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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. You look back on it,

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Speaker 1: and after you've been to college, you realize that probably

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Speaker 1: wasn't really the most stressful thing that happened in your life.

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Speaker 1: But for many kids that come into college, they realize

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Speaker 1: their life is full of stress. At that moment, it

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Speaker 1: might be the most they've ever experienced. And how do

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Speaker 1: you relieve yourself from that stress? I don't know there's

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Speaker 1: any number of ways that college kids go about that.

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Speaker 1: But at the University of Wisconsin, they've kind of got

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Speaker 1: a unique area there and it's a place of beauty.

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Speaker 1: It's actually a a nature walk. It's called an arboretum,

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Speaker 1: and you can walk through and see all the native

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Speaker 1: species of plants. The walkaway kind of curves through this

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Speaker 1: forested area. Of course, all the plants are labeled and

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing, and it's beautiful, as they say,

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Speaker 1: no matter what time of year you're there. But one morning,

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Speaker 1: the jogger was going through this beautiful nature area at

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Speaker 1: about six thirty in the morning, and if you can

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Speaker 1: imagine this, this individual looked over along the side of

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Speaker 1: this beautiful nature trail he saw two individuals, both with

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Speaker 1: gunshot wants to their heads. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this is Body Bags. Joining me today is Jackie Howard,

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Speaker 1: executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackieget I

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Speaker 1: gotta tell you, I don't know that I've ever been

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Speaker 1: on a walk and have discovered something of this nature.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I've been on a lot of walks

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Speaker 1: as a death investigator, going through the woods and this

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Speaker 1: sort of thing, But just as a random person. Can

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Speaker 1: you imagine the shock and the horror. You're out there

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Speaker 1: to start your day off with a a jog and

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Speaker 1: you know, just at the crack of dawn and you

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Speaker 1: look down and you see two fellow human beings laying

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Speaker 1: alongside the road, apparently slaughtered. It certainly would be a

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Speaker 1: surprise at any time, let alone first thing in the morning,

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Speaker 1: where you think you're setting yourself up for the day.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people use that time as they walked,

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Speaker 1: to meditate and plan their day. But around six thirty

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Speaker 1: in the morning, Dr Beth Potter and her husband, Robin Carry,

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Speaker 1: were discovered laying on the pathway to the Arboretum. Dr

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Speaker 1: Beth worked at the University Health Family Center. She was

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Speaker 1: working on COVID her husband, Robin, was involved in a

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Speaker 1: lot of physical fitness. They had three children, and the

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Speaker 1: morning that they were found, Robin was dead on the scene.

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Speaker 1: Dr Potter was transported to a local hospital and she

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Speaker 1: died there. Dr Potter was in her pajamas, her husband

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Speaker 1: was only in his underwear. So given that nature, it

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Speaker 1: would seem they were forced to leave their home. You bet,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I mentioned this, but the date

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Speaker 1: was March thirtie, Jackie, let me ask you a question.

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Speaker 1: You ever been to Wisconsin and March. I've never been

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Speaker 1: to Wisconsin. Well, you're missing a tree, because I got

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Speaker 1: to tell you, Wisconsin is one of my favorite states.

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Speaker 1: It's absolutely gorgeous. But let me tell you something else

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Speaker 1: about March and Wisconsin. It can be brutal. And the

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Speaker 1: particular morning when they were found, the overnight temps had

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Speaker 1: been in the thirties, which I guess by Wisconsin standards

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Speaker 1: at that time of year. Even though you're you know,

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Speaker 1: you're in the first part of spring, that's still that

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Speaker 1: that's that's kind of warmer than normal. But it's not

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Speaker 1: a location you know, you and be out in the

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Speaker 1: elements like this of your own volition. Robin he was

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Speaker 1: he was only dressed in underwear and can you imagine

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Speaker 1: that that? And that's a good investigative pick up on

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Speaker 1: your part, Jackie, because when you, you you know, you think

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Speaker 1: about contextually, when you look at a body at a scene,

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Speaker 1: particularly the outdoor scene, you think, well, are they closed appropriately,

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Speaker 1: you know, to the circumstances, and of course in this case,

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Speaker 1: they weren't. He's in his underwear. I can't imagine any

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Speaker 1: circumstance under which I would leave my home dressed like

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Speaker 1: that or absent other clothing at that time of year

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Speaker 1: and those kind of temperatures. And then you think about

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Speaker 1: his wife. She was found there in just for Pj's,

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Speaker 1: alongside that pathway, and the way they've kind of described

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Speaker 1: the area where they were found, it's kind of a

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Speaker 1: a ditch. It doesn't sound like a real deep ditch.

