to go out and work and do gigs. She says,

2588
02:26:09,120 --> 02:26:11,680
Speaker 2: I'm finished, I'm done. I don't want to do it anymore.

2589
02:26:12,160 --> 02:26:14,959
Speaker 2: So she used our kids. But you know, quite rightly,

2590
02:26:15,040 --> 02:26:17,200
Speaker 2: I think she did that made the right decision because

2591
02:26:17,240 --> 02:26:19,760
Speaker 2: she turned out to be the best mother to my

2592
02:26:19,879 --> 02:26:22,960
Speaker 2: two oldest children. You know who I am still in

2593
02:26:23,080 --> 02:26:25,879
Speaker 2: touch with constantly, and Mary and I are friends.

2594
02:26:25,959 --> 02:26:28,160
Speaker 1: Now. By the way, well how did it end with

2595
02:26:28,240 --> 02:26:28,840
Speaker 1: you and Mary?

2596
02:26:30,959 --> 02:26:34,720
Speaker 2: I cheated on her. She would to stay at home.

2597
02:26:34,800 --> 02:26:37,520
Speaker 2: Mom was not what I married. You know, I was

2598
02:26:37,600 --> 02:26:41,240
Speaker 2: this wild guy. I was a wild, crazy young man

2599
02:26:42,120 --> 02:26:46,320
Speaker 2: and I wasn't a very good husband. That's it. I

2600
02:26:46,400 --> 02:26:47,800
Speaker 2: have nothing to say in my defense.

2601
02:26:49,560 --> 02:26:51,400
Speaker 1: I think that kind of says it all. Then you

2602
02:26:51,520 --> 02:26:54,160
Speaker 1: get involved with me. Pang, who came up earlier in

2603
02:26:54,240 --> 02:26:56,120
Speaker 1: the podcast, how did that happen?

2604
02:26:56,800 --> 02:27:00,240
Speaker 2: Well, that was under the friendliest circumstances. I'm I met

2605
02:27:00,280 --> 02:27:04,360
Speaker 2: her when she left John. After she left, I met

2606
02:27:04,400 --> 02:27:08,520
Speaker 2: her at some kind of do and we went out

2607
02:27:08,560 --> 02:27:10,920
Speaker 2: on a date. I was single. I didn't cheat on

2608
02:27:11,000 --> 02:27:13,360
Speaker 2: any wife to go out with me. Pang, I was single,

2609
02:27:14,120 --> 02:27:18,280
Speaker 2: and we had a little romance in New York and

2610
02:27:18,400 --> 02:27:23,880
Speaker 2: then when I went back to England, she phoned me

2611
02:27:23,959 --> 02:27:29,680
Speaker 2: up one day after that little romance and said, how

2612
02:27:29,720 --> 02:27:35,080
Speaker 2: do you feel about babies? And I said, I like babies.

2613
02:27:35,080 --> 02:27:39,400
Speaker 2: I've got two kids already. I love babies. Because how

2614
02:27:39,400 --> 02:27:41,320
Speaker 2: would you like to be a father? Again? I go,

2615
02:27:42,280 --> 02:27:45,400
Speaker 2: what are you trying to tell me? She says, you're

2616
02:27:45,440 --> 02:27:47,480
Speaker 2: going to be a father. If you don't want to

2617
02:27:47,520 --> 02:27:49,880
Speaker 2: be a father, let me know, I'll get rid of it.

2618
02:27:50,760 --> 02:27:53,640
Speaker 2: But what do you want to do? And I thought

2619
02:27:53,680 --> 02:27:56,280
Speaker 2: for a minute, and this is now. I didn't live

2620
02:27:56,360 --> 02:27:58,960
Speaker 2: with kids for at least a decade by this point,

2621
02:27:59,720 --> 02:28:01,960
Speaker 2: and I made up my mind on the spot. I said,

2622
02:28:02,720 --> 02:28:07,880
Speaker 2: have the baby. And she goes and I said, and

2623
02:28:08,080 --> 02:28:11,360
Speaker 2: everything that goes with it. What do you mean by that?

2624
02:28:12,080 --> 02:28:16,320
Speaker 2: I said, will you marry me? I was in a session.

