WEBVTT - Guns Part 3: A Shooting Lesson 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.036 Pushkin. In June of twenty twenty two, just after Memorial Day, 0:00:24.516 --> 0:00:27.476 President Biden gave the first major gun control speech of 0:00:27.556 --> 0:00:31.436 his presidency. He had just come back from Uvaldi, Texas, 0:00:31.756 --> 0:00:34.676 where twenty one people had been killed by a mass shooter, 0:00:35.196 --> 0:00:37.836 and twelve days before that, he had gone to Buffalo, 0:00:37.916 --> 0:00:40.716 New York, where a gunman had murdered ten people in 0:00:40.756 --> 0:00:41.636 a grocery store. 0:00:42.956 --> 0:00:46.876 At both places, we spent hours with hundreds of family 0:00:46.876 --> 0:00:50.956 members who were broken. Those lives will never be the same. 0:00:52.236 --> 0:00:55.636 They had one message for all of us. Do something. 0:00:56.556 --> 0:01:01.596 Just do something, for God's sake, do something. I know 0:01:01.636 --> 0:01:04.596 that we can't prevent every tragedy, but here's what I 0:01:04.636 --> 0:01:08.916 believe we have to do. Here's what the overwhelming majority 0:01:08.876 --> 0:01:12.276 of means. Here can people believe we must do. Here's 0:01:12.316 --> 0:01:16.516 what the families in Buffalo and Uvaldi in Texas told 0:01:16.556 --> 0:01:20.076 us we must do. We need to ban assault weapons 0:01:20.116 --> 0:01:21.676 and high capacity magazines. 0:01:22.916 --> 0:01:26.516 President Obama made the same plea here. He is talking 0:01:26.596 --> 0:01:30.156 about the twenty twelve shooting in Aurora, Colorado, where a 0:01:30.196 --> 0:01:33.996 gunman with an assault rifle killed twelve people and wounded 0:01:34.076 --> 0:01:35.036 another fifty eight. 0:01:36.076 --> 0:01:39.836 Weapons designed for the theater of war have no place 0:01:39.996 --> 0:01:44.636 in a movie theater. A majority of Americans agree with 0:01:44.716 --> 0:01:48.516 us on this, and by the way, so did Ronald Reagan, 0:01:49.036 --> 0:01:51.836 one of the staunchest defenders of the Second Amendment, who 0:01:51.876 --> 0:01:55.116 wrote to Congress in nineteen ninety four urging them. This 0:01:55.156 --> 0:01:59.236 is Ronald Reagan speaking, urging them to listen to the 0:01:59.236 --> 0:02:02.756 American public and to the law enforcement community and support 0:02:02.796 --> 0:02:06.756 a ban on the further manufacture of military style assault weapons. 0:02:07.356 --> 0:02:10.756 Not to mention Bill Clinton, Bill Clinton went on about 0:02:10.756 --> 0:02:12.956 assault rifles so much he got sick of it. 0:02:13.836 --> 0:02:17.676 But I'm telling you, it's amazing to me that we 0:02:17.716 --> 0:02:22.556 even have to have this debate. I mean, how long 0:02:22.596 --> 0:02:23.996 are we going to let this go on? 0:02:25.116 --> 0:02:28.436 And then Clinton concluded with something close to despair. 0:02:29.556 --> 0:02:32.236 I'm sorry to be so frustrated, but sometimes it seems 0:02:32.236 --> 0:02:35.956 that the president's job, i'll to be dealing with things 0:02:36.036 --> 0:02:37.156 that are not obvious. 0:02:40.036 --> 0:02:43.436 For the past thirty years, banning assault weapons has been 0:02:43.476 --> 0:02:46.836 the rallying cry of the gun control movement. Every time 0:02:46.916 --> 0:02:49.876 a mass shooter attacks somewhere in the United States, dressed 0:02:50.276 --> 0:02:53.396 in full army camo with a full on military assault 0:02:53.476 --> 0:02:57.316 weapon slung over their shoulder, the issue comes up again. 0:02:58.316 --> 0:03:01.676 And next week or next month, when another mass shooter strikes, 0:03:02.076 --> 0:03:03.396 you will hear this speech again. 0:03:04.116 --> 0:03:07.276 A few years ago, the family of the inventor of 0:03:07.316 --> 0:03:11.756 VAR fifteen, he would have been horrified to know that 0:03:11.796 --> 0:03:15.316 the design was being used as slaughtered children and other 0:03:15.396 --> 0:03:18.676 innocent lives instead of being used as a military weapon 0:03:18.676 --> 0:03:22.356 of the battlefields as was designed. That's who's dying for 0:03:23.596 --> 0:03:25.116 enough enough. 