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Speaker 1: Justin heads Up. Today's episode talks about child abuse.

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Speaker 2: You don't want your kids to be safe, you want

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Speaker 2: them to be under your control.

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unboster Creative. I'm bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is there Are No Girls on the Internet. On their

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Speaker 1: Discovery reality show Nineteen Kids in Counting, the Dugger family

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Speaker 1: was portrayed as a sweet, loving, close knit family. Parents

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Speaker 1: Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar were raising their nineteen children,

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Speaker 1: nine daughters and ten sons to be pure, modest and godly,

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Speaker 1: which includes strict gender roles, having lots of kids, and

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Speaker 1: of course homeschooling. But behind the cheery, upbeat show masked

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Speaker 1: a very deep darkness. Josh Dugger, the oldest son, sexually

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Speaker 1: abused girls, including his younger sisters. He's serving a twelve

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Speaker 1: year sentence after authorities found child sexual abuse material on

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Speaker 1: his computer. The Duggers followed the Institute in Basic Life

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Speaker 1: Principles or IBLP, a Christian organization founded by Minister Bill

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Speaker 1: Gothard in nineteen sixty one that purports to teach families

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Speaker 1: to find success through strict adherents to iblp's interpretation of

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Speaker 1: the Bible, gender roles are rigid, women are inferior to

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Speaker 1: the male heads of household, children must strictly obey their parents,

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Speaker 1: and all of this. All of these norms are enforced

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Speaker 1: through abuse. But it's not just about how individual families

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Speaker 1: run their households. Because of what's called Christian dominionism, the

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Speaker 1: idea that Christians like the Duggers should take control over

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Speaker 1: government and society, religious selates are striving for more and

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Speaker 1: more control over all of our lives. Eve Ettinger hosts

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Speaker 1: a podcast called Kitchen Table Cults where they talk about

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Speaker 1: life as an ex someone who got out of a cult.

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Speaker 1: Their story is featured in the new Amazon Prime documentary

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Speaker 1: about the Duggers called Shiny Happy People.

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Speaker 2: Hi. I'm Evetinger and I am on the board at

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Speaker 2: the Coalition for Responsible Home Education.

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Speaker 1: Eve didn't grow up under IBLP, but they were raised

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Speaker 1: in an adjacent ideology called Quiverpole, and they know a

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Speaker 1: lot about the kind of purity culture that's a hallmark

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Speaker 1: of both movements. So I've just finished watching the Shiny

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Speaker 1: Happy People documentary. First I have to ask what has

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Speaker 1: the response been like from the show now that it's aired.

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Speaker 2: It's been so sweet. Honestly, it's been really kind. Lots

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Speaker 2: of survivors reaching out, you know, they relate, they're grateful,

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Speaker 2: they're really happy that this is being told, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of other people who are like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: I had no idea, how can I help? And so

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Speaker 2: you know, being able to direct them to CIG and

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Speaker 2: our work is just really satisfying.

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Speaker 1: We were talking a little bit off Mike about this,

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Speaker 1: but you have this really prolific background as an activist

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Speaker 1: to someone who writes about important issues, and I'm happy

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Speaker 1: to hear that the response has been positive and sweet

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Speaker 1: and helpful and supportive as opposed to some of the

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Speaker 1: other issues, like your piece about the abortion rights movements,

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Speaker 1: things like that. I can imagine this feels like a

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Speaker 1: change in getting those kinds of responses.

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Speaker 2: Night and day different. I've had to like realate up

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Speaker 2: my security first things when things like this go live,

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Speaker 2: because I've had you know, a lot of hate directed

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Speaker 2: my way, some like active threats, and so it's been

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Speaker 2: just surreal to feel just the kindness around this. And

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Speaker 2: I also have to like, I think thank the producers

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Speaker 2: for this, and I think the medium probably has a

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Speaker 2: lot to do with that, given that there's like so

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Speaker 2: many of us speaking out together. It's not just me writing,

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Speaker 2: as you know, one off piece, but also the producers.

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Speaker 2: I work mostly with Corey and Olivia, and I cannot

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Speaker 2: speak too highly of them. They've been so wonderful and

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Speaker 2: so kind. And there were certain topics that were really

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Speaker 2: enmeshed in the stories that I was telling that I

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Speaker 2: find it impossible to tell without those other pieces, but

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Speaker 2: they are there's elements of that that lead me vulnerable

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Speaker 2: to people from my past, and they were able to

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Speaker 2: really cleanly edit out all of those things that left

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Speaker 2: me open to attacks and just really protect me. And

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Speaker 2: I felt very cared for by how they presented what

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Speaker 2: the material that they got.

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Speaker 1: So often, when us the viewers are watching the finished product,

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Speaker 1: the person who is the subject, the person who is

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Speaker 1: being spoken about, who's sharing their experiences which are often

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Speaker 1: like traumatic or painful or heavy. I hate it when

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Speaker 1: I hear from them where it's like, oh, this felt

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Speaker 1: me traumatizing, or this felt like exploitative. So it makes

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Speaker 1: me very happy to hear that you felt like it

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Speaker 1: was a good situation for you and not something that

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Speaker 1: was just like, how can we mine this person's pain

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Speaker 1: more for views, I really can tell when I'm watching

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Speaker 1: something that feels like that and I don't like it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, part of the reason I chose to do this

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Speaker 2: with them is that I felt that Lula Rich preserved

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Speaker 2: the dignity of the survivors, which was the piece that

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Speaker 2: they had done before this, and so that carried through.

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Speaker 2: Olivia is incredibly careful, incredibly thoughtful, and just very trauma informed,

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Speaker 2: and I just felt really cared for. I think everybody.

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Speaker 1: Did you know? Something that they make really clear in

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Speaker 1: the doc is how people watching shows like Nineteen Kids

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Speaker 1: in Counting might not have really been privy to how

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Speaker 1: harmful ideologies like IBLP actually are. Why do you think

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Speaker 1: that is?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: How is it that someone who watched this show could

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Speaker 1: be surprised by some of what is then clarified in

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Speaker 1: the documentary. That's a response I've been seeing a lot of, like, well,

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Speaker 1: I knew something was off, but I didn't know what.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think that is?

