WEBVTT - SYSK Selects: Is Stockholm Syndrome real? 0:00:01.160 --> 0:00:04.760 Hey everybody, it's me Josh and this Saturday for s 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:08.400 Y s K selects. I chose is Stockholm Syndrome. Real 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:11.760 originally ran in November of two thousand and twelve, and 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:15.640 it's got it all, mostly kidnapping, but it's some other 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:17.960 stuff as well. It's just one of my all time 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.880 favorite episodes. So check it out. Hope you enjoy it. 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:28.520 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from house Stuff Works 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:37.600 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:42.080 with me as always Charles W Chuck Bryant, and I'm 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:45.400 still sick. I'm sorry about that. Like this is this 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:48.879 is actually me with my nose blowed. I think at 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.480 this point we could recommend to listeners who typically listen 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:56.040 with earbuds or headphones, maybe get this woner, try just 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.920 in your car speakers. That's probably a good idea. Yeah, 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.080 Jerry was like, dude, have you heard this you headphones? 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:06.679 Did you listen to it? No? Not yet, But we 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:11.360 don't wear headphones here, which is odd for audio recording. Yeah, 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:13.920 a lot of people like hearing headphones right in there here. 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.160 I don't like that. I don't either. We're told we're 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:19.760 the only ones here, who don't do that? Hey, we're tazed. 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:25.360 Maybe that's a secret. Yeah, um, chuckers, Yes, have you 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:30.440 ever been kidnapped? Uh? Not in a in the strictest 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.560 of senses. I have been kidnapped in the fun church 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:37.319 youth group. Way, oh for like diabetes or something like 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.520 when someone comes back and kidnaps you for a cause, 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:42.000 you know, yeah, which is an odd thing to do. 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.120 I always felt kind of left out because no one 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:47.920 ever kidnapped me for any cause. Oh yeah, yeah, Well 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.240 maybe I'll do that one day, just get the crap 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:53.960 out of you. Break in your house with ski mask 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.800 on duct tape. Um, I probably recognize you by your clothes. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:00.280 You can wear a ski mask and be like, what 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:08.200 do I know that kidnapper? I know that beef stew smell. Anyway, Um, 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:10.720 it's a good thing that you were kidnapped just for 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.400 a cause, because there's a very low likelihood that you 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:16.959 would have suffered from what's known as Stockholm syndrome from 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:20.920 being held uh basically ransom until you raised X number 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:26.320 of dollars for Juvenile Diabetes Foundation. Um. There are a 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:29.880 lot of cases, a surprising amount of cases, even in 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.960 the statistics that are used to poo poo the concept 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:37.040 of Stockholm syndrome or its prevalence. It's still a surprising 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:41.560 amount of cases of people who are abducted. Um, people 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:45.560 who are held in like slave as slaves or hostages. Yeah, 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:48.040 it's not like a ransom deal. It's just I'm gonna 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:49.720 take you now and put you in my seller for 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:53.520 fifteen years. That's that. Depending it depends on how you 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:55.040 look at it. But yeah, and it depends on the 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:59.840 factors involved. But there there is a weird phenomenon that 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:03.320 we do not yet have fully pinned down yet. Even 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:06.400 that toy dinosaur can tell you what it is. And 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.760 it's called Stockholm syndrome. That's right. Uh, And it's got 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:13.560 a pretty it's it's it's a crazy thing because it's 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:18.919 a psychological disorder that almost no one ever will endure. Um, 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:21.320 the press loves it, so they talk about it all 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.920 the time, and it has an awesome backstory, so basically 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:29.799 has everything there for everyone to just overestimate the prevalence 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:32.600 of it. Yeah, I think the press loves it because 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:35.320 it's a has the like the name, and like you said, 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:40.280 the cool backstory. But I don't agree. But to the press, 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:42.680 I think they think it's just like, how can anyone 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:46.280 ever feel for their captor? It's so remarkable that this happens. 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:48.240 But when I read this article, I'm kind of like 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:50.320 I get it a little bit in some cases, and 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.400 and like, especially in this day and age, after so 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:56.120 many incidents of it being reported and covered in like 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:01.000 US and people and time and whatever, um, it's it 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.920 almost comes off as disingenuous. Where the press is the 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:07.640 tabloid press particular, is like, how could how could this person? Yeah, 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:12.240 you know, identificitely sensational and not like empathetic, it seems like. 