1
00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,036
Speaker 1: Pushkin. In June of twenty twenty two, just after Memorial Day,

2
00:00:24,516 --> 00:00:27,476
Speaker 1: President Biden gave the first major gun control speech of

3
00:00:27,556 --> 00:00:31,436
Speaker 1: his presidency. He had just come back from Uvaldi, Texas,

4
00:00:31,756 --> 00:00:34,676
Speaker 1: where twenty one people had been killed by a mass shooter,

5
00:00:35,196 --> 00:00:37,836
Speaker 1: and twelve days before that, he had gone to Buffalo,

6
00:00:37,916 --> 00:00:40,716
Speaker 1: New York, where a gunman had murdered ten people in

7
00:00:40,756 --> 00:00:41,636
Speaker 1: a grocery store.

8
00:00:42,956 --> 00:00:46,876
Speaker 2: At both places, we spent hours with hundreds of family

9
00:00:46,876 --> 00:00:50,956
Speaker 2: members who were broken. Those lives will never be the same.

10
00:00:52,236 --> 00:00:55,636
Speaker 2: They had one message for all of us. Do something.

11
00:00:56,556 --> 00:01:01,596
Speaker 2: Just do something, for God's sake, do something. I know

12
00:01:01,636 --> 00:01:04,596
Speaker 2: that we can't prevent every tragedy, but here's what I

13
00:01:04,636 --> 00:01:08,916
Speaker 2: believe we have to do. Here's what the overwhelming majority

14
00:01:08,876 --> 00:01:12,276
Speaker 2: of means. Here can people believe we must do. Here's

15
00:01:12,316 --> 00:01:16,516
Speaker 2: what the families in Buffalo and Uvaldi in Texas told

16
00:01:16,556 --> 00:01:20,076
Speaker 2: us we must do. We need to ban assault weapons

17
00:01:20,116 --> 00:01:21,676
Speaker 2: and high capacity magazines.

18
00:01:22,916 --> 00:01:26,516
Speaker 1: President Obama made the same plea here. He is talking

19
00:01:26,596 --> 00:01:30,156
Speaker 1: about the twenty twelve shooting in Aurora, Colorado, where a

20
00:01:30,196 --> 00:01:33,996
Speaker 1: gunman with an assault rifle killed twelve people and wounded

21
00:01:34,076 --> 00:01:35,036
Speaker 1: another fifty eight.

22
00:01:36,076 --> 00:01:39,836
Speaker 3: Weapons designed for the theater of war have no place

23
00:01:39,996 --> 00:01:44,636
Speaker 3: in a movie theater. A majority of Americans agree with

24
00:01:44,716 --> 00:01:48,516
Speaker 3: us on this, and by the way, so did Ronald Reagan,

25
00:01:49,036 --> 00:01:51,836
Speaker 3: one of the staunchest defenders of the Second Amendment, who

26
00:01:51,876 --> 00:01:55,116
Speaker 3: wrote to Congress in nineteen ninety four urging them. This

27
00:01:55,156 --> 00:01:59,236
Speaker 3: is Ronald Reagan speaking, urging them to listen to the

28
00:01:59,236 --> 00:02:02,756
Speaker 3: American public and to the law enforcement community and support

29
00:02:02,796 --> 00:02:06,756
Speaker 3: a ban on the further manufacture of military style assault weapons.

30
00:02:07,356 --> 00:02:10,756
Speaker 1: Not to mention Bill Clinton, Bill Clinton went on about

31
00:02:10,756 --> 00:02:12,956
Speaker 1: assault rifles so much he got sick of it.

32
00:02:13,836 --> 00:02:17,676
Speaker 4: But I'm telling you, it's amazing to me that we

33
00:02:17,716 --> 00:02:22,556
Speaker 4: even have to have this debate. I mean, how long

34
00:02:22,596 --> 00:02:23,996
Speaker 4: are we going to let this go on?

35
00:02:25,116 --> 00:02:28,436
Speaker 1: And then Clinton concluded with something close to despair.

36
00:02:29,556 --> 00:02:32,236
Speaker 4: I'm sorry to be so frustrated, but sometimes it seems

37
00:02:32,236 --> 00:02:35,956
Speaker 4: that the president's job, i'll to be dealing with things

38
00:02:36,036 --> 00:02:37,156
Speaker 4: that are not obvious.

39
00:02:40,036 --> 00:02:43,436
Speaker 1: For the past thirty years, banning assault weapons has been

40
00:02:43,476 --> 00:02:46,836
Speaker 1: the rallying cry of the gun control movement. Every time

41
00:02:46,916 --> 00:02:49,876
Speaker 1: a mass shooter attacks somewhere in the United States, dressed

42
00:02:50,276 --> 00:02:53,396
Speaker 1: in full army camo with a full on military assault

43
00:02:53,476 --> 00:02:57,316
Speaker 1: weapon slung over their shoulder, the issue comes up again.

44
00:02:58,316 --> 00:03:01,676
Speaker 1: And next week or next month, when another mass shooter strikes,

45
00:03:02,076 --> 00:03:03,396
Speaker 1: you will hear this speech again.

46
00:03:04,116 --> 00:03:07,276
Speaker 2: A few years ago, the family of the inventor of

47
00:03:07,316 --> 00:03:11,756
Speaker 2: VAR fifteen, he would have been horrified to know that

48
00:03:11,796 --> 00:03:15,316
Speaker 2: the design was being used as slaughtered children and other

49
00:03:15,396 --> 00:03:18,676
Speaker 2: innocent lives instead of being used as a military weapon

50
00:03:18,676 --> 00:03:22,356
Speaker 2: of the battlefields as was designed. That's who's dying for

51
00:03:23,596 --> 00:03:25,116
Speaker 2: enough enough.

52
00:03:28,836 --> 00:03:31,956
Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History,

53
00:03:32,116 --> 00:03:36,956
Speaker 1: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is

54
00:03:36,956 --> 00:03:42,196
Speaker 1: about assault rifles, the most hated gun in America. Because

55
00:03:42,196 --> 00:03:45,836
Speaker 1: midway through this miniseries on gun violence, I realized that

56
00:03:45,916 --> 00:03:48,476
Speaker 1: I didn't understand why this gun, out of all the

57
00:03:48,516 --> 00:03:52,036
Speaker 1: guns in America, was the weapon that so many people

58
00:03:52,476 --> 00:03:56,916
Speaker 1: wanted to ban. There are a hundred proposals out there

59
00:03:57,076 --> 00:04:00,716
Speaker 1: for confronting gun violence, should this one be at the

60
00:04:00,756 --> 00:04:04,236
Speaker 1: top of the list. So I looked for someone who

61
00:04:04,236 --> 00:04:07,436
Speaker 1: could give me an assault rifle tutorial, and I chose

62
00:04:07,476 --> 00:04:13,516
Speaker 1: as my teacher, Greg Waller, gun enthusiast, competitive shooter, college professor,

63
00:04:13,996 --> 00:04:17,676
Speaker 1: hockey fan, big friendly guy with gray hair, author of

64
00:04:17,716 --> 00:04:21,076
Speaker 1: a number of scholarly law review articles on assault weapons

65
00:04:21,236 --> 00:04:25,396
Speaker 1: and their implications. And I should point out one of

66
00:04:25,436 --> 00:04:28,956
Speaker 1: the leaders of the other side of the assault weapons battle,

67
00:04:29,156 --> 00:04:31,956
Speaker 1: which is what I wanted, someone who would tell me

68
00:04:31,996 --> 00:04:35,916
Speaker 1: things I didn't know, and, given all my predictable liberal biases,

69
00:04:36,276 --> 00:04:41,476
Speaker 1: maybe things I might not want to know. Greg Wallace

70
00:04:41,516 --> 00:04:45,676
Speaker 1: and I didn't talk politics or the Second Amendment or

71
00:04:45,716 --> 00:04:49,036
Speaker 1: the NRA. We just talked guns.

72
00:04:56,636 --> 00:04:58,916
Speaker 5: Close up wind over there that son maybe come here?

73
00:04:59,236 --> 00:05:00,716
Speaker 6: Got it?

74
00:05:02,276 --> 00:05:05,716
Speaker 1: The tutorial began in his office at Campbell Law School

75
00:05:05,876 --> 00:05:09,876
Speaker 1: in Durham, North Carolina. Wallace put a large black nylon

76
00:05:09,956 --> 00:05:12,716
Speaker 1: bag on his desk and took out the gun in question.

77
00:05:13,956 --> 00:05:14,596
Speaker 7: It is a.

78
00:05:16,036 --> 00:05:19,596
Speaker 8: Because I told you it was a felony to bring

79
00:05:19,636 --> 00:05:23,436
Speaker 8: a firearm on educational campus in North Carolina.

80
00:05:24,396 --> 00:05:30,916
Speaker 5: But there is a nice exception for educational purposes. And

81
00:05:31,956 --> 00:05:36,836
Speaker 5: I have my get out of jail free letter here

82
00:05:36,916 --> 00:05:37,556
Speaker 5: from the Dean.