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Speaker 1: It just sounds like a little kind of a wash,

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Speaker 1: if you will, where where water just kind of gently

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Speaker 1: drains away through this area. And you begin to think,

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Speaker 1: as an investigator, what would bring two people to this

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Speaker 1: location almost two miles away from their home, which is

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Speaker 1: you know, driven by car, it's not that far, but

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Speaker 1: you know that they probably didn't walk and their car

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Speaker 1: is nowhere to be seen. How did in fact they

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Speaker 1: wind up there? And that probably initially, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you're coming into cold as an investgator, that's gonna be

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Speaker 1: the biggest question, I think, and you have to ask

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Speaker 1: that question and really seek that answer out because I

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Speaker 1: think they're in is. You know, it's going to rest

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Speaker 1: the genesis for the rest of this case. Robin Carry

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Speaker 1: was dead on the scene, but again Beth Potter was

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Speaker 1: taken to a local hospital. Do we know if Carry

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Speaker 1: died because of the gunshot wound or was it exacerbated

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Speaker 1: from the cold temperatures and hypothermia. Again, he was only

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Speaker 1: dressed in underwear. Yeah, well, cold temperatures didn't help. But

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Speaker 1: let me tell you this injury that Robin Carry sustained

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Speaker 1: is absolutely lethal. There were a lot of clues at

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Speaker 1: the scene relative to that that the police really, you know,

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Speaker 1: gave a lot of thought to. In addition to the

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Speaker 1: absence of warm clothing. He was essentially shot in the

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Speaker 1: back of the head, but just off to the left

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Speaker 1: right behind his left ear, if you will, And when

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Speaker 1: that projectile tracked across the interior of his skull, it

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Speaker 1: would leave a path that would essentially go from back

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Speaker 1: to front and from left to right, and so you're

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Speaker 1: essentially cutting across diagonally across the brain, and you have

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Speaker 1: to think that it would track across both hemispheres, both

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Speaker 1: left and the right hemispheres of the brain. And so

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Speaker 1: this is an unsurvivable injury that that he sustained. However,

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Speaker 1: you know his wife that that's a completely separate set

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Speaker 1: to her injuries, because amazingly, and I mean amazingly, she

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Speaker 1: was discovered when they were both discovered, but particularly her,

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Speaker 1: when she was discovered, she still had agonal respirations. That

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Speaker 1: means that she still had a heartbeat, she was taking

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Speaker 1: up oxygen now limited. I can only imagine they're probably

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Speaker 1: very shallow respirations. But they did transport her from the

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Speaker 1: scene and take her into the hospital, and probably what

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Speaker 1: was mentioned earlier about the temp sometimes sometimes there's a

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Speaker 1: level of preservation that goes on the colder it is,

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Speaker 1: and maybe for that moment time she lived simply because

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Speaker 1: it was a bit cooler outside than normal. I have

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Speaker 1: two questions, shop. You said Dr Potter still had agonal respirations,

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Speaker 1: So was that truly given that she was shot in

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Speaker 1: the head. Wasn't she still breathing or is that more

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Speaker 1: of an autonomic response where the body is continuing its

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Speaker 1: normal functions. That's an excellent question, and you know, you

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Speaker 1: can really only get into that once you get actually

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Speaker 1: into the autopsy to determine the extent of the damage.

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Speaker 1: My suspicion is that in Robin's case, the trauma was

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Speaker 1: so extensive and he was just in an unrecoverable flat

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Speaker 1: span at that point, you know, and it was probably

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Speaker 1: relatively instantaneous, I would imagine, for him, but for her. Interestingly,

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Speaker 1: he was shot on the left side, and if I

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Speaker 1: remember correctly, her gunshot wound was more on the right

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Speaker 1: side of her head, and I don't know that the

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Speaker 1: trajectory was the same. And you know, people would say, well,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean by that, Well, depended upon the

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Speaker 1: direction of the travel of the bullet itself. You have

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Speaker 1: to begin at autopsy, and particularly you have to begin

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Speaker 1: to try to appreciate what vital areas of the brain.

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Speaker 1: Now that there are certain traumas that your brain you know,

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Speaker 1: can sustain and they are completely survivable. And there's any

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Speaker 1: number of stories you know that are out there in literature.