2625
02:28:16,360 --> 02:28:19,640
Speaker 2: I was in a recording session, and then I come

2626
02:28:19,720 --> 02:28:21,960
Speaker 2: out of the wherever I was taking the phone call

2627
02:28:22,440 --> 02:28:24,120
Speaker 2: and I told everyone I was working with, I'm going

2628
02:28:24,200 --> 02:28:28,240
Speaker 2: to be a father. It sounds flippant, but it was

2629
02:28:28,320 --> 02:28:30,640
Speaker 2: really romantic in a way. I mean the way she

2630
02:28:30,800 --> 02:28:34,320
Speaker 2: asked me, the way she kept rephrasing it and rephrasing

2631
02:28:34,360 --> 02:28:37,280
Speaker 2: it was very interesting, but it was. It was a

2632
02:28:37,360 --> 02:28:39,720
Speaker 2: great you know, I think all my marriages were great

2633
02:28:39,840 --> 02:28:42,640
Speaker 2: up to a point. I'm not a good husband. That's

2634
02:28:42,680 --> 02:28:43,680
Speaker 2: a conclusion I came to.

2635
02:28:44,160 --> 02:28:45,560
Speaker 1: So how did it end with me? Pang?

2636
02:28:48,920 --> 02:28:54,080
Speaker 2: Well, how do I put this? We started arguing a lot,

2637
02:28:54,240 --> 02:29:00,960
Speaker 2: and she was reliving her life again in the John

2638
02:29:01,040 --> 02:29:06,000
Speaker 2: Lennon Years a lot. She wrote that one book, Loving

2639
02:29:06,120 --> 02:29:08,040
Speaker 2: John or something like that, and started going out on

2640
02:29:08,680 --> 02:29:11,800
Speaker 2: a book. You when you promote a book, you know,

2641
02:29:11,879 --> 02:29:15,080
Speaker 2: going to different towns, and all that, and I felt like,

2642
02:29:15,200 --> 02:29:18,199
Speaker 2: at one point, I said, we had John Lennon's photos

2643
02:29:18,240 --> 02:29:21,480
Speaker 2: all over the wall. She said, one by one, I

2644
02:29:21,600 --> 02:29:23,320
Speaker 2: come home from work and there'd be another photo of

2645
02:29:23,400 --> 02:29:25,120
Speaker 2: John Lennon on the wall, or a photo of her

2646
02:29:25,240 --> 02:29:28,080
Speaker 2: and John Lennon on the wall. And I said, may

2647
02:29:28,240 --> 02:29:30,400
Speaker 2: you know this is a little bit ridiculous. I feel

2648
02:29:30,480 --> 02:29:33,520
Speaker 2: like there three of us in bed. And she goes,

2649
02:29:34,000 --> 02:29:36,560
Speaker 2: she said, well, you should have known this when you

2650
02:29:36,640 --> 02:29:38,240
Speaker 2: took it on, when you married me, you should have

2651
02:29:38,320 --> 02:29:40,880
Speaker 2: known this would happen. I go, no, I thought you

2652
02:29:41,040 --> 02:29:45,800
Speaker 2: married me, you know, and then we split, you know,

2653
02:29:45,879 --> 02:29:47,680
Speaker 2: I lived, We lived apart for a while and we

2654
02:29:47,800 --> 02:29:50,240
Speaker 2: never got back together again, and finally got divorced.

2655
02:29:50,640 --> 02:29:52,560
Speaker 1: So how many kids do you have and what are

2656
02:29:52,600 --> 02:29:53,000
Speaker 1: they up to?

2657
02:29:53,560 --> 02:29:56,440
Speaker 2: Oh? I've got great kids. My two oldest kids are

2658
02:29:56,520 --> 02:30:00,760
Speaker 2: from Mary Hopkin. My son, Morgan is Morgan Visconty. He's

2659
02:30:00,760 --> 02:30:04,160
Speaker 2: a film composer and he owns this company I'm sitting

2660
02:30:04,200 --> 02:30:06,840
Speaker 2: in right now. This is a whole bunch of recording

2661
02:30:06,920 --> 02:30:10,800
Speaker 2: studios where the people write jingles and film scores. And

2662
02:30:11,440 --> 02:30:15,600
Speaker 2: Morgan doesn't come in anymore. He's kind of semi retired

2663
02:30:16,000 --> 02:30:19,160
Speaker 2: at fifty one years old, but he likes to keep

2664
02:30:19,200 --> 02:30:23,160
Speaker 2: his hand in and write film scores. My oldest daughter,

2665
02:30:23,280 --> 02:30:28,120
Speaker 2: Jessica is living near Mary in England and she and

2666
02:30:28,280 --> 02:30:31,560
Speaker 2: Mary just made a duets album. They sound like sisters.