83
00:05:39,196 --> 00:05:42,236
Speaker 1: It was an AR fifteen, the most popular brand of

84
00:05:42,276 --> 00:05:44,676
Speaker 1: assault rifle sold in the United States.

85
00:05:45,316 --> 00:05:48,076
Speaker 5: Does the AR stand for Armor White Rifle?

86
00:05:48,156 --> 00:05:48,316
Speaker 7: Oh?

87
00:05:48,396 --> 00:05:51,196
Speaker 5: Armley, Yeah, yeah, the company that laid it.

88
00:05:52,396 --> 00:05:55,316
Speaker 1: In the Second World War, American soldiers used a rifle

89
00:05:55,356 --> 00:05:57,796
Speaker 1: called the M one. You've seen one, I'm sure in

90
00:05:57,836 --> 00:06:02,076
Speaker 1: war movies. Long, slender, unadorned. The body of the rifle

91
00:06:02,276 --> 00:06:04,796
Speaker 1: is made of walnut with a metal gun barrel poking

92
00:06:04,796 --> 00:06:07,796
Speaker 1: out of one end. An AR fifteen belongs to the

93
00:06:07,836 --> 00:06:11,596
Speaker 1: generation of military weapons that followed the M one, made

94
00:06:11,636 --> 00:06:13,876
Speaker 1: out of metal with plastic in the stock in the

95
00:06:13,916 --> 00:06:18,556
Speaker 1: handguard black, much lighter than its predecessor, firing a less powerful,

96
00:06:18,756 --> 00:06:19,596
Speaker 1: smaller bullet.

97
00:06:20,676 --> 00:06:21,796
Speaker 5: It's a trade off.

98
00:06:21,956 --> 00:06:29,316
Speaker 7: Do you go with more rounds of a perhaps less lethal,

99
00:06:29,436 --> 00:06:33,676
Speaker 7: still lethal, but less so, and allow the soldier to

100
00:06:33,716 --> 00:06:37,276
Speaker 7: carry more rounds, or do you go with the larger,

101
00:06:37,996 --> 00:06:41,436
Speaker 7: more lethal round but they can't carry as many and

102
00:06:41,516 --> 00:06:45,636
Speaker 7: that's the trade off, and the military decided to go

103
00:06:45,676 --> 00:06:46,796
Speaker 7: with the smaller round.

104
00:06:47,716 --> 00:06:51,796
Speaker 1: The thinking was a lighter, less powerful weapon makes less noise,

105
00:06:52,236 --> 00:06:54,956
Speaker 1: produces less of a flash, so it's harder to spot

106
00:06:55,036 --> 00:06:58,516
Speaker 1: on the battlefield. It has less recoil compared to say,

107
00:06:58,876 --> 00:07:01,956
Speaker 1: a shotgun. Spend an afternoon hunting with a shotgun and

108
00:07:01,996 --> 00:07:04,956
Speaker 1: your shoulder will get all bruised. That gun has a

109
00:07:04,996 --> 00:07:08,316
Speaker 1: savage kick, not the AR fifteen, which makes it a

110
00:07:08,316 --> 00:07:10,916
Speaker 1: little easier to get the gun back on target and

111
00:07:10,996 --> 00:07:16,676
Speaker 1: fire off a second shot. Do you know I've never

112
00:07:16,716 --> 00:07:17,556
Speaker 1: seen one of these.

113
00:07:17,556 --> 00:07:22,356
Speaker 5: Never seen one. It is unloaded. That will check again,

114
00:07:22,996 --> 00:07:25,036
Speaker 5: so you want to hold one.

115
00:07:25,996 --> 00:07:28,756
Speaker 1: It wasn't just that I'd never seen an assault rifle before.

116
00:07:28,916 --> 00:07:31,596
Speaker 1: I'd never held a gun of any kind before when

117
00:07:31,596 --> 00:07:33,436
Speaker 1: I was growing up in Canada. I don't think I

118
00:07:33,516 --> 00:07:36,756
Speaker 1: even knew anyone who'd held a gun, not to mention

119
00:07:36,836 --> 00:07:40,316
Speaker 1: that the AR fifteen wasn't a hunting rifle, something you

120
00:07:40,356 --> 00:07:43,436
Speaker 1: shoot rabbits or deer with which I could rationalize away.

121
00:07:43,796 --> 00:07:47,556
Speaker 1: It was a weapon of war. Ugly, unsettling. I think

122
00:07:47,636 --> 00:07:50,836
Speaker 1: Wallace was a little amused by my discomfort. He tried

123
00:07:50,836 --> 00:07:53,316
Speaker 1: to reassure me. What I was holding, he said, was

124
00:07:53,356 --> 00:07:57,276
Speaker 1: the civilian version of the AR fifteen, not the military version.

125
00:07:57,596 --> 00:08:00,996
Speaker 1: They looked the same, but they were fundamentally different weapons.

126
00:08:01,836 --> 00:08:05,356
Speaker 1: So if this was an actual military AR fifteen, it

127
00:08:05,396 --> 00:08:07,396
Speaker 1: would have what how would it differ from what I'm

128
00:08:07,396 --> 00:08:08,116
Speaker 1: looking at right now?

129
00:08:08,316 --> 00:08:09,516
Speaker 5: Right would do?

130
00:08:09,916 --> 00:08:12,116
Speaker 7: Is you would have This is the switch here that

131
00:08:12,236 --> 00:08:14,076
Speaker 7: selects fire and safe.

132
00:08:14,596 --> 00:08:16,796
Speaker 1: The switch was on the side of the gun, small

133
00:08:16,916 --> 00:08:21,916
Speaker 1: but clearly marked safe is locked, fire is ready to go.

134
00:08:22,836 --> 00:08:25,636
Speaker 7: There's only two options on this because it's a semi

135
00:08:25,676 --> 00:08:29,356
Speaker 7: automatic only, so you switch it to fire and it

136
00:08:29,396 --> 00:08:31,556
Speaker 7: fires one bullet for each pull of the trigger.

137
00:08:32,276 --> 00:08:35,316
Speaker 1: The Army's AR fifteen has a different switch.

138
00:08:36,196 --> 00:08:39,396
Speaker 7: With the military weapon, it is capable of what's called

139
00:08:39,476 --> 00:08:42,596
Speaker 7: selective fire, which means there would be a third option

140
00:08:42,756 --> 00:08:47,156
Speaker 7: on here. One option would be full auto, which is

141
00:08:47,356 --> 00:08:49,676
Speaker 7: you pull the trigger and hold it down and it

142
00:08:49,756 --> 00:08:52,996
Speaker 7: fires continuously until it either runs out of ammunition or

143
00:08:53,036 --> 00:08:56,116
Speaker 7: that you let the trigger up. It can also fire

144
00:08:56,236 --> 00:08:59,116
Speaker 7: semi auto. There would be the semi auto select and

145
00:08:59,116 --> 00:09:00,316
Speaker 7: then there would be the safe.

146
00:09:00,996 --> 00:09:02,156
Speaker 9: That's the principal difference.

147
00:09:02,276 --> 00:09:06,356
Speaker 7: Yes, the real, the material difference between the two is

148
00:09:06,356 --> 00:09:08,396
Speaker 7: that one is a machine gun and the other is not.

149
00:09:09,236 --> 00:09:11,916
Speaker 1: He showed me how to hold the gun, handle it,

150
00:09:11,956 --> 00:09:14,756
Speaker 1: brief me on its history. Then we went downstairs to

151
00:09:14,796 --> 00:09:17,596
Speaker 1: his stuv and drove forty minutes to a shooting range.

152
00:09:17,596 --> 00:09:20,836
Speaker 1: He belongs to. Nothing. Fancy a little shed in the

153
00:09:20,836 --> 00:09:23,236
Speaker 1: midst of some piney woods where you sign in a

154
00:09:23,316 --> 00:09:26,156
Speaker 1: series of long shooting alleys scooped out of the side

155
00:09:26,156 --> 00:09:29,156
Speaker 1: of a hill. We set up cardboard targets in the

156
00:09:29,156 --> 00:09:32,996
Speaker 1: shape of a man's head and torso put on ear protection.

157
00:09:38,556 --> 00:09:40,876
Speaker 8: All right, we're gonna start off with this one right here.

158
00:09:41,516 --> 00:09:48,116
Speaker 8: This is a it's a custom built AR fifteen. It

159
00:09:48,156 --> 00:09:51,596
Speaker 8: has the adjustable stock. It has a fourteen and a

160
00:09:51,676 --> 00:09:55,116
Speaker 8: half inch barrel. But with this right here, this muzzle

161
00:09:55,196 --> 00:09:59,036
Speaker 8: device is pinned and welded on it, so the barrel

162
00:09:59,116 --> 00:10:02,916
Speaker 8: is sixteen inches long. If it's not sixteen inches long,

163
00:10:03,036 --> 00:10:06,076
Speaker 8: if it's shorter than that, it's called a short barrel rifle,

164
00:10:06,316 --> 00:10:09,996
Speaker 8: and you have to register it with the ATF and

165
00:10:10,116 --> 00:10:11,556
Speaker 8: pay a two hundred dollars tax.