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Speaker 2: There's some amount of our culture that like generally universal

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Speaker 2: American culture, where we kind of want to let other

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Speaker 2: people do their thing, and you know, we may disagree

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Speaker 2: with it, we may judge it, we may like hash

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Speaker 2: it on Twitter or the you know, the Free Gender

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Speaker 2: Forum exists, like has existed. There's a lot of rubbernecking,

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Speaker 2: but like I think there's there's some amount of, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is part of the American persona to

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Speaker 2: like respect someone else's right to like destroy their life

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Speaker 2: if you will. But I think a lot of people

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Speaker 2: don't really think that someone would go that far. It

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Speaker 2: seems kind of like something maybe we left in the past,

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Speaker 2: Like it feels there's a brutality to what they are

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Speaker 2: doing to their children that perhaps feels our I can

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Speaker 2: like can't possibly be happening in this like modern time.

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Speaker 2: Anyone who's paying attention to like children rights, children's rights

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Speaker 2: issues knows otherwise. But I think that like a lot

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Speaker 2: of people aren't looking at the hard stuff and aren't

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Speaker 2: you know, it's entertainment, so they're not looking at that

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Speaker 2: and being like, what's wrong here? You know, let me

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Speaker 2: go noodle around on Wikipedia to find out who Bill

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Speaker 2: Gothard is there. They're wanting to like bed out after work,

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Speaker 2: and so Kieran and I always say on the Kitchen

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Speaker 2: Table podcast, which is when I co host with my

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Speaker 2: friend Kieran Darkwater, like the conspiracy is real if there's

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Speaker 2: like an actual conspiracy for Christian dominionism that has been

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Speaker 2: like put in place over the last thirty plus years,

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Speaker 2: and it's not.

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Speaker 1: Good.

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Speaker 2: Like conspiracy theories are again another like pastime, like a

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Speaker 2: great icebreaker is like, what's what's one conspiracy theory? You like,

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Speaker 2: personally would love to be real for it to be real,

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Speaker 2: you know, like that kind of chit chat. But it

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Speaker 2: is very real, and I think we just don't want

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Speaker 2: to take it seriously because it means that there's a

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Speaker 2: certain amount of religious freedom for the rest of us

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Speaker 2: that would immediately be at stake.

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Speaker 1: Follow me here. So I didn't grow up in an

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Speaker 1: evangelical household, but I did grow up in a kind

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Speaker 1: of old school Southern like spare the Rod, spoil the

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Speaker 1: child kind of household. And something that really struck me

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Speaker 1: in watching the documentary is how when they were talking

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Speaker 1: about the brutality of some of the physical abuse that

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Speaker 1: was commonplace in their communities, and how they had all

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Speaker 1: of these specific ways to avoid the police getting involved

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Speaker 1: with how they were, you know, abusing their kids essentially,

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Speaker 1: I you know, you talked about children's rights and this

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Speaker 1: sort of children first ideology that we're starting to talk

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Speaker 1: about now that is not a vibe that I grew

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Speaker 1: up with, And part of me wonders if one of

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Speaker 1: the ways that people didn't really necessarily want to see

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Speaker 1: some of the more abusive aspects of these of these

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Speaker 1: ideologies is because it's it's even if you're not evangelical,

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Speaker 1: you might be beating your kids, as you know, and

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Speaker 1: telling yourself it's disciplined, I'm doing this for their own good.

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Speaker 1: You might have a mindset that says your kids are

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Speaker 1: not people, your kids are your property, and the most

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Speaker 1: important thing for your kid is to be respectful to

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Speaker 1: you and not to express themselves, not to have needs, values, opinions, emotions,

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Speaker 1: and so that would be very threatening even if you

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Speaker 1: were not evangelical.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it goes back a really long way. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think there's a piece of this that is like historically,

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Speaker 2: like you know, women were property right legally, there was

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Speaker 2: a like tradition of law around that and the women's

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Speaker 2: like movement to a and that children were under the

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Speaker 2: same yea had that same status and it really never

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Speaker 2: changed because they didn't come along with the evolution of

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Speaker 2: women's rights very far. I talk about a lot about

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Speaker 2: this In a recent series on Kitchen Table Cult, we

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Speaker 2: did a deep dive into the history of children's rise here.

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Speaker 2: But then there's also, yeah, people don't people carry trauma

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Speaker 2: from their past and they think that they turned out fine,

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Speaker 2: and so it's okay to like pass that forward because

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Speaker 2: they're not willing to acknowledge that people that they love

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Speaker 2: deeply harmed them. And that's a really hard thing to

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Speaker 2: face and it takes a lot of maturity to be

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Speaker 2: able to face that and not like implode. And then

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Speaker 2: also people people really just don't want to take kids seriously.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot easier to parent by breaking your child's

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Speaker 2: spirit than to like take them seriously as a rational

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Speaker 2: individual with whom you need to negotiate because they have

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Speaker 2: autonomy and consent. It takes more time, it takes more work,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of people are not willing to do that.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of people like have kids because they

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Speaker 2: you know, don't want to be alone, or they want

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Speaker 2: to have a legacy, or they want to be able

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Speaker 2: to micro manage someone else's life because a partner wouldn't

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Speaker 2: stick around and let them do that. So you know,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of like immaturity. That goes into why

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Speaker 2: people have kids, and that's that's one thing. But then

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Speaker 2: what you do with the children when you have them

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Speaker 2: is it's very very important to take them seriously as

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Speaker 2: individuals with autonomy, and that's really really hard to accept.