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:14.400 But that's the point though. I mean, I guess we 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.200 should probably define what Stockholm syndrome is for that one 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:21.119 person who doesn't know. Yeah, it's well, when you're held 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:24.920 captive for some period of time and you end up um, 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.240 and it's actually not always being held captive because they 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:32.360 said in battered spouse cases or slave master relationship, um, 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:36.880 you end up feeling empathy and identifying somewhat with your captor. Yeah, 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.400 it's destructive culture. Another one. Uh, And I would advise 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:42.920 everybody to go listen to the Brainwashing episode and if 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:44.360 you've already heard it a lot of this stuff is 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:46.840 gonna sound kind of familiar because the two share a 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:53.000 lot of common traits. UM, there are some some specific 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:57.839 traits to Stockholm syndrome, some factors that that psychology generally 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:03.760 agrees have to be present for somebody to develop Stockholm syndrome. UM. 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:06.400 But let's talk about where this came from. You wanted 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:08.840 to sure the first the seventy three. I wonder what 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:11.600 they called it before this. UM. I saw two other 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:13.640 names for it, but I don't know if they predated 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:22.159 Stockholm syndrome. Terror bonding and trauma bonding. Terror binding tuating 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:25.320 new kind of phrase. It seems like a traumatic bonding 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:27.839 was the other one. That's the no frills, like, we're 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:32.080 not sensationalizing here. This is the real deal. Well, it 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:37.600 came from a bank robbery in nineteen seventy three in Stockholm, Sweden. 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.000 And this article actually has it wrong. It's his two 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:43.799 men entered the bank. There's actually just one dude, Wilson 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:48.599 entered the bank. Uh, cops showed up for this bank robbery. 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:52.279 Shootout happens in there, some cops. He takes some hostages, 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:56.520 and then he demands that his buddy Olafson, who I 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:58.560 think just got out of jail. No, he was in jail. 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:00.880 I thought he was in jail, and they freed him 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:03.920 and sent him to this bank, and I guess was like, 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:10.359 thanks buddy, here's a gun. Yeah, a hostage standoff. And 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:12.080 he was kind of a career criminal, so I doubt 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:13.880 if he was like, well, great, now I'm out of 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.880 I was two months from being let out. Right now 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:20.680 here I am holding people hostage. Um, he sort of 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:22.400 looked the second guy I thought looked a little bit 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:25.640 like koresh Oh really yeah, a little bit, which one 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:31.640 Olsen or ericson because okay, oh yeah yeah Olsen, Yeah, 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:34.760 Olsen looks kind of like Charlie Manson a little bit. 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:39.960 Then again nineteen seventy three, everybody looked like Charlie. So 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:43.640 what happens in this case is, um, it's a it's 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:49.200 a standoff. There's a hostage situation. And reportedly the hostages 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:53.360 ended up showing uh love for the captors and we're 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.200 sort of against the cops. And one reason I saw 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:58.159 a side it was because they felt like the cops 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:02.480 were put them in more dranger like with their violent 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.600 tactics that they thought were coming down upon them. Yeah, 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:08.719 so that's what happened. They said, Stockholm syndrome. I wrode 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:11.760 this rite up by the guy. Um, a psychologist named 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:17.040 Nils Bergerat. He was actually the one of the hostage negotiators, 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.880 the a liaison for the police to these hostage takers. 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:24.360 That credit Bonkin. Is that how you say it? But 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:28.360 the bank? Yeah, credit Bonkin? Yeah. Um, So he was 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.240 there and they actually he's usually credited with coining the 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:34.559 term Stockholm syndrome. Um. But he was saying, like, after 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.040 talking with these guys that they weren't insane, they weren't 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:40.200 on drugs. They were like, like you said, career criminals, 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:43.040 and every move they made was to like benefit themselves 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:46.800 or their situation. It was beneath them to hurt these people, 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.520 to hurt their hostages. But they loved shooting at cops 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:54.080 because they hated cops, and they were not above threatening 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.080 these hostages lives to the point where the hostages were 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.120 taking it seriously. But yes, um, it seemed like the 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:04.040 police were putting them in danger with these raids. Yeah. 