0:03:28.836 --> 0:03:31.956 My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 0:03:32.116 --> 0:03:36.956 my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is 0:03:36.956 --> 0:03:42.196 about assault rifles, the most hated gun in America. Because 0:03:42.196 --> 0:03:45.836 midway through this miniseries on gun violence, I realized that 0:03:45.916 --> 0:03:48.476 I didn't understand why this gun, out of all the 0:03:48.516 --> 0:03:52.036 guns in America, was the weapon that so many people 0:03:52.476 --> 0:03:56.916 wanted to ban. There are a hundred proposals out there 0:03:57.076 --> 0:04:00.716 for confronting gun violence, should this one be at the 0:04:00.756 --> 0:04:04.236 top of the list. So I looked for someone who 0:04:04.236 --> 0:04:07.436 could give me an assault rifle tutorial, and I chose 0:04:07.476 --> 0:04:13.516 as my teacher, Greg Waller, gun enthusiast, competitive shooter, college professor, 0:04:13.996 --> 0:04:17.676 hockey fan, big friendly guy with gray hair, author of 0:04:17.716 --> 0:04:21.076 a number of scholarly law review articles on assault weapons 0:04:21.236 --> 0:04:25.396 and their implications. And I should point out one of 0:04:25.436 --> 0:04:28.956 the leaders of the other side of the assault weapons battle, 0:04:29.156 --> 0:04:31.956 which is what I wanted, someone who would tell me 0:04:31.996 --> 0:04:35.916 things I didn't know, and, given all my predictable liberal biases, 0:04:36.276 --> 0:04:41.476 maybe things I might not want to know. Greg Wallace 0:04:41.516 --> 0:04:45.676 and I didn't talk politics or the Second Amendment or 0:04:45.716 --> 0:04:49.036 the NRA. We just talked guns. 0:04:56.636 --> 0:04:58.916 Close up wind over there that son maybe come here? 0:04:59.236 --> 0:05:00.716 Got it? 0:05:02.276 --> 0:05:05.716 The tutorial began in his office at Campbell Law School 0:05:05.876 --> 0:05:09.876 in Durham, North Carolina. Wallace put a large black nylon 0:05:09.956 --> 0:05:12.716 bag on his desk and took out the gun in question. 0:05:13.956 --> 0:05:14.596 It is a. 0:05:16.036 --> 0:05:19.596 Because I told you it was a felony to bring 0:05:19.636 --> 0:05:23.436 a firearm on educational campus in North Carolina. 0:05:24.396 --> 0:05:30.916 But there is a nice exception for educational purposes. And 0:05:31.956 --> 0:05:36.836 I have my get out of jail free letter here 0:05:36.916 --> 0:05:37.556 from the Dean. 0:05:39.196 --> 0:05:42.236 It was an AR fifteen, the most popular brand of 0:05:42.276 --> 0:05:44.676 assault rifle sold in the United States. 0:05:45.316 --> 0:05:48.076 Does the AR stand for Armor White Rifle? 0:05:48.156 --> 0:05:48.316 Oh? 0:05:48.396 --> 0:05:51.196 Armley, Yeah, yeah, the company that laid it. 0:05:52.396 --> 0:05:55.316 In the Second World War, American soldiers used a rifle 0:05:55.356 --> 0:05:57.796 called the M one. You've seen one, I'm sure in 0:05:57.836 --> 0:06:02.076 war movies. Long, slender, unadorned. The body of the rifle 0:06:02.276 --> 0:06:04.796 is made of walnut with a metal gun barrel poking 0:06:04.796 --> 0:06:07.796 out of one end. An AR fifteen belongs to the 0:06:07.836 --> 0:06:11.596 generation of military weapons that followed the M one, made 0:06:11.636 --> 0:06:13.876 out of metal with plastic in the stock in the 0:06:13.916 --> 0:06:18.556 handguard black, much lighter than its predecessor, firing a less powerful, 0:06:18.756 --> 0:06:19.596 smaller bullet. 