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Speaker 1: independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a health
Speaker 1: care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
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Speaker 1: episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people.
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Speaker 1: Heart Media, or their employees. And we wrote vows. It
Speaker 1: was very important to him that we both wrote wedding vows.
Speaker 1: And I thought, wow, that is so romantic, and he
Speaker 1: hands me a stack of paper and what he had
Speaker 1: actually stayed up all night writing was a pre nup.
Speaker 1: But this was not a normal prain up. It had
Speaker 1: things in there like if I were to ever get pregnant,
Speaker 1: I had to return to pre pregnancy weight within one year. Hi,
Speaker 1: I'm Dr Rominey, and this is navigating narcissism. In this podcast,
Speaker 1: we'll learn how to heal from the narcissist in your
Speaker 1: life from the people who know this territory the best
Speaker 1: the survivors. In this episode, we are going to hear
Speaker 1: the story of Tina Swidden. Tina is a survivor of
Speaker 1: an abusive marriage, post separation abuse, and a painful journey
Speaker 1: to the family court system. Her story is one of
Speaker 1: perseverance through a relationship that seemed perfect at the start
Speaker 1: but went downhill, ending in a long court battle. Today,
Speaker 1: Tina is working to raise awareness of these issues in
Speaker 1: the family court system. She works with survivors and educates
Speaker 1: the general public post separation abuse and narcissistic abuse. Hey, Tina, Welcome, Welcome,
Speaker 1: How are you. I am doing well and I'm so
Speaker 1: excited to be here. Well, I'm deeply honored because you know,
Speaker 1: I not only am all struck by your expertise, but
Speaker 1: you know, I very much consider you a friend. So
Speaker 1: it's an honor of times to to have you here
Speaker 1: on the podcast. So thank you so much for doing
Speaker 1: this and for sharing your story, which is incredibly empowering.
Speaker 1: But also it's unbelievable that you're able to talk about
Speaker 1: it again and again because of how difficult it is.
Speaker 1: So thank you. Thank you, So Tina. I want to
Speaker 1: start at the very beginning and go back to literally
Speaker 1: when you first met your ex husband, and I want
Speaker 1: to understand what about the new life with your ex
Speaker 1: husband drew you in the most. I think it was
Speaker 1: the presentation and what he had to offer me, and
Speaker 1: how kind and considerate and caring he seemed to be.
Speaker 1: I had never dated anyone that was as thoughtful as
Speaker 1: he was, and coming from a very broken home life,
Speaker 1: difficult childhood, I really put both he and his family
Speaker 1: up on a pedestal. They were, you know, an intact family.
Speaker 1: They seemed very healthy, very happy, very involved in the community,
Speaker 1: very educated. It was really a picture of stability. Interesting
Speaker 1: how compelling that idea of stability was. Let's pause a
Speaker 1: second and allow me to break this down a little more.
Speaker 1: One of the ways that narcissistic relationships can sneak up
Speaker 1: on us is when they represent something we have never
Speaker 1: experienced and are an offset to the difficult parts of
Speaker 1: our life histories. People who come from dysfunctional families may
Speaker 1: be really drawn to what seemed like healthier people or families,
Speaker 1: or people who can pretend to be those things. If
Speaker 1: a person craves stability or has never had it, then
Speaker 1: stability can be really seductive. So from there, Tina, you
Speaker 1: chose to go with your therapist advice at the time
Speaker 1: by deciding to start dating him because she said you
Speaker 1: were not used to people treating you well. How did
Speaker 1: following your therapist advice shape where your life ended up? Wow?
Speaker 1: You know, when I had taken a full year off
Speaker 1: from dating and really put myself into therapy, I wanted
Speaker 1: to work through past baggage from childhood, from my upbringing,
Speaker 1: and I didn't want to carry that into future relationships.
Speaker 1: And I remember going to her and telling her, you know,
Speaker 1: this person seems too good to be true, but for
Speaker 1: some reason, I'm not attracted to him at all. And honestly,
Speaker 1: the thought of even kissing him it felt almost repulsive.
Speaker 1: I just could not imagine being intimate with this person.
Speaker 1: And I remember her telling me, you're just not accustomed
Speaker 1: to a normal adult, healthy relationship, and so you may
Speaker 1: have to push yourself a little bit out of your
Speaker 1: comfort zone. And when she said that to me, it
Speaker 1: actually made complete sense, and I thought, you know, that
Speaker 1: is probably what's happening, and so I overrode my instincts
Speaker 1: and pushed myself forward, and I thought, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: being superficial I'm being vain because I'm not physically attracted
Speaker 1: to this person, and that there's more to a relationship
Speaker 1: than just physical attraction, and so I really pushed. You know. Now,
Speaker 1: in hindsight, I can see that was my intuitions screaming loudly.
Speaker 1: That is so wild. You're right, you framed at us.
Speaker 1: Was I being superficial? But it does make me wonder
Speaker 1: if somewhere there was this instinct that was screaming out
Speaker 1: that in some ways you were sort of told to silence.
Speaker 1: So many people have asked me, Dr Rominey, how do
Speaker 1: I detect a narcissist as early as possible. They're always
Speaker 1: looking for a question they could ask or tell they
Speaker 1: can look for, but I always tell them listen to
Speaker 1: your body. Our brain, frankly, often gaslights our body. Our
Speaker 1: body may not feel comfortable when we meet a new
Speaker 1: narcissistic person, but we often talk ourselves out of that feeling,
Speaker 1: or other people talk us out of it. Tina's body
Speaker 1: was telling her something, and most of us often don't
Speaker 1: listen to those instincts that we feel about a person
Speaker 1: early on. And I have actually stayed in touch with
Speaker 1: my therapists from back then and she has read my
Speaker 1: book and has said, you know, these are things I
Speaker 1: never learned in school, and so she's learned a lot
Speaker 1: from my journey, from my experience, you sort of silence
Speaker 1: this physical instinct at one point that was trying to
Speaker 1: help you. So Tina raises something really important here. For
Speaker 1: all the havoc that narcissistic people reak in our lives
Speaker 1: and our relationships, not all therapists understand narcissistic relationships because
Speaker 1: this stuff isn't taught in school. That can mean that
Speaker 1: a person going through a narcissistic relationship is going to
Speaker 1: therapy and clearly describing their relationship, and the therapist may
Speaker 1: simply just not have a playbook for a narcissistic relationship
Speaker 1: to be able to help the client. Now, I love
Speaker 1: this quote from your blog quote, red flags are only
Speaker 1: seen while reflecting on the relationship in the rear view mirror.
