WEBVTT - Heavy Transport Maps Out a Low-Carbon Future 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.800 This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:07.480 the BNF podcast, and today we bring you a recording 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:09.880 from our summit in London, which took place on the 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:13.039 eighth and ninth of October. The panel featured on today's 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:17.120 show is titled Cleaning Up Heavy Transport. So while electrification 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:20.080 has been well established in other parts of the transport 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:23.480 sector like passenger vehicles, there are some limits to how 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:27.000 far the technology can reach, and heavy transport is one 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:30.600 of the tougher ones for it to decarbonize. Cleaning up aviation, 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:34.920 maritime shipping, and long haul trucking will likely require clean 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:39.839 fuels like biofuels, resulting in sustainable aviation fuels or saff 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:44.800 for short or ammonia methanol and synthetic fuels. This variety 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:47.440 of options gives us a lot of pathways to a 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:50.879 lower carbon heavy transport sector, but it's also with its 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:55.720 own challenges, including elevated prices and some confusion among investors 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:59.040 as they struggle to understand exactly which technologies they should 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:01.160 be putting their money behind. So with all of this 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.040 to consider, the panelists you'll hear from on this recording 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.959 explore which clean fuels are currently seeing the greatest uptake 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:12.160 and whether existing government policy is extensive enough and clear 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:15.880 enough to support growth in the sector. They also discuss 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.000 what feedback they have been receiving from investors, and this 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:22.680 results in some suggestions on how to stimulate growth across 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:26.200 the wider sector. You'll hear from Freya Burton, chief sustainability 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:29.680 Officer at Lanztech, Chris Johnson, chief commercial officer at C 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:34.320 two X, and Lara Nashquinbondi, chief executive officer at ET Fuels. 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:38.160 The panel was moderated by Colin mccherricer Bloomberg, nef's head 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:43.080 of Transport and Energy Storage. For more information regarding BNF's summits, 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:46.760 including our upcoming BNF Summit taking place in Shanghai on 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.200 the third and fourth of December, and to view recordings 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:52.680 from this and other events in the past, head to 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:57.920 about dot BNF dot com forward Slash Summit. Now let's 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.120 hear from our panel on cleaning up heavy trains and 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:02.160 sport from the BNF Summit, London. 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:14.440 We've heard a little bit about clean fuels and shipping 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.360 in aviation throughout the session so far, but we're going 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:19.720 to get a little further into it right now, and 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:23.320 just to kind of set the scene. Right now, both 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:25.480 shipping and aviation are around two and a half percent 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:28.160 of global CEO two emissions, but that share is set 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:30.600 to rise, depending on the forecast to use maybe double 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:34.320 over the next ten or twenty years. Right now, aviation 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:37.440 uses about ninety three billion gallons of jet fuel a year, 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:40.760 and three hundred and twenty million of that is saf 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.240 so less than zero point five percent. On the shipping side, 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.640 eighty four billion gallons of marine fuel used and for 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.000 low carbon fuels, and that's being a bit generous with 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.480 the definitions. It's about one hundred and thirty million gallons, 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:54.959 so less than zero point two percent. So a lot 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:58.079 of work to do, but luckily there's a lot of 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.000 people on the case. So I want to ask, as 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:03.760 a sort of opener to each of you, where you're 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:08.799 seeing the most activity, interest uptake on the clean fuel side. 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:10.359 So Laura will start with you. 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:15.320 Sure, well, it feels like a kind of funny time. 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:19.000 So by way of background, we co founded ety fuel's 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:21.639 green fuels developer a couple of years ago, and I 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:24.880 remember when we did that, there was this huge buzz 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:27.640 around hydrogen you know, we like to say that we 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.160 co founded the company the day that Merce could come 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.200 out with this big announcement, And there were all these 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:37.000 projects and it was just this really exciting, optimistic time 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:40.320 in the hydrogen space. And I think sort of two 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:45.000 and a half years on, i'm much aged. But beyond that, 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:48.480 I think on the supply side, you've seen a real shakeout. 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:52.560 So you know, we as a developer would often get 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:54.640 other developers coming to us saying, do you want to 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.360 partner up or co invest or whatever. And I'd look 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:00.360 at the projects and you'd see that someone maybe done 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:03.160 an engineering study, or they got an option over a 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.000 field that happened to be a bit sunny, but the. 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:07.000 Projects were not robust. 