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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of

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Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 1: we're back with part four of our series about mirrors.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think we would get this far, but this

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Speaker 1: is one of those where there's there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: different alleys to run down as we make our way

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Speaker 1: along the historical track. But today I guess we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking about glass mirrors more than we did in

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Speaker 1: some of the previous episodes. But to do a brief

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Speaker 1: recap of some of the the technological milestones along the

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Speaker 1: history of mirrors. We we have, of course, obsidian mirrors

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Speaker 1: that have been made since prehistory. Examples found of these

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Speaker 1: go as far back as like six thousand BC and

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Speaker 1: Anatolia associated with the prehistoric Proto city of Chattahyak, and

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Speaker 1: then beginning around the fourth and third millennium b CE,

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Speaker 1: find evidence of atal mirrors mostly based on copper and

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Speaker 1: copper alloys like bronze in Egypt and Mesopotamia, and of

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Speaker 1: course later mirrors will be made out of other metals

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Speaker 1: like silver. Silver's a common choice in the Roman Empire

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Speaker 1: um and by the second millennium b C. It seems

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Speaker 1: like metal mirrors proliferate and are found in many settled

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Speaker 1: societies all around the world. Now, before we get in

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Speaker 1: more into a discussion of the glass mirror, I want

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Speaker 1: to discuss some things that I read in in the

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Speaker 1: book Mirror Mirror by Mark Pendergrass, which is a wonderful

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Speaker 1: text on the history of the mirror, very readable, uh.

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Speaker 1: In it, he discusses Chinese mirrors at length, and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to share a few things that we didn't discuss

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Speaker 1: previously for starters. According to Pendagraph, some of the earliest

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Speaker 1: Chinese mirrors, in addition to being made out of some

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Speaker 1: of these other materials we already mentioned, were also made

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Speaker 1: out of polished jade, which is very fascinating to h

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Speaker 1: to imagine. I wasn't able to find an image of

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Speaker 1: what this would have looked like, but I guess if

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Speaker 1: if anyone was capable of of polishing jade to the

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Speaker 1: level that it could be used as a reflective surface,

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Speaker 1: it would be the ancient Chinese, who were, you know,

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Speaker 1: very advanced with the use of jade. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but I imagine that would have um some some similarities

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Speaker 1: with with obsidian as a mirror, because it would provide

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Speaker 1: a sort of reflection of outlines, but it would probably

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Speaker 1: offer a kind of inverted or distorted color scheme behind things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah now in uh also, Pendergrass mentions that mirrors were

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Speaker 1: often entuned with the dead, and in one Chinese tumb

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Speaker 1: I think from the third century BC, the corpse's head

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Speaker 1: was quote equipped with a wooden box covered with metal

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Speaker 1: mirrors on the inside fascinating. You'll also find heart protecting

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Speaker 1: mirrors that were sometimes placed on a dead person's chest

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Speaker 1: and uh. And then he goes on to mention a

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Speaker 1: couple of other mirrors, one that's definitely magical and a

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Speaker 1: and a item of mythology, and the other one, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, one can ask questions about. He describes something

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Speaker 1: called the the chow kou paw, which is the quote

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Speaker 1: precious mirror that would illuminate the bones of the body,

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Speaker 1: which was said to allow people to see not only

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Speaker 1: the reflection, but to see their interior organs and to

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Speaker 1: cleanse their innerds uh through some means that they he

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Speaker 1: didn't have the details on. And one of these was

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Speaker 1: said to be kept in a in a grotto in

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Speaker 1: a cliff face, and it was said to be tin

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Speaker 1: square feet in size, so, you know, pretty enormous for

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Speaker 1: a mirror and could reflect the five viscera of a

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Speaker 1: human being. That's so interesting, and it parallels some other

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Speaker 1: things we've talked about, you know, uh, a mystical traditions

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Speaker 1: about mirrors that they could somehow reflect the true self

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Speaker 1: or reflect something about an image that could not be

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Speaker 1: seen under normal conditions. And I wonder, like, why is

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Speaker 1: this a common thing to believe about mirrors, because it's

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Speaker 1: literally not true about them. You know that they're like

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Speaker 1: that they literally just pretty objectively reflect light and say,

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Speaker 1: same way that you would see it with your eyes

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Speaker 1: when looking at something, except of course reversed if they're

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Speaker 1: flat or you know, with some kind of distortions if

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Speaker 1: their convex or concave. Yeah. Uh. And now another mirror

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Speaker 1: that he mentions was the the toe Quang chain, which

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Speaker 1: was said to cast a reflection That quote showed the

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Speaker 1: image on the back, as in the back of the mirror,

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Speaker 1: as if the light had penetrated the metal, and he

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Speaker 1: writes that this might have been due to a polishing

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Speaker 1: technique that quote caused imperceptible irregularities on the mirror surface

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Speaker 1: that corresponded to the raised pictures on the back. So again,

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Speaker 1: this would have been a metal mirror, but there would

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Speaker 1: be a back to it. In the same way that

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Speaker 1: we discussed the Chinese mirrors previously. We have some sort

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Speaker 1: of illustration a deity, uh uh, some sort of representation

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Speaker 1: of an animal or a mythological creature. And so the

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Speaker 1: idea here is that there would be some sort of

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Speaker 1: imperfections in the metal that would that would match up

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Speaker 1: with that illustration on the back of the mirror, and

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Speaker 1: that this would be you know, at least a unique effect.

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Speaker 1: Oh I see. So maybe like the distortions in the

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Speaker 1: reflective surface caused by the decoration on the back could

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Speaker 1: also in some way bring the suggestion of the image

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Speaker 1: on the back into your own reflection when you looked

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Speaker 1: into it. Yeah. Um, that's interesting because it sort of

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Speaker 1: pairs with something I was reading about. So I was

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Speaker 1: reading a Cabinet magazine article from the year two thousand

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Speaker 1: four written by a guy named Josiah mcelhaney, who is

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Speaker 1: a glassblower actually like a glass artist, and I was

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Speaker 1: just writing some about how the the history of mirrors

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Speaker 1: has sort of developed alongside people's changing perceptions of the self.