Speaker 1: Take us through some of the red flags that you
Speaker 1: only realized were really read later and how you weren't
Speaker 1: able to see them at first. One of the first
Speaker 1: dates that we had, we were driving about an hour
Speaker 1: away from our home. He was taking me out to
Speaker 1: dinner and he didn't tell me where we were going.
Speaker 1: He wanted it to be a surprise. I didn't know
Speaker 1: this person. He told me, the only thing you need
Speaker 1: to bring is your driver's license in case we go
Speaker 1: out after dinner, And so I got into his car trusting,
Speaker 1: and after dinner we had had a few drinks and
Speaker 1: had the hour drive back home, and I had warned
Speaker 1: him I fall asleep in the car. So I fell asleep.
Speaker 1: Next thing I know, I heard the tires of his
Speaker 1: car pull off into gravel. And when I woke up,
Speaker 1: we were up on the top of the mountain in
Speaker 1: the middle of nowhere, overlooking a city, and it was
Speaker 1: pitch black out. I froze and I panicked, and I
Speaker 1: instantly thought, I've made a really bad decision. I put
Speaker 1: myself in a really dangerous situation. And I remember asking him,
Speaker 1: why why are we stopped? Can we please leave? And
Speaker 1: he said, I want to show you the view. I
Speaker 1: want to show you the city from up here. And
Speaker 1: it made me so uncomfortable. But then again I'm second
Speaker 1: guessing myself, thinking you're being too paranoid. This is such
Speaker 1: a nice guy. He did all the right things, set
Speaker 1: all the right things at dinner. Then he gave me
Speaker 1: the silent treatment the whole way home because of how
Speaker 1: I reacted and looking back, a healthy, considerate human would
Speaker 1: not have put me in a situation like that, And
Speaker 1: so that was the very first red flag on our date.
Speaker 1: But again because I came from a background where I
Speaker 1: did not have healthy relationships and I had a lot
Speaker 1: of self doubt, that took over. And so then I
Speaker 1: started beating myself up, thinking why are you so critical
Speaker 1: of him? You know? So again it's over writing my intuition.
Speaker 1: Many people might say, oh, it's a surprise, isn't that romantic?
Speaker 1: And yet you saw it as that. It felt unsettling.
Speaker 1: And then to be taken in the dark somewhere someone
Speaker 1: you didn't know. Again, a lot of people say so romantic,
Speaker 1: but not so much. It almost felt like there wasn't
Speaker 1: even that much consent. Yes, you were just taken and
Speaker 1: you had nothing to say about it. We tend to
Speaker 1: over romanticize surprises, being taken somewhere and not knowing what
Speaker 1: it's going to be. It all feels very wrong calm,
Speaker 1: But when you think about it really early in a relationship,
Speaker 1: before you know someone, it may all also be a
Speaker 1: bit controlling and even unsettling Because a surprise is supposed
Speaker 1: to be so exciting. People will often feel guilty for
Speaker 1: viewing a heavily planned surprise as a red flag. And
Speaker 1: another red flag popped up here, the silent treatment when
Speaker 1: she didn't give him the reaction he wanted for his surprise.
Speaker 1: When people are this thin skinned, that is a bad sign.
Speaker 1: Were there any other red flags, Tina, that jumped out
Speaker 1: at you from not even just the early days, but
Speaker 1: weeks months of the relationship that looking back, you're like, Wow,
Speaker 1: that was a red banner. Looking back, what I now
Speaker 1: know to be love bombing was extreme, and even the
Speaker 1: stories I hear now I sometimes reflect back on how
Speaker 1: over the top it truly was. The first week we
Speaker 1: started dating, I would go out to my car at
Speaker 1: seven am to get ready and go to work, and
Speaker 1: there would be poetry on my window shield. There would
Speaker 1: be a dozen red roses delivered to my office stays
Speaker 1: after I met this person. Wow, the poetry, the roses,
Speaker 1: and all within a week of your first day. I'm
Speaker 1: going to take a moment now to explain what love
Speaker 1: bombing is. Love Bombing is this process of seduction and idealization,
Speaker 1: and it sweeps a person away into something that feels
Speaker 1: like a fairy tale. Now, Unfortunately, while you're being love bombed,
Speaker 1: you can easily miss the red flags. Love bombing, though,
Speaker 1: is often a part of abusive and narcissistic relationship cycles,
Speaker 1: and it is exciting as all of this may seem.
Speaker 1: The love bombing should absolutely be a red flag. Absolutely
Speaker 1: when the love bombing manifest says stuff being left on
Speaker 1: your windshield, on your doorstep, or flowers to your workplace
Speaker 1: really early on, once again, big red flag. There's something
Speaker 1: sort of surveillancey about it that they're rolling by your
Speaker 1: spot and making their presence known in your workplace. It's
Speaker 1: like they're marking their territory. I know I sound like
Speaker 1: the anti Cupid pointing out these things, but a week
Speaker 1: in finding stuff on your windshield maybe a sign of
Speaker 1: more obsessive behavior and not just healthy interest. Tina, what
Speaker 1: were some of the other ways that he loved bombed you?
Speaker 1: I remember after first date he called me a couple
Speaker 1: of days later and said, I want you to take
Speaker 1: the whole day off of work. I've called in to
Speaker 1: the local day spa. I've put my credit card down.
Speaker 1: You have a full day of services booked for you.
Speaker 1: It was so much that I truly didn't have time
Speaker 1: to think or to self reflect. It was just constant
Speaker 1: and truly overwhelming. But again, overwriting intuition, I thought, this
Speaker 1: is what it's like to date an adult male. I've
Speaker 1: only dated I was twenty six years old. I had
Speaker 1: a history of dating bad boys and you know, not
Speaker 1: the healthiest of relationships. And so I thought, this is
Speaker 1: what adult dating must be like, and sign me up.