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:07.120 What surprised me was how quickly like the only reason 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:09.960 Stockholm syndrome makes sense to me is that when it 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:12.520 takes place over like years, Like this was a little 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:15.280 weird to me. Okay, here's the thing. There's a great 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:19.680 debate over whether and by great debate, the people disagree 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:25.440 over whether Stockholm syndrome develops over a short intense period 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.840 or a long protracted period. So like in the case 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:35.000 of say Um Natasha Kemp, push, yeah, let's tell her story. 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.120 I guess real quick. Okay. She was an Austrian girl 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:42.120 who disappeared in the way to school and she was 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:45.920 kept in a fifty four square foot seller with sound 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:51.959 proof with no windows by Wolfgang uh prick Lapel and 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:54.800 told her the doors and windows were booby trapped. You 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:59.280 can't escape, um, and they like, how many years was this? 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.679 She was held for for eight years? Eight years? Sorry, 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.040 and they were you know, they ended up. You know, 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:11.080 she went on a ski vacation with them. Um. Eventually 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.120 was like let out of the basement during the day, 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:15.640 had to go back at night always, and like would 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.440 go to restaurants occasionally. Uh. And she eventually escaped when 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.920 um she was vacuum ng and uh he took a 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.480 phone call when in the other room and she left 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:31.040 the vacuum running and bolted, which was pretty smart. And 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.520 when he found out. She eventually made it to a 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:36.800 neighbor's house and I went inside, and this old lady 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.319 called the cops and she's like, I'm this girl that's 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:44.040 been missing all these years. And eventually, Um, he jumped 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:46.400 in front of a train when he found out she 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:50.720 got out, killed himself. And apparently she cried and like 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:54.920 lit candles at the morgue where he was kept, and 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:58.400 also denied that she suffered from Stockholm syndrome. Okay, so 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:01.680 I can't give you another one. J. C. Lee Duggard. 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.000 Um remember that much more recent, much more familiar, I'm 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.760 sure to those of us in the US, especially those 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:11.559 of us who pay attention to us weekly. Um. But 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:17.040 she was held for eighteen years. She her captor, She 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:22.480 assisted her captor with his home business. Captors captors um 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:26.960 with their home business, emailed customers, took phone calls from customers, 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:31.320 greeted customers at the door by herself. Um. Basically it 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.480 was a lot like Natasha's story, where like she was 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:38.079 like living out in plain sight with these people and 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:40.520 like had all these opportunities to like make a make 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:43.400 a run for it, and like never did. Um. And 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:47.640 he was a kidnapper. He was already serve time for kidnapping. Yeah, 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:51.760 I believe so. Um when she was finally freed, she 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:56.160 um her I guess her stepfather was explaining it to 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.760 the press that she really had strong feelings for this guy, 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:03.079 and like she thought of this as like a marriage basically, 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:05.640 I mean, she was held captive for eighteen years, right. 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.200 So on the one side, those are two really good 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.680 examples of Stockholm syndrome to like coming to see your 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:18.280 captor as your husband, or to cry and like, you know, 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:22.040 light candles at morgue for your captor after he kills himself. 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.160 But then on the other side, there's like the remember 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:30.600 the t w A hijackers. Um, somebody who was freed 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:37.600 after that relatively short stand off um said that these were, um, 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:40.800 they weren't bad people. Quote, the terrorists weren't bad people. 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:43.360 They let me eat, they let me sleep, they gave 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:47.200 me my life. And that was a really short, brief, 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.640 intense encounter. And those are like kind of the different 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:54.439 sides of the whole thing. So like, which one if 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.600 you become a member of your captor's family, is that 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.880 Stockholm syndrome or is a slightly differ for netable, if 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:04.360 you come to see your captors your savior simply because 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.160 they're letting you live over like the course of like 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.400 twenty four hours while they're holding you. Or is that 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:14.400 Stockholm syndrome? Which ones which because we have slightly different 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:20.520 things going on and they're both really abnormal psychologically speaking. Agreed, 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:25.200 and I think it was the girl in Austria said that, like, 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:28.240 on the plus side, I didn't drink or do drugs 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:30.520 or smoke, and I didn't hang out with like bad kids. 