2667
02:30:31,640 --> 02:30:35,080
Speaker 2: They have the identical voice. My daughter has a voice

2668
02:30:35,120 --> 02:30:39,119
Speaker 2: from heaven just like Mary has. And she does gigs

2669
02:30:39,320 --> 02:30:41,880
Speaker 2: got She and her man who plays bass, they go

2670
02:30:41,959 --> 02:30:46,240
Speaker 2: out and do regular gigs all over England and they

2671
02:30:46,280 --> 02:30:50,080
Speaker 2: write songs, they release records. So that's side of the

2672
02:30:50,160 --> 02:30:55,920
Speaker 2: family is very musical. Now I'll move on to May.

2673
02:30:56,879 --> 02:31:00,760
Speaker 2: My two children with May are gifted as graphic artists.

2674
02:31:02,160 --> 02:31:06,400
Speaker 2: My daughter Lara is the youngest child. She's about thirty

2675
02:31:06,879 --> 02:31:10,440
Speaker 2: two or thirty three now, and I should know her

2676
02:31:10,520 --> 02:31:14,440
Speaker 2: rage really, but she does graphic work for many, many

2677
02:31:14,480 --> 02:31:19,000
Speaker 2: different companies, from designing their websites to actually if they

2678
02:31:19,080 --> 02:31:22,920
Speaker 2: have a new brand of talcum powder, she'll design the

2679
02:31:23,000 --> 02:31:25,640
Speaker 2: box and all the artwork that goes in. You know,

2680
02:31:25,720 --> 02:31:28,160
Speaker 2: this is a big job, you know, to make an

2681
02:31:28,400 --> 02:31:31,480
Speaker 2: iconic thing that'll catch the eye in a shop that'll sell.

2682
02:31:31,600 --> 02:31:35,359
Speaker 2: So she loves graphic art. And then my son Sebastian

2683
02:31:35,520 --> 02:31:39,360
Speaker 2: does his. He's got like the only one who does

2684
02:31:39,600 --> 02:31:43,279
Speaker 2: a normal nine to five job, but he does also

2685
02:31:44,200 --> 02:31:48,400
Speaker 2: he's into maga manga the Japanese are from and he

2686
02:31:48,480 --> 02:31:50,840
Speaker 2: does little comic books like that for his friends and

2687
02:31:51,440 --> 02:31:54,800
Speaker 2: sells them and stuff like that. But they're all autistic kids,

2688
02:31:56,480 --> 02:31:58,080
Speaker 2: and I love them all. I'm in touch with all

2689
02:31:58,120 --> 02:31:58,360
Speaker 2: of them.

2690
02:31:59,440 --> 02:32:03,720
Speaker 1: Okay, you started in Brooklyn, you ended up in London.

2691
02:32:04,760 --> 02:32:06,680
Speaker 1: Why are you in Manhattan now?

2692
02:32:10,160 --> 02:32:15,760
Speaker 2: Good question. In eighty nine, there was a huge recession worldwide,

2693
02:32:15,840 --> 02:32:19,120
Speaker 2: but it was very, very bad in the UK, and

2694
02:32:20,400 --> 02:32:23,560
Speaker 2: the studios were dropping like flies. And I had a

2695
02:32:23,640 --> 02:32:27,760
Speaker 2: really big studio. I had a responsible business that I

2696
02:32:27,879 --> 02:32:33,320
Speaker 2: was running, and I was in a neighborhood that had

2697
02:32:33,360 --> 02:32:36,320
Speaker 2: about maybe eight or nine recording studios and I saw

2698
02:32:36,400 --> 02:32:39,199
Speaker 2: them one by one. They were just closing shop forever.