166
00:10:11,596 --> 00:10:11,916
Speaker 6: Snap.

167
00:10:11,996 --> 00:10:15,196
Speaker 8: Okay, uh, this is legal, I mean obviously.

168
00:10:17,236 --> 00:10:17,636
Speaker 6: All right.

169
00:10:18,396 --> 00:10:21,516
Speaker 8: You want to shoot it? Yeah, okay, all right, I will.

170
00:10:22,116 --> 00:10:26,356
Speaker 8: Let's get you comfortable on this here, so see if

171
00:10:26,396 --> 00:10:29,116
Speaker 8: that works. Now, what you need to do is to

172
00:10:29,596 --> 00:10:32,516
Speaker 8: hold it up here, okay, all right, and then you

173
00:10:32,556 --> 00:10:34,396
Speaker 8: need to lean your head over a little bit where

174
00:10:34,476 --> 00:10:37,356
Speaker 8: you can see with your You keep looking with.

175
00:10:37,356 --> 00:10:39,036
Speaker 6: Your right eye. You want to see that. You want

176
00:10:39,036 --> 00:10:43,556
Speaker 6: to find the red dot in there. You see it?

177
00:10:43,916 --> 00:10:44,196
Speaker 9: Yep?

178
00:10:44,556 --> 00:10:46,676
Speaker 8: This time you want to come out here and take

179
00:10:46,716 --> 00:10:49,596
Speaker 8: this one up and hold it right here. Okay, put

180
00:10:49,596 --> 00:10:51,676
Speaker 8: your finger up on the side. There we go.

181
00:10:51,796 --> 00:10:51,996
Speaker 3: Yep.

182
00:10:52,076 --> 00:10:54,316
Speaker 8: I want you to bring your left foot forward, get

183
00:10:54,356 --> 00:10:56,716
Speaker 8: in that like kind of boxing stance. There you go,

184
00:10:56,876 --> 00:10:59,836
Speaker 8: there you go, all right, bend forward, just a little bit.

185
00:10:59,916 --> 00:11:02,796
Speaker 8: All right, now we're going I'm gonna take it off

186
00:11:02,796 --> 00:11:05,516
Speaker 8: of safety. Now, once you touch that trigger, once the

187
00:11:05,556 --> 00:11:09,396
Speaker 8: safety goes off, it will fire. Okay, all right, yeah,

188
00:11:09,956 --> 00:11:10,596
Speaker 8: so aim it?

189
00:11:16,716 --> 00:11:16,916
Speaker 6: Who?

190
00:11:18,756 --> 00:11:19,036
Speaker 9: Lord?

191
00:11:19,676 --> 00:11:25,676
Speaker 6: That would What did you think about that? Jesus kicked it?

192
00:11:25,796 --> 00:11:27,276
Speaker 6: Did it kick a lot? Well?

193
00:11:27,396 --> 00:11:27,636
Speaker 9: Wasn't that?

194
00:11:28,036 --> 00:11:30,916
Speaker 1: It's just the sudden awareness of the there's.

195
00:11:30,676 --> 00:11:34,036
Speaker 6: A Yeah, it's a surprise.

196
00:11:34,196 --> 00:11:36,196
Speaker 8: I mean it is. The very first time you do it,

197
00:11:36,756 --> 00:11:40,476
Speaker 8: you get used to the sort of what would you

198
00:11:40,516 --> 00:11:42,196
Speaker 8: call violence of it, you.

199
00:11:42,156 --> 00:11:42,836
Speaker 1: Know, cussive?

200
00:11:43,076 --> 00:11:55,036
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah.

201
00:11:55,076 --> 00:11:58,756
Speaker 1: My first question for Wallace was what makes an assault

202
00:11:58,836 --> 00:12:02,036
Speaker 1: rifle an assault rifle? What was it that I was

203
00:12:02,076 --> 00:12:05,476
Speaker 1: holding when I fired it? It sounded like I imagined

204
00:12:05,476 --> 00:12:08,636
Speaker 1: a gun would sound like, and felt just like I

205
00:12:08,676 --> 00:12:11,116
Speaker 1: had imagined and a gun would feel like. So what

206
00:12:11,236 --> 00:12:14,436
Speaker 1: made this gun different from other guns? I thought there

207
00:12:14,436 --> 00:12:17,196
Speaker 1: would be an easy answer. It turns out there wasn't.

208
00:12:17,836 --> 00:12:20,796
Speaker 7: One of the things about the AR fifteen is some

209
00:12:20,836 --> 00:12:26,116
Speaker 7: people have called it the Lego of modern rifles because

210
00:12:26,956 --> 00:12:32,236
Speaker 7: you can put a lot of different things on it. Yes,

211
00:12:32,316 --> 00:12:35,436
Speaker 7: so this has got a scope on it rather than

212
00:12:35,516 --> 00:12:38,356
Speaker 7: just the red dot site there, It's got a scope

213
00:12:38,476 --> 00:12:41,996
Speaker 7: one to ten scope. It also has this red dot

214
00:12:42,036 --> 00:12:45,436
Speaker 7: here that I can flip it to the side and

215
00:12:45,556 --> 00:12:49,156
Speaker 7: aim it if I'm going from scope to red dot

216
00:12:49,276 --> 00:12:55,916
Speaker 7: like that. It has a flashlight on it, and it

217
00:12:55,996 --> 00:13:00,356
Speaker 7: has a little handstop here, a little grip stuff.

218
00:13:01,796 --> 00:13:04,676
Speaker 1: What he meant by that phrase the lego of modern

219
00:13:04,756 --> 00:13:09,596
Speaker 1: rifles was that the AR fifteen was endlessly configurable. It's

220
00:13:09,636 --> 00:13:11,556
Speaker 1: not like a Smith and Wesson six shooter from the

221
00:13:11,596 --> 00:13:15,196
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, or a colonial musket, or even the shotgun

222
00:13:15,356 --> 00:13:17,796
Speaker 1: that your parents might have had. We all have a

223
00:13:17,796 --> 00:13:20,876
Speaker 1: picture in our mind of what those guns look like,

224
00:13:21,436 --> 00:13:24,836
Speaker 1: but an AR fifteen is more like a firearm platform

225
00:13:24,876 --> 00:13:28,876
Speaker 1: than a specific kind of gun. Its most distinctive feature,

226
00:13:29,236 --> 00:13:31,836
Speaker 1: which you can always use to spot an assault rifle,

227
00:13:32,276 --> 00:13:34,236
Speaker 1: is a tube that runs along the top of the

228
00:13:34,236 --> 00:13:37,956
Speaker 1: gun barrel. It's an ingenious system that redirects gas is

229
00:13:37,996 --> 00:13:41,196
Speaker 1: expelled from the bullet, leaving the gun to reload the

230
00:13:41,236 --> 00:13:44,916
Speaker 1: next bullet in the chamber. But that platform supports a

231
00:13:45,036 --> 00:13:49,196
Speaker 1: virtually infinite number of add ons and upgrades. You can

232
00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:52,236
Speaker 1: replace the gun sight and gun jargon, the optic to

233
00:13:52,316 --> 00:13:54,836
Speaker 1: let you see the target better, a place the trigger

234
00:13:55,116 --> 00:13:57,996
Speaker 1: with something that feels more comfortable upgrade what's called the

235
00:13:58,036 --> 00:14:00,636
Speaker 1: bolt carrier the guts of the rifle. To reduce the

236
00:14:00,716 --> 00:14:03,436
Speaker 1: chance of jamming, put a muzzle flash hidher on it

237
00:14:03,556 --> 00:14:06,156
Speaker 1: so the gun doesn't light up when it fires. A

238
00:14:06,236 --> 00:14:09,596
Speaker 1: suppressor to reduce sound to dust. A salt rifles can

239
00:14:09,676 --> 00:14:12,396
Speaker 1: have what's called a pistol grip. When you pull the trigger,

240
00:14:12,556 --> 00:14:14,516
Speaker 1: the balance of your fingers rest on the same kind

241
00:14:14,516 --> 00:14:17,316
Speaker 1: of handle you would typically see on a handgun. There's

242
00:14:17,316 --> 00:14:20,236
Speaker 1: also something called a forward grip, dropping down from the

243
00:14:20,236 --> 00:14:22,516
Speaker 1: barrel of the gun, where you put your non shooting hand.

244
00:14:22,796 --> 00:14:25,396
Speaker 1: You can, if you want keep both, have just one,

245
00:14:25,756 --> 00:14:27,596
Speaker 1: or have none at all. The part of the gun,

246
00:14:27,756 --> 00:14:30,876
Speaker 1: the stock that rests against your shoulder, can be adjustable,

247
00:14:31,036 --> 00:14:33,236
Speaker 1: so you can fit the gun to your own dimensions.