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.680 You know, the feedstock hadn't been secured, maybe the engineering 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.280 hadn't been done at all, the TRL of the technology 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:15.440 was a bit dodgy. But there was just this huge 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.120 hype that was kind of providing this wave to all 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:19.640 these on the supply side. And I think what you're 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.560 seeing now is two years on, maybe people have got 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:24.680 a bit of seed funding, but that's run out, and 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:26.280 so you're really just seeing a bit of the wheat 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:30.160 separating from the chaff on the supply side. On the 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:34.920 demand side, it's also quite different. So obviously we're targeting 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:39.040 the marine sector and a lot of discussion around, you know, 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:42.400 demand signals, is anyone going to buy the fuel. The 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:47.240 conversations that we're having, though are really also quite different 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:49.720 to where they were two years ago. So whereas two 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.480 years ago people were talking about, you know, I want 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:54.960 to buy my green fuels, and the way I'll price 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.160 them will be here's how much I play for a 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.360 heavy fuel oil, and then I'll pay a bit for EUETS, 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:00.880 and then I'll pay for debucks more just to be 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:05.280 a good citizen. Right now, the conversations are either one 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:09.080 of two one type of conversation with that let's just 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:12.520 call them less sophisticated or less resource shipping companies. Is 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:15.760 I'm dealing with the eu ETS, I'm being told it's 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:18.640 leg it's biofuels, it's e methanol, it's ammonia. I have 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:21.039 no idea what's going on, and quite frankly, it doesn't matter. 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:25.120 I'll wait until twenty thirty somebody will figure out nuclear fusion. 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:27.400 I'll be fine, and anyway, I'll just pass the whole 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:29.680 thing onto my end customer. It's the one size fits 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:32.920 or tax. We'll all deal with it together. The more 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:37.679 sophisticated are doing a few things, so they are running 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:42.200 the maths on fuel EU, which is bloody complicated regulation 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.880 but actually does some amazing things to incentivize e fuels. 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:47.000 So they're running the mass on that. 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.200 They are waiting for IMO, and they are looking, at 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:55.400 least in our space around this shortage of fuel supply 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:58.120 where some people have done the maths on the lack 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:02.279 of biofuels have not, and they are thinking about how 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:04.680 they're going to secure their supply. But everyone's still kind 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:06.719 of waiting because we haven't quite got there yet on IMO. 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:08.240 So it's kind of a funny time. 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.160 So those are quite big shifts on both the supply 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:13.960 and demand picture. Chris, does that kind of line up 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:14.719 with what you're seeing. 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:18.760 I think there's a consistency of you there. But first 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:20.920 of all, thank you for the opportunity to be here, 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.480 particularly as a very young company. 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:25.080 We might be a young company. 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.200 C two x our roots and is a company with 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.320 one hundred and twenty year history, and that's mrsk On 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:32.760 the shipping company. 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:34.080 You know. 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:38.920 Interestingly, we heard yesterday afternoon and one of the panels 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:40.840 you're talking about, you know, a lot of it is 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:45.839 driven by supply. We're very much as a company. It 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.760 came from the demand musk. We're making the commitments to 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.599 to green methanol container vessels and needed to assure that 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:58.240 the supply was in place. And you know we were 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.760 spun out about a year ago is away per by 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.800 ap Mala Holdings and twenty percent now a ap mil 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:09.680 a MRSK. But being driven actually by a customer on 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:11.600 setting this up. It meant we were coming in at 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:15.000 this technology agnostic. So you know, there's a lot of 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:16.760 work being done over the last year or two to 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:21.040 try and think through the most competitive pathways to producing 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.880 green methanol. And I think for me that's really where 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:28.240 the interest is in particular, you know, Lara's describing the 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.040 more sophisticated customers who are really beginning to understand this 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:34.800 is we need to demonstrate we can be competitive, and 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:37.240 we're driven by one of our chahlders is very focused 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.360 on that this is a highly competitive industry. Someone was 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:42.400 saying to me yesterday pointing out they're harder to debate 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.000 sexors are those with some of the thinnest margins and 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:49.720 the customers are very sensitive and authorship shift a container 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:53.800 from one shipping line to another if those rates change, 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.680 so they're very cost focus. So we had to make 0:07:56.680 --> 0:08:00.320 sure we were building the most competitive pathways. So that's 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.120 what we're getting in our interests is by demonstrating that 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:06.360 we do have those pathways. Now we've gone down a 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.720 route initially, we've we've got three projects Egypt, Spain, but 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.960 our focus at the moment is on us and looking 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:16.000 at the gasification of biomass, which we see as being 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.960 one of the best pathways. It's a well proven technology 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:22.440 in other services and we are now seeing some of 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:26.040 the cost space to produce methanol that way. Now, the 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.440 interesting thing is we look at it. We've gone for methanol. 