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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, it's me Josh and this Saturday for s

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Speaker 1: Y s K selects. I chose is Stockholm Syndrome. Real

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Speaker 1: originally ran in November of two thousand and twelve, and

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Speaker 1: it's got it all, mostly kidnapping, but it's some other

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Speaker 1: stuff as well. It's just one of my all time

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Speaker 1: favorite episodes. So check it out. Hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from house Stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,

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Speaker 1: with me as always Charles W Chuck Bryant, and I'm

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Speaker 1: still sick. I'm sorry about that. Like this is this

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Speaker 1: is actually me with my nose blowed. I think at

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Speaker 1: this point we could recommend to listeners who typically listen

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Speaker 1: with earbuds or headphones, maybe get this woner, try just

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Speaker 1: in your car speakers. That's probably a good idea. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Jerry was like, dude, have you heard this you headphones?

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Speaker 1: Did you listen to it? No? Not yet, But we

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Speaker 1: don't wear headphones here, which is odd for audio recording. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people like hearing headphones right in there here.

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Speaker 1: I don't like that. I don't either. We're told we're

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Speaker 1: the only ones here, who don't do that? Hey, we're tazed.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's a secret. Yeah, um, chuckers, Yes, have you

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Speaker 1: ever been kidnapped? Uh? Not in a in the strictest

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Speaker 1: of senses. I have been kidnapped in the fun church

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Speaker 1: youth group. Way, oh for like diabetes or something like

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Speaker 1: when someone comes back and kidnaps you for a cause,

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, which is an odd thing to do.

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Speaker 1: I always felt kind of left out because no one

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Speaker 1: ever kidnapped me for any cause. Oh yeah, yeah, Well

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Speaker 1: maybe I'll do that one day, just get the crap

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Speaker 1: out of you. Break in your house with ski mask

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Speaker 1: on duct tape. Um, I probably recognize you by your clothes.

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Speaker 1: You can wear a ski mask and be like, what

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Speaker 1: do I know that kidnapper? I know that beef stew smell. Anyway, Um,

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Speaker 1: it's a good thing that you were kidnapped just for

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Speaker 1: a cause, because there's a very low likelihood that you

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Speaker 1: would have suffered from what's known as Stockholm syndrome from

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Speaker 1: being held uh basically ransom until you raised X number

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Speaker 1: of dollars for Juvenile Diabetes Foundation. Um. There are a

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Speaker 1: lot of cases, a surprising amount of cases, even in

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Speaker 1: the statistics that are used to poo poo the concept

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Speaker 1: of Stockholm syndrome or its prevalence. It's still a surprising

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Speaker 1: amount of cases of people who are abducted. Um, people

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Speaker 1: who are held in like slave as slaves or hostages. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not like a ransom deal. It's just I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: take you now and put you in my seller for

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Speaker 1: fifteen years. That's that. Depending it depends on how you

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Speaker 1: look at it. But yeah, and it depends on the

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Speaker 1: factors involved. But there there is a weird phenomenon that

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Speaker 1: we do not yet have fully pinned down yet. Even

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Speaker 1: that toy dinosaur can tell you what it is. And

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Speaker 1: it's called Stockholm syndrome. That's right. Uh, And it's got

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Speaker 1: a pretty it's it's it's a crazy thing because it's

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Speaker 1: a psychological disorder that almost no one ever will endure. Um,

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Speaker 1: the press loves it, so they talk about it all

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Speaker 1: the time, and it has an awesome backstory, so basically

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Speaker 1: has everything there for everyone to just overestimate the prevalence

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Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, I think the press loves it because

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Speaker 1: it's a has the like the name, and like you said,

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Speaker 1: the cool backstory. But I don't agree. But to the press,

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Speaker 1: I think they think it's just like, how can anyone

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Speaker 1: ever feel for their captor? It's so remarkable that this happens.

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Speaker 1: But when I read this article, I'm kind of like

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Speaker 1: I get it a little bit in some cases, and

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Speaker 1: and like, especially in this day and age, after so

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Speaker 1: many incidents of it being reported and covered in like

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Speaker 1: US and people and time and whatever, um, it's it

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Speaker 1: almost comes off as disingenuous. Where the press is the

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Speaker 1: tabloid press particular, is like, how could how could this person? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, identificitely sensational and not like empathetic, it seems like.

