1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: the BNF podcast, and today we bring you a recording 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 1: from our summit in London, which took place on the 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: eighth and ninth of October. The panel featured on today's 5 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: show is titled Cleaning Up Heavy Transport. So while electrification 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: has been well established in other parts of the transport 7 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: sector like passenger vehicles, there are some limits to how 8 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: far the technology can reach, and heavy transport is one 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: of the tougher ones for it to decarbonize. Cleaning up aviation, 10 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: maritime shipping, and long haul trucking will likely require clean 11 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: fuels like biofuels, resulting in sustainable aviation fuels or saff 12 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: for short or ammonia methanol and synthetic fuels. This variety 13 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: of options gives us a lot of pathways to a 14 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: lower carbon heavy transport sector, but it's also with its 15 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: own challenges, including elevated prices and some confusion among investors 16 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: as they struggle to understand exactly which technologies they should 17 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: be putting their money behind. So with all of this 18 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: to consider, the panelists you'll hear from on this recording 19 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: explore which clean fuels are currently seeing the greatest uptake 20 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: and whether existing government policy is extensive enough and clear 21 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: enough to support growth in the sector. They also discuss 22 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: what feedback they have been receiving from investors, and this 23 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 1: results in some suggestions on how to stimulate growth across 24 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: the wider sector. You'll hear from Freya Burton, chief sustainability 25 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 1: Officer at Lanztech, Chris Johnson, chief commercial officer at C 26 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: two X, and Lara Nashquinbondi, chief executive officer at ET Fuels. 27 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: The panel was moderated by Colin mccherricer Bloomberg, nef's head 28 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: of Transport and Energy Storage. For more information regarding BNF's summits, 29 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: including our upcoming BNF Summit taking place in Shanghai on 30 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: the third and fourth of December, and to view recordings 31 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: from this and other events in the past, head to 32 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: about dot BNF dot com forward Slash Summit. Now let's 33 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: hear from our panel on cleaning up heavy trains and 34 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: sport from the BNF Summit, London. 35 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: We've heard a little bit about clean fuels and shipping 36 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 2: in aviation throughout the session so far, but we're going 37 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 2: to get a little further into it right now, and 38 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 2: just to kind of set the scene. Right now, both 39 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: shipping and aviation are around two and a half percent 40 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: of global CEO two emissions, but that share is set 41 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 2: to rise, depending on the forecast to use maybe double 42 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: over the next ten or twenty years. Right now, aviation 43 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: uses about ninety three billion gallons of jet fuel a year, 44 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: and three hundred and twenty million of that is saf 45 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: so less than zero point five percent. On the shipping side, 46 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 2: eighty four billion gallons of marine fuel used and for 47 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: low carbon fuels, and that's being a bit generous with 48 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: the definitions. It's about one hundred and thirty million gallons, 49 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 2: so less than zero point two percent. So a lot 50 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 2: of work to do, but luckily there's a lot of 51 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: people on the case. So I want to ask, as 52 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: a sort of opener to each of you, where you're 53 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 2: seeing the most activity, interest uptake on the clean fuel side. 54 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 2: So Laura will start with you. 55 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: Sure, well, it feels like a kind of funny time. 56 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 3: So by way of background, we co founded ety fuel's 57 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 3: green fuels developer a couple of years ago, and I 58 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 3: remember when we did that, there was this huge buzz 59 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 3: around hydrogen you know, we like to say that we 60 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 3: co founded the company the day that Merce could come 61 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 3: out with this big announcement, And there were all these 62 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 3: projects and it was just this really exciting, optimistic time 63 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 3: in the hydrogen space. And I think sort of two 64 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 3: and a half years on, i'm much aged. But beyond that, 65 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 3: I think on the supply side, you've seen a real shakeout. 66 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 3: So you know, we as a developer would often get 67 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 3: other developers coming to us saying, do you want to 68 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 3: partner up or co invest or whatever. And I'd look 69 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 3: at the projects and you'd see that someone maybe done 70 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 3: an engineering study, or they got an option over a 71 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 3: field that happened to be a bit sunny, but the. 72 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 4: Projects were not robust. 73 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 3: You know, the feedstock hadn't been secured, maybe the engineering 74 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 3: hadn't been done at all, the TRL of the technology 75 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 3: was a bit dodgy. But there was just this huge 76 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 3: hype that was kind of providing this wave to all 77 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 3: these on the supply side. And I think what you're 78 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 3: seeing now is two years on, maybe people have got 79 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 3: a bit of seed funding, but that's run out, and 80 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 3: so you're really just seeing a bit of the wheat 81 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 3: separating from the chaff on the supply side. On the 82 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 3: demand side, it's also quite different. So obviously we're targeting 83 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 3: the marine sector and a lot of discussion around, you know, 84 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 3: demand signals, is anyone going to buy the fuel. The 85 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 3: conversations that we're having, though are really also quite different 86 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 3: to where they were two years ago. So whereas two 87 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 3: years ago people were talking about, you know, I want 88 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 3: to buy my green fuels, and the way I'll price 89 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 3: them will be here's how much I play for a 90 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 3: heavy fuel oil, and then I'll pay a bit for EUETS, 91 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 3: and then I'll pay for debucks more just to be 92 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 3: a good citizen. Right now, the conversations are either one 93 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 3: of two one type of conversation with that let's just 94 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 3: call them less sophisticated or less resource shipping companies. Is 95 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 3: I'm dealing with the eu ETS, I'm being told it's 96 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 3: leg it's biofuels, it's e methanol, it's ammonia. I have 97 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 3: no idea what's going on, and quite frankly, it doesn't matter. 98 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 3: I'll wait until twenty thirty somebody will figure out nuclear fusion. 99 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 3: I'll be fine, and anyway, I'll just pass the whole 100 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 3: thing onto my end customer. It's the one size fits 101 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 3: or tax. We'll all deal with it together. The more 102 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,679 Speaker 3: sophisticated are doing a few things, so they are running 103 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 3: the maths on fuel EU, which is bloody complicated regulation 104 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 3: but actually does some amazing things to incentivize e fuels. 