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:31.400 It is driven by shipping and that's where a lot 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:35.200 of the conversation is today. But methanol has a big advantage. 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:37.600 It is a pathway whether it's into the chemical sectors, 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:40.560 and we do expect it in a similar way for 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:44.120 sort of landstect to play into the sustainable aviation fuels 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.000 on the methanol to jet in a later stage. But 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:50.679 the conversation as well, we're having this, how do you 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:52.240 get these projects off the ground? How do you get 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:54.440 these commitments of the ground, Because all of these projects 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.000 depend on long term commitments. 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:01.280 So a lot of our conversation on where's the right right. 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.400 Price point to actually make those commitments, which is going 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.400 to get those projects off the ground and get those 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:10.120 products off the ground at scale because scale is going 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:12.040 to be important to keep in those costloads. There's a 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:17.000 real sort of tension here to actually to originate those projects. 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:18.960 So yeah, even when you feel like you've identified the 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.800 right pathway, that that's only the start of the journey, 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.160 and it's a start, yeah for it. I want to 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.280 come to you on that. What are you seeing right now? 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.840 Well, I think one of the things too, I'm sort 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:31.920 of reflecting back what it was like sort of ten 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:35.040 plus years ago and what it's like today. And I 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.800 think back to some events where they were investors coming 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.959 to see technology producers and we literally had to bribe 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:44.520 people to come into the room who were doing fuels 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:48.640 because everyone wanted to talk about solar and wind. Nobody 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:51.320 was interested to yours because everyone was terrified after clean 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:53.200 Take one point zero and they're like, oh god, no, 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:57.920 don't want to go there. Fast forward to today, everybody, No, 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.600 I'm not being disparaging to marine, but SAFF is the 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.880 sexy fuel. Everybody's talking about saf We love marine and 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.560 we're working on marine as well, but everybody comes to 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:10.600 us wanting to talk about SAFF. And so sustainable aviation 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:15.040 fuel has had the most incredible rise in attention that 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:17.960 we've ever seen. But I think we still have a 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.560 problem in that we're still looking at one sort of 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.359 silver bullet hope, one solution. 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:25.959 And. 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.080 To the point of finding the right pathway, there are 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:34.439 lots of right pathways and so today, unfortunately, there are 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:37.280 still sort of focuses, either from the investor community or 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:41.160 from a policy standpoint, that we're really focusing on single 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:44.439 solutions when there are no single solutions. There are lots 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:48.680 of solutions, And there is a slight realization coming now 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:51.839 because you're having these broader discussions going, hey, it's not 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:53.599 just fisher trops technology. 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:54.640 There's alcohol to jet. 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:58.119 Yes, Heifer's probably king right now, but that will transition 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.480 as more pathways sort of scale up. So it's really 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.520 interesting to see that there is more interest in fuels today, 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:07.839 but there's still this kind of focus on trying to 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:09.800 find a winner, and if we do. 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.760 That, we're all going to lose. That's really interesting that 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:14.559 you bring up sort of cleantech one point zero. I 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:17.400 started out my career in biofuels early two thousands, and yeah, 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.200 there was this huge amount of interesting time time straight 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:23.040 down shortly after that. So a lot of people got burned, 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.840 and that reverberated for quite a while. Let's stay on 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:29.240 this pathway discussion a bit, because I understand that, as 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.120 you say, there's many different pathways, many of them are viable. 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:34.199 But at the same time, you've got to put a 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.040 stake in the ground and you have to do something, 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.440 and you have to get investors on board. And so 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:41.920 how do you manage that tension between saying, yeah, there's 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:43.720 these different pathways and there's lots of different things we 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:47.479 can do with we have to do something now, Laura. 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.599 I mean, maybe I don't think this is a controversial 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:55.120 statement to say, I don't think there are maybe rephrase, 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:55.840 there aren't. 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:56.480 That many end states. 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:58.400 The end state has to be e fuels, and the 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.760 simple reason is fussiled and decarbonize and bifuels are in 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.440 short supply, right, so we can talk about the pathways 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.640 and whether it's energy or biofuels. But in my personal, 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:12.400 completely unbiased opinion, they're all just really faffing around. 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:13.320 Because the end of to day it has to be 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:13.800 e fuels. 