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Speaker 1: But that's the point though. I mean, I guess we

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Speaker 1: should probably define what Stockholm syndrome is for that one

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Speaker 1: person who doesn't know. Yeah, it's well, when you're held

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Speaker 1: captive for some period of time and you end up um,

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Speaker 1: and it's actually not always being held captive because they

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Speaker 1: said in battered spouse cases or slave master relationship, um,

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Speaker 1: you end up feeling empathy and identifying somewhat with your captor. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's destructive culture. Another one. Uh, And I would advise

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Speaker 1: everybody to go listen to the Brainwashing episode and if

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Speaker 1: you've already heard it a lot of this stuff is

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Speaker 1: gonna sound kind of familiar because the two share a

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Speaker 1: lot of common traits. UM, there are some some specific

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Speaker 1: traits to Stockholm syndrome, some factors that that psychology generally

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Speaker 1: agrees have to be present for somebody to develop Stockholm syndrome. UM.

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Speaker 1: But let's talk about where this came from. You wanted

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Speaker 1: to sure the first the seventy three. I wonder what

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Speaker 1: they called it before this. UM. I saw two other

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Speaker 1: names for it, but I don't know if they predated

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Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome. Terror bonding and trauma bonding. Terror binding tuating

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Speaker 1: new kind of phrase. It seems like a traumatic bonding

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Speaker 1: was the other one. That's the no frills, like, we're

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Speaker 1: not sensationalizing here. This is the real deal. Well, it

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Speaker 1: came from a bank robbery in nineteen seventy three in Stockholm, Sweden.

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Speaker 1: And this article actually has it wrong. It's his two

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Speaker 1: men entered the bank. There's actually just one dude, Wilson

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Speaker 1: entered the bank. Uh, cops showed up for this bank robbery.

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Speaker 1: Shootout happens in there, some cops. He takes some hostages,

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Speaker 1: and then he demands that his buddy Olafson, who I

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Speaker 1: think just got out of jail. No, he was in jail.

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Speaker 1: I thought he was in jail, and they freed him

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Speaker 1: and sent him to this bank, and I guess was like,

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Speaker 1: thanks buddy, here's a gun. Yeah, a hostage standoff. And

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Speaker 1: he was kind of a career criminal, so I doubt

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Speaker 1: if he was like, well, great, now I'm out of

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Speaker 1: I was two months from being let out. Right now

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Speaker 1: here I am holding people hostage. Um, he sort of

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Speaker 1: looked the second guy I thought looked a little bit

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Speaker 1: like koresh Oh really yeah, a little bit, which one

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Speaker 1: Olsen or ericson because okay, oh yeah yeah Olsen, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Olsen looks kind of like Charlie Manson a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Then again nineteen seventy three, everybody looked like Charlie. So

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Speaker 1: what happens in this case is, um, it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a standoff. There's a hostage situation. And reportedly the hostages

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Speaker 1: ended up showing uh love for the captors and we're

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Speaker 1: sort of against the cops. And one reason I saw

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Speaker 1: a side it was because they felt like the cops

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Speaker 1: were put them in more dranger like with their violent

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Speaker 1: tactics that they thought were coming down upon them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that's what happened. They said, Stockholm syndrome. I wrode

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Speaker 1: this rite up by the guy. Um, a psychologist named

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Speaker 1: Nils Bergerat. He was actually the one of the hostage negotiators,

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Speaker 1: the a liaison for the police to these hostage takers.

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Speaker 1: That credit Bonkin. Is that how you say it? But

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Speaker 1: the bank? Yeah, credit Bonkin? Yeah. Um, So he was

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Speaker 1: there and they actually he's usually credited with coining the

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Speaker 1: term Stockholm syndrome. Um. But he was saying, like, after

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Speaker 1: talking with these guys that they weren't insane, they weren't

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Speaker 1: on drugs. They were like, like you said, career criminals,

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Speaker 1: and every move they made was to like benefit themselves

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Speaker 1: or their situation. It was beneath them to hurt these people,

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Speaker 1: to hurt their hostages. But they loved shooting at cops

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Speaker 1: because they hated cops, and they were not above threatening

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Speaker 1: these hostages lives to the point where the hostages were

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Speaker 1: taking it seriously. But yes, um, it seemed like the

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Speaker 1: police were putting them in danger with these raids. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: What surprised me was how quickly like the only reason

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Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome makes sense to me is that when it

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Speaker 1: takes place over like years, Like this was a little

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Speaker 1: weird to me. Okay, here's the thing. There's a great

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Speaker 1: debate over whether and by great debate, the people disagree

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Speaker 1: over whether Stockholm syndrome develops over a short intense period

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Speaker 1: or a long protracted period. So like in the case

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Speaker 1: of say Um Natasha Kemp, push, yeah, let's tell her story.