105 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 4: So they're running the mass on that. 106 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 3: They are waiting for IMO, and they are looking, at 107 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 3: least in our space around this shortage of fuel supply 108 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 3: where some people have done the maths on the lack 109 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 3: of biofuels have not, and they are thinking about how 110 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: they're going to secure their supply. But everyone's still kind 111 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 3: of waiting because we haven't quite got there yet on IMO. 112 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 4: So it's kind of a funny time. 113 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 2: So those are quite big shifts on both the supply 114 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 2: and demand picture. Chris, does that kind of line up 115 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 2: with what you're seeing. 116 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 5: I think there's a consistency of you there. But first 117 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 5: of all, thank you for the opportunity to be here, 118 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 5: particularly as a very young company. 119 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 6: We might be a young company. 120 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 5: C two x our roots and is a company with 121 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 5: one hundred and twenty year history, and that's mrsk On 122 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 5: the shipping company. 123 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 6: You know. 124 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 5: Interestingly, we heard yesterday afternoon and one of the panels 125 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 5: you're talking about, you know, a lot of it is 126 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 5: driven by supply. We're very much as a company. It 127 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 5: came from the demand musk. We're making the commitments to 128 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 5: to green methanol container vessels and needed to assure that 129 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 5: the supply was in place. And you know we were 130 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 5: spun out about a year ago is away per by 131 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 5: ap Mala Holdings and twenty percent now a ap mil 132 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 5: a MRSK. But being driven actually by a customer on 133 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 5: setting this up. It meant we were coming in at 134 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 5: this technology agnostic. So you know, there's a lot of 135 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 5: work being done over the last year or two to 136 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 5: try and think through the most competitive pathways to producing 137 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 5: green methanol. And I think for me that's really where 138 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 5: the interest is in particular, you know, Lara's describing the 139 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 5: more sophisticated customers who are really beginning to understand this 140 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 5: is we need to demonstrate we can be competitive, and 141 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 5: we're driven by one of our chahlders is very focused 142 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 5: on that this is a highly competitive industry. Someone was 143 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 5: saying to me yesterday pointing out they're harder to debate 144 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 5: sexors are those with some of the thinnest margins and 145 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 5: the customers are very sensitive and authorship shift a container 146 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 5: from one shipping line to another if those rates change, 147 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 5: so they're very cost focus. So we had to make 148 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 5: sure we were building the most competitive pathways. So that's 149 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 5: what we're getting in our interests is by demonstrating that 150 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 5: we do have those pathways. Now we've gone down a 151 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 5: route initially, we've we've got three projects Egypt, Spain, but 152 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 5: our focus at the moment is on us and looking 153 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 5: at the gasification of biomass, which we see as being 154 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 5: one of the best pathways. It's a well proven technology 155 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 5: in other services and we are now seeing some of 156 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 5: the cost space to produce methanol that way. Now, the 157 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 5: interesting thing is we look at it. We've gone for methanol. 158 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 5: It is driven by shipping and that's where a lot 159 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 5: of the conversation is today. But methanol has a big advantage. 160 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 5: It is a pathway whether it's into the chemical sectors, 161 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 5: and we do expect it in a similar way for 162 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 5: sort of landstect to play into the sustainable aviation fuels 163 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 5: on the methanol to jet in a later stage. But 164 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 5: the conversation as well, we're having this, how do you 165 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 5: get these projects off the ground? How do you get 166 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 5: these commitments of the ground, Because all of these projects 167 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 5: depend on long term commitments. 168 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 6: So a lot of our conversation on where's the right right. 169 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 5: Price point to actually make those commitments, which is going 170 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 5: to get those projects off the ground and get those 171 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 5: products off the ground at scale because scale is going 172 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 5: to be important to keep in those costloads. There's a 173 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 5: real sort of tension here to actually to originate those projects. 174 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 2: So yeah, even when you feel like you've identified the 175 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: right pathway, that that's only the start of the journey, 176 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 2: and it's a start, yeah for it. I want to 177 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: come to you on that. What are you seeing right now? 178 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 7: Well, I think one of the things too, I'm sort 179 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 7: of reflecting back what it was like sort of ten 180 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 7: plus years ago and what it's like today. And I 181 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 7: think back to some events where they were investors coming 182 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 7: to see technology producers and we literally had to bribe 183 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 7: people to come into the room who were doing fuels 184 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 7: because everyone wanted to talk about solar and wind. Nobody 185 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 7: was interested to yours because everyone was terrified after clean 186 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 7: Take one point zero and they're like, oh god, no, 187 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 7: don't want to go there. Fast forward to today, everybody, No, 188 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 7: I'm not being disparaging to marine, but SAFF is the 189 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 7: sexy fuel. Everybody's talking about saf We love marine and 190 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 7: we're working on marine as well, but everybody comes to 191 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 7: us wanting to talk about SAFF. And so sustainable aviation 192 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 7: fuel has had the most incredible rise in attention that 193 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 7: we've ever seen. But I think we still have a 194 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 7: problem in that we're still looking at one sort of 195 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,359 Speaker 7: silver bullet hope, one solution. 196 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 2: And. 197 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 7: To the point of finding the right pathway, there are 198 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 7: lots of right pathways and so today, unfortunately, there are 199 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 7: still sort of focuses, either from the investor community or 200 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 7: from a policy standpoint, that we're really focusing on single 201 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 7: solutions when there are no single solutions. There are lots 202 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 7: of solutions, And there is a slight realization coming now 203 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 7: because you're having these broader discussions going, hey, it's not 204 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:53,599 Speaker 7: just fisher trops technology. 