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Speaker 1: In the documentary, we learn about the kinds of brutal

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Speaker 1: abuse tactics the Douggers use with their children. Tactics like

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Speaker 1: blanket training, where a baby is put on a blanket

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Speaker 1: with a toy just out of reach. If the baby

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Speaker 1: reaches off of the blanket for the toy, they're hit.

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Speaker 1: This is meant to break the child's spirit so that

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Speaker 1: they're more obedient. The film showcases the ways that spanking

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Speaker 1: and brutal physical punishment is glorified as a godly way

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Speaker 1: for a parent to treat a child.

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Speaker 2: I say often that spanking is sexual abuse, and people

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Speaker 2: really do not like that. I'm sorry, that's an erogenous

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Speaker 2: zone and you are like preparing. I mean, you saw

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Speaker 2: in the documentary it's functionally grooming for sexual abuse. Like

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Speaker 2: the whole line doing this because I love you. You

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Speaker 2: need to submit to an adult who is violating your boundaries,

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Speaker 2: and you have to go back and hug them after

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Speaker 2: it's done, and you have to accept them publicly, and

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Speaker 2: you have to have no respect resentment. You can't scream

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Speaker 2: out like that's a sign of rebellion like all these things.

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Speaker 2: It's it's sexual grooming. It's predatory. In addition to just

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Speaker 2: the like smacking your child is like extremely fucked up.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, there's just there's a lot there. People

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Speaker 2: don't like to look at it. They really really don't

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Speaker 2: like to look at it.

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Speaker 1: They really really don't. And I think it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like what you were saying. I think part of it

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Speaker 1: is that we as a society, I think we hate children.

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Speaker 1: We are very threatened by the idea that children are

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Speaker 1: little adults, and that if we actually built a world

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Speaker 1: that accommodated that reality, that seems big and scary and threatening.

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Speaker 1: So it's easier to believe that kids are just property.

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Speaker 1: You don't really need to think too hard about it

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Speaker 1: and how you treat them.

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Speaker 2: Are you familiar with the UN Convention on the Rights

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Speaker 2: of the Child. I am not, Okay, So it's you know,

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Speaker 2: obviously like un acts do not have like control over

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Speaker 2: our laws. But when we, you know, co sign something

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Speaker 2: that you know the international community has agreed like this

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Speaker 2: is fucked up, like it's it's it's endorsing a like

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Speaker 2: a standard that we're aspiring to right. And we never

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Speaker 2: endorsed or ratified the Ewan Convention on the Rights of

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Speaker 2: the Child back in the nineties early nineties because Michael Ferris,

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Speaker 2: who's the founder of the Homeschool Elyguild Defense Association and

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Speaker 2: was up until recently the president of Alliance Defending Freedom,

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Speaker 2: which is a really it's a hate group, lobbied and

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Speaker 2: organized homeschoolers to try to keep us from ratifying that because,

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Speaker 2: among other things, it asserts that a child has a

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Speaker 2: right to not be hit by their parents. I first

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Speaker 2: read this when I am entirety I knew of it.

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Speaker 2: I knew it was considered bad in the fundamental sum

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Speaker 2: school world, but I first read it in its entirety

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Speaker 2: when I went to Peace Corps. I was serving in

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Speaker 2: Kirkgyzstan as a educator volunteer, and because Kirkgyzstan had ratified it,

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Speaker 2: we had to read it as part of our training

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Speaker 2: as educators there. Wow, and I I lost it. I

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Speaker 2: had to go leave, go leave and sit in the

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Speaker 2: hall for like an hour because it was like all

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Speaker 2: of these things that it's asserting like would have saved me,

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Speaker 2: would have saved my childhood, would have been wonderful to

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Speaker 2: have had, as these are our values as a nation.

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Speaker 2: We just don't like kids. So there's there's like a whole,

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Speaker 2: there's a whole, like a lot of history behind that.

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Speaker 2: And obviously, again it wouldn't be binding in the way

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Speaker 2: that a federal law would be. But just the fact

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Speaker 2: that we won't even endorse that kind of aspirational value

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Speaker 2: is deeply disturbing.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break at our back today. EVE

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Speaker 1: is part of the Coalition for Responsible Home Education, an

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Speaker 1: organization that pushes back against the harmful, regressive, and insular

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Speaker 1: worlds that these kinds of ideologies build by advocating for

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Speaker 1: the rights of kids who are homeschooled. The homeschool space

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Speaker 1: has been deeply deregulated, thanks in part to the lobbying

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Speaker 1: efforts of people like Michael Ferris, republic and activist and

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Speaker 1: the head of the Homeschool Legal Defense Association. EVE says

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Speaker 1: that homeschooling is a big part of how kids are

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Speaker 1: further entrenched into and harmed by ideologies like IBLP and Quiverble.

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Speaker 1: One of the big things I have to talk about

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Speaker 1: is homeschooling. I have to imagine that the right to

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Speaker 1: an education is something that I don't know if it's

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Speaker 1: spelled out in that in that but like kids deserve.

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Speaker 2: To be educated, it is, it is, I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it is.

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Speaker 1: That's I mean yeah. Would imagine something that's so clear

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Speaker 1: in the documentary is that homeschooling. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: things that contribute to the harm that is able to

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Speaker 1: be done and perpetuated here, homeschooling is a big one.

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Speaker 1: What role do you see homeschooling play as playing in

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Speaker 1: all of this?