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Speaker 1: I guess real quick. Okay. She was an Austrian girl

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Speaker 1: who disappeared in the way to school and she was

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Speaker 1: kept in a fifty four square foot seller with sound

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Speaker 1: proof with no windows by Wolfgang uh prick Lapel and

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Speaker 1: told her the doors and windows were booby trapped. You

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Speaker 1: can't escape, um, and they like, how many years was this?

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Speaker 1: She was held for for eight years? Eight years? Sorry,

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Speaker 1: and they were you know, they ended up. You know,

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Speaker 1: she went on a ski vacation with them. Um. Eventually

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Speaker 1: was like let out of the basement during the day,

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Speaker 1: had to go back at night always, and like would

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Speaker 1: go to restaurants occasionally. Uh. And she eventually escaped when

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Speaker 1: um she was vacuum ng and uh he took a

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Speaker 1: phone call when in the other room and she left

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Speaker 1: the vacuum running and bolted, which was pretty smart. And

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Speaker 1: when he found out. She eventually made it to a

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Speaker 1: neighbor's house and I went inside, and this old lady

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Speaker 1: called the cops and she's like, I'm this girl that's

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Speaker 1: been missing all these years. And eventually, Um, he jumped

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Speaker 1: in front of a train when he found out she

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Speaker 1: got out, killed himself. And apparently she cried and like

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Speaker 1: lit candles at the morgue where he was kept, and

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Speaker 1: also denied that she suffered from Stockholm syndrome. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: I can't give you another one. J. C. Lee Duggard.

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Speaker 1: Um remember that much more recent, much more familiar, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure to those of us in the US, especially those

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Speaker 1: of us who pay attention to us weekly. Um. But

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Speaker 1: she was held for eighteen years. She her captor, She

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Speaker 1: assisted her captor with his home business. Captors captors um

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Speaker 1: with their home business, emailed customers, took phone calls from customers,

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Speaker 1: greeted customers at the door by herself. Um. Basically it

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Speaker 1: was a lot like Natasha's story, where like she was

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Speaker 1: like living out in plain sight with these people and

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Speaker 1: like had all these opportunities to like make a make

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Speaker 1: a run for it, and like never did. Um. And

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Speaker 1: he was a kidnapper. He was already serve time for kidnapping. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I believe so. Um when she was finally freed, she

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Speaker 1: um her I guess her stepfather was explaining it to

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Speaker 1: the press that she really had strong feelings for this guy,

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Speaker 1: and like she thought of this as like a marriage basically,

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Speaker 1: I mean, she was held captive for eighteen years, right.

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Speaker 1: So on the one side, those are two really good

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Speaker 1: examples of Stockholm syndrome to like coming to see your

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Speaker 1: captor as your husband, or to cry and like, you know,

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Speaker 1: light candles at morgue for your captor after he kills himself.

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Speaker 1: But then on the other side, there's like the remember

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Speaker 1: the t w A hijackers. Um, somebody who was freed

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Speaker 1: after that relatively short stand off um said that these were, um,

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Speaker 1: they weren't bad people. Quote, the terrorists weren't bad people.

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Speaker 1: They let me eat, they let me sleep, they gave

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Speaker 1: me my life. And that was a really short, brief,

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Speaker 1: intense encounter. And those are like kind of the different

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Speaker 1: sides of the whole thing. So like, which one if

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Speaker 1: you become a member of your captor's family, is that

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Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome or is a slightly differ for netable, if

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Speaker 1: you come to see your captors your savior simply because

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Speaker 1: they're letting you live over like the course of like

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours while they're holding you. Or is that

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Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome? Which ones which because we have slightly different

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Speaker 1: things going on and they're both really abnormal psychologically speaking. Agreed,

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Speaker 1: and I think it was the girl in Austria said that, like,

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Speaker 1: on the plus side, I didn't drink or do drugs

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Speaker 1: or smoke, and I didn't hang out with like bad kids.