248
00:14:33,276 --> 00:14:39,316
Speaker 1: On and on and on. So when you ban an

249
00:14:39,316 --> 00:14:44,116
Speaker 1: assault rifle, what's being banned. The assumption of most people,

250
00:14:44,156 --> 00:14:46,716
Speaker 1: I think is that the gun control movement intends to

251
00:14:46,716 --> 00:14:50,236
Speaker 1: ban the platform, But they don't. No one's looking to

252
00:14:50,276 --> 00:14:54,356
Speaker 1: ban the distinctive gas to reloading system, or more ambitiously,

253
00:14:54,596 --> 00:14:57,196
Speaker 1: the category of light, easy to carry and handle semi

254
00:14:57,236 --> 00:15:01,076
Speaker 1: automatic rifles. What is called an assault rifle ban is

255
00:15:01,116 --> 00:15:05,116
Speaker 1: simply an attempt to specify which lego pieces you are

256
00:15:05,556 --> 00:15:09,436
Speaker 1: and are not allowed to add to the platform. Even

257
00:15:09,516 --> 00:15:12,476
Speaker 1: the federal ban on assault rifles in place from nineteen

258
00:15:12,556 --> 00:15:14,956
Speaker 1: ninety four to two thousand and four was just a

259
00:15:14,996 --> 00:15:17,676
Speaker 1: ban on some of the add ons in that law.

260
00:15:18,036 --> 00:15:21,476
Speaker 1: Congress made a short list of the most problematic modifications

261
00:15:21,516 --> 00:15:24,076
Speaker 1: to the rifle platform and said you could only have

262
00:15:24,156 --> 00:15:27,796
Speaker 1: one of them. The Senate bill, introduced after Biden's speech

263
00:15:27,996 --> 00:15:31,676
Speaker 1: makes a slightly longer list of problematic modifications and says

264
00:15:31,876 --> 00:15:35,436
Speaker 1: you can't use any of them. Now, do the lego

265
00:15:35,516 --> 00:15:38,556
Speaker 1: pieces on those lists actually make the gun more dangerous?

266
00:15:39,156 --> 00:15:43,716
Speaker 1: Not really more comfortable maybe or easier to clean and handle.

267
00:15:44,396 --> 00:15:47,196
Speaker 1: But ninety nine percent of the lethality of an assault

268
00:15:47,276 --> 00:15:51,196
Speaker 1: rifle is in the platform. When we were at the range,

269
00:15:51,196 --> 00:15:54,036
Speaker 1: for example, Wallace went on at some length about another

270
00:15:54,076 --> 00:15:57,596
Speaker 1: of the modifications that comes up in assault weapons discussions.

271
00:15:58,076 --> 00:16:03,756
Speaker 1: Magazine size magazines are the rectangular metal boxes that hold ammunition.

272
00:16:04,596 --> 00:16:07,516
Speaker 1: In keeping with its status as a lego of rifles,

273
00:16:07,716 --> 00:16:09,876
Speaker 1: you can go on the Internet and any number of

274
00:16:09,956 --> 00:16:14,196
Speaker 1: replacement magazines for your gun that hold thirty rounds or

275
00:16:14,236 --> 00:16:17,516
Speaker 1: even fifty rounds. So one of the things that assault

276
00:16:17,596 --> 00:16:20,396
Speaker 1: rifle bands tend to do is prohibit the sale of

277
00:16:20,516 --> 00:16:24,236
Speaker 1: magazines that hold more than ten bullets. The thinking is,

278
00:16:24,676 --> 00:16:27,276
Speaker 1: why make things easier on the mass shooter. Make him

279
00:16:27,316 --> 00:16:31,356
Speaker 1: change magazines two or three or four times. Wallace showed

280
00:16:31,396 --> 00:16:34,236
Speaker 1: me what this means in practice. He held his gun

281
00:16:34,276 --> 00:16:37,396
Speaker 1: with one hand and reached for a spare magazine on

282
00:16:37,436 --> 00:16:38,276
Speaker 1: his belt.

283
00:16:38,756 --> 00:16:41,356
Speaker 8: What you would do is you would have like a

284
00:16:41,436 --> 00:16:46,276
Speaker 8: magazine change. So let's say he's out, so he's going

285
00:16:46,316 --> 00:16:50,156
Speaker 8: to do this right here, and he's ready to go again. Now,

286
00:16:50,156 --> 00:16:53,196
Speaker 8: how long did it take to change that magazine? Just

287
00:16:53,236 --> 00:16:55,756
Speaker 8: a couple of seconds. And one of the things that

288
00:16:55,796 --> 00:17:00,596
Speaker 8: the people who say, well, we gotta make magazine changes

289
00:17:00,636 --> 00:17:03,796
Speaker 8: more often make smaller magazines, so he'll have to change

290
00:17:03,796 --> 00:17:06,756
Speaker 8: more often. If you were lying down on the ground there,

291
00:17:07,916 --> 00:17:10,796
Speaker 8: could you get up and attack me in the time

292
00:17:10,836 --> 00:17:13,956
Speaker 8: it took me to change that magazine? No, probably could.

293
00:17:14,796 --> 00:17:16,596
Speaker 8: I mean you probably could, so.

294
00:17:18,716 --> 00:17:19,836
Speaker 6: I'd have you do it, But don't want you to

295
00:17:19,876 --> 00:17:20,796
Speaker 6: get to close all already.

296
00:17:20,956 --> 00:17:27,196
Speaker 8: But when you're in a closed area and people are

297
00:17:27,236 --> 00:17:30,756
Speaker 8: down on the floor, it's going to be a rare

298
00:17:30,876 --> 00:17:33,596
Speaker 8: situation where somebody is going to be able to jump

299
00:17:33,716 --> 00:17:38,876
Speaker 8: up and subdue the shooter while he's changing a magazine.

300
00:17:39,636 --> 00:17:42,236
Speaker 1: Well, it's this point, was it? Limiting magazines was the

301
00:17:42,356 --> 00:17:44,716
Speaker 1: kind of thing that sounded like a good idea to

302
00:17:44,836 --> 00:17:48,396
Speaker 1: people who didn't know anything about guns, or who were

303
00:17:48,396 --> 00:17:52,236
Speaker 1: too squeamish to think about the way mass shooters actually behaved.

304
00:17:53,316 --> 00:17:58,196
Speaker 8: And then you have mass shooters with several guns, different guns,

305
00:17:58,276 --> 00:18:00,916
Speaker 8: multiple guns, and if they're done with one, they just

306
00:18:00,996 --> 00:18:03,036
Speaker 8: drop it and they pick up the other one. It's

307
00:18:03,036 --> 00:18:04,916
Speaker 8: about as fast as a magazine change.

308
00:18:05,716 --> 00:18:07,956
Speaker 1: How is a mass shooter being deterred by this kind

309
00:18:07,956 --> 00:18:10,716
Speaker 1: of legislation? And by the way, have you ever looked

310
00:18:10,756 --> 00:18:14,436
Speaker 1: at the appendix to a typical assault rifle ban. Right

311
00:18:14,436 --> 00:18:17,196
Speaker 1: after they catalog the short list of guns that will

312
00:18:17,236 --> 00:18:19,916
Speaker 1: be made illegal, they run a very long list of

313
00:18:19,956 --> 00:18:22,716
Speaker 1: the guns that will remain on the market, the guns

314
00:18:22,716 --> 00:18:26,916
Speaker 1: you can still buy. There are hundreds and hundreds of

315
00:18:27,036 --> 00:18:31,396
Speaker 1: weapons typically on the exemp list, stretching over many pages.

316
00:18:32,956 --> 00:18:35,436
Speaker 1: Let me just read to you from the appendix of

317
00:18:35,476 --> 00:18:39,516
Speaker 1: the Senate assault rifle ban introduced after Biden's speech. I've

318
00:18:39,556 --> 00:18:42,236
Speaker 1: chosen at random the section that deals with guns made

319
00:18:42,276 --> 00:18:46,996
Speaker 1: by the Browning Arms Company of Ogden, Utah. Browning bar

320
00:18:47,236 --> 00:18:51,836
Speaker 1: Mark two, Safari Magnum Rifle, Browning bar Mark two, Safari

321
00:18:52,036 --> 00:18:57,396
Speaker 1: semi auto rifle, Browning bar Stocker Rifle, Browning High Power Rifle,

322
00:18:57,636 --> 00:19:03,876
Speaker 1: Browning Long Track Rifle, Browning Short Track Rifle. But the

323
00:19:03,876 --> 00:19:07,116
Speaker 1: Browning High Power Rifle no one has a problem with it.