2699
02:32:39,280 --> 02:32:42,640
Speaker 2: They just couldn't get any any clients. And then there

2700
02:32:42,680 --> 02:32:45,040
Speaker 2: was a guy called doctor Death who came around to

2701
02:32:45,200 --> 02:32:48,160
Speaker 2: my studio tried to get me to close my studio

2702
02:32:48,200 --> 02:32:51,280
Speaker 2: because he he did close the others. And he says, well,

2703
02:32:51,480 --> 02:32:54,120
Speaker 2: how about sell me some of your gear instead? You know,

2704
02:32:54,360 --> 02:32:56,640
Speaker 2: maybe do you need all your gear? I can, I'll

2705
02:32:56,680 --> 02:32:59,640
Speaker 2: take your microphones from you and things like that. And

2706
02:32:59,720 --> 02:33:02,400
Speaker 2: I told him to get lost. But the writing was

2707
02:33:02,480 --> 02:33:06,880
Speaker 2: on the wall. I knew that I had about bookings

2708
02:33:06,920 --> 02:33:09,760
Speaker 2: for the next two months. Besides myself, I would use

2709
02:33:09,800 --> 02:33:13,119
Speaker 2: it for my own productions, but I didn't work world,

2710
02:33:13,360 --> 02:33:16,080
Speaker 2: I didn't produce all the time, so I had other

2711
02:33:16,120 --> 02:33:18,720
Speaker 2: people come in and use a studio. Quite a few

2712
02:33:18,800 --> 02:33:20,920
Speaker 2: hit records. We made this in Lizzie and people like that.

2713
02:33:21,800 --> 02:33:24,880
Speaker 2: And I found a buyer who wanted to buy the

2714
02:33:24,920 --> 02:33:28,400
Speaker 2: whole studio, lock stock and barrel. He was a jingle guy,

2715
02:33:28,800 --> 02:33:32,360
Speaker 2: jingle house guy, and they called it Joe and Co.

2716
02:33:33,160 --> 02:33:36,480
Speaker 2: I just learned yesterday that Joe passed away. But they

2717
02:33:36,560 --> 02:33:39,119
Speaker 2: bought the studio for me and they turned it into

2718
02:33:39,200 --> 02:33:41,880
Speaker 2: the one of the biggest jingle houses in London. In fact,

2719
02:33:41,920 --> 02:33:45,280
Speaker 2: it was the big biggest jingle house in London. And

2720
02:33:45,680 --> 02:33:49,200
Speaker 2: even my son Morgan started working with them first and

2721
02:33:49,320 --> 02:33:52,200
Speaker 2: he got into the rhythm of writing jingles and what

2722
02:33:52,360 --> 02:33:55,680
Speaker 2: it takes to do that. But the studio still lives today.

2723
02:33:55,760 --> 02:34:01,480
Speaker 2: The studio that was came perilously close to closing. It's

2724
02:34:01,560 --> 02:34:06,560
Speaker 2: now owned by the Alvin Lee family. Alvin Lee blues guitarist,

2725
02:34:07,320 --> 02:34:10,640
Speaker 2: his daughter, his daughter and his wife owned the studio

2726
02:34:10,760 --> 02:34:12,680
Speaker 2: now and they run it like a really good business,

2727
02:34:13,120 --> 02:34:15,840
Speaker 2: and I'm entitled to use it anytime I want. Anytime

2728
02:34:15,879 --> 02:34:17,400
Speaker 2: I go to London, I can go in that place

2729
02:34:17,840 --> 02:34:19,640
Speaker 2: and it's it's walking through my history.

2730
02:34:19,720 --> 02:34:20,120
Speaker 1: Believe it.

2731
02:34:20,160 --> 02:34:23,800
Speaker 2: When I walk down those steps, I'm like hearing hazy

2732
02:34:23,879 --> 02:34:26,920
Speaker 2: fantasy thin Lizzie, all the things I recorded, all the

2733
02:34:26,959 --> 02:34:29,960
Speaker 2: great records I made. And the name of the studio

2734
02:34:30,040 --> 02:34:33,800
Speaker 2: when you owned it, it was called good Earth. And

2735
02:34:33,920 --> 02:34:37,120
Speaker 2: you know, Good Earth is a pearless buck pearlss buck

2736
02:34:37,200 --> 02:34:41,880
Speaker 2: book about China. And ironically I lived my studio was

2737
02:34:41,879 --> 02:34:44,720
Speaker 2: a block away from Chinatown in London, so we got

2738
02:34:44,720 --> 02:34:46,240
Speaker 2: a lot of calls at one in the morning for

2739
02:34:46,320 --> 02:34:50,879
Speaker 2: people wanting a late Chinese meal. There was another Chinese restaurant.