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Speaker 1: Sounds a seller, so I mean, obviously we're not laughing

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Speaker 1: at her, but it was definitely a unique take on

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Speaker 1: being held captive. And one of the things too, like, uh,

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Speaker 1: I guess we'll eventually get to um Patty Hirst. But

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Speaker 1: in the case of these girls, they were like, you know,

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Speaker 1: the one was ten years old when she was originally kidnapped,

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Speaker 1: So I mean, when you're ten, I think you would

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Speaker 1: be much more acceptible to something like this over the

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Speaker 1: course of like your entire adolescence growing up, is your

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Speaker 1: teenage years like this your you know, it makes sense

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Speaker 1: to me a little bit that you accept it and

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Speaker 1: see these people as your protectors anyway, But that's the

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Speaker 1: common thread. Whether it's a short, brief, intense period or

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Speaker 1: eighteen years of captivity, the common thread is that Stockholm

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Speaker 1: syndrome developing. It is seen as a survival strategy. So

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Speaker 1: let's let's talk about the factors involved. Shall we we

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Speaker 1: shall what traits must be? The three traits are a

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Speaker 1: severely uneven power relationship, which makes sense. The captor is

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Speaker 1: completely in charge of every facet of your life. When

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Speaker 1: you eat, when you sleep, how you sleep, where you sleep,

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Speaker 1: what you eat, what you drink, if you can shower

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Speaker 1: or not, like everything, if you can talk, what whether

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Speaker 1: or not you're like chained to a bed um threat

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Speaker 1: or threat of death or physical injury um, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of times that includes like you know, rape and

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Speaker 1: assault and severe beatings. There's another one like I'll talk

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Speaker 1: about that in the second, but there's there's a disagreement

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Speaker 1: about whether that's can be president or not really. And

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Speaker 1: then finally, self preservation instinct, which is what we were

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Speaker 1: talking about. They believe, like the only way my butts

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Speaker 1: gonna get out of here is if I obey, Yeah, obey,

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Speaker 1: And it's called a healthy ego as this is a

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Speaker 1: self preservation instinct. Like your ego starts to take over

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Speaker 1: and says, okay, um, we need to figure out how

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Speaker 1: to stay alive here. Its solution on the skin right exactly?

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Speaker 1: Or else what? Or else it's the hose again. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And so that ego takes over because all other normal

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Speaker 1: tactics available to any free human being to stay alive,

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Speaker 1: grabbing a gun, calling the police, shouting, um, whatever are

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Speaker 1: stripped from that person. Well. Sure, And in the case

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Speaker 1: of the Austrian girl, she was told things were booby trapped,

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Speaker 1: like windows and doors, and that he said he had

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Speaker 1: a gun on him at all times. And when your

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Speaker 1: tin and you grow up like this, like how are

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Speaker 1: you going to figure this out? You know you're not

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Speaker 1: watching TV, you're obviously not on the internet, Like for

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Speaker 1: all she knew things were booby trapped and she's trying

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Speaker 1: to live. Um. There's two other factors that usually have

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Speaker 1: to be present too, is the prisoner has to believe

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Speaker 1: that escape is impossible, like you were saying booby traps

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Speaker 1: or whatever, um that there there's just no escape, there's

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Speaker 1: no there's no um other thing to focus the mind on,

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Speaker 1: like how how can I dig my way out of here?

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Speaker 1: It's totally focused on the captor being the means of

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Speaker 1: escape or survival um. And then the the prisoner also

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Speaker 1: has to be isolated. So this one kind of like

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Speaker 1: undermines the idea of somebody who's held captive in plain

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Speaker 1: sight for eighteen years developing classic Stockholm syndrome because if

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Speaker 1: you if you were totally isolated from the outside world,

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Speaker 1: other opinions of the captor are sequestered from you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that Lieutenant Denzel Washington out there an inside man,

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Speaker 1: and what he thinks of Clive Owens is not coming through.