324
00:19:07,676 --> 00:19:12,236
Speaker 1: Same for the Browning bar our, Safari Magnum rifle. Do

325
00:19:12,276 --> 00:19:14,756
Speaker 1: you know what Browning says about the origins of their

326
00:19:14,836 --> 00:19:18,916
Speaker 1: bar rifles on their website. This rifle was commissioned by

327
00:19:18,916 --> 00:19:21,476
Speaker 1: the US Army in an effort to break the stalemate

328
00:19:21,516 --> 00:19:24,956
Speaker 1: of trench warfare in the battlefields of France and Belgium.

329
00:19:25,316 --> 00:19:27,956
Speaker 1: It is considered one of the first, and certainly one

330
00:19:27,996 --> 00:19:31,516
Speaker 1: of the most effective of all the automatic centerfire light

331
00:19:31,596 --> 00:19:37,716
Speaker 1: machine guns ever made. This gun perfectly legal, why because

332
00:19:37,756 --> 00:19:43,316
Speaker 1: it doesn't look all black and metal and menacing. Assault

333
00:19:43,396 --> 00:19:47,356
Speaker 1: Rifle bands are not really prohibitions on dangerous weapons. They

334
00:19:47,356 --> 00:19:50,756
Speaker 1: are attempts to wrap a small subset of dangerous weapons

335
00:19:51,156 --> 00:19:56,196
Speaker 1: ever so gently in red tape. Let's talk a little

336
00:19:56,236 --> 00:20:01,036
Speaker 1: bit about the historical context of this. I'm trying to

337
00:20:00,996 --> 00:20:04,556
Speaker 1: restind why, given all that you've set all of these nuances,

338
00:20:05,036 --> 00:20:09,476
Speaker 1: how does the AR fifteen become such a kind of

339
00:20:09,996 --> 00:20:14,476
Speaker 1: bogeyman for in this gun controlled debate, How does it

340
00:20:14,516 --> 00:20:17,716
Speaker 1: become so notorious? What is your what is your interpretation

341
00:20:17,876 --> 00:20:21,316
Speaker 1: of how this gun acquires such a kind of bad reputation.

342
00:20:23,596 --> 00:20:26,076
Speaker 7: There was a fellow back in the late nineteen eighties

343
00:20:26,196 --> 00:20:31,036
Speaker 7: named Josh Sugarman at the Vadace Policy Center, and one

344
00:20:31,076 --> 00:20:34,636
Speaker 7: of the things that people who wanted to ban guns

345
00:20:34,756 --> 00:20:38,716
Speaker 7: back in the sixties seventies eighties, they focused on handguns.

346
00:20:40,476 --> 00:20:43,356
Speaker 7: Their call for handgun bands really never got any traction

347
00:20:43,476 --> 00:20:49,836
Speaker 7: in the media or with legislators. So he published a

348
00:20:49,836 --> 00:20:53,116
Speaker 7: paper that suggested that they change policy and focus on

349
00:20:53,156 --> 00:20:56,316
Speaker 7: these so called assault weapons. And he said there were

350
00:20:56,316 --> 00:20:58,836
Speaker 7: two things. He says, Number one, we can take advantage

351
00:20:58,836 --> 00:21:04,196
Speaker 7: of the public's ignorance that they are machine guns. And

352
00:21:04,436 --> 00:21:07,276
Speaker 7: even today, even today, there are a lot of people

353
00:21:07,356 --> 00:21:10,476
Speaker 7: who still, like Helaldo Revere on the Vibe, I think

354
00:21:10,556 --> 00:21:15,316
Speaker 7: that these AR fifteens are fully automatic weapons, and.

355
00:21:15,276 --> 00:21:15,956
Speaker 5: That's a mistake.

356
00:21:15,996 --> 00:21:19,956
Speaker 7: They're not. But and then he also said, and we

357
00:21:19,996 --> 00:21:23,556
Speaker 7: can also take advantage of their scary looks, you know,

358
00:21:23,676 --> 00:21:26,636
Speaker 7: sort of the scary black rifle kind of thing, where

359
00:21:27,156 --> 00:21:31,716
Speaker 7: they're just terrifying the communicate some kind of sinister, you

360
00:21:31,756 --> 00:21:32,916
Speaker 7: know effects.

361
00:21:33,356 --> 00:21:36,916
Speaker 1: Wallace was talking about a hugely influential report that came

362
00:21:36,956 --> 00:21:39,636
Speaker 1: out before the first assault rifle ban was passed in

363
00:21:39,636 --> 00:21:42,676
Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties that really put the issue on the map.

364
00:21:43,316 --> 00:21:45,396
Speaker 1: I looked it up after Wallace told me about it.

365
00:21:45,836 --> 00:21:49,516
Speaker 1: Here's the conclusion, which I have to say astounded me.

366
00:21:50,556 --> 00:21:55,076
Speaker 1: Assault weapons, just like armor piercing bullets, machine guns and

367
00:21:55,116 --> 00:22:00,036
Speaker 1: plastic firearms, are a new topic. The weapons menacing looks,

368
00:22:00,436 --> 00:22:05,036
Speaker 1: coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns

369
00:22:05,236 --> 00:22:09,636
Speaker 1: versus semi automatic assault weapons, anything that looks like a

370
00:22:09,676 --> 00:22:13,396
Speaker 1: machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun can

371
00:22:13,476 --> 00:22:17,396
Speaker 1: only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on

372
00:22:17,516 --> 00:22:23,116
Speaker 1: these weapons. The campaign against assault rifles was predicated on

373
00:22:23,236 --> 00:22:27,356
Speaker 1: the assumption that most of us don't really know what

374
00:22:27,396 --> 00:22:28,476
Speaker 1: an assault rifle is.

375
00:22:36,636 --> 00:22:40,396
Speaker 10: In nineteen eighty eight, as a result of an increase

376
00:22:40,436 --> 00:22:47,036
Speaker 10: that we'd seen in incidents involving assault weapons, I wrote

377
00:22:47,036 --> 00:22:50,956
Speaker 10: a study called Sault Accessories in America that laid out

378
00:22:51,276 --> 00:22:54,396
Speaker 10: the fact that we're seeing this new trend as far

379
00:22:54,476 --> 00:22:58,796
Speaker 10: as weapons being designed and marketed by the firearms industry,

380
00:22:59,156 --> 00:23:01,916
Speaker 10: and really warned that this was a dangerous new shift

381
00:23:01,916 --> 00:23:02,436
Speaker 10: that we were.

382
00:23:02,356 --> 00:23:07,836
Speaker 1: Saying, Josh Sugreman, Executive director of the Violence Policy Institute,

383
00:23:08,556 --> 00:23:12,356
Speaker 1: and that the were you one of the first voices

384
00:23:12,476 --> 00:23:16,396
Speaker 1: to kind of point out the rise of assault weapons

385
00:23:16,276 --> 00:23:17,676
Speaker 1: as a problem?

386
00:23:18,556 --> 00:23:21,636
Speaker 10: Yes, I was one of the first voices to focus

387
00:23:21,676 --> 00:23:26,236
Speaker 10: on assault weapons. That really was because of Historically, the

388
00:23:26,316 --> 00:23:31,756
Speaker 10: Violence Policy Center has tracked the gun industry, tracked their trends,

389
00:23:31,836 --> 00:23:33,796
Speaker 10: track what they're marketing, what they're developing.

390
00:23:35,476 --> 00:23:37,836
Speaker 1: I called Sugarman up right after I got back from

391
00:23:37,916 --> 00:23:41,156
Speaker 1: North Carolina. His group has been at the forefront of

392
00:23:41,196 --> 00:23:45,276
Speaker 1: the assault rifle ban movement since the nineteen nineties, strategy

393
00:23:45,596 --> 00:23:50,476
Speaker 1: research the thinking behind legislation. A few years ago, for example,

394
00:23:50,756 --> 00:23:55,276
Speaker 1: his outfit published bullet Hoses semi Automatic assault Weapons? What

395
00:23:55,316 --> 00:23:59,396
Speaker 1: are they? What's so bad about them? First chapter is

396
00:23:59,436 --> 00:24:03,156
Speaker 1: a short ten point executive summary of the group's position.

397
00:24:03,796 --> 00:24:06,676
Speaker 1: And let me read to you the first four points.

398
00:24:08,396 --> 00:24:08,636
Speaker 3: One.

399
00:24:09,516 --> 00:24:14,116
Speaker 1: Semi automatic assault weapons are civilian versions of military assault weapons.

400
00:24:14,716 --> 00:24:19,916
Speaker 1: There are virtually no significant differences between them. Two military

401
00:24:19,956 --> 00:24:25,236
Speaker 1: assault weapons are machine guns. Three civilian assault weapons are

402
00:24:25,236 --> 00:24:30,956
Speaker 1: not machine guns. They are semi automatic weapons. Okay, then

403
00:24:30,996 --> 00:24:35,276
Speaker 1: comes s crucial point four. However, this is a distinction

404
00:24:35,396 --> 00:24:38,796
Speaker 1: without a difference in terms of killing power civilians. Semi

405
00:24:38,796 --> 00:24:43,076
Speaker 1: Automatic assault weapons incorporate all the functional design features that

406
00:24:43,156 --> 00:24:47,156
Speaker 1: make assault weapons so deadly. They are arguably more deadly

407
00:24:47,316 --> 00:24:51,556
Speaker 1: than military versions because most experts agree that semi automatic

408
00:24:51,636 --> 00:24:55,236
Speaker 1: fire is more accurate and thus more lethal than automatic fire.