205 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 6: There's alcohol to jet. 206 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,119 Speaker 7: Yes, Heifer's probably king right now, but that will transition 207 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 7: as more pathways sort of scale up. So it's really 208 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 7: interesting to see that there is more interest in fuels today, 209 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 7: but there's still this kind of focus on trying to 210 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 7: find a winner, and if we do. 211 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 2: That, we're all going to lose. That's really interesting that 212 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 2: you bring up sort of cleantech one point zero. I 213 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: started out my career in biofuels early two thousands, and yeah, 214 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 2: there was this huge amount of interesting time time straight 215 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: down shortly after that. So a lot of people got burned, 216 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 2: and that reverberated for quite a while. Let's stay on 217 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 2: this pathway discussion a bit, because I understand that, as 218 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 2: you say, there's many different pathways, many of them are viable. 219 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 2: But at the same time, you've got to put a 220 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 2: stake in the ground and you have to do something, 221 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 2: and you have to get investors on board. And so 222 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: how do you manage that tension between saying, yeah, there's 223 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 2: these different pathways and there's lots of different things we 224 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,479 Speaker 2: can do with we have to do something now, Laura. 225 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,599 Speaker 3: I mean, maybe I don't think this is a controversial 226 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 3: statement to say, I don't think there are maybe rephrase, 227 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 3: there aren't. 228 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 4: That many end states. 229 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 3: The end state has to be e fuels, and the 230 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 3: simple reason is fussiled and decarbonize and bifuels are in 231 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 3: short supply, right, so we can talk about the pathways 232 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 3: and whether it's energy or biofuels. But in my personal, 233 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 3: completely unbiased opinion, they're all just really faffing around. 234 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 4: Because the end of to day it has to be 235 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 4: e fuels. 236 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 3: That's the only way you get the scale on the 237 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 3: decarbonization you need, right and so you know, two percent decarbonization, 238 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 3: six percent here or there. Really what we need to 239 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 3: focus on is how do we get the e fuels 240 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 3: up and running as quickly as possible. And my view 241 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 3: on that is there's really two things. One is, of course, 242 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 3: we need the demand signals. We need the off takers. 243 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 3: You know, as Frey has said, it's already happening in 244 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 3: saf and you can sort of see the explosion in 245 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 3: terms of the investment pouring into that sector. 246 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 4: In marine. 247 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 3: I mean bluntly, it will happen because the fuely you 248 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 3: maritime legislation is already incredibly incentivizing for ethuels. I know 249 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 3: this sounds ridiculous. People have not done the matter yet. 250 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 3: When they do the math and they figured out how 251 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 3: to actually put that into contracts, that will incent ethuels. 252 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 3: One of the issues I think though, in the e 253 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,839 Speaker 3: fuel space is that often the developers are approaching it 254 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 3: the wrong way. So when we started the business, i'd 255 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 3: sort of I mean just by way of careers, so 256 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 3: I'd done a lot of stuff in finance, banking, pe 257 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 3: hedge fund. I then spent most of my career in 258 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 3: the commodities industry, and I was sick of commodities because 259 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 3: all we were doing for ten years was five percent 260 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 3: cost reduction, doing the same thing that we've been doing, 261 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 3: and it just got boring. 262 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 4: So I went to Google and I was like, I'm 263 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 4: done with this. I'm going to go and sell advertising. 264 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 3: But I guess the learning from my journey is if 265 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 3: you want to win in the commodity space, the only 266 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 3: thing that matters is where you are on the cost 267 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 3: curve and do you have scale. And so we actually 268 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 3: didn't necessarily come at this from how do we get 269 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 3: a green hydrogen productup and running. I knew nothing about hydrogen. 270 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 3: We just came at this and thought, how do you 271 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 3: produce e fuels in the absolute cheapest way? And really, 272 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 3: all you know the way you do things cheaply in 273 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 3: commodities you find the cheapest feed dark or the best resource. 274 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 3: And so I think one of the challenges has been 275 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 3: much of the innovation in the space has happened in 276 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 3: places that are not particularly cost effective to produce e fuels, 277 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 3: So you know, it's an amazing pioneering work. For example, 278 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 3: that it's not particularly a sunny or windy place. And 279 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 3: so I think, you know, as Chris has sort of said, 280 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 3: the regions now where people are focusing the US, Egypt, 281 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 3: these are much more cost effective places to produce the fuels, 282 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 3: and I think that will actually help us get some 283 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 3: more traction. 284 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 2: I'm going to come back to the cost curve part, 285 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 2: but Chris, do you want to weigh in on that, 286 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: On that same question of sort of tension between pathways 287 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: and doing something now. 288 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 5: The first thing to say is I fully agree with 289 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 5: what Freyer said. There isn't a silver bullet out here, 290 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 5: you know, and it is a transition for the industry. 291 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 5: I mean, it takes shipping. It has been one fuel 292 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 5: for most of those years until I was involved putting 293 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 5: energy in the ships in my shoulders ten. 294 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 6: Twelve years ago. But before that there really wasn't a 295 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 6: fuel choice. 296 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 5: It was fuel, and I think we're now in a 297 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 5: world where there are multiple fuels that will go into 298 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 5: whether it's pathways, into aviation, or whether it is into 299 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 5: the marine sector. 300 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 6: But you know, I think for companies. 301 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 5: Such as ourselves, yeah, the focus is important whilst we 302 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 5: have options and we you know, I would say it's 303 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 5: pathways for us on the methanol into two different sort 304 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 5: of markets, which is a good set of options to have. 305 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 5: But you know, we have some options. Our project in 306 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 5: Egypt is around e methanol by going through gasification, you 307 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 5: actually have some options because of the imbalance of the 308 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 5: carbon dioxide and the hydrogen and the sincastream. So we 309 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 5: sequestraight biogenic carbon and generate BEX or we can add 310 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 5: green hydrogen into that to create a combination of biomethanol 311 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 5: and emethanol. So we have some options. So we do 312 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 5: have some options on the pathways there. But I think 313 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 5: this cost point is we've got absolutely clear that we've 314 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 5: got to hit the right cost points for the customers. 