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Speaker 1: All you have is your your increasingly deranged mind um

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Speaker 1: to tell you what you think about Clive Owens. You know.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna add my own here too. I think that

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Speaker 1: part of it has to do with just humans desire

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Speaker 1: to connect with another human. And if all you've got

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Speaker 1: is this one person and it's over the course of

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Speaker 1: eight to eighteen years, that's gonna take over at some

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Speaker 1: point and you're gonna want to connect with this person,

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Speaker 1: you know. I think you may have just hit upon

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Speaker 1: the distinction between the two, the short intense period and

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Speaker 1: the long duration. Yeah, because think about it like you do.

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Speaker 1: If you are just kept apart from everybody else, you

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Speaker 1: do still have that need to connect with pure That's brilliant, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: that may be the most brilliant thing you said yet

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Speaker 1: my dinosaurs clapping. Yeah, it's better than the caveman Milton

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Speaker 1: in Neanderthals a good theory. Um, okay, so we we

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Speaker 1: know all of this stuff that has to be present. Right. Basically,

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Speaker 1: you're a hostage that is totally subject to the whims

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Speaker 1: of your captor. You think you're going to die, Um,

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Speaker 1: you don't think there's any escape. You're sequestered away from

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Speaker 1: other people. Um, and your captor likes to remind you

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Speaker 1: that he or she is in charge. Yes, okay, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about the stages. Well, that is the first stage

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Speaker 1: and I just went over it. Um. Also threatening the family,

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Speaker 1: like hey, you love your little brother and your mom

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Speaker 1: and your dad, while I can kill them very easily,

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Speaker 1: like if you try to escape, and if you're talking

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Speaker 1: to a little ten year old girl, that's gonna you know,

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Speaker 1: do some serious damage. It has more effect than saying

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Speaker 1: like a forty year old single guy, yeah I think so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or a married guy well no, I don't know. You

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Speaker 1: can still threaten a married guy's family, a family man's family.

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Speaker 1: It's just yeah. But I think they would react like,

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Speaker 1: you know, like Harrison Fordwood on Air Force One. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: not cowering. They would be like, oh, yeah, what was

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Speaker 1: the famous line you shouldn't test me? You know, was

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Speaker 1: get off my plane. Yeah, that's what it was, you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't test me. That's pretty good though. I think that

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Speaker 1: was in the initial script. Um. Well, of course my

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Speaker 1: line got revised. Very funny. Um. So time goes on

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Speaker 1: U and then what happens is the captor gets stressed

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Speaker 1: out because I'm sure it's pretty stressful to keep someone

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Speaker 1: captive like that. So the captive, the kidnapp e, sees

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Speaker 1: these wild mood swings maybe and maybe feels threatened by this,

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Speaker 1: and in order to survive again, they feel like they

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Speaker 1: have to learn the emotional patterns of this person. And

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Speaker 1: so what happens is they end up connecting and by

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Speaker 1: learning about this person, by studying their behavior, they get

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Speaker 1: to know him and like that sits right, yeah, And

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Speaker 1: that's like when they figure out that just obeying everything

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Speaker 1: the person says is not enough, because the fuzz outside

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Speaker 1: shooting tear gas into the bank vault is really starting

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Speaker 1: to take the hostage, take her off, and you can

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Speaker 1: obey all day long, but the police are screwing. Thing

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Speaker 1: is up. And I'll bet that's also about the time

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Speaker 1: when that um, that third step where you come to

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Speaker 1: see um the outside world, the people who are trying

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Speaker 1: to rescue you as harmful as a threat. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: So you get to know your captor you're obeying um.

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Speaker 1: And then it comes this part where if you listen

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Speaker 1: to the Brainwash episode, this will make a lot of sense.

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Speaker 1: Um your captor displays some minor bit of kindness towards you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is the key, I think, and this is why

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Speaker 1: they think possibly abuse can't be present. Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because because it breaks down this very essential ingredient of kindness,

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Speaker 1: or it can't well or if the abuse stops, they said,

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Speaker 1: sometimes just the lack of violence from a certain point

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Speaker 1: the scene, as like, will you do me a kindness? Okay,

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Speaker 1: quit beating and raping me. So I would I would

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Speaker 1: agree with you on that one. But for the most part, say,

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Speaker 1: it could be offering food. It could be something as

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Speaker 1: simple as stopping abusing some buddy, or just saying I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to kill you yet, or I'm not just