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Speaker 1: And this is something we've talked about a little bit

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Speaker 1: in previous episodes, and one of the things he mentions

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Speaker 1: is the development of mirrors, especially saying like eighteenth century

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Speaker 1: Europe that had a lot of decorative flourishes on the

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Speaker 1: reflecting side. You know, we we've talked about a lot

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Speaker 1: of mirrors that had decorations or carvings, engravings of deities

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Speaker 1: or wishes of good luck or something on the back side,

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Speaker 1: and then just the plain reflective surface on on the

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Speaker 1: side that would be used. But here this is combining

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Speaker 1: the two. It's putting you know, maybe a floral arrangement

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Speaker 1: or or like etchings of something, you know, like cherubs

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Speaker 1: or something on the part that's reflecting you. So it's

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Speaker 1: sort of like placing your own image within a context,

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Speaker 1: maybe a context of beauty or a context of holiness.

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Speaker 1: So we've already covered the metal mirror quite a bit,

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Speaker 1: but that at this point you're probably wondering what about

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Speaker 1: the glass variant that most of us are used to,

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Speaker 1: And uh, and I think some listeners were Actually I

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Speaker 1: had actually written in about this and said, hey, you

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Speaker 1: guys started these series about the invention of the mirror.

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Speaker 1: When are you gonna get to the invention of the

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Speaker 1: mirror that we we all encounter on a daily basis. Um, Well,

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Speaker 1: the first glass mirrors seemed to have emerged during the

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Speaker 1: third century C. They were quite small, concave or convex

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Speaker 1: metal surfaces glass coatings. Glass mirrors have been uncovered in

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Speaker 1: digs dating back to this century. Yeah. Well, actually, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess if you want to be really pedantic about it,

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Speaker 1: you could say that the very first mirrors were glass mirrors,

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Speaker 1: because obsidian is a natural form of volcanic glass. But

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Speaker 1: clearly what people mean when they say glass mirrors is

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Speaker 1: the kind where you used to today that has a

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Speaker 1: it has a thin pain of clear, very clear, very

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Speaker 1: flat glass, and then behind it a very thin sheet

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Speaker 1: of some kind of highly reflective metal. And that's what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about here. When you might start to see

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Speaker 1: examples of this around the third century CE. Now, when

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Speaker 1: it comes to uh mirrors in this period, especially mirrors

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Speaker 1: in ancient Rome, already mentioned the idea of silver mirrors,

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Speaker 1: but I've read several sources saying that silver was especially

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Speaker 1: common as a material for looking glasses in ancient Rome.

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Speaker 1: Even Plenty of the Elder actually writes about mirrors in

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Speaker 1: his Natural History, which was written in the first century CE,

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Speaker 1: and in a section about ten which he actually calls

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Speaker 1: stand um, which is how it gets its chemical symbol

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Speaker 1: s n uh, he writes that the finest mirrors used

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Speaker 1: to be prepared at a place called Brundisium, which I

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Speaker 1: think corresponds to a city of is today called like

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Speaker 1: Brindisi or something. It's in southern Italy. Um. But he

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Speaker 1: says that was the case until quote, until everybody, our

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Speaker 1: maid servants even began to use silver ones. So by

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Speaker 1: the time of Plenty, he says, silver mirrors are so

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Speaker 1: common that even the poor have them, even the serving

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Speaker 1: staff have their own silver mirrors. Yeah. And I think

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Speaker 1: I've read some other um accounts of of Roman writings

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Speaker 1: that they would even comment about just sort of the

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Speaker 1: mirror craze, just like how how, oh my goodness, everybody

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Speaker 1: has these, They're everywhere, uh and uh, and you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of using it as a way to discuss the

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Speaker 1: vanity of the age. Yeah. Now, I think that there

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Speaker 1: is some evidence, like you're saying that during the Roman

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Speaker 1: Empire there were some mirrors that involved a layer of glass.

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Speaker 1: But but I think most mirrors of this time would

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Speaker 1: not have had glass. They would have been just like

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Speaker 1: a highly polished silver surface or bronze surface. But we

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Speaker 1: do see the glass mirror began to show up. And

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Speaker 1: according to Plenty of the Elder, who's actually one of

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Speaker 1: the we we often referred to Plenty here, but he's

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Speaker 1: one of the major sources of the day that that

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Speaker 1: is often referred back to, and trying to pinpoint where

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Speaker 1: mirrors are coming from. The glass mirrors are coming from

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Speaker 1: around this time. But according to Plenty, they were the

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Speaker 1: product of the Lebanese city of Sidon, and the Romans

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Speaker 1: copied these techniques for their own mirrors, which became again

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Speaker 1: quite the craze. And there's another author, I believe it's

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Speaker 1: Alexander of afro Dseus who also wrote about them. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: those are those are two of the sources you see mentioned.

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Speaker 1: I think these are the two that Pendergrass mentions. So

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Speaker 1: do we know anything about the techniques of production in

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Speaker 1: this period? Okay? So according to Mark pendergrast In in

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Speaker 1: that book, Syrian craftspeople near Sidon developed glass blowing techniques

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Speaker 1: around a hundred BC that allow them to dip a

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Speaker 1: long hollow metal tube into molten glass, retrieve a glob,

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Speaker 1: and then use that glob and that tube to blow

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Speaker 1: glass shapes. And such was their skill that eventually they

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Speaker 1: were they were able to do a kind of mass production. Um.

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Speaker 1: And it makes sense of course that these masters of

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Speaker 1: glass would then develop eventually develop a key mirror making

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Speaker 1: techniques as well. And of course it makes sense that

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Speaker 1: the Roman Empire would then take and then spread this technology.