409
00:24:58,876 --> 00:25:01,396
Speaker 1: According to one of the leading gun control advocates in

410
00:25:01,436 --> 00:25:05,636
Speaker 1: the country, the assault weapons the military uses and the

411
00:25:05,676 --> 00:25:09,876
Speaker 1: ones legal for civilian use are essentially idea entacle in

412
00:25:09,916 --> 00:25:14,716
Speaker 1: their killing power. Now, I had actually asked Wallace about

413
00:25:14,716 --> 00:25:17,516
Speaker 1: this when we were at the range. Could he do

414
00:25:17,876 --> 00:25:21,916
Speaker 1: a simple demonstration for me? How fast could he fire

415
00:25:22,036 --> 00:25:24,636
Speaker 1: his semi automatic assault rifle, the AR fifteen.

416
00:25:27,596 --> 00:25:28,436
Speaker 6: I actually have.

417
00:25:30,036 --> 00:25:31,516
Speaker 8: We make this a little more interesting.

418
00:25:36,196 --> 00:25:36,916
Speaker 6: I have a timer.

419
00:25:37,676 --> 00:25:38,396
Speaker 9: Uh huh.

420
00:25:38,436 --> 00:25:40,476
Speaker 1: He clipped an electronic device to his belt.

421
00:25:41,276 --> 00:25:44,236
Speaker 8: All right, thirty round magazine.

422
00:25:44,676 --> 00:25:46,316
Speaker 9: Now you're going to do this as fast as you can,

423
00:25:46,476 --> 00:26:03,676
Speaker 9: fast as I can. Okay, that was thirty That was thirty.

424
00:26:02,796 --> 00:26:05,436
Speaker 8: Wow, six point five seconds.

425
00:26:10,276 --> 00:26:13,676
Speaker 1: An assault rifle can fire a lot of bullets in

426
00:26:13,716 --> 00:26:17,356
Speaker 1: a very short time. Then he picked up a semi

427
00:26:17,396 --> 00:26:20,876
Speaker 1: automatic handgun from his gun bag and repeated the exercise.

428
00:26:21,396 --> 00:26:23,956
Speaker 1: Held the gun out with two hands, ate at the target,

429
00:26:24,276 --> 00:26:27,036
Speaker 1: fired off ten shots as fast as he could.

430
00:26:33,356 --> 00:26:36,756
Speaker 6: All right, yeah, see, same type of thing.

431
00:26:37,036 --> 00:26:41,276
Speaker 1: You know, he was faster with the assault rifle, but

432
00:26:41,316 --> 00:26:44,556
Speaker 1: only by a tick. Someone with a civilian semi automatic

433
00:26:44,556 --> 00:26:48,196
Speaker 1: assault rifle can't really fire any faster than someone with

434
00:26:48,236 --> 00:26:52,036
Speaker 1: a handgun, which makes sense. They work with the same principle,

435
00:26:52,756 --> 00:26:57,116
Speaker 1: one bullet per pull the trigger. But how would that

436
00:26:57,156 --> 00:27:01,396
Speaker 1: compare it to a military rifle in full machine gun mode? Remember,

437
00:27:01,516 --> 00:27:04,316
Speaker 1: Shugelmann's group said that when it comes to killing power,

438
00:27:04,756 --> 00:27:08,796
Speaker 1: the semi auto automatic divide was a distinction without a difference.

439
00:27:09,876 --> 00:27:13,276
Speaker 1: Wallace said that if you were holding a military assault rifle,

440
00:27:13,476 --> 00:27:16,756
Speaker 1: he could have fired close to one hundred bullets in

441
00:27:16,796 --> 00:27:20,316
Speaker 1: that same six and a half second window. And so

442
00:27:20,396 --> 00:27:24,796
Speaker 1: you're saying that a machine gun automatic weapon in that

443
00:27:24,836 --> 00:27:27,956
Speaker 1: same period of time could have could have fired an

444
00:27:28,036 --> 00:27:29,516
Speaker 1: additional seventy rounds.

445
00:27:30,276 --> 00:27:34,196
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, Well, the rate of fire for a fully

446
00:27:34,236 --> 00:27:38,276
Speaker 8: automatic weapon is about thirty rounds in two seconds.

447
00:27:39,396 --> 00:27:40,316
Speaker 1: That's a big difference.

448
00:27:40,356 --> 00:27:41,156
Speaker 6: It is a big difference.

449
00:27:42,276 --> 00:27:45,076
Speaker 1: Why are gun control advocates trying to pretend that these

450
00:27:45,116 --> 00:27:48,556
Speaker 1: two weapons are the same. How is being able to

451
00:27:48,596 --> 00:27:53,996
Speaker 1: fire seventy extra rounds in six seconds, a distinction without

452
00:27:53,996 --> 00:27:54,476
Speaker 1: a difference.

453
00:27:55,916 --> 00:27:56,276
Speaker 6: Yeah.

454
00:27:56,516 --> 00:28:02,436
Speaker 1: Yeah, Then you have a series of of points that

455
00:28:02,476 --> 00:28:06,796
Speaker 1: are all about spray firing. Talk about spray firing. What

456
00:28:06,836 --> 00:28:09,876
Speaker 1: do you mean by spray firing? Back to bullet hoses

457
00:28:10,556 --> 00:28:12,036
Speaker 1: and to Josh Sugarman.

458
00:28:11,916 --> 00:28:15,516
Speaker 10: Spray firing means laying down an indiscriminate field of fire

459
00:28:15,996 --> 00:28:19,676
Speaker 10: using the capacity and firepower of the weapon. Instead of

460
00:28:19,716 --> 00:28:23,396
Speaker 10: targeting an individual, you can target an area for your

461
00:28:23,436 --> 00:28:24,676
Speaker 10: offensive use of the weapon.

462
00:28:25,716 --> 00:28:29,996
Speaker 1: Okay, is spray firing associated with semi automatic or automatic weapons?

463
00:28:31,076 --> 00:28:33,596
Speaker 10: Spray firing, which is a I would not say it's

464
00:28:33,636 --> 00:28:36,396
Speaker 10: a technical term, but the term is used to deal

465
00:28:36,476 --> 00:28:38,956
Speaker 10: with a refer to full auto weapons.

466
00:28:39,276 --> 00:28:41,516
Speaker 1: So why is it relevant here in a discussion.

467
00:28:42,516 --> 00:28:44,836
Speaker 10: You're a spray in area within with rounds.

468
00:28:45,036 --> 00:28:47,076
Speaker 1: But wait, I thought this was a discussion of the

469
00:28:47,276 --> 00:28:50,196
Speaker 1: assault weapons that are available for civilian purchase, which are

470
00:28:50,236 --> 00:28:53,156
Speaker 1: semi automatic. So why do you have three points about

471
00:28:53,156 --> 00:28:57,436
Speaker 1: spray firing when it's not relevant to civilian assault weapons.

472
00:28:57,876 --> 00:28:59,156
Speaker 10: I think you're kind of just reading it. To be

473
00:28:59,156 --> 00:29:01,596
Speaker 10: honest with you, there are three points that we have

474
00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:03,036
Speaker 10: that defines.

475
00:29:02,876 --> 00:29:05,916
Speaker 1: I'm going to quote you hold on civilian assault weapons

476
00:29:05,996 --> 00:29:08,836
Speaker 1: keep the specific functional design features that make this deadly

477
00:29:09,356 --> 00:29:13,596
Speaker 1: firing easy. Doesn't that say that civilian assault replans are

478
00:29:13,636 --> 00:29:16,276
Speaker 1: capable of spray firing? But you just said they're not.

479
00:29:16,516 --> 00:29:17,436
Speaker 1: But you just said they're not.

480
00:29:18,636 --> 00:29:22,556
Speaker 10: Well, I guess you've you've caught me in a you know,

481
00:29:22,756 --> 00:29:24,876
Speaker 10: lack of technical Uh.

482
00:29:25,156 --> 00:29:27,836
Speaker 1: I mean, wait, Josh, you're the one you're trying to

483
00:29:27,996 --> 00:29:32,116
Speaker 1: educate the public about assault weapons, and you've just told

484
00:29:32,116 --> 00:29:35,276
Speaker 1: me that I've caught you in on what is a

485
00:29:35,316 --> 00:29:36,636
Speaker 1: really crucial point.

486
00:29:37,756 --> 00:29:39,196
Speaker 10: I was actually being sarcastic.

487
00:29:40,116 --> 00:29:46,356
Speaker 1: Oh, I missed that. I'm sorry I missed the sarcasm.