0:06:20.676 --> 0:06:21.796 It's a trade off. 0:06:21.956 --> 0:06:29.316 Do you go with more rounds of a perhaps less lethal, 0:06:29.436 --> 0:06:33.676 still lethal, but less so, and allow the soldier to 0:06:33.716 --> 0:06:37.276 carry more rounds, or do you go with the larger, 0:06:37.996 --> 0:06:41.436 more lethal round but they can't carry as many and 0:06:41.516 --> 0:06:45.636 that's the trade off, and the military decided to go 0:06:45.676 --> 0:06:46.796 with the smaller round. 0:06:47.716 --> 0:06:51.796 The thinking was a lighter, less powerful weapon makes less noise, 0:06:52.236 --> 0:06:54.956 produces less of a flash, so it's harder to spot 0:06:55.036 --> 0:06:58.516 on the battlefield. It has less recoil compared to say, 0:06:58.876 --> 0:07:01.956 a shotgun. Spend an afternoon hunting with a shotgun and 0:07:01.996 --> 0:07:04.956 your shoulder will get all bruised. That gun has a 0:07:04.996 --> 0:07:08.316 savage kick, not the AR fifteen, which makes it a 0:07:08.316 --> 0:07:10.916 little easier to get the gun back on target and 0:07:10.996 --> 0:07:16.676 fire off a second shot. Do you know I've never 0:07:16.716 --> 0:07:17.556 seen one of these. 0:07:17.556 --> 0:07:22.356 Never seen one. It is unloaded. That will check again, 0:07:22.996 --> 0:07:25.036 so you want to hold one. 0:07:25.996 --> 0:07:28.756 It wasn't just that I'd never seen an assault rifle before. 0:07:28.916 --> 0:07:31.596 I'd never held a gun of any kind before when 0:07:31.596 --> 0:07:33.436 I was growing up in Canada. I don't think I 0:07:33.516 --> 0:07:36.756 even knew anyone who'd held a gun, not to mention 0:07:36.836 --> 0:07:40.316 that the AR fifteen wasn't a hunting rifle, something you 0:07:40.356 --> 0:07:43.436 shoot rabbits or deer with which I could rationalize away. 0:07:43.796 --> 0:07:47.556 It was a weapon of war. Ugly, unsettling. I think 0:07:47.636 --> 0:07:50.836 Wallace was a little amused by my discomfort. He tried 0:07:50.836 --> 0:07:53.316 to reassure me. What I was holding, he said, was 0:07:53.356 --> 0:07:57.276 the civilian version of the AR fifteen, not the military version. 0:07:57.596 --> 0:08:00.996 They looked the same, but they were fundamentally different weapons. 0:08:01.836 --> 0:08:05.356 So if this was an actual military AR fifteen, it 0:08:05.396 --> 0:08:07.396 would have what how would it differ from what I'm 0:08:07.396 --> 0:08:08.116 looking at right now? 0:08:08.316 --> 0:08:09.516 Right would do? 0:08:09.916 --> 0:08:12.116 Is you would have This is the switch here that 0:08:12.236 --> 0:08:14.076 selects fire and safe. 0:08:14.596 --> 0:08:16.796 The switch was on the side of the gun, small 0:08:16.916 --> 0:08:21.916 but clearly marked safe is locked, fire is ready to go. 0:08:22.836 --> 0:08:25.636 There's only two options on this because it's a semi 0:08:25.676 --> 0:08:29.356 automatic only, so you switch it to fire and it 0:08:29.396 --> 0:08:31.556 fires one bullet for each pull of the trigger. 0:08:32.276 --> 0:08:35.316 The Army's AR fifteen has a different switch. 0:08:36.196 --> 0:08:39.396 With the military weapon, it is capable of what's called 0:08:39.476 --> 0:08:42.596 selective fire, which means there would be a third option 0:08:42.756 --> 0:08:47.156 on here. One option would be full auto, which is 0:08:47.356 --> 0:08:49.676 you pull the trigger and hold it down and it 0:08:49.756 --> 0:08:52.996 fires continuously until it either runs out of ammunition or 0:08:53.036 --> 0:08:56.116 that you let the trigger up. It can also fire 0:08:56.236 --> 0:08:59.116 semi auto. There would be the semi auto select and 0:08:59.116 --> 0:09:00.316 then there would be the safe. 0:09:00.996 --> 0:09:02.156 That's the principal difference. 0:09:02.276 --> 0:09:06.356 Yes, the real, the material difference between the two is 0:09:06.356 --> 0:09:08.396 that one is a machine gun and the other is not. 0:09:09.236 --> 0:09:11.916 He showed me how to hold the gun, handle it, 0:09:11.956 --> 0:09:14.756 brief me on its history. Then we went downstairs to 0:09:14.796 --> 0:09:17.596 his stuv and drove forty minutes to a shooting range. 