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Speaker 1: So the result of all this would have been small

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Speaker 1: pocket mirrors produced by blowing a thin glass sphere and

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Speaker 1: then pouring hot lead into it, down into the sphere,

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Speaker 1: coating the inside of it. Okay, and then when this

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Speaker 1: is broken and cut, you had mirror glass. So if

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Speaker 1: you can, you can imagine that like forming this this glob,

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Speaker 1: coating the inside of the glob with the lead, and

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Speaker 1: then breaking that into two walla, you have the makings

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Speaker 1: of a mirror. Nice And it sounds like the Roman

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Speaker 1: copies of this technique might have been on the whole

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Speaker 1: less perfect, with more flaws in the glass, but they

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Speaker 1: were still quite a sensation. Uh. And I'm assuming you know,

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Speaker 1: quite an improvement in terms of availability over the mental mirror,

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Speaker 1: and it just spread throughout the Roman world. Now, I

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Speaker 1: imagine these probably based on the technique you're describing, would

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Speaker 1: not have been super flat, that you would probably be

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Speaker 1: ending up with somewhat convex or concave mirrors. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: would at least be you know, convex to to some degree,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um. Now, one of the interesting things is

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Speaker 1: that even though this was widespread, even though the Romans

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Speaker 1: copied it and you were seemingly producing them in more

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Speaker 1: than one location, with the fall of the Roman Empire,

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Speaker 1: the art of convex mirror making was nearly lost. It

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Speaker 1: was kept barely alive apparently in the Near East UM.

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Speaker 1: But until the twelfth century revival of mirror technology in Europe,

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Speaker 1: it would largely be a return to silver and bronze

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Speaker 1: mirror that were beyond the budgets of most Europeans. UM. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you had the secret of the glass mirror survived in

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Speaker 1: the East and continue to be said, you know, a

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Speaker 1: matter of study in UM in the Islamic world, where

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of study of mirrors and optics. However,

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Speaker 1: eventually you start having these uh, these these megaprojects coming

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Speaker 1: together in Europe, the Gothic cathedral, and of course you

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Speaker 1: need glass, you need glass artisans, and so during this

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Speaker 1: time the production of mirrors too began to flourish again,

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Speaker 1: and by the fifteenth century you had glassmakers in Germany,

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Speaker 1: France and Italy that at all improved quite a bit.

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Speaker 1: Apparently the glassmakers of Florence were pretty well known, but

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Speaker 1: the Venetians really took the cake, particularly on the Aisle

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Speaker 1: of Morano. So from the eleventh century onward, uh, the

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Speaker 1: Venetians held a virtual monopoly on European trade with the East,

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Speaker 1: and so the importers here they learned glassmaking. Perhaps I

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Speaker 1: think there are a couple of different theories. As Pentagraps

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Speaker 1: describes it. You know, they might have learned some key

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Speaker 1: stuff from the Germans. They also might have learned key

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Speaker 1: things from uh the Islamic world, from Islamic exporters. Again,

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Speaker 1: where of those, some of the secrets of mirror making

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Speaker 1: and optics uh we were kept alive. And so either way,

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Speaker 1: maybe from both influences they begin making their own excellent

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Speaker 1: glasses and mirrors, and the Venetian glassmakers formed their own

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Speaker 1: guild in the early twelve hundreds. But of course one

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Speaker 1: of the things about making glass, blowing glass and making

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Speaker 1: mirrors as you need furnaces, and of course that's dangerous

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Speaker 1: to a city like Venice. So they were made. They

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Speaker 1: were they were forced to move their production out to

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Speaker 1: an island, the island of Murano, and this became the

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Speaker 1: Island of Mirrors. And this is where the art of

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Speaker 1: mirror making was closely and violently guarded, so you could

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Speaker 1: be sentenced to death for sharing the secrets of glass making. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And families of glassmakers apparently who left uh the island

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Speaker 1: in the region would sometimes have their families held hostage

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Speaker 1: to and sure they returned and they didn't share these

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Speaker 1: these vital secrets elsewhere. It's like it's like the KFC

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Speaker 1: Herbs and spices recipe. It's like, yeah, I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: a big these were because not only did they have

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Speaker 1: the secrets of making mirrors again and and and doing

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Speaker 1: all this fine glass work, UH, glassmaking also evolved further here.

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Speaker 1: It developed further, so clearer glass work was suddenly possible,

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Speaker 1: even clearer mirrors, and they were just a huge craze,

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Speaker 1: especially in the high society of Europe. So they had

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Speaker 1: a vital economic commodity here, so they tightly guarded it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they had a beautifully clear glass that was known as

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Speaker 1: christal O. Yes. So, developing out of these trends after

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Speaker 1: the Renaissance, glass mirrors with metal backing became more and

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Speaker 1: more common, and these had a couple of necessary technical

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Speaker 1: features in order to be a very high quality. So

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Speaker 1: you would need to be able to produce a pain

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Speaker 1: of extremely clear, extremely flat glass and then a flat

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Speaker 1: backing of highly reflective metal on one side of it.

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Speaker 1: So when you look at a mirror today, typically what

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Speaker 1: you're looking at is there's a pane of glass and

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Speaker 1: it has been coated on the back side with highly

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Speaker 1: reflective metal. And then so you're looking into the glass

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Speaker 1: and your reflection is bouncing off of that reflective metal

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Speaker 1: and then back through this very clear, very flat glass

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Speaker 1: undistorted towards you. And this could create very nice mirrors.