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Speaker 1: I think probably famously is this kind of anecdotal story

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Speaker 1: about how the idea of a lobotomy came about. And

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Speaker 1: you know this, this fellow back in the eighteen mid

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds was standing in adjacent to a mining area

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Speaker 1: in a big metal bar was sent skyward as a

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Speaker 1: result of an explosion and when it came down, it

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Speaker 1: actually pierced the frontal area of his brain and they

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Speaker 1: had to extract this thing, but it only involved his

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Speaker 1: frontal lobes and after that he became very docile. Well

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Speaker 1: that's a traumatic brain injury back then, and he survived that.

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Speaker 1: You can survive a brain injury, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: it is going to be depended upon what areas of

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Speaker 1: the brain are penetrated. That's just exactly what I was

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Speaker 1: going to ask you. It's like, once again like you're

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Speaker 1: reading my mind, because I was going to ask does

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Speaker 1: it make a difference because you said he was shot

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Speaker 1: behind his ear, So does it make a difference where

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Speaker 1: you're shot depending up on your survivability? Oh? Yeah, most definitely.

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Speaker 1: Love to you know, give this kind of tactile demonstration

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Speaker 1: to folks in class. I tell my students to take

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Speaker 1: their index finger essentially and find the you know, find

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Speaker 1: the big Knight on the back of their skull and

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Speaker 1: run inferior to that big knot, you know, the anatomus

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Speaker 1: called the occipital protuberance. You go below that and you

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Speaker 1: start to get into that area that does control the

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Speaker 1: autonomic nervous system down towards the brain stem. And when

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Speaker 1: that area is traumatized, you know, you can almost bet

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Speaker 1: your bottom dollar that you're gonna shut down everything from

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Speaker 1: heart function to lung function and all those sorts of things,

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Speaker 1: getting into that kind of primal brain area that controls

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Speaker 1: those things that we don't normally think about having, you know,

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Speaker 1: you think about having to breathe. You don't think about

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Speaker 1: your heart beating, you know. And then you have higher

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Speaker 1: functions that are involved in either the lobes kind of

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Speaker 1: higher up and forward and that sort of things. And

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Speaker 1: sometimes depended upon what kind of treatment you get, those

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Speaker 1: events are survivable. And it would appear or that the

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Speaker 1: doctor survived for some time out there now precisely when

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Speaker 1: it's you know, I can't give you an exact time,

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Speaker 1: but she lived long enough that they did what's called

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Speaker 1: running a code, that ran a code on her from

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Speaker 1: the scene where she was extricated from uh there in

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Speaker 1: the nature area to the local hospital, and of course

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Speaker 1: it was awful, not because she died in the emergency.

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Speaker 1: You begin to think about your you know, you want

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Speaker 1: this place a piece that you can go to and

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Speaker 1: and probably walked around, uh, the entire time you've been

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Speaker 1: living in a location, it's probably a place that you

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Speaker 1: have fond memories of. I can't imagine that either one

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Speaker 1: of these two victims could, in their wildest, wildest dreams

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Speaker 1: ever imagined that their lives were essentially going to end

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Speaker 1: there in that beautiful nature preserve. Well, that sets me

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Speaker 1: up for a great question. You said their lives are

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Speaker 1: going to end there. We suppose that they were forced

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Speaker 1: from their home at gunpoint because they were shot. How

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Speaker 1: do we know that they were killed on the pathway.

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Speaker 1: When the investigators were processing the scene, one of the

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Speaker 1: things that kind of really stood out to them, other

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Speaker 1: than the fact that you've got people that are very

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Speaker 1: poorly clothed for this time of the year, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that really stood out to them was what

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Speaker 1: appeared to be the underlying volume of blood that had

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Speaker 1: pooled beneath the bodies. First, you know, Robin remained there

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Speaker 1: and he's kind of the benchmark because his body was

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Speaker 1: not removed from that location. Out with Beth Potter, she

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Speaker 1: was removed, so anything that had any blood that had

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Speaker 1: issued for them from her body was just essentially there

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Speaker 1: as a pool that was without her body to be

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Speaker 1: observed in context with it. But when they began to

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Speaker 1: look at Robin's body, they began to appreciate the blood

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Speaker 1: spatter patterns that were on him and adjacent to the

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Speaker 1: area around his body, in addition to the blood that

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Speaker 1: had pulled. And I don't know that folks really think

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Speaker 1: about this very often, but just in your life, just

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Speaker 1: think about any time you've sustained some kind of open

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Speaker 1: head injury, and it can not just be your scalp,

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Speaker 1: but even your nose. If you if you catch a

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Speaker 1: bloody nose or maybe perhaps have sustained some kind of

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Speaker 1: blunt force trauma to the scalp where you've you know,

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Speaker 1: you've nicked your scalp in some way, you bleed profusely.