488
00:29:46,396 --> 00:29:49,716
Speaker 1: I apologize. But at this point things were getting a

489
00:29:49,756 --> 00:29:52,956
Speaker 1: little testy because Sugarman refused to own up to the

490
00:29:52,996 --> 00:29:56,796
Speaker 1: game he's playing. The public thinks that a civilian assault

491
00:29:56,836 --> 00:29:59,156
Speaker 1: weapon is a machine gun, So let's make a big

492
00:29:59,156 --> 00:30:01,676
Speaker 1: deal about all the nasty things that a machine gun

493
00:30:01,716 --> 00:30:04,756
Speaker 1: can do and just not mention that a civilian assault

494
00:30:04,756 --> 00:30:07,796
Speaker 1: weapon is actually not a machine gun and that none

495
00:30:07,836 --> 00:30:09,876
Speaker 1: of the modifications on the table we can turn it

496
00:30:09,876 --> 00:30:14,516
Speaker 1: into a machine gun. But how do you spray fire

497
00:30:15,236 --> 00:30:17,756
Speaker 1: with a semi automatic weapon? Don't you still have to

498
00:30:17,756 --> 00:30:20,836
Speaker 1: pull the trigger for every bullet that comes out of

499
00:30:20,836 --> 00:30:23,916
Speaker 1: the weapon, Yes, you do. So. Spray firing is where

500
00:30:23,956 --> 00:30:27,476
Speaker 1: you hold the gun on your hip with the finger

501
00:30:27,516 --> 00:30:31,996
Speaker 1: depressed on the trigger in automatic mode and essentially, as

502
00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:34,436
Speaker 1: you say, you know whatever, hose down the area. But

503
00:30:34,476 --> 00:30:36,236
Speaker 1: you can't do that with a civilian weapon.

504
00:30:37,276 --> 00:30:37,996
Speaker 5: Yes you can.

505
00:30:38,236 --> 00:30:41,836
Speaker 10: You can press the trigger as quickly as you can

506
00:30:42,276 --> 00:30:43,036
Speaker 10: with your finger.

507
00:30:43,996 --> 00:30:46,836
Speaker 1: So, but you could do that with any semi automatic weapon.

508
00:30:48,436 --> 00:30:49,316
Speaker 5: That is true.

509
00:30:49,796 --> 00:30:52,956
Speaker 1: So you're talking about something that's true of all semi

510
00:30:52,996 --> 00:30:54,036
Speaker 1: automatic weapons.

511
00:30:54,396 --> 00:30:57,796
Speaker 10: Now, what I'm talking about is that there are specific

512
00:30:57,836 --> 00:31:02,356
Speaker 10: design characteristics that are common to military assault weapons that

513
00:31:02,436 --> 00:31:06,396
Speaker 10: are contained or present in semi automatic versions of them

514
00:31:06,396 --> 00:31:08,276
Speaker 10: that are marketed to the civilian population.

515
00:31:09,276 --> 00:31:12,796
Speaker 1: At this point, Sugarman shifted gears. What he was really

516
00:31:12,836 --> 00:31:15,716
Speaker 1: worried about with civilian assault rifles, he said, was the

517
00:31:15,756 --> 00:31:18,956
Speaker 1: pistol grip. He said, it was the pistol grip that

518
00:31:19,036 --> 00:31:21,436
Speaker 1: made it so easy to fire a civilian assault rifle

519
00:31:21,476 --> 00:31:24,756
Speaker 1: so rapidly with the gun resting on your hip. But

520
00:31:24,836 --> 00:31:27,276
Speaker 1: after watching Greg Wallace at the gun range, all I

521
00:31:27,276 --> 00:31:29,756
Speaker 1: could think of was, why are we so worried that

522
00:31:29,836 --> 00:31:33,556
Speaker 1: someone might hold an assault rifle from their hip? The

523
00:31:33,596 --> 00:31:36,636
Speaker 1: big advantage of holding a rifle. The traditional way is

524
00:31:36,676 --> 00:31:39,036
Speaker 1: that you have three points of contact with the weapon,

525
00:31:39,476 --> 00:31:43,396
Speaker 1: two hands on the weapon itself, and your shoulder acting

526
00:31:43,396 --> 00:31:46,476
Speaker 1: as a brace. Put your gun on your hip and

527
00:31:46,516 --> 00:31:49,316
Speaker 1: you're down to two points of contact. You can't aim

528
00:31:49,356 --> 00:31:52,076
Speaker 1: that well. Your arm's going to get really tired because

529
00:31:52,116 --> 00:31:54,356
Speaker 1: the gun is a big, heavy piece of metal, and

530
00:31:54,396 --> 00:31:56,676
Speaker 1: your wrist is kind of awkwardly tucked in under the

531
00:31:56,716 --> 00:31:59,756
Speaker 1: gun because it's not designed to be used that way.

532
00:31:59,876 --> 00:32:03,276
Speaker 1: It's not easier to shoot an assault rifle from the hip.

533
00:32:03,756 --> 00:32:07,156
Speaker 1: It's harder. I know people fire guns that way all

534
00:32:07,196 --> 00:32:11,956
Speaker 1: the time in the movies, but that's the movies. If

535
00:32:11,996 --> 00:32:15,196
Speaker 1: I was an American citizen who was interested in doing

536
00:32:15,236 --> 00:32:18,116
Speaker 1: something about gun violence, I would find it very difficult

537
00:32:18,196 --> 00:32:20,236
Speaker 1: to follow your line of reasoning.

538
00:32:20,276 --> 00:32:20,476
Speaker 2: Here.

539
00:32:21,516 --> 00:32:25,756
Speaker 1: You both say that these guns are functionally equivalent, and

540
00:32:25,756 --> 00:32:28,196
Speaker 1: then you say, well, they're not functionally equivalent because one's

541
00:32:28,196 --> 00:32:30,076
Speaker 1: automatic and one semi automatic. And then you say, well,

542
00:32:30,116 --> 00:32:33,036
Speaker 1: actually the semi automatic one is worse. And then you say,

543
00:32:33,316 --> 00:32:35,716
Speaker 1: and they facilitate spray firing, But then you say, spray

544
00:32:35,716 --> 00:32:38,196
Speaker 1: firing is really associated with the automatic version, which is

545
00:32:38,236 --> 00:32:40,676
Speaker 1: not the one we're talking about my head is spinning.

546
00:32:42,756 --> 00:32:43,916
Speaker 1: Why don't you just say what you mean?

547
00:32:45,436 --> 00:32:47,436
Speaker 10: Well, I think part of is I know a lot

548
00:32:47,436 --> 00:32:49,916
Speaker 10: more about guns than you do, I think, And I

549
00:32:50,036 --> 00:32:52,956
Speaker 10: think you're kind of creating a word salad from some

550
00:32:53,036 --> 00:32:54,916
Speaker 10: sort of I don't know why.

551
00:32:57,236 --> 00:32:59,996
Speaker 1: In the previous episode of this series, I talked about

552
00:32:59,996 --> 00:33:02,876
Speaker 1: the absurdity of the stories that gun lovers tell themselves

553
00:33:03,236 --> 00:33:05,356
Speaker 1: that all of us, for our own good, need to

554
00:33:05,396 --> 00:33:08,036
Speaker 1: be armed before we descend into the New York City subway,

555
00:33:08,556 --> 00:33:12,036
Speaker 1: or that an obscure English slave trader named John Knight

556
00:33:12,316 --> 00:33:15,836
Speaker 1: is all the stands between us and tyranny. This is

557
00:33:15,876 --> 00:33:18,956
Speaker 1: the same kind of absurdity, only from the other side.

558
00:33:19,316 --> 00:33:22,156
Speaker 1: This is someone just making stuff up in order to

559
00:33:22,236 --> 00:33:25,076
Speaker 1: rile us all up and try and win a policy argument.

560
00:33:25,756 --> 00:33:29,076
Speaker 1: Now I understand why Sugarman is doing it. He wants

561
00:33:29,116 --> 00:33:31,196
Speaker 1: to find a crack in the armor of the gun

562
00:33:31,236 --> 00:33:34,316
Speaker 1: lobby and he thinks assault rifles are his way in.

563
00:33:34,556 --> 00:33:37,556
Speaker 1: And by the way, I'm completely sympathetic to the overall,

564
00:33:37,596 --> 00:33:41,036
Speaker 1: cause I'm a Canadian. For goodness sake, I don't believe

565
00:33:41,076 --> 00:33:44,916
Speaker 1: anyone should have guns at all. But this is the

566
00:33:44,996 --> 00:33:47,996
Speaker 1: problem with the way we talk about guns, right that

567
00:33:48,076 --> 00:33:50,876
Speaker 1: in the middle of an ongoing national tragedy, we can't

568
00:33:50,916 --> 00:33:54,836
Speaker 1: bring ourselves to have an honest conversation about guns. Both

569
00:33:54,876 --> 00:33:57,996
Speaker 1: sides would rather just make things up. And if you

570
00:33:58,036 --> 00:34:01,436
Speaker 1: can't have an honest conversation, how do you get anywhere.