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Speaker 1: But there were a few wrinkles here. One thing is

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Speaker 1: that up until the nineteenth century, the dominant method for

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Speaker 1: producing glass mirrors was creating a problem. Uh So, let's

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Speaker 1: say it's the early eighteen hundreds and you are a

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Speaker 1: you are a factory a mirror factory owner. You own

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Speaker 1: a shop floor that makes mirrors, and you look out

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Speaker 1: at your workers and you think something is wrong with

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Speaker 1: these people. My workers, they keep getting ear ridable and depressed,

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Speaker 1: and they don't have any energy, and they can't pay

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Speaker 1: attention to things I'm telling them, and they get tremors

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Speaker 1: and delirium in the middle of a shift. Why can't

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Speaker 1: I get better workers? Well, like many other stories around

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Speaker 1: this time in history, it turned out it is not

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Speaker 1: the fault of the workers, but of the materials they

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Speaker 1: were being subjected to on the shop floor, because the

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Speaker 1: mirrors of this time were made with metal backing that

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Speaker 1: contained large amounts of mercury. And here we're back to

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Speaker 1: a pretty familiar historical subject for our show, which is

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Speaker 1: overexposure to mercury and the health effects thereof. In this case,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about mercury era is um or mad Hatter's

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Speaker 1: disease colloquially, which is a neurological disorder resulting from overexposure

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Speaker 1: to mercury. I think it's especially common with mercury fumes inhaled. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we've discussed this on the show before, in particular Professions

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Speaker 1: of the Day. Of course, you are more likely to

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Speaker 1: be exposed to these mercury fumes, and so the workers

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Speaker 1: in these in these looking glass shops are are just

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Speaker 1: continually being exposed to the horrors of breathing mercury fumes,

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Speaker 1: and just generally being exposed to mercury all the time

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Speaker 1: until we get the intervention of a pretty cool figure

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Speaker 1: in the history of chemistry named Eustace von Liebig, who

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Speaker 1: was a German scientist who lived from eighteen o three

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Speaker 1: to eighteen seventy three, and von Liebig was responsible for

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Speaker 1: a number of important advancements in organic chemistry and agricultural

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Speaker 1: science that made farming more reliable and famine less common.

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Speaker 1: One of his big contributions is to the modern science

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Speaker 1: of fertilizers, nitrogen fertilizers, and to a better understanding of

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Speaker 1: the relationship between crops success and trace mineral contents in

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Speaker 1: the soil. Like I think one of the things that's

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Speaker 1: often remembered about him is that he established that you know, basically,

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Speaker 1: you're the success of your crops is going to be

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Speaker 1: limited by whatever the soil is poorest in, whatever the

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Speaker 1: most limited essential nutrient that the plants need, whatever is

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Speaker 1: the most limited in the soil is going to be

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Speaker 1: the factory that limits the growth of the plants, and

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Speaker 1: so you could and so you could fix that by say,

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Speaker 1: bringing in animal manure, which contained many minerals and nutrients

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Speaker 1: that plants would need and would help even out the

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Speaker 1: nutrient profile of the soil. Von Liebig was also a

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Speaker 1: pioneer in the perhaps gross, but also important science of

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Speaker 1: meat chemistry. Uh. He was really big on not letting

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Speaker 1: nutrition go to waste. So, for example, the kind of

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Speaker 1: nutrients that would be wasted if you were to boil

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Speaker 1: a hunk of beef and then discard the cooking liquid.

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Speaker 1: You know, in that case, a lot of good nutrition

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Speaker 1: is being extracted by the cooking process and then left

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Speaker 1: in the water. So if only Big developed was you know,

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Speaker 1: use this information to try to develop special cooking methods

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Speaker 1: and in the creation of what was called a meat extract,

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Speaker 1: which could be made into a broth or a meat tea. Huh.

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Speaker 1: This reminds me of our past discussions on both gravy

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Speaker 1: but also ultimately the various sauces that that inspired. Catch

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Speaker 1: up the idea that after you're you're done rendering or

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Speaker 1: cooking that meat or the fish or whatever, it happens

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Speaker 1: to be You're You're often left with these dregs that

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Speaker 1: are that can be super flavorful, um, that can certainly

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Speaker 1: have still have a fair amount of nutritional value. And

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Speaker 1: then what do you do with them? Right? Obviously meat tea? Right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you make meat tea, which I don't know. It's funny,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't find the idea of a of a

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Speaker 1: beef broth gross, but when you phrase it as meat tea,

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Speaker 1: it sounds disgusting. Maybe that's because I'm imagining adding cream

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Speaker 1: and sugar to it. Oh, I mean so much with smell,

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Speaker 1: I think we've discussed in the science of smell or

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Speaker 1: it's about it's about how you're framing it. Um Like

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Speaker 1: at the point the cheese versus smelly shoe example is

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Speaker 1: a is a big one. You know, depending on how

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Speaker 1: people are all or were primed, they'll they'll interpret the

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Speaker 1: smell in a different way. Um. My wife and I

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Speaker 1: had had a similar situation very recently. Were out walking

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Speaker 1: through the neighborhood and it was garbage day and we

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Speaker 1: walked by this one garbage can and we're like, oh

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00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,320
Speaker 1: my goodness, that's absolutely foul. Then we realized it wasn't

360
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,159
Speaker 1: the garbage can. It was somebody grilling seafood just to

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Speaker 1: block up. Of course, it was actually not a foul

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Speaker 1: smell at all. That it was, you know, would rather

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Speaker 1: blur they're pleasing smell. So you know, somebody's grilling some

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Speaker 1: delicious seafood. But if you walk by a garbage can

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Speaker 1: and you smell it, if you associated with the garbage can,

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Speaker 1: then you might be more inclined to to to interpret

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Speaker 1: it as a foul odor. You ever, Um, you're walking

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Speaker 1: around somewhere, say by a bunch of restaurants or buildings

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Speaker 1: or something, and you smell that that that delicious fried

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Speaker 1: food carnival smell. You know, it's the smell of of

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Speaker 1: funnel cake and corn dogs and all that. It's like

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Speaker 1: so so good. And then you realize what you're smelling

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Speaker 1: is the old grease disposal dumpster behind the place. Yep, yeap,

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Speaker 1: I've had that situation as well. Yeah, very for a second,

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00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 1: the rat brain is the one calling the shots. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, so how does it fondly Big connect back

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00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 1: to mirrors. Well, remember the problem is with the mercury

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Speaker 1: exposure that the workers are facing on these factory floors.