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Speaker 1: And one of the reasons is is that your head

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Speaker 1: is arguably one of the most vascular areas of your body.

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Speaker 1: So when trauma is sustained there, you're going to have

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Speaker 1: a huge volume, huge volume of blood that will issue

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Speaker 1: forth from any kind of injury, and sometimes when you

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Speaker 1: see those the amount of blood comes out, you automatically

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Speaker 1: think that it's a very nasty injury, and that's not

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Speaker 1: always the case. It's just that there's so much blood

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Speaker 1: that's constantly circulating through that area that the slightest little

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Speaker 1: nick can turn into something major as far as a

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Speaker 1: you know, an issue of blood. But in this case,

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Speaker 1: what they surmised was this they knew because they were

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Speaker 1: not bearing witness to any kind of drag marks, they

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Speaker 1: didn't see any kind of blood staining that had criss

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Speaker 1: crossed over that pathway leading up to where their bodies

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Speaker 1: were found, that everything relative to blood evidence was contained

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Speaker 1: in that specific area. And when you take that, you

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Speaker 1: look at that, you think of that snapshot in your mind,

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Speaker 1: you have to come to the conclusion, well, they were

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Speaker 1: traumatized specifically in that location, that it wasn't something that

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Speaker 1: perhaps happened in their home, that it happened up the

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Speaker 1: path some distance or in the parking lot to get

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Speaker 1: access to the nature area, that it had actually happened there.

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Speaker 1: Because it's not just the pooling of blood. We think

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Speaker 1: about these dynamic patterns and when you think about gunshot wounds.

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Speaker 1: We get into this area of velocity, you know, the

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Speaker 1: velocity that that round comes out at the end of

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Speaker 1: that muzzle, and it generates a high velocity pattern when

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Speaker 1: it comes out, and that means that the tiniest of

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Speaker 1: droplets that can essentially be created are created because of

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Speaker 1: the high velocity of the round that you're struck with,

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Speaker 1: and then concurrently, the blood that comes out of that

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Speaker 1: the droplets are tinier. Say, for instance, if someone we're

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Speaker 1: struck with a blunt object like a baseball, bat or

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Speaker 1: hammer or whatever the case might be, you might think

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Speaker 1: that you're hitting them hard. But you cannot strike an

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Speaker 1: individual and generate the same velocity with a bad or

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Speaker 1: a hammer or you know whatever, a lead pipe as

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Speaker 1: you can when that lead core projectile strikes that skull

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Speaker 1: and this explosion occurs, and these tiny, tiny little troplets

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Speaker 1: of blood issue forth from there. Given the cooler temperatures,

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Speaker 1: as you pointed out it was early morning March Wisconsin,

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Speaker 1: would the cooler temperatures affect how much blood pulled out

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Speaker 1: of the body, or the texture and the thickness of

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Speaker 1: the blood as it pulled, and the shape and the

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Speaker 1: way that it would flow out of the body. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I suppose that it could. Now in the short term. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: when you're thinking about the immediate event, that immediate traumatic event,

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Speaker 1: it's the blood is going to issue forth at the

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Speaker 1: same rate as it would in any other circumstances, and

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Speaker 1: you know the first few minutes, okay, particularly at the

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Speaker 1: initial impact. But I suppose, I suppose that it's within

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Speaker 1: the realm of possibility that things would begin to slow down.

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Speaker 1: And you have to keep in mind that though it

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Speaker 1: is a liquid, it is the component liquid. It's a

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Speaker 1: liquid that's composed of many parts. And you know, everybody's

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Speaker 1: handled their own blood at some point in time, and

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Speaker 1: you know that that there is attackinus to it. That

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Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like water, you know. And again, you know,

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Speaker 1: our ancestors had it right, you know when they said

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Speaker 1: blood is thicker than water, and there's there's truth in that,

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Speaker 1: and that thickness is actually something that you refer to

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Speaker 1: as a viscosity. You hear this many times in association

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Speaker 1: with motor oil. You know, they talk about the viscosity

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Speaker 1: of oil and that goes to the thickness of the substance.