0:09:17.596 --> 0:09:20.836 He belongs to. Nothing. Fancy a little shed in the 0:09:20.836 --> 0:09:23.236 midst of some piney woods where you sign in a 0:09:23.316 --> 0:09:26.156 series of long shooting alleys scooped out of the side 0:09:26.156 --> 0:09:29.156 of a hill. We set up cardboard targets in the 0:09:29.156 --> 0:09:32.996 shape of a man's head and torso put on ear protection. 0:09:38.556 --> 0:09:40.876 All right, we're gonna start off with this one right here. 0:09:41.516 --> 0:09:48.116 This is a it's a custom built AR fifteen. It 0:09:48.156 --> 0:09:51.596 has the adjustable stock. It has a fourteen and a 0:09:51.676 --> 0:09:55.116 half inch barrel. But with this right here, this muzzle 0:09:55.196 --> 0:09:59.036 device is pinned and welded on it, so the barrel 0:09:59.116 --> 0:10:02.916 is sixteen inches long. If it's not sixteen inches long, 0:10:03.036 --> 0:10:06.076 if it's shorter than that, it's called a short barrel rifle, 0:10:06.316 --> 0:10:09.996 and you have to register it with the ATF and 0:10:10.116 --> 0:10:11.556 pay a two hundred dollars tax. 0:10:11.596 --> 0:10:11.916 Snap. 0:10:11.996 --> 0:10:15.196 Okay, uh, this is legal, I mean obviously. 0:10:17.236 --> 0:10:17.636 All right. 0:10:18.396 --> 0:10:21.516 You want to shoot it? Yeah, okay, all right, I will. 0:10:22.116 --> 0:10:26.356 Let's get you comfortable on this here, so see if 0:10:26.396 --> 0:10:29.116 that works. Now, what you need to do is to 0:10:29.596 --> 0:10:32.516 hold it up here, okay, all right, and then you 0:10:32.556 --> 0:10:34.396 need to lean your head over a little bit where 0:10:34.476 --> 0:10:37.356 you can see with your You keep looking with. 0:10:37.356 --> 0:10:39.036 Your right eye. You want to see that. You want 0:10:39.036 --> 0:10:43.556 to find the red dot in there. You see it? 0:10:43.916 --> 0:10:44.196 Yep? 0:10:44.556 --> 0:10:46.676 This time you want to come out here and take 0:10:46.716 --> 0:10:49.596 this one up and hold it right here. Okay, put 0:10:49.596 --> 0:10:51.676 your finger up on the side. There we go. 0:10:51.796 --> 0:10:51.996 Yep. 0:10:52.076 --> 0:10:54.316 I want you to bring your left foot forward, get 0:10:54.356 --> 0:10:56.716 in that like kind of boxing stance. There you go, 0:10:56.876 --> 0:10:59.836 there you go, all right, bend forward, just a little bit. 0:10:59.916 --> 0:11:02.796 All right, now we're going I'm gonna take it off 0:11:02.796 --> 0:11:05.516 of safety. Now, once you touch that trigger, once the 0:11:05.556 --> 0:11:09.396 safety goes off, it will fire. Okay, all right, yeah, 0:11:09.956 --> 0:11:10.596 so aim it? 0:11:16.716 --> 0:11:16.916 Who? 0:11:18.756 --> 0:11:19.036 Lord? 0:11:19.676 --> 0:11:25.676 That would What did you think about that? Jesus kicked it? 0:11:25.796 --> 0:11:27.276 Did it kick a lot? Well? 0:11:27.396 --> 0:11:27.636 Wasn't that? 0:11:28.036 --> 0:11:30.916 It's just the sudden awareness of the there's. 0:11:30.676 --> 0:11:34.036 A Yeah, it's a surprise. 0:11:34.196 --> 0:11:36.196 I mean it is. The very first time you do it, 0:11:36.756 --> 0:11:40.476 you get used to the sort of what would you 0:11:40.516 --> 0:11:42.196 call violence of it, you. 0:11:42.156 --> 0:11:42.836 Know, cussive? 0:11:43.076 --> 0:11:55.036 Yeah. Yeah. 0:11:55.076 --> 0:11:58.756 My first question for Wallace was what makes an assault 0:11:58.836 --> 0:12:02.036 rifle an assault rifle? What was it that I was 0:12:02.076 --> 0:12:05.476 holding when I fired it? It sounded like I imagined 0:12:05.476 --> 0:12:08.636 a gun would sound like, and felt just like I 0:12:08.676 --> 0:12:11.116 had imagined and a gun would feel like. So what 0:12:11.236 --> 0:12:14.436 made this gun different from other guns? I thought there 0:12:14.436 --> 0:12:17.196 would be an easy answer. It turns out there wasn't. 0:12:17.836 --> 0:12:20.796 One of the things about the AR fifteen is some 