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Speaker 1: In eighteen thirty five, Eustace fun lie Big also discovered

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Speaker 1: a process for making metal backed glass mirrors in a

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Speaker 1: way that wouldn't be nearly as hazardous to the health

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Speaker 1: of the workers. So instead of using mercury, fun lie

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Speaker 1: Bigg's method began by applying silver nitrate in a solution

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Speaker 1: of ammonia to the back of the glass and then

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00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,919
Speaker 1: exposing that to fumes of formaldehyde, and this would trigger

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00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,680
Speaker 1: a chemical reaction, reducing the silver nitrate solution to a

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Speaker 1: thin layer of silver stuck to the back of the pain.

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00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,920
Speaker 1: And apparently in eighteen fifty six he came up with

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00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: with another improved method of doing this, and manufacturers eventually

390
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,719
Speaker 1: found that the layer of silver could be protected by

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00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: bring it with layers of paint and varnish, and the

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00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 1: fon lie Big silvering method became the new standard for

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Speaker 1: several reasons. First of all, silver reflected more light than

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00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 1: the older recipes involving things like mercury and tin. It

395
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 1: was less prone to tarnishing, at least within this application,

396
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 1: when it's protected by these these layers of paint and varnish.

397
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 1: And of course, I think we would say ethically, most importantly,

398
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: it didn't poison the workers, or at least not as much.

399
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 1: Um so. So the fon Li Big method, I think

400
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 1: really is the precursor to how most modern glass mirrors

401
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 1: are made today. One thing that's kind of cool. You

402
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: can probably find this if you if you just look

403
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 1: up like a you know, one of those how it's

404
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: made type videos on a mirror factory. But I don't

405
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,440
Speaker 1: think I had quite ever thought about this, But most

406
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: mirrors today, I think are made as huge sheets. So

407
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 1: you will you will start with a large sheet of

408
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 1: glass that is you know, highly polished to the correct specifications,

409
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 1: and then it is coated with some highly reflective metal backing,

410
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,920
Speaker 1: and then coated with some paint to to protect the

411
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 1: metal backing, and then that huge sheet of mirror material

412
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 1: is cut into the shapes that you will need for

413
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 1: I don't know whatever the individual mirror framers or manufacturers

414
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 1: or turning it into after that, But you kind of

415
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 1: just start with like these big old sheets of mirror stuff,

416
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 1: kind of the creation of almost like a mirror ra

417
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: material that is then rendered down into these smaller forms. Yeah,

418
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I wonder what happens with the leftover parts.

419
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 1: So like you cut the like circles and ovals and

420
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 1: squares out of it that you're selling to people. And

421
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 1: then what do you have? Do you have borders of

422
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 1: mirror stuff left over? Smaller and smaller mirrors, So like,

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00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: for instance, is a dentist mirror made from that same

424
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: process or do you need a different mirror making technique

425
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 1: in order to get that particular mirror? Are there certain

426
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: requirements for a for a dental for dental instruments that

427
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: requires a different mirror making process. Don't know, that's a

428
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: good question. I don't know if dental mirrors do involve

429
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 1: glass or not. I don't know. They might just be

430
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 1: metal to metal. It's weird. I've had for something that

431
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 1: has been inside my body so many times, I don't

432
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 1: think I've had a good look at it. Yeah, I've

433
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: never had a good look at that caveatron either. I

434
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 1: just close my eyes. Well, respect your work, dentists, y'all.

435
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 1: You'll do great things, but you know it's not fun. Yeah,

436
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: And you can't ever ask about these things either. I

437
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,719
Speaker 1: mean sometimes you I can get a question out here

438
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 1: and there, but it's it's hard, you know, because you're

439
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: and you're right. So at this point I want to

440
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about more about the mirror and

441
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: metaphor in the mirror and literature and the arts in general.

442
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: So we've spoken before. I think we've already touched on

443
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 1: in these episodes even about the importance of technology are

444
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: in our metaphors, and of course mirrors due factor pretty

445
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 1: heavily into our just everyday language mirrors and reflection. If you,

446
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 1: for instance, if you're researching some podcast episodes on mirrors

447
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: and reflections, you'll you'll often find this. You know, you'll

448
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 1: think you have a good source, and you'll start looking

449
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: around in the source for mentions of mirrors and reflection.

450
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: Then you realize, oh, some of these are not actual

451
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: discussions of mirrors or reflections. They're just using them to

452
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 1: discuss other things. Uh, they're using them as technological metaphors

453
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 1: to discuss something else that might actually be in a

454
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: within the same topic or an adjacent topic, etcetera. And

455
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: of course, one of the things about technological metaphors is

456
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: we've discussed, is that you can use a metaphor of

457
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: a technology that you don't fully understand to describe another

458
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: thing that you don't fully understand. And uh, but in

459
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 1: a in a weird way. It can be this heuristic

460
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: that allows you to um, I don't know, to go

461
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: through your day feeling like you understand what you're talking about,

462
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: Like the example we've often referred to as like the

463
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 1: idea of okay, security, video camera and memory. I'll use

464
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: this technological metaphor to understand my memory, even though I

465
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: really don't understand how the video camera works and I

466
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: don't understand how memory works, and it's giving me an actual,

467
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: you know, particularly but possibly harmful, but at least incorrect

468
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: idea of what my memory is and what my visual

469
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: perception consists of. Right, And so the mirror seems like

470
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: a perfect example of this kind of object of metaphor. Yeah,

471
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: because of course the mirror is for the most part,

472
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: it is a technology. We're talking about something that is

473
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: um Yes, yes, it can occur naturally, but then we

474
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: have this history of of using technology to augment it

475
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: and increase it until we get into this mirror age

476
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 1: that we live in. And yeah, it's it's difficult to

477
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: get through your day without using mirror terminology. I challenge

478
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: anyone to try it or imagine any work of art

479
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: without references to mirrors. So I was looking around for

480
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: any writings on this, and I found a book, a

481
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 1: really interesting book from three by Herbert Gravees titled uh

482
00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: the Mutable Glass, and particularly it's about the um the

483
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: use of the mirror as a as a metaphor, as

484
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: a symbol, etcetera in medieval European literature. And uh, yeah,

485
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: I was rather taken with with parts of this book.