2740
02:34:51,440 --> 02:34:53,360
Speaker 2: You know, there were's quite a few Good Earths in

2741
02:34:53,400 --> 02:34:56,760
Speaker 2: the world, restaurants that call themselves good Earth, the Good Earth.

2742
02:34:57,560 --> 02:34:59,320
Speaker 1: So how do you end up back in the US?

2743
02:35:00,000 --> 02:35:02,480
Speaker 2: Well that was because of the recession. I sold my

2744
02:35:02,600 --> 02:35:05,400
Speaker 2: studio and got out and I went back. I was

2745
02:35:05,440 --> 02:35:09,240
Speaker 2: with May then. She always was good with money, and

2746
02:35:09,680 --> 02:35:12,000
Speaker 2: she realized, she says, that's the best thing you could do,

2747
02:35:12,560 --> 02:35:15,440
Speaker 2: because you'll be broken six months. You're not going to

2748
02:35:15,480 --> 02:35:18,080
Speaker 2: get any more clients, that studio is going to shut down.

2749
02:35:18,440 --> 02:35:20,520
Speaker 2: But for a jingle house, it was perfect. He didn't

2750
02:35:20,560 --> 02:35:24,039
Speaker 2: rely on clients like musicians, you know, he just wanted

2751
02:35:24,120 --> 02:35:28,920
Speaker 2: people who wanted adverts made. And we got on a plane.

2752
02:35:29,440 --> 02:35:33,240
Speaker 2: I said goodbye to my house, my studio and moved

2753
02:35:33,280 --> 02:35:36,800
Speaker 2: to New York. At first in her place, she had

2754
02:35:36,840 --> 02:35:41,320
Speaker 2: a controlled rent place in Manhattan on eighty ninth Street

2755
02:35:41,959 --> 02:35:45,800
Speaker 2: between Third and Second Avenue, Manhattan, So we lived there

2756
02:35:45,840 --> 02:35:48,800
Speaker 2: for a while until children started to come from that marriage,

2757
02:35:48,800 --> 02:35:51,600
Speaker 2: and then we had to move to other places. But

2758
02:35:51,959 --> 02:35:53,520
Speaker 2: it was great. It was great to be back. I

2759
02:35:53,600 --> 02:35:56,920
Speaker 2: had to literally start all over again because most people

2760
02:35:57,040 --> 02:36:00,720
Speaker 2: didn't know who I was with whatever great reputation I

2761
02:36:00,800 --> 02:36:05,039
Speaker 2: had made in London and the rest of the world.

2762
02:36:05,160 --> 02:36:09,280
Speaker 2: Americans just you know, oh oh you did Bangagong that one,

2763
02:36:09,480 --> 02:36:13,560
Speaker 2: you know, that was it, you know, And so that's

2764
02:36:13,600 --> 02:36:15,280
Speaker 2: how I ended up back there, and you know, my

2765
02:36:15,760 --> 02:36:19,920
Speaker 2: career did pick up afterwards. I'm still making records all

2766
02:36:19,959 --> 02:36:23,560
Speaker 2: the time, working with some great people, discovering new artists.

2767
02:36:24,200 --> 02:36:25,560
Speaker 2: Did you know about my box set?

2768
02:36:27,360 --> 02:36:30,760
Speaker 1: Yes? I did. That's what inspired me to do this podcast.

2769
02:36:31,000 --> 02:36:34,640
Speaker 2: But you can do a little commercial, Oh well, I've

2770
02:36:34,720 --> 02:36:39,160
Speaker 2: got a box set of six vinyls or four CDs,

2771
02:36:39,200 --> 02:36:41,960
Speaker 2: whichever one's you want to buy. But I was approached

2772
02:36:41,959 --> 02:36:45,240
Speaker 2: by Demon Records about a year ago saying they would

2773
02:36:45,320 --> 02:36:48,080
Speaker 2: like to do this, and I had this idea about

2774
02:36:48,120 --> 02:36:51,080
Speaker 2: five or ten years ago. But the time is right now.