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Speaker 1: not killing the person yet, and the the captor, Um, no,

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Speaker 1: the hostage comes to see the captor as some sort

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Speaker 1: of savior because the captor not only can kill you

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Speaker 1: because he's got your life in his hands, he's not

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Speaker 1: killing you, which means he's protecting you. And now your

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Speaker 1: brain just broke a little bit. Well. And and if

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Speaker 1: they're the one bringing you your food and water and

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Speaker 1: books and magazines, like, they're essentially the one caring for

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Speaker 1: you because they're keeping you alive. And in the case

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Speaker 1: of J. C. Lee Duggard, um, I think like on

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Speaker 1: the very first day after she was like handcuffed and raped,

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Speaker 1: the guy was started to tell her like amusing stories

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Speaker 1: and things. I mean, this dude was seriously twisted, but um,

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Speaker 1: and like would get her fast food and things like that,

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Speaker 1: so like kind of right out of the gate, he

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Speaker 1: would like do these little random acts of kindness, which

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Speaker 1: I'm sure just confused the hell Ouever, Oh yeah, bet,

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Speaker 1: because she was pretty young when she was I think

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Speaker 1: she was ten. There's nothing can you imagine you could

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Speaker 1: do to these people that would be as bad as

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Speaker 1: what they did to those No, you know it's absolutely true. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's another woman whose name I don't recall, who was

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Speaker 1: kept in a box under a bed Helena. No, No,

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Speaker 1: it was like for real for years, Like she wasn't

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Speaker 1: like allowed out or anything like that, Like she was

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Speaker 1: kept in a box. Yeah. And it's like, you raise

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Speaker 1: a pretty good point. What what can you possibly do

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Speaker 1: to somebody who did that to someone else? I mean that,

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Speaker 1: do you think just desserts like eye for an eye? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: while you put him in prison and they eventually get

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Speaker 1: out or down't. I guess that's similar. But the prison

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Speaker 1: is although it has some of those hallmarks because the

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Speaker 1: guards are in charge and can beat you up, and

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Speaker 1: there a lot of stuff. You're still connected in some

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Speaker 1: ways to the outside world, and there's still a lot

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Speaker 1: of dependence that the prisoner would have that somebody like

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Speaker 1: being held hostage like this stuff like it would probably

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Speaker 1: be solitary confinement for the duration. Yeah, uh, the old

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Speaker 1: Quaker sentence, right. Remember they're the ones who came up

380
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Speaker 1: with solitary so you could think about what you did. So, um,

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Speaker 1: the captain now has emerged as your savior and as

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Speaker 1: a friend kind of. And I think it's in the

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Speaker 1: sense of, you know, when you go through something like

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Speaker 1: really hardcore and intense and threatening with somebody, but it's

385
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Speaker 1: not because of them. Like you can feel either tight

386
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 1: with that person or you can feel like Homer and

387
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Speaker 1: Mr Burr is getting trapped in that house during the avalanche.

388
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Speaker 1: I never want to talk about it again. Yeah, you

389
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 1: never want to see that weirdo again, right, um, But

390
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Speaker 1: this would be type A. But the it's you're identifying

391
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Speaker 1: with your captor, Like you guys are going through this crazy,

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Speaker 1: intense thing together, and you're throwing out the window the

393
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Speaker 1: fact that the captor has started all this and has

394
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Speaker 1: dragged you into it, put your life in jeopardy, and

395
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Speaker 1: now you're friends with this person, and you think that

396
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Speaker 1: if you guys work together, you can get out of

397
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Speaker 1: this mess and maybe like go, you know, live in

398
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Speaker 1: Jamaica and hang out well. And I'm sure that the

399
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Speaker 1: captors at some point over the course of these years

400
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: say things to reinforce that, like you know, what are

401
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: we doing here? Like what's going on? I've kept you

402
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: in this thing, and how look at this mess we

403
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: are in You think, oh, that's I'm just surmising, but yeah,

404
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 1: I think, but I think, well, like saying a bank

405
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: robbery or something. It's like you're you if you have

406
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 1: classic Stockholm syndrome. You're saying, you know, let me talk

407
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 1: to the cops. I'll get us out of here, Like

408
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: I'll tell them that like they got it all wrong

409
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: or something like that. That that level of identifying with