486
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: I want to read a quick quote from it before

487
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: I continue. Quote, the employment of the mirror in metaphorical

488
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: context is so frequent and deliberate a strategy in the

489
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: English literature of the thirteen to seventeenth centuries that the

490
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: mirror can be said to constitute the central image for

491
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: a particular worldview. So much of the book that follows

492
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: is concerned with fleshing this out. You know, this is

493
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: the central thesis of the book. But but in brief like,

494
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: the mirror becomes this kind of metaphorical center, a frequent

495
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: focus of art and literature, and the subject and tool

496
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: of scientific study as well. So it's it's really this

497
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: kind of mirror mania. Now. Graves is upfront that his

498
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: chief focus is on medieval Europe thirteen through seventeen centuries,

499
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: but also points out that you do see. It's you

500
00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: do see the use of mirror show up in early

501
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: literatures as well, but during the time period of focus here,

502
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: he writes that you could you could almost call it

503
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: a fad. It was just so frequently employed. It was

504
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: this kind of mirror mania. And the reasoning for this,

505
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: he writes, is, first of all, twelfth century Europe had

506
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: relearned the ancient art of making glass mirrors, and the

507
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 1: following century saw uh medieval polished metal mirrors overtake those

508
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: of antiquity, because again, remember, the secret was lost and

509
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 1: and it was just the rich who could still hang

510
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: on to these antique mirrors made of metal or or

511
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: the or even some of these antique glass ones that

512
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: no one knew how to make anymore. But again, by

513
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: the fifteenth century, Venetian glassmakers had pushed the technology to

514
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: the point that the general public could get their hands

515
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: on these small, mass produced and ultimately inexpensive mirrors. Also,

516
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: during this time, like we've been discussing, keen and mercury

517
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: backings overtook lead and silver, and mirrors became larger, and

518
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: he ultimately compares this to um. He compares this a

519
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: little bit to how popular the photograph became in the

520
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, the craze of photography and uh, and we

521
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: would of course refer back to our invention episodes on

522
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: on this where we we talked about just what a

523
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: game changer this was and how it it just it

524
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: amazed people, it captured the public imagination, and and it

525
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: also changed the way we thought about ourselves and how

526
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: we interact with the world. Yeah, and I think um

527
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: had some effects on how we thought about the ideas

528
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: of like the objectivity of reality, like for the first

529
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: time that an an image of reality could be fixed

530
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,719
Speaker 1: in time in a somewhat objective way. Right. So Graves

531
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: writes that the mirror becomes just indispensable when it comes

532
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: to fashion, it becomes a central focus of art. Um.

533
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: The mirrors, uh, you know, had been of interest to

534
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: great thinkers of antiquity. Uh and the great thinkers of

535
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: the Middle Ages likewise picked it up, and we're fascinated

536
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: with it as well. So it's you just imagine just everybody,

537
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: every corner of life, no matter what your focus, you're

538
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: turning to the mirror. Are you engaging in theology or

539
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: engaging in philosophy? Are you a scientist, are you just

540
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: someone who's really into your appearance, Like the mirror is

541
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: going to play a role in pretty much all of

542
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: these contemplations. Um And of course his book is is

543
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: just full of examples of this, so I'm not gonna

544
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: roll through them. But for one literary example, you can,

545
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: of course turn to Dante. Uh. Dante makes extensive use

546
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: of mirrors in The Divine Comedy. Um And I was

547
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: I was reading another article that points out some of

548
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: the examples, here a titled light Reflection, Mirror, Metaphors and

549
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: Optical Framing and Dante's Comedy by Simon Gilson. In this

550
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: points of the Dante drew on his knowledge of the

551
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: law of light reflection, weakening by reflection and the multiplication

552
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: of mirror light, as well as the lead backing required

553
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: to make surfaces reflective uh than the mirror, the mirroring

554
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: properties of water, and the kind of image that is

555
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: visible in a mirror. Apparently you see all these different

556
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: ideas reflected in the Divine Comedy, And in this we

557
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: have I think we've touched on this before in the show.

558
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: We have to remember that Dante was a man that

559
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: was interested in a vast number of topics and he

560
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: managed to work just about all of them into his

561
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: into his writings, you know, from theology and mythology to

562
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: politics and personal grudges. Yes, but I mean this does

563
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: remind me how many parts of the Divine comedy there

564
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: are where he's just explaining in minute detail, um, things

565
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: about how the light is striking something, or how an

566
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: image is created. Uh, some of which I think is

567
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: Actually it can come off as kind of pedantic to

568
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: modern readers, but some of it is very correct. I

569
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: think other stuff he has about the physics of light

570
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: is kind of off base. Yeah, but but certainly, like

571
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: he is, his eyes are open to to to to

572
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: an understanding of how light is working and our reflections

573
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: are working, and then we see that in the work.

574
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: I think some of the key examples are from Purgatorio

575
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: and Paradiso. Um. There's one in particular that that Gilson highlights. Uh.