0:12:20.836 --> 0:12:26.116 people have called it the Lego of modern rifles because 0:12:26.956 --> 0:12:32.236 you can put a lot of different things on it. Yes, 0:12:32.316 --> 0:12:35.436 so this has got a scope on it rather than 0:12:35.516 --> 0:12:38.356 just the red dot site there, It's got a scope 0:12:38.476 --> 0:12:41.996 one to ten scope. It also has this red dot 0:12:42.036 --> 0:12:45.436 here that I can flip it to the side and 0:12:45.556 --> 0:12:49.156 aim it if I'm going from scope to red dot 0:12:49.276 --> 0:12:55.916 like that. It has a flashlight on it, and it 0:12:55.996 --> 0:13:00.356 has a little handstop here, a little grip stuff. 0:13:01.796 --> 0:13:04.676 What he meant by that phrase the lego of modern 0:13:04.756 --> 0:13:09.596 rifles was that the AR fifteen was endlessly configurable. It's 0:13:09.636 --> 0:13:11.556 not like a Smith and Wesson six shooter from the 0:13:11.596 --> 0:13:15.196 nineteenth century, or a colonial musket, or even the shotgun 0:13:15.356 --> 0:13:17.796 that your parents might have had. We all have a 0:13:17.796 --> 0:13:20.876 picture in our mind of what those guns look like, 0:13:21.436 --> 0:13:24.836 but an AR fifteen is more like a firearm platform 0:13:24.876 --> 0:13:28.876 than a specific kind of gun. Its most distinctive feature, 0:13:29.236 --> 0:13:31.836 which you can always use to spot an assault rifle, 0:13:32.276 --> 0:13:34.236 is a tube that runs along the top of the 0:13:34.236 --> 0:13:37.956 gun barrel. It's an ingenious system that redirects gas is 0:13:37.996 --> 0:13:41.196 expelled from the bullet, leaving the gun to reload the 0:13:41.236 --> 0:13:44.916 next bullet in the chamber. But that platform supports a 0:13:45.036 --> 0:13:49.196 virtually infinite number of add ons and upgrades. You can 0:13:49.236 --> 0:13:52.236 replace the gun sight and gun jargon, the optic to 0:13:52.316 --> 0:13:54.836 let you see the target better, a place the trigger 0:13:55.116 --> 0:13:57.996 with something that feels more comfortable upgrade what's called the 0:13:58.036 --> 0:14:00.636 bolt carrier the guts of the rifle. To reduce the 0:14:00.716 --> 0:14:03.436 chance of jamming, put a muzzle flash hidher on it 0:14:03.556 --> 0:14:06.156 so the gun doesn't light up when it fires. A 0:14:06.236 --> 0:14:09.596 suppressor to reduce sound to dust. A salt rifles can 0:14:09.676 --> 0:14:12.396 have what's called a pistol grip. When you pull the trigger, 0:14:12.556 --> 0:14:14.516 the balance of your fingers rest on the same kind 0:14:14.516 --> 0:14:17.316 of handle you would typically see on a handgun. There's 0:14:17.316 --> 0:14:20.236 also something called a forward grip, dropping down from the 0:14:20.236 --> 0:14:22.516 barrel of the gun, where you put your non shooting hand. 0:14:22.796 --> 0:14:25.396 You can, if you want keep both, have just one, 0:14:25.756 --> 0:14:27.596 or have none at all. The part of the gun, 0:14:27.756 --> 0:14:30.876 the stock that rests against your shoulder, can be adjustable, 0:14:31.036 --> 0:14:33.236 so you can fit the gun to your own dimensions. 0:14:33.276 --> 0:14:39.316 On and on and on. So when you ban an 0:14:39.316 --> 0:14:44.116 assault rifle, what's being banned. The assumption of most people, 0:14:44.156 --> 0:14:46.716 I think is that the gun control movement intends to 0:14:46.716 --> 0:14:50.236 ban the platform, But they don't. No one's looking to 0:14:50.276 --> 0:14:54.356 ban the distinctive gas to reloading system, or more ambitiously, 0:14:54.596 --> 0:14:57.196 the category of light, easy to carry and handle semi 0:14:57.236 --> 0:15:01.076 automatic rifles. What is called an assault rifle ban is 0:15:01.116 --> 0:15:05.116 simply an attempt to specify which lego pieces you are 0:15:05.556 --> 0:15:09.436 and are not allowed to add to the platform. Even 0:15:09.516 --> 0:15:12.476 the federal ban on assault rifles in place