315 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 5: You know, lots of people say it's all down to subsidies. Well, 316 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 5: it's a lot easier to have those conversations if you're 317 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 5: at the right cost point on the cost curve, and 318 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 5: so we've been very very focused on that, on meeting 319 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 5: the customers needs. We're not pushing a technology. We're not 320 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 5: pushing a location. We're we're trying to. 321 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 6: Find the roots which actually solve for the customer's needs. 322 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean, Freya, let's talk a bit about 323 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 2: Lends of Jet and what for the people who are 324 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: not aware Alcohol to jet technology plants up and running 325 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 2: and invest taken on external investment as well. Tell us 326 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: a bit about that journey in building that up, because 327 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 2: you've been at Lens of Tech since the beginning and 328 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 2: that's a more recent part of the business sort of 329 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 2: spun out. How has that gone. 330 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 7: Yeah, so you know, we spun out Lands of Jet 331 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 7: in twenty twenty, probably the worst time to spin out 332 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 7: an aviation furel company, but we structured it with a 333 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 7: sort of an interesting investment opportunity for the investors to 334 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 7: sort of invest in early and then we build the 335 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 7: demo and then there'd be a sort of cash call 336 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 7: so we could move forward in a faster way. We 337 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 7: can really show how we can accelerate the scale up 338 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 7: of the Alcoulta jet process. But again it comes down 339 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 7: to the off takes, the long term agreements, but also 340 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 7: the environment that you're producing the fuel in. So to 341 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 7: Lara's point on the you know, having policies that can 342 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 7: create incentives. You know, the US is an attractive location 343 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 7: for SAFF producers with the blenders tax credit. You know, 344 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 7: provisions made in the IRA for certain carbon utilization technologies 345 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 7: still not given as much money as ccs, but that's 346 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 7: a different discussion. You know, these are the things that 347 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 7: support that kind of scale up. So you know, sadly, 348 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 7: you know, I'm talking to you in a week where 349 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 7: we're getting the second massive hurricane hitting that part of 350 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 7: the US and the area where our facility has been 351 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 7: hit really badly by Helene over the last couple of weeks, 352 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 7: and so there's a lot of cleanup and devas station 353 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 7: in the community. So our focus right now is not 354 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 7: on the operating of the facility but just you know, 355 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 7: getting the community back on its feet. But you know, 356 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,719 Speaker 7: I know we don't often talk about climate change. You know, 357 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,479 Speaker 7: in these environments we're all we all know what's going on. 358 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 7: But I mean, this is if we look at it 359 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 7: from an energy transition perspective, and this is another massive 360 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 7: climate event. And if any of you saw the pictures 361 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 7: from the space station last night, I mean it looked 362 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 7: like the beginning of a disaster. Movie, you know, but 363 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,479 Speaker 7: it's real and it's happening, and it's impacting not just 364 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 7: lives and communities, but also the technologies that are building 365 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 7: the energy transition. 366 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 4: You know, first time i'd really. 367 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 7: Learned about the courts, mining and the Appalachians, which is 368 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 7: so important for chips, you know. So we've got to 369 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,239 Speaker 7: think about the broader picture, not just how we're going 370 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 7: to meet our targets, because I mean, that ship's almost 371 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 7: sailed for the industry, but how we're going to stop 372 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 7: these massively devastating events happening again and again. 373 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 2: It's a good reminder that none of this stuff is abstract. 374 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 2: It's getting very, very real, and as John our CEO 375 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 2: said in the opener yesterday, we're sort of midway through 376 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 2: this decisive decade and some of this stuff really has 377 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 2: to pick up quickly. I want to just stay for 378 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 2: a second on corporate structure. Because Chris owned your C 379 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 2: two X, owned by am A. Miller is the largest 380 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 2: shareholder lands of jet spun out. 381 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 4: What what what? 382 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,360 Speaker 2: What were the advantages and what was the decision process 383 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 2: in treating those as separate entities rather than just keeping 384 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 2: them as part of the parent. 385 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 5: Happy to take it I think it's it's one of focus, 386 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 5: skill set and a breadth of customer base. You know, 387 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 5: I think we've I probably would say this, but I 388 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 5: think we've got a good balance. We call that support 389 00:19:55,320 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 5: from a very strong corporate and a customer but we've 390 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 5: you know, separately, we're building up a capability and we're 391 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 5: focused and I think Mark has been a very innovative 392 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 5: company over the years. The parent Apemal Holdings are major parent. 393 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 5: You're supporting a lot of growth projects in different businesses. 394 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 5: They announced last week, you know, a method of green 395 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 5: methano or to plastics. 396 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 6: Business for example. 397 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 5: So we've got that support and we've got that commitment 398 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 5: to the transition there. But we've got that focus and 399 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 5: the ability to operate more entrepreneurially, much more as a 400 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 5: sort of startup type theme, but with a slight sort 401 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 5: of corporate overpinning and support. So there's a balance there 402 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 5: to I think bring in some of that capability and 403 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 5: we may work with other investors over time as you 404 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 5: know as well. And we're not just focused you know 405 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 5: now on sort of one customer. We've broadened our base. 406 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 5: We're thinking about those other pathways, other marine customers, other 407 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 5: sectorial customers and beginning to think, you know, longer term 408 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 5: and you know, methanol to jet a different alcohol to jet. 409 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 2: And for any other comment on just the decision to 410 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: make that a separate spine. 