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:35.120 Sounds a seller, so I mean, obviously we're not laughing 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:38.240 at her, but it was definitely a unique take on 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:44.160 being held captive. And one of the things too, like, uh, 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:47.600 I guess we'll eventually get to um Patty Hirst. But 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.960 in the case of these girls, they were like, you know, 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:54.920 the one was ten years old when she was originally kidnapped, 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:59.280 So I mean, when you're ten, I think you would 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.120 be much more acceptible to something like this over the 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.400 course of like your entire adolescence growing up, is your 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:08.760 teenage years like this your you know, it makes sense 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:10.800 to me a little bit that you accept it and 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:14.760 see these people as your protectors anyway, But that's the 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:18.520 common thread. Whether it's a short, brief, intense period or 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:22.920 eighteen years of captivity, the common thread is that Stockholm 0:13:22.960 --> 0:14:01.040 syndrome developing. It is seen as a survival strategy. So 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.920 let's let's talk about the factors involved. Shall we we 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:08.080 shall what traits must be? The three traits are a 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:13.120 severely uneven power relationship, which makes sense. The captor is 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.199 completely in charge of every facet of your life. When 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:19.400 you eat, when you sleep, how you sleep, where you sleep, 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.200 what you eat, what you drink, if you can shower 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:26.200 or not, like everything, if you can talk, what whether 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.960 or not you're like chained to a bed um threat 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:34.200 or threat of death or physical injury um, and a 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.000 lot of times that includes like you know, rape and 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:41.360 assault and severe beatings. There's another one like I'll talk 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:43.960 about that in the second, but there's there's a disagreement 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:47.880 about whether that's can be president or not really. And 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:51.000 then finally, self preservation instinct, which is what we were 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:53.960 talking about. They believe, like the only way my butts 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.960 gonna get out of here is if I obey, Yeah, obey, 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.120 And it's called a healthy ego as this is a 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.720 self preservation instinct. Like your ego starts to take over 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.560 and says, okay, um, we need to figure out how 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:11.280 to stay alive here. Its solution on the skin right exactly? 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:16.479 Or else what? Or else it's the hose again. Uh. 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:20.840 And so that ego takes over because all other normal 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:24.200 tactics available to any free human being to stay alive, 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:31.160 grabbing a gun, calling the police, shouting, um, whatever are 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:34.360 stripped from that person. Well. Sure, And in the case 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:37.160 of the Austrian girl, she was told things were booby trapped, 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.200 like windows and doors, and that he said he had 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:41.720 a gun on him at all times. And when your 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.720 tin and you grow up like this, like how are 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:46.720 you going to figure this out? You know you're not 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:49.480 watching TV, you're obviously not on the internet, Like for 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.440 all she knew things were booby trapped and she's trying 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.720 to live. Um. There's two other factors that usually have 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.720 to be present too, is the prisoner has to believe 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:04.120 that escape is impossible, like you were saying booby traps 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:07.760 or whatever, um that there there's just no escape, there's 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:11.840 no there's no um other thing to focus the mind on, 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:14.640 like how how can I dig my way out of here? 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:19.440 It's totally focused on the captor being the means of 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.840 escape or survival um. And then the the prisoner also 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.320 has to be isolated. So this one kind of like 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:29.880 undermines the idea of somebody who's held captive in plain 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:35.040 sight for eighteen years developing classic Stockholm syndrome because if 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:40.080 you if you were totally isolated from the outside world, 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:46.480 other opinions of the captor are sequestered from you. Yeah, 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:50.560 so that Lieutenant Denzel Washington out there an inside man, 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:54.240 and what he thinks of Clive Owens is not coming through. 