from nineteen 0:15:12.556 --> 0:15:14.956 ninety four to two thousand and four was just a 0:15:14.996 --> 0:15:17.676 ban on some of the add ons in that law. 0:15:18.036 --> 0:15:21.476 Congress made a short list of the most problematic modifications 0:15:21.516 --> 0:15:24.076 to the rifle platform and said you could only have 0:15:24.156 --> 0:15:27.796 one of them. The Senate bill, introduced after Biden's speech 0:15:27.996 --> 0:15:31.676 makes a slightly longer list of problematic modifications and says 0:15:31.876 --> 0:15:35.436 you can't use any of them. Now, do the lego 0:15:35.516 --> 0:15:38.556 pieces on those lists actually make the gun more dangerous? 0:15:39.156 --> 0:15:43.716 Not really more comfortable maybe or easier to clean and handle. 0:15:44.396 --> 0:15:47.196 But ninety nine percent of the lethality of an assault 0:15:47.276 --> 0:15:51.196 rifle is in the platform. When we were at the range, 0:15:51.196 --> 0:15:54.036 for example, Wallace went on at some length about another 0:15:54.076 --> 0:15:57.596 of the modifications that comes up in assault weapons discussions. 0:15:58.076 --> 0:16:03.756 Magazine size magazines are the rectangular metal boxes that hold ammunition. 0:16:04.596 --> 0:16:07.516 In keeping with its status as a lego of rifles, 0:16:07.716 --> 0:16:09.876 you can go on the Internet and any number of 0:16:09.956 --> 0:16:14.196 replacement magazines for your gun that hold thirty rounds or 0:16:14.236 --> 0:16:17.516 even fifty rounds. So one of the things that assault 0:16:17.596 --> 0:16:20.396 rifle bands tend to do is prohibit the sale of 0:16:20.516 --> 0:16:24.236 magazines that hold more than ten bullets. The thinking is, 0:16:24.676 --> 0:16:27.276 why make things easier on the mass shooter. Make him 0:16:27.316 --> 0:16:31.356 change magazines two or three or four times. Wallace showed 0:16:31.396 --> 0:16:34.236 me what this means in practice. He held his gun 0:16:34.276 --> 0:16:37.396 with one hand and reached for a spare magazine on 0:16:37.436 --> 0:16:38.276 his belt. 0:16:38.756 --> 0:16:41.356 What you would do is you would have like a 0:16:41.436 --> 0:16:46.276 magazine change. So let's say he's out, so he's going 0:16:46.316 --> 0:16:50.156 to do this right here, and he's ready to go again. Now, 0:16:50.156 --> 0:16:53.196 how long did it take to change that magazine? Just 0:16:53.236 --> 0:16:55.756 a couple of seconds. And one of the things that 0:16:55.796 --> 0:17:00.596 the people who say, well, we gotta make magazine changes 0:17:00.636 --> 0:17:03.796 more often make smaller magazines, so he'll have to change 0:17:03.796 --> 0:17:06.756 more often. If you were lying down on the ground there, 0:17:07.916 --> 0:17:10.796 could you get up and attack me in the time 0:17:10.836 --> 0:17:13.956 it took me to change that magazine? No, probably could. 0:17:14.796 --> 0:17:16.596 I mean you probably could, so. 0:17:18.716 --> 0:17:19.836 I'd have you do it, But don't want you to 0:17:19.876 --> 0:17:20.796 get to close all already. 0:17:20.956 --> 0:17:27.196 But when you're in a closed area and people are 0:17:27.236 --> 0:17:30.756 down on the floor, it's going to be a rare 0:17:30.876 --> 0:17:33.596 situation where somebody is going to be able to jump 0:17:33.716 --> 0:17:38.876 up and subdue the shooter while he's changing a magazine. 0:17:39.636 --> 0:17:42.236 Well, it's this point, was it? Limiting magazines was the 0:17:42.356 --> 0:17:44.716 kind of thing that sounded like a good idea to 0:17:44.836 --> 0:17:48.396 people who didn't know anything about guns, or who were 0:17:48.396 --> 0:17:52.236 too squeamish to think about the way mass shooters actually behaved. 0:17:53.316 --> 0:17:58.196 And then you have mass shooters with several guns, different guns, 0:17:58.276 --> 0:18:00.916 multiple guns, and if they're done with one, they just 0:18:00.996 --> 0:18:03.036 drop it and they pick up the other one. It's 0:18:03.036 --> 0:18:04.916 about as fast as a magazine change. 