411 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 7: Echoing Chris's thoughts on the skills side, I mean, Lansa 412 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 7: Jet was really focused on the aviation sector and while 413 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 7: we've got a great team with sort of history of 414 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 7: working in the space, we really wanted to hire into 415 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 7: this entity, you know, the skills to scale it. And 416 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 7: you know, Lanser Tech is building facilities around the world 417 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 7: to get the feedstock. So in our case alcohol ethanol, 418 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 7: you know, a low cost as I said, is you know, 419 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 7: got to have a low cost feedstock, especially for something 420 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 7: like jet fuel. And you know we're focused on that side. 421 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 7: So Lansa Jet is focused on that second part, the 422 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 7: conversion from the ethanol to the jet fuel. And again 423 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 7: the attracting investment into bad entity. And we were talking backstage. 424 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 7: I mean Chris was actually involved back in the day 425 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 7: in its shell days, as we're part of one of 426 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 7: those investors Interjet. It's one big happy family in this space. 427 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 2: Lo's of crossover. Laura, I want to you mentioned sort 428 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 2: of the lower cost and your commodity background coming in 429 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 2: and just being like that is the critical thing when 430 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 2: you look at coming back to this pathways question, sometimes 431 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 2: when we've looked at the economics of some of the 432 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: things for both shipping and aviation, there's also this question 433 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 2: of whether some sort of book and credit system with 434 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 2: VEX or CCS or director capture might be more competitive 435 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 2: in the long term than the fuels. I don't know 436 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 2: what's your what's your view on that. 437 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 3: I guess yeah, I mean there's a lot of space 438 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 3: between now and the long term, right, and I mean 439 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 3: I'm hoping to be retired in the long term, So 440 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 3: I guess the way I see it, right is there's 441 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 3: actually a disconnect between what people think they need to 442 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 3: do now. I want to say people the shipping industry 443 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 3: does go with that what they think they need to 444 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 3: do now, what they actually need to do in the 445 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 3: relatively short term. 446 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 4: Maybe to talk to that. 447 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 3: So, you know, I don't know if Chris would agree, 448 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 3: but I get the sense that most whether it's aviation 449 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 3: or marine, what they're doing now is kind of let's 450 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 3: do some stuff that looks good, doesn't cost us too much, 451 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 3: and we'll deal with this by twenty thirty five. Reality 452 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 3: is they kind of need to act by twenty thirty 453 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 3: to meet their targets. 454 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 4: And I'll talk about that in a second. 455 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 3: Now, if you're in a world in twenty thirty where 456 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 3: you've got six percent, you know, in marine you've got 457 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 3: a six percent carbon intensity reduction target in twenty thirty, 458 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 3: you cannot do that with energy because you basically have 459 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 3: to replace out half of your half of your fleet 460 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 3: almost to do that. You can't do that with bi fuels, 461 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 3: and I'll talk about why, and so you have to 462 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 3: do that with V fuels E fuels projects take I 463 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 3: think the panelist said, or any guy said three to 464 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 3: five years. 465 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 4: It's not three to five years, it's six years. 466 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 3: Six She has minimum in Texas, which is one of 467 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 3: the best places in the world to do business. And 468 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 3: so what that means is if you want to secure 469 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 3: your supply in twenty thirty, you have. 470 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 4: To be acting now. 471 00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 3: And most in the shipping industry are not drawing those 472 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 3: dots together and maybe to sort of put some numbers 473 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 3: to that, right. So one of the things I that 474 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 3: I the shipping industry loves to do is to talk 475 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 3: about the flavor of the month. You know, people wake 476 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 3: up and there's a new podcast and now we're all 477 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 3: doing LNG. And then you wake up next month and 478 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 3: it's biofuels is where the future? 479 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 4: And then you know ammonia. 480 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 3: And the reality is when you look at the landscape, 481 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 3: ammonia is not ready for twenty thirty. If shipping was 482 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 3: to meet it's IMO targets for twenty thirty using biofuels, 483 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 3: the numbers are just baffling, right, So you'd have to 484 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 3: go from a world where shipping today uses about zero 485 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 3: point two zero point three percent of the. 486 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 4: World's global biofuels to. 487 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 3: Meet the low end of what the im I was 488 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 3: talking about by twenty thirty, you'd have to see that 489 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 3: go from about zero point two zero point three percent 490 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 3: to sixty percent of the world's global biofuels. I mean, 491 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 3: you guys have the data, so you know that right 492 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 3: that is never going to happen. And then, like I said, 493 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 3: with LNG again, you do the mass. You look at 494 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 3: the data to decarbonize an entire fleet by six percent, 495 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 3: Each LG gives you fifteen percent. So you do the 496 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 3: mask and you're like, okay, how do I get six 497 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 3: percent if I've got a fleet of one hundred ships, 498 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 3: fifteen percent, you've got to move forty of those ships 499 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 3: onto LNG. 500 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 6: It's huge. 501 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 4: And that's by twenty thirty. 502 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 3: So I think this point around what are we're doing 503 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 3: in you know, twenty fifteen net zero is great, but 504 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 3: the industry is going to have some real penalties to 505 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 3: pay in twenty thirty. And the other bit that I 506 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,239 Speaker 3: think people aren't realizing is, at least you know, in 507 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 3: the in the maritime space, the legislation is not one 508 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 3: size fits all. The legislation incentivizes first movers and penalizes 509 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 3: those who are late. So my expectation is that by 510 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 3: twenty thirty you'll see real disruption in terms of the 511 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 3: haves who have prepared and the have nots who have not. 512 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 3: And you know, I think what we do in twenty 513 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 3: fifty is kind of it's kind of neither here nor there. 