Speaker 1: If if this is what it is, it's amazing. So
Speaker 1: let's unpack this. Love Bombing is exciting and it can
Speaker 1: be amazing, but as Tina said, it's also overwhelming, and
Speaker 1: so we don't even get a second to process all
Speaker 1: that's happening. And the tough part of love bombing is
Speaker 1: that anyone looking at this relationship from the outside would
Speaker 1: think that you're lucky. So calling red flags out while
Speaker 1: you are being love bomb may literally feel impossible for
Speaker 1: many people, especially for people who may not have had
Speaker 1: these experiences in prior relationships. There was another major red
Speaker 1: flag Tina that jumped out, which was a pre nup
Speaker 1: that you didn't sign. Can you sort of frame that
Speaker 1: as a red flag because it certainly seemed to be,
Speaker 1: but can you talk to us a little bit about
Speaker 1: that episode. Right before we went on this vacation to Maui,
Speaker 1: I had lost my mom to suicide, and so I
Speaker 1: was in this state of emotional turmoil. You know, it
Speaker 1: was very much a fog. And he suggested we fly
Speaker 1: off to Hawaii and spend a week there. I had
Speaker 1: never been. I thought that was so exciting and a good,
Speaker 1: you know, place for me to just take a breather.
Speaker 1: A few days into our trip, he proposed to me.
Speaker 1: Not only that, he said, let's not tell anyone, and
Speaker 1: let's get married while we're here. So I'm away from
Speaker 1: friends and family, I can't call anybody. He doesn't want
Speaker 1: anyone to know. He planned the wedding within a two
Speaker 1: day period of time. He was insistent that it was
Speaker 1: a man who married us. He did not want a female.
Speaker 1: That should have been a red flag. And we went
Speaker 1: to dinner the night before and we wrote vows. It
Speaker 1: was very important to him that we both wrote wedding vows.
Speaker 1: So we did that, and then we get back to
Speaker 1: our hotel and he said, you know, go ahead and
Speaker 1: go to bed. I want to continue working on my vows.
Speaker 1: And I thought, wow, that is so romantic. And he
Speaker 1: hands me a stack of paper and what he had
Speaker 1: actually stayed up all night writing was a pre nup.
Speaker 1: But this was not a normal prenup. It had things
Speaker 1: in there, like if I were to ever get pregnant,
Speaker 1: I had to return to pre pregnancy weight within one year.
Speaker 1: If our marriage failed with in the first five years,
Speaker 1: I had to give the wedding ring back to him.
Speaker 1: If the marriage lasted eight years, we split the wedding
Speaker 1: ring whatever it sold for. If we made it past
Speaker 1: the ten year mark, the wedding ring was mine to keep.
Speaker 1: And it went on and on and on, and I
Speaker 1: remember sitting there. I walked over to a curb and
Speaker 1: I am sitting on a curb, crying and basically some
Speaker 1: explatives and and shoved it back at him and said,
Speaker 1: I'm not doing this. And I didn't even read. I
Speaker 1: just skinned it. But what I did skim was mind
Speaker 1: blowing to me. And I told him I'm not marrying
Speaker 1: you and this is this is insane. And he ended
Speaker 1: up apologizing, begging profusely that we just go on with
Speaker 1: our day, go on with the ceremony, and so I
Speaker 1: didn't sign it. Yeah, that should have sent me running
Speaker 1: for the hills of MAUI. Narcissistic entitlement can often come
Speaker 1: out in a pre nup. While pre nuptial agreements in
Speaker 1: and of themselves aren't an issue, in the hands of
Speaker 1: a narcissistic person, a pre nup can be punitive and
Speaker 1: titled and manipulative. In some ways. The devious nous of
Speaker 1: a narcissistic prenup is a real hint of what a
Speaker 1: mess a divorce from a narcissist is going to be.
Speaker 1: Just from my curiosity, if you had gained ten pounds
Speaker 1: after a pregnancy, then what did you have to pay
Speaker 1: like a penalty? I have no idea, but I will
Speaker 1: tell you that was really what put our marriage in
Speaker 1: a downward spiral, because I did gain ten pounds and
Speaker 1: I didn't lose that that ten pounds right within the
Speaker 1: one year mark. But the gifts that I received after
Speaker 1: I gave birth were how to get perfect to abs.
Speaker 1: I got a new road bike, which I don't bike.
Speaker 1: I got running shoes, I got signed up for five
Speaker 1: ks and ten k's new jogging strollers. And he ended
Speaker 1: up moving into a second bedroom after the birth of
Speaker 1: our second daughter because he was repulsed by it was
Speaker 1: probably fifteen pounds, but compared to the one and ten
Speaker 1: person he married, it was unacceptable and in his mind grotesque.
Speaker 1: Now that you talk about it, you know, people would say,
Speaker 1: that's beyond a red flag, like you know, that's like
Speaker 1: a red like a red cover a football stadium in
Speaker 1: one banner, like skin seat from the sun kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Narcissistic gift giving can be really messed up. It's typically
Speaker 1: quite self serving. They will often give gifts that are
Speaker 1: consistent with their lifestyle and their interests, and for example,
Speaker 1: Tina getting a bike and running shoes that you didn't need,
Speaker 1: or relate to how they want their partner to look,
Speaker 1: or give lavish gifts so they can get praised by
Speaker 1: the world. Wow, what a great, amazing piece of jewelry
Speaker 1: you gave, or something like that. But narcissists really give
Speaker 1: gifts from a place of empathy or thoughtfulness about what
Speaker 1: the other person wants. In fact, in this case, Tina
Speaker 1: got gifts that almost felt punitive. Yeah, get those flat
Speaker 1: abs back. But as you were talking about red flags,
Speaker 1: you said, so many things were happening so quickly you
Speaker 1: almost wouldn't have had the time to notice these things.
Speaker 1: As red flags like it was just sounded like there
Speaker 1: was an intensity and a quickness to this relationship. So
Speaker 1: there isn't even enough time to process the information. No,
Speaker 1: but you start going in deeper and deeper, and then
Speaker 1: it starts to becoming I couldn't leave even if I
Speaker 1: wanted to. I have basically sold everything I owned. I
Speaker 1: am dependent on him because he wanted me to quit
Speaker 1: work go back to college, and so it was in
Speaker 1: a very short period of time he pushed me into
Speaker 1: completely being dependent on him in pretty much all areas
Speaker 1: of our life. You know this as well as anybody
Speaker 1: out there. Tina. This idea of making someone financially dependent
Speaker 1: on them, that's one of many dynamics of a toxic
Speaker 1: relationship or toxic marriage with a narcissist when you look,
Speaker 1: especially at the early days of this marriage, because already
Speaker 1: the financial dependency was being created early. What are the
Speaker 1: other dynamics of a toxic relationship that you were observing
Speaker 1: in your own marriage? Whittling in a way at my
Speaker 1: self esteem in a very covert way. It wasn't outright
Speaker 1: calling me names or saying negative things about me. He
Speaker 1: would say them about other people. My self esteem was
Speaker 1: non existent. Everything I had worked for a year in
Speaker 1: therapy to build up one is beneath him wasn't good enough.