0:18:05.716 --> 0:18:07.956 How is a mass shooter being deterred by this kind 0:18:07.956 --> 0:18:10.716 of legislation? And by the way, have you ever looked 0:18:10.756 --> 0:18:14.436 at the appendix to a typical assault rifle ban. Right 0:18:14.436 --> 0:18:17.196 after they catalog the short list of guns that will 0:18:17.236 --> 0:18:19.916 be made illegal, they run a very long list of 0:18:19.956 --> 0:18:22.716 the guns that will remain on the market, the guns 0:18:22.716 --> 0:18:26.916 you can still buy. There are hundreds and hundreds of 0:18:27.036 --> 0:18:31.396 weapons typically on the exemp list, stretching over many pages. 0:18:32.956 --> 0:18:35.436 Let me just read to you from the appendix of 0:18:35.476 --> 0:18:39.516 the Senate assault rifle ban introduced after Biden's speech. I've 0:18:39.556 --> 0:18:42.236 chosen at random the section that deals with guns made 0:18:42.276 --> 0:18:46.996 by the Browning Arms Company of Ogden, Utah. Browning bar 0:18:47.236 --> 0:18:51.836 Mark two, Safari Magnum Rifle, Browning bar Mark two, Safari 0:18:52.036 --> 0:18:57.396 semi auto rifle, Browning bar Stocker Rifle, Browning High Power Rifle, 0:18:57.636 --> 0:19:03.876 Browning Long Track Rifle, Browning Short Track Rifle. But the 0:19:03.876 --> 0:19:07.116 Browning High Power Rifle no one has a problem with it. 0:19:07.676 --> 0:19:12.236 Same for the Browning bar our, Safari Magnum rifle. Do 0:19:12.276 --> 0:19:14.756 you know what Browning says about the origins of their 0:19:14.836 --> 0:19:18.916 bar rifles on their website. This rifle was commissioned by 0:19:18.916 --> 0:19:21.476 the US Army in an effort to break the stalemate 0:19:21.516 --> 0:19:24.956 of trench warfare in the battlefields of France and Belgium. 0:19:25.316 --> 0:19:27.956 It is considered one of the first, and certainly one 0:19:27.996 --> 0:19:31.516 of the most effective of all the automatic centerfire light 0:19:31.596 --> 0:19:37.716 machine guns ever made. This gun perfectly legal, why because 0:19:37.756 --> 0:19:43.316 it doesn't look all black and metal and menacing. Assault 0:19:43.396 --> 0:19:47.356 Rifle bands are not really prohibitions on dangerous weapons. They 0:19:47.356 --> 0:19:50.756 are attempts to wrap a small subset of dangerous weapons 0:19:51.156 --> 0:19:56.196 ever so gently in red tape. Let's talk a little 0:19:56.236 --> 0:20:01.036 bit about the historical context of this. I'm trying to 0:20:00.996 --> 0:20:04.556 restind why, given all that you've set all of these nuances, 0:20:05.036 --> 0:20:09.476 how does the AR fifteen become such a kind of 0:20:09.996 --> 0:20:14.476 bogeyman for in this gun controlled debate, How does it 0:20:14.516 --> 0:20:17.716 become so notorious? What is your what is your interpretation 0:20:17.876 --> 0:20:21.316 of how this gun acquires such a kind of bad reputation. 0:20:23.596 --> 0:20:26.076 There was a fellow back in the late nineteen eighties 0:20:26.196 --> 0:20:31.036 named Josh Sugarman at the Vadace Policy Center, and one 0:20:31.076 --> 0:20:34.636 of the things that people who wanted to ban guns 0:20:34.756 --> 0:20:38.716 back in the sixties seventies eighties, they focused on handguns. 0:20:40.476 --> 0:20:43.356 Their call for handgun bands really never got any traction 0:20:43.476 --> 0:20:49.836 in the media or with legislators. So he published a 0:20:49.836 --> 0:20:53.116 paper that suggested that they change policy and focus on 0:20:53.156 --> 0:20:56.316 these so called assault weapons. And he said there were 0:20:56.316 --> 0:20:58.836 two things. He says, Number one, we can take advantage 0:20:58.836 --> 0:21:04.196 of the public's ignorance that they are machine guns. And 0:21:04.436 --> 0:21:07.276 even today, even today, there are a lot of people 0:21:07.356 --> 0:21:10.476 who still, like Helaldo Revere on the Vibe, I think 0:21:10.556 --> 0:21:15.316 that these AR fifteens are fully automatic weapons, and. 0:21:15.276 --> 0:21:15.956 That's a mistake. 