2775
02:36:51,120 --> 02:36:55,360
Speaker 2: It actually never came off before, but by now I'm

2776
02:36:55,480 --> 02:36:59,920
Speaker 2: seventy nine years old. I had to have a pretty

2777
02:37:00,200 --> 02:37:04,040
Speaker 2: dense history behind me. I've worked with I must have

2778
02:37:04,120 --> 02:37:07,760
Speaker 2: made about five hundred albums. I've must have produced over

2779
02:37:07,840 --> 02:37:12,160
Speaker 2: two thousand songs, individual songs, and now's the time. I'm

2780
02:37:12,200 --> 02:37:17,359
Speaker 2: really proud of this album. It's got some iconic records

2781
02:37:17,400 --> 02:37:20,360
Speaker 2: that Americans might not have heard. But I had a

2782
02:37:20,480 --> 02:37:23,160
Speaker 2: big spate of hits in the eighties in Britain with

2783
02:37:23,280 --> 02:37:29,520
Speaker 2: Adamant Altered Images, a lot of British and my studio

2784
02:37:29,560 --> 02:37:33,280
Speaker 2: we turned into a literally a hit factory. I was

2785
02:37:33,320 --> 02:37:37,280
Speaker 2: there every day, new group, every day, Dexi's Midnight Runners like.

2786
02:37:37,400 --> 02:37:39,600
Speaker 2: I did a lot of stuff in the eighties and

2787
02:37:39,720 --> 02:37:43,560
Speaker 2: that's well represented on this box set. And then someone

2788
02:37:43,640 --> 02:37:46,320
Speaker 2: pointed out to me, but you left this off, you

2789
02:37:46,440 --> 02:37:48,720
Speaker 2: left that off, you left that off, and one group

2790
02:37:48,800 --> 02:37:53,160
Speaker 2: I'm very proud of was Ossi Bisa. It's the first

2791
02:37:53,680 --> 02:37:59,440
Speaker 2: Anglo African group ever. It came from Kenya and we

2792
02:37:59,600 --> 02:38:02,240
Speaker 2: made the first two albums we made were massive hits

2793
02:38:02,320 --> 02:38:05,000
Speaker 2: for them in the UK and also in America. There's

2794
02:38:05,080 --> 02:38:08,000
Speaker 2: not one Osibisas song on this album. So now I

2795
02:38:08,080 --> 02:38:09,800
Speaker 2: have to go back to demon Now they don't know this,

2796
02:38:09,920 --> 02:38:12,039
Speaker 2: but I want to do a volume two and make

2797
02:38:12,120 --> 02:38:14,480
Speaker 2: sure you know. There's plenty of other records to get

2798
02:38:14,520 --> 02:38:16,720
Speaker 2: on there, but I want to make sure Osibisa gets

2799
02:38:16,760 --> 02:38:18,960
Speaker 2: on the next one because I'm very, very proud of

2800
02:38:19,040 --> 02:38:22,280
Speaker 2: that work. It was groundbreaking work. You never heard of

2801
02:38:22,520 --> 02:38:26,360
Speaker 2: an African rock band before until Osibisa.

2802
02:38:27,040 --> 02:38:29,440
Speaker 1: Well, they have the covers by Roger Dean, the same

2803
02:38:29,480 --> 02:38:30,680
Speaker 1: guy who did the Yes covers.

2804
02:38:31,400 --> 02:38:35,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, those are great, those covers. They are iconic covers.

2805
02:38:37,040 --> 02:38:40,680
Speaker 1: Okay, So you have this long history, but you have

2806
02:38:40,800 --> 02:38:44,560
Speaker 1: a similar perspective that I have, except even more information

2807
02:38:44,760 --> 02:38:48,600
Speaker 1: from the fifties and early sixties. You're excited about these

2808
02:38:48,640 --> 02:38:52,760
Speaker 1: women you met at Weeperbond, But are as you as

2809
02:38:52,920 --> 02:38:56,320
Speaker 1: excited about the music as ever? And what do you

2810
02:38:56,440 --> 02:38:59,440
Speaker 1: think about music and its power and influence and where

2811
02:38:59,480 --> 02:39:00,320
Speaker 1: it's going today?

2812
02:39:02,560 --> 02:39:06,600
Speaker 2: Well, Back in my day, music was a culture and

2813
02:39:07,200 --> 02:39:10,320
Speaker 2: record labels they couldn't wait to be invited to the

2814
02:39:10,400 --> 02:39:13,879
Speaker 2: recording session and sit in and watching a hit being made,

2815
02:39:13,959 --> 02:39:17,040
Speaker 2: watching an album being made. Even you know, even though

2816
02:39:17,640 --> 02:39:21,520
Speaker 2: money was to be made by these records, even the

2817
02:39:21,640 --> 02:39:25,920
Speaker 2: executives felt like they they would be attending ay a

2818
02:39:26,040 --> 02:39:28,560
Speaker 2: history making recording session. They used to come to the

2819
02:39:28,640 --> 02:39:31,760
Speaker 2: sessions and then when the record it came time to

2820
02:39:31,840 --> 02:39:34,680
Speaker 2: promote it, they would put a huge budget in the promotion.