Speaker 1: And I remember any time I would be on a
Speaker 1: phone call with someone or talking to someone at one
Speaker 1: of his work events, he would then tell me the
Speaker 1: whole way home what I said wrong, why I shouldn't
Speaker 1: have said this, why I shouldn't have said that, to
Speaker 1: where I truly became quiet. So you're slowly being taken apart,
Speaker 1: that's what I'm hearing. Absolutely, a toxic relationship is death
Speaker 1: by a thousand cuts. These are relationships where a person's
Speaker 1: wings are clipped one feather at a time. They mesodically
Speaker 1: play upon any existing narrative you have of being not
Speaker 1: good enough. They will scrutinize you and belittle you and
Speaker 1: criticize you, and all of this is a slow indoctrination
Speaker 1: into domination and control. The smaller they can make you feel,
Speaker 1: the bigger they believe they are. My mom had bipolar
Speaker 1: disorder and ended up taking her life, and he knew
Speaker 1: how afraid I was because I had read that it
Speaker 1: was genetic. Back then, I didn't know a lot about it,
Speaker 1: and he would constantly use that to taunt me because
Speaker 1: we had a very difficult relationship because of her addiction
Speaker 1: to drugs and just the choices she made in life,
Speaker 1: and she wasn't a part of my life. But what
Speaker 1: I knew from a distance terrified me, and he used
Speaker 1: that to constantly. You know, I can think of one example,
Speaker 1: when my mom actually died, I found out, and it
Speaker 1: was a phone call. I expected my whole life because
Speaker 1: of the path she had been on. I was in
Speaker 1: fetal position, crying, and he walked in and he looked
Speaker 1: at me and said, I don't understand why you're so upset.
Speaker 1: You weren't even close with her. And I started realizing
Speaker 1: that any time I had any type of emotional reaction,
Speaker 1: he thought I was unhind or unstable, and so it
Speaker 1: started creating doubt in me. You know, am, I is
Speaker 1: something wrong with me? Doubting and judging your emotion, questioning
Speaker 1: your grief, and then portraying you as unstable for having
Speaker 1: any kind of emotional reaction. That is gaslighting, plane and simple,
Speaker 1: and it's also emotional abuse. Tina, you said something so interesting.
Speaker 1: You said were married in secret in Hawaii. We didn't
Speaker 1: tell anyone. We know you proposed and boom, you were
Speaker 1: you were, It wasn't Usually there's some space which in
Speaker 1: proposal on a wedding, And once he was willing to
Speaker 1: get rid of the ridiculous pre nup, you went ahead
Speaker 1: and got married. Why did you get married in secret?
Speaker 1: Can you unpack that for us a little? Just to
Speaker 1: understand that the way it was presented to me spontaneous, romantic,
Speaker 1: we'll tell everybody afterwards, we're going to have this big party.
Speaker 1: And now I realized it would have been a big
Speaker 1: spotlight for him. He likes to be different, and I
Speaker 1: think there was a part of him who he was
Speaker 1: embarrassed by me. His family didn't accept me because educational,
Speaker 1: you know, they were very big on college. I had
Speaker 1: become an entrepreneur at a very young age, and I
Speaker 1: took a different path in life. But all of a
Speaker 1: sudden that was a negative And I thought, Wow, am
Speaker 1: I that naive that other people judged me this way
Speaker 1: when I've always been praised and received awards for my successes. Interesting,
Speaker 1: Yet this family who I look up to, would somehow
Speaker 1: think less of me or wouldn't consider me to be
Speaker 1: appropriate for their family. So let's do a little bit
Speaker 1: of a deeper dive. Here right around shame. Narcissistic people
Speaker 1: often infect other people with their shame. Narcissism is basically
Speaker 1: a shame based pattern, and they will often project that
Speaker 1: shame onto other people. So what we see here is
Speaker 1: that he may have wanted a secret wedding because his
Speaker 1: family didn't want people to know about Tina's education. Despite
Speaker 1: her considerable success as a businesswoman. Narcissistic people can leave
Speaker 1: any of us feeling like we are just one inch tall,
Speaker 1: devaluing our successes and our achievements, and that's mostly because
Speaker 1: they are so insecure themselves. I know he would weaponize
Speaker 1: your mom's death. Did he do that? Did he use
Speaker 1: your mother's death as a way to to sort of
Speaker 1: reel you into this long term commitment into a marriage. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I mean when my mom died, he proposed to me
Speaker 1: less than a month later, and so I was in
Speaker 1: this deep grief, you know, because even though my mom
Speaker 1: and I had had in a strange relationship and it
Speaker 1: had been very, very difficult, I grasped so tightly onto
Speaker 1: hope that she would come through this, that she would
Speaker 1: get help. And so I was not only grieving her death,
Speaker 1: but the loss of hope of having a relationship with
Speaker 1: my mom. We see something interesting here. Pushing fast forward
Speaker 1: on that commitment button. Proposing to Tina at a time
Speaker 1: of such complex grief when her mother died, it really
Speaker 1: exploits her confusion and her anguish It makes it harder
Speaker 1: to think clearly about committing to such a momentous decision,
Speaker 1: and also takes advantage of Tina wanting to find that
Speaker 1: piece of stability when so much has changed in her life.
Speaker 1: So you said in your book, you say that survivors
Speaker 1: of narcissistic abuse are some of the most intelligent, empathetic
Speaker 1: humans I've ever known. Why do you say that and
Speaker 1: how did all of this get shaped by your relationship
Speaker 1: with your ex husband? I think that narcissists are attracted
Speaker 1: to people who are the exact opposite of themselves. So
Speaker 1: in some ways, through the work that I do, through
Speaker 1: the work that you do, you're able to connect with
Speaker 1: and find some pretty amazing humans to surround yourself with.