576
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: And this is not one I This is from Paradiso,

577
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: which I haven't spent as much time with. Uh. But

578
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: there's apparently a scene that again I don't remember where

579
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: Thomas the Quinas appears and describes how divine light passes

580
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: from the Triune God through angels and so forth. So

581
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: it's one of these where he's like he's getting he's

582
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: trying to explain this other worldly, almost you know, psychedelic

583
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: effect of beholding the celestial realms and using his understanding

584
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: of of optics to do so. Yeah, totally. Uh. There

585
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: there is a lot of light in the parody. So

586
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: I was going to pull a quote from it, but

587
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: I was like, I was looking over and I'm like, well,

588
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: this is this is kind of I don't know if

589
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: that the listeners want this. So. Um. One of the

590
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: things about about the Divine Comedy, I mean it's it

591
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,719
Speaker 1: is in its entirety a master work of of Western

592
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: literature and medieval literature for sure, But um, it is uh,

593
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: it's more it's ultimately, I think, more fun. When you're

594
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: in Hell, it's more fun. And Inferno, like there's just

595
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: a lot more humor, uh, and there's more you know,

596
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: the grotesque. And of course, as you work up to

597
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,479
Speaker 1: Paradiso with Dante, you leave, you increasingly leave a lot

598
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: of that behind you, and so by the time you

599
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: get to uh, Paradiso, it's it's it's kind of a

600
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: different beast. The Paradiso still has plenty of politics in it,

601
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: that can be quite funny. It is, Yeah, it's it's

602
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: still good. Yeah. I think also maybe I'm a little

603
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: biased because the when I studied in college, I was

604
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: in a Dante class and we were kind of running

605
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: out of time by the time we got to Paradise,

606
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: so we kind of had to rush through it. We

607
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: we spent a lot of time in hell and purgatory. Yeah,

608
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: I agree that those tend to be a little bit more,

609
00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: They grab you more. Yeah, thank thank Now when it

610
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: comes to mirrors in visual art, there's there's so much

611
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: we might talk about here. We already mentioned the venus

612
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: effect in part one of this series, but I thought

613
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: we might touch on the art of fifteenth century early

614
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: uh Netherlandish artist John van Eyck Who's um, who in

615
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 1: particular is known for some of his paintings that feature mirrors.

616
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: In fact, there's one, uh there's one in particular that

617
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: I think a lot of you have probably seen, and

618
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: it is um the uh the Arnoldfini Wedding portrait from

619
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: fourteen thirty four. And Joe, would you would you mind

620
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: describing this painting for our listeners. Well, let's see, in

621
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: the foreground you have two aliens from zeta reticuli. Uh.

622
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: Now you have two humans who are are I guess

623
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: they are getting married, maybe they're There are two very

624
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: pale people, a man and a woman. The man is

625
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: wearing an extremely comical large black hat and the woman

626
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 1: is wearing a large green dress, and they're holding hands,

627
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: and there is a very cute small dog at their feet. Um.

628
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,919
Speaker 1: This observation is not original to me. I can't remember where.

629
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: I read this on some joke thread on the internet

630
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: long ago that was very funny, but uh. The author

631
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: of this thread pointed out that a distinctive feature of

632
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 1: the paintings of Jan Vanak is that everybody looks like

633
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin, and in this case, I think that is true. Yeah,

634
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 1: everybody looks like Putin, especially the guy in the big hat. Yeah, yeah, putsk.

635
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: But then in the in the deep background behind this

636
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,720
Speaker 1: sweating couple and their little dog is a wall mounted

637
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: convex mirror. Uh. And you can tell it's convex because

638
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: of the way the image is distorted, So it's around

639
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: mirror in a sort of wheel like frame, and then

640
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: within the looking glass part of it, the image is

641
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: sort of bent in the way you would recognize from

642
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: from a convex mirror. Uh, and of course it provides

643
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: I think, what is a fairly accurate during of what

644
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: their reflection would have been. So you're not seeing the

645
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: front of them. You were accurately seeing the backs of

646
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: the people that you're looking at in the foreground. Yes,

647
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 1: you see their backs, you see the rest of the room,

648
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: and then you see something else though. This is and

649
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: this is this is one of the fascinating things about

650
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: this picture. I think we've already talked about, Oh, you

651
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: know times and movies where you you accidentally see a

652
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: reflection of the camera crew. Well, in this painting, that's

653
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: kind of what is happening, or in some interpretations that's

654
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: what's happening because there are two individuals in a doorway

655
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: in the reflection in that that that strange round crenulated mirror,

656
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: and one of these individuals maybe the artist himself. Yeah,

657
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: it's hard to tell because at this point the detail

658
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 1: is very small, but you see like a framed doorway,

659
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: and um, it looks like somebody dressed in red and

660
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 1: somebody dressed in blue or standing there. So it could

661
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: be like the blue guy is standing there painting the couple,

662
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: and that is van Ike. Yeah, they're some different interpretations

663
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: of it. And then there are words above the mirror

664
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: that read Johannes van Eck rules No, I mean it

665
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: says he was here. Um. So a lot has been

666
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: written about this work, and certainly if you haven't seen it,

667
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: I highly recommend checking it out because this is just

668
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: a beautiful, fascinating painting. Um. But a lot of the

669
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 1: ideas and interpretations come down to the eye to vision

670
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: and then I understanding of optics to relay spiritual ideas

671
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: concerning the nature of God. So sometimes you see the

672
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: mirror in this described as the eye of God. I

673
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:35,959
Speaker 1: was reading of a little bit more about this mirror

674
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 1: in an optical Revolution in the Middle Ages, the Hidden

675
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: Talents of Jen Vanik. And this was by Leavin Vandenable,

676
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: translated by Kate Connolly. And this is from the Low

677
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: Countries dot com. That's with hyphens, the hyphen Low hyphen

678
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: Countries dot com. It's an English language website to promote

679
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: the culture of Flanders and the Netherlands. And in this

680
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: article they point out that and I had first of

681
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: all an incredible actually game changing talent for painting light

682
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,720
Speaker 1: in addition to just having masterful old painting oil painting

683
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: techniques in general, and he also had a knack for

684
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: observing the interplay of light and shadow and then of

685
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: course reproducing that in his work. Um and and this

686
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 1: kind of you know, leads to the question, well, okay,

687
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: it's just like a natural ability to you set this

688
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: natural insight. You just have this I for how light