2821
02:39:34,920 --> 02:39:38,039
Speaker 2: And that's just the way things were in those days.

2822
02:39:39,600 --> 02:39:42,520
Speaker 2: And the freakier album you can make, the better. The

2823
02:39:42,600 --> 02:39:45,920
Speaker 2: freaky of the album was, the better. They wanted new sounds,

2824
02:39:46,080 --> 02:39:49,600
Speaker 2: different things. Bowie could be as radical as he could,

2825
02:39:49,840 --> 02:39:53,360
Speaker 2: and you know, Mark Bowling could do say outrageous things

2826
02:39:53,400 --> 02:39:56,120
Speaker 2: in the press. They loved all that stuff because it

2827
02:39:56,320 --> 02:40:01,360
Speaker 2: was a culture move. Speed up these days. The difference

2828
02:40:01,360 --> 02:40:04,640
Speaker 2: between these days is the bottom line is money right now,

2829
02:40:04,959 --> 02:40:09,360
Speaker 2: it's really money, money, money, and they have to make

2830
02:40:09,640 --> 02:40:12,840
Speaker 2: a sound alike records to get that money. So the

2831
02:40:13,080 --> 02:40:17,440
Speaker 2: hire producers very very clever young people who work from

2832
02:40:17,560 --> 02:40:21,920
Speaker 2: laptops mainly. And everything's in the everything's in the box now,

2833
02:40:22,000 --> 02:40:26,280
Speaker 2: like you would probably The only human being on today's

2834
02:40:26,320 --> 02:40:30,560
Speaker 2: records might be just the singer. Everything else is programmed,

2835
02:40:30,640 --> 02:40:33,720
Speaker 2: you know, a fake guitar, a fake bass, fake drums,

2836
02:40:34,360 --> 02:40:38,400
Speaker 2: a swirling synthesizer sounds, and a chorus that goes on

2837
02:40:39,160 --> 02:40:45,039
Speaker 2: forever until you're sick of it. You know, Oh my god,

2838
02:40:45,120 --> 02:40:45,720
Speaker 2: what can I say?

2839
02:40:45,879 --> 02:40:45,920
Speaker 1: So?

2840
02:40:46,080 --> 02:40:49,200
Speaker 2: I mean, I kind of within this climate, I still

2841
02:40:49,240 --> 02:40:51,280
Speaker 2: have people who want to work with me. I wish

2842
02:40:51,360 --> 02:40:53,920
Speaker 2: I could tell you the name of this famous jazz

2843
02:40:54,000 --> 02:40:57,320
Speaker 2: pianist player that I'm making a record with. She swore

2844
02:40:57,440 --> 02:41:01,040
Speaker 2: me to secrecy, but I just gave away thee to you.

2845
02:41:01,200 --> 02:41:05,440
Speaker 2: But I'm making a fantastic record with this person. And

2846
02:41:06,240 --> 02:41:09,039
Speaker 2: there's still that market. There's people who love great music,

2847
02:41:09,520 --> 02:41:12,560
Speaker 2: and people who are true artists are still being supported

2848
02:41:12,600 --> 02:41:15,320
Speaker 2: by their fans and by labels too, because you know,

2849
02:41:15,400 --> 02:41:17,560
Speaker 2: a great artist can sell a lot of records. It

2850
02:41:17,640 --> 02:41:20,480
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be a Beyonce kind of record or

2851
02:41:20,600 --> 02:41:22,920
Speaker 2: a Taylor Swift kind of record. It could be a

2852
02:41:23,040 --> 02:41:27,320
Speaker 2: record of extreme autistic merit and it could sell. And

2853
02:41:27,440 --> 02:41:30,160
Speaker 2: I'm that kind of a producer. I'm this is my

2854
02:41:30,360 --> 02:41:33,800
Speaker 2: sixth decade and I learned a lot of shit in

2855
02:41:33,879 --> 02:41:39,080
Speaker 2: my life By six decade, I could still pull rabbits

2856
02:41:39,080 --> 02:41:40,080
Speaker 2: out of the hat for people.