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Speaker 1: And so, yeah, blood has got a viscosity that's certainly

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Speaker 1: different than say, for instance, of water. But you know,

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Speaker 1: you begin to think about it, does it have a

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Speaker 1: consistency that say, comparatable to maybe a syrup, like a

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Speaker 1: clear corn syrup. Yeah. Perhaps a matter of fact, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's several recipes out there for making fake blood where

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Speaker 1: they're using a corn syrup in order as an initiator,

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Speaker 1: in order to create those patterns you know that we

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Speaker 1: work with in the lab and teach students with that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. Cool weather could slow it down to

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Speaker 1: a certain degree. And it's certainly I think at least

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Speaker 1: combined with the location of the gunshot relative to Doc

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Speaker 1: Potter's injuries and maybe a relative to the ambient environmental temperature,

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Speaker 1: that contributed to the fact that she survived certainly survived

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Speaker 1: longer than Robin. Robin probably died pretty much instantaneously. Also

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Speaker 1: at the scene there were shell casings found. What did

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Speaker 1: that tell us? Yeah, I was really surprised when I

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Speaker 1: found out what type of ammunition was used, you know,

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Speaker 1: And this kind of came out in the news following

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Speaker 1: the investigation of the scene and the police work in

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Speaker 1: this case. There had been some thought given some social

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Speaker 1: media history that was out there that perhaps a clock

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Speaker 1: firearm was used in this case. And what was what

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Speaker 1: came into focus here was that the ammunition that was

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Speaker 1: found out there is not something that's quite typical. You know,

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Speaker 1: you think about things like nine millimeter, forty caliber, forty

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Speaker 1: five caliber, even maybe for some people ten millimeter. They

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Speaker 1: actually found sig sour three fifty seven rounds spent casings

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Speaker 1: out there. And you may have heard of a three

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Speaker 1: fifty seven before, you know, for those that they're listening,

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Speaker 1: A three fifty seven traditionally has always been associated with

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Speaker 1: the revolver, very powerful revolver that was popular with police officers.

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Speaker 1: Certainly back in the seventies and into the eighties when

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Speaker 1: police were still carrying revolvers, three seven was very common.

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Speaker 1: But that's a bit of ammo that's used for revolvers. However,

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Speaker 1: in this case, they recovered SIG three fifty seven munition

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Speaker 1: that is made for a semi auto. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying that it's it's exotic, Okay, This is not something

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Speaker 1: that somebody's cooked up in their basement or something that

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Speaker 1: you know, you had to order and you know, we

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Speaker 1: take forever and ever to get in and you can

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Speaker 1: buy it through retailers. It's just that it's it's not

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Speaker 1: your standard fare. You know, when you begin to think

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Speaker 1: about what somebody's weapon and ammo choice might be. So

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Speaker 1: what does that mean for the investigators? Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: for them, this begins to really narrow down the field

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Speaker 1: because you know, you begin to think about, well, how

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Speaker 1: many nine millimeter pistols you know are out there? How

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00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 1: many forty caliber pistols are out there? Well, there's there's

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Speaker 1: a lot. I mean they're everywhere, you know, they're all

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Speaker 1: over the place. Our military has carried nine millimeter side

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Speaker 1: arms forever and ever so of our police officers. So

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Speaker 1: it's it's not an uncommon round for an investigator. When

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Speaker 1: you get a piece of evidence like a three fifty

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00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,359
Speaker 1: seven sick, well, that narrows the focus now and you

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Speaker 1: can again to kind of look at things like, well,

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Speaker 1: who may have purchased three seven a weapon that's chambered

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Speaker 1: for three seven, and who may have purchased ammunition that

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00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 1: would marry up with that particular weapon, And suddenly your

347
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 1: choices become very slim at that point. And that's from

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Speaker 1: an investigative standpoint. That's a home run three or four

349
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:30,240
Speaker 1: shell casings were found by police nearby, and the individuals

350
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Speaker 1: the runners who discovered the body talk about there being

351
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Speaker 1: a large amount of blood covering Potter's pajamas, that her

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00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 1: breath was faint and her pulse was fragile, and as

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Speaker 1: the person who found them stepped away to be able

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Speaker 1: to call nine one one to get help, Potter raised

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Speaker 1: her arm. So what's the possibility would she have been