410
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: your captors. Now you're just raised yourself to the same

411
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 1: level as the bank robber as well, which I guess

412
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Speaker 1: probably gives you a little bit of humanity. So the

413
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: prevalence of this stuff is definitely debatable. Um, there's an

414
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Speaker 1: actual database, Chuck called the um Hostage Barricade Database System,

415
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: and it's an FBI database, and it's cases of people

416
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: basically taking hostages and surveying this they found about hostages

417
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: showed no signs whatsoever Stockholm syndro. These kidnappings or hostages

418
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: are both. I would say hostage taking, I believe. UM,

419
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: so that means people do show some affinity, you would

420
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 1: think so. But at the same time you can us

421
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: to say, well, like it's some high percentage of hostage

422
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: taking their domestic disputes, where like you know the person,

423
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Speaker 1: so they already have an affinity for them. If they

424
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: shoot themselves, then you immediately feel bad for that person too,

425
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: So we almost need a set of data just about

426
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,479
Speaker 1: like strangers taking strangers hostage exactly. That would give us

427
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 1: a probably a better view of Stockholm syndrome. That's um

428
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 1: And I think I had a larger point, but I

429
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: don't remember what it was. Oh, I've got it, you're ready.

430
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: So despite the the a lot of law enforcement people

431
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 1: poo pooing the idea of Stockholm syndrome or it's prevalence,

432
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: they do think that there's something to it, and they

433
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: actually hostage negotiators encourage the formation of Stockholm syndrome because

434
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: it keeps the guys alive. Yes, because when you hit

435
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: a certain point where you've got a classical Stockholm syndrome

436
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 1: case going on, but with the hostages identifying with their

437
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 1: captor as a friend, they may turn on the police

438
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: and it may make prosecution even down the road harder

439
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: because the people may refuse to testify. But in the

440
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: short term it can help keep the hostages alive because

441
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: the captor in turn will start to see the hostages

442
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: as human beings, because these are people who are coming

443
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: at them like friends. So what's going on and like,

444
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: what's your first name? And your kids and now the

445
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: idea of executing these people is much more removed. Interesting.

446
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, hostage neghostiators will try to like get the

447
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: whole Stockholm thing going. So now this can live in

448
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: a suite with brainwashing, cults, hostage negotiation and that's probably it, right, amazing.

449
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: It is now a four podcast suite. It is where

450
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: it was previously three. It is. But we're not done yet, No,

451
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 1: we're not. So I guess we should wrap up with

452
00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: Patty Hurst, very famous case of Stockholm syndrome, granddaughter of

453
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: William Randolph. First the newspaper Magnet, was famously kidnapped by

454
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: the Symbionese Liberation Army in the seventies, and uh was

455
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: reportedly abused and and brainwashed to a certain degree and

456
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: ended up sort of joining them in a famous robbery. Yeah,

457
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: she was. She turned into a bank robber, like with

458
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: the bray and the machine gun and the whole deal.

459
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 1: Everyone's seen the photo. But then after she was freed,

460
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 1: she publicly came out against the Symbianese Liberation Army um

461
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: and opposed it, which is unusual for somebody with Stockholm syndrome. Yeah,

462
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: and a lot of people thought maybe she was faking it.

463
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: Maybe she was making it up, but I think the

464
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: consensus now is that she was. Um, it was just

465
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: a survival tactic. Yeah, But for I remember many years though,

466
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: when I was a little kid hearing about this, like, oh,

467
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: some people thought she'd like you said she was. Now

468
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: she's tricking all us. She really did get into it,

469
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: and she's trying to save her bay can. Because look

470
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: at that photo with the machine gun beret. It's pretty

471
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: convincing but definitely interesting. And then it's a Warhol, isn't it.

472
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: Didn't he paint that? Really? I think? So he painted

473
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: up that photo and then he went on to uh

474
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: or she went on to starring John Waters movies. Oddly enough,

475
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: have you seen the thing on the video of vaner

476
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: Herzog like figuring out that John Waters is gay? No,

477
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: it's pretty great. Really, he's talking to people and you know,

478
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: the accent is just what makes it so priceless about

479
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: how you know people are just people to me, I

480
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: don't even think about gayle straight to something and he's

481
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: like I was. I've known John Waters for like twenty something.