2857
02:41:42,800 --> 02:41:45,120
Speaker 1: This has been utterly fantastic. I could talk to you

2858
02:41:45,240 --> 02:41:46,360
Speaker 1: for another three hours.

2859
02:41:46,560 --> 02:41:46,760
Speaker 2: I know.

2860
02:41:48,000 --> 02:41:51,440
Speaker 1: I can see why you're successful. You're a very charming guy,

2861
02:41:51,720 --> 02:41:54,320
Speaker 1: very friendly. It's funny you just see a name on

2862
02:41:54,440 --> 02:41:57,400
Speaker 1: a record cover, you have no idea who the person is.

2863
02:41:58,240 --> 02:42:04,240
Speaker 1: And you're great rock and tour. Really, you're just fucking great, Tony.

2864
02:42:04,320 --> 02:42:06,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not blowing smoke up your ass because

2865
02:42:06,640 --> 02:42:08,840
Speaker 1: you never really know. And I said, you know, like

2866
02:42:08,920 --> 02:42:12,120
Speaker 1: after like five bits ago, this guy is great. It's like,

2867
02:42:12,280 --> 02:42:14,680
Speaker 1: well it stay this good, and it did. So I

2868
02:42:14,800 --> 02:42:16,720
Speaker 1: want to thank you for taking the time to talk

2869
02:42:16,760 --> 02:42:17,520
Speaker 1: to my audience.

2870
02:42:18,120 --> 02:42:19,880
Speaker 2: Well, if you're a sweetheart, I love you.

2871
02:42:21,600 --> 02:42:25,080
Speaker 1: It's all true. That's one reputation I have. I speak

2872
02:42:25,120 --> 02:42:25,600
Speaker 1: by truth.

2873
02:42:26,000 --> 02:42:28,280
Speaker 2: They said, be careful what you tell him. He's going

2874
02:42:28,360 --> 02:42:30,120
Speaker 2: to ask you these questions. I said, well, I've got

2875
02:42:30,200 --> 02:42:30,840
Speaker 2: nothing to hide.

2876
02:42:31,600 --> 02:42:35,080
Speaker 1: You know this is you know, Mike, the whole thing

2877
02:42:35,160 --> 02:42:37,320
Speaker 1: with this is not gotcha anyway, not that I would

2878
02:42:37,480 --> 02:42:39,760
Speaker 1: I would even know what gotcha to ask you? As

2879
02:42:39,800 --> 02:42:42,400
Speaker 1: you say, you have nothing to hide, but you know

2880
02:42:42,560 --> 02:42:46,320
Speaker 1: you were there and you've told some of those stories

2881
02:42:46,360 --> 02:42:49,320
Speaker 1: that people don't know. Not to mention your history.

2882
02:42:49,800 --> 02:42:50,640
Speaker 2: People need to know.

2883
02:42:51,160 --> 02:42:53,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I can see why you connect with BOYD.

2884
02:42:53,959 --> 02:42:55,959
Speaker 1: People want to work with You're a good guy, good hang,

2885
02:42:56,280 --> 02:42:59,040
Speaker 1: irrelevant of your talent. Yeah, that guy is fun to

2886
02:42:59,120 --> 02:43:02,400
Speaker 1: have around. And he's not like a Sicka fan either.

2887
02:43:02,640 --> 02:43:04,880
Speaker 2: I always love your podcast. I listened to you you bought.

2888
02:43:04,959 --> 02:43:08,640
Speaker 2: Podcasts are great. You know they're so different from others.

2889
02:43:08,800 --> 02:43:11,520
Speaker 2: You know that you don't have one. You're the only

2890
02:43:11,640 --> 02:43:15,240
Speaker 2: string running through everything you know, and you do great interviews. Bob,

2891
02:43:15,400 --> 02:43:15,920
Speaker 2: I'm a fan.

2892
02:43:16,760 --> 02:43:21,600
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I'll just leave it at that, So Tony,

2893
02:43:21,879 --> 02:43:25,600
Speaker 1: I want to thank you again. Till next time. This

2894
02:43:25,800 --> 02:43:26,920
Speaker 1: is Bob left Sets