514 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 4: We have to do stuff now. 515 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, this gets the sort of challenge between decision windows 516 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 2: and impact windows and long asset lives in these sector sectors. Chris, 517 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 2: what do you think of that kind of same topic 518 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 2: around book and credit versus implementing things now, yeah, that's there. 519 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 5: I think it comes back a little bit to sort 520 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 5: of Forez, but there isn't one pathway, so I think 521 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 5: offsets will play a role. And I've certainly heard the 522 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 5: same conversations about the aviation sector. I mean interestingly, as 523 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 5: a project we can generate some of those high quality 524 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 5: technical credits. But I think Lara's point on lee time 525 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 5: is a really important thing. And we just talk about 526 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 5: L and G, but I was involved when do we 527 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 5: started twenty twelve twenty thirteen on the shel days of 528 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 5: putting LERG into ships, And there's a whole lot of 529 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 5: chickens and eggs running around, the eggs not running around, 530 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 5: the chickens running. 531 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 6: Around and. 532 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 5: Or what comes first. And as a company, Shell could 533 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 5: take that decision. It invested in break bonk facilities and 534 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 5: in Rotterdam and a bunker barge, but it had the 535 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 5: LNG portfolio to stand behind that and deliver that, and 536 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 5: it took a number of years for that to really 537 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 5: take off. And if it hadn't been for those first moves, 538 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 5: we wouldn't probably be talking about Ellergy in the shipping sector. 539 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 5: So this this sleetime is important. It is important. On 540 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 5: the facilities, it is a minimum probably of six years 541 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,959 Speaker 5: to get project off the ground, possibly longer, and it 542 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 5: is and is a challenge for our customers on the 543 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 5: shipping side as well to make the decisions. It's a 544 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 5: it's a big bit of whether you go down to 545 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 5: ammonia ship, do we commit on an energy ship? Is 546 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 5: the energy ship method already? What's is the engine technology there, 547 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 5: the bunkering facilities, you're there. So there's a lot of 548 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 5: things which actually have to come together to make this work. 549 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 6: So credits may bridge some of this. 550 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 5: It's probably it's not going to be the silver bullet, 551 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 5: like anything else is not going to be the silver bullet, 552 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 5: but this timeline is important. We are almost too late 553 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 5: for twenty thirty now. 554 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like similar similar views to what Laura 555 00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 2: was saying. For any thoughts on the same topic. 556 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 7: Well, I mean credit only to take you so far. 557 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 7: I mean, you've got there's so much fuel to replace, 558 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 7: and I know we're just talking about fuels, but let's 559 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 7: you know, there's chemicals that need to be replaced as well. 560 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 7: So you know, if we're looking at we actually need 561 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 7: to make the transition and keep fossil in the ground. 562 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 7: That's you know, the key part of the transition. We 563 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 7: need to start making stuff. You know, we can't just 564 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 7: make it go away by buying a credit. There's a 565 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 7: place for credits and quality offsets, and that's a whole 566 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 7: nother discussion. But we actually need fuels, we need chemicals, 567 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 7: and we need them to be done in a different 568 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 7: way to the way they're done today. 569 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 2: I want to shift yours have been and ask there's 570 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 2: a lot of investors in the room, and I want 571 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 2: to ask what you're hearing each of you is hearing 572 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 2: from investors when you're when you're pitching right now, you 573 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 2: spend time in front of investors and you're pitching projects 574 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 2: or or raising rounds. What are you hearing and kind 575 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 2: of how has that changed over the last few years. 576 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 2: You hinted at the beginning about how it's a world 577 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 2: of difference versus five years being five years ago being 578 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 2: in a back room somewhere that no one wanted to 579 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 2: come to, versus now. But maybe we'll start here, Laura, 580 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 2: and then work our way down around what you're hearing 581 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 2: from investment. 582 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 7: Yeah. 583 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 3: I mean so, I've often wondered if there was a 584 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 3: way to go long emethanol without having to do this 585 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 3: job like how would I do it something that's just 586 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 3: a bit less hiring. And I think I've sat on 587 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 3: the other side most of my life where I've had 588 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 3: the checkbook and given it out, And I think the 589 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 3: thing that's interesting on the investment side is this. So 590 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 3: what Freya said about SAF being the sexy thing, right, 591 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 3: that is absolutely where investors' mindsets her up right, And 592 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 3: so I'm sure Chris doing the same. Right, We're all 593 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 3: talking a great game on methanol to jet. It's not 594 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 3: even a STM certified. It will be, and that's all fine, 595 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 3: But the reality is people want to go into the 596 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 3: SAFA space and the reason is they look at the 597 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 3: headline on the regulation and they say, oh, there's quotas 598 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 3: for ethuels in SAF there's real penalties, whereas Marinia you 599 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 3: haven't got actual quotas for ethiels. Most of them, like 600 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 3: ninety nine at nine percent, have not actually looked at 601 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 3: the marine legislation and done the back calculation, which is 602 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 3: that you cannot meet twenty thirty targets where there are 603 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 3: punitive penalties, you cannot meet those without a substantive portion 604 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 3: of e fields. So this whole thing about SAF having 605 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 3: binding quotas. I think it's a bit of a meme, 606 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 3: but that's kind of where the investment community is at. 607 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 3: The Second thing, and this, I think is more of 608 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 3: a valid point, is investors are saying, unless you've got 609 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 3: a revenue line, what kind of a business are you? 610 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 3: And I think there's been a lot of kind of 611 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 3: you know, a lot of sort of lack of robust 612 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 3: projects in the pipeline that didn't actually have the feedstock 613 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 3: or you know, a good cost model, and so that's 614 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 3: kind of clouded the whole space and people are shying 615 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 3: away and saying, I can't really assess which of these 616 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 3: projects is actually good from a sort of project development perspective. 