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Speaker 2: Homeschooling enables abuse, and you've written about this many many places,

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Speaker 2: like obviously like general caveat of like there are great

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Speaker 2: parents and homeschooling can be a really wonderful tool. But

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Speaker 2: as it stands, homeschooling has been systematically deregulated over the

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Speaker 2: last thirty years by people like Michael Ferris in order

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Speaker 2: to elevate parental control over a child's right to education

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Speaker 2: and child's right too in open future. The net effect

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Speaker 2: is that in I'm in Virginia and I was homeschooled

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Speaker 2: in California and Virginia. In Virginia, there's two ways you

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Speaker 2: can register to be homeschooled. One is like the standard process,

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Speaker 2: where you report to the school board I'm homeschooling, and

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Speaker 2: then you have to provide certain academic benchmarks to prove

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Speaker 2: that there's academic progress. That could be standardized testing, that

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Speaker 2: could be a portfolio, like different states have various benchmarks

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Speaker 2: that they use for that. But in Virginia, you can

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Speaker 2: also register under religious exemption, which basically says, I'm homeschooling

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Speaker 2: for religious reasons, and as soon as you do that,

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Speaker 2: you don't exist. So this was established back in I

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Speaker 2: want to say the eighties. I don't think that's quite right,

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Speaker 2: but it was established originally to allow the Mennonites to

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Speaker 2: pull their kids from school to be part of the

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Speaker 2: farming work in their community or whatever they had going on,

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Speaker 2: and you know, not have the mandatory education through twelfth grade.

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Speaker 2: And that's a homeschooling loophole that has been used. It's

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Speaker 2: been like really strongly protected by the homeschool parental rights

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Speaker 2: extremist lobby and kids, Like if a parent decided to

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Speaker 2: homeschool their first kid and then decided that we're going

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Speaker 2: to have a home birth for the second kid, and oh,

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Speaker 2: we don't want to register this child as existing. If

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Speaker 2: the homework goes really smoothly and like nothing goes wrong,

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Speaker 2: they could potentially have a child without a Social Security

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Speaker 2: number who is being educated at home under the religious exemption,

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Speaker 2: who the state has no idea that they exist, and

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Speaker 2: that's perfectly legal. Under the religious exemption, you could have

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Speaker 2: your kid graduate from high school without knowing how to read,

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Speaker 2: and again that would be perfectly legal. Virginia's kind of

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Speaker 2: like one out of many different Every state has a

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Speaker 2: very different set of regulations. You can look years up

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Speaker 2: at responsible Homeschooling dot org. We've got a list of

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Speaker 2: states in there, you know the current state of homeschooling

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Speaker 2: by state. We consider Pennsylvania currently to be the gold

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Speaker 2: standard in terms of like how they track this stuff.

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Speaker 2: But it's the We at CICH have a like vision

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Speaker 2: of changing policies so that the child's right to an

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Speaker 2: open future and child's right to an education are preserved,

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Speaker 2: and currently that's not the case, and so all of

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Speaker 2: that sets the stage for families like the Duggers. Ironically,

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Speaker 2: Arkansas is one of two states that does not allow

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Speaker 2: a registered sex offender in the home if a family

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Speaker 2: is homeschooling. So if you want to register as a homeschooler,

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Speaker 2: you have a registered sex defender in the home, you

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Speaker 2: will not be permitted to homeschool in Arkansas. That's there

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Speaker 2: are only two states that have that.

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Speaker 1: That is, I can't. I'm like, I'm I'm I believe you,

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Speaker 1: but I am shocked. That is shocking information.

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Speaker 2: So you know, like we're looking at groups like Moms

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Speaker 2: for Liberty, right, they're trying to they're trying to be

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Speaker 2: like some of them might be homeschool moms coming to

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Speaker 2: school boards trying to like regulate how things are censored.

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Speaker 2: This is based off of the model that the homeschool

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Speaker 2: lobby has been using to de regulate homeschooling, and it's

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Speaker 2: been wildly successful. Just why SIG exists because we're homeschool

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Speaker 2: alumni being like this is fucked up. We would like

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Speaker 2: a word here, right, and the other side because a

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Speaker 2: lot of this order, a lot of the lobbying was

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Speaker 2: done by homeschool parents. They just see us as like

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Speaker 2: better or disgruntled and and don't take us seriously. Our

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Speaker 2: concerns are not real because again, in their eyes, we're

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Speaker 2: still kids. Doesn't matter that I'm thirty four and I

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Speaker 2: have like a master's degree and like have taught in

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Speaker 2: multiple different colleges and like institutions of varying levels. Like

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Speaker 2: I know what I'm talking about when it comes to

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Speaker 2: education and what kids need. It doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Because because yeah, you will always be a child in

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Speaker 1: their eyes, there's not And I also think there's a

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Speaker 1: kind of thing of like, oh, they're just biased because

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Speaker 1: they didn't have a good experience, so you know what

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Speaker 1: they're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Some of the board members that ci REG had wonderful

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Speaker 2: homeschooling experiences, but because they saw the peers in the

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Speaker 2: community who fell through the cracks, they're mad about it,

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Speaker 2: and they'd like to write the ship. We'd like to

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Speaker 2: make it safe for you know, even if some of

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Speaker 2: my home school homeschooling experience was great, I don't need

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Speaker 2: to like spend a lot of time getting into like

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Speaker 2: the specifics because it's not up for debate. But they

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Speaker 2: I liked certain things like times look like for you.

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Speaker 2: So I'm the oldest of nine kids, and up until

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Speaker 2: I was thirteen, and my mom had a set of

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Speaker 2: twins numbers six and seven in the lineup, I had

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Speaker 2: much more like support and like flexibility. I got to

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Speaker 2: like have some sort of input in the curriculum. I

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Speaker 2: didn't have a lot of choices, but I got to

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Speaker 2: choose within options, and my mom had time to like

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Speaker 2: work with me on stuff. But once the twins arrived,

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Speaker 2: I was co parenting the younger kids. I was babysitting

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Speaker 2: in ninth grade. I did know school. I just read

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Speaker 2: you know, great books, works of literature. And while I

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Speaker 2: was watching children, I got super behind in science and math.

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Speaker 2: I did not have assistance to check my work on things.