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:15.160 That's the only way you get the scale on the 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:20.840 decarbonization you need, right and so you know, two percent decarbonization, 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:23.880 six percent here or there. Really what we need to 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:25.640 focus on is how do we get the e fuels 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.280 up and running as quickly as possible. And my view 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.400 on that is there's really two things. One is, of course, 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:33.640 we need the demand signals. We need the off takers. 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.200 You know, as Frey has said, it's already happening in 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:38.319 saf and you can sort of see the explosion in 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:40.240 terms of the investment pouring into that sector. 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:41.680 In marine. 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:44.440 I mean bluntly, it will happen because the fuely you 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:49.520 maritime legislation is already incredibly incentivizing for ethuels. I know 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:51.600 this sounds ridiculous. People have not done the matter yet. 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:53.160 When they do the math and they figured out how 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.000 to actually put that into contracts, that will incent ethuels. 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:58.000 One of the issues I think though, in the e 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.839 fuel space is that often the developers are approaching it 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:05.720 the wrong way. So when we started the business, i'd 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:07.199 sort of I mean just by way of careers, so 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:09.640 I'd done a lot of stuff in finance, banking, pe 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:11.760 hedge fund. I then spent most of my career in 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.680 the commodities industry, and I was sick of commodities because 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:16.680 all we were doing for ten years was five percent 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.440 cost reduction, doing the same thing that we've been doing, 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:20.280 and it just got boring. 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:21.480 So I went to Google and I was like, I'm 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.120 done with this. I'm going to go and sell advertising. 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.120 But I guess the learning from my journey is if 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.880 you want to win in the commodity space, the only 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:30.640 thing that matters is where you are on the cost 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.480 curve and do you have scale. And so we actually 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:35.760 didn't necessarily come at this from how do we get 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.400 a green hydrogen productup and running. I knew nothing about hydrogen. 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:40.640 We just came at this and thought, how do you 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:44.559 produce e fuels in the absolute cheapest way? And really, 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.280 all you know the way you do things cheaply in 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:50.280 commodities you find the cheapest feed dark or the best resource. 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:52.520 And so I think one of the challenges has been 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:54.440 much of the innovation in the space has happened in 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.720 places that are not particularly cost effective to produce e fuels, 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:00.880 So you know, it's an amazing pioneering work. For example, 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.400 that it's not particularly a sunny or windy place. And 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.000 so I think, you know, as Chris has sort of said, 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:10.040 the regions now where people are focusing the US, Egypt, 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:13.120 these are much more cost effective places to produce the fuels, 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:14.800 and I think that will actually help us get some 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:15.320 more traction. 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:17.199 I'm going to come back to the cost curve part, 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.000 but Chris, do you want to weigh in on that, 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:21.320 On that same question of sort of tension between pathways 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:22.200 and doing something now. 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:24.280 The first thing to say is I fully agree with 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.640 what Freyer said. There isn't a silver bullet out here, 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.360 you know, and it is a transition for the industry. 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:32.160 I mean, it takes shipping. It has been one fuel 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.880 for most of those years until I was involved putting 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:37.960 energy in the ships in my shoulders ten. 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:40.800 Twelve years ago. But before that there really wasn't a 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:41.440 fuel choice. 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.240 It was fuel, and I think we're now in a 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:47.160 world where there are multiple fuels that will go into 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:51.840 whether it's pathways, into aviation, or whether it is into 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:52.760 the marine sector. 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.440 But you know, I think for companies. 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.720 Such as ourselves, yeah, the focus is important whilst we 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:00.720 have options and we you know, I would say it's 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:03.160 pathways for us on the methanol into two different sort 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.280 of markets, which is a good set of options to have. 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.000 But you know, we have some options. Our project in 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:14.120 Egypt is around e methanol by going through gasification, you 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:16.480 actually have some options because of the imbalance of the 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.920 carbon dioxide and the hydrogen and the sincastream. So we 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.880 sequestraight biogenic carbon and generate BEX or we can add 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:28.960 green hydrogen into that to create a combination of biomethanol 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.400 and emethanol. So we have some options. So we do 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:36.160 have some options on the pathways there. But I think 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.640 this cost point is we've got absolutely clear that we've 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.200 got to hit the right cost points for the customers. 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.400 You know, lots of people say it's all down to subsidies. Well, 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:48.560 it's a lot easier to have those conversations if you're 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.800 at the right cost point on the cost curve, and 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.000 so we've been very very focused on that, on meeting 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.680 the customers needs. We're not pushing a technology. We're not 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.640 pushing a location. We're we're trying to. 