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Speaker 1: in and out of consciousness all night long? Or do

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Speaker 1: we think that she probably late there figuring out how

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Speaker 1: are we going to get help? Wow? What a horrible

359
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 1: thought that is. You know that that you would consider

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Speaker 1: that that this poor woman who has been gunned down

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Speaker 1: is immobile, She's incapable of moving. I don't even know

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Speaker 1: that she would have had the ability to even understand

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Speaker 1: at that point that her husband was lying there not

364
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Speaker 1: too far away from her deceased. You know, you start

365
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Speaker 1: to think about higher brain function at that time, what's

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Speaker 1: the level of awareness that sort of thing is. Obviously

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Speaker 1: she had enough brain activity so that she, as I

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Speaker 1: said earlier, you know, she had these kind of agonal respirations,

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Speaker 1: shallow breathing that's sort of thing, faint heartbeat, and you

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Speaker 1: know her respirations, and that means that there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of effort probably being put in relative to her body

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Speaker 1: in order to uptake oxygen. It's really difficult to say

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Speaker 1: if if she had that kind of awareness at that level,

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Speaker 1: you know, being able to think these things through. One

375
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 1: of the things that you look for, had a scene

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Speaker 1: relative to the disease. You know, we talked about some

377
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Speaker 1: of the blood evidence, and I think that one of

378
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 1: the other things that comes along. It's a horrible thing

379
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 1: to think about it, but it is something that we consider.

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Speaker 1: Is there evidence that of their own volition, perhaps that

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Speaker 1: the victim had moved about in the throes of death

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Speaker 1: if you will, where they're kind of thrashing about. Sometimes

383
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Speaker 1: you'll see this where their hands will scrape dirt or

384
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: their arms will scrape back and forth. Famously, you know,

385
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Speaker 1: people will claw the earth when they're in excruciating pain

386
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Speaker 1: or they're trying to become mobile again. If you will,

387
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: you'll get dirt beneath the fingernails. And it's not always

388
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Speaker 1: associated with a struggle. It's like a one on one

389
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 1: person to person struggle. Sometimes it's associated with just this

390
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: will to want to live, and some of those findings

391
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 1: can be quite horrific. I've been on scenes before where

392
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 1: individuals have kind of clawed at the walls while they're

393
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,919
Speaker 1: covered in blood after they've been attacked, and has had

394
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the attack itself. In the throes

395
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 1: of the attack when they were say they're knives or shot,

396
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: It had to do with them just trying to survive,

397
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: and that would be something that the investigators would have

398
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 1: to surmise. Now, obviously, in in Robin's case, it appears

399
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 1: that he died rather suddenly. You know that he died there,

400
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: But it would be very interesting to go back and

401
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: look at those areas where as the doctor lay and

402
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: if you have these kind of scrubbed out areas where

403
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: her arms had moved back and forth, legs maybe thrashing

404
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: about and this with a lot of disruption of that

405
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: kind of the earth beneath her, and that that would

406
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,120
Speaker 1: take time for that to occur. Was there evidence of that?

407
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: And again, you know, you say, well, what does that

408
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: mean for us as investigators? That does that bear any significance? Yeah, yeah,

409
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: of course it does, because when you take a case

410
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 1: like this to trial, it shows how brutal this event

411
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: was and how cold hearted it was that you would

412
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: not only take this poor woman out there in her

413
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: pajamas in the middle of a cold, cold night and

414
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: then desperately injure her like this and leave her there

415
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: to suffer all night long. Again, that goes to a

416
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 1: very callousness I think on the part of Tray, Dr

417
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 1: Beth Potter and Robin Carey, who would want to end

418
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: their lives? I don't understand that, And I think that

419
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: was a big question because both of these people you're

420
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: talking about giving back to a community, to this place

421
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: that they lived in. These two were famous locally for

422
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 1: helping and having big hearts, and I think that sometimes

423
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: the people that are the kindest attract some of the

424
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 1: must wicked people out there. The search turned to a suspect.