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Speaker 2: I mostly had to do it myself. I had to,

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Speaker 2: you know, go take the great book and like go

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Speaker 2: check my answers and like not have any idea how

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Speaker 2: I got ex algebra problem wrong. And then going to

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Speaker 2: you know, my mom or my dad for help would

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Speaker 2: be like does one even remember how it worked? And

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Speaker 2: does the other even have like the energy to even

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Speaker 2: look at this, or like there's a screaming toddler who

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Speaker 2: needs to be fed, Like let's go do that. So I,

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Speaker 2: you know, I have ADHD. I like to learn. I hustled,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't want to be stuck at home, so

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Speaker 2: like I was like an okay student on my own,

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Speaker 2: but the environment was not conducive to learning, and there

399
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Speaker 2: were a lot of gaps that I've had to fill

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Speaker 2: on my own afterward. If you want to get a

401
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: pretty good example of how it can look like that,

402
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 2: like Tara Westover is educated, felt very familiar in terms

403
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Speaker 2: of like, you know, I knew that the Holocaust had

404
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 2: happened by the time I got to college, but she didn't.

405
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Speaker 2: And that's not uncommon or unheard of.

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Speaker 1: Do you think part of it is gendered? Like had

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Speaker 1: you not been assigned a female at birth, would you

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Speaker 1: have been responsible for childcare at nine? Fuck?

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Speaker 2: Yes, because I was expected to be a wife and

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Speaker 2: mother someday. And like the long term theory was you

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Speaker 2: don't really need to go to college, but if you

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Speaker 2: want to go to college, that's fine, But the only

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Speaker 2: reason you would need a college degree is like what

414
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Speaker 2: if some day in the future your husband got disabled

415
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 2: and couldn't work and then you had to go earn money,

416
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Speaker 2: Like that's the kind of like extrapolation. There was no

417
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Speaker 2: like I really wish I could have taken my college

418
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Speaker 2: search seriously and applied to Ivy League schools, not like

419
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Speaker 2: the Ivy's are really better, but at a certain point

420
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Speaker 2: I believe that they were. And I had a lot

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Speaker 2: of anger over the fact that I was directed at

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00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,959
Speaker 2: certain private Christian colleges or super local colleges so that

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Speaker 2: I could be close to home and be available. I

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Speaker 2: left as far as I could within those parameters. But again,

425
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Speaker 2: I had options with any set of choices handed to me.

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Speaker 2: But I was not encouraged to think about myself as

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Speaker 2: someone who was going to be earning money in the

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Speaker 2: future and having to support myself or having to take

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Speaker 2: care of other people because I was training to be

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Speaker 2: a wife and mom guess what, not a girl. It

431
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: just didn't really work out that way.

432
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I wonder I your amazingly written salon

433
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: piece about homeschooling, and something that really struck me was

434
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 1: how secrecy seemed to be a big part of it.

435
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: Like if somebody asks about your education, don't say this,

436
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: say that. If somebody from the state comes poking around,

437
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: say this, not that.

438
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 2: I think a lot of that was early on, and

439
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 2: that part of my life was in California, especially so

440
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: California is like homeschooling a low at the time, was

441
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 2: you registered as a private school. There was no limit

442
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 2: on how many students at private school had to have,

443
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: and so each individual homeschool could operate as a private school.

444
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 2: And that's how they you know, registered to homeschool. So

445
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 2: back then, you know, this is like ninety six, ninety seven,

446
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 2: ninety eight, somewhere in there. When I was getting taught

447
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 2: those things, like homeschooling was not very well known. Mean

448
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 2: girls hadn't come out, You didn't have like references, and

449
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: so it felt like one, probably my mom didn't want

450
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 2: to explain things in the grocery store. Two, there's serious

451
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 2: fear mongering always and is still being carried out by HSLDA.

452
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: Mike Veris' org to make homeschool parents paid dues to

453
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: participate in their organization based off of the fear that

454
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: you might need legal production from a someday, legal representation

455
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: from a some day, because the state is probably going

456
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,239
Speaker 2: to come for your kids. We were taught to not

457
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 2: trust social workers or to see them as a threat.

458
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

459
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: Teaching kids to fear agents of the state like social

460
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: workers and CPS is sadly not an uncommon thing for

461
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: some parents. Jennifer Jean Hart and Sarah Margaret Hart adopted

462
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: six black children who the women physically abused and neglected.

463
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: When child protective services would get involved in one state,

464
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: the women would pack up the kids and flee to

465
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,479
Speaker 1: another state, until eventually, in twenty eighteen, the women loaded

466
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: all of their kids into their suv and intentionally drove

467
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: it off the cliff. None of them survived.

468
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 2: If you look at you know, the Heart Family case,

469
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: that's a very classic case of this. It was like

470
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: they left the state to go to Oregon. I think

471
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: they were in Wisconsin. They were the Upper Midwest because

472
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 2: the CPS case was open and they were being looked

473
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 2: into and they were trying to avoid it, and that

474
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 2: was happening again in organ and that's when they took

475
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: that fatal road trip. Like being trained to be afraid

476
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 2: of the resources that are there to protect children again

477
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 2: kind of goes hand in hand with the like they

478
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: hate kids. You don't want your kids to be safe,

479
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: You want them to be under your control.

480
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: Fuck, you know, thinking back about how fear is really

481
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: used to control people's behavior, the documentary makes this interesting

482
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: point that all of this ideology was really picking up

483
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: steam on the backdrop of things like school desegregation, and

484
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: I was just like watching it. I was like, God, damn,

485
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: these people really did not want to go to school

486
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: with black people, Like they sent this who it is.

487
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 2: It is very clearly laid out. There's a really good

488
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: piece that I can send you that kind of political piece.

489
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: I believe that documents this. But it's basically like brown

490
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 2: v board. White people started private Christian schools, and then

491
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: the private Christian schools started getting desegregated. You look at

492
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: Bob Jones University and like the ruling there, and they

493
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 2: fucking panicked and went to homeschooling. And I, you know,

494
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: look looking at the homeschooling community I grew up in

495
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: both in California and Virginia, predominantly white. There were people

496
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 2: people of color, and there's other, you know, communities within that,

497
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 2: some immigrant families, you know, who were choosing that because

498
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 2: it felt safer for various reasons. Like but it's just

499
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 2: the way it started was like very clearly a move

500
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: if your based move around white supremacist ideology, and that

501
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 2: is still like kind of so embedded in the movement.