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny here Tina frames it as narcissists
Speaker 1: being attracted to people who are the opposite of them
Speaker 1: Narcissistic people are actually drawn to empathic people, people who
Speaker 1: are willing to justify to cut them slack, to forgive them,
Speaker 1: and above all, who are willing to put up with
Speaker 1: their stuff without calling them out. So your empathy, the
Speaker 1: best part of you, actually places you at risk for
Speaker 1: narcissistic relationships. You would think that survivors of narcissistic abuse
Speaker 1: would get the the empathy kind of um scared out
Speaker 1: of them in a way, and yet that doesn't go
Speaker 1: away despite having gone through something so awful, and certainly
Speaker 1: your story was very difficult. I think that what you've
Speaker 1: really laid out is that at the beginning of a
Speaker 1: narcissistic relationship, the narcissistic person in a way has this
Speaker 1: sort of dark superpower as the only way you can
Speaker 1: designated to be able to find every vulnerability a person
Speaker 1: has and use those to control them. And the entire
Speaker 1: experience leaves an individual who is in the early phase
Speaker 1: of a narcissistic relationship constantly doubting themselves, especially if there
Speaker 1: had been a history of sort of difficult or complex
Speaker 1: relationships when a person was growing up. So it's as
Speaker 1: though the narcissistic person is the ultimate tactician. They get
Speaker 1: someone exactly where they need them to be able to
Speaker 1: take them apart to be able to control them, and
Speaker 1: then they engage in all kinds of tricks to obscure
Speaker 1: the red flags. So if you're not aware of what
Speaker 1: this is, and most people aren't in one of their
Speaker 1: earlier relationships, they get your right where they want you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I describe it as you know, this person when I
Speaker 1: first met, who seemed like a sponge, like he was
Speaker 1: the stride up sponge, and he was so interested in
Speaker 1: everything I had to say, my every worry, my every concern,
Speaker 1: my every ailment that I've ever had in life, and
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways molded himself to be my
Speaker 1: band aid, my savior. And now looking back, he was
Speaker 1: keeping a mental spreadsheet of every single pain, every single wound,
Speaker 1: so that he knew right where to go to inflict
Speaker 1: the most pain the quickest, And it's hard to grasp
Speaker 1: for those of us who don't think that way. Something
Speaker 1: I've said is that I believe that narcissistic people create
Speaker 1: an atlas of our vulnerabilities, so just like a map,
Speaker 1: they know exactly where to go to get what they
Speaker 1: need from us. And that's what the love bombing is.
Speaker 1: It's our walls come down and they get that information.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about them having kids. It's interesting in
Speaker 1: the pre nup he said that if you gain weight
Speaker 1: when you're pregnant, who knows what the penalty would be.
Speaker 1: But come to find out that he didn't really want kids.
Speaker 1: How would you connect, Tina, his lack of excitement around
Speaker 1: having children to his narcissism And how did this affect
Speaker 1: you in the beginning, because it sounded like you really
Speaker 1: wanted to be a mom. For him, he wanted to
Speaker 1: be a jet setter, He wanted to travel the world.
Speaker 1: He wanted to excel in our businesses, have this fantastic
Speaker 1: life which he felt children would ruin for him. And
Speaker 1: he had grown up in a family with quite a
Speaker 1: few kids and didn't want to do that. He saw
Speaker 1: his parents struggle with having so many children, and for
Speaker 1: whatever reason, he was adamant that we would not have kids.
Speaker 1: So when I found out in two thousand and four
Speaker 1: that I was pregnant with my first daughter, I was
Speaker 1: terrified to tell him. Um. I didn't even tell him
Speaker 1: that I purchased pregnancy tests because I didn't want it
Speaker 1: to be true for fear of his reaction and this
Speaker 1: sense of fear as I walked out of the bathroom
Speaker 1: and told him, and sure enough, he took one look
Speaker 1: at me, and I just saw this look of disgust
Speaker 1: and rage, and he walked out of the room. It's
Speaker 1: so painful a person is married, you find out you're pregnant.
Speaker 1: We often have this vision of this being such a
Speaker 1: precious moment in a relationship, and you were met with
Speaker 1: the silent treatment. So that's what happened when you found
Speaker 1: out you were pregnant, and then you live or the baby.
Speaker 1: What was his caregiving like at those times. Well, I
Speaker 1: was almost two weeks overdue, and that infringed on his
Speaker 1: triathlon training schedule. So he would leave and leave me
Speaker 1: home alone for great periods of time, and it was terrifying.
Speaker 1: And so he's gone for two hours, and I called
Speaker 1: my doula and pretended he was there, that we were
Speaker 1: just tying up a few things before we came, because
Speaker 1: it had become my role to protect our image, and
Speaker 1: I didn't want our doula to be mad at him
Speaker 1: during delivery. So I pretended that he was there with
Speaker 1: me and that we would be to the hospital shortly.
Speaker 1: Once we got there, he became what I needed, and
Speaker 1: he was actually presented as very carrying, compassionate, and in
Speaker 1: my opinions, because there was an audience do law, doctors,
Speaker 1: everybody else, and we were known in the community. So
Speaker 1: he really did become a doting dad of this newborn
Speaker 1: baby in the hospital. But even in that period of time,
Speaker 1: it gave me such hope. I thought that I knew
Speaker 1: as soon as he met this baby that it would
Speaker 1: all become clear for him how important this was. And
Speaker 1: so I I was on this roller coaster of you know,
Speaker 1: went through my whole pregnancy without him ever touching my
Speaker 1: stomach or feeling her kick, or doing the things a
Speaker 1: normal partner would do. And so I I did have
Speaker 1: hope after she was born, and that quickly went away.
Speaker 1: Right after I got out of the hospital, he let
Speaker 1: me know how much I had hurt his travel on
Speaker 1: training schedule and that he was really behind. Okay, let's
Speaker 1: pause a second so I can break this down. Hope
Speaker 1: is a four letter word in narcissistic relationships, and people
Speaker 1: give into it so quickly. Tina's ex didn't take care
Speaker 1: of her at all during the pregnancy, but when he
Speaker 1: showed up at the hospital, the frustration of the prior
Speaker 1: nine months was almost immediately replaced by hope. This hope
Speaker 1: disappointment cycle is the roller coaster that is every narcissistic relationship.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you I almost feel embarrassed to admit. The
Speaker 1: day we left the hospital, we drove out to the lake,
Speaker 1: which was about an hour from our home, and I
Speaker 1: sat in the truck and the parking lot with the
Speaker 1: air conditioner on, holding a newborn baby in excruciating pain,
Speaker 1: while he went out swimming and biking and did his
Speaker 1: whole trathlon run. And then later that week we went camping.