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.200 Find the roots which actually solve for the customer's needs. 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:06.320 Yeah, and I mean, Freya, let's talk a bit about 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:10.720 Lends of Jet and what for the people who are 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.960 not aware Alcohol to jet technology plants up and running 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:21.120 and invest taken on external investment as well. Tell us 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.920 a bit about that journey in building that up, because 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:27.120 you've been at Lens of Tech since the beginning and 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.200 that's a more recent part of the business sort of 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:30.880 spun out. How has that gone. 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:36.600 Yeah, so you know, we spun out Lands of Jet 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.640 in twenty twenty, probably the worst time to spin out 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:46.120 an aviation furel company, but we structured it with a 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:51.840 sort of an interesting investment opportunity for the investors to 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:55.800 sort of invest in early and then we build the 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:57.720 demo and then there'd be a sort of cash call 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.120 so we could move forward in a faster way. We 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.320 can really show how we can accelerate the scale up 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:07.680 of the Alcoulta jet process. But again it comes down 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:11.200 to the off takes, the long term agreements, but also 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:15.800 the environment that you're producing the fuel in. So to 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:18.960 Lara's point on the you know, having policies that can 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.480 create incentives. You know, the US is an attractive location 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:25.879 for SAFF producers with the blenders tax credit. You know, 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:30.240 provisions made in the IRA for certain carbon utilization technologies 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:32.920 still not given as much money as ccs, but that's 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.480 a different discussion. You know, these are the things that 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:40.680 support that kind of scale up. So you know, sadly, 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:43.720 you know, I'm talking to you in a week where 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:48.359 we're getting the second massive hurricane hitting that part of 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:52.520 the US and the area where our facility has been 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:56.800 hit really badly by Helene over the last couple of weeks, 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:00.280 and so there's a lot of cleanup and devas station 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.760 in the community. So our focus right now is not 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:07.000 on the operating of the facility but just you know, 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:09.800 getting the community back on its feet. But you know, 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.719 I know we don't often talk about climate change. You know, 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.479 in these environments we're all we all know what's going on. 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:17.879 But I mean, this is if we look at it 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.840 from an energy transition perspective, and this is another massive 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.080 climate event. And if any of you saw the pictures 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.000 from the space station last night, I mean it looked 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:29.480 like the beginning of a disaster. Movie, you know, but 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.479 it's real and it's happening, and it's impacting not just 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:36.960 lives and communities, but also the technologies that are building 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:38.280 the energy transition. 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:40.960 You know, first time i'd really. 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:45.600 Learned about the courts, mining and the Appalachians, which is 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:49.200 so important for chips, you know. So we've got to 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:52.239 think about the broader picture, not just how we're going 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:55.720 to meet our targets, because I mean, that ship's almost 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:59.320 sailed for the industry, but how we're going to stop 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:03.840 these massively devastating events happening again and again. 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:06.760 It's a good reminder that none of this stuff is abstract. 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.280 It's getting very, very real, and as John our CEO 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:12.560 said in the opener yesterday, we're sort of midway through 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:14.880 this decisive decade and some of this stuff really has 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.040 to pick up quickly. I want to just stay for 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:22.480 a second on corporate structure. Because Chris owned your C 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:24.880 two X, owned by am A. Miller is the largest 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:28.119 shareholder lands of jet spun out. 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:28.720 What what what? 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:32.360 What were the advantages and what was the decision process 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:36.359 in treating those as separate entities rather than just keeping 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:37.679 them as part of the parent. 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:43.360 Happy to take it I think it's it's one of focus, 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:48.520 skill set and a breadth of customer base. You know, 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:51.639 I think we've I probably would say this, but I 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:55.320 think we've got a good balance. We call that support 0:19:55.320 --> 0:20:00.640 from a very strong corporate and a customer but we've 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:04.320 you know, separately, we're building up a capability and we're 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:07.600 focused and I think Mark has been a very innovative 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.639 company over the years. The parent Apemal Holdings are major parent. 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.720 You're supporting a lot of growth projects in different businesses. 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:19.480 They announced last week, you know, a method of green 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:21.280 methano or to plastics. 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:21.800 Business for example. 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:24.399 So we've got that support and we've got that commitment 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.880 to the transition there. But we've got that focus and 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:31.280 the ability to operate more entrepreneurially, much more as a 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.200 sort of startup type theme, but with a slight sort 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:37.639