502
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 2: You can't find homeschool curriculum. There's a few options that

503
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: are not overtly religious or don't have like overtly redivisionist history.

504
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 2: So as the during the pandemic, the spate of people

505
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 2: leaving to go homeschool their kids, there's a it seemed

506
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 2: like there was a wave of especially black homeschool families

507
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 2: starting to homeschool. I just I feel really bad for

508
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: them because like, yes, this is a really good and

509
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: safe option for you, and also you're walking into a

510
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 2: community that is really stacked against you. The resources that

511
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 2: are available are directly opposed to any kind of like

512
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:59,719
Speaker 2: adequate education. It's I just I just feel bad that,

513
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 2: you know, this is a really good option for them

514
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: and it's not safe. And again that's part of why

515
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: cerig exists, is like this should be safe. There should

516
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 2: be you know, there should be good resources. We'd love

517
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: to see like homeschoolers being able to be integrated into

518
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 2: public school extracurriculars, you know, those kinds of things where

519
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: you're part of the community, but you get to do

520
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 2: it your way.

521
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've made really clear that the kind of abuse

522
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: that is made worse by homeschooling that we saw in

523
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: the documentary is preventable. What are some solutions to preventing

524
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: that kind of thing.

525
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: So I did a peace Or Team vogue about this

526
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 2: with my friend Nyla Burton. One of the things we

527
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 2: covered in our reporting or was a lot of former

528
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 2: homeschoolers who are now social workers talking about we don't

529
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 2: want more like mandatory oversights. We like, yes, we want

530
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 2: more interactions with mary reporters or mandated reporters, but not

531
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 2: through like a top down like you have to meet

532
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 2: with this person every year. Instead opening things, opening up

533
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 2: existing resources and existing communities where they will inter interact

534
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: with mandated reporters so that you avoid the karciural top

535
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 2: down stuff where if you open up my kid is

536
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 2: homeschool but wants to participate in band, and the local

537
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 2: middle school down the street has a really good band program,

538
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: and we can like I can drop Tommy off at

539
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: three for band practice, and like he's part of the community,

540
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 2: and that teacher is a mandated reporter, and like, so

541
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 2: providing more integration resources for homeschoolers to participate in systems

542
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:53,240
Speaker 2: that already exist, to be able to take some pressure

543
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 2: off of parents for being the sole source of educational

544
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 2: resources and just kind of like how can we like

545
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 2: bring them in how can we make things accessible and

546
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 2: this will like I feel like everybody would benefit from this.

547
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 2: This will help the kids with disabilities or being homeschooled.

548
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 2: But like we need to participate in certain things, or

549
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: you know, being able to pick and choose more and

550
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 2: integrate yourself as much as you want. Well, obviously, like

551
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 2: how to manage that policy wise is complex, but I

552
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 2: feel like a more integrated vision is probably the safest

553
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 2: way forward for everybody.

554
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was really clear to me watching the documentary

555
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: when folks would talk about how they didn't have they

556
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: didn't have TV, they didn't have movies, they didn't have

557
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: like when there was a hurricane, there's somebody had a

558
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 1: family member had to call because they didn't have that

559
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 1: even that level of access to the outside world. And

560
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: when people are so close off and these communities and

561
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: families become so insular, that really is just like a

562
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: breeding ground. Not not to mention the way that these

563
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 1: young people are being taught, like do whatever the oldest

564
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: male tells you to, or you know, if somebody is

565
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: abusing you, that's actually good for you. It's just pretty

566
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: obviously like a recipe for not great stuff happening, not

567
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:21,720
Speaker 1: safe stuff happening.

568
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I it's like, I mean, I also like kind

569
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 2: of think about this in terms of this is this

570
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 2: is absolutely opening a can of worms. But there's kind

571
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 2: of a like back rooms conversation among the ex homeschooler

572
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 2: community about like, you know, for a while and I

573
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 2: think now the question has been close, but for a

574
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 2: while before the most recent allegations came out, is Josh

575
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: Duggert actually a pedophile or was he just not given

576
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 2: access to sex ed? And I think like now like

577
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 2: child born case closed, But up before that, there was

578
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 2: a lot of conversation about like we didn't get access

579
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 2: to sex ad and so stories of siblings checking each

580
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 2: other out to figure things out is a really like

581
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 2: terrifyingly common experience for a lot of people, And you

582
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 2: just set everybody up to fail if you don't anticipate

583
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 2: curiosity and provide resources and education. It kind of goes

584
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 2: every which way. You know, kids having information about childbirth

585
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 2: because mom had a home birth in the living room,

586
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: but not knowing about how their body parts work, Like

587
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,240
Speaker 2: just the lack of information really sets you up to fail.

588
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: Definitely, and like not leaving space for the realities of

589
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: what kids are going to wonder about and be curious

590
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 1: about it enough questions about Like.

591
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: Again, they're todd of us beings. You can't anticipate everything,

592
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 2: you can't control everything, like they are going to surprise

593
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: the fuck out of you if you let them just

594
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 2: be willing to like go along and provide resources for them.

595
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 2: It's not that hard.

596
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: From IBLP to Quiverfall. The point of these harmful ideologies

597
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 1: is not just about how one family raises their kids.

598
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: It's much more than that. With young people being trained

599
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 1: and educated to serve at the highest levels of government

600
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: and politics and using social media platforms like TikTok and

601
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 1: YouTube to put a more palatable telegenic schine on their ideology.

602
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: The goal is pretty explicitly world domination. What are the

603
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: points that I thought was so scary and salient in

604
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: the film is this idea at the end where it's like,

605
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: it's not just about this one ideology. This is about

606
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: people who are harmful, who are also very well connected politically,

607
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: have lots of money, who are doing this because they

608
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 1: want they ultimately want like global domination. They want to

609
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: be at the highest levels of government and politics. They

610
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: want to be the people who are making decisions for

611
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 1: the rest of us for what we can and cannot do.