425
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: Police began to do the recond order as they normally do,

426
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: checking close to the family first. They began to check

427
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: video in and around the home. They began to check

428
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: cell phone records. So as the search began, Joe, what

429
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: did we see happening? Most homicides, when they occur, they

430
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: don't they don't occur in some kind of vacuum. You know,

431
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 1: everybody's afraid of strangers. Stranger on stranger crime they talked about,

432
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: and it does happen, Don't get me wrong, it happens

433
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: every day. But the lines fare of these cases for

434
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: investigators are going to come back to that small, tiny

435
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: circle that you've created, and I think probably for the police,

436
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: you know, when they began to look into this, they

437
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 1: want to know who occupies the same space with the

438
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: two victims. And number one at the top of the

439
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: list was going to be their daughter, who went by

440
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 1: the name Miriam. That's her given name, but they called her.

441
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: Everybody called her Mimi. And she's rather young, she's teen,

442
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: and she was living in their home along with their boyfriend.

443
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: And this young man had been taken in kindly by

444
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: her parents, allowed to stay there. And this young man,

445
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: who went by the name Cary Sandford, was classmates with

446
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: their daughter. But we have to put this in context,

447
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: all right. When this case Kurt, which was in we

448
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:59,479
Speaker 1: were creeping as a nation up into you know, those

449
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: we were passing through that very scary time in the

450
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 1: country where people were social distancing, people were being told

451
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 1: to stay apart. Where you didn't know anything about this virus,

452
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: this coronavirus. You had no idea how it was going

453
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: to impact anybody. And Dr Potter herself had health issues.

454
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: Now keep in mind, she's a health care provider, so

455
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: she's gonna be hyper sensitive to this. She was seeing

456
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: people in her clinic that she was treating, and I'm

457
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: sure that many people were coming in there were, you know,

458
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: presenting with COVID symptomology. And she's on medication that personally

459
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: put her at risk for not just contracting the virus,

460
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: but if she did contract it a weakened immune system,

461
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: it could really cause her to go downhill fast. And

462
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: so when you're living in close quarters to somebody, you

463
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: have a perceived danger of what could be going on

464
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: around you. And so with her, her and her husband

465
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: were practicing social distancing within their home. I think they

466
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: were probably staying away from people as much as they could.

467
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: But her daughter and her boyfriend, who again had been

468
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: allowed to live in their home, refused to comply. They

469
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: absolutely refused to comply with the rules of the house.

470
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: And there was a lot of tension in this home.

471
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: There was angry fights over it, refusal to comply, and

472
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: you know, Dr Potter was no fool, you know, she

473
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: knew what kind of risk existed out there. If you're

474
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: going outside the home, you could bring something back in

475
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you know, she's looking

476
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: at being deathly ill, and perhaps her husband as well,

477
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: and I guess the rest of their family could be too,

478
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: But these two would not comply. But going back to

479
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: this idea of how kind hearted they were, they actually

480
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: arranged to have their daughter and her boyfriend live in

481
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: an Airbnb for which they were going to pay for.

482
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: They were just kind to fault in essence. That may

483
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: have been part of the problem. Besides the physical evidence

484
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: that was found at the scene. One of the things

485
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: that we talked about a lot is the fact that

486
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: people who tend to be criminal or take part in

487
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: criminal behavior cannot keep their mouth shut. Sanford began talking

488
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: with friends. Sanford is quoted as saying, once he found

489
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: out that one of the victims was at the hospital

490
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: and still alive, he reportedly said, I shot them. I know,

491
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: I know, I shot them. So how much does here

492
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: say play and how much weight does it have in

493
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: a court of law? Well, first off, let's look at

494
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: it from an investigative standpoint. You know, being now on

495
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: the street as an investigator, that ain't a court all right,

496
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: because you're always looking for leads and so and leads

497
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: that you pick up on. Would you know those beautiful

498
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: oaken walls that we see, Uh, you know it's played

499
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: on television and courtrooms. You know that idea of hearsay

500
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: is real and you have to play by those rules.

501
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: But on the street, you look for leads, and you know,

502
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: as an investigator, when you're part of that community and

503
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: you've got two of the most upstanding citizens around that

504
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: are found both shot in the head and left like

505
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: animals dead, are four dead essentially out in the wilds

506
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: during this cold early spring, You've got a lot of

507
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: scared people on your ends. And so there's an urgency

508
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: to this to try to get this solved because you're

509
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: thinking about, you know, what in the world is going

510
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: on here? Why would somebody just target people? And then

511
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: so when you begin to hear these conversations that are

512
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: popping up, because you know, you have to keep in

513
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: mind that it's not just about the investigators going to

514
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: one individual in questioning them and then they're calling it

515
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: done that it's not the way it happens. Remember how

516
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: I talked about that kind of circle, that intimate circle

517
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: that people have. Everybody that the police can track down

518
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: within that intimate circle are going to be asked questions.