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:59.600 All you have is your your increasingly deranged mind um 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.160 to tell you what you think about Clive Owens. You know. 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.800 I'm gonna add my own here too. I think that 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:10.720 part of it has to do with just humans desire 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:14.160 to connect with another human. And if all you've got 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:16.800 is this one person and it's over the course of 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:20.399 eight to eighteen years, that's gonna take over at some 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:22.280 point and you're gonna want to connect with this person, 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.200 you know. I think you may have just hit upon 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:30.159 the distinction between the two, the short intense period and 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:34.600 the long duration. Yeah, because think about it like you do. 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:37.639 If you are just kept apart from everybody else, you 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.800 do still have that need to connect with pure That's brilliant, Chuck, 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:43.920 that may be the most brilliant thing you said yet 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:49.240 my dinosaurs clapping. Yeah, it's better than the caveman Milton 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:54.680 in Neanderthals a good theory. Um, okay, so we we 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:58.280 know all of this stuff that has to be present. Right. Basically, 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:02.760 you're a hostage that is totally subject to the whims 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.200 of your captor. You think you're going to die, Um, 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.359 you don't think there's any escape. You're sequestered away from 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.639 other people. Um, and your captor likes to remind you 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:16.080 that he or she is in charge. Yes, okay, let's 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.520 talk about the stages. Well, that is the first stage 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.959 and I just went over it. Um. Also threatening the family, 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:25.760 like hey, you love your little brother and your mom 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:27.760 and your dad, while I can kill them very easily, 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:29.960 like if you try to escape, and if you're talking 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:32.439 to a little ten year old girl, that's gonna you know, 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:34.880 do some serious damage. It has more effect than saying 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:39.800 like a forty year old single guy, yeah I think so, yeah, 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.800 or a married guy well no, I don't know. You 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.760 can still threaten a married guy's family, a family man's family. 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:47.800 It's just yeah. But I think they would react like, 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:51.280 you know, like Harrison Fordwood on Air Force One. Yeah, 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.520 not cowering. They would be like, oh, yeah, what was 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:57.080 the famous line you shouldn't test me? You know, was 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.399 get off my plane. Yeah, that's what it was, you 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:02.840 shouldn't test me. That's pretty good though. I think that 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:07.359 was in the initial script. Um. Well, of course my 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:12.520 line got revised. Very funny. Um. So time goes on 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.920 U and then what happens is the captor gets stressed 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.480 out because I'm sure it's pretty stressful to keep someone 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:24.119 captive like that. So the captive, the kidnapp e, sees 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:28.840 these wild mood swings maybe and maybe feels threatened by this, 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:32.720 and in order to survive again, they feel like they 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.560 have to learn the emotional patterns of this person. And 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:38.920 so what happens is they end up connecting and by 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:41.720 learning about this person, by studying their behavior, they get 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:43.959 to know him and like that sits right, yeah, And 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.520 that's like when they figure out that just obeying everything 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.879 the person says is not enough, because the fuzz outside 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.080 shooting tear gas into the bank vault is really starting 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:57.200 to take the hostage, take her off, and you can 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:59.959 obey all day long, but the police are screwing. Thing 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.359 is up. And I'll bet that's also about the time 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:06.480 when that um, that third step where you come to 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:10.400 see um the outside world, the people who are trying 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:15.440 to rescue you as harmful as a threat. Yeah. Um, 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:19.040 So you get to know your captor you're obeying um. 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:21.359 And then it comes this part where if you listen 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:24.600 to the Brainwash episode, this will make a lot of sense. 