617 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 3: There is no revenue line because the shipping companies aren't 618 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 3: signing long term off take and so I'm just going 619 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 3: to stay out of space until someone figures it out. 620 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 3: And I think the challenge on the off take side 621 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 3: is I joke about this with some of my old 622 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,479 Speaker 3: colleagues who still have, you know, stable jobs at Rio Tinto. 623 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:13,959 Speaker 3: One of the jobs I used to have was I 624 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 3: was in charge of setting the procurement policy and risk 625 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 3: management for our freight and and our bunker. And I 626 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 3: would literally spend all of my days telling people not 627 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 3: to take positions no fixed prices. We've got to retain 628 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 3: our exposure in line with the market. And the real 629 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 3: challenge is the risk exposure for these procurement teams has 630 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 3: fundamentally changed and they haven't adapted their procurement strategies to 631 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 3: deal with that. And so until we sort of see 632 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 3: all of the regulation play into procurement strategies, the investment 633 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 3: community won't move. 634 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 2: Chris any thoughts on that. On the same question about 635 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: investors and how that conversation is changing. 636 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 5: I think, I mean, it does come down to some 637 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 5: of the fundamentals. Who's the customer, who's underwriting in the 638 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 5: long term contracts, on the revenue SAR, the feedstock, the 639 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 5: quality of the project execution, where you sit on the 640 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 5: cost curve is really important. And all of these things, 641 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 5: by the way, are not mutually exclusive. Of course, the 642 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 5: quality of the teams and the capabilities and the experience 643 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 5: of the teams is very important. But the other thing 644 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 5: I would add, and it plays into this pathways point, 645 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 5: is focus is focus on what you need to deliver. 646 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 5: Getting that first project off the ground is really important. 647 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 5: You know, you may have growth you know, you need 648 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 5: to demonstrate you've got a view on growth, but you 649 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 5: don't get that right to growth unless you deliver those 650 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 5: first projects and take the time to set those up appropriately. 651 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 5: But once you're there and you get some of the 652 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 5: support there, that offers a platform of growth. And I 653 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 5: think the other piece that you know, I've seen this 654 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 5: because I've sort of also been involved here over the 655 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 5: last years and advising some funds on investments, is a 656 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 5: focus on your what is the support are you really 657 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 5: capturing some of those supports to just get over this 658 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 5: sort of critical phase to get those contracts in at 659 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 5: the right price points and get the projects off the 660 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 5: ground and to get those fundamentals. 661 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 2: There and free. I mean, you've seen this go from 662 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 2: the full arc of early days at Landstech to now 663 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 2: many years on with a very different stage of the 664 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 2: commercial process. Where how have those conversations changed, particularly in 665 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 2: the last two or three years. 666 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 7: Well, I mean, I think you know, echo what the 667 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 7: others said. You know, making money very important, but how 668 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 7: do you know, if we backtrack, how do you make money. 669 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 7: You've got to have off takes, You've got to be 670 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 7: able to sell it at the right price and what's 671 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,959 Speaker 7: that dependent on. So just looking at the staff space, 672 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 7: that's dependent on unfortunately policy, And I don't mean that 673 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 7: you want to have a technology that's dependent on incentives 674 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 7: and handouts. 675 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 4: You don't want that. 676 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 7: But you want to be able to sell your product 677 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 7: at least, so you want to have a market that 678 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 7: is going to help you know, the market environment where 679 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 7: you can sell your staff or whatever type of fuel 680 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 7: you have. And up until now that hasn't really existed. 681 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 7: It's been incredibly unstable because of the sort of tumultuous 682 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 7: time of biofuels excuse me one point zero. And then 683 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 7: with SAFF in the UK, which is interestingly one of 684 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 7: the more progressive countries in terms of their staff SAFF legislation, 685 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 7: you know, investors were waiting to see what would happen 686 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 7: with this so called revenue certainty mechanism, you know, in 687 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 7: a SAFF mandate. And this has only just been sort 688 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 7: of buttoned up in the last couple of months, so 689 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 7: there was this incredible uncertainty. And looking at European legislation, 690 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,879 Speaker 7: I mean, I've been working on one policy in renewable 691 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 7: energy for ten plus years, and what kind of investor 692 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 7: is supposed to you know, be forthcoming. When policy is 693 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 7: unstable and there's no clarity and the Commission is still 694 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 7: putting out sort of FAQs about the policy frameworks because 695 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 7: nobody really understands what it means or it's too vague, 696 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 7: and until these things are kind of clear, investors are 697 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 7: always going to have a challenge in knowing where to 698 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 7: put their money. But luckily, in the saf space, a 699 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 7: lot of that has you know, moved forward, but that 700 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 7: is still a problem and it all comes down to 701 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 7: how much money you're going to make. I mean it's 702 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 7: pretty it's a pretty straightforward answer, but also the other 703 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 7: things that what they're looking for. 704 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 2: To on that policy runt. I mean, there's a lot 705 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,919 Speaker 2: of policy makers in the room. Is there any any 706 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 2: of you have some requests you'd like to air to them? 707 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 2: Grievances as well, if you'd like speed. 708 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 4: Yeah. 709 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 3: I mean I think policy makers and investors always get 710 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 3: a bashing. You know, people complain that the regulation is 711 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 3: not clear, the regulation has not been finalized. I mean 712 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 3: the regulation will never be finalized by definition, right, I 713 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 3: mean regulation evolved. 714 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 4: I actually think the regulator is well done. 715 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,439 Speaker 3: Regulators, I think it's done a really good job today 716 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 3: at least in Europe. And if the IMO, even on 717 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 3: the low end of the targets, if the IMO comes 718 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 3: out where people are talking about. 