689
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 1: is interplaying with the natural world. Um. Well, that I

690
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 1: think some kind of leaning towards that that interpretation. But

691
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: then there's a there's this other hypothesis that he was

692
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: actually quite well read on the topic of optics for

693
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: the day. So the author here writes that van van

694
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: I might might have learned about optics from the work

695
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: of Arabic mathematician astronomer al Hasan, who I believe we've

696
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: talked about before, who lived through tim forty In particular

697
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: al Hasan's book The Book of Optics, which was translated

698
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: into Latin and was also well known in Europe by

699
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: the fifteenth century. So it presented new theories concerning how

700
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: we see, how mirrors and lenses function, and how images

701
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: are formed. Okay. Now, al Hasen is sometimes known as

702
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: the father of optics, and he worked extensively with mirrors

703
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: and lenses. Um, there's something called al Hasan's problem that

704
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: is named for him. It's a this is a mathematical

705
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: problem in geometrical optics, which was actually first posed by

706
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: Ptolemy in one but to which al Hasn't provides an

707
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: answer in his work Optics. So you can look up

708
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: You really should look up images of the problem if

709
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: you want a better understanding of it. But basically, the

710
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: basic problem is often described as follows. Given a light

711
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: source and a spherical mirror, find the point on the

712
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 1: mirror where the light will be reflected to the eye

713
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: of an observer. So al Hasen solved it with geometry,

714
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: but it remained unsolved using algebra aic methods until the

715
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: twentieth century. So anyway, the idea here is that perhaps

716
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: when we're looking at the works of van Ike, we're

717
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: looking at someone who had at least some degree of

718
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: familiarity with these ideas, with these uh with these learned

719
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: concepts about optics and the inner workings of mirrors, that

720
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: that traveled out of the Arab world into Europe, either

721
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: in that translation of of his book on optics, or

722
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: perhaps through another text that referred back to it. One

723
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: that the authors mentioned here was John Peckham's um Perspective

724
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,280
Speaker 1: of Communists, And this was an author who lived twelve

725
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: thirty through twelve nine two, and this would have been

726
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: a text available to Vanis as well. I would imagine

727
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: that the problem of drawing, even if you're currently looking

728
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: at it, the problem of drawing an image as reflected

729
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 1: in a convex mirror has got to be really difficult.

730
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: I said drawing, But I guess in any way visually

731
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: rendering for an artist painting or drawing or whatever, um

732
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 1: because and I don't know, maybe we could hear from

733
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: painters if I'm wrong about this, But my understanding of

734
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 1: the way painting works is that it is difficult to

735
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: just purely reproduce an image you're looking at as the

736
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: I sees it. But you have to kind of rely

737
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: on some stereotypical forms to reproduce the image on the

738
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: on the painting. So like you, you have in your

739
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: mind sort of standard forms of things, like what you know,

740
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 1: how a hand works, how an arm is, how a

741
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 1: face is, and then you are taking those standard forms

742
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: and reproducing them with the information of the image that

743
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: you're looking at right now. To just sort of fill

744
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 1: in the detail. But I would think those standard forms

745
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: wouldn't really work for an image that's being distorted by

746
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: a curved mirror. Yeah. Now, if you want to hear

747
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 1: more about how mirrors impacted the world of of painting,

748
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: our episode on the camera obscure it goes into that

749
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 1: a little bit, and it front ideas and hypotheses concerning

750
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: the use of the camera obscura as a means of

751
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: of augmenting the creative process of painting. But but even

752
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: without getting into this idea of using a camera obscura

753
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: to project something onto a canvas and then use that

754
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 1: as sort of a scaffolding on which you create your art,

755
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: I think the one of the ideas here that's that's

756
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 1: really tantalizing. It's just the the the more that these

757
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: artists were able to understand what they were seeing, how

758
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 1: they were seeing, and how light was working, how shadow worked,

759
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: enabled them to better capture it on the canvas um,

760
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: which on one on one hand like this this totally

761
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: makes sense. But on the other I do feel like

762
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: this has to make a special kind of sense. Two

763
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: individuals who um who are well versed in painting and

764
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: the visual arts, you know, Uh, because because yeah, because, Yeah,

765
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 1: what's the difference between painting light and shadow if you

766
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: don't know what light and shadow really are and painting

767
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: light and shadow when you you have a better understanding

768
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 1: of of the the optical reality of what you're seeing. Yeah,

769
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: just off, Mike, Rob and I were discussing whether this

770
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: is the end of the Mirror series or whether we're

771
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 1: coming back for more. And here here's the mind blower.

772
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 1: We haven't made up our minds yet, so you'll just

773
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: have to be out there dangling, not knowing whether the

774
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: next episode is going to be something new or whether

775
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: the Mirror journey continues. But there's a million more interesting

776
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 1: things we could talk about, so maybe more mirrors or

777
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: maybe onto something else. Yeah, and even if the next

778
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 1: episode we do is not about mirrors, that doesn't mean

779
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: we can't come back and do mirrors. So certainly, if

780
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: there's anything that you feel that we we missed or

781
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: we skipped over, or something you you want to know

782
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: about that we didn't cover in this Mirror saga, then

783
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: let us know. We would love to hear from you.

784
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to listen to

785
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. If you

786
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 1: want to catch up on all these mirror episodes or

787
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 1: look up those photography camera Obscura, etcetera, you can find

788
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: all of our episodes in this Stuff to Blow your

789
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: Mind podcast feed, and you'll find that feed wherever you

790
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursday's, Artifact

791
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: on Wednesday, listener mail on Monday's, and on Friday we

792
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,919
Speaker 1: do a little a little weird house cinema. That's when

793
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: we set aside most of the science and we just

794
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: talked about a weird film for a little bit. Huge

795
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson.

796
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

797
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other to suggest

798
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: topic for the future, just to say hello, you can

799
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

800
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of

801
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio,

802
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're

803
00:44:45,960 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows. First as a table b