519
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: And if somebody has loose lips that has direct knowledge

520
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: that a crime has been committed, I can guarantee you,

521
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: even if it comes from a second or third party,

522
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: those individuals are going to be pressed. They're going to

523
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: be pressed hard by investigators, you know. And of course

524
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: they can invoke their Fifth Amendment rights if they so

525
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: choose to. And interestingly enough, now that I've mentioned Fifth

526
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: Amendment rights, their daughter, their own very daughter, their precious Mimi,

527
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: during the course of this actually invoked her Fifth Amendment rights.

528
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: And so anytime you hear that when you're conducting an investigation,

529
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: it's going to make you might not compress that individual

530
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: any further because they have said, look, I don't want

531
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: to say anything else without the presence of an attorney. Okay,

532
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: that's fine. You know, you allow them to get their attorney,

533
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: and they can talk to their attorney until they're blew

534
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: in the face and all that sort of thing. You're

535
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: not going to talk to them directly any longer. But

536
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: at that point in time, you now are armed with

537
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: the information that for some reason, this person feels very

538
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: uncomfortable talking about these homicides, the death of her parents.

539
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: You start pressing on the periphery, and when you do that,

540
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: other information pops up. That relationship that Cary Sandford had

541
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: with Mimi. One of the comments that repeatedly has been

542
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: said by people who knew Cary Sanford classmates is that

543
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: he was excited and talked about bands of money. That

544
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: reportedly Beth Potter and Robin carry had classmates told investigators

545
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: that a discussion was overheard between the victim's daughter and

546
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: Sandford in a class that her parents had quote bands

547
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: of money and that they were rich. The root of

548
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: all evil here, you know, you begin to think about

549
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: that and the fact that I think that one of

550
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: the things that resonated with me was that witnesses had

551
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 1: actually witnessed this young man become excited, you know, and

552
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 1: and some of the descriptions I've read it, it almost

553
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: seems like he was vibrating, you know, with joy over

554
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 1: the fact that his girlfriend, and of course it their daughter,

555
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: had spoke to him about their wealth and she described

556
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: their wealth in terms of bands of cash. And I

557
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: can only imagine that what she was referring to or

558
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: stacks of cash maybe that they had on hand that

559
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: were wrapped in paper wrappers, you know, much like you

560
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 1: get denominational rappers that you get from from the bank,

561
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: and they had those on hand. Now, there's certainly no

562
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: evidence I don't think at least that has really come

563
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: out that that this was taken. And we do know

564
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: that they went back to the scene after this had occurred,

565
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: you know, when they were removed from their home um

566
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: And it's chilling when you begin to think about it

567
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: that this may have been of motivation. And I think

568
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: the greater part of this is that you've got a

569
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: young man who, according to everyone around, was involved in

570
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: all this, you know, kind of civic service around, involved

571
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: in various groups and organizing basketball games for charity. He

572
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: had his picture made with the city's mayor, and you know,

573
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: all of this stuff that had kind of come to

574
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 1: the surface about him. But then you begin to see

575
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: kind of the evil that dwelled him. There are screenshots

576
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: from social media accounts with him holding what appears to

577
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 1: be a semi automatic handgun and pointing it directly at

578
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: a camera and him looking over the rear sights of

579
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 1: the thing and kind of gazing into the cameras you stare,

580
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: you know, if you're the viewer of this thing, you're

581
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: staring right now the muzzle of the weapon. So you

582
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: get an idea that there's something deeper than what was

583
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: being presented, you know, to the public, and that he

584
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: had fooled. He had fooled this poor couple that had

585
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: literally taken him in, had taken him in under their wing,

586
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: had given him shelter, had given him food, place to live,

587
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: allowed him to live with their daughter in their own

588
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,959
Speaker 1: area of the home, and then when Tom's got tough,

589
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: actually provided a location that they could go to an

590
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 1: airbnb that they were going to set them up with,

591
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: and then allow them to use their own vehicle to

592
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,760
Speaker 1: drive about in for a time. Again, it just absolutely

593
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: breaks the heart. This is such a senseless, senseless killing.

594
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 1: Cory Sandford was convicted in the kidnapping and killing of

595
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: Dr Beth Potter and her husband, Robin Cary. He was

596
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: sentenced to mandatory life in prison without the possibility of parole.

597
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this his body bags