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:31.680 Um your captor displays some minor bit of kindness towards you. Yeah, 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:33.720 this is the key, I think, and this is why 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:37.520 they think possibly abuse can't be present. Oh yeah, yeah, 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:42.080 because because it breaks down this very essential ingredient of kindness, 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.000 or it can't well or if the abuse stops, they said, 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.600 sometimes just the lack of violence from a certain point 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:50.320 the scene, as like, will you do me a kindness? Okay, 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:52.600 quit beating and raping me. So I would I would 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.120 agree with you on that one. But for the most part, say, 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:57.840 it could be offering food. It could be something as 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:02.440 simple as stopping abusing some buddy, or just saying I'm 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:05.040 not going to kill you yet, or I'm not just 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:09.800 not killing the person yet, and the the captor, Um, no, 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:13.840 the hostage comes to see the captor as some sort 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:17.600 of savior because the captor not only can kill you 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.800 because he's got your life in his hands, he's not 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:24.760 killing you, which means he's protecting you. And now your 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.960 brain just broke a little bit. Well. And and if 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:30.080 they're the one bringing you your food and water and 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.840 books and magazines, like, they're essentially the one caring for 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.840 you because they're keeping you alive. And in the case 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:40.399 of J. C. Lee Duggard, um, I think like on 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:44.080 the very first day after she was like handcuffed and raped, 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:46.920 the guy was started to tell her like amusing stories 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:51.680 and things. I mean, this dude was seriously twisted, but um, 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:53.840 and like would get her fast food and things like that, 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:55.960 so like kind of right out of the gate, he 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:59.920 would like do these little random acts of kindness, which 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:02.200 I'm sure just confused the hell Ouever, Oh yeah, bet, 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:05.000 because she was pretty young when she was I think 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:09.280 she was ten. There's nothing can you imagine you could 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:11.600 do to these people that would be as bad as 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:16.360 what they did to those No, you know it's absolutely true. Um, 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:20.000 there's another woman whose name I don't recall, who was 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:24.840 kept in a box under a bed Helena. No, No, 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:29.200 it was like for real for years, Like she wasn't 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:31.760 like allowed out or anything like that, Like she was 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:35.200 kept in a box. Yeah. And it's like, you raise 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:37.960 a pretty good point. What what can you possibly do 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:40.960 to somebody who did that to someone else? I mean that, 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:44.360 do you think just desserts like eye for an eye? Yeah, 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:46.880 while you put him in prison and they eventually get 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:49.119 out or down't. I guess that's similar. But the prison 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:52.040 is although it has some of those hallmarks because the 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:53.879 guards are in charge and can beat you up, and 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:56.159 there a lot of stuff. You're still connected in some 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:59.400 ways to the outside world, and there's still a lot 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:03.320 of dependence that the prisoner would have that somebody like 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:06.000 being held hostage like this stuff like it would probably 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:11.800 be solitary confinement for the duration. Yeah, uh, the old 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:15.240 Quaker sentence, right. Remember they're the ones who came up 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:39.000 with solitary so you could think about what you did. So, um, 0:23:39.040 --> 0:23:44.400 the captain now has emerged as your savior and as 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:47.159 a friend kind of. And I think it's in the 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:49.800 sense of, you know, when you go through something like 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:53.920 really hardcore and intense and threatening with somebody, but it's 0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:56.840 not because of them. Like you can feel either tight 0:23:57.040 --> 0:23:59.399 with that person or you can feel like Homer and 0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:02.320 Mr Burr is getting trapped in that house during the avalanche. 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:04.159 I never want to talk about it again. Yeah, you 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:08.080 never want to see that weirdo again, right, um, But 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:12.160 this would be type A. But the it's you're identifying 0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:14.640 with your captor, Like you guys are going through this crazy, 0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:17.480 intense thing together, and you're throwing out the window the 0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:20.960 fact that the captor has started all this and has 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:23.760 dragged you into it, put your life in jeopardy, and 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:27.480 now you're friends with this person, and you think that 0:24:27.520 --> 0:24:29.159 if you guys work together, you can get out of 0:24:29.160 --> 0:24:32.359 this mess and maybe like go, you know, live in 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:37.080 Jamaica and hang out well. And I'm sure that the 0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:39.120 captors at some point over the course of these years 0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:41.879 say things to reinforce that, like you know, what are 0:24:41.920 --> 0:24:44.760