719 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 4: Them coming out, that will be a real win. 720 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 3: So I actually don't think the issue is necessarily policy makers. 721 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 3: I think the issue is as fair I said, sometimes 722 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 3: people actually have to understand what that policy means, and 723 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 3: you know, help sheets and all that stuff, and the 724 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 3: regulation is complicated, and I think if I sort of 725 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,800 Speaker 3: had a, you know, an ask for policymakers, I would say, 726 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 3: we all know e fuels is going to be the 727 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:25,839 Speaker 3: end state. 728 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 4: I mean, we can talk. 729 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 3: About multi fuel pathways together, that's fine, but you know, 730 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 3: really e fuels is the only way, as I've talked about, 731 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 3: that you can decarbonize at scale. And so what I 732 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 3: think would be incredibly helpful, and we've seen it in 733 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 3: Staff as a great case study, is to have specific 734 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,479 Speaker 3: parts of the policy that very clearly call out ethuels. Now, 735 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,240 Speaker 3: we can get to the same place by having absolute 736 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 3: emission and reduction targets that don't specify a pathway, but 737 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 3: from an investor interpretation point of view, having those really 738 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 3: clear signals, it's just night and day in terms of 739 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 3: being able to move money into the sector. 740 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 4: So that would be that'd be my ask. 741 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 5: A Decho frays point on time and times not on 742 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 5: our side from a transition. But I do keep a 743 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,839 Speaker 5: degree of optimism here. You know, I think we saw 744 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 5: some positive moves, you know, on the IMO when they 745 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 5: were meeting two weeks ago here in London. But I 746 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 5: keep some optimism. You know, there was a reason you 747 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,399 Speaker 5: started talking about elergy and hipping. It wasn't actually really 748 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,399 Speaker 5: decarbonization ten twelve years ago. 749 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 6: It was about emissions. 750 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 5: It was about socks, it was about Knox, and it 751 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 5: came because of the emission controller is the echos. And 752 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 5: this was IMO legislation which has brought change, whether it's 753 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,399 Speaker 5: scrub as loads, sulfur fuels, et cetera. So you do 754 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 5: see some of this come and when it comes, you 755 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 5: get that change and furely you is actually an example 756 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 5: of this is as Laras talks about. So I yes, 757 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 5: it takes some time, but actually when it comes, it 758 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 5: does lead to change. So I do keep some degree 759 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 5: of optimism here. But the things that can support just 760 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 5: getting over this first hurdle are also. 761 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 2: Important as well for any other final requests for policymakers, ease, Yes. 762 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 7: Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. I mean, yes, 763 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,479 Speaker 7: end state Great, we've got to get there, or else 764 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,879 Speaker 7: we're totally screwed, and so speed things up. 765 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 4: Let's move forward. 766 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 7: And you know, using a sporting analogy, we don't just 767 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 7: need the home runs to win. You need the singles 768 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 7: and doubles. So you know, that's what's important on the 769 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 7: policy side, to let things sort of move forward. 770 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 2: Okay, I've got one more question. I'm going to ask 771 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,919 Speaker 2: just to quickly hopefully end on a bit more forward 772 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 2: looking note. If you were to sort of look back, 773 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 2: we're ten years into the future. What was obvious about 774 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 2: clean fuels that isn't obvious now? So any sort of 775 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 2: bold prediction you'd like to make there about what we're 776 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 2: going to think was obvious but isn't now. 777 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 3: I don't think it's particularly bold, but I will I'll 778 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:55,919 Speaker 3: put it out there. 779 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 4: I think. 780 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 3: I think people are underestimate how differentiating this legislation. I'd 781 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 3: say this being all of the decarbonization type legislation, is 782 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 3: going to be on customers. 783 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:10,919 Speaker 4: And what I mean by that is. 784 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 3: We are entering a world where there are now U 785 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,919 Speaker 3: risk exposures. It's not just how much do I pay 786 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:18,479 Speaker 3: for my energy? And can I get the same energy 787 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 3: price as everybody else? It is now, do I have 788 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,879 Speaker 3: access to that energy that is going to also give 789 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,359 Speaker 3: me decarbonization? Do I have security of supply on that 790 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 3: for more than just six months? And do I have 791 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 3: a good visibility on the chain of custoder as to 792 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 3: where that energy has come from? And I think those 793 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,839 Speaker 3: are all things that are not relevant today but will 794 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 3: become such differentiators for whether it's shipping or aviation or 795 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,919 Speaker 3: anyone else who has a punitive decarbonization target to meet. 796 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 3: And I think when we roll forward to twenty thirty, 797 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 3: which is for a lot of these sectors, the next 798 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 3: kind of step up, we're going to see that play up. 799 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 4: And I think a lot of companies. 800 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 3: Will wake up not having prepared and be completely stung 801 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,240 Speaker 3: by that, and others will be sitting there basically raking 802 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 3: in and actually making you have a lot of money 803 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,720 Speaker 3: out of decarbonization because they started early for that reason, 804 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 3: as opposed to because they tried to do it to 805 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:10,840 Speaker 3: be good citizens. 806 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 2: So very differentiated out comes. 807 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 5: Chris quickly over, I think I'm going to keep it simple. 808 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:16,240 Speaker 5: I wish we'd started sooner. 809 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 7: YEPA, we underestimated how much hydrogen we needed. 810 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 2: Laura Chris Freya, thank you very much for sharing your 811 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 2: expertise with us. I have a feeling this is a 812 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 2: topic that we're going to continue to talk about more 813 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 2: and more at our summits in the future. So to 814 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 2: all of you, please join me in thanking our panelisties. 815 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray 816 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,320 Speaker 1: with production assistance from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg ne EF is 817 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: a service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. 818 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,240 Speaker 1: This recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed 819 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: as investment and vice investment recon or a recommendation as 820 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 1: to an investment or other strategy. 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