0:21:15.996 --> 0:21:19.956 They're not. But and then he also said, and we 0:21:19.996 --> 0:21:23.556 can also take advantage of their scary looks, you know, 0:21:23.676 --> 0:21:26.636 sort of the scary black rifle kind of thing, where 0:21:27.156 --> 0:21:31.716 they're just terrifying the communicate some kind of sinister, you 0:21:31.756 --> 0:21:32.916 know effects. 0:21:33.356 --> 0:21:36.916 Wallace was talking about a hugely influential report that came 0:21:36.956 --> 0:21:39.636 out before the first assault rifle ban was passed in 0:21:39.636 --> 0:21:42.676 the nineteen nineties that really put the issue on the map. 0:21:43.316 --> 0:21:45.396 I looked it up after Wallace told me about it. 0:21:45.836 --> 0:21:49.516 Here's the conclusion, which I have to say astounded me. 0:21:50.556 --> 0:21:55.076 Assault weapons, just like armor piercing bullets, machine guns and 0:21:55.116 --> 0:22:00.036 plastic firearms, are a new topic. The weapons menacing looks, 0:22:00.436 --> 0:22:05.036 coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns 0:22:05.236 --> 0:22:09.636 versus semi automatic assault weapons, anything that looks like a 0:22:09.676 --> 0:22:13.396 machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun can 0:22:13.476 --> 0:22:17.396 only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on 0:22:17.516 --> 0:22:23.116 these weapons. The campaign against assault rifles was predicated on 0:22:23.236 --> 0:22:27.356 the assumption that most of us don't really know what 0:22:27.396 --> 0:22:28.476 an assault rifle is. 0:22:36.636 --> 0:22:40.396 In nineteen eighty eight, as a result of an increase 0:22:40.436 --> 0:22:47.036 that we'd seen in incidents involving assault weapons, I wrote 0:22:47.036 --> 0:22:50.956 a study called Sault Accessories in America that laid out 0:22:51.276 --> 0:22:54.396 the fact that we're seeing this new trend as far 0:22:54.476 --> 0:22:58.796 as weapons being designed and marketed by the firearms industry, 0:22:59.156 --> 0:23:01.916 and really warned that this was a dangerous new shift 0:23:01.916 --> 0:23:02.436 that we were. 0:23:02.356 --> 0:23:07.836 Saying, Josh Sugreman, Executive director of the Violence Policy Institute, 0:23:08.556 --> 0:23:12.356 and that the were you one of the first voices 0:23:12.476 --> 0:23:16.396 to kind of point out the rise of assault weapons 0:23:16.276 --> 0:23:17.676 as a problem? 0:23:18.556 --> 0:23:21.636 Yes, I was one of the first voices to focus 0:23:21.676 --> 0:23:26.236 on assault weapons. That really was because of Historically, the 0:23:26.316 --> 0:23:31.756 Violence Policy Center has tracked the gun industry, tracked their trends, 0:23:31.836 --> 0:23:33.796 track what they're marketing, what they're developing. 0:23:35.476 --> 0:23:37.836 I called Sugarman up right after I got back from 0:23:37.916 --> 0:23:41.156 North Carolina. His group has been at the forefront of 0:23:41.196 --> 0:23:45.276 the assault rifle ban movement since the nineteen nineties, strategy 0:23:45.596 --> 0:23:50.476 research the thinking behind legislation. A few years ago, for example, 0:23:50.756 --> 0:23:55.276 his outfit published bullet Hoses semi Automatic assault Weapons? What 0:23:55.316 --> 0:23:59.396 are they? What's so bad about them? First chapter is 0:23:59.436 --> 0:24:03.156 a short ten point executive summary of the group's position. 0:24:03.796 --> 0:24:06.676 And let me read to you the first four points. 0:24:08.396 --> 0:24:08.636 One. 0:24:09.516 --> 0:24:14.116 Semi automatic assault weapons are civilian versions of military assault weapons. 0:24:14.716 --> 0:24:19.916 There are virtually no significant differences between them. Two military 0:24:19.956 --> 0:24:25.236