571
00:34:20,156 --> 00:34:23,676
Speaker 1: A few years ago, a group of ten trauma surgeons, erdos,

572
00:34:23,796 --> 00:34:27,196
Speaker 1: and pathologists sat down and read through two hundred and

573
00:34:27,236 --> 00:34:31,836
Speaker 1: thirty two autopsy reports from twenty three different American mass shootings.

574
00:34:32,476 --> 00:34:35,596
Speaker 1: They sorted every victim according to the gun they were

575
00:34:35,596 --> 00:34:40,716
Speaker 1: shot with, handgun, shotgun, rifle. The group wanted to know

576
00:34:41,036 --> 00:34:43,396
Speaker 1: did the kind of weapon used by a mass shooter

577
00:34:43,756 --> 00:34:46,436
Speaker 1: make a difference in the likelihood of one of their

578
00:34:46,476 --> 00:34:50,596
Speaker 1: gunshot victims dying. It wasn't a question anyone had ever

579
00:34:50,636 --> 00:34:54,996
Speaker 1: asked before, maybe because the answer seemed obvious. Rifles fired

580
00:34:54,996 --> 00:34:58,396
Speaker 1: bigger bullets at greater velocity than handguns. They are going

581
00:34:58,476 --> 00:35:01,156
Speaker 1: to be the biggest killers. The leader of the study

582
00:35:01,436 --> 00:35:03,916
Speaker 1: was the chief of the Trauma Center at George Washington

583
00:35:03,996 --> 00:35:07,676
Speaker 1: University Hospital in Washington, d C. Baback SERRANI.

584
00:35:09,116 --> 00:35:10,356
Speaker 11: I thought when we were going to do the study,

585
00:35:10,396 --> 00:35:12,516
Speaker 11: I was like, this is a slam dunk. Clearly the

586
00:35:12,596 --> 00:35:14,516
Speaker 11: rifle was the most lethal of them all, and that

587
00:35:14,636 --> 00:35:15,796
Speaker 11: did not bear out.

588
00:35:16,356 --> 00:35:20,716
Speaker 1: The assault rifle is not the most lethal weapon in

589
00:35:20,756 --> 00:35:24,836
Speaker 1: mass shootings. Seroni's group found out more people were shot

590
00:35:25,116 --> 00:35:29,196
Speaker 1: by rifles and handguns, but those differences did not translate

591
00:35:29,436 --> 00:35:32,956
Speaker 1: into a higher percentage of people killed. The people most

592
00:35:32,996 --> 00:35:35,876
Speaker 1: likely to die were the ones hit by handguns.

593
00:35:36,796 --> 00:35:40,156
Speaker 11: The handgun was the most lethal weapon because the person

594
00:35:40,276 --> 00:35:42,836
Speaker 11: was far more likely to be shot multiple times if

595
00:35:42,836 --> 00:35:46,116
Speaker 11: the assailant had a handgun as compared to a rifle.

596
00:35:46,796 --> 00:35:49,676
Speaker 11: In addition, the victim was far more likely to be

597
00:35:49,756 --> 00:35:53,836
Speaker 11: shot in the torso or the head if the person

598
00:35:53,876 --> 00:35:56,556
Speaker 11: had a handgun then a rifle. And the reason is

599
00:35:56,876 --> 00:35:59,476
Speaker 11: I can get closer to you so without you knowing it.

600
00:35:59,556 --> 00:36:01,956
Speaker 11: By the time I'm on top of you with a handgun,

601
00:36:02,236 --> 00:36:05,996
Speaker 11: high capacity magazine and multiple clips, I can expend a

602
00:36:06,076 --> 00:36:09,476
Speaker 11: significant number of rounds. And because I'm close to you,

603
00:36:09,876 --> 00:36:12,596
Speaker 11: my accuracy is going up, so I can hit you

604
00:36:12,676 --> 00:36:15,756
Speaker 11: multiple times in the chest, belly, possibly the head, and

605
00:36:15,756 --> 00:36:19,636
Speaker 11: that you're going to die, Whereas with a rifle in general,

606
00:36:19,676 --> 00:36:21,716
Speaker 11: you'll see me coming, you may be able to run away.

607
00:36:21,796 --> 00:36:24,836
Speaker 11: That's one number two. When I hit you with a rifle,

608
00:36:25,156 --> 00:36:28,116
Speaker 11: the velocity is so high there's a good likelihood you're

609
00:36:28,116 --> 00:36:30,076
Speaker 11: going to hit the ground, you're going to fall, and

610
00:36:30,116 --> 00:36:32,596
Speaker 11: that means my accuracy just dropped for the second hit.

611
00:36:33,276 --> 00:36:36,956
Speaker 11: And so people were less likely to be injured multiple

612
00:36:36,996 --> 00:36:40,156
Speaker 11: times with a rifle than they were with a handgun.

613
00:36:41,076 --> 00:36:44,676
Speaker 1: President Biden goes to the site of two tragic mass shootings,

614
00:36:44,836 --> 00:36:48,516
Speaker 1: and he is told, for God's sake, do something. But

615
00:36:48,596 --> 00:36:50,916
Speaker 1: what he proposes to do is the same thing that

616
00:36:50,996 --> 00:36:54,876
Speaker 1: presidents before him proposed to do, A law that will

617
00:36:54,876 --> 00:36:58,076
Speaker 1: make no difference at all. What's the point of that

618
00:36:59,036 --> 00:37:02,476
Speaker 1: Americans are killing each other and themselves by the thousands,

619
00:37:02,876 --> 00:37:05,476
Speaker 1: and the people who claim to be most outraged by

620
00:37:05,476 --> 00:37:08,556
Speaker 1: this fact spend their time debating whether a rifle stock

621
00:37:08,556 --> 00:37:12,236
Speaker 1: should or shit not be adjustable, all the while pretending

622
00:37:12,556 --> 00:37:15,516
Speaker 1: that they are fighting in the good fight. They aren't.

623
00:37:15,836 --> 00:37:16,836
Speaker 1: They're wasting our time.

624
00:37:17,716 --> 00:37:20,996
Speaker 11: If I can get close enough to you, there's absolutely

625
00:37:21,076 --> 00:37:25,636
Speaker 11: no doubt, none, that a rifle is far more lethal

626
00:37:25,676 --> 00:37:29,396
Speaker 11: a weapon than a handgun. Just the practicality is getting

627
00:37:29,396 --> 00:37:31,996
Speaker 11: close enough to you to shoot you multiple times kind

628
00:37:31,996 --> 00:37:34,756
Speaker 11: of intervene. And so one of the points we raised

629
00:37:34,756 --> 00:37:36,996
Speaker 11: in the paper was we don't think there should be

630
00:37:36,996 --> 00:37:39,876
Speaker 11: separate laws for rifles, then there should be for handguns.

631
00:37:40,036 --> 00:37:41,716
Speaker 11: We think there should be just common laws that apply

632
00:37:41,836 --> 00:37:42,996
Speaker 11: to both types of weapons.

633
00:37:44,476 --> 00:37:48,636
Speaker 1: There shouldn't be separate laws for rifles then for handguns.

634
00:37:49,476 --> 00:37:52,156
Speaker 1: If we want to have an honest conversation about guns,

635
00:37:52,556 --> 00:37:54,956
Speaker 1: that sentence is a good place to start.

636
00:37:55,756 --> 00:37:57,516
Speaker 11: At the end of the day, a gun is designed,

637
00:37:57,516 --> 00:38:00,516
Speaker 11: and a bullet is designed to kill something, whether it's

638
00:38:00,516 --> 00:38:04,356
Speaker 11: an animal for sports, whether it's a person for homicide, whatever,

639
00:38:05,036 --> 00:38:08,556
Speaker 11: the weapon's intention is to kill somebody, and they do.

640
00:38:08,556 --> 00:38:09,356
Speaker 11: Whether designed to.

641
00:38:09,276 --> 00:38:14,876
Speaker 1: Do a gun is a gun is a gun. The

642
00:38:14,956 --> 00:38:41,956
Speaker 1: rest is just foolishness. Our revisionist history Gun series was

643
00:38:41,996 --> 00:38:47,276
Speaker 1: produced by Jacob Smith, Benda daf Haffrey, Kiara Powell, Tally Emlin,

644
00:38:47,516 --> 00:38:53,316
Speaker 1: and Leeman Gistoo. We were edited by Peter Clowney and

645
00:38:53,396 --> 00:38:57,596
Speaker 1: Julia Barton. Fact checking by Arthur Gomberts and Kashelle Williams.

646
00:38:58,076 --> 00:39:03,636
Speaker 1: Original scoring by the Waiscarra, mastering by Flaon Williams, Engineering

647
00:39:03,716 --> 00:39:10,676
Speaker 1: by Nina Lawrence. Special thanks to Wilson Sayer. I'm nothing

648
00:39:10,796 --> 00:39:11,156
Speaker 1: that well