612
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: How have you seen this playing out? And should we

613
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 1: be worried?

614
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,439
Speaker 2: Oh? God, So there's a whole lot. There's a whole

615
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 2: lot that goes into this. So I think this was

616
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 2: clear in the film. But like want of just like reiterate,

617
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: I did not grow up in IBLP. I grew up

618
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 2: in quiver Fule and the then diagram is like almost

619
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 2: over top of each other, but not quite the only

620
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: reason we didn't do that is because my dad liked

621
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 2: to play is electric guitar and that is satanic in IBLP. So,

622
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 2: but pretty much everything else we adopted. And there's a

623
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 2: lot of that like overlap. If you look at our

624
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 2: j Rush June so kind of the grandfather of Christian

625
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 2: dominionism and the like intellectual trickle down effect that he

626
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 2: had on everybody. You could play Bengo with all of

627
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 2: the like stuff that's going on with the Southern Baptist

628
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 2: Church convention right now and evicting women from from practicing

629
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 2: as pastors and the Hillsong documentary stuff and the God

630
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 2: Will Willo Creek Baptist Church problems and all just like

631
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: anytime there's a Christian sex scandal or like overt racism

632
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 2: happening in a church community. You can just like there's

633
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 2: there's a genealogy you can trace back to these these

634
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 2: old school Christian dominionists who were like trying to basically

635
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 2: like push the Confederacy into theocratic territory. Like I sound

636
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 2: like the guy with the string map on the wall,

637
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 2: but I built out the string map and it's pretty solid.

638
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

639
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 2: No, the big Karde is like rushianty slashly. Uh. It's

640
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: just it just goes on and on.

641
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of the things that's like it

642
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 1: kind of goes back to what we open the conversation

643
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 1: with about this idea that we do have this innate

644
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: thing in us in society. That's like, oh, if this

645
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: person wants to live like this, even if it's harmful

646
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: to them, let them. But some of these harmful ideologies,

647
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: it's not enough that they live like this and they

648
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: want their kids to live like this. They want me,

649
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 1: I bagually I've never met to live like this. They

650
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: want they want what I can do and can't do.

651
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: They want to make decisions. It's the same thing like

652
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 1: you were saying, like the homeschooled pairs and some moms

653
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: for liberty. Their kids are not even at the public school,

654
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: but they want to be at that school making decisions

655
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: for what other people's kids can and cannot read. What

656
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: do we do with that?

657
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: It's called Christian dominionism. It's a thing. It's it's it's

658
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 2: it's fascist. I mean, that's that's ultimately what it is.

659
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 2: It's it's Christian fascism. And like there's different ways people

660
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 2: get into it. Some of them like have a little

661
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 2: literal eschatological belief that like if Christian America is not

662
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 2: made into a Christian nation, then they will then Jesus

663
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: will never have a second coming, like full on, full

664
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 2: on really it's deeply anti Semitic belief system about the

665
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: way and times should work and will work if we

666
00:42:54,840 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: do or do not become a Christian nation and then

667
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 2: and there's other people who are much more like soft

668
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 2: about it, but they kind of end up in the

669
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: same place through other ways, just in terms of like

670
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 2: wanting to have these like Christian values imposed upon people

671
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 2: or wanting to be able to functionally eliminate certain segments

672
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 2: of society. I mean, like what is happening right now

673
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 2: is a very slow transgenocide, Like that's the plan, and

674
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 2: these book bands are like the start of it. And

675
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 2: that's why I'm calling it fascism because it's looks very slow,

676
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 2: but that's where it's going to end. And they all

677
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 2: get to the same place no matter where they start.

678
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 2: If their interest is controlling children and controlling access to

679
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: information and consolidating power.

680
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 1: Even if it's said by a really sweet seeming lady

681
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: with a baby voice and big hair, it's still fashes.

682
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: It's gonna do Michelle indentation. But I can't. I can't

683
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 2: bring myself to do it.

684
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: That voice is something. It's like, it's the stuff that

685
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: she's saying is like terrifying, and it's that much more

686
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: terrifying that she's saying it in that voice. I was like,

687
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 1: oh my god, it's.

688
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 2: Close having a gentle and quiet.

689
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: Spirit shows up my spine.

690
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really bad. It's it looks real pretty, I mean,

691
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: but then again, Ivanka also looks really pretty, like.

692
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: I speaking of like polishing up things that are scary.

693
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: Having grown up in the quiver Full movement, which is

694
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: basically this theology that's like having lots and lots of

695
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: kids is a blessing from God. Do you see the

696
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 1: ways that right now, Like there are lots of tech

697
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: billionaires like Elon Musk who are really into pro natalism,

698
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: where they're like, I want to have as many super

699
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: babies as I can to repopulate the earth and to

700
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: make sure that like you know, know, kids with lots

701
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: of kids with my good genes quote unquote are running around.

702
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,919
Speaker 1: Do you do you see this as like a new

703
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: version of the same kind of thinking of that that's

704
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 1: like kind of like vaguely eugenicist, where it's like my

705
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: DNA I.

706
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,320
Speaker 2: Needs explicitly eugenicist.

707
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 1: Not if you ask, not if you ask people like

708
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 1: Elon Musk, they're like, what do you mean, Like it's

709
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 1: just sorry, my DNA is just special.

710
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 2: You ask any disabled person, they will say it's eugenesis,

711
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 2: and they are the ones that get to have the

712
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 2: authority on that.

713
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it is horrible, and I can't believe I

714
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 1: guess the reason why I say, like, I think that

715
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: we are being sold right now that it's actually fine,

716
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 1: it's eugenicist. But like there's that couple who they forget

717
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: what magazine they were in, but it's like I think

718
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 1: that right now we are being sold that it's smart, good,

719
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: These people are doing their part to make you know

720
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: the future better. Blah blah blah. I think we are

721
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: being packaged eugenicism with a pretty package, and we're being

722
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: told that actually it's good for the world.