Speaker 1: He had trained for this triathlon, and that was the
Speaker 1: weekend that it was happening, And so I stood at
Speaker 1: the finish line in high heat, holding a newborn baby
Speaker 1: with staples in my stomach, cheering him on like the
Speaker 1: good wife. I did it for both pregnancies, because both
Speaker 1: of my daughters were born in April. During his triathlon,
Speaker 1: I couldn't do the things you're describing on a good
Speaker 1: day camping, triathlon heat, waiting for somebody to run. But
Speaker 1: what's really interesting to me is how you keep saying
Speaker 1: I'm embarrassed to say this. You have nothing to be
Speaker 1: embarrassed for, you know. It speaks to how much we
Speaker 1: internalize these relationships. You were simply doing what you needed
Speaker 1: to do to survive in that relationship, and yet, after
Speaker 1: all these years telling this story, you still feel that
Speaker 1: sense of embarrassment, as though you've done something wrong. I
Speaker 1: was in such a deep fog that I didn't see
Speaker 1: how horrible it was. Now looking back, if someone were
Speaker 1: to tell me this story, I would, you know, probably
Speaker 1: look at them sideways, thinking, how you know? That seems
Speaker 1: almost hard to believe, but not hard to believe once
Speaker 1: we know what narcissism is. It's sort of like every
Speaker 1: story has different episodes, but all of it comes down
Speaker 1: to it being invalidating unempathic behavior. Stories may look different,
Speaker 1: but the theme is always the same. My session with
Speaker 1: Tina will continue after this break. So Tina, let's talk
Speaker 1: about the weekend that changed it all? Okay, because there
Speaker 1: was this moment. Honestly, every narcissistic relationship has this. So far,
Speaker 1: what you've been talking about is behavior that's pretty bad,
Speaker 1: but a feeling. We haven't hit rock bottom on this
Speaker 1: one yet. So Tina, tell us how bad did your
Speaker 1: ex husband's behavior get and what was this tipping point?
Speaker 1: What did this look like? I started uncovering some pretty
Speaker 1: significant financial indiscretions. At one point I found out that
Speaker 1: we were one point six million dollars in debt. There
Speaker 1: was a reality that I didn't know about, and that
Speaker 1: was we didn't really have the money that we were spending.
Speaker 1: There came a point where everything was frozen because the
Speaker 1: I r S shut it all down. Around that time,
Speaker 1: I ended up finding a therapist, and this therapist said,
Speaker 1: it sounds like he's highly narcissistic, and that really started
Speaker 1: the beginning of the end. He basically waited until I
Speaker 1: left on a Friday night to go down south to
Speaker 1: visit my sister, and lying in wait was a moving
Speaker 1: truck and his face only members. They basically took every
Speaker 1: single possession that I owned out of the house and
Speaker 1: then replaced it with very cheap furniture. The most disturbing
Speaker 1: part was he had gutted everything out of my bedroom
Speaker 1: and redecorated it with a toddler bed with little girl decor,
Speaker 1: and on the bed he left the book The Proper
Speaker 1: Care and Feeding of Husbands. M hmm, that's interesting. I
Speaker 1: can get him vindictively taking all of the things out
Speaker 1: of the house. I mean, that's staffed but okay, putting
Speaker 1: children's furniture in your room? What's that about. I have
Speaker 1: some hypotheses myself, But why do you think he did that?
Speaker 1: To this day, I have no idea. It was so
Speaker 1: disturbing I to this day, I cannot understand why we
Speaker 1: could only speculate, Like part of me wonders, is that
Speaker 1: how he saw you as a child, because we can
Speaker 1: control a child right as a child that he could control,
Speaker 1: or is that just sort of how he almost viewed
Speaker 1: you within the I mean in the marriage, Like, I
Speaker 1: don't think being viewed as a child's being devalued. I think,
Speaker 1: actually children are wonderful. But in this case, it implied
Speaker 1: like a powerlessness, like I'm going to render you to
Speaker 1: be as powerless as a child. You're going to have
Speaker 1: no more power than the toddler, basically because there's a
Speaker 1: toddler bed in the room. It's such a strange thing
Speaker 1: for him to have done. Yeah, And our nanny was
Speaker 1: living with us at the time, and she's the one
Speaker 1: that called me to tip me off that this was happening.
Speaker 1: And she said, when I walked in the room, he
Speaker 1: looked manic, and he was terrifying, and he was trying
Speaker 1: to show me the photos of you as a little girl,
Speaker 1: and and look how sweet she looked. And our nanny
Speaker 1: moved out that weekend and I ended up in the
Speaker 1: women's shelter, afraid from my life very shortly after that episode,
Speaker 1: because I no longer felt safe in the house. You
Speaker 1: think about that again. We talked about the weekend that
Speaker 1: changed at all. That you went from living in a
Speaker 1: comfortable home, married with kids and all of that to
Speaker 1: having to show up at a women's shelter just to
Speaker 1: feel safe is a remarkable, remarkable shift want something that
Speaker 1: you never sounds like in your story, you never would
Speaker 1: have anticipated something like that happening. No, I remember my
Speaker 1: little girl saying from the back seat, where are we going?
Speaker 1: And I said, you know, we're going to a special
Speaker 1: hotel for moms and kids and will be there for
Speaker 1: a few days hopefully, and then we can go back home.
Speaker 1: But very humbling. So, Tina, I honestly think after what
Speaker 1: you've been through, you are literally an expert on gaslighting,
Speaker 1: something you probably didn't even know what it was before
Speaker 1: you got married. Talked to us about what does it mean,
Speaker 1: what does it mean to be gaslighted? And how it
Speaker 1: showed up in your relationship. I called him one day.
Speaker 1: I was home in this brand new house that we
Speaker 1: lived in and the roof was leaking. I called him
Speaker 1: and I said, what should I do? I'm not sure
Speaker 1: what to do. And he said, Tina, I told you
Speaker 1: to remind me to have the gutters cleaned. He was
Speaker 1: irate and he was yelling at me. And it was
Speaker 1: in that moment I literally felt like things became so clear.
Speaker 1: I've never in my life had a conversation with anyone
Speaker 1: about clearing gutters and how everything in our relationship was
Speaker 1: my fault. It's so interesting, Tina, that you should talk
Speaker 1: about gaslighting, because your story shows it in its many
Speaker 1: different forms. Gaslighting is a process of manipulation in which
Speaker 1: the gaslighter denies reality and doubts the mental health of
Speaker 1: the other person. Over time, a gaslighted person starts to
Speaker 1: not only doubt reality, but they also doubt themselves. For example,
Speaker 1: Ball with the gutters, you had a situation where he
Speaker 1: yelled at you for not cleaning them and that it
Speaker 1: was your fault that the roof was leaking. He expected
Speaker 1: you to read his mind about cleaning the gutters, and
Speaker 1: because you didn't do that because you couldn't do that,
Speaker 1: it was your fault that the roof is leaking. And
Speaker 1: I would even argue to Tina that the way he
Speaker 1: was reassuring you that your family finances were fine, although
Speaker 1: there was one point six million dollars in debt, that
Speaker 1: was gas lighting too. You know, you were married for
Speaker 1: nine years and it started going downhill to the point
Speaker 1: where you had had enough and the only option for
Speaker 1: you to get housing was to go to a women's shelter,
Speaker 1: and that was the place where you filed the paperwork
Speaker 1: for the divorce. At that point, he cut you off
Speaker 1: from all financial resources. It's not just about denying reality.
Speaker 1: It's cutting you down so much. Now you're already confused
Speaker 1: and you've been cut down. Gas Lighting has a few
Speaker 1: parts to it. First, you trust him because he is
Speaker 1: your husband, or at least you want to trust him.
Speaker 1: Then he repeatedly denies reality, denies your reality, he denies
Speaker 1: all reality, which confuses you. Then he tells you that
Speaker 1: you're impaired or stupid about money, or have a mother
Speaker 1: who has mental illness. So this is a systematic process.
Speaker 1: It's a systematic process of breaking you down so he
Speaker 1: can control you absolutely there it is so you can
Speaker 1: see that if you have less power, which in your
Speaker 1: case you did, and then he was from this family
Speaker 1: that had a good reputation in the community, and you
Speaker 1: are being painted as having something wrong with you, all
Speaker 1: of this together can make it really impossible to feel
Speaker 1: like you can fight back. We will be right back
Speaker 1: with this conversation with Tina. So, Tina, your story is
Speaker 1: already extraordinary, but what starts happening in court is almost unreal.
Speaker 1: One of the most important points you have brought up
Speaker 1: over and over again is how the family court system
Speaker 1: cares much more about parental rights over child safety and welfare.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about that, because I think that's such
Speaker 1: an important part of your story. When I first walked
Speaker 1: into the family court system, it was two thousand nine.
Speaker 1: I was forced to represent myself because of severe financial abuse.
Speaker 1: I could not afford an attorney, and I walked in
Speaker 1: so naive. I just believed that they would hear the
Speaker 1: concerns and that it's it's really common sense you protect children.
Speaker 1: That's what I thought that the court system was there
Speaker 1: to do. But what I quickly found out was that
Speaker 1: his parental rights were truly given more weight than my
Speaker 1: child's safety. Talk to us more about what a safe
Speaker 1: environment in this situation you're in for a child. If
Speaker 1: your children would have meant for our situation. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't believe he should have ever been unsupervised. But
Speaker 1: the way the family court system works, if you have
Speaker 1: a pulse and you say you want to give parenting
Speaker 1: a try, even if you've never parented before, or even
Speaker 1: if you could be considered dangerous, they're still going to
Speaker 1: give you a standing ovation for having a pulse and
Speaker 1: showing up, and they give the benefit of the doubt
Speaker 1: to the detriment of the children. What needs to happen
Speaker 1: in the family court system. Then, so many people, myself
Speaker 1: and Fluted are shocked when they find out that most
Speaker 1: family court judges have zero training in domestic violence, and
Speaker 1: if they do have training in domestic violence, we're talking
Speaker 1: the very one oh one version, and and that usually
Speaker 1: involves black eyes, busted lips, broken bones. They don't have
Speaker 1: the understanding of the intricacies of these toxic individuals, the
Speaker 1: you know, narcissistic individuals, and that the children to them
Speaker 1: are possessions, their ponds, their weapons. You know, in the
Speaker 1: family court system, it's all about winning and it's all
Speaker 1: about hurting the healthy parent. It sounds like it would
Speaker 1: make their job harder because right now it sounds like
Speaker 1: a very rubber stamped parental rights thinking. It's also a
Speaker 1: lot of people making money, Tina, There's a part of
Speaker 1: me wondering that the system as it stands, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of money going into a lot of people's pockets
Speaker 1: that perhaps people, you know, powerful people don't even want
Speaker 1: to see a change. But I think at some level
Speaker 1: two is that once you have to account for these dynamics,
Speaker 1: adjudicating these cases becomes a lot more complicated. It means
Speaker 1: you have to take in a lot more variables, And
Speaker 1: I just don't know that they want to make their
Speaker 1: jobs more difficult. Understanding narcissism isn't just a useful tool
Speaker 1: for people in toxic relationships. It is unconscionable that people
Speaker 1: making such life altering decisions that should be informed by
Speaker 1: this knowledge have almost no working knowledge of narcissism or
Speaker 1: antagonistic personalities. In general, narcissistic folks know how to perform
Speaker 1: in court and can quite easily trick the various folks
Speaker 1: who make the big decisions in the family courts. The charm,
Speaker 1: in the charisma that you saw during the love bombing.
Speaker 1: They are going to bring that same game into court.
Speaker 1: Did your divorce, the finalization of your divorce, did that
Speaker 1: provide you with any closure? No? Actually, that two day
Speaker 1: trial that we had two years into my divorce proceedings
Speaker 1: actually placed my children in a worse situation. Through the
Speaker 1: entire trial, I had brought friends into the courtroom, and
Speaker 1: when we were on a break, everybody was saying, you know,
Speaker 1: this is a no brainer. Instead of protecting my children,
Speaker 1: my children were actually put with him even more. It
Speaker 1: was such a difficult pill to swallow because the court
Speaker 1: had acknowledged that they didn't trust him to pick them
Speaker 1: up from school. Yet we're allowing this person to have them.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'll tell you my daughters when this started,
Speaker 1: we're two and four years old. Had never been away
Speaker 1: from me, especially my youngest, not even an overnight, and
Speaker 1: the trauma that that alone, Even if he would have
Speaker 1: been a healthy parent or a semi healthy parent, it
Speaker 1: is so wrong what we're doing two kids, because years
Speaker 1: later we are still dealing with that baggage from her
Speaker 1: being ripped away from me at two years old. It
Speaker 1: didn't provide you with closure. And it sounds a lot
Speaker 1: of that is because of the poor decision making within
Speaker 1: the system. As you said, they couldn't entrust him to
Speaker 1: pick up the children, but they were willing to entrust
Speaker 1: him to keep the children overnight. They're not even thinking
Speaker 1: about the illogic of that is actually quite striking. Can
Speaker 1: you tell us, Tina, where are things now with your case?
Speaker 1: Two thousand nineteen, we successfully terminated his parntal rights, which
Speaker 1: I was told all along the way that would never happen.
Speaker 1: It's impossible. It took almost ten years for me to
Speaker 1: get from the starting point to actually terminating his parental rights.
Speaker 1: It's an ultramarathon. And the reality is narcissist typically only
Speaker 1: trained for a ten k and so it's outlasting them
Speaker 1: because these are children and you don't really have a
Speaker 1: choice to Your ends are tied by this broken system.
Speaker 1: I am remarried to a wonderful man and he's adopted
Speaker 1: my daughters and so we we have peace. And I
Speaker 1: think that's so important for people to hear on multiple levels.
Speaker 1: There's just two things that jump out about what you
Speaker 1: just said, Tina. One was that this is an ultramarathon.
Speaker 1: Right you fight for your kids. Your story is extraordinary
Speaker 1: for your tenaciousness, for your perseverance in the face of
Speaker 1: what happened. It's understandable how many other people would not
Speaker 1: have that tenacity, who would say I can't do this anymore,
Speaker 1: who are so traumatized by these systems. I know in
Speaker 1: your work you work with many people who have been
Speaker 1: pushed to those limits. So in your case, in many ways,
Speaker 1: one could view it as a win, Tina, but I
Speaker 1: think that's a risky way to frame it, because it
Speaker 1: was a win that left you and your children completely ragged.
Speaker 1: Tina's case is unusual in that parental rights were terminated,
Speaker 1: and that was after ten years. Many people do not
Speaker 1: have these outcomes, and can we really call it a win.
Speaker 1: Even when people get outcomes that may ultimately protect their children,
Speaker 1: after the children are put through so much chaos and
Speaker 1: instability by systems that are so concerned with the rights
Speaker 1: of antagonistic parents over the needs of children. These toxic
Speaker 1: processes can impact children for a lifetime. You met someone
Speaker 1: and you fell in love, and you've created a new life.
Speaker 1: I think survivors really need to hear that, they really do.
Speaker 1: You're happy, Yeah, that journey though you're exceptional as well.
Speaker 1: As we wrap up here, something you've often said, Tina's
Speaker 1: that you've chosen to take on or assume the title
Speaker 1: of being a survivor instead of being a victim. Talk
Speaker 1: to us about how you got to that way of
Speaker 1: thinking of yourself as a survivor. Everyone who goes through
Speaker 1: this system is a survivor. You're strong, you're a war
Speaker 1: you'r whether or not you feel like you are or not.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to not only survive, I'm going to thrive.
Speaker 1: It's such an amazing journey because I really do it does.
Speaker 1: The family court system is almost designed to leave someone
Speaker 1: feeling like a victim, like something is being done to them,
Speaker 1: versus taking back your power and saying I am going
Speaker 1: to navigate through this. And I suppose the next part
Speaker 1: of the journey, after being a survivor, as being a thriver,
Speaker 1: which is something you really are doing. Please tell us
Speaker 1: a little bit about what you are working on now
Speaker 1: and how people can find you, because your work is
Speaker 1: absolutely extraordinary. Tina, thank you. So. I'm one of the
Speaker 1: founding members of an organization called the National Safe Parents Organization,
Speaker 1: and it's the top family court advocates in the country
Speaker 1: coming together and working really hard to ensure that in
Speaker 1: five years we don't have to keep talking about how
Speaker 1: broken it is and that changes are going to be made.
Speaker 1: But it's going to take a village. And Tina, how
Speaker 1: can people find you? One Mom's Battle dot Com and
Speaker 1: my books Divorcing a Narcissist are all available on Amazon.
Speaker 1: Fantastic Again, Tina, I know you and so you and
Speaker 1: I obviously have heard your story over the over the years,
Speaker 1: but getting to these pointed questions, and more than anything,
Speaker 1: having you tell the story in a way that people
Speaker 1: can actually see a story that was worse than most
Speaker 1: and the way how long it went through the system,
Speaker 1: how many barriers you face, the sort of the harrowing
Speaker 1: risks that at times you really had to walk your
Speaker 1: children through, and yet you got to where you needed
Speaker 1: to get through through persistence. I think it's important for
Speaker 1: people to hear this because I have worked with many, many,
Speaker 1: many clients wending their way through the family court system
Speaker 1: and the sheer amount of hopelessness and powerlessness that people experience.
Speaker 1: To hear a hopeful story despite having gone through such
Speaker 1: a difficult journey, I'm hoping is something that will sort
Speaker 1: of invigorate people to to keep getting up and fighting
Speaker 1: another day and being self forgive and recognizing that there
Speaker 1: are times that you just need to give yourself a
Speaker 1: break because the system is really designed to discourage people
Speaker 1: from soldiering on. So thank you again, thank you well.
Speaker 1: That was an amazing conversation with Tina. So let's go
Speaker 1: over some takeaways after all that we've talked about. First
Speaker 1: of all, we learned it's so important to trust your
Speaker 1: instincts repeatedly and to listen to your body. From the
Speaker 1: very beginning, Tina felt something wasn't right. Don't talk yourself
Speaker 1: out of what you feel. If you are going through
Speaker 1: a high conflict divorce with a toxic or antagonistic partner,
Speaker 1: be sure you educate yourself about how family court procedures
Speaker 1: in your region, state, or province work. Many people are
Speaker 1: rudely awakened when they recognize that the court does not
Speaker 1: account for narcissist sick behavior, no matter how badly it
Speaker 1: is harming children and take a page out of Tina's playbook.
Speaker 1: Another takeaway to keep in mind that when a person
Speaker 1: weaponizes your pain and vulnerability against you, that is abuse
Speaker 1: and it's a sign of how far this person will
Speaker 1: go when the relationship either goes on the rocks where
Speaker 1: finally ends. And always remember that the most dangerous and
Speaker 1: abusive time in a narcissistic relationship is often when it ends.
Speaker 1: Be prepared for that. Thank you so much for listening. Lastly,
Speaker 1: make sure you subscribe on I Heart Radio and please
Speaker 1: rate this podcast on Apple Podcasts. This show was produced
Speaker 1: by executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith Falon, jethro Ellen, Rackitton,
Speaker 1: and Dr Romeny Dr Vassila, Also producer Matthew Jones, associate
Speaker 1: producer Maura Della Rosa, and our editors and sound engineers
Speaker 1: Devin Donnahy and Calvin Bailiff.