482
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: He is and I love him. And I said to

483
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: my wife recently, I said, I think he might be gay,

484
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: and everyone in the room just cracks up. And he

485
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: was just illustrating a point like I just don't even

486
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: see people like that. Never donned on me that John

487
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: Waters was gay. It's pretty funny, all right, That's all

488
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: I got. That's good. If you all learn more about

489
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome. You can type that word into or those

490
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: two words into the search bar at how stiff works

491
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: dot com able to bring up this point article. And

492
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: I said search bar, So that means it's time for melicitor. Male, Josh,

493
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this. I'm a musketeer. Did you read

494
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: this one? No? I missed that. If there's a good one, Uh,

495
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: this guy, all right, I'll just read it. Um, Lauren McNett,

496
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: my father and I are abbot outdoorsman and carry a

497
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: flintlock muzzleloader whenever we can cool. We're also configured, Uh,

498
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: we've configured our flintlocks to be twenty gage shotdowns as well.

499
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: We would be so nervous pulling the trigger. They know

500
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: what we're they're doing, though. Um, we got through the

501
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: same process as the minute man. We load the powder charge,

502
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: load the patch load, the ball charge, the pan cock,

503
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: the hammer got to charge the paint and pull the

504
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: ceterric and finally pull the main trigger, at which point

505
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: the flint and the hammer strikes the frisen, showering the pan.

506
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: Was sparks that ignites the black powder in the pan,

507
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: which is adjacent to the touch hole. This guy's just

508
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: show it all. That in turn ignites the powder charge,

509
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 1: sending the one and eighty grain lead ball out of

510
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: the barrel at about eighteen hundred fifty ft per second,

511
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: which is faster than the speed of sound. Uh. There

512
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: is a difference in that true muskets do not have

513
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: rifled barrels where ours do because it increases accuracy. We've

514
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: been hunting for many years and we aren't anywhere near

515
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: the speed of the minute men, which was three shots

516
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: per minute. Um. We also don't have targets that fire back, obviously,

517
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: but they hunt like bits. They hunt deer, turkey, bear

518
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: and ducks with flintlocks, and it's really challenging and it

519
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: takes careful consideration, special tools and lots and lots of patients.

520
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: One yard shots are possible, but we generally try to

521
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: get within forty yards with the rifles. In twenty arts

522
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: with the shotguns, and he said, can confirm the inclement

523
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: weather does take a toll on the ability to fire,

524
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: even on human days. It can dampen the powder so

525
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: where it will not ignite. And then he just goes

526
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: on to point out that they are uh responsible hunters.

527
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: They typically only get one shot, so they do their

528
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: best to ensure that it is the swiftest, cleanest harvest possible,

529
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: and then they process the animals themselves and waste as

530
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: little as possible as a way of honoring an animal

531
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: and being respectful of natures. So that's Lauren McNett, ps

532
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: keep powder dry. Un let's have t shirts and say

533
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: that thanks lord. Yeah, pretty cool. That is pretty cool. Um,

534
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: we did it for the killing animals part, but I

535
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: get I get it, your hunter. But we did a

536
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,719
Speaker 1: remember the is knife hunting the Fairest Way to hunt? Episode?

537
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: Oh man, that's an old one, it is, but it

538
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: was a good one. Remember we ended up like talking

539
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: about how if a boar comes at you and you

540
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: have a knife and that's it, you're on pretty much

541
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: equal footing. Yeah that's pretty fair. But then or the

542
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: end we started to go off on internet hunting or that. Yeah,

543
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: that was a great episode. Dig that up Everybody's knife

544
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: hunting the fairest way to hunt. That's the only article

545
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: I ever refused to write was the Internet Hunting. Yeah.

546
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: I was a signed that. I was like, I'm not

547
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: gonna write about this. Yeah, good for you. And it

548
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: went away because of that. It did like the next

549
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: day Internet Hunting. Yeah no, um no, but it has

550
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: gone away about that time. They chuck that contributed to

551
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: its device. Um let's see. If you wanted to tell

552
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: us about something, it can be anything, anything at all. Oh,

553
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: if you've ever had Stockholm SI, how about that? Yeah,

554
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: then I would you feel very bad for you. But

555
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: I would like to hear story for sure. For more

556
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, is it how

557
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com