723
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 2: And also like, I'm sorry, Elon, if your dreams are

724
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 2: so good. One, what about that hairline? We've seen them

725
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 2: before pictures. And two he has literally lost more money

726
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 2: than anyone in history has ever lost. If if you

727
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 2: just look at the Twitter deal and those tums still

728
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 2: sound good to be But like, yeah, I know the

729
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 2: pro natalists like birth, you know, reproduced, reproduction, fetish, whatever

730
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 2: it is. It's not that dissimilar. They're just you know,

731
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 2: putting a tech spin on it rather than a first

732
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 2: from proverbs.

733
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly what I think. I think if you

734
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: told some of these people it's the same, it's the

735
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: same thing, just packaged differently, they would really resent that.

736
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 1: They'd be like, what are you talking about?

737
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 2: I'm a make them squirm, good, make them squirm.

738
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 1: You know. Another thing I I'm curious about is when

739
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 1: it comes to like the documentary and the work that

740
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 1: you're doing with kitchen table cults, amazing podcast you're writing.

741
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: Does it feel good to just be like getting this

742
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: out talking about it?

743
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 2: It does? And also like I have so many other

744
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,479
Speaker 2: things that I am interested in and have been working

745
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 2: on writing about that, Like I can't wait till like

746
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 2: this is obsolete, Like we've been trying to end kitchen

747
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 2: table cults for so long, and every year we're like,

748
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 2: guess we're in for another one, because these things keep

749
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 2: happening that are relevant, and unfortunately we still have stuff

750
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:45,240
Speaker 2: to say, Like it's I would love to be able

751
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 2: to shut up about this. I would love for this

752
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 2: to be irrelevant. I would love for like homeschool policy

753
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 2: to like, you know, exist in such a way that,

754
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 2: like Cirig feels like we have nothing to do, Like

755
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,240
Speaker 2: that would be great. It would be so nice. It's cathartic.

756
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 2: And also like I wonder, like write a memoir about

757
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 2: my garden. Thank you.

758
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: What does it feel like to have this life that

759
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: you have? You have this full, dynamic life, full of

760
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: interests and work and friends and culture and color and fun.

761
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: Did you what is that like? Like did you feel

762
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: like that would be a life that you had when

763
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: you were young?

764
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 2: No, I have two answers for you. When is this

765
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 2: this T shirt that we need?

766
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: Driving out of Spy. I guess.

767
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 2: There's a little bit of that that's like, uh, oh,

768
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 2: you said I couldn't do that, fuck you. But there's

769
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 2: actually a lot of it that's like I have lived

770
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 2: far beyond the scope of my imagination that I had

771
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 2: for my life when I was a teenager, and so

772
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 2: sometimes I feel a little like I'm floundering because I'm

773
00:48:55,520 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 2: like anything else that I too is so far removed

774
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 2: from anything I ever thought possible that like, I'm just

775
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 2: like inventing new goals and inventing new visions for my futures.

776
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 2: It's really cool, and it's also like, wow, I never

777
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 2: It's it's the thought of the you know, I sort

778
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 2: of have experienced this in another sense, but there's the

779
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 2: thought of like when you've experienced a long period of

780
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 2: depression and you're like, damn it, I'm still alive, Like

781
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 2: what now, Like I didn't think i'd live to be X,

782
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 2: and then now I'm here, might as well just like

783
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 2: figure stuff out. Like it's it's that it's a little

784
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 2: of that, like I didn't think I'd get this way.

785
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 2: Whatever else happens is just really cool and gravy. But

786
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:51,720
Speaker 2: also I struggled to dream big any about it because

787
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 2: there's there's so much that I've already been able to

788
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 2: do that was so seems so impossible.

789
00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 1: It's kind of beautiful.

790
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:01,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fucking rad.

791
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 1: It's fucking rad. Is there anything that I did not

792
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: ask that you want to make sure it gets included?

793
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 2: I think that it's important to know that c REG

794
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 2: is the only organization founded and run by homeschool alumni

795
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 2: for homeschool kids and their rights. I think it's important

796
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 2: to know that we are still largely a volunteer run organization,

797
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 2: and we are we would love to be able to

798
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 2: pay all of our staff all time, so we are

799
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 2: looking for monthly donors. If you feel so alled to

800
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 2: use the church language, go for it. We are about

801
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 2: at the end of our fiscal year, so by the

802
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 2: end of by June thirtieth, we'd like, that's the end

803
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 2: of our end of the year fundraising drive. So and

804
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 2: being able to have monthly donors helps us be able

805
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 2: to project who we're going to be able to pay

806
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 2: next year, and that would mean a lot to all

807
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 2: of us.

808
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,399
Speaker 1: Where can folks donate and get involved and learn more.

809
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 2: Responsible Homeschooling dot org. That's the that's the place go

810
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 2: find them.

811
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: Also, where can folks here Kitchen Table, Kitchen Table.

812
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: Cults, Kitchen Table cult dot com. We have various handles.

813
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 2: That's either Kitchen Table Cults or Kitchen Table Cult Pod

814
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 2: depending on what we were able to get. But we

815
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:25,359
Speaker 2: are available on all your usual podcast platforms and if

816
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 2: you become a patron, we have Patreon. We have a

817
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 2: slack that is largely survivors, venting and sharing theiry like

818
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 2: Little and Big Wins in the after we escaped Now

819
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 2: what World? So it's pretty great. I love it.

820
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: Thrive out of Spite, Eve Attinger, thank you so much

821
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 1: for being here and thanks for the work.

822
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 2: That you're doing. Thank you for having me.

823
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

824
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 1: just want to say hi? You can reach us at

825
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 1: Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts

826
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No

827
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd.

828
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed. Creative Jonathan Strickland

829
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